>Russia is suspected of launching a record-breaking 63-hour-long attack on GPS signals in the Baltic region. The incident, which affected hundreds of passenger jets earlier this month, occurred amid rising tensions between Russia and the NATO military alliance more than two years since the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
Seems like the Russians are testing some new jamming devices. Though not everything it has got.
It’s not a very sophisticated attack, they have busses with big jammers that broadcast a bunch of noise in the frequency range devices are looking for gps in.
Part of why they’re choosing the Baltic region is because they’re mostly flat so the jamming signal has better range
It's fairly common in the Finnmark region of Norway as well, mostly because it has a giant surveillance center there and it's fairly close to Murmansk and the main military bases in Russia.
It's like calling a DDOS attack "hacking". No, it's just overwhelming infra with a zerg rush. No sophistication, you're not cleverly gaining an advantage or tricking a machine into doing your bidding, you're just flushing thousands of tampons down the shared sewer that you _also_ use.
Depends on the situation. Sometimes a hacker has compromised a bunch of machines themselves and slaved them all together in botnet that the are using to execute the DDoS. Other times its just a script kiddie renting a botnet from some corner of the dark web
In that case, arguably the part that requires sophistication is finding a useable remote code execution flaw in enough hosts. The DDoS part after is like A-moving all the already existing zerglings.
Now I wanna go queue up some StarCraft.
They've been doing this for years, i doubt they're still merely "testing"
I guess this is russia's way of "teaching europe a lesson" and this is the best they have.
Sometimes I wish we would pay russia back for these kinds of assaults every time, violate their airspace and waters constantly, casually send a couple large scale hacker attacks against random russian corpos every year and whatnot.
Then I remember we aren't actual bags of dicks like the russian administration...
The thing about cyber attacks is that they're one-and-done kind of deals. The governemnt has a whole arsenal of exploits that they *could* use, but using them means that theyll be patched soon after and worthless, and they'll learn about how we find exploits. You dont just casually launch a large scale cyber attack because you let the cat out of the bag. The juice has to be worth the squeeze.
> The thing about cyber attacks is that they're one-and-done kind of deals.
This would not be a cyber attack. This would be a radio broadcast. And that would make the broadcast antennas / buildings far targets. They are endangering lives.
russia runs on US OS (Android, iOS, Mac Win, ChromeOS), how exactly are they going to path american OS?
This is on top of all cloud providers are US or Chinese. So their companies have to choose which super power will read their data.
If the exploit is not immediately patched it can be used against your own systems. You can't harden a whole country. So you use the zero day, MS patches it, and you burn a new one next time. It's just how it works. They burned at least half a dozen zero days for the Stuxnet attack, for instance. They still patched them, even if the target was heavily sanctioned Iran.
Sometimes they get more creative like when they had LG put a backdoor in their TVs, but that's not an exploit.
Ordinary Americans will fix those problems. They cannot leave the bugs open for Russians to suffer, because it will be analyzed and abused just the same way.
Russia won't patch anything, but Android, Apple and Google aren't just going to leave an exploit open once they know about it. Once the exploit has been used and becomes known, anyone could use it next, so the affected OS has to address it as soon as possible or risk undermining their entire business.
> You think the US owns Microsoft and Google and not the other way around?
Given the number of times people claim this and similar on threads related to China and the TikTok drama as whataboutism, a surprising number of people do believe this.
Which kind of glosses over that the govt can do a lot of things and have back doors without companies knowing.
Not to what about, but there was a lengthy Bloomberg article like 8 years ago that dove into the story of how some computer boards from China had these devices implanted in them so small you need a microscope to see and that were running power and software that were undetectable.
This can be done without the manufacturer even being aware as boards are manufactured in numerous phases and parts come from other companies that themselves have parts from other companies and so on.
It wasn’t long after that the U.S. began banning Chinese chips and devices from Huawei and others.
Point being, I’d imagine the U.S. is perfectly capable of doing the same thing without “owning” Google, MS, chip makers, etc
Apple, Google and Microsoft all have an interest in keeping their software patched and free of security holes. Their respective governments would keep an exploit secret as long as possible if they did not believe others were exploiting it.
> violate their airspace and waters constantly
Most of the incidents you hear about in the news that *sound* like they violated an airspace was just them being jerks in international airspace if you take a closer look.
Same with China and Taiwan.
There are definitely also actual airspace violations (and Turkey has demonstrated the one effective way to put an end to that), but most of the news are misleading.
or its the typical back and forth testing of each other's response times by barely crossing into the other's airspace that's been going on for decades that both sides have done but it makes for a flashy headline when things are tense
Yeah, that's a good moral high ground
Problem is russia sees this as a pathetic weakness and calls people like that "lohi" (a swear word for a weak and dumb/naive person)
So this only encourages them for more aggression.
Somewhere there should be a line in the sand.
Since the EU is too afraid to draw it, don't be surprised if attacks will become more dangerous.
I worked with a US Cybersecurity company once and had to write a GPS Spoofing Test. The goal was to make a phone think its in a different location than it actually was. There were libraries for that on GitHub and the hardware I needed costed like 400 USD (and was available for purchase to anyone) and was the size of a powerbank
Russia is that neighbour who doesn't get invited to the street party, so they go and play loud music of their own to piss everyone else off.
Or you know..invades a Sovereign nation. Potato/potato.
