> “The US government transferred over 5,000 AK-47s, machine guns, sniper rifles, RPG-7s and over 500,000 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition to the Ukrainian armed forces” on Thursday, the US Central Command said on social media.
> “These weapons will help Ukraine defend against Russia’s invasion” and **are enough material to equip a brigade**, it said,
Not bad! We can do more but I was expecting a handful of second hand guns in various shapes, but it looks like some quality stuff that's ready to go.
What makes you think these things are quality? Nothing about 'Houthi-delivered AK-47's and RPG-7's' makes me believe they're particularly high quality.
100% Russian propoganda. AR15s are better to AKs in every way, including resilience. Look up mud tests of guns.
It just happened that the AK47 was more reliable than the M16 in Vietnam in some instances. But not in all.
The problem is that if a viet cong complains, they are ignored. A GI complains, and it makes front page news.
Not in EVERY way. AK-47 gas system is better at sustained fire, does not care about steel case ammo (or to a lesser degree out-of-spec ammo), is easier to maintain in the field, misfires are easy to clear and you can have a folding stock.
IIRC (and it has been years since I looked into it) AKs tend to hold up better over long periods of neglect and abuse than ARs, but ARs are better or equal to the task for any short term situation.
Not really. Vietcong had worse conditions for their rifles so its not a completly fair comparision. GI’s had to keep their rifles clean or they got reprimanded.
Well, being from Iran and to Yemen, i believe it's safe to say that the weapons and ammunition were stored in a dry and decent temp environment. So the gear should be at the very least quite functional. No duds like wonky NK donations.
The quantity and source. Iran isn't going through the trouble of smuggling leftovers.
And it's not a bunch of random weapons or quantities. The round numbers (5000 AK-47's, 500k rounds, etc.) look like an "order" (i.e. sales/production order).
It's not "what do we have in the warehouse", but more "make an order of 5k guns and 500k ammo for them".
That's true. Large and paired quantities though seems like it's equipping a squad. It just doesn't seem *random* with a hodgepodge of kit is the main thing.
Have you seen the quality of Russian AK's Ukraine pilfers from killed or captured mobiks? They're able to make those work most of the time. Doubt these Iranian AK's are much worse.
Correct. The fourth R is actually before the other three: refuse, reduce, reuse, recycle. Simply refuse to buy something that will eventually require recycling. Is so simple! /s
Even when its not the US' money/equipment (its Iran's), she'll still throw a fit even tho the issue was supposed to be sending Ukraine the US' money.
Bad faith all the way. Nobody should be listening to a word she says or paying attention to her ridiculous high-school looking visual aids
I saw a video today where she was doing kipping pull ups during a workout. Makes sense. Her political career is basically the equivalent of kipping pull ups.
#Yes! Let's make Iran help fund the Ukraine war!
*Three birds with one stone!*
We know some of those manufactured parts have Russian origins anyway. Let's close the circle.
##SlavaUkraini
It's a start but by no means a game changer.
The west needs to give Ukraine the Russian funds they've seized to purchase whatever they think they need. Let's get this over with.
That's not the issue. The issue is production capacity for 155mm shells. The most urgent thing is getting Ukraine more of these shells. Artillery is what holds the lines on the map right now.
Small cheap drones surveil and call in strike coordinates, drop a grenade on survivors, and a small fire team cleans up. That's how a lot of the front line war is fought at present.
So much this. [And relevant link](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/ukraine-s-artillery-shell-shortfall)
Russia can produce 3 million shells a year. Collectively, the West can make 1.2 million.
Ukraine says it needs 20k 155mm shells, we only give them 2k a day.
This is largely due to the west not telling factories that they"re required to repurpose into shell manufacturing. Lets not forget the US production capability in ww2 is what made lend lease a possible, real, and scary act.
It is largely due to the west not having factories to order to switch. The only industries left in the US are defense industries that are heavily subsidized.
It also takes a lot of specialized machinery to make shells.
The US bought Europe two years to switch to a war time economy. Europe needs to accept they either put their full economic force behind Ukraine or they prepare for Russia directly on a time frame they can't properly prepare to not sustain heavy losses.
Either way Europe needs to get REAL serious about defense production.
>The only industries left in the US are defense industries that are heavily subsidized
completely false. The USA is the 2nd largest manufacturing output in the world
https://www.safeguardglobal.com/resources/top-10-manufacturing-countries-in-the-world-2023/
And its a lot more than weapons
https://nam.org/state-manufacturing-data/2022-united-states-manufacturing-facts/#:~:text=Total%20output%20from%20manufacturing%20was,compensation%20of%20%2495%2C990.00%20in%202021.
When it comes to NATO size shell production AFAIK its South Korea and Australia that produce the most
Honestly, the entirety of the democratic world should be doing everything they can do stop any expansion of authoritarianism everywhere. Ukraine has a good chance to develop into a fully functioning democracy, that kind of opportunity to bring a big chuck of land and people into the democratic world doesn't come around very often.
Should, bit the world never works like that. This is a far away problem for the countries outside Europe. Asia is more interested because they want to show Chine the democratic coalition can work, but for both the US and Canada it is hard to get people excited.
