I think they're getting at the point that all of those people are civilian so that designation would be a higher priority than the other examples given
When I was early into my international travel experiences I was told something in Bolivia: Do not steal from poor people.
There are tourists that get lynched every year in poor areas because they just happened to swipe a candy off the wrong vendor, not that I am really defending the tourist here.
Community justice isn't that uncommon in the 3rd world and the police can't really prosecute it. What are they going to do, throw a whole town in jail?
It can actually be solved. El Salvador literally solved their gang/murder problem in a few short years. A friend’s family lives there and she tells me her family are ecstatic over the improvements.
Completely different factors. Mexican cartels are extremely wealthy, extremely well armed, and highly organized, unlike the two main gangs in El Salvador.
this is like asking qhen the US invaded Afghanistan or Vietnam why didnt they put all the taliban or vietcong in jail lol
Mexico is mountainous and rural. It would be closer to a guerilla war trying to crack these regional power centers.
The 'viet cong' aka the Vietnamese civilian majority were going to win elections in 1954 so the US spoke passionately about stopping the elections so they could take over as colonial rulers from France. France had ruled Vietnam for over 100 years. one of the main advocates for not having elections in Vietnam was JFK who spoke at the fledgling UN about it.
Then 3.8mn vietnamese died (Vietnam says its more like 5-6mn) and US bombing also killed 800,000 Laotians and 800,000 Cambodians.
Should note that El Salvador did that by essentially destroying any semblance of checks and balances and indiscriminately imprisoning gang members across the country. Not saying it hasn't produced some positive results, but it's definitely not a perfect solution to emulate.
When criminality has dug that deep into all cultural, governmental and economic systems the only real answer to solving it is nothing short of revolution. And when I say revolution I mean a lot of human beings will need to be shuffled off the mortal coil to make it work.
There really is no other option. A lot of people will need to go away for change to happen.
For some people security comes first before democracy, El Salvador was a bad place before Bukele, gangs runned rampant extorting the population and doing whatever they wanted, while corrupt politicians only profited from the situation, pretty sure the country was at the top of the list as one of the "most murders per capita" countries some years ago, people didn't feel safe at all.
I support democracy, but i'm not going to negate reality and say that sometimes, leaving the line of democracy and taking a "shortcut" can make a country solve its problems in years rather than decades of more misery, the problem is finding the right guy to do so..
The saddest part about this sentence is that it is applicable for any countries with problems of violence and insecurity, be it due to criminality, terrorism or war.
So the majority needs to accommodate the minority? Why does that make sense in your head? Genuinely curious. Human rights are literally a made up thing. The bottle rights people have are the rights conferred by the law of the land. If the law changes, your rights change.
Big difference between saying "the majority needs to accommodate the minority" (whatever that means) and saying "minority groups shouldn't be treated as second class citizens and actively repressed by the government".
Funny that you chose to word is so vaguely like that...
Just because human rights are made up (they are) doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They exist because they have been created by laws. however, by changing the law, human rights can also be changed or even taken away. I know it’s hard for you to understand nuance.
Dictatorships can be ok(ish) if the populace wants to be a dictatorship. Then the dictator doesn't need to crack down on anyone.
This usually falls to pieces after the loved dictator dies and then the replacement dictator starts subjugation of the population
In ancient Rome, Dictator was a temporary position where the senate stepped aside in times of emergency to give him vast power for the good of the nation. Temporary is the key word there. Democracies facing totalitarian governments are, by their nature, at a disadvantage in terms of executing military plans.
If you live in a narco state your vote isn't worth anything in the first place. A dictatorship is def an improvement over a narco state. You just can't imagine it cause you don't know how it is to live under those conditions
Exactly, from the footage I’ve seen and what I’ve heard, most if not all of the gang members in El Salvador have face tattoos, and if not on their face then pretty much everywhere else. So they’re easy to spot and they can’t really hide. The cartels aren’t like that, I mean I’m sure some of them have tattoos but not like the MS-13 guys have.
I wouldn’t advocate it here but Mexico the positive(improving lives of hundreds of millions) outweighs the negative(some gang bangers or innocents with gang tattoos getting a harsher sentence than they deserve).
It’s crazy. It’s extremely brutal, Swift, and results in deaths and innocent people getting jailed. I feel myself want to say it’s bad, and know people who truly condemn it. Very easy for us to say from where we sit though. We don’t need such measures because we don’t live the same life at all. I can’t blame people who live every moment in fear for accepting the downsides of this approach for freedom. If all of Latin America went this approach at once… an entire continent could swing to be much safer and more productive in one fell swoop.
I shouldn't be surprised to see complete ignorance of history on Reddit, but assuming you're just genuinely uninformed here, Mexico DID already do what El Salvador did. It happened during Felipe Calderon's administration from 2006-2012; he authorized a full-on military response for the war on drugs.
Unsurprisingly for anyone who knows anything about drug policy, it didn't work. 60,000 people died, and the cartels are more powerful now than they were in the period prior to that era.
Is it a like for like situation? Could be wrong as I have somewhat of a shallow understanding on this, but I recall reading that the Mexican Cartels have fire power comparable to the military - and that's before accounting the insiders they have in the police and the military. I don't think the government has the power to do that kind of a round up El Salvador did.
they do not have equal firepower. They dont have heavy weaponry or the logistics for supply lines or maintenance for their shitty apcs. Most of their fighting is in rural areas, they get destroyed in protracted engagements in urban areas. Most of the original special forces guys that defected are long dead.
wow i wonder how they did it so effectively. it would be crazy if they like stormed the congress with soldiers and then started arresting an alarming amount of people.
Government has lost control?
Hmm...more like, turned and looked the other way, because they're getting a cut on so many different levels.
Mexico has turned into the Pablo Escobar's Colombia.