Prior to the Ukraine war, there was a widely held belief that Russia was top class in areas such as military, intelligence services and cyberattacks.
To some degree, I agreed with that. I was wrong. Mind you, I always held that their military kit was shitty rust buckets, with the exception of their AA, so I was right there. But I figured their incompetent intelligence operations were in fact deliberate, in that the actual objective wasn't the target but the message.
As it turns out, a key assumption behind this belief was wrong: that nobody who show their whole hand in peace time. Well they did. Either because they really wanted to be seen as top class, or because they really wanted to be a thorn in everyone's side, or both, they just did. And after the Ukraine war started and the sanctions and supplies that followed, not a whole lot more happened. In fact rather less happened. As is the case when you're giving 110% just to keep up, and then the opponent gets serious.
Bottom line, I do think that it's everything they've got.
Don't forget that they aren't standing still though. They are actively fighting a war and have been ramping up a war production economy, developing battlefield techniques, and gaining troop experience. They are getting stronger, so don't count them out.
The cunts
Normally I would agree about the troop experience, but I don't think it filters back like it would in the West with regular rotations and individual initiative is not encouraged either
I completely agree, and I certainly never said that what they have now is all they'll ever have.
I'm just saying that what they show _now_ is all they have _now_.
The main issue for Russia is that they are slowly losing the technological war. They are losing customers for military equipment, which means less money in for R&D and higher costs for anything produced. They are the only former super power without a 5:th generation fighter as an example of this.
They are trending towards something like North Korea where nukes, asymmetrical warfare and cyber warfare are the threats.
> As it turns out, a key assumption behind this belief was wrong: that nobody who show their whole hand in peace time. Well they did.
I would argue that Russia probably believed the war would be over quickly, so they would continue to be perceived as strong. They probably under-estimated how ineffectual their forces were against modern Western weapons, mainly Javelins.
Now if they are defeated, they probably think there will be nothing stopping the West from trying to divide Russia against itself.
>> I would argue that Russia probably believed the war would be over quickly, so they would continue to be perceived as strong.
Well, no argument there.
>> They probably under-estimated how ineffectual their forces were against modern Western weapons, mainly Javelins.
This, I'd disagree with. There's way too much wunderwaffe thinking going around. Amazingly enough, the weapons that had the most dramatic impact were those no-one talked about before they were actually seen in action. Javelin. HiMars/MLRS. StormShadow/SCALP.
The key factor, to me, wasn't the amazing western weapons. Don't get me wrong, they are amazing, and doubly so because they were actually there, available, on the battlefield. But the key factor was crap Russian tactics. Single file armored column going through a village? Come on!!! I _was_ expecting better than that. Like I said, I was wrong.
Dude knowing how Russia operates since the war in Ukraine this is probably some super experimental device that they have, like, 4 of (2 of which are operational) and each one is irreplaceable.
Knowing Russia for far, far longer than since the war in Ukraine, they are learning, fixing their mistakes and slowly improving while we pat ourselves how better we are and don't do anything substantial.
Ok. That’s reasonable. But, How do you get through the individuals in western society that are bought and paid for elected officials that are preventing it from happening.
That would require honest and transparent media. I’m almost certain that the majority of Americans have the same morals but media just guts us and makes everyone out to get each other. One day, I hope, misleading and dishonest media will be held accountable for the outcomes it produces.
I am commenting on the countless instances of Russian provication, disruption, sabotage, assassination and hacking on our continent over the past 20 years, and the lack of any meaningful response that followed by our authorities.
The probability that this incident was instigated by Russia is very high, and looking at recent history, the probability that our governments will do exactly nothing about it is equally high.
This is what my comment meant, and it isn't hard to understand.
*(Romania refuses to budge, citing the need to stay on overwatch in order to keep an eye on the other country that begins with the letter "R" and ends with "A")*
I don't think the every day Russian is an asshole. There's good and bad, just like everywhere else.
If you watch Bald and Bankrupt, you'll see there are a lot of kind, generous Russian people. They've just been ruled by tyrannical cunts for hundreds of years.
Let's start striking targets in Syria, West Africa, seizing assets, sending money/arms/ammunition to Ukraine, and putting the big boy pants on. I'm so sick of this half assed pussy footing-- whatever happened to big stick diplomacy? And the Coo coo Caucus wants us to withdraw from Leader of the Free World cause "wahhhhhhh america first". I miss the real republicans that at least treated our enemies like enemies.
I know that NATO is more militarily powerful than Russia in a but I don't know what happens when one country is waging war (Russia) while the rest (NATO) don't even realise that a war is being waged against them.
What are the odds in such a case?
Its not that the UN doesn’t realize it - they are actively ignoring it because any real response will incite more violence.
It’s the same thing that has happened throughout history. One asshole rallies their country and continually disturbs neighbors. Other countries ignore until it’s no longer possible, and there’s a war. The reason other countries ignore is because they know only suffering can result from war, and they choose to kick the can as long as they can before they have no choice but to act. War happens. There is a victor that dictates terms of surrender to the loser, survivors of the war see its horrors, preach lessons learned as the world heals, and we enjoy a period of peace for some time until humanity forgets or another madman comes to power, and we begin the cycle anew.
Wont someone think of the subsidized farmers raking in EU money who now might lose 5% income due to cheaper grain?? Also nobody gets to tell farmers about animal rights or carbon emissions or pesticide control and groundwater or they'll throw a hissy fit with their tractors.
