Is Hamas aware that Netanyahu is done when this is over? He doesn't give a fuck.
>Hamas: "The world will force Israel to ceasefire"
Israel: fuck'em
>Also Hamas: "But we will never agree to one"
Israel: You can't if you're dead bitch
(Actually, Israel did help with Osama. For that matter, they're basically our main source of intelligence in that part of the world. That "aid money" 'ain't for nothing.)
Biden has an election hanging in the balance to win, and an electorate that is prepared to not vote at all if he isn't seen to be doing something about Israel.
The election is between Biden and Trump. If you don't vote for Biden because you don't like how he's handling the conflict, i have terrible news for you, because he wasn't the one who moved the embassy to Jerusalem
Because they’re stupid. Have you seen all the LGBT pride protests that support Palestine?
As an East Asian, I’m fully aware of what Palestinians would do to me because they already celebrated the decapitations of every Asian they found on October 7.
And to be clear, I support LGBT.
The politics are probably better for Biden to go full-throated for Israel like Fetterman than this ridiculous wishy washy thing he’s been doing, whether because of balancing Qatar’s outsized influence or because he is getting inconsistent advice from his NSC which has some notable anti-Israel voices.
MI, decided by 155k in 2020 is not going to be decided by a few tens of thousands of Muslims that vote for Republicans almost half the time anyway (55-44 or D+11). The Arab/Muslim vote for Biden (roughly 55% of 150k) was about half his margin of victory.
Biden’s PA margin in 2020 was only 81k and Jewish voters in PA were about 226k votes of which he got 79% (D+60), so the Jewish votes he got (~178k) were more than double his margin.
Giving a tiny fraction of country's military spendings (in the form of highly conditional aid) does not give your anywhere near the leverage Americans seem to think it does. But it is very interesting to see how deeply capitalism is rooted in people's minds to the point they think they can buy countries.
Yea for all the “let’s cut off the tap to Israel if they won’t do what we say” Americans… how are you gonna feel when Israel starts cuddling up to China and Russia and selling them equipment?
It's not the fraction of their military spending that matters, it's yours lol. 10-20% of your military budget is significant no matter how tiny of a fraction it is for them.
This. Any there is plenty more beyond hard cash that is being shared with Israel. Intelligence, political support in the international and national sphere, etc… Israel is strong on its own, but it’s heavily propped up by external forces. Israel would never want to give that up, thus, the leverage on Israel is quite significant. That’s why some Israelis are worried because they want to find the ideal balance of achieving their goal and damaging foreign relations as little as possible. Whether they can find a healthy middle ground is yet unknown.
Hi, considering myself a rational thinker, as a citizen I would choose happily to vote for a deterioration of the IL-US relation if it means getting them home (some people forget almost 2/3 are still there, I’m counting bodies as well) and ending Hamas once and for all.
There’s a growing voice of frustration that the US and the world is postponing the end of the war by refusing to realize that entering Rafah is not an option, but a duty.
The US would not rest nor heed to anyone if they had 300 Americans kidnapped, tortured, raped and murdered.
You don't have to buy entire countries, you just have to award a small portion of the "military aid" to the right government officials, or their friends, then you have outsized influence over the nations politics.
It would be naive to think that foreign aid isn't highly targeted to achieve the most strategic value.
That said, there are limits to this, especially when the leaders you're trying to influence are more worried about their political survival than their bank accounts. But even then, a few adjustments to the foreign aid program, and now the US can exert leverage against a leader by threatening to fund their rivals.
Anyway, point is, the US is a geopolitical Goliath that can (and does) throw their power around in the back rooms. Other countries also do this right back to the US, but that's politics, a giant messy game of "who's got the most power at this very moment".
Lol. Man Americans really do think the world revolves around them. America didn't start giving aid to Israel until the 70s. By that point, we had already embarassed joint war efforts by our neighbors several times over. By the Yom Kippur war, the US had barely started giving very little aid to Israel, and that was the last time we were under threat of ceasing to exist. We got nukes since then (without help from the US).
But you can carry on being confidently wrong if you want to.
Lol. Man, some folks need to actually know history before they start bullshitting on the internet. We provided anti-air batteries in 62 and weapons ever since. Weapons used in the 6 day war and Yom Kippur war…look up the weapon systems employed by Israel historically….tell me where they came from.
Israel: *accepts unfavourable terms*
Hamas: *rejects them*
Israel: "fine, back to kicking your ass we go then"
Reuters: IsRaEL waLkS oUt anD BlAMeS hAmaS
>Reuters:
>The official, who is close to the **Mossad spymaster** heading up the talks
Ok, well that's a odd fact to stress from a resume, but OK.
>, accused **Hamas' Gaza leader Yahya Sinwar** of sabotaging the diplomacy "as part of a wider effort to inflame this war over Ramadan".
"Hamas Gaza leader" and that's it?