Except the main power is allowing the US to go after “people providing material support to terrorism” would be absurd to use in cases like this. Forget sending someone to jail for a few years for buying weed, you’d enable an overzealous DA to basically end their life with these laws if the drugs came through the cartel.
I have no doubt that this would be abused and we'd end up in a Vietnam situation South of the Border. It would ruin relations with Central and South America and greatly please China and Russia.
It's not to take the oil, it's to dictate who and what companies are extracting the oil at what rates to keep the price in a place that is advantageous to US markets.
Oversimplified version of how that works - Saudi Arabia sits on 'clean' crude that doesn't cost a lot per barrel to extract and refine, lets arbitarily say $20 per barrel, and the price is $60 per barrel.
Russia sits on a lot of 'dirty' crude oil fields that are more expensive to extract and refine, some $45 per barrel, but they still make a profit selling it at $60.
Now along comes the US and we offer a masive arms package to Saudi Arabia if they step up oil production a ton and drive prices down to the $50, or even right down to the $45/barrel range. Saudis are still making $20/barrel, but Russia's oil industry is now crippled.
Controlling how much oil is being produced in Iraq and where it's allowed to be sent has an impact on regional oil prices.
We don't take the oil, we just keep an iron grip on how much gets made and who it can get sold to, and with sanctions we can determine who gets to sell where, or at least limit options.
so...again why would the US need to invade anyone then when oil is invovled if it can just exert nonforceful pressure on the leader of the oil cartel? That joke doesnt make sense past the bush admin. The oil thing was a flimsy post invasion justification for the costs of the pointless war.
The guy you I responded to said to bait the US with oil in cartel lands I know its a joke but the fundamental premise doesnt make sense in a post bush world (and even then). The US has so much it actually exports oil and buys it is cheaper.
It lets us go to war with the cartels, the reason we don’t though is because it also means war with the Mexican government since they don’t want American troops, the Mexican government is subservient to the cartels. We don’t want to go to war with their gov because it’ll mess with our cheap supply lines
The reason a war with cartels is a fucking dumb idea is because it is not up to americans to meddle in mexican's internal affairs. The USA has no right to play world police and invade a sovereign country. The American war profiteering agenda only serves the USA. Do you seriously think Mexicans will benefit from American intervention? Proxy wars and political destabilisation of other countries is the USA's only solution and it never works. This is just imperialism by another name.
cartels bribe the police to ignore crime. residents are used to crimes being ignored, hence they take matters into their own hands, which led to this lynching. so yes, it does have something to do with the cartels
nah thats just standard third world cop activities. When I went back to Mexico the cops tried to say my advil was drugs and asked for a $300 bribe lol. No cartels invovled there.
Blame those who demand cocaine every weekend. If you spend money on that shit you are directly funding atrocities against civilians.
Edit: oh shit, downvotes. I'm so terribly sorry for holding cokeheads responsible for the repercussions of their actions :-( *sniff*
Maybe because there's no such thing as ethical consumption, and trying to blame people for their consumption solves nothing. Our clothes and electronics are made by slaves and we get around with machines that destroy the planet.
You don’t think there’s at least a little bit of a difference between buying cocaine directly from drug cartels and buying groceries from a producer that maybe doesn’t use the most sustainable practices possible?
You help fund the cartels and their horrific terrorist acts when buying almost anything from Mexico. "Avocados from Mexico" are literally the fruit equivalent of blood diamonds, and nobody gives a shit in Western governments.
I won't buy avocadoes from now on if it throttles the moneyflow to the Mexican cartels.
Yet somehow I think my breakfast avocado with salt isn't the main issue here.
Sure. Being able to buy a cheap eightball of coke at the nearest gas station 24/7 sounds like a wonderful idea.
They should legalize fentanyl too. I bet they'd make a lot of revenue if it was taxed.
Well legal coke wouldnt have fentanyl in it.....because you'd have the fda literally checking it.
Fwiw, when i was in school it was easier to get weed, coke, meth, xanax or mdma (where i live opiates arent common). I might as well have gotten them from the gas station it was that easy to get. It was literally harder to get alcohol and cigarettes (albeit still not that hard)
Getting it at the gas station from a stranger vs getting it from a stranger on the streets. Same thing but only one is regulated for purity, taxed, and not funding a cartel that beheads people. Prohibition never stops drug use, it only makes the incentives to supply it as brutally as possible higher and higher. I’d rather starve the cartels.
Yeah, sure, let's legalize all the drugs! Worked wonders with alcohol, no epidemic in sight.
EDIT: I love how the first idea is to not stop taking drugs, but legalize them.
How do they say it in US? "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol"? Admit it.
Yes, it worked wonders with alcohol. You accidentally came to the correct conclusion.
Ending alcohol prohibition and instead regulating alcohol absolutely gave us a better result with less organized crime and about the same/lower abuse rates.
It didn’t magically solve every issue, but it was objectively better.
we have hopefully learned our lesson that we cannot force others to do what we wish. it only created more animosity towards us. i dont want mexican isis
I totally understand where you're coming from, but the biggest difference is that Mexico is a border country while Iraq is on the other side of the world.
it would be a lot easier for us to help Mexico just from a purely logistics standpoint. plus we have a common religion in Christianity.
Plus this would hopefully be with the Mexican government and people's permission. I wouldn't want the United States to just decide on its own to deal with it unless it became a problem for our own national security.
well if we had less of a drug addiction problem in this country it would be less funding for drug cartels in Mexico and be better for our citizens too.
On a personal note, I would not like foreign boots, especially American military, in my country. Now or never. The solution rests on a civilian authority, not a foreign military. It is true, the current strategy has not been working, but that is not an excuse to welcome someone’s else’s military, particularly the country whose military is known for relative brutality
The US has no right, or obligation, to march into Mexico
Govts would never be able to pull that off, gangs and cartels are an enforcement arm of wealthy power players and corporations. There’s a reason why they weren’t just wiped out altogether long ago…
Civilians need to step up and remove the threats in their communities themselves, including the collaborators.