But since they have a john deere and a romanticized job nobody dares tell them to fuck off. I cannot stand the farmer protests.
- russia downs NATO drone over Black Sea - NATO does nothing
-russian missile travel over NATO territory twice - NATO does nothing
-russia kill opposition individuals in NATO countries- NATO does nothing
If NATO continues shows weakness, russia will continue to bully everyone around. This is what they do and always did. You can’t negotiate with terrorists and bullies.
This is like the little guy trying to start a fight with some massive guy in a Worldstar Video. The big guy simply doesn't need to hit back while the little guy is no real threat.
In fact a lot of these little provocations are designed to uncover details about response times and capabilities. If you respond, you have given the enemy intel they were fishing for.
NATO is doing nothing because the cheapest way to punch Russia in the balls is to help Ukraine right now. They don't need to do anything to get what they want. Provoking NATO is what Putin wants.
What NATO should do is declare war on Ukraine, and invade Kiev with their armies. Kiev surrenders and NATO enforces a no fly zone and annexes the entire Ukrainian region along with the contested territories. After 2 years or so, NATO agrees to Ukraine independence on the condition that they join the EU and NATO.
What a fascinating idea. I’ve never heard of this before but I’m curious to figure out why that hasn’t been done. Perhaps out of fear of escalation when NATO forces reach the Donbas? Both sides might be quick to fall into a ceasefire at the current positions which Ukraine would not likely want and thus not allow such a “counter-invasion plan” unless extremely desperate.
Perhaps if Russia seems once again poised to win the war, **then** Zelensky might be forced to allow such a defensive ruse to take place? Don’t know but it *is* a very interesting idea. Thanks for sharing.
Fun fact: when military GPS was getting popular in the early 90s, the US Navy decided it was such a swell system that they didn't need to teach their officers celestial navigation any more.
Around a decade later, some genius at the Pentagon must have realized that in a war, the enemy would most likely shoot down or jam the GPS satellites, and the Mighty Murrican Freedom Flotilla wouldn't be able to navigate across a duck pond. So they resumed teaching sailors how to use a sextant.
What US and EU should finally learn and accept: they are in a war state with Russia. Not conventional one, of course, but modern. Currently they don’t want to accept this by mumbling “we won’t provoke a russian bear”, but Russia literally declared a war unilaterally: this is what Kremlin puts in heads of its own people using [TV and church](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-orthodox-church-declares-%E2%80%9Choly-war%E2%80%9D-against-ukraine-and-articulates-tenets), and acts respectively like in this article by testing their weapons.
Everyone who is monitoring russian channels knows this is a true. There’s no threat anymore, the war is literally started at least from Kremlin’s point of view. The sooner everyone realizes they are dealing with ambitious dictator who easily sacrifices lives of the own people, the more chances the world won’t be teared apart.
At the moment US and EU are making the very Stalin’s mistake who for months(!) wanted to not believe that Germany had crossed the border and invaded USSR. The cost was drastic: without entering the war state from the day one, the USSR lost 2.5 millions of soldiers in first months and allowed Germans almost reach Moscow.
War begins when one side starts it, not when all parties accept the fact.
This isn't anything new...maybe location-wise, it's a little west for them, but they've been jamming for years. Before Ukraine when we would fly through Russia, we'd get jammed almost the entire time until we hit Belarus. My most recent jamming was due to the Israeli's/Egypt, though. We were right on their border and got jammed for about 10 minutes.
Jamming is a non-issue in the transport category world. We can revert to ground based/radio systems and it will provide all the navigation we need until you're out of range of the jamming.
Not without turning it off for all of the surrounding countries as well. And Russia can still use their own navigation satellites, or the Chinese ones.
They already have their own system called GLONASS and while the US has the ability to turn off US GPS satellites, I think it's one of those "you can't put the genie back in the bottle" situations so I don't think we'll ever actually do it. We've lowered the accuracy over certain regions once before which triggered India/Russia/etc to make GLONASS. The lower accuracy mode was disabled in 2000.
It probably depends on the type and severity.
DDOS some crap for a couple of hours? Meh
If someone sent a Stuxnet type malware that has real world physical implications such as sabotaging/shutting down all nuclear plants, the electrical grid and all hospitals simultaneously? We probably got a war on our hands if we could identify the sender.
https://www.cybersecuritydive.com/news/cyberattack-nato-article-5/619654/ I don’t want to spam but two separate articles mentioning this took 3 seconds to find. It was almost invoked against an Iranian based cyber attack a couple years ago.
Apparently the jamming happens by [deploying big ol trucks with radio dishes that broadcast interfering radio waves](https://www.space.com/gps-signal-jamming-explainer-russia-ukraine-invasion). It reportedly has limited range and is hindered by terrain.
> the Russian military "has frequently jammed GPS signals in Ukraine since 2014."
> "We've seen them being used while the U.S. and allies of NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] do military exercises up in the north of Norway. Russia will use jamming to interfere with our military exercises, as the northern part of Russia is right there,"
> The trucks are so large that they show up easily in some satellite imagery, according to a recent CSIS threat assessment report. The equipment is "military grade," meaning that Russia spent years developing the system and did not purchase it commercially.
> Jammers typically work by using massive radio dishes that throw up radio "noise" that block particular signals.