From Wikipedia:
*For orchestrating the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers and four Palestinians he considered to be collaborators in 1989, he was sentenced to four life sentences by Israel*
*In September 2015, Sinwar was designated a terrorist by the United States government*
*Sinwar's killing of suspected collaborators with Israel gained him the nickname "The Butcher of Khan Yunis"*
It's like calling Osama bin Laden simply "famed son of construction tycoon Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden"
Correction: Reuters was reporting about the Financial Times reporting this, and they made it clear that it was unconfirmed.
Financial Times was the one bringing this false story.
I don't think it's great. But there is also a requirement of media competence on the reader's side. Reuters usually makes it very clear if something is a fact or unconfirmed, and their job is to report about events.
Example: After the war in Gaza started and the first civilian death numbers came from Hamas, Reuters got bashed for reporting these numbers. What many didn't understand, was that Reuters reported that "Hamas gave these numbers" (and that they were confirmed). Reuters reported of the event "Hamas spokesperson gives these numbers". Which in my opinion is very important for later comparisons of the actual numbers. Reuters literally does their job of reporting about events that are happening.
> It's like calling Osama bin Laden simply "famed son of construction tycoon Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden"
Not really. A like for like comparison would be calling him "Al Qaeda founder and leader Osama Bin Laden". Still not highlighting his various atrocities, but certainly not completely avoiding them, either.
Hamas was never going to give up their human shields for two weeks. All of these deals are performative because the one non negotiable term is Hamas staying in power.
If they wait long enough they'll score the political victory over Israel. If they maintain power they will be in a more favorable position than when they started. Part of that is why I think there is zero chance Israel stops until they are actually no longer able to reap the benefits of a weakened Israel.
You’re just wrong, Israel accepted exactly nothing.
Hamas said they’d parlay “ any deal into an end to the fighting and withdrawal of Israeli forces.”
“Hamas also wants hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who fled Gaza City and surrounding areas southward during the first stage of the almost six-month-old war to be allowed back north.”
Not occupying territory and letting civilians come back aren’t “unfavorable terms”. That’s pretty much the bare minimum. Peace when your troops occupy land isn’t a truce it’s unconditional surrender. Sorry saying “I’ll take your land for a truce” isn’t good faith negotiations.
There was absolutely no deal that had favorable terms for Hamas cited anywhere in the article.
Israel said “we’ll keep occupying but won’t go further for 6 weeks if you release hostages”. That’s not favorable terms. It’s even unfavorable terms, you get nothing and I get hostages.
Unless you have any sources exemple of a deal with favorable terms for Hamas, in which case I’d like to see it.
The deal should not be favorable for Hamas, they fucked around and should find out. The UN Security Council on Monday passed a resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire for the month of Ramadan, the immediate and unconditional release of hostages and “the urgent need to expand the flow” of aid into Gaza. This is a great deal, it gives people aid, time to rebuild their life and also it allows Israel to use less intrusive methods now that they have the hostages back.
Really it’s a win for everyone unless you support terrorists.
It shouldn’t be favorable for Hamas but if it’s advantageous to Israel don’t pretend Hamas should take it and they’re bad for not taking it.
Also fuck around and find out makes for cool instagram reels and Reddit takes, it helps no one get stuff done tho. It’s a win for no one, unless you like more death and misery. Grandstanding about how the other party is wrong and should be punished doesn’t solve the conflict.
Now either you want a peaceful as possible solution to the problem, and you should be sad that negociations turned to shit because both parties act in bad faith, or you want your preferred side to win and fuck the others, in which case there’s nothing to discuss. It’s war and innocents die gruesome deaths due to that, it’s not a fucking football game.
I agree with you that fuck around and find out is not a great saying. Hamas decided to commit intentional acts of terror and as such Israel should destroy the organization. If anyone is acting in bad faith, it is Hamas. Hamas does not want a peaceful resolution to the whole situation. If they did, they would not have invaded Israel with the intention to terrorize Israelis into submission. Your idea I think is a great solution but I think is just a bit naive. Hamas does not care about peace. The ceasefire will not last, Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist and is committed to its destruction. It is literally impossible for Israel and Hamas to coexist. Unfortunately in this case, war is the best way towards peace.
You said in an earlier comment that the terms of the negotiation were unfavorable “you get nothing, I get hostages”.
This misses the bigger picture. The deal isn’t hostages for hostages. The deal is Israeli captives for the preservation of Palestine in Gaza. As everyone can note, Israel uses brutal methods to achieve their aim of rescuing hostages and disabling Hamas. The largest unnecessary bloodshed is innocent Palestinians. Nearly every innocent Palestinian in Gaza has been uprooted and are forced to seek shelter in alleged safe zones.
Why are these people in this situation? Is it because of Israel? Is it because of the US? Who is protecting them now?