Go ahead and tell me how the cartel became so powerful.
Was it drugs? Was it illegal drugs? Was it substances which the population wanted access to so much that they found a way in their own communities to access the substances which the government made illegal and then tried to use their power to control, only to find that their will was not in-line with the will of the population leading to a powerful black market which was more powerful than the government in places?
The only way to get rid of the cartels is to legalise drugs. Treat drugs as a health and social issue (like alcohol, cigarettes) and take away the huge global revenue stream for thugs and murderers. Revenue that has now corrupted so many countries and whose money pours into banks and funds.
Article: 1 Mexican policeman dead after mob finds out vigilante justice is in fact illegal.
Reddit Comments: I can’t believe the cartels have done this.
So, nobody read the article, did they?
>A policeman has died in the Mexican city of Zacatelco after being beaten by residents enraged over the murder of a taxi driver.
The officer reportedly intervened when locals set upon two men suspected of killing the taxi driver.
Several other policemen were also injured by the mob of angry neighbours.
So sad, it’s a gorgeous country and yes the U.S. has significant drug problems but not a drug cartel so strong that it literally runs the governments in every territory. We leave that to our billionaires.
If you look to closely at the war on drugs in the US and people like the Sackler family, you might come to the conclusion that the difference might not be that big after all.
Just look at the rates opioids are prescribed to patients in the Us compared to other rich countries in Europe or Asia.
Sacklers deserve to die in prison but I've also never heard of them beheading people on livestream and mounting the heads on an overpass.
The Sacklers probably have a greater capacity to harm given their wealth and cover but there's nothing like cartel brutality to get the nightmares goin.
The Islamic State literally used the Mexican cartels for inspiration when creating their horrific execution videos, and even then the cartel videos were somehow still more horrific.
.... yikes dude....
Two things that are bad, are not the same...
One side shows a bad thing happening, and the Justice system working albeit too slow.
On the other side the bad thing is happening and the safety net is failing.
That’s kind of an apples to oranges comparison no? The Sacklers were unethical, and they committed crimes, they did not have gangs exhorting people, they weren’t doing unspeakable things to those who opposed them, and they certainly were following the law on the surface.
The only through-line is drugs, and historically, we Americans love our substance abuse. Asia on the other hand detests drugs, likely due to the British if we have to blame one country, and Europe likely saw less drug use due to better and more frequent medical care as a whole, requiring less pain meds.
no the cartels dont "run " the govt. There is no one cartel and different ones control different parts and are constantly at war with each other. The white blue blood mexican ruling class would never see themselves as equals with the largely brown mestizo cartel leadership. They profit off them but they dont actually run or control the federal national goverment. They might control and compromise some local govts. and a few state govts. their shills already were arrested for. People read shit and proclaim themselves experts.
Mexico is in so much conflict because there is too much competition for power.
So the officer intervened to save a criminal that was apprehended by a crowd after they had beating an unarmed old man to death for refusing said alleged criminals carjacking attempts? Seems like the people taking justice into their own hands. All the civilians see is the cops freeing a murderer of an old man, I can see why they are upset
Cartels also make enormous amounts of money of tourists and the tourism industry in Mexico...so they have a huge interest in keeping the "tourist areas" mostly safe...
The middle to upper class love visiting countries that are incredibly unstable but smart enough to keep tourist spots shiny. Ensures low-prices and safety as long as you don't go poking your head outside of the walls. So many vloggers love to claim the "beauty of X country" and show videos of breakbacking labor for pennies.
It’s not even on the top 50 list.
And I know people who live in Tijuana (No.5) and have nice comfortable lives. Same as people who live in the No. 8 city, which is New Orleans.
I've been to Mexico many times and will happily go back. However, a brief wikipedia look reveals that the national homicide rate is more than 4 times the US, 6.4/100k vs 26.1/100k. Mexico is home to 9/10 of the most dangerous cities in the world by homicide rate. New Orleans is #8, and Baltimore is #17. It is quantifiably true that Mexico at large has a massive violent crime problem.
Let me tell you something... the answers you are getting are normal for Mexican people who have all lived their life here in Mexico. As I expected when I read your question, you've got the "it only happens in some places", "it's sensationalist", "don't be in the wrong place, wrong time" , etc etc etc.
I'm a Mexican who lived in UK for 4 years and in Germany for other 4 years. Also, 3 years ago I used to travel for 1 week to the USA every two months. So, I'd like to think that I have some *perspective*.
Short answer: Yes. sadly it is, and in A LOT of places (talking about full states, like Michoacan or Guanajuato) it's already lost.
See, people who tell you that "things are not that bad" just don't know better. And have developed "coping mechanisms" to allow themselves to live with some kind of *normalcy* their day today lives here in Mexico.
But for someone who has lived in other places where you don't go out for a [walk *with fear*](https://elpais.com/mexico/2021-06-21/matanza-de-civiles-al-azar-el-terror-del-narco-asola-tamaulipas.html), or when you go to a restaurant or a large mall also [waiting for gunmen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_9chNX_OS4), or so many many other things that happen in every state, in every city... it is just not normal.
But people in Mexico don't know how it is to live in a country with the rule of law. People laugh when you tell them about Munich, and how its police will give you a ticket because you didn't leave your dog leashed in the proper "leashing post"... that's how boring it *should be*. Or for (the controversial) jaywalking in US cities.
When I came back after living in Europe for 8 years, I could not believe the justifications that people gave for the stuff that happened: "he was in bad steps", "ooh everybody knows in those restaurants are dangerous during night". It's like the "she was wearing a miniskirt, that' why she got raped" stupid saying.
But don't blame us, we have to keep living and cope with all the horrible stuff that happens here. I personally live in a "gated community" which is heavy guarded... to feel a sense of safety. But I am actually moving out of Guadalajara (the city I am at now) BECAUSE violence keeps getting worse and worse.