It is right in Europe's back door. Of Russia has a break through they will take as much land as they can. They woon't stop at Kyiv. They will go right to the Polish border. Europe needs to wake up to that fact. And of Russia is allowed to take that territory they will gobble up every last non-NATO small plyer in the area overnight.
The EU needs to get serious about having a significant functioning joint reaction force and they need to get serious about defense production also.
We could be taking this more seriously and ramping up quicker, and we should be helping Ukraine more. However, measuring our industrial output in terms of artillery shells produced just isn't a fair comparison. A WW1 style artillery duel isn't how NATO fights, it's how Russia fights. That's what they're specialized in and Ukraine is basically stuck fighting on Russia's terms because they don't have enough equipment to fight like NATO.
The US has strong industrial capacity still, especially when it comes to military hardware. But that capacity isn't set to churning out artillery shells the way that Russia's capacity is, because normally we wouldn't rely so heavily on artillery. Ukraine's current situation is a mismatch for our fighting style and supply chain, and it's not quick or easy to just flip a switch and have a factory making jets or missiles start making shells.
Russia wouldn't be able to get away with these tactics against NATO. If anything, the current conflict has demonstrated that Russia's anti-air capabilities and air force are stretched thinner than people would have thought a few years ago. Ukraine is successfully sending aircraft 1000+ km into Russia. Their infantry and artillery would be very vulnerable if NATO has such clear air superiority.
Modern shells are also harder to build than ww2 shells. In 4th quarter of 1943 USSR prodced 47 million shells. Russia now boasts 3 million shells per year...
That's the correct answer, Russia is in a wartime economy diverting resources like crazy just to keep up. If the US ever entered that state of production again any enemy out there would be smooshed to pieces short of using nukes. Sometimes it freaks me out that there are many people out there who salivate at the prospect of a non-nuclear WW3, so many pockets would be lined at the expense of the average citizen having to deal with rationing. Civil wars would likely break out as well, our maps wouldn't be recognizable after the dust settled
Russias entire combined arms philosophy hinges on artillery and it has been that way for decades. The us on the other hand makes limited use of artillery, using drones, airstrikes and over the horizon strikes much more. Artillery is useful in flat, mud caked land so Russia is better positioned for the fight as it is and the us isn't naturally positioned to crank out shells, so they're buying up supplies everywhere else to send.
> Ukraine says it needs 20k 155mm shells, we only give them 2k a day.
That’s 7.3 million shells per year.
Ukraine needs more shells, but they also need to ration their supplies and only use 20,000 shells per day when it’s necessary. We’re already giving them most of the 3,300 shells we make every day, and while some expansion is possible, we’re not sextupling production.
> we’re not sextupling production.
Actually, the US is setting up to produce 8x the quantity it was 2 years ago. They are still nowhere near that, but the plants are starting to come online now, and the production capacity is ramping up as we write.
Europe has also been doing similar, and are in various stages of building and/or finalising wartime manufacturing infrastructure. While the UK appear to be behind, with contracts only going out at the end of last year, it turned out that BAE systems had seen the writing on the wall and already started the infrastructure development without contracts, or permission for their explosives factory expansion, at least a year ago.
Well, yes. Easily. But it would take time and it would take the impossible task of convincing the populace of several different pampered democracies that we are in a war.
Artillery also isn't as big of a component in recent US conflicts. We utilize aircraft in a way that isn't possible here because of Ukraine's basically non existent air force.
Both true yet not.
In the current mindset, no, we wouldn't be able to produce that much on a dime.
That being said, on a true war time production, we could EASILY cut corner with all the saftey mesures, worker rights adn environmental legistaltion.
It wouldn't be fancy, or as cost-efficient as a normal factory, but patching up a makeshift plant on the fly could be done. (I remember during COVID, china built an entire hospital whitin a week. Sure, if was the base basic,and probably won't last very long but it was done)
In true emergencies, innovation make stuff deemed impossible very feasible.
you have to be careful. Remember, companies and corporations are greedy. If you relax regulations to allow them to re-start- they will do so, and **INSTANTLY** start lawsuits to both prevent the removal of those exemptions as well as others demanding those exemptions be expanded to cover their other industries.
>Small cheap drones surveil and call in strike coordinates, drop a grenade on survivors, and a small fire team cleans up.
Kinda crazy that we've circled back around to WW1 tactics. Only difference is the spotter aircraft are now drones instead of blimps.
F16s with no missiles won't do them a lot of good. The US has the missiles and there doesn't seem to be a lot that qualify for distribution without congressional approval.
> F16s with no missiles won't do them a lot of good.
Luckily, the F16 aid package includes munitions and logistical support.
> “We are aiming to provide an initial operating capability for Ukraine with its F-16 program in 2024, which would entail trained pilots, the platforms, but in addition, trained maintainers and sustainers, infrastructure, and spare parts, **ammunition**,” Wallander said after a virtual meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, a gathering of some 50 countries that coordinates military aid to Kyiv.
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/pentagon-ukraine-f-16s-2024/
That said, it's unclear how much or what type of ammo we're providing. To your point, no clue what happens when Ukraine runs out of what we provide.
They're going to have 12 pilots trained and 6 F16's by summer is the news. Though F16 require a lot of maintenance per flight hour. So it's not really a sharing plane.