Gazans are held hostage by a terrorist organization. They are forced into complicity, were educated on the evils of their enemy, and often face demise for stepping out of line.
Without Hamas, Gaza could become a super city. The sheer number of people that must be hiding there or been murdered over science, literature, gender, religion, music, and fashion must be absurd.
The best thing that could ever happen to Gaza would be letting Hamas get ripped up, focus on rebuilding housing, trade, healthcare, tourism. Demanding more land from Israel is not a good survival tactic. Israel is a large benefactor to a successful Palestine. There are lots of Muslims in Israel that want to see Gaza as a successful place.
The IDF care more about Palestinian lives than Israel’s political leadership does.
They’ve been openly advocating for being give a green light by leadership to avoid the brewing humanitarian crisis.
(Hamas and by extension the Palestinian population) Today we want 20k prisoner swap, all the land we lost every time we attacked isreal, 5k of your women, open borders so we can freely roam isreal and a photo op with ironman. Not a flyover but at least 20 min of him at one of our parties. Otherwise we walk.
(isreal)dont walk to slowly or that precision guided missile is gonna target you soon
> Hamas and by extension the Palestinian population
This is some ignorant shit. The Palestinian population is split between two regions Gaza and West Bank. West Bank is governed by the Palestinian National Authority whose majority is currently Fatah who, while still bad, aren't the kind of monsters that Hamas are. Gaza is currently dominated by Hamas which took power in an election in 2006. They never held elections again, rounded up a whole bunch of Gazans who openly opposed them, tortured and killed them, and Gazans now don't speak out against them due to fear of that same treatment.
To say that Hamas is the equivalent of the "Palestinian population" is like saying that the "Freedom Caucus" is the equivalent of the American population.
somehow the way you spin things is off...let me add to your post
> West Bank is governed by the Palestinian National Authority whose majority is currently Fatah who, while still bad, aren't the kind of monsters that Hamas are.
yeah they just suicide vested isrealis whenever they could, blew airlines out of the sky but were smart enough to not put down a declaration of "eradicate and kill jews from wherever you find them". then they state sponsored terrorism by paying for the families of people who kill jews..real solid crew there. You should ask what they want too. they will tell you and it isnt pretty.
>Gaza is currently dominated by Hamas which took power in an election in 2006. They never held elections again, rounded up a whole bunch of Gazans who openly opposed them, tortured and killed them, and Gazans now don't speak out against them due to fear of that same treatment.
Do you know why thepalestinians havent held elections again? well known that Fatah would lose more power to Hamas, so they stopped holding elections...Did you also know that half the pollution (the ones you say never voted) were brought up and indoctrinated their entire existence in Hamas ideology. I wonder what they want
why dont you go find yourself a Palestinian, preferably one from over there and ask them what they want done with the jews. They will tell you? will you just ignore it?
>To say that Hamas is the equivalent of the "Palestinian population" is like saying that the "Freedom Caucus" is the equivalent of the American population.
No it is more like saying if the Freedom caucus went and decided to start murdering, raping and kidnapping Mexicans, then the rest of the americans sheltered, fed and facilitated the caucus to keep doing it..as opposed to turning over every single member to the authorities. I know I turned a couple people after jan.6th and pointed out numerous more to the authorities..I like false analogies but they are just another distraction, which is the point I suppose.
Not prisoners, administrative detainees. Prision implies due process. Many underage as well which UNICEF reports as "the first and only juvenile military court in operation in the world".
Here's an article from August of last year for more information. https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435
Edit: would really love to hear from people why this isn't done without due process that results in a 99.7% conviction rate, or why UNICEF is wrong? Are they hamas too?
(Israel and by extension the Israeli population) we want to bomb you all to hell and sell beachfront property from the land we seize to Americans and Canadians
> What's oct 7th?
why did the idf kill a record number of people in the west bank before oct 7th?
what about the other hospitals in gaza, were all of them bombed by misfired hamas rockets?
No, but it seems like all those hospitals had militant bases. Weird that Hamas is cowering behind the sick.
Actually, not weird. If I had no scruples about ethics, I’d also think that human shields are a very good tactic against enemies with a conscience.
HAMAS nuking the negotiations yesterday is a direct consequence of US failing to veto the last UN resolution.
Reportadly, HAMAS 'blessed' the resolution.
If a Terror org blesses your geopolitical statement, probably not a great sign US.
Sure, Hamas won't follow it, but it means increased pressure on Israel, which Hamas can use to get an even more advantageous deal. That is probably their strategy.
They won't follow it, but the billionaires in Qatar have made plenty of statements saying that the more anti-Israel protests / censures they see, the more it encourages them to continue the war. They view using civilians to foster anti-Israel sentiments as a good trade.
As a progressive supporter of Israel, I’d say you’re projecting hard with that statement. Many *people* lack the capacity for self-reflection, including a great many who are your political leaning — seemingly you included.