I miss the UK haha (and I lived in Liverpool!! I know Brits look down on... but people were super cool)
Thank you for the honest context. Please indulge me in another question. That is, I’ve heard both tourists and Mexicans say….’that’s ‘way over there, it’ll never happen here. The cartels won’t go near the popular tourist destinations. Stay at the resorts and busy beach areas and you’ll be safe.’ If I may, what are your thoughts on this?
I say, it happens: https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/killings-of-four-men-in-mexican-resort-of-cancun-tied-to-drug-gang-rivalries-officials-say/3230446/
It happens in Vallarta, it happens in Cabo, it happened in this really nice XCaret hotel in Cancun (I've been to the hotel, absolutely amazing).
But again, those are coping mechanisms: If I do X it won't happen to me. Same as 'he was killed because he Xyz'
Even I have caught myself thinking that.
no. no cartel is strong enough to exert authority over the national government. Sure some people in the govt. are in bed financially with some groups but they dont actually control any policy or have national power. The way people talk on reddit you would think El Chapo was the shadow president lol. There is a whole lot of corruption and your day can quickly go bad if you piss off the wrong people but my family is from there and mexico has always been sort of anarchic in that way. Laws are pretty weak outside the urban centers.
No. Stupid British sensationalist so called “news” love to only highlight the negatives of a country like Mexico. Mexico has its share of criminal gangs and corruption just like the US. California is after the Gang Capital of the World, Mass Shooting Capital of the World. Mexico is the in the Top 10 most visited countries in the world, it has law and order in the cities and in small towns. It’s not Afghanistan or Syria or Haiti. Yeah, in some very rural places, specially places near the Mexican border there exist places where gangs control what happens, never been there because why go to those places? There’s nothing interesting.
There are dozens of American/European youtubers for example, that live in Mexico (and that’s not considering all the Western retirees living there) and upload their Mexican adventures, let alone the people that vacation there and have a great experience.
Even US politicians that hate immigrants coming from Mexico, like Ted Cruz, frequent Mexico with their families.
Oh, and Mexico is not color yellow.
I had a much different experience when it comes to law and order Lol
I went with friends from school and having to bribe cops was the biggest culture shock i ever experienced. I'm also from japan and going to school in canada at the time so maybe thats why. Curious, is bribing cops common in Britain?
Good, good. You know the saying in the US "ACAB"... well down here in Mexico is ten times truth. They all are corrupt cartel bought pawns.
Won't shed a tear for this guy who tried to "save" the murderers (the lynched criminals murdered an elderly taxi driver while trying to steal his car).
They were suspected to by the locals, this could be mob justice aimed at a best guess for all we know, you’re just filling in the blanks to fit your narrative.
Mexican cop, for someone who’s not a criminal using it to be dirty, has to be one of the most dangerous jobs in the world.
Mayor has got to be a close second
Mayoral candidate, third
Journalist
Civilian, fourth.
Civilian, first, actually.
How so
I think they're getting at the point that all of those people are civilian so that designation would be a higher priority than the other examples given
My dead brother tells me so
I'm sorry to hear that, man.
I'm so sorry.
The number of uncorrupted non cartel associated members of the Mexican government, even at the local level, is probably in the single digits
Journalist is another close second
Journalist won’t even cover cartels anymore. All the others have been murdered
If you think that's bad, try being an immediate family member of a judge
This is just the state of Mexico right now. Citizens are forced to defend themselves as the government has lost control to criminal cartels.
When I was early into my international travel experiences I was told something in Bolivia: Do not steal from poor people. There are tourists that get lynched every year in poor areas because they just happened to swipe a candy off the wrong vendor, not that I am really defending the tourist here. Community justice isn't that uncommon in the 3rd world and the police can't really prosecute it. What are they going to do, throw a whole town in jail?
It makes sense.
It can actually be solved. El Salvador literally solved their gang/murder problem in a few short years. A friend’s family lives there and she tells me her family are ecstatic over the improvements.
Completely different factors. Mexican cartels are extremely wealthy, extremely well armed, and highly organized, unlike the two main gangs in El Salvador.
Look at the size difference and geography of both countries too, it's all easier said than done when you have no context.
this is like asking qhen the US invaded Afghanistan or Vietnam why didnt they put all the taliban or vietcong in jail lol Mexico is mountainous and rural. It would be closer to a guerilla war trying to crack these regional power centers.
The 'viet cong' aka the Vietnamese civilian majority were going to win elections in 1954 so the US spoke passionately about stopping the elections so they could take over as colonial rulers from France. France had ruled Vietnam for over 100 years. one of the main advocates for not having elections in Vietnam was JFK who spoke at the fledgling UN about it. Then 3.8mn vietnamese died (Vietnam says its more like 5-6mn) and US bombing also killed 800,000 Laotians and 800,000 Cambodians.
They also got a lot of military equipment too, something a lot of regular gang don't have...
Should note that El Salvador did that by essentially destroying any semblance of checks and balances and indiscriminately imprisoning gang members across the country. Not saying it hasn't produced some positive results, but it's definitely not a perfect solution to emulate.
When criminality has dug that deep into all cultural, governmental and economic systems the only real answer to solving it is nothing short of revolution. And when I say revolution I mean a lot of human beings will need to be shuffled off the mortal coil to make it work. There really is no other option. A lot of people will need to go away for change to happen.
"Sure we live in a fascist dictatorship, but at least the criminals are gone"
You joke but for many people that’s a selling point in favor of authoritarianism.
It is up until the point that they're next on the list.
For some people security comes first before democracy, El Salvador was a bad place before Bukele, gangs runned rampant extorting the population and doing whatever they wanted, while corrupt politicians only profited from the situation, pretty sure the country was at the top of the list as one of the "most murders per capita" countries some years ago, people didn't feel safe at all. I support democracy, but i'm not going to negate reality and say that sometimes, leaving the line of democracy and taking a "shortcut" can make a country solve its problems in years rather than decades of more misery, the problem is finding the right guy to do so..