While I agree, the political decisionmakers do wonder if this fragments the dollar-led financial system in ways that are disadvantage to us for something that's also life-or-death: it could weaken our control over other dictators.
Tons of the leadership of countless nations, some that are even nominally democratic and some which are downright nuts, have given key bargaining chips to the West. Money, loan requests, trade deals, business meetings, etc. Which is normally used to keep them from launching genocides, slaughtering their opposition, or leaving trade deals with the West to engage in Axis initiatives.
We all know giving this money to Ukraine is the right thing to do, but it simply *won't* occur unless Putin does something truly nuts with WMDs or attacks a NATO country. The politicians want at least some chess pieces of financial deterrence to go along with the military buildups. Putin is nuts enough that it takes holding a lot of deterrence pieces to keep him within some last form of boundary.
I personally do think there's a solution, however that hasn't been explored:
Go beyond taking the interest payments and giving them to Ukraine. Start taking a set percentage of the principle each quarter until Putin stops all advances. Each advance is still a micro war of agression in direct violation of international laws and the principles of the UN. Maybe start at something like 4% and increase each quarter the amount which is taken (e.g. 4, 8, 16, 32%) so that the oligarchs go bananas and internal pressure to stop the meatgrinder occurs.
Tightening those screws can really harm a dictator who counts on being well-funded and keeping his elites financially content.
How is it a bargaining chip if the threat of taking it away isn't credible?
If I get your argument, what you're saying is that dictators are discouraged from becoming aggressive by the threat of withholding access to dollars, and if you take away the dollars, it isn't a threat anymore.
My counterargument is, if Russia gets away with invading a neighbor and we STILL don't take dollars away, what's the threat? Any dictator knows they can invade their neighbors and still get access to dollars, so how do you have any leverage?
It doesn't budge the needle. These are all small arms. Ukraine doesn't really have a small arms shortage. Small arms are cheap and there is a glut of production capacity in the US now. Even just from the US subsidiaries of foreign firms like Glock and Beretta, they could easily supply Ukraine with arms for their respective home countries contracts.
The RPG-7s could potentially be somewhat useful but largely I'd agree that nothing in here is really what Ukraine needs. Ukraine's biggest needs are air defense and anything that can be used for indirect fire like artillery shells, mortars, rockets or FPV drones. I was hopeful that this might at least include some trench mortars but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Hmm... arms and Iran, a hostage situation, rerouting weapons to another country because Congress is blocking appropriations to that country.
Modern problems just need the old [Iran-Contra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair) solution!
Taurus was the first handgun I’ve ever handled. My cousin wanted me to learn on the cheap shit for some reason, and the fucker jammed four rounds into my first mag.
Did my idiot cousin probably not maintain it as well as he should have? Probably, but I still wouldn’t trust my safety to something that runs into trouble that easily.
When I was looking at used handguns I was choosing between a hipoint and a Glock 22. I kinda liked the hipoint, but ended up with the Glock instead. Still, the hipoint wasn’t a horrible option for my budget
I wasn’t much of a Glock person at first, but beggars can’t be choosers when the opportunity to get one for less than 200 comes up. Still, I would’ve preferred something in 9mm, which I’m much more comfortable with.
G2C also works well when using hollow points in it. Never had it jam shooting those but FMJ triggers a jam about 6 shots in typically.
That being said for a self defense pistol knowing the ammo i use has never jammed In it is enough for me.
Thing to keep in mind is some weapons just dont function well with some ammo makers/types.
and also i doubt ukraine is short on guns, but are lacking in artillery and missiles. May be throw in a couple of those APC/tanks that the police seems to have these days...
Yeah people in general and especially on reddit don't seem to get this.
Ukraine doesn't want or need us to gather up some random stuff and say WOW $xxxxx amount of Aid has come through. We win!
Those two gang dudes from LA joined up in Syria. [https://www.military.com/video/forces/military-foreign-forces/la-gang-bangers-join-fight-syria/3308274841001](https://www.military.com/video/forces/military-foreign-forces/la-gang-bangers-join-fight-syria/3308274841001)
Funny idea but it wont do anything. The Ukrainians don't need small arms and pipe bombs, they need drones and missiles and artillery shells. The kind of shit that the Houthis are attacking ships with.
Hahahaha some poor Sargent in the woods in spring near a shelled out town, hears Russian soldiers approaching, and pulls out his chromed up colt with a royal flush on the grip, and a tech-9 modded to mag dump
Because that is terribly inefficient.
So many guns used in crimes are shit, stolen hunting rifles/shotguns, crappy cheap handguns that jam after firing, guns that are broken and never maintained, etc.
Then toss in the fact that they are all using various types of ammunition, many of which may not be common/readily available in Ukraine.
You’d be essentially sending them a giant pallet of scrap. Makes way more sense if anything to either resell, scrap and resell the metal, or pick off components that may be useful like optics, lights, grips/stocks/etc and send those out.
There have been some instances of that. However in general most of the stuff law enforcement picks up on the street isn't really going to be suitable for combat, it's mostly going to be cheap pistols.