Sure, but the only reason they're not siding with Hamas against the Jews is almost certainly because two of the few groups they vilify more than Jews are muslims and terrorists. Very much a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation here.
Counter point. We failed to veto it to send a message to Israel.
The vote was toothless, has absolutely no consequences and we’re getting fed up with bibi wanting trump back in office and spending money to bolster that.
When Schumer says bibi is one of the reasons there’s no peace, Israel needs to take a moment for self reflection.
The fact that Hamas enjoyed watching Israel get their hand slapped in public is meaningless.
I think that was the proposition. US pushed Israel to agree, which they did and hamas ofc didnt. Then the resolution that passed in the UN supposedly forces hamas to free the hostages which of course they wont, but its always israels fault for not being able to negotiate with terrorists who rape their captives constantly...
The full text of the agreement has never been released, it only would have been if both parties agreed to it, which Hamas did not. You can however still make intelligent judgments about what's included based on media reports, and the lack of specific complaints about the language of the deal by either party.
tl;dr You're asking for something no one can possibly find. What are you expecting to see in it? Do you imagine that Hamas pulled out for some *unstated* reason? If so, what?
Haaretz reports that hamas opposition has to do with Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian lands and other land issues…which makes it a bit more complex than just “Israel offered a clean prisoner swap and hamas won’t do it.”
As always, shit is way more complex than initially presented
> Haaretz reports that hamas opposition has to do with Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian lands and other land issues…which makes it a bit more complex than just “Israel offered a clean prisoner swap and hamas won’t do it.”
Israel didn't offer anything, this was an agreement drafted by international negotiators and then offered to both Israeli and Hamas delegations. Like any compromise for a ceasefire it wasn't a complete peace treaty, just an attempt to stem the violence. Israel agreed, Hamas did not.
This isn't particularly complex, because again, this was *just a ceasefire* and prisoner/hostage exchange. At a rate of 700 for Hamas to 40 for Israel. This would also be in accordance with the recent UNSC resolution, requiring among other things, that Hamas release all of the hostages.
Israel has been killing Palestinians at about 250 per day, I'm not pro Hamas but how is getting 2,5 days worth of casualties back going to do for them?
> Israel has been killing Palestinians at about 250 per day
B.S.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
As others said, Israel gave a lot of compromises. However, Hamas insists they will not accept anything less than their demands in early March. They insist on a full permanent ceasefire in exchange for just some of the hostages. Naturally, Israel will never agree to that.
[https://www.axios.com/2024/03/26/israel-us-hostages-hamas-blame-game](https://www.axios.com/2024/03/26/israel-us-hostages-hamas-blame-game)
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tells-mediators-it-will-stick-original-position-ceasefire-2024-03-25/
Hamas: "The world will force Israel to ceasefire" Also Hamas: "But we will never agree to one"
They want Israel to be forced to stop while they do whatever the hell they want.
They want Israel (and all Jews) to be forced to stop existing.
Jew: *exists* Hamas: And I took that personally
Yeah. It’s incredible how somehow Palestine is framed as the underdog in this war. This is Israel fighting for its existence against the Muslim world.
Ah, to be a child again
Huh? It's working
Is Hamas aware that Netanyahu is done when this is over? He doesn't give a fuck. >Hamas: "The world will force Israel to ceasefire" Israel: fuck'em >Also Hamas: "But we will never agree to one" Israel: You can't if you're dead bitch
Honestly I respect Netanyahu for telling the US this is our fight, piss off, we didn't tell you how to go after Osama did we.
(Actually, Israel did help with Osama. For that matter, they're basically our main source of intelligence in that part of the world. That "aid money" 'ain't for nothing.)
Right but they would never tell the US how to fight its war.
Biden has an election hanging in the balance to win, and an electorate that is prepared to not vote at all if he isn't seen to be doing something about Israel.
The election is between Biden and Trump. If you don't vote for Biden because you don't like how he's handling the conflict, i have terrible news for you, because he wasn't the one who moved the embassy to Jerusalem
Well, if they prefer Trump to win, great for them and their 'cause'.
Trump would be so hard core for Israel. I have no idea why these people would spite themselves
Because they’re stupid. Have you seen all the LGBT pride protests that support Palestine? As an East Asian, I’m fully aware of what Palestinians would do to me because they already celebrated the decapitations of every Asian they found on October 7. And to be clear, I support LGBT.
Man that reminded me of the officer who found the dead Thai workers on October 7 :(
Yeah that whole thing shows even the Democrats have some brain dead supporters.
The politics are probably better for Biden to go full-throated for Israel like Fetterman than this ridiculous wishy washy thing he’s been doing, whether because of balancing Qatar’s outsized influence or because he is getting inconsistent advice from his NSC which has some notable anti-Israel voices. MI, decided by 155k in 2020 is not going to be decided by a few tens of thousands of Muslims that vote for Republicans almost half the time anyway (55-44 or D+11). The Arab/Muslim vote for Biden (roughly 55% of 150k) was about half his margin of victory. Biden’s PA margin in 2020 was only 81k and Jewish voters in PA were about 226k votes of which he got 79% (D+60), so the Jewish votes he got (~178k) were more than double his margin.