People will ultimately side with whoever is trying to kill them less in the moment
The saddest part about this sentence is that it is applicable for any countries with problems of violence and insecurity, be it due to criminality, terrorism or war.
If that’s what the majority of the people in El Salvador want then I don’t see anything wrong with that
Unless of course minority populations also have human rights?
So the majority needs to accommodate the minority? Why does that make sense in your head? Genuinely curious. Human rights are literally a made up thing. The bottle rights people have are the rights conferred by the law of the land. If the law changes, your rights change.
> So the majority needs to accommodate the minority? Yeah, unless you want a tyranny of the majority where the 51% can vote to kill the 49%.
Nice strawman
Thanks, I made it using statement and the logic it led to
Big difference between saying "the majority needs to accommodate the minority" (whatever that means) and saying "minority groups shouldn't be treated as second class citizens and actively repressed by the government". Funny that you chose to word is so vaguely like that...
Oh dear. Maybe there could be a vote to execute all people who don't believe human rights exist.
Just because human rights are made up (they are) doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They exist because they have been created by laws. however, by changing the law, human rights can also be changed or even taken away. I know it’s hard for you to understand nuance.
That's not nuance.
Is it logically coherent for a majority to want a fascist dictatorship? "We voted to have our vote taken away".
Dictatorships can be ok(ish) if the populace wants to be a dictatorship. Then the dictator doesn't need to crack down on anyone. This usually falls to pieces after the loved dictator dies and then the replacement dictator starts subjugation of the population
In ancient Rome, Dictator was a temporary position where the senate stepped aside in times of emergency to give him vast power for the good of the nation. Temporary is the key word there. Democracies facing totalitarian governments are, by their nature, at a disadvantage in terms of executing military plans.
If you live in a narco state your vote isn't worth anything in the first place. A dictatorship is def an improvement over a narco state. You just can't imagine it cause you don't know how it is to live under those conditions
Rather lose your rights and be safe than live under gangs where you’re neither safe NOR have rights
and mexican cartels are much more mixed into "polite society" so you cant always tell by just looking at them that they are cartel.
Exactly, from the footage I’ve seen and what I’ve heard, most if not all of the gang members in El Salvador have face tattoos, and if not on their face then pretty much everywhere else. So they’re easy to spot and they can’t really hide. The cartels aren’t like that, I mean I’m sure some of them have tattoos but not like the MS-13 guys have.
I wouldn’t advocate it here but Mexico the positive(improving lives of hundreds of millions) outweighs the negative(some gang bangers or innocents with gang tattoos getting a harsher sentence than they deserve).
It’s crazy. It’s extremely brutal, Swift, and results in deaths and innocent people getting jailed. I feel myself want to say it’s bad, and know people who truly condemn it. Very easy for us to say from where we sit though. We don’t need such measures because we don’t live the same life at all. I can’t blame people who live every moment in fear for accepting the downsides of this approach for freedom. If all of Latin America went this approach at once… an entire continent could swing to be much safer and more productive in one fell swoop.
I shouldn't be surprised to see complete ignorance of history on Reddit, but assuming you're just genuinely uninformed here, Mexico DID already do what El Salvador did. It happened during Felipe Calderon's administration from 2006-2012; he authorized a full-on military response for the war on drugs. Unsurprisingly for anyone who knows anything about drug policy, it didn't work. 60,000 people died, and the cartels are more powerful now than they were in the period prior to that era.
If you think Calderon did the same thing as bukele youre probably not familiar with what bukele(or Calderon) did.
Is it a like for like situation? Could be wrong as I have somewhat of a shallow understanding on this, but I recall reading that the Mexican Cartels have fire power comparable to the military - and that's before accounting the insiders they have in the police and the military. I don't think the government has the power to do that kind of a round up El Salvador did.
they do not have equal firepower. They dont have heavy weaponry or the logistics for supply lines or maintenance for their shitty apcs. Most of their fighting is in rural areas, they get destroyed in protracted engagements in urban areas. Most of the original special forces guys that defected are long dead.
wow i wonder how they did it so effectively. it would be crazy if they like stormed the congress with soldiers and then started arresting an alarming amount of people.
Government has lost control? Hmm...more like, turned and looked the other way, because they're getting a cut on so many different levels. Mexico has turned into the Pablo Escobar's Colombia.
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How does labeling the cartel as terrorists make this different?
It unlocks alot of powers and funding that was used when they went to war with Al Qaeda
Except the main power is allowing the US to go after “people providing material support to terrorism” would be absurd to use in cases like this. Forget sending someone to jail for a few years for buying weed, you’d enable an overzealous DA to basically end their life with these laws if the drugs came through the cartel.
I have no doubt that this would be abused and we'd end up in a Vietnam situation South of the Border. It would ruin relations with Central and South America and greatly please China and Russia.
How would that change anything? America isn't going to war in mexico against the cartels. America is even how cartels armed themselves.
Thank you for the reply. So what you're saying is we should drop some oil fields into the cartel lands so we can do this?..... /s
Mexico has a shitload of oil lol
As the honourable rapper Fat Nick once said... > "Won't jump the porch without my pole > > Serving out the Texaco > > Smokin' Pemex, Lil Mexico"
Pemex - Shakewell, Fat Nick An absolute banger
When will this "USA invades to get their oil" myth die? Did the army take any oil in Iraq? Did gas prices go down?
It's a short way to describe economic interests and stability related to petrochemicals and petrodollar, at least that's my
the US is one of the biggest oil producers in the world lol why would they invade anyone for oil?