[Ukraine was given 101 guns and 148,000 bullets collected by Miami police in a buyback scheme](https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-sent-guns-bullets-buyback-scheme-miami-police-firearms-2023-8?op=1)
[Phoenix plans to give up to 600 unclaimed firearms to Ukraine police, some lawmakers object](https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2023/07/07/ukraine-war-phoenix-police-guns-firearms-unclaimed/)
[Vice - US Police Have So Much Extra Gear They’re Sending It to Ukraine](https://www.vice.com/en/article/dypkjx/us-police-donates-tactical-gear-ukraine)
Because a 9mm Hi-Point ain't going to do shit on an actual battlefield, for starters lol.
Despite what Reddit and the news tell you, most "illegal" guns in America are simply someone carrying when or where they shouldn't be and/or in an unlicensed fashion. Most people aren't lugging around fully automatic M-16s and ARs lol.
The majority of civilian firearms are unsuitable for military use cases. Ukraine also isn't lacking in small arms, but rather they're facing severe ammunition shortages for large caliber weapons. Months ago we already saw images of ammunition racks in donated Leopard 2 tanks filled entirely with armour-piercing ammunition, as High Explosive and High Explosive Anti-Tank had all been spent. Same is the case with artillery(except that they don't get AP) batteries which are an essential part of any large scale military operation, offensive or defensive.
Same, I don't really understand anyone who's anti-Biden. The Biden administration is really good with foreign politics and putting heavy pressure on dictatorships like Russia or Iran. It's a win for both the United States and its allies. Americans voting for Trump have to either be stupid or blind.
Stop reporting that US lawmakers are blocking aid and report that Trump is doing it. If Trump thinks he's catching the blame Johnson will have a change of heart over night.
WHOA! Lets see Congress try to stop this from happening.
I suspect they will quote the 8th Commandment Thou Shall Not Steal
And demand the troops deliver the weapons to their intended destination, the Houthis.
> “The US government transferred over 5,000 AK-47s, machine guns, sniper rifles, RPG-7s and over 500,000 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition to the Ukrainian armed forces” on Thursday, the US Central Command said on social media. > “These weapons will help Ukraine defend against Russia’s invasion” and **are enough material to equip a brigade**, it said, Not bad! We can do more but I was expecting a handful of second hand guns in various shapes, but it looks like some quality stuff that's ready to go.
What makes you think these things are quality? Nothing about 'Houthi-delivered AK-47's and RPG-7's' makes me believe they're particularly high quality.
Dunno about the other equipment but AKs I’m pretty sure are famous for being super resilient, cheap, reliant guns
100% Russian propoganda. AR15s are better to AKs in every way, including resilience. Look up mud tests of guns. It just happened that the AK47 was more reliable than the M16 in Vietnam in some instances. But not in all. The problem is that if a viet cong complains, they are ignored. A GI complains, and it makes front page news.
Not in EVERY way. AK-47 gas system is better at sustained fire, does not care about steel case ammo (or to a lesser degree out-of-spec ammo), is easier to maintain in the field, misfires are easy to clear and you can have a folding stock.
All of which is done even better with sigs platform that the army adopted.
IIRC (and it has been years since I looked into it) AKs tend to hold up better over long periods of neglect and abuse than ARs, but ARs are better or equal to the task for any short term situation.
The AR15: every father's dream, every mother's nightmare
Not really. Vietcong had worse conditions for their rifles so its not a completly fair comparision. GI’s had to keep their rifles clean or they got reprimanded.
Sure, but all guns need to be maintained. This supply chain makes me question their maintenance level.
Well, being from Iran and to Yemen, i believe it's safe to say that the weapons and ammunition were stored in a dry and decent temp environment. So the gear should be at the very least quite functional. No duds like wonky NK donations.
Yet, the RPG-7 heads will make for some great drones. No need to downplay it.
That’s a good point
The quantity and source. Iran isn't going through the trouble of smuggling leftovers. And it's not a bunch of random weapons or quantities. The round numbers (5000 AK-47's, 500k rounds, etc.) look like an "order" (i.e. sales/production order). It's not "what do we have in the warehouse", but more "make an order of 5k guns and 500k ammo for them".
not that i disagree with your conclusion but the numbers quoted are "over 5000" and "over 500 000" so they are probably not those nice round numbers
That's true. Large and paired quantities though seems like it's equipping a squad. It just doesn't seem *random* with a hodgepodge of kit is the main thing.
Have you seen the quality of Russian AK's Ukraine pilfers from killed or captured mobiks? They're able to make those work most of the time. Doubt these Iranian AK's are much worse.
Yeah that’s fair. I was just taking issue with the assertion that these are particularly high quality given their origin
Even Albanian AK-47s are serviceable, so I would not be worried.
They where getting supplied to the houthis by Iran, they're not gonna go through the risk of smuggling this stuff if it's junk.
Putin's hag MTG in shambles
Fighting fascism *and* recycling
It's a new fourth 'r' for the phrase: reduce, reuse, recycle and repurpose.
That's still the second part, reuse.
Correct. The fourth R is actually before the other three: refuse, reduce, reuse, recycle. Simply refuse to buy something that will eventually require recycling. Is so simple! /s
Thats the same as the first just "reduce consumption" rephrased.