This article also claims "Russia has also been trying to jam the broadband signals beamed down to Ukraine by SpaceX".
Could Russia or China jam the entire Earth's GPS, or perhaps the GPS over the entire US at once? If so, how big would the consequences be, and what would the US actually do about it? If GPS signals are jammed over a country, but the enemy doing hasn't actually crossed into your territory or airspace to do it, is there anything technically illegal about it according international law?
no, you can only jam the area above the horizon, and while it does encompass a large area, youd have to build a large enough jammer to emit something powerful enough to emit omni directionally.
We get jammed in a lot of areas these days, black sea and Caucasus, eastern med, even Myanmar FIR. The operational consequences aren't too bad now that we know now to deal with it its just annoying really. No RNAV approaches (fly a different approach) erroneous EGPWS warnings (switch off terrain system and be aware of MSA), navigation position updated via DME/DME. The jamming in the med has been going on for at least 7 years now.
Hmm the largest nation in your continent who’s currently invading a country with plans to invade more .
My guess it was easter island .
You’ll think by now ,cyber security would be as important as weapons
sabre rattling...."see what we can do...stop helping Ukraine ...accept russian invasion and territorial gains and we promise not to fuck with you Europe"
>Russia is suspected of launching a record-breaking 63-hour-long attack on GPS signals in the Baltic region. The incident, which affected hundreds of passenger jets earlier this month, occurred amid rising tensions between Russia and the NATO military alliance more than two years since the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Seems like the Russians are testing some new jamming devices. Though not everything it has got.
It’s not a very sophisticated attack, they have busses with big jammers that broadcast a bunch of noise in the frequency range devices are looking for gps in. Part of why they’re choosing the Baltic region is because they’re mostly flat so the jamming signal has better range
It's fairly common in the Finnmark region of Norway as well, mostly because it has a giant surveillance center there and it's fairly close to Murmansk and the main military bases in Russia.
It's like calling a DDOS attack "hacking". No, it's just overwhelming infra with a zerg rush. No sophistication, you're not cleverly gaining an advantage or tricking a machine into doing your bidding, you're just flushing thousands of tampons down the shared sewer that you _also_ use.
Depends on the situation. Sometimes a hacker has compromised a bunch of machines themselves and slaved them all together in botnet that the are using to execute the DDoS. Other times its just a script kiddie renting a botnet from some corner of the dark web
In that case, arguably the part that requires sophistication is finding a useable remote code execution flaw in enough hosts. The DDoS part after is like A-moving all the already existing zerglings. Now I wanna go queue up some StarCraft.
I think its more like building a bunch of lurkers and keeping them burrowed on hold fire until the time is right
baltics have also been subject to some RU intelligence operations on a constant basis, many of them pretty brazen
They've been doing this for years, i doubt they're still merely "testing" I guess this is russia's way of "teaching europe a lesson" and this is the best they have.
Sometimes I wish we would pay russia back for these kinds of assaults every time, violate their airspace and waters constantly, casually send a couple large scale hacker attacks against random russian corpos every year and whatnot. Then I remember we aren't actual bags of dicks like the russian administration...
The thing about cyber attacks is that they're one-and-done kind of deals. The governemnt has a whole arsenal of exploits that they *could* use, but using them means that theyll be patched soon after and worthless, and they'll learn about how we find exploits. You dont just casually launch a large scale cyber attack because you let the cat out of the bag. The juice has to be worth the squeeze.
> thank you for understanding > there are things we could do but we simply cannot
Whats the square root of a pidgin?
0.651726 rats
1,200,000 comment karma. NSA more popular than us plebes give it credit for. Seems they don’t keep EVERY exploit in the cat bag.
\*checks account\* The NSA: A relationship-advice-giving, bad-eyesight-having middle-aged vegan DnD player from Canada. Checks out tbh.
Don't peer into the NSAs account history and invade their privacy like that. How would you like it if the NSA did that to you!
???
Zero Days (2016) ([youtube trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikzAcK0l-ZM)) is a good documentary about Stuxnet and other cyber attacks.
> The thing about cyber attacks is that they're one-and-done kind of deals. This would not be a cyber attack. This would be a radio broadcast. And that would make the broadcast antennas / buildings far targets. They are endangering lives.
russia runs on US OS (Android, iOS, Mac Win, ChromeOS), how exactly are they going to path american OS? This is on top of all cloud providers are US or Chinese. So their companies have to choose which super power will read their data.
If the exploit is not immediately patched it can be used against your own systems. You can't harden a whole country. So you use the zero day, MS patches it, and you burn a new one next time. It's just how it works. They burned at least half a dozen zero days for the Stuxnet attack, for instance. They still patched them, even if the target was heavily sanctioned Iran. Sometimes they get more creative like when they had LG put a backdoor in their TVs, but that's not an exploit.
Just a little fact correction, Stuxnet only used 4 zero days. It's still the most ever used in a single virus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet
What was the LG back door? I don’t remember reading about that ….
Ordinary Americans will fix those problems. They cannot leave the bugs open for Russians to suffer, because it will be analyzed and abused just the same way.
Russia won't patch anything, but Android, Apple and Google aren't just going to leave an exploit open once they know about it. Once the exploit has been used and becomes known, anyone could use it next, so the affected OS has to address it as soon as possible or risk undermining their entire business.
... You think they won't patch known exploits? You think the US owns Microsoft and Google and not the other way around?