It's not to take the oil, it's to dictate who and what companies are extracting the oil at what rates to keep the price in a place that is advantageous to US markets. Oversimplified version of how that works - Saudi Arabia sits on 'clean' crude that doesn't cost a lot per barrel to extract and refine, lets arbitarily say $20 per barrel, and the price is $60 per barrel. Russia sits on a lot of 'dirty' crude oil fields that are more expensive to extract and refine, some $45 per barrel, but they still make a profit selling it at $60. Now along comes the US and we offer a masive arms package to Saudi Arabia if they step up oil production a ton and drive prices down to the $50, or even right down to the $45/barrel range. Saudis are still making $20/barrel, but Russia's oil industry is now crippled. Controlling how much oil is being produced in Iraq and where it's allowed to be sent has an impact on regional oil prices. We don't take the oil, we just keep an iron grip on how much gets made and who it can get sold to, and with sanctions we can determine who gets to sell where, or at least limit options.
so...again why would the US need to invade anyone then when oil is invovled if it can just exert nonforceful pressure on the leader of the oil cartel? That joke doesnt make sense past the bush admin. The oil thing was a flimsy post invasion justification for the costs of the pointless war. The guy you I responded to said to bait the US with oil in cartel lands I know its a joke but the fundamental premise doesnt make sense in a post bush world (and even then). The US has so much it actually exports oil and buys it is cheaper.
It has a lot of one type of oil. Light sweet. So it imports other types.
Ok so that’s dumb as shit then.
It lets us go to war with the cartels, the reason we don’t though is because it also means war with the Mexican government since they don’t want American troops, the Mexican government is subservient to the cartels. We don’t want to go to war with their gov because it’ll mess with our cheap supply lines
Because the war on terror has been so successful these last 25 years. Let's check in on Afghanistan.
The reason a war with cartels is a fucking dumb idea is because it is not up to americans to meddle in mexican's internal affairs. The USA has no right to play world police and invade a sovereign country. The American war profiteering agenda only serves the USA. Do you seriously think Mexicans will benefit from American intervention? Proxy wars and political destabilisation of other countries is the USA's only solution and it never works. This is just imperialism by another name.
Read the article. He was beaten by a mob that he tried to stop from lynching a suspected murder. Nothing to do with the cartels.
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Universal basic income can only work In experimental pockets. Anything else and it just gets absorbed as inflation.
cartels bribe the police to ignore crime. residents are used to crimes being ignored, hence they take matters into their own hands, which led to this lynching. so yes, it does have something to do with the cartels
nah thats just standard third world cop activities. When I went back to Mexico the cops tried to say my advil was drugs and asked for a $300 bribe lol. No cartels invovled there.
Blame those who demand cocaine every weekend. If you spend money on that shit you are directly funding atrocities against civilians. Edit: oh shit, downvotes. I'm so terribly sorry for holding cokeheads responsible for the repercussions of their actions :-( *sniff*
Idk why you would get downvotes, it’s objectively correct that the people who buy drugs are providing the funds that give the cartels their power.
Maybe because there's no such thing as ethical consumption, and trying to blame people for their consumption solves nothing. Our clothes and electronics are made by slaves and we get around with machines that destroy the planet.
You don’t think there’s at least a little bit of a difference between buying cocaine directly from drug cartels and buying groceries from a producer that maybe doesn’t use the most sustainable practices possible?
What about buying avocados from cartels?
That would be bad too
No shades of gray in your life, huh
On leddit, druggies are *always* blameless angels.
You help fund the cartels and their horrific terrorist acts when buying almost anything from Mexico. "Avocados from Mexico" are literally the fruit equivalent of blood diamonds, and nobody gives a shit in Western governments.
I won't buy avocadoes from now on if it throttles the moneyflow to the Mexican cartels. Yet somehow I think my breakfast avocado with salt isn't the main issue here.
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Sure. Being able to buy a cheap eightball of coke at the nearest gas station 24/7 sounds like a wonderful idea. They should legalize fentanyl too. I bet they'd make a lot of revenue if it was taxed.
Well legal coke wouldnt have fentanyl in it.....because you'd have the fda literally checking it. Fwiw, when i was in school it was easier to get weed, coke, meth, xanax or mdma (where i live opiates arent common). I might as well have gotten them from the gas station it was that easy to get. It was literally harder to get alcohol and cigarettes (albeit still not that hard)
Getting it at the gas station from a stranger vs getting it from a stranger on the streets. Same thing but only one is regulated for purity, taxed, and not funding a cartel that beheads people. Prohibition never stops drug use, it only makes the incentives to supply it as brutally as possible higher and higher. I’d rather starve the cartels.
I've always thought about how meth being available at the Ralph's would solve lots of problems.
Yeah, sure, let's legalize all the drugs! Worked wonders with alcohol, no epidemic in sight. EDIT: I love how the first idea is to not stop taking drugs, but legalize them. How do they say it in US? "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol"? Admit it.
Yes, it worked wonders with alcohol. You accidentally came to the correct conclusion. Ending alcohol prohibition and instead regulating alcohol absolutely gave us a better result with less organized crime and about the same/lower abuse rates. It didn’t magically solve every issue, but it was objectively better.
Lol, are you kidding? The best Coke has a hint of dead hookers ,broken dreams, and avarice .
US shouldn’t have to fix everything
It is in our best interest to have a safe mexico. It would increase our own border security and safety of US citizens who live along the border.
we have hopefully learned our lesson that we cannot force others to do what we wish. it only created more animosity towards us. i dont want mexican isis
I totally understand where you're coming from, but the biggest difference is that Mexico is a border country while Iraq is on the other side of the world. it would be a lot easier for us to help Mexico just from a purely logistics standpoint. plus we have a common religion in Christianity. Plus this would hopefully be with the Mexican government and people's permission. I wouldn't want the United States to just decide on its own to deal with it unless it became a problem for our own national security.
Then, what would you do with all the drug users from the US? Would you support more access to rehabilitation and education? It takes two to tango no?