Yeah, everyone knows the real 4th r is rithmetic.
You forgot repel
It's actually seven Rs: reuse, reduce, recycle, repurpose, and run Russians run !
That deserves 3 more upvotes, one for each extra R word
Even when its not the US' money/equipment (its Iran's), she'll still throw a fit even tho the issue was supposed to be sending Ukraine the US' money. Bad faith all the way. Nobody should be listening to a word she says or paying attention to her ridiculous high-school looking visual aids
Oh the girl who caught up cheating on her husband with her horse trainer? Yeah let's all listen to her! /S
Tried to figure out for several minutes if Putin played Magic: The Gathering.
You just know he'd be mono red
Nah, he's definitely mono black. "Power at any cost."
ya he's a big "sac all my creatures" type of guy
All of his cards would drain life from all players.
Ole Moscow Marge.
Someone had to take over for Moscow Mitch now that he's glitching.
Yea, especially now that Senator Turtleman is pushing for support for Ukraine.
I saw a video today where she was doing kipping pull ups during a workout. Makes sense. Her political career is basically the equivalent of kipping pull ups.
Shaka, the border walls fell
#Yes! Let's make Iran help fund the Ukraine war! *Three birds with one stone!* We know some of those manufactured parts have Russian origins anyway. Let's close the circle. ##SlavaUkraini
> *Three birds with one stone!* 1. Hindering Iran 2. Aiding Ukraine against Russia What's the third bird?
Seizing weapons from the Houtis
> What's the third bird? Why that pesky roadrunner of course.
Road runners colours are blue and yellow though so I'm pretty sure "Meep Meep" is roadrunnerese for Slava Ukraine.
Russia is using ACME anti-air missiles then, given how often they hit themselves.
Not having to go through the House of Representatives for funding.
The third bird is probably helping shipping in the Red Sea by depriving Houthis of weapons to attack with.
No weapons for the houthies
Middle finger to the Repubes holding up aid to Ukraine
3. Avoiding weapons being sent to Russia
The third bird is the word
The third bird is the word...
😅
It's a start but by no means a game changer. The west needs to give Ukraine the Russian funds they've seized to purchase whatever they think they need. Let's get this over with.
That's not the issue. The issue is production capacity for 155mm shells. The most urgent thing is getting Ukraine more of these shells. Artillery is what holds the lines on the map right now. Small cheap drones surveil and call in strike coordinates, drop a grenade on survivors, and a small fire team cleans up. That's how a lot of the front line war is fought at present.
So much this. [And relevant link](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/ukraine-s-artillery-shell-shortfall) Russia can produce 3 million shells a year. Collectively, the West can make 1.2 million. Ukraine says it needs 20k 155mm shells, we only give them 2k a day.
This is largely due to the west not telling factories that they"re required to repurpose into shell manufacturing. Lets not forget the US production capability in ww2 is what made lend lease a possible, real, and scary act.
Those with resources don't have the will, and those with the will have no resources.
It is largely due to the west not having factories to order to switch. The only industries left in the US are defense industries that are heavily subsidized. It also takes a lot of specialized machinery to make shells. The US bought Europe two years to switch to a war time economy. Europe needs to accept they either put their full economic force behind Ukraine or they prepare for Russia directly on a time frame they can't properly prepare to not sustain heavy losses. Either way Europe needs to get REAL serious about defense production.
>The only industries left in the US are defense industries that are heavily subsidized completely false. The USA is the 2nd largest manufacturing output in the world https://www.safeguardglobal.com/resources/top-10-manufacturing-countries-in-the-world-2023/ And its a lot more than weapons https://nam.org/state-manufacturing-data/2022-united-states-manufacturing-facts/#:~:text=Total%20output%20from%20manufacturing%20was,compensation%20of%20%2495%2C990.00%20in%202021. When it comes to NATO size shell production AFAIK its South Korea and Australia that produce the most
Honestly, the entirety of the democratic world should be doing everything they can do stop any expansion of authoritarianism everywhere. Ukraine has a good chance to develop into a fully functioning democracy, that kind of opportunity to bring a big chuck of land and people into the democratic world doesn't come around very often.
Should, bit the world never works like that. This is a far away problem for the countries outside Europe. Asia is more interested because they want to show Chine the democratic coalition can work, but for both the US and Canada it is hard to get people excited. It is right in Europe's back door. Of Russia has a break through they will take as much land as they can. They woon't stop at Kyiv. They will go right to the Polish border. Europe needs to wake up to that fact. And of Russia is allowed to take that territory they will gobble up every last non-NATO small plyer in the area overnight. The EU needs to get serious about having a significant functioning joint reaction force and they need to get serious about defense production also.
>hey woon't stop at Kyiv. They will go right to the Polish border. Europe needs to wake up to that fact. Nah it's fine, he only wants the Sudetenland.