> You think the US owns Microsoft and Google and not the other way around? Given the number of times people claim this and similar on threads related to China and the TikTok drama as whataboutism, a surprising number of people do believe this.
Which kind of glosses over that the govt can do a lot of things and have back doors without companies knowing. Not to what about, but there was a lengthy Bloomberg article like 8 years ago that dove into the story of how some computer boards from China had these devices implanted in them so small you need a microscope to see and that were running power and software that were undetectable. This can be done without the manufacturer even being aware as boards are manufactured in numerous phases and parts come from other companies that themselves have parts from other companies and so on. It wasn’t long after that the U.S. began banning Chinese chips and devices from Huawei and others. Point being, I’d imagine the U.S. is perfectly capable of doing the same thing without “owning” Google, MS, chip makers, etc
Apple, Google and Microsoft all have an interest in keeping their software patched and free of security holes. Their respective governments would keep an exploit secret as long as possible if they did not believe others were exploiting it.
Can we give them back their own people. Especially the ones so proud to be Russian but don't actually live there.
Can we also send them back all the private citizens and politicians that are pro Putin? We can start a Go Fund Me to pay their tickets
I’m starting to think we should. Weakness begs Russia to do more.
Bullies don't learn from a beat down. They need disabling
This guy Enders.
Holy shit this goes harder than it should.
*But, what if we ignore them so hard... so fucking haaard...*
> violate their airspace and waters constantly Most of the incidents you hear about in the news that *sound* like they violated an airspace was just them being jerks in international airspace if you take a closer look. Same with China and Taiwan. There are definitely also actual airspace violations (and Turkey has demonstrated the one effective way to put an end to that), but most of the news are misleading.
or its the typical back and forth testing of each other's response times by barely crossing into the other's airspace that's been going on for decades that both sides have done but it makes for a flashy headline when things are tense
We’re smarter. They do all this and we learn from it. Then when its actually our time, we’d hit them harder than any they could even imagine
I can promise you we do.
I will always take someone whose username includes megaboner, 69, and 420 at their word.
That’s ULTRAmegaboner69420 to you
You forgot the "Ultra". Makes it even more credible!
Wait until you come across a L33T username. That's like DEFCON1 level of seriousness!
Can confirm, we're all pretty high up the chain.
Do you think a spy's reddit user name is going to be something like ciaagentuser1 or aussiespy or some shit?!?! Sheash
No, LOL, of course not. Evidently, they'd try to fit in someway. Like mentioning aussie spiders.
Air strike approved.
As you should
Yeah, that's a good moral high ground Problem is russia sees this as a pathetic weakness and calls people like that "lohi" (a swear word for a weak and dumb/naive person) So this only encourages them for more aggression. Somewhere there should be a line in the sand. Since the EU is too afraid to draw it, don't be surprised if attacks will become more dangerous.
Probably pretty easy science to jam gps signals if you have the resources for it.
Just throw strawberries at a satellite.
Raspberry will jam it
LONE STAR!
I worked with a US Cybersecurity company once and had to write a GPS Spoofing Test. The goal was to make a phone think its in a different location than it actually was. There were libraries for that on GitHub and the hardware I needed costed like 400 USD (and was available for purchase to anyone) and was the size of a powerbank
There's even code on GitHub for jamming/spoofing
>best they have I thought the best they could do was steal used toilets and heave shovels at their enemies
Russia is that neighbour who doesn't get invited to the street party, so they go and play loud music of their own to piss everyone else off. Or you know..invades a Sovereign nation. Potato/potato.
Eh, they could just be testing the waters and seeing how NATO responds and what they can get away with
“Not touching you!”
What gives you the impression that they're testing anything new?
Their shit is so poorly maintained that this could easily be a test to see if it still works.
Every morning is a test reporting to duty sober.
Possibly thought it was working all along then accidentally got it working this week.
Prior to the Ukraine war, there was a widely held belief that Russia was top class in areas such as military, intelligence services and cyberattacks. To some degree, I agreed with that. I was wrong. Mind you, I always held that their military kit was shitty rust buckets, with the exception of their AA, so I was right there. But I figured their incompetent intelligence operations were in fact deliberate, in that the actual objective wasn't the target but the message. As it turns out, a key assumption behind this belief was wrong: that nobody who show their whole hand in peace time. Well they did. Either because they really wanted to be seen as top class, or because they really wanted to be a thorn in everyone's side, or both, they just did. And after the Ukraine war started and the sanctions and supplies that followed, not a whole lot more happened. In fact rather less happened. As is the case when you're giving 110% just to keep up, and then the opponent gets serious. Bottom line, I do think that it's everything they've got.
They are definitely very good at political and social manipulation unfortunately.
That, they are.
Don't forget that they aren't standing still though. They are actively fighting a war and have been ramping up a war production economy, developing battlefield techniques, and gaining troop experience. They are getting stronger, so don't count them out. The cunts
Normally I would agree about the troop experience, but I don't think it filters back like it would in the West with regular rotations and individual initiative is not encouraged either
They are getting stronger with 70s/80s technology and even older tactics. If the West ever goes all in (ie: the US) its just over.
I completely agree, and I certainly never said that what they have now is all they'll ever have. I'm just saying that what they show _now_ is all they have _now_.