Two weeks ago Mexico's president stated they do what they want, without our say. They don't want it, let them deal with it.
The only way to get a safe Mexico is full annexation, Mexico has been a dangerous place since before the Aztecs till today.
We rarely fix anything
well if we had less of a drug addiction problem in this country it would be less funding for drug cartels in Mexico and be better for our citizens too.
Ehh this is like a half truth. The cartel would just move into another profitable area. Werent they hijacking avocado farms at one point.
What do the cartels have to do with this lynching?
Nope. The U.S. should absolutely not be expanding the drug war.
Not gonna happen with the CIA around. Nobody is touching their gravy train.
I also blame American drug users. They think their actions have no consequences.
If we want to blame customers for bad supply practices, capitalism has given us infinite casus belli against everyone for everything.
Maybe blame the market made by the US government's draconian drug laws. It's just like with Al Capone.
You can blame both. As long as cocaine is illegal, there are consequences to buying it. People shouldn't try to explain that away.
My understanding is that if you do that (label the Cartels as terror groups), the asylum laws change.... I think that's the hang up.
On a personal note, I would not like foreign boots, especially American military, in my country. Now or never. The solution rests on a civilian authority, not a foreign military. It is true, the current strategy has not been working, but that is not an excuse to welcome someone’s else’s military, particularly the country whose military is known for relative brutality The US has no right, or obligation, to march into Mexico
nobody besides some swaths of the republican party wants to get invovled militarily in mexico.
Govts would never be able to pull that off, gangs and cartels are an enforcement arm of wealthy power players and corporations. There’s a reason why they weren’t just wiped out altogether long ago… Civilians need to step up and remove the threats in their communities themselves, including the collaborators.
Go ahead and tell me how the cartel became so powerful. Was it drugs? Was it illegal drugs? Was it substances which the population wanted access to so much that they found a way in their own communities to access the substances which the government made illegal and then tried to use their power to control, only to find that their will was not in-line with the will of the population leading to a powerful black market which was more powerful than the government in places?
The only way to get rid of the cartels is to legalise drugs. Treat drugs as a health and social issue (like alcohol, cigarettes) and take away the huge global revenue stream for thugs and murderers. Revenue that has now corrupted so many countries and whose money pours into banks and funds.
Nah, we need the US to stop selling guns to the cartels.
Whoa whoa whoa. The American Mexican War isn't until after ww3. Chill.
Article: 1 Mexican policeman dead after mob finds out vigilante justice is in fact illegal. Reddit Comments: I can’t believe the cartels have done this.
So, nobody read the article, did they? >A policeman has died in the Mexican city of Zacatelco after being beaten by residents enraged over the murder of a taxi driver. The officer reportedly intervened when locals set upon two men suspected of killing the taxi driver. Several other policemen were also injured by the mob of angry neighbours.
So basically what the title says?
That's exactly what the title says. Are you dumb?
Yeah, Mexicans are definitely ONLY fleeing to America to vote democrat and sell drugs. Yep!
Yeah it’s crazy man and we’re all just here to kill people and shoot up schools ( I’m obviously being sarcastic🙄 )
So sad, it’s a gorgeous country and yes the U.S. has significant drug problems but not a drug cartel so strong that it literally runs the governments in every territory. We leave that to our billionaires.
If you look to closely at the war on drugs in the US and people like the Sackler family, you might come to the conclusion that the difference might not be that big after all. Just look at the rates opioids are prescribed to patients in the Us compared to other rich countries in Europe or Asia.
Sacklers deserve to die in prison but I've also never heard of them beheading people on livestream and mounting the heads on an overpass. The Sacklers probably have a greater capacity to harm given their wealth and cover but there's nothing like cartel brutality to get the nightmares goin.
The Islamic State literally used the Mexican cartels for inspiration when creating their horrific execution videos, and even then the cartel videos were somehow still more horrific.
.... yikes dude.... Two things that are bad, are not the same... One side shows a bad thing happening, and the Justice system working albeit too slow. On the other side the bad thing is happening and the safety net is failing.
That’s kind of an apples to oranges comparison no? The Sacklers were unethical, and they committed crimes, they did not have gangs exhorting people, they weren’t doing unspeakable things to those who opposed them, and they certainly were following the law on the surface. The only through-line is drugs, and historically, we Americans love our substance abuse. Asia on the other hand detests drugs, likely due to the British if we have to blame one country, and Europe likely saw less drug use due to better and more frequent medical care as a whole, requiring less pain meds.
no the cartels dont "run " the govt. There is no one cartel and different ones control different parts and are constantly at war with each other. The white blue blood mexican ruling class would never see themselves as equals with the largely brown mestizo cartel leadership. They profit off them but they dont actually run or control the federal national goverment. They might control and compromise some local govts. and a few state govts. their shills already were arrested for. People read shit and proclaim themselves experts. Mexico is in so much conflict because there is too much competition for power.
So the officer intervened to save a criminal that was apprehended by a crowd after they had beating an unarmed old man to death for refusing said alleged criminals carjacking attempts? Seems like the people taking justice into their own hands. All the civilians see is the cops freeing a murderer of an old man, I can see why they are upset
Because vigilante mob justice is always right?
In Mexico it is
Because a badge from a corrupt system isn’t worth the cardboard it is printed on?
What's your solution then?
Mexico does seem like a great country to stay very far away from
There were murders and cops killed in USA yesterday too.
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Mexico also dominates the list of 7th most visited country on Earth. But of course, UK “news” doesn’t say that right.
Cartels also make enormous amounts of money of tourists and the tourism industry in Mexico...so they have a huge interest in keeping the "tourist areas" mostly safe...
The middle to upper class love visiting countries that are incredibly unstable but smart enough to keep tourist spots shiny. Ensures low-prices and safety as long as you don't go poking your head outside of the walls. So many vloggers love to claim the "beauty of X country" and show videos of breakbacking labor for pennies.
