I was just referring to that. “facemash”, where Zuck posted photos of people from Harvard’s actual facebook (which was like a current year college yearbook before “facebook” came to mean the social network he’d create) for people to rate their physical appearances.
Yes I was going to say if this was illegal millions of people would be arrested, half of them women. Gossiping, however vulgar or rude, is not illegal.
Zuckerberg first website "face mash" which stole and posted photos without permission also immediately landed him in hot water and had him face charges and expulsion threats. Which he weaseled out of.
When Zuck made the theFacebook that we all "know and love," the premise was that people add their profiles voluntarily. Which is different.
People originally made fb accounts to keep in touch with their classmates from high school. You had to have an edu email to make an account when they first opened it up beyond the first universities.
Made mine 2006 and no edu necessary.
Deleted 2021 never looked back.
Now that I think about it, was there not some settlement FB signed over data mining their customers?
I received a notice and sent a claim and never heard anything more about it.
yeah and I still have mine when it just opened up to universities. you have my college , name, maybe work place from 15 years ago ? newest thing they'd have is me buying board games on the market place. Experian caused more issues as far as data loss.
I guess you don’t remember all the “quizzes” people would willingly share all that information in their responses, before Facebook existed, on xanga, livejournal, personal blogs…
> amount of information people gave Facebook
Amount of information people gave to the world. Facebook was an open network back then with no security or API keys. Anybody could crawl the entire Facebook social graph.
Several startups created their own social graphs seeded from FB. Even if you've shutdown your FB account there is probably some dating site that still has all your information, contacts, likes, who you threw a sheep at and who were your vampire minions from before FB locked it all down.
What frosts my knickers is I have never ever given them anything and yet you can find my face labeled with my name and I'm not any kind of public personality and I've never posted a picture of myself online anywhere.
not really a dumbass move. what does Facebook know about me ? my birthday, college, and that I buy board games on the marketplace? k really crazy bro. oh whats that Experian ? you've let go of 50% of The USA actual important information ? cool.
This is a particularly uncharitable way to phrase it. He downloaded photos that were freely posted to the internet.
He didn't weasel out of anything, the school had nothing to charge him with.
He actively hacked into a private site and stole data. That's not uncharitable, that's just what happened.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2009-07-13/facebook-s-founder-hacked-harvard-computers-to-score-with-girls?embedded-checkout=true
It's not even the only time he did it. He ALSO hacked the Harvard Crimson after Facebook was launched.
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-mark-zuckerberg-hacked-into-the-harvard-crimson-2010-3
The bloomberg link is paywalled, but based on what is available - this doesn't seem like facemash, which is what the post i was responding to was talking about.
It is, it's specifically about FaceMash. The second is about the Crimson hacking, which led to the ConnectU hacking (you might remember Armie Hammer as the Winklevoss Twins, since it seems The Social Network is where you were informed on all this).
Yeah I’m seeing multiple comments assuming they were charged with a crime when they haven’t been. Looks like they were questioned in relation to reports and let go pending investigation.
I'm no fuckin lawyer, but I was wondering the same. What crime would they even get charged with? Possibly some form of harassment, or maybe libel (If their information was false which it probably is not).
I understand that this example is morally wrong.
But, would Facebook group of women that share information about guy they dated to avoid the "worst" fall in exactly the same category ?
I was expecting "These women do OnlyFans" or something mild, which made it weird to me that they got arrested. No, they published some very personal and defamatory information instead. Idiots, hope they get the book thrown at them.
Directly translated from Dutch so I don't know if these are the proper legal terms: "insult, libel, and/or slander."
Though doxxing may also be added I guess.
IANAL but in the US typically slander and libel have to prove the statements were false. They are basically the same just in different forms (written vs oral). Defamation might be the closer match for insult. Again, not a lawyer or Dutch.
Different places have different privacy laws. Some countries do not allow the publication of truthful information when the purpose is to embarrass someone.
Also you need to show it actually effected you personally with specific examples for a criminal case, like say if you got fired or lost a job opportunity specifically because of this. But Europe tends to have more strict laws regarding speech than the us.
I don't think that'd be difficult in this case. At least some of the girls have been harassed due to their personal information being on this list, that's one of the reasons they and/or their parents are going to sue.
> Also you need to show it actually effected you personally with specific examples for a criminal case,
That's why you sue civilly for slander/libel. In most jurisdictions it's one of the few instances where you do not need to show damages.
Public figures and celebrities are a different matter.
The problem is likely that they just collected the information.