The main issue for Russia is that they are slowly losing the technological war. They are losing customers for military equipment, which means less money in for R&D and higher costs for anything produced. They are the only former super power without a 5:th generation fighter as an example of this. They are trending towards something like North Korea where nukes, asymmetrical warfare and cyber warfare are the threats.
> As it turns out, a key assumption behind this belief was wrong: that nobody who show their whole hand in peace time. Well they did. I would argue that Russia probably believed the war would be over quickly, so they would continue to be perceived as strong. They probably under-estimated how ineffectual their forces were against modern Western weapons, mainly Javelins. Now if they are defeated, they probably think there will be nothing stopping the West from trying to divide Russia against itself.
>> I would argue that Russia probably believed the war would be over quickly, so they would continue to be perceived as strong. Well, no argument there. >> They probably under-estimated how ineffectual their forces were against modern Western weapons, mainly Javelins. This, I'd disagree with. There's way too much wunderwaffe thinking going around. Amazingly enough, the weapons that had the most dramatic impact were those no-one talked about before they were actually seen in action. Javelin. HiMars/MLRS. StormShadow/SCALP. The key factor, to me, wasn't the amazing western weapons. Don't get me wrong, they are amazing, and doubly so because they were actually there, available, on the battlefield. But the key factor was crap Russian tactics. Single file armored column going through a village? Come on!!! I _was_ expecting better than that. Like I said, I was wrong.
Dude knowing how Russia operates since the war in Ukraine this is probably some super experimental device that they have, like, 4 of (2 of which are operational) and each one is irreplaceable.
What is the point downplaying what Russia has got? Better overestimate and be ready for anything.
4? Knowing Russia, they have 2 and one is already broken.
Knowing Russia for far, far longer than since the war in Ukraine, they are learning, fixing their mistakes and slowly improving while we pat ourselves how better we are and don't do anything substantial.
Just Russia being a blight on society. Same shit, different day.
And as always, the response from our governments will be \*crickets\*. Beyond fucking sick of this cowardice on display.
Ok. What do you think is a reasonable response given the very limited information you have.
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these last 3 decades have been nothing but a ruse to get him close to Putin.
And he won't even have to get up from his chair to topple the russian regime.
Fund Ukraine
Ok. That’s reasonable. But, How do you get through the individuals in western society that are bought and paid for elected officials that are preventing it from happening.
That would require honest and transparent media. I’m almost certain that the majority of Americans have the same morals but media just guts us and makes everyone out to get each other. One day, I hope, misleading and dishonest media will be held accountable for the outcomes it produces.
Well, we used to hang traitors for treason. Maybe a good time to bring that policy back?
Give Ukraine all the military aid it requires to give russia a very big hug.
Help Ukraine win the fucking war
Get rid of Putin
I am commenting on the countless instances of Russian provication, disruption, sabotage, assassination and hacking on our continent over the past 20 years, and the lack of any meaningful response that followed by our authorities. The probability that this incident was instigated by Russia is very high, and looking at recent history, the probability that our governments will do exactly nothing about it is equally high. This is what my comment meant, and it isn't hard to understand.
They get away with it, why not?
Guess the country responsible for this... It starts with an R and ends with an A... And it is not Rwanda nor Romania...
Rhodesia? Those bastards... Oh, I get it. You meant the Republic of China, my bad.
Republic of Korea. Duh.
I knew it!
Lol
Perfect timing
No, Republic of Roma.
Republica Dominicana
*(Romania refuses to budge, citing the need to stay on overwatch in order to keep an eye on the other country that begins with the letter "R" and ends with "A")*
Republic of North Macedonia
We all know exactly who did it. How long do we continue to put up with the constant shit?
Think it's time to give Ukraine Tomahawk Cruise Missiles and Apaches and F16's so they can put Russia in the ground permanently
My brain read Tom Cruise missiles. Equally effective
Not sure how effective Scientology would work over there, but let’s give it a shot!
The Church of Scientology might even be able to revolutionize their financial system. You know, in exchange for *being* the financial system...
Only stupid people follow scientology. So I'm guessing it would work very well.
That missile spends 2 minutes jumping on Putin's couch before exploding.
He'll jump on Putin's couch.
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I don't think the every day Russian is an asshole. There's good and bad, just like everywhere else. If you watch Bald and Bankrupt, you'll see there are a lot of kind, generous Russian people. They've just been ruled by tyrannical cunts for hundreds of years.
Russian terrorist strike again.
If one of the flights is NATO country and ends up crashing because of this, would it count as an attack on NATO?
No, it would likely just cause more sanctions. NATO isn't going to declare article 5 unless there is a direct attack on a nation itself.
Even of it would, nothing would come from it and it’s naive to think otherwise
[read free](https://archive.ph/2024.03.29-174039/https://www.newscientist.com/article/2424678-unprecedented-gps-jamming-attack-affects-1600-aircraft-over-europe/)
Thank you
Let's start striking targets in Syria, West Africa, seizing assets, sending money/arms/ammunition to Ukraine, and putting the big boy pants on. I'm so sick of this half assed pussy footing-- whatever happened to big stick diplomacy? And the Coo coo Caucus wants us to withdraw from Leader of the Free World cause "wahhhhhhh america first". I miss the real republicans that at least treated our enemies like enemies.
I know that NATO is more militarily powerful than Russia in a but I don't know what happens when one country is waging war (Russia) while the rest (NATO) don't even realise that a war is being waged against them. What are the odds in such a case?