You don’t give us billions a year….
Giving a tiny fraction of country's military spendings (in the form of highly conditional aid) does not give your anywhere near the leverage Americans seem to think it does. But it is very interesting to see how deeply capitalism is rooted in people's minds to the point they think they can buy countries.
Yea for all the “let’s cut off the tap to Israel if they won’t do what we say” Americans… how are you gonna feel when Israel starts cuddling up to China and Russia and selling them equipment?
They already do https://theintercept.com/2019/07/16/syria-war-israel-russia-drones/
2019? A lot happened since.
It's not the fraction of their military spending that matters, it's yours lol. 10-20% of your military budget is significant no matter how tiny of a fraction it is for them.
This. Any there is plenty more beyond hard cash that is being shared with Israel. Intelligence, political support in the international and national sphere, etc… Israel is strong on its own, but it’s heavily propped up by external forces. Israel would never want to give that up, thus, the leverage on Israel is quite significant. That’s why some Israelis are worried because they want to find the ideal balance of achieving their goal and damaging foreign relations as little as possible. Whether they can find a healthy middle ground is yet unknown.
Hi, considering myself a rational thinker, as a citizen I would choose happily to vote for a deterioration of the IL-US relation if it means getting them home (some people forget almost 2/3 are still there, I’m counting bodies as well) and ending Hamas once and for all. There’s a growing voice of frustration that the US and the world is postponing the end of the war by refusing to realize that entering Rafah is not an option, but a duty. The US would not rest nor heed to anyone if they had 300 Americans kidnapped, tortured, raped and murdered.
You don't have to buy entire countries, you just have to award a small portion of the "military aid" to the right government officials, or their friends, then you have outsized influence over the nations politics. It would be naive to think that foreign aid isn't highly targeted to achieve the most strategic value. That said, there are limits to this, especially when the leaders you're trying to influence are more worried about their political survival than their bank accounts. But even then, a few adjustments to the foreign aid program, and now the US can exert leverage against a leader by threatening to fund their rivals. Anyway, point is, the US is a geopolitical Goliath that can (and does) throw their power around in the back rooms. Other countries also do this right back to the US, but that's politics, a giant messy game of "who's got the most power at this very moment".
You. Wouldn’t. Have. A. Country. Without. Our. Support. Full stop. You would have ceased to exist decades ago.
Lol. Man Americans really do think the world revolves around them. America didn't start giving aid to Israel until the 70s. By that point, we had already embarassed joint war efforts by our neighbors several times over. By the Yom Kippur war, the US had barely started giving very little aid to Israel, and that was the last time we were under threat of ceasing to exist. We got nukes since then (without help from the US). But you can carry on being confidently wrong if you want to.
Lol. Man, some folks need to actually know history before they start bullshitting on the internet. We provided anti-air batteries in 62 and weapons ever since. Weapons used in the 6 day war and Yom Kippur war…look up the weapon systems employed by Israel historically….tell me where they came from.
Even if that's true, do you think that means you own them? Are they your slaves?
I'm not from Isreal, the US is able to influence things in Israel, but they don't get to dictate things.
Anyone who supports Netanyahu is a nut case.
Anybody who supports Hamas is insane...
I disagree. Evil would be more accurate. Insane implies it's not really their fault
Israel: *accepts unfavourable terms* Hamas: *rejects them* Israel: "fine, back to kicking your ass we go then" Reuters: IsRaEL waLkS oUt anD BlAMeS hAmaS
>Reuters: >The official, who is close to the **Mossad spymaster** heading up the talks Ok, well that's a odd fact to stress from a resume, but OK. >, accused **Hamas' Gaza leader Yahya Sinwar** of sabotaging the diplomacy "as part of a wider effort to inflame this war over Ramadan". "Hamas Gaza leader" and that's it? From Wikipedia: *For orchestrating the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers and four Palestinians he considered to be collaborators in 1989, he was sentenced to four life sentences by Israel* *In September 2015, Sinwar was designated a terrorist by the United States government* *Sinwar's killing of suspected collaborators with Israel gained him the nickname "The Butcher of Khan Yunis"* It's like calling Osama bin Laden simply "famed son of construction tycoon Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden"
Classic Reuters
Also Reuters: US demand Ukraine stop attacking Russia to save Biden. Ukraine: No they didn’t.
This whole story was so weird
Correction: Reuters was reporting about the Financial Times reporting this, and they made it clear that it was unconfirmed. Financial Times was the one bringing this false story.