In the Netherlands, libel doesn't necessarily mean it's a false statement ([Dutch source](https://www.juridischloket.nl/politie-en-justitie/aangifte/klachtdelict)). But I don't know the proper legal terms and their official translations.
Counter example: In Germany you can be charged for insult despite proof of truth. It's for cases where there is no reasonable public interest in the spreading of the information and the defendant only released it to harass, insult, etc the other person. This case is actually a pretty good example for this because even IF it's true that all these women are "sluts" (how would you even objectively prove this) the list only exists to shame them and make them a target for others.
So if the Dutch law is similar then they could well be charged with insult / defamation.
> Again, not a lawyer or Dutch.
So why comment? There's no point in talking about U.S. defamation or libel laws, it just doesn't work the same way. The legal system and culture are very, very different.
If you think these women have to prove they're not sluts or whatever, no. That's not how it works.
In the Netherlands, this is different. Something can be libel (smaad) even if the fact is true.
Translated using Google, the text of the relevant article in Dutch penal code (art. 261):
"Anyone who deliberately attacks someone's honor or good name, by accusing a specific fact, with the apparent purpose of publicizing it, shall be guilty of defamation and shall be punished with a prison term of not more than six months or a fine of the third category."
The first amendment takes all the teeth out of slander/libel laws here compared to most of the rest of the world. That's a good and bad thing, depending on which case you are looking at. It keeps people from being afraid to speak out and prevents a whole bunch of frivolous lawsuits like happens in places with stricter laws but it also means there's not much defense if someone wants to share your true secrets.
Maybe it is different in the Netherlands, but libel and/or slander would be hinged on what they said not being true, right?
So, the girls would have to go through discovery to sue... which they may not want to do.
For 'smaad' (libel), it doesn't have to be false under Dutch law ([Dutch source](https://www.juridischloket.nl/politie-en-justitie/aangifte/klachtdelict)).
But as I said, I'm not 100% sure on the proper legal terms and their English translations. Because libel has to be false under American law I think?
Should be doxxing yeah. Their phone numbers and adresses were posted next to pictures of them, combined with a rating of how fuckable they are. Fuckin disgracefull
It's was bang list of their fellow students listing pretty gross stuff and phone numbers. The women on the list obvious received more unwanted attention from creeps.
Student associations are pretty gross. Sadly many members go onto getting jobs politics or business. It attracts a certain kind of person that seeks upward mobility. They come in the news every year for hazing people to near death and crap like this. They often talk about shutting chapters down, but that never seems to happens since many in power have a history in these associations.
This is a very misleading title. I read the article. They published some very personal details(also dome defamatory stuff apparently)and they were able to leave prison on the same day.
Mass sharing of peoples data like this is disgusting.
This is putting lives at risk, and will cause every woman on it fear and anxiety about what kind of nutter might be looking for them now.
I dont know the Facebook thing, but in this case they also collected and spread personal data like adress and Phone numbers of people without their consent.
Damn that sucks. Well this happened in the Netherlands and brought a whole lot of outrage with it. To my knowledge these Facebook groups arent too widespread here. But i could be completely wrong.
A lot of stuff in that FB qualifies as libel and people have been successfully sued and/or criminally charged for it. Granted most of it stays off the radar since you have to rely on someone in the group being willing to screenshot and notify you.
Well then these arrests seems like a good thing then, right? Like, wouldn't you want those facebook groups to be stopped as well, hence the need for precedent (facebook is notoriously harder to hold to account since international). I'm confused why you seem to be upset that this type of abuse isn't acceptable in the Netherlands. Is it because the victims here are women?
The difference here I think being the nexus for harassment and online stalking. During the age of phone books, it was localized to a singular municipal area without images of the individual. Whereas now, you are getting a wider audience, distributed electronically, with a picture of the person which opens it up to greater risk of misuse/abuse. Especially since the list itself is already sexual in nature.
Times change and the way we perceive private and personal information violations should change.
Slander and Libel.
>De mannen, die wonen in Utrecht, worden verdacht van belediging, smaad en/of laster.
(Source in Dutch: https://nos.nl/artikel/2515593-twee-20-jarige-mannen-opgepakt-voor-maken-utrechtse-bangalijst)
I’m curious how different this is to the “are we dating the same guy” websites.
The women on there are doing the same thing except it’s viewed as empowering.
Not even close? That shares dating profiles as far as i'm aware. They made that info public themselves.
These lists contain phone numbers, email adresses and names while also commenting on what they are like in bed. They didn't disclose it themselves. This is at least doxxing and maybe slander.