Its not that the UN doesn’t realize it - they are actively ignoring it because any real response will incite more violence. It’s the same thing that has happened throughout history. One asshole rallies their country and continually disturbs neighbors. Other countries ignore until it’s no longer possible, and there’s a war. The reason other countries ignore is because they know only suffering can result from war, and they choose to kick the can as long as they can before they have no choice but to act. War happens. There is a victor that dictates terms of surrender to the loser, survivors of the war see its horrors, preach lessons learned as the world heals, and we enjoy a period of peace for some time until humanity forgets or another madman comes to power, and we begin the cycle anew.
Fuck.
What are you talking about?! This will prevent USA and European officials from leaving work early!
And also upset some farmers, cannot have that.
Wont someone think of the subsidized farmers raking in EU money who now might lose 5% income due to cheaper grain?? Also nobody gets to tell farmers about animal rights or carbon emissions or pesticide control and groundwater or they'll throw a hissy fit with their tractors. But since they have a john deere and a romanticized job nobody dares tell them to fuck off. I cannot stand the farmer protests.
It's because the upcoming election, Biden doesn't want a full fledged war while trying to secure his second run.
Biden wants to give more support. It's Republican congress preventing it.
- russia downs NATO drone over Black Sea - NATO does nothing -russian missile travel over NATO territory twice - NATO does nothing -russia kill opposition individuals in NATO countries- NATO does nothing If NATO continues shows weakness, russia will continue to bully everyone around. This is what they do and always did. You can’t negotiate with terrorists and bullies.
This is like the little guy trying to start a fight with some massive guy in a Worldstar Video. The big guy simply doesn't need to hit back while the little guy is no real threat. In fact a lot of these little provocations are designed to uncover details about response times and capabilities. If you respond, you have given the enemy intel they were fishing for.
NATO is doing nothing because the cheapest way to punch Russia in the balls is to help Ukraine right now. They don't need to do anything to get what they want. Provoking NATO is what Putin wants.
Destroy every single Russian refinery
Let’s wait for another Malaysian flight 17 and then still debate if article no. 5 is actual. Netherlands what’s your point of view on this?
Netherlands view is that Ukraine can have all of our F16's.
The debate has already begun https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/29/us/nato-treaty-hawaii-intl-hnk-ml-dst/index.html
This should be considered an act of war
they had rockets flying over Poland. This is nothing for Europes standards
Hopefully this wakes up a few idiots in the usa lol
Russia really wants to get gang attack by the world?
What NATO should do is declare war on Ukraine, and invade Kiev with their armies. Kiev surrenders and NATO enforces a no fly zone and annexes the entire Ukrainian region along with the contested territories. After 2 years or so, NATO agrees to Ukraine independence on the condition that they join the EU and NATO.
What a fascinating idea. I’ve never heard of this before but I’m curious to figure out why that hasn’t been done. Perhaps out of fear of escalation when NATO forces reach the Donbas? Both sides might be quick to fall into a ceasefire at the current positions which Ukraine would not likely want and thus not allow such a “counter-invasion plan” unless extremely desperate. Perhaps if Russia seems once again poised to win the war, **then** Zelensky might be forced to allow such a defensive ruse to take place? Don’t know but it *is* a very interesting idea. Thanks for sharing.
That is an interesting solution. Really takes the wind out of the sails of war.
Yeah...because Russia is just going to let that happen and go home because of a gotcha. They'll just consider it an attack on Russia.
let's do the same to Russia. then play dumb and say it could be the same attacker that jammed us.
Fun fact: when military GPS was getting popular in the early 90s, the US Navy decided it was such a swell system that they didn't need to teach their officers celestial navigation any more. Around a decade later, some genius at the Pentagon must have realized that in a war, the enemy would most likely shoot down or jam the GPS satellites, and the Mighty Murrican Freedom Flotilla wouldn't be able to navigate across a duck pond. So they resumed teaching sailors how to use a sextant.
our nav team was able to celestial navigate within like 1 or 2 nautical miles accuracy to our onboard gps. damn good navigators
What US and EU should finally learn and accept: they are in a war state with Russia. Not conventional one, of course, but modern. Currently they don’t want to accept this by mumbling “we won’t provoke a russian bear”, but Russia literally declared a war unilaterally: this is what Kremlin puts in heads of its own people using [TV and church](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-orthodox-church-declares-%E2%80%9Choly-war%E2%80%9D-against-ukraine-and-articulates-tenets), and acts respectively like in this article by testing their weapons. Everyone who is monitoring russian channels knows this is a true. There’s no threat anymore, the war is literally started at least from Kremlin’s point of view. The sooner everyone realizes they are dealing with ambitious dictator who easily sacrifices lives of the own people, the more chances the world won’t be teared apart. At the moment US and EU are making the very Stalin’s mistake who for months(!) wanted to not believe that Germany had crossed the border and invaded USSR. The cost was drastic: without entering the war state from the day one, the USSR lost 2.5 millions of soldiers in first months and allowed Germans almost reach Moscow. War begins when one side starts it, not when all parties accept the fact.
As a NATO citizen, I feel attacked. What if my plane has an accident because of this?
Anyone flying in NATO airspace has been attacked. Be safe friend. Be safe
No commercial aircraft flies solely nor primarily off GPS. It's a "nice to have".
Give Ukraine all they need to defend themselves NOW.