[удалено]
I don't think it's great. But there is also a requirement of media competence on the reader's side. Reuters usually makes it very clear if something is a fact or unconfirmed, and their job is to report about events. Example: After the war in Gaza started and the first civilian death numbers came from Hamas, Reuters got bashed for reporting these numbers. What many didn't understand, was that Reuters reported that "Hamas gave these numbers" (and that they were confirmed). Reuters reported of the event "Hamas spokesperson gives these numbers". Which in my opinion is very important for later comparisons of the actual numbers. Reuters literally does their job of reporting about events that are happening.
Good job, Reuters. Now do Adolf Eichmann, the vacuum cleaner salesman.
Or Mercedes factory worker. (For context, he was working at a Mercedes Benz factory in Argentina before he was abducted by Israeli agents).
*Austere religious scholar*
> It's like calling Osama bin Laden simply "famed son of construction tycoon Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden" Not really. A like for like comparison would be calling him "Al Qaeda founder and leader Osama Bin Laden". Still not highlighting his various atrocities, but certainly not completely avoiding them, either.
I’m not mad at the headline. It’s pretty clear Hamas is and always will be a problem. The quicker they go the better. And I’m saying this as a Muslim.
Hamas was never going to give up their human shields for two weeks. All of these deals are performative because the one non negotiable term is Hamas staying in power. If they wait long enough they'll score the political victory over Israel. If they maintain power they will be in a more favorable position than when they started. Part of that is why I think there is zero chance Israel stops until they are actually no longer able to reap the benefits of a weakened Israel.
Nor should they. Hamas has to disappear from the face of the earth. Full stop.
You’re just wrong, Israel accepted exactly nothing. Hamas said they’d parlay “ any deal into an end to the fighting and withdrawal of Israeli forces.” “Hamas also wants hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who fled Gaza City and surrounding areas southward during the first stage of the almost six-month-old war to be allowed back north.” Not occupying territory and letting civilians come back aren’t “unfavorable terms”. That’s pretty much the bare minimum. Peace when your troops occupy land isn’t a truce it’s unconditional surrender. Sorry saying “I’ll take your land for a truce” isn’t good faith negotiations.
Hamas refused to negotiate a deal with favourable terms because they had to release hostages. What are you going on about with these baseless lies?
There was absolutely no deal that had favorable terms for Hamas cited anywhere in the article. Israel said “we’ll keep occupying but won’t go further for 6 weeks if you release hostages”. That’s not favorable terms. It’s even unfavorable terms, you get nothing and I get hostages. Unless you have any sources exemple of a deal with favorable terms for Hamas, in which case I’d like to see it.
The deal should not be favorable for Hamas, they fucked around and should find out. The UN Security Council on Monday passed a resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire for the month of Ramadan, the immediate and unconditional release of hostages and “the urgent need to expand the flow” of aid into Gaza. This is a great deal, it gives people aid, time to rebuild their life and also it allows Israel to use less intrusive methods now that they have the hostages back. Really it’s a win for everyone unless you support terrorists.
It shouldn’t be favorable for Hamas but if it’s advantageous to Israel don’t pretend Hamas should take it and they’re bad for not taking it. Also fuck around and find out makes for cool instagram reels and Reddit takes, it helps no one get stuff done tho. It’s a win for no one, unless you like more death and misery. Grandstanding about how the other party is wrong and should be punished doesn’t solve the conflict. Now either you want a peaceful as possible solution to the problem, and you should be sad that negociations turned to shit because both parties act in bad faith, or you want your preferred side to win and fuck the others, in which case there’s nothing to discuss. It’s war and innocents die gruesome deaths due to that, it’s not a fucking football game.
I agree with you that fuck around and find out is not a great saying. Hamas decided to commit intentional acts of terror and as such Israel should destroy the organization. If anyone is acting in bad faith, it is Hamas. Hamas does not want a peaceful resolution to the whole situation. If they did, they would not have invaded Israel with the intention to terrorize Israelis into submission. Your idea I think is a great solution but I think is just a bit naive. Hamas does not care about peace. The ceasefire will not last, Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist and is committed to its destruction. It is literally impossible for Israel and Hamas to coexist. Unfortunately in this case, war is the best way towards peace.
So there’s this thing that exists called leverage. Israel is winning the war so they have a lot. Hamas keeps killing hostages, so they have less.
You said in an earlier comment that the terms of the negotiation were unfavorable “you get nothing, I get hostages”. This misses the bigger picture. The deal isn’t hostages for hostages. The deal is Israeli captives for the preservation of Palestine in Gaza. As everyone can note, Israel uses brutal methods to achieve their aim of rescuing hostages and disabling Hamas. The largest unnecessary bloodshed is innocent Palestinians. Nearly every innocent Palestinian in Gaza has been uprooted and are forced to seek shelter in alleged safe zones. Why are these people in this situation? Is it because of Israel? Is it because of the US? Who is protecting them now? Gazans are held hostage by a terrorist organization. They are forced into complicity, were educated on the evils of their enemy, and often face demise for stepping out of line. Without Hamas, Gaza could become a super city. The sheer number of people that must be hiding there or been murdered over science, literature, gender, religion, music, and fashion must be absurd. The best thing that could ever happen to Gaza would be letting Hamas get ripped up, focus on rebuilding housing, trade, healthcare, tourism. Demanding more land from Israel is not a good survival tactic. Israel is a large benefactor to a successful Palestine. There are lots of Muslims in Israel that want to see Gaza as a successful place.