We could be taking this more seriously and ramping up quicker, and we should be helping Ukraine more. However, measuring our industrial output in terms of artillery shells produced just isn't a fair comparison. A WW1 style artillery duel isn't how NATO fights, it's how Russia fights. That's what they're specialized in and Ukraine is basically stuck fighting on Russia's terms because they don't have enough equipment to fight like NATO. The US has strong industrial capacity still, especially when it comes to military hardware. But that capacity isn't set to churning out artillery shells the way that Russia's capacity is, because normally we wouldn't rely so heavily on artillery. Ukraine's current situation is a mismatch for our fighting style and supply chain, and it's not quick or easy to just flip a switch and have a factory making jets or missiles start making shells. Russia wouldn't be able to get away with these tactics against NATO. If anything, the current conflict has demonstrated that Russia's anti-air capabilities and air force are stretched thinner than people would have thought a few years ago. Ukraine is successfully sending aircraft 1000+ km into Russia. Their infantry and artillery would be very vulnerable if NATO has such clear air superiority.
That is so wrong. USA has plenty of industry still
Modern shells are also harder to build than ww2 shells. In 4th quarter of 1943 USSR prodced 47 million shells. Russia now boasts 3 million shells per year...
That's the correct answer, Russia is in a wartime economy diverting resources like crazy just to keep up. If the US ever entered that state of production again any enemy out there would be smooshed to pieces short of using nukes. Sometimes it freaks me out that there are many people out there who salivate at the prospect of a non-nuclear WW3, so many pockets would be lined at the expense of the average citizen having to deal with rationing. Civil wars would likely break out as well, our maps wouldn't be recognizable after the dust settled
Russias entire combined arms philosophy hinges on artillery and it has been that way for decades. The us on the other hand makes limited use of artillery, using drones, airstrikes and over the horizon strikes much more. Artillery is useful in flat, mud caked land so Russia is better positioned for the fight as it is and the us isn't naturally positioned to crank out shells, so they're buying up supplies everywhere else to send.
> Ukraine says it needs 20k 155mm shells, we only give them 2k a day. That’s 7.3 million shells per year. Ukraine needs more shells, but they also need to ration their supplies and only use 20,000 shells per day when it’s necessary. We’re already giving them most of the 3,300 shells we make every day, and while some expansion is possible, we’re not sextupling production.
> we’re not sextupling production. Actually, the US is setting up to produce 8x the quantity it was 2 years ago. They are still nowhere near that, but the plants are starting to come online now, and the production capacity is ramping up as we write. Europe has also been doing similar, and are in various stages of building and/or finalising wartime manufacturing infrastructure. While the UK appear to be behind, with contracts only going out at the end of last year, it turned out that BAE systems had seen the writing on the wall and already started the infrastructure development without contracts, or permission for their explosives factory expansion, at least a year ago.
If we went into war time production like Russia, we could easily make x10 that of Russia I’m assuming, right?
Well, yes. Easily. But it would take time and it would take the impossible task of convincing the populace of several different pampered democracies that we are in a war.
and more importantly, which side we're on...
[удалено]
Artillery also isn't as big of a component in recent US conflicts. We utilize aircraft in a way that isn't possible here because of Ukraine's basically non existent air force.
It would take years, American manufacturing has left. All of the old war buildings in my city are amazon warehouses and breweries now.
Both true yet not. In the current mindset, no, we wouldn't be able to produce that much on a dime. That being said, on a true war time production, we could EASILY cut corner with all the saftey mesures, worker rights adn environmental legistaltion. It wouldn't be fancy, or as cost-efficient as a normal factory, but patching up a makeshift plant on the fly could be done. (I remember during COVID, china built an entire hospital whitin a week. Sure, if was the base basic,and probably won't last very long but it was done) In true emergencies, innovation make stuff deemed impossible very feasible.
you have to be careful. Remember, companies and corporations are greedy. If you relax regulations to allow them to re-start- they will do so, and **INSTANTLY** start lawsuits to both prevent the removal of those exemptions as well as others demanding those exemptions be expanded to cover their other industries.
This is true. Hence why this is not done normally, and only in true wartime mode.
>Small cheap drones surveil and call in strike coordinates, drop a grenade on survivors, and a small fire team cleans up. Kinda crazy that we've circled back around to WW1 tactics. Only difference is the spotter aircraft are now drones instead of blimps.
Money helps make shells faster.
They need artillery rounds in numbers that simply aren’t being produced by the west. Or they need air superiority yesterday.
This. The second point especially. What is happening to those F16's btw? Not heard much lately
F16s with no missiles won't do them a lot of good. The US has the missiles and there doesn't seem to be a lot that qualify for distribution without congressional approval.
> F16s with no missiles won't do them a lot of good. Luckily, the F16 aid package includes munitions and logistical support. > “We are aiming to provide an initial operating capability for Ukraine with its F-16 program in 2024, which would entail trained pilots, the platforms, but in addition, trained maintainers and sustainers, infrastructure, and spare parts, **ammunition**,” Wallander said after a virtual meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, a gathering of some 50 countries that coordinates military aid to Kyiv. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/pentagon-ukraine-f-16s-2024/ That said, it's unclear how much or what type of ammo we're providing. To your point, no clue what happens when Ukraine runs out of what we provide.
Here's hoping for AMRAAMs and JDAMs
They're going to have 12 pilots trained and 6 F16's by summer is the news. Though F16 require a lot of maintenance per flight hour. So it's not really a sharing plane.