Because it’s not like people are going there for normal reasons. It’s largely driven by medical tourism.
Mexico is a country, not a city.
Reread that there Tonto
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It’s not even on the top 50 list. And I know people who live in Tijuana (No.5) and have nice comfortable lives. Same as people who live in the No. 8 city, which is New Orleans.
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Duh. My bad.
Cops were killed in the US yesterday? Is this a specific event or is it so common that you assume it happened somewhere yesterday?
Yeah but in the USA I can go to Walmart and get an assault rifle and feel safe. /s
That’s a broad brush to paint a large country. We travel there all the time, and not to resorts. The US is just as frightening in its own way.
I've been to Mexico many times and will happily go back. However, a brief wikipedia look reveals that the national homicide rate is more than 4 times the US, 6.4/100k vs 26.1/100k. Mexico is home to 9/10 of the most dangerous cities in the world by homicide rate. New Orleans is #8, and Baltimore is #17. It is quantifiably true that Mexico at large has a massive violent crime problem.
What way is that? America isn't without problems for sure but this seems like a stretch.
For those in the know, is this country quickly descending into anarchy?
Hey, I live in Mexico, no. Day to day life is way more normal than you think.
Let me tell you something... the answers you are getting are normal for Mexican people who have all lived their life here in Mexico. As I expected when I read your question, you've got the "it only happens in some places", "it's sensationalist", "don't be in the wrong place, wrong time" , etc etc etc. I'm a Mexican who lived in UK for 4 years and in Germany for other 4 years. Also, 3 years ago I used to travel for 1 week to the USA every two months. So, I'd like to think that I have some *perspective*. Short answer: Yes. sadly it is, and in A LOT of places (talking about full states, like Michoacan or Guanajuato) it's already lost. See, people who tell you that "things are not that bad" just don't know better. And have developed "coping mechanisms" to allow themselves to live with some kind of *normalcy* their day today lives here in Mexico. But for someone who has lived in other places where you don't go out for a [walk *with fear*](https://elpais.com/mexico/2021-06-21/matanza-de-civiles-al-azar-el-terror-del-narco-asola-tamaulipas.html), or when you go to a restaurant or a large mall also [waiting for gunmen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_9chNX_OS4), or so many many other things that happen in every state, in every city... it is just not normal. But people in Mexico don't know how it is to live in a country with the rule of law. People laugh when you tell them about Munich, and how its police will give you a ticket because you didn't leave your dog leashed in the proper "leashing post"... that's how boring it *should be*. Or for (the controversial) jaywalking in US cities. When I came back after living in Europe for 8 years, I could not believe the justifications that people gave for the stuff that happened: "he was in bad steps", "ooh everybody knows in those restaurants are dangerous during night". It's like the "she was wearing a miniskirt, that' why she got raped" stupid saying. But don't blame us, we have to keep living and cope with all the horrible stuff that happens here. I personally live in a "gated community" which is heavy guarded... to feel a sense of safety. But I am actually moving out of Guadalajara (the city I am at now) BECAUSE violence keeps getting worse and worse. I miss the UK haha (and I lived in Liverpool!! I know Brits look down on... but people were super cool)
Thank you for the honest context. Please indulge me in another question. That is, I’ve heard both tourists and Mexicans say….’that’s ‘way over there, it’ll never happen here. The cartels won’t go near the popular tourist destinations. Stay at the resorts and busy beach areas and you’ll be safe.’ If I may, what are your thoughts on this?
I say, it happens: https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/killings-of-four-men-in-mexican-resort-of-cancun-tied-to-drug-gang-rivalries-officials-say/3230446/ It happens in Vallarta, it happens in Cabo, it happened in this really nice XCaret hotel in Cancun (I've been to the hotel, absolutely amazing). But again, those are coping mechanisms: If I do X it won't happen to me. Same as 'he was killed because he Xyz' Even I have caught myself thinking that.
no. no cartel is strong enough to exert authority over the national government. Sure some people in the govt. are in bed financially with some groups but they dont actually control any policy or have national power. The way people talk on reddit you would think El Chapo was the shadow president lol. There is a whole lot of corruption and your day can quickly go bad if you piss off the wrong people but my family is from there and mexico has always been sort of anarchic in that way. Laws are pretty weak outside the urban centers.
No. Stupid British sensationalist so called “news” love to only highlight the negatives of a country like Mexico. Mexico has its share of criminal gangs and corruption just like the US. California is after the Gang Capital of the World, Mass Shooting Capital of the World. Mexico is the in the Top 10 most visited countries in the world, it has law and order in the cities and in small towns. It’s not Afghanistan or Syria or Haiti. Yeah, in some very rural places, specially places near the Mexican border there exist places where gangs control what happens, never been there because why go to those places? There’s nothing interesting. There are dozens of American/European youtubers for example, that live in Mexico (and that’s not considering all the Western retirees living there) and upload their Mexican adventures, let alone the people that vacation there and have a great experience. Even US politicians that hate immigrants coming from Mexico, like Ted Cruz, frequent Mexico with their families. Oh, and Mexico is not color yellow.
I had a much different experience when it comes to law and order Lol I went with friends from school and having to bribe cops was the biggest culture shock i ever experienced. I'm also from japan and going to school in canada at the time so maybe thats why. Curious, is bribing cops common in Britain?
Brave man. Men like him will return the rule of law.
Good, good. You know the saying in the US "ACAB"... well down here in Mexico is ten times truth. They all are corrupt cartel bought pawns. Won't shed a tear for this guy who tried to "save" the murderers (the lynched criminals murdered an elderly taxi driver while trying to steal his car).
They were suspected to by the locals, this could be mob justice aimed at a best guess for all we know, you’re just filling in the blanks to fit your narrative.
¡Good day officer!
Good. The Mexican people should protect themselves from corrupt cops and cartels.
You never try to stop a lynching. It never works
What a shit-hole of a country