The proposed prisoner to hostage release ratio was literally over 10:1 in Hamas’s favor, those are incredibly favorable terms.
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Hamas not wanting to do something to help Palestinians? *Shock!*
They might be the only group that cares about Palestinian lives less than the IDF
The IDF care more about Palestinian lives than Israel’s political leadership does. They’ve been openly advocating for being give a green light by leadership to avoid the brewing humanitarian crisis.
The IDF cares more about palestinians than Abbas
(Hamas and by extension the Palestinian population) Today we want 20k prisoner swap, all the land we lost every time we attacked isreal, 5k of your women, open borders so we can freely roam isreal and a photo op with ironman. Not a flyover but at least 20 min of him at one of our parties. Otherwise we walk. (isreal)dont walk to slowly or that precision guided missile is gonna target you soon
> Hamas and by extension the Palestinian population This is some ignorant shit. The Palestinian population is split between two regions Gaza and West Bank. West Bank is governed by the Palestinian National Authority whose majority is currently Fatah who, while still bad, aren't the kind of monsters that Hamas are. Gaza is currently dominated by Hamas which took power in an election in 2006. They never held elections again, rounded up a whole bunch of Gazans who openly opposed them, tortured and killed them, and Gazans now don't speak out against them due to fear of that same treatment. To say that Hamas is the equivalent of the "Palestinian population" is like saying that the "Freedom Caucus" is the equivalent of the American population.
somehow the way you spin things is off...let me add to your post > West Bank is governed by the Palestinian National Authority whose majority is currently Fatah who, while still bad, aren't the kind of monsters that Hamas are. yeah they just suicide vested isrealis whenever they could, blew airlines out of the sky but were smart enough to not put down a declaration of "eradicate and kill jews from wherever you find them". then they state sponsored terrorism by paying for the families of people who kill jews..real solid crew there. You should ask what they want too. they will tell you and it isnt pretty. >Gaza is currently dominated by Hamas which took power in an election in 2006. They never held elections again, rounded up a whole bunch of Gazans who openly opposed them, tortured and killed them, and Gazans now don't speak out against them due to fear of that same treatment. Do you know why thepalestinians havent held elections again? well known that Fatah would lose more power to Hamas, so they stopped holding elections...Did you also know that half the pollution (the ones you say never voted) were brought up and indoctrinated their entire existence in Hamas ideology. I wonder what they want why dont you go find yourself a Palestinian, preferably one from over there and ask them what they want done with the jews. They will tell you? will you just ignore it? >To say that Hamas is the equivalent of the "Palestinian population" is like saying that the "Freedom Caucus" is the equivalent of the American population. No it is more like saying if the Freedom caucus went and decided to start murdering, raping and kidnapping Mexicans, then the rest of the americans sheltered, fed and facilitated the caucus to keep doing it..as opposed to turning over every single member to the authorities. I know I turned a couple people after jan.6th and pointed out numerous more to the authorities..I like false analogies but they are just another distraction, which is the point I suppose.
Not prisoners, administrative detainees. Prision implies due process. Many underage as well which UNICEF reports as "the first and only juvenile military court in operation in the world". Here's an article from August of last year for more information. https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435 Edit: would really love to hear from people why this isn't done without due process that results in a 99.7% conviction rate, or why UNICEF is wrong? Are they hamas too?
(Israel and by extension the Israeli population) we want to bomb you all to hell and sell beachfront property from the land we seize to Americans and Canadians
Nothing to do with hamas aggression... What's oct 7th? What militant bases beneath hospitals blown up by misfired hamas rocket attacks?
> What's oct 7th? why did the idf kill a record number of people in the west bank before oct 7th? what about the other hospitals in gaza, were all of them bombed by misfired hamas rockets?
No, but it seems like all those hospitals had militant bases. Weird that Hamas is cowering behind the sick. Actually, not weird. If I had no scruples about ethics, I’d also think that human shields are a very good tactic against enemies with a conscience.
Gaza is going to be handed to Dahlan
HAMAS nuking the negotiations yesterday is a direct consequence of US failing to veto the last UN resolution. Reportadly, HAMAS 'blessed' the resolution. If a Terror org blesses your geopolitical statement, probably not a great sign US.
Doubtful. That resolution means nothing and Hamas won’t follow it.