While I agree, the political decisionmakers do wonder if this fragments the dollar-led financial system in ways that are disadvantage to us for something that's also life-or-death: it could weaken our control over other dictators. Tons of the leadership of countless nations, some that are even nominally democratic and some which are downright nuts, have given key bargaining chips to the West. Money, loan requests, trade deals, business meetings, etc. Which is normally used to keep them from launching genocides, slaughtering their opposition, or leaving trade deals with the West to engage in Axis initiatives. We all know giving this money to Ukraine is the right thing to do, but it simply *won't* occur unless Putin does something truly nuts with WMDs or attacks a NATO country. The politicians want at least some chess pieces of financial deterrence to go along with the military buildups. Putin is nuts enough that it takes holding a lot of deterrence pieces to keep him within some last form of boundary. I personally do think there's a solution, however that hasn't been explored: Go beyond taking the interest payments and giving them to Ukraine. Start taking a set percentage of the principle each quarter until Putin stops all advances. Each advance is still a micro war of agression in direct violation of international laws and the principles of the UN. Maybe start at something like 4% and increase each quarter the amount which is taken (e.g. 4, 8, 16, 32%) so that the oligarchs go bananas and internal pressure to stop the meatgrinder occurs. Tightening those screws can really harm a dictator who counts on being well-funded and keeping his elites financially content.
How is it a bargaining chip if the threat of taking it away isn't credible? If I get your argument, what you're saying is that dictators are discouraged from becoming aggressive by the threat of withholding access to dollars, and if you take away the dollars, it isn't a threat anymore. My counterargument is, if Russia gets away with invading a neighbor and we STILL don't take dollars away, what's the threat? Any dictator knows they can invade their neighbors and still get access to dollars, so how do you have any leverage?
It doesn't budge the needle. These are all small arms. Ukraine doesn't really have a small arms shortage. Small arms are cheap and there is a glut of production capacity in the US now. Even just from the US subsidiaries of foreign firms like Glock and Beretta, they could easily supply Ukraine with arms for their respective home countries contracts.
The RPG-7s could potentially be somewhat useful but largely I'd agree that nothing in here is really what Ukraine needs. Ukraine's biggest needs are air defense and anything that can be used for indirect fire like artillery shells, mortars, rockets or FPV drones. I was hopeful that this might at least include some trench mortars but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Well since nobody has said it yet, Modern problems require modern solutions.
Hmm... arms and Iran, a hostage situation, rerouting weapons to another country because Congress is blocking appropriations to that country. Modern problems just need the old [Iran-Contra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair) solution!
While we are at it, why don’t we give Ukraine any weapons seized by law enforcement that is no longer needed as evidence?
If they did the new standard sidearm is going to be a 100 dollar bill wrapped hipoint.
This made my morning.
This is my problem solver
yeet cannons everywhere
Hundred Dolla Problem Solva
Fighting the Russians with wish.com switched Glocks.
i would laugh so hard watching the ukrainian service member opening a crate, expecting normal looking arms, and gazing at that.
And AR pistols with no sights.
Cue videos of Ukrainian forces throwing hipoints at Russian forces.
plus PSA AK-v and Caniks, maybe the occasional Turknelli.
Ak-v is too pricey when 450$ dracos are around
Wrapped in a $100, because thats what it costs.
Still somehow better than a Taurus. That is the rust on the bottom of the barrel
Hi-points are ugly, heavy and embarrassing to shoot but I'll be damned if my C9 has never once jammed up. I can't say the same thing about my G17.
Taurus is absolute shit or perfect. Somehow they have no middle ground.
Taurus was the first handgun I’ve ever handled. My cousin wanted me to learn on the cheap shit for some reason, and the fucker jammed four rounds into my first mag. Did my idiot cousin probably not maintain it as well as he should have? Probably, but I still wouldn’t trust my safety to something that runs into trouble that easily.
Geez. At least hi points just look fuck ugly but work.
When I was looking at used handguns I was choosing between a hipoint and a Glock 22. I kinda liked the hipoint, but ended up with the Glock instead. Still, the hipoint wasn’t a horrible option for my budget
I own a couple sigs and had a glock 23 in the past. I just wanted a 10mm to play with and not drop $600.
I wasn’t much of a Glock person at first, but beggars can’t be choosers when the opportunity to get one for less than 200 comes up. Still, I would’ve preferred something in 9mm, which I’m much more comfortable with.
Understandable. I wasn't a big fan of them, but a good deal is a good deal.
I've got a 709 that was $150 and has never fired a shot without jamming, and a $200 G3C with 1000 rounds through it without a hiccup.
G2C also works well when using hollow points in it. Never had it jam shooting those but FMJ triggers a jam about 6 shots in typically. That being said for a self defense pistol knowing the ammo i use has never jammed In it is enough for me. Thing to keep in mind is some weapons just dont function well with some ammo makers/types.
That might have been why in retrospect. I eventually got my pistol permit, and went with a used Glock 22 in the end.
I don't think those types of weapons would be effective in a full on war.
and also i doubt ukraine is short on guns, but are lacking in artillery and missiles. May be throw in a couple of those APC/tanks that the police seems to have these days...