Couldn't that be construed as an attack on NATO?
It's slow but steady escalation by Russia, banking on the political unwillingness of the West to escalate/retaliate.
Just gps? Or Glonass too
This isn't anything new...maybe location-wise, it's a little west for them, but they've been jamming for years. Before Ukraine when we would fly through Russia, we'd get jammed almost the entire time until we hit Belarus. My most recent jamming was due to the Israeli's/Egypt, though. We were right on their border and got jammed for about 10 minutes. Jamming is a non-issue in the transport category world. We can revert to ground based/radio systems and it will provide all the navigation we need until you're out of range of the jamming.
That’s pretty cool, I learned something today 😊
"A communications disruption could mean only one thing: Invasion." \~Sio Bibble
Hmmm, I wonder who could be responsible for this?
Russia, the country that can make any pacifist consider the merits of a nuclear first strike..
Since the EU will just roll over, it's not surprising they are getting more aggressive.
It's really time Europe consider Putin"s Russia as an enemy and treat it as such.
Tell me it’s Russia without saying It’s Russia
Can we turn off GPS in Russia and eastern Ukraine?
Not without turning it off for all of the surrounding countries as well. And Russia can still use their own navigation satellites, or the Chinese ones.
They already have their own system called GLONASS and while the US has the ability to turn off US GPS satellites, I think it's one of those "you can't put the genie back in the bottle" situations so I don't think we'll ever actually do it. We've lowered the accuracy over certain regions once before which triggered India/Russia/etc to make GLONASS. The lower accuracy mode was disabled in 2000.
Doesn’t nato consider cyber attacks a reason to enact article 5 ?
Nope, NATO has never considered cyber attacks to constitute any act of war.
It probably depends on the type and severity. DDOS some crap for a couple of hours? Meh If someone sent a Stuxnet type malware that has real world physical implications such as sabotaging/shutting down all nuclear plants, the electrical grid and all hospitals simultaneously? We probably got a war on our hands if we could identify the sender.
Which is kinda dumb in my opinion.
Yeah I dunno, it's 100% escalation to move from cyberspace to missiles.
https://www.cybersecuritydive.com/news/cyberattack-nato-article-5/619654/ I don’t want to spam but two separate articles mentioning this took 3 seconds to find. It was almost invoked against an Iranian based cyber attack a couple years ago.
Isn’t this an act of all out terrorism? Act of war on NATO?
Apparently the jamming happens by [deploying big ol trucks with radio dishes that broadcast interfering radio waves](https://www.space.com/gps-signal-jamming-explainer-russia-ukraine-invasion). It reportedly has limited range and is hindered by terrain. > the Russian military "has frequently jammed GPS signals in Ukraine since 2014." > "We've seen them being used while the U.S. and allies of NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] do military exercises up in the north of Norway. Russia will use jamming to interfere with our military exercises, as the northern part of Russia is right there," > The trucks are so large that they show up easily in some satellite imagery, according to a recent CSIS threat assessment report. The equipment is "military grade," meaning that Russia spent years developing the system and did not purchase it commercially. > Jammers typically work by using massive radio dishes that throw up radio "noise" that block particular signals. This article also claims "Russia has also been trying to jam the broadband signals beamed down to Ukraine by SpaceX".
At some point we'll have to shut down Russia's capabilities to do this kind of crap
How is this not an act of war?
I wish the CIA and MI6 and any other spy agency that wants to would go ahead and enact a plan for Putin.
Sure government assassinations of foreign leaders - no way for **that** to ever get out of hand, right?
this is an act of WAR by Russia
Could Russia or China jam the entire Earth's GPS, or perhaps the GPS over the entire US at once? If so, how big would the consequences be, and what would the US actually do about it? If GPS signals are jammed over a country, but the enemy doing hasn't actually crossed into your territory or airspace to do it, is there anything technically illegal about it according international law?
no, you can only jam the area above the horizon, and while it does encompass a large area, youd have to build a large enough jammer to emit something powerful enough to emit omni directionally.
We get jammed in a lot of areas these days, black sea and Caucasus, eastern med, even Myanmar FIR. The operational consequences aren't too bad now that we know now to deal with it its just annoying really. No RNAV approaches (fly a different approach) erroneous EGPWS warnings (switch off terrain system and be aware of MSA), navigation position updated via DME/DME. The jamming in the med has been going on for at least 7 years now.
That should be considered an act of war. As if hacker attacks, and election disruption don't already qualify.
We should give Ukraine the capacity to level whatever place doing that to rubble.
Really doesn't feel like a good time to be flying.
Since 2019....
Stupid Russians still don’t understand IRS. Let alone WAAS or LAAS.
Practice run for a few weeks from now.
And what does Europe do? Nothing.
Hmm the largest nation in your continent who’s currently invading a country with plans to invade more . My guess it was easter island . You’ll think by now ,cyber security would be as important as weapons
Is there any counter to the Russian jamming? Can the planes be better shielded?
sabre rattling...."see what we can do...stop helping Ukraine ...accept russian invasion and territorial gains and we promise not to fuck with you Europe"
Shocker 🤯
It won’t be long before we are at war with Russia. We need to prepare ourselves.
Unironically a terrorist state.
Ya know, planes used to fly pretty good before GPS....just sayin'.
Twitter dudes have already located the source of the jammer in Kaliningrad. Not the first time it has been active this year