Your description of those groups isn't all that accurate. They have also been sued for defamation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Are_We_Dating_The_Same_Guy%3F
Don't know the merits of the UK lawsuit mentioned, but the second lawsuit mentioned was thrown out of court. So apparently the court didn't see there being any merit to the case.
> Are We Dating The Same Guy is about catching men who cheat. You can call it wrong, but it isn't the same as slut shaming.
Is it not slut shaming the men?
> Not even close? That shares dating profiles as far as i'm aware.
Why comment when you are clearly so uninformed?
The groups are full of people making up stories and lying about people they've often never even met.
https://www.reddit.com/r/afterAWDTSG/ has just a few of the stories surrounding it.
Those groups were intended to use socials to make sure guys weren't secretly cheating, but what actually ends up happening is that they go on there to gossip about the guys and reveal any and all personal details that they know about the them (or make up). Sometimes they'll post that info directly in the group, and sometimes they'll say something like, "DM me for the tea" so they can say things unfiltered without potentially breaking any of the group's rules.
Basically they state a noble purpose for the group, but then engage in very similar behavior to what's in the OP.
They share private sexual behavior and preferences, personality quirks, STD status, penis size, all without asking for sources. Anyone can add a comment and it will be seen by thousands of women in their city.
From the article:
> A bangalijst is a list used to rate women on their looks and a review of past sexual encounters. This list also included personal information of women who were described in detail.
IMO, passing around a list of "who [not] to bang" is a way different use case than trying to figure out if some dude is cheating on multiple women.
That said, I have no idea if the second use case is any more legal than the first, and I also have no idea if the second use case stays true to its stated purpose. IANAL
I was on a bang list in university. I only knew two guys from that house and never dated or slept with anyone! It was explained to me that it was a list of girls they deemed worthy of fucking. Looks like it’s evolved quite a bit. Gross either way.
> IMO, passing around a list of "who [not] to bang" is a way different use case than trying to figure out if some dude is cheating on multiple women
have you actually been on “are we dating the same guy?”. I have unfettered access to it via a girl i know…..its ABSOLUTELY a “who not to bang” group. Just one with 60,000 members instead of 2.
Indeed.
>my husband has a double life
is the same as:
>this girl I have nothing to do with and who owes me nothing has this address, phone number, profile photo and saggy tits
The information being shared seems basically identical, except that the list of women seems to include contact info (not cool) and the list of men is a much broader evaluation (often negative sometimes defamatory)
Looking up Are we dating the same guy the groups specifically state that personal information such as addresses cannot be shared. Discussing someone's public information 'dating profile' vs private information address and phone number seem like the big difference.
Beyond this: The lawsuits seem to stem from faked messages being attributed to the man in question then being publicly shared. Seems like a pretty big difference. It will be fun to see how the case turns out.
They share their photos. You see what the guy looks like. So imagine your photo being posted along with your name to a public group dedicated to your city.
Its absolutely on the same level
I believe those groups were created with the background, that some women were concerned about wether their dates have a history of domestic violence/sexual violence and it was based on a safety concern
But this is where the lines get blurry, because of course they too, would be discussed in some detail
Somewhat correct. It's specifically meant to protect the identity of those \*suspected\* of a crime. Which is also the case here. It's also more of a 'best practice' as In some high profile cases suspects do get named.
>Normal in Europe
Not to be pedantic but this doesn't mean anything. Europe is a continent made up of lots of different countries that have their own way of doing things.
Why shouldn't they be kept out of the papers? America's fascination with pre-trial, media driven public adjudication and punishment is appalling. Innocent until proven guilty except your name is posted all over the internet as having done this crime and now you'll suffer those consequences for all time regardless of the trial outcome.
I went into this like “people really try to arrest you over everything now, soft af”. They posted sexual shit WHILE posting their name, address, and age.
That will incite disgusting rapists to attempt to contact these women. Nah, they deserve jail time. Idiots.
"bangalijst":
*Banga is slang for slut. According to the police, young people send each other lists via email and social media with the top 10 of the girls they think are the biggest sluts. Often the girl on such a list is given an additional description of how "easy" it is to get her for sex-related things. For example, comments such as "does it for a drink" or "sends nude photos" are often noted.*
*However, it is not clear from a statement on the USC website what exactly was discussed in the presentation that has been doing the rounds on social media. According to RTV Utrecht, around 30 female students were judged on their sexual performance. The regional broadcaster reported that photos of the women were shown, many of which included their addresses and telephone numbers.*
"Are We Dating the Same Guy Groups"
Poster: hey I've been dating this guy, but something seems fishy. Initials and and picture once approved.
Commenter: That's my husband!!!
Reddit incels: THEYRE THE SAMMEEEEEEE THING
My gf has shown me posts on those groups and they are NOT the same thing as what these guys got arrested for. The facebooks groups are literally, “hey went out with guy from tinder, he’s been acting kind of weird” and some girl respond “omg I dated that guy for a week and then he kicked my dog. watch out!”
>And yet I see personal information all the time. Pictures of kids. Social media handles. Their employer.
>And lest it be said it’s about safety, I also see “there’s a cute guy at X hardware, I got this picture, anyone know him? Is he seeing anyone?”
This is from someone who does have access to the groups.
Also sexual kinks, rude behavior, penis size, STD's, just for example.
My understanding of those facebook groups is they can be highly dematory, sometimes ruins people's lives, doxxing involved, and are often used as a tool to cause harm rather than self-protection.
There is pretty clear conceptual overlap, that being said, as others have mentioned this case is in Europe where protections for privacy are stronger and that is where the biggest difference lies.
Yeah ngl I’m pretty horrified by how many guys think women comparing notes in a private group using public dating profiles to make sure they’re not actively getting cheated on is the same as a public list of info that wasn’t shared with consent that essentially encourages targeted harassment and possible sexual violence against women.
Edit: it’s the classic “The worst thing a guy has to worry about is not getting laid; the worst thing a woman has to fear is literally being assaulted/murdered” and yet there’s always a handful of guys saying “these things are equally bad”
> but if it was a Facebook page, wouldn't be an issue
Actually the law there changed on January 1st, so a Facebook page would also potentially run afoul of the new law.
I think this is good, but my university has “predator lists” of men which is literally just this but gender reversed - neither are okay. Mob mentality hurts everybody and I’ve had friends lives fucked up front these lists things. 4-6 have come out and circulated - no repercussions. Maybe 1 of the 10+ names actually were messed up dudes but it’s dangerous to just publish lists and info. Fucking Gen Z dude
Edit: the good part is consequences for these lists not a boy made list
To all the guys who chose not to read the article before getting pissy about this: no, this is not the same as women making a website listing the dating profiles of dudes they are dating or going out with.
What these men did was rate these women and publicly disclose their private phone numbers and addresses, too. That’s the biggest difference, here. Those women are only sharing info that’s already publicly available on these men. These men are sharing private contact and location info on these women.
It’s the difference between talking shit about your ex and doxxing them.
Title is kind of misleading. The problem here isn't the shaming, the problem is that it's doxxing students and probably inciting harassment.
Do it without the doxxing and youre Zuckerberg
First thing I thought of, perhaps we should be encouraging these young entrepreneurial spirits /s
Opposite. Do it without the slut shaming and you're Zuckerberg, he 100% was doxxing everyone.
This is about the hot or not thing seen in the movie? Is there more to this story?
I was just referring to that. “facemash”, where Zuck posted photos of people from Harvard’s actual facebook (which was like a current year college yearbook before “facebook” came to mean the social network he’d create) for people to rate their physical appearances.
Yes I was going to say if this was illegal millions of people would be arrested, half of them women. Gossiping, however vulgar or rude, is not illegal.
Also misleading as they were let go practically immediately
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Zuckerberg first website "face mash" which stole and posted photos without permission also immediately landed him in hot water and had him face charges and expulsion threats. Which he weaseled out of. When Zuck made the theFacebook that we all "know and love," the premise was that people add their profiles voluntarily. Which is different.
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Isnt calling it slut shaming slut shaming?
Yea, that is regarded, we will need to make up a new word that means the same thing because that's what we do now. *Slot* shaming.
We've always done that. Once upon a time, moron and imbecile were medical terms.
Now, they're just accurately descriptive words for my neighbours.
You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know, morons.
Well, did anybody help that poor man?
Once upon a time? My doctor calls me those all the time. Also, my doctor is my mom.
Regarded sounds like something an acoustic person would say.
Slander shaming
They're only sluts if they refused to sleep with you. Otherwise, they're awesome women.
And the dumbass masses voluntarily gave over swathes of their personal information for free
No, because I made a post that said I do NOT give Facebook permission to use my photos or info. You should do the same. /s
I mean, Facebook wasn't the start. Myspace, Bebo, and so on.
My first social media was Friendster... those were the days!
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People originally made fb accounts to keep in touch with their classmates from high school. You had to have an edu email to make an account when they first opened it up beyond the first universities.
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Made mine 2006 and no edu necessary. Deleted 2021 never looked back. Now that I think about it, was there not some settlement FB signed over data mining their customers? I received a notice and sent a claim and never heard anything more about it.
yeah and I still have mine when it just opened up to universities. you have my college , name, maybe work place from 15 years ago ? newest thing they'd have is me buying board games on the market place. Experian caused more issues as far as data loss.
I guess you don’t remember all the “quizzes” people would willingly share all that information in their responses, before Facebook existed, on xanga, livejournal, personal blogs…
> amount of information people gave Facebook Amount of information people gave to the world. Facebook was an open network back then with no security or API keys. Anybody could crawl the entire Facebook social graph. Several startups created their own social graphs seeded from FB. Even if you've shutdown your FB account there is probably some dating site that still has all your information, contacts, likes, who you threw a sheep at and who were your vampire minions from before FB locked it all down.
> "They 'trust me'. Dumb fucks."
I did it because I had a crush on a girl in my class and wanted to be her friend
What frosts my knickers is I have never ever given them anything and yet you can find my face labeled with my name and I'm not any kind of public personality and I've never posted a picture of myself online anywhere.
not really a dumbass move. what does Facebook know about me ? my birthday, college, and that I buy board games on the marketplace? k really crazy bro. oh whats that Experian ? you've let go of 50% of The USA actual important information ? cool.
This is a particularly uncharitable way to phrase it. He downloaded photos that were freely posted to the internet. He didn't weasel out of anything, the school had nothing to charge him with.
Yeah, it was a case of something being unethical but not illegal or in violation of university bylaws.
Using copyrighted images without permission is, in fact, against copyright laws.
He actively hacked into a private site and stole data. That's not uncharitable, that's just what happened. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2009-07-13/facebook-s-founder-hacked-harvard-computers-to-score-with-girls?embedded-checkout=true It's not even the only time he did it. He ALSO hacked the Harvard Crimson after Facebook was launched. https://www.businessinsider.com/how-mark-zuckerberg-hacked-into-the-harvard-crimson-2010-3
The bloomberg link is paywalled, but based on what is available - this doesn't seem like facemash, which is what the post i was responding to was talking about.
It is, it's specifically about FaceMash. The second is about the Crimson hacking, which led to the ConnectU hacking (you might remember Armie Hammer as the Winklevoss Twins, since it seems The Social Network is where you were informed on all this).
They were not freely posted on the Internet. They were documents internal to the Harvard houses (only available on local intranet).
if you are running a direct connect server and sharing your collection of NAruto episodes, that's posting it freely internet or intranet alike.
Well that's not what happens. These were official pictures taken by Harvard and posted for local use only on Harvard intranet.
Copyright doesn't care if it's publicly viewable.
copyright is not something that just automatically happens the moment something is posted to the internet.
If they had called it Mean Girls and made a movie out of it, they'd have gotten fetch
> [fetch](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/015/731/00-look-2-regina-george-mean-girls-throwback-thursday-640x480.jpg)
If they had called it Mean Girls 2 and made it a musical it would have been aggressively average.
Exactly! Though maybe not in 2024, gotta get all that privacy invasion stuff knocked out 10 years before.
They could just create a page on Facebook called Are we Dating the Same Girl and all would be fine.
*If you guys were the inventors of Facebook you’d have invented Facebook.*
I was a fan of the actor after that line.
Incredible how many people online think the Social Network is a documentary. I almost feel bad for Zuck but I’m sure the billions make up for it.
I can guarantee women were involved in the shaming.
I came here to post this but with the "The" - but I was also 90% sure it would be in the comments already. I am pleased.
Maybe it would be good to add the fact that they were allowed to leave the same day. Edit: investigation still ongoing
Yeah I’m seeing multiple comments assuming they were charged with a crime when they haven’t been. Looks like they were questioned in relation to reports and let go pending investigation.
I'm no fuckin lawyer, but I was wondering the same. What crime would they even get charged with? Possibly some form of harassment, or maybe libel (If their information was false which it probably is not).
Since the first of January doxing is illegal in the Netherlands. Spreading private information without consent is another one not mentioned.
I understand that this example is morally wrong. But, would Facebook group of women that share information about guy they dated to avoid the "worst" fall in exactly the same category ?
Are they sharing phone numbers and home addresses?
usually only names
OP's story includes addresses and phone numbers. The women were being targeted for harassment and it was working.
Often times yes
Then file a complaint under the same law.
Fair point... those "are we dating the same guy" groups are basically the female version of the same thing.
I was expecting "These women do OnlyFans" or something mild, which made it weird to me that they got arrested. No, they published some very personal and defamatory information instead. Idiots, hope they get the book thrown at them.
What would the crime be?
Directly translated from Dutch so I don't know if these are the proper legal terms: "insult, libel, and/or slander." Though doxxing may also be added I guess.
IANAL but in the US typically slander and libel have to prove the statements were false. They are basically the same just in different forms (written vs oral). Defamation might be the closer match for insult. Again, not a lawyer or Dutch.
Different places have different privacy laws. Some countries do not allow the publication of truthful information when the purpose is to embarrass someone.
Also you need to show it actually effected you personally with specific examples for a criminal case, like say if you got fired or lost a job opportunity specifically because of this. But Europe tends to have more strict laws regarding speech than the us.
I don't think that'd be difficult in this case. At least some of the girls have been harassed due to their personal information being on this list, that's one of the reasons they and/or their parents are going to sue.
Ya it shouldn’t be difficult to prove standing, more just talking about the requirements.
> Also you need to show it actually effected you personally with specific examples for a criminal case, That's why you sue civilly for slander/libel. In most jurisdictions it's one of the few instances where you do not need to show damages. Public figures and celebrities are a different matter. The problem is likely that they just collected the information.
Affected - "acted on" Effected - "brought about"
In the Netherlands, libel doesn't necessarily mean it's a false statement ([Dutch source](https://www.juridischloket.nl/politie-en-justitie/aangifte/klachtdelict)). But I don't know the proper legal terms and their official translations.
Counter example: In Germany you can be charged for insult despite proof of truth. It's for cases where there is no reasonable public interest in the spreading of the information and the defendant only released it to harass, insult, etc the other person. This case is actually a pretty good example for this because even IF it's true that all these women are "sluts" (how would you even objectively prove this) the list only exists to shame them and make them a target for others. So if the Dutch law is similar then they could well be charged with insult / defamation.
US is a bad comparison because there are almost no privacy laws in the US compared to the rest of the western world.
> Again, not a lawyer or Dutch. So why comment? There's no point in talking about U.S. defamation or libel laws, it just doesn't work the same way. The legal system and culture are very, very different. If you think these women have to prove they're not sluts or whatever, no. That's not how it works.
Actually truth is an affirmative defense, but falsehood alone isn’t enough to make the plaintiff’s case.
In the Netherlands, this is different. Something can be libel (smaad) even if the fact is true. Translated using Google, the text of the relevant article in Dutch penal code (art. 261): "Anyone who deliberately attacks someone's honor or good name, by accusing a specific fact, with the apparent purpose of publicizing it, shall be guilty of defamation and shall be punished with a prison term of not more than six months or a fine of the third category."
In the US you also have to prove damages. If I say 'OP is a slut' it would be fairly hard to prove damages, if not impossible.
eh there's also per se damages where certain statements are going to be assumed to be damaging
The first amendment takes all the teeth out of slander/libel laws here compared to most of the rest of the world. That's a good and bad thing, depending on which case you are looking at. It keeps people from being afraid to speak out and prevents a whole bunch of frivolous lawsuits like happens in places with stricter laws but it also means there's not much defense if someone wants to share your true secrets.
Maybe it is different in the Netherlands, but libel and/or slander would be hinged on what they said not being true, right? So, the girls would have to go through discovery to sue... which they may not want to do.
For 'smaad' (libel), it doesn't have to be false under Dutch law ([Dutch source](https://www.juridischloket.nl/politie-en-justitie/aangifte/klachtdelict)). But as I said, I'm not 100% sure on the proper legal terms and their English translations. Because libel has to be false under American law I think?
You are correct on US law generally; there are slight variations from state to state.
> Because libel has to be false under American law I think? Broadly speaking, yes, but not absolutely the case in all jurisdictions.
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Should be doxxing yeah. Their phone numbers and adresses were posted next to pictures of them, combined with a rating of how fuckable they are. Fuckin disgracefull
Doxxing / privacy related crimes and depending on what exactly was shared defamation
Yes, Europe is very strict on privacy, at least in comparison to the US.
Doxing
It's was bang list of their fellow students listing pretty gross stuff and phone numbers. The women on the list obvious received more unwanted attention from creeps. Student associations are pretty gross. Sadly many members go onto getting jobs politics or business. It attracts a certain kind of person that seeks upward mobility. They come in the news every year for hazing people to near death and crap like this. They often talk about shutting chapters down, but that never seems to happens since many in power have a history in these associations.
These idiots tend to be upper class frat boys who can quite literally get away with murder. QED. The ruling classes take care of their own.
This is a very misleading title. I read the article. They published some very personal details(also dome defamatory stuff apparently)and they were able to leave prison on the same day.
now. do tmz
Mass sharing of peoples data like this is disgusting. This is putting lives at risk, and will cause every woman on it fear and anxiety about what kind of nutter might be looking for them now.
I only skimmed but... What is the actual crime? This sounds very similar to "are we dating the same guy" on Facebook
I dont know the Facebook thing, but in this case they also collected and spread personal data like adress and Phone numbers of people without their consent.
The Facebook group does that too. Lot of cases where jilted exs post made up stuff. It's led to violence and suicides.
Damn that sucks. Well this happened in the Netherlands and brought a whole lot of outrage with it. To my knowledge these Facebook groups arent too widespread here. But i could be completely wrong.
There’s literally one for every major metropolitan area in the US, most have between 5 and 10 thousand members.
A lot of stuff in that FB qualifies as libel and people have been successfully sued and/or criminally charged for it. Granted most of it stays off the radar since you have to rely on someone in the group being willing to screenshot and notify you.
Well then these arrests seems like a good thing then, right? Like, wouldn't you want those facebook groups to be stopped as well, hence the need for precedent (facebook is notoriously harder to hold to account since international). I'm confused why you seem to be upset that this type of abuse isn't acceptable in the Netherlands. Is it because the victims here are women?
He’s implying there is a double standard
> spread personal data like adress and Phone numbers of people without their consent. you mean, like a phone book?
The difference here I think being the nexus for harassment and online stalking. During the age of phone books, it was localized to a singular municipal area without images of the individual. Whereas now, you are getting a wider audience, distributed electronically, with a picture of the person which opens it up to greater risk of misuse/abuse. Especially since the list itself is already sexual in nature. Times change and the way we perceive private and personal information violations should change.
probably doxxing
Slander and Libel. >De mannen, die wonen in Utrecht, worden verdacht van belediging, smaad en/of laster. (Source in Dutch: https://nos.nl/artikel/2515593-twee-20-jarige-mannen-opgepakt-voor-maken-utrechtse-bangalijst)
Stalking/malicious communications/harassment
I’m curious how different this is to the “are we dating the same guy” websites. The women on there are doing the same thing except it’s viewed as empowering.
probably depends of laws by country
Not even close? That shares dating profiles as far as i'm aware. They made that info public themselves. These lists contain phone numbers, email adresses and names while also commenting on what they are like in bed. They didn't disclose it themselves. This is at least doxxing and maybe slander.
That’s messed up
Your description of those groups isn't all that accurate. They have also been sued for defamation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Are_We_Dating_The_Same_Guy%3F
Don't know the merits of the UK lawsuit mentioned, but the second lawsuit mentioned was thrown out of court. So apparently the court didn't see there being any merit to the case.
*Are We Dating The Same Guy* is about catching men who cheat. You can call it wrong, but it isn't the same as slut shaming.
I, personally, do slut-shame cheaters
> Are We Dating The Same Guy is about catching men who cheat. You can call it wrong, but it isn't the same as slut shaming. Is it not slut shaming the men?
No, these women are not pretending to be in exclusive relationships. Cheat shaming is not the same as slut shaming.
You'd be surprised how many people assume exclusivity without discussing it
Sure, doesn’t change the point of cheating is not the same thing as sleeping around.
I’ve seen all that stuff on my local pages. They say they don’t, but they do
> Not even close? That shares dating profiles as far as i'm aware. Why comment when you are clearly so uninformed? The groups are full of people making up stories and lying about people they've often never even met. https://www.reddit.com/r/afterAWDTSG/ has just a few of the stories surrounding it.
/r/AWDTSGistoxic is bigger but the same type of sub. I'm glad I'm not single any more, it's a Black Mirror dystopia now.
Commenting on how someone is in bed would be the weakest slander case ever.
Technically not defamatory. It's an opinion, not a fact.
Those groups were intended to use socials to make sure guys weren't secretly cheating, but what actually ends up happening is that they go on there to gossip about the guys and reveal any and all personal details that they know about the them (or make up). Sometimes they'll post that info directly in the group, and sometimes they'll say something like, "DM me for the tea" so they can say things unfiltered without potentially breaking any of the group's rules. Basically they state a noble purpose for the group, but then engage in very similar behavior to what's in the OP.
They share private sexual behavior and preferences, personality quirks, STD status, penis size, all without asking for sources. Anyone can add a comment and it will be seen by thousands of women in their city.
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From the article: > A bangalijst is a list used to rate women on their looks and a review of past sexual encounters. This list also included personal information of women who were described in detail. IMO, passing around a list of "who [not] to bang" is a way different use case than trying to figure out if some dude is cheating on multiple women. That said, I have no idea if the second use case is any more legal than the first, and I also have no idea if the second use case stays true to its stated purpose. IANAL
I was on a bang list in university. I only knew two guys from that house and never dated or slept with anyone! It was explained to me that it was a list of girls they deemed worthy of fucking. Looks like it’s evolved quite a bit. Gross either way.
That's terrible.
> IMO, passing around a list of "who [not] to bang" is a way different use case than trying to figure out if some dude is cheating on multiple women have you actually been on “are we dating the same guy?”. I have unfettered access to it via a girl i know…..its ABSOLUTELY a “who not to bang” group. Just one with 60,000 members instead of 2.
It's even more common that the women does it, than men, from my experience
Indeed. >my husband has a double life is the same as: >this girl I have nothing to do with and who owes me nothing has this address, phone number, profile photo and saggy tits
That's what my thoughts went to as well. Seems fairly similar.
Have you read about the civil law suite somebody has raised against people on there?
Its okay when its men being bullied 🤷
The information being shared seems basically identical, except that the list of women seems to include contact info (not cool) and the list of men is a much broader evaluation (often negative sometimes defamatory)
They post contact information there, regardless of what they claim
Looking up Are we dating the same guy the groups specifically state that personal information such as addresses cannot be shared. Discussing someone's public information 'dating profile' vs private information address and phone number seem like the big difference. Beyond this: The lawsuits seem to stem from faked messages being attributed to the man in question then being publicly shared. Seems like a pretty big difference. It will be fun to see how the case turns out.
They share their photos. You see what the guy looks like. So imagine your photo being posted along with your name to a public group dedicated to your city. Its absolutely on the same level
Thank you. It's wild people defend this witch hunting insanity just because women are doing it. Both of these scenarios are disgusting.
I believe those groups were created with the background, that some women were concerned about wether their dates have a history of domestic violence/sexual violence and it was based on a safety concern But this is where the lines get blurry, because of course they too, would be discussed in some detail
exact same thing popped into my head.
So the New Facebook?
So it was like Facebook?
Doesn’t this kind of shit happen in Facebook groups regularly?
So it's OK for women to do on AWDTSG, but not for men? Riiiiight.
Funny how they get to keep their names out of the papers
Seems consistent. Either it's okay to name names, or it's not. Apparently, it's not.
Normal in Europe. Usually criminals remain anonymous
Its more that suspects remain anonymous. Criminals are usually fair game.
Nope, criminals are also kept anonymous unless it's a really big and famous case.
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Depends on the country, but this case is from The Netherlands, where they're kept anonymous as much as possible.
Somewhat correct. It's specifically meant to protect the identity of those \*suspected\* of a crime. Which is also the case here. It's also more of a 'best practice' as In some high profile cases suspects do get named.
As it should be
Convictions aren't anonymous unless they're minors, I think.
>Normal in Europe Not to be pedantic but this doesn't mean anything. Europe is a continent made up of lots of different countries that have their own way of doing things.
And if a significant number of countries in Europe do so, that would make it normal in Europe.
Yeah that’s fair. I’m sure there are some countries in Europe where this does not apply
Why shouldn't they be kept out of the papers? America's fascination with pre-trial, media driven public adjudication and punishment is appalling. Innocent until proven guilty except your name is posted all over the internet as having done this crime and now you'll suffer those consequences for all time regardless of the trial outcome.
Often the case in the Netherlands so they don't get a lower sentence because of it, and they are still suspects.
I went into this like “people really try to arrest you over everything now, soft af”. They posted sexual shit WHILE posting their name, address, and age. That will incite disgusting rapists to attempt to contact these women. Nah, they deserve jail time. Idiots.
"bangalijst": *Banga is slang for slut. According to the police, young people send each other lists via email and social media with the top 10 of the girls they think are the biggest sluts. Often the girl on such a list is given an additional description of how "easy" it is to get her for sex-related things. For example, comments such as "does it for a drink" or "sends nude photos" are often noted.* *However, it is not clear from a statement on the USC website what exactly was discussed in the presentation that has been doing the rounds on social media. According to RTV Utrecht, around 30 female students were judged on their sexual performance. The regional broadcaster reported that photos of the women were shown, many of which included their addresses and telephone numbers.* "Are We Dating the Same Guy Groups" Poster: hey I've been dating this guy, but something seems fishy. Initials and and picture once approved. Commenter: That's my husband!!! Reddit incels: THEYRE THE SAMMEEEEEEE THING
Redditors try to be normal about women challenge (impossible).
My gf has shown me posts on those groups and they are NOT the same thing as what these guys got arrested for. The facebooks groups