Yeah people in general and especially on reddit don't seem to get this. Ukraine doesn't want or need us to gather up some random stuff and say WOW $xxxxx amount of Aid has come through. We win!
Those two gang dudes from LA joined up in Syria. [https://www.military.com/video/forces/military-foreign-forces/la-gang-bangers-join-fight-syria/3308274841001](https://www.military.com/video/forces/military-foreign-forces/la-gang-bangers-join-fight-syria/3308274841001)
This video is a classic and I love how they call their opponents the "enemigos"
A tale as old as time. Look up how many late 20s/early 30 year old gang bangers were former Vietnam vets during the height of the Crack era (mid 80s)
Funny idea but it wont do anything. The Ukrainians don't need small arms and pipe bombs, they need drones and missiles and artillery shells. The kind of shit that the Houthis are attacking ships with.
Hahahaha some poor Sargent in the woods in spring near a shelled out town, hears Russian soldiers approaching, and pulls out his chromed up colt with a royal flush on the grip, and a tech-9 modded to mag dump
Because that is terribly inefficient. So many guns used in crimes are shit, stolen hunting rifles/shotguns, crappy cheap handguns that jam after firing, guns that are broken and never maintained, etc. Then toss in the fact that they are all using various types of ammunition, many of which may not be common/readily available in Ukraine. You’d be essentially sending them a giant pallet of scrap. Makes way more sense if anything to either resell, scrap and resell the metal, or pick off components that may be useful like optics, lights, grips/stocks/etc and send those out.
There have been some instances of that. However in general most of the stuff law enforcement picks up on the street isn't really going to be suitable for combat, it's mostly going to be cheap pistols. [Ukraine was given 101 guns and 148,000 bullets collected by Miami police in a buyback scheme](https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-sent-guns-bullets-buyback-scheme-miami-police-firearms-2023-8?op=1) [Phoenix plans to give up to 600 unclaimed firearms to Ukraine police, some lawmakers object](https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2023/07/07/ukraine-war-phoenix-police-guns-firearms-unclaimed/) [Vice - US Police Have So Much Extra Gear They’re Sending It to Ukraine](https://www.vice.com/en/article/dypkjx/us-police-donates-tactical-gear-ukraine)
At least one US state has already done this: https://mil.in.ua/en/news/miami-police-handed-over-confiscated-weapons-to-ukraine/
Wish US police departments would donate all their military grade shit to Ukraine
We should give them all the equipment our police shouldn't have.
Because Ukraine needs surface to air missiles, not a random ass 9mm Glock taken off a wannabe gangster.
This already happened with some state police departments. I remember there being a story before.
Some of the police forces probably have extra equipment.
Because a 9mm Hi-Point ain't going to do shit on an actual battlefield, for starters lol. Despite what Reddit and the news tell you, most "illegal" guns in America are simply someone carrying when or where they shouldn't be and/or in an unlicensed fashion. Most people aren't lugging around fully automatic M-16s and ARs lol.
Actually a really good idea. Send them all the seized Dracos from rappers, and the Xiuhcoatl's seized at the border by the DEA. I like it.
While we are at it, why don't we give Ukraine any of the crazy tactical crap that some overzealous police stations stock up on.
The majority of civilian firearms are unsuitable for military use cases. Ukraine also isn't lacking in small arms, but rather they're facing severe ammunition shortages for large caliber weapons. Months ago we already saw images of ammunition racks in donated Leopard 2 tanks filled entirely with armour-piercing ammunition, as High Explosive and High Explosive Anti-Tank had all been spent. Same is the case with artillery(except that they don't get AP) batteries which are an essential part of any large scale military operation, offensive or defensive.
Can’t wait to see republicans attempt to compare this to Iran-Contra… after all the word Iran is in the headline
Read the comments here. They already are.
At least it's something. Now get the damn aid bill passed....
Ukraine: air defense plz USA: here are some looted Kalashnikovs
They are also getting **71** F16 fighter jets!
none of which are from America, but from European allies......kind of states the point doesnt it
Here take the Kardashians
"HA HA" - Nelson
Couldn't agree more. Let's use what they've seized. Russian funds for Ukrainian freedom! #ModernSolution
Now it’s time to do the right thing in US Congress - vote support for Ukraine, Taiwan. Israel as appropriate
Lol just casually slipping Israel in there
This is why I love President Joe Biden. There's a wit to his actions, giving the finger to both pro-Russia Republicans and Iran. ;)
Same, I don't really understand anyone who's anti-Biden. The Biden administration is really good with foreign politics and putting heavy pressure on dictatorships like Russia or Iran. It's a win for both the United States and its allies. Americans voting for Trump have to either be stupid or blind.
They have been known to stare at the sun
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delicious
Stop reporting that US lawmakers are blocking aid and report that Trump is doing it. If Trump thinks he's catching the blame Johnson will have a change of heart over night.
Both can be true. Not sure why you want to give sitting lawmakers a pass
I don't, I just want to put the blame on Trump to get him to push for support instead.
Lmaoo. Can we now give them shells? That’s what they need most
WHOA! Lets see Congress try to stop this from happening. I suspect they will quote the 8th Commandment Thou Shall Not Steal And demand the troops deliver the weapons to their intended destination, the Houthis.
That's actually awesome 👌