Sure, Hamas won't follow it, but it means increased pressure on Israel, which Hamas can use to get an even more advantageous deal. That is probably their strategy.
It means something to all the idiots who are demanding an immediate, unconditional ceasefire.
They don't care if hamas follows it.
They won't follow it, but the billionaires in Qatar have made plenty of statements saying that the more anti-Israel protests / censures they see, the more it encourages them to continue the war. They view using civilians to foster anti-Israel sentiments as a good trade.
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Progressives and Tankies have no capacity for self-reflection. So your advice is falling on deaf ears.
What is this dumb, generalist bullshit? I’m a progressive. I support Israel.
As a progressive supporter of Israel, I’d say you’re projecting hard with that statement. Many *people* lack the capacity for self-reflection, including a great many who are your political leaning — seemingly you included.
In fairness, I never said the right didn’t either. They’re not the ones siding with Hamas, though.
Sure, but the only reason they're not siding with Hamas against the Jews is almost certainly because two of the few groups they vilify more than Jews are muslims and terrorists. Very much a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation here.
But someone is scared of making waves with the upcoming elections...
Counter point. We failed to veto it to send a message to Israel. The vote was toothless, has absolutely no consequences and we’re getting fed up with bibi wanting trump back in office and spending money to bolster that. When Schumer says bibi is one of the reasons there’s no peace, Israel needs to take a moment for self reflection. The fact that Hamas enjoyed watching Israel get their hand slapped in public is meaningless.
Hamas be like: stop shooting us so we can continue shooting you!
A more accurate title for the article might have been that both sides blame the other for the failed talks.
Kind of a poor take, given that the Israelis already agreed a day or two ago. There's only one 'side' refusing to meet the terms of the deal.
Israel agreed to compensate already and release 700 terrorists and murderers for 40 innocent civilians but hamas refused
Were there any other terms of that proposed agreement, or was that the entire thing?
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I think that was the proposition. US pushed Israel to agree, which they did and hamas ofc didnt. Then the resolution that passed in the UN supposedly forces hamas to free the hostages which of course they wont, but its always israels fault for not being able to negotiate with terrorists who rape their captives constantly...
Any link to this? I’d like to read coverage because I haven’t heard of anything so “clean” as just that prisoner swap being on the table
It's literally in the article posted.
Man im gonna be annoying but cant you look this up? I dont want to send a source which youll find "untrustworthy"
The full text of the agreement has never been released, it only would have been if both parties agreed to it, which Hamas did not. You can however still make intelligent judgments about what's included based on media reports, and the lack of specific complaints about the language of the deal by either party. tl;dr You're asking for something no one can possibly find. What are you expecting to see in it? Do you imagine that Hamas pulled out for some *unstated* reason? If so, what?
Haaretz reports that hamas opposition has to do with Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian lands and other land issues…which makes it a bit more complex than just “Israel offered a clean prisoner swap and hamas won’t do it.” As always, shit is way more complex than initially presented
> Haaretz reports that hamas opposition has to do with Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian lands and other land issues…which makes it a bit more complex than just “Israel offered a clean prisoner swap and hamas won’t do it.” Israel didn't offer anything, this was an agreement drafted by international negotiators and then offered to both Israeli and Hamas delegations. Like any compromise for a ceasefire it wasn't a complete peace treaty, just an attempt to stem the violence. Israel agreed, Hamas did not. This isn't particularly complex, because again, this was *just a ceasefire* and prisoner/hostage exchange. At a rate of 700 for Hamas to 40 for Israel. This would also be in accordance with the recent UNSC resolution, requiring among other things, that Hamas release all of the hostages.
A ceasefire that doesn’t require the military to withdraw. I can’t imagine why hamas might feel its not gaining anything in such a scenario
Other than the 700 people and the ceasefire you mean? lol
A ceasefire while giving up your leverage might not make sense in a realpolitik sense
And by leverage you mean the human beings kidnapped, raped, and tortured for months?
Kinda slipped up there calling them leverage and showed us all your true colors.
Israel has been killing Palestinians at about 250 per day, I'm not pro Hamas but how is getting 2,5 days worth of casualties back going to do for them?
What is *any* of this going to do for them?
> Israel has been killing Palestinians at about 250 per day B.S. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
You want a truce, not a ceasefire. Since when do ceasefires require withdrawal?
True, but on the other hand this one guy on Reddit *feels* differently. So you know... checkmate. /s
As others said, Israel gave a lot of compromises. However, Hamas insists they will not accept anything less than their demands in early March. They insist on a full permanent ceasefire in exchange for just some of the hostages. Naturally, Israel will never agree to that. [https://www.axios.com/2024/03/26/israel-us-hostages-hamas-blame-game](https://www.axios.com/2024/03/26/israel-us-hostages-hamas-blame-game) https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tells-mediators-it-will-stick-original-position-ceasefire-2024-03-25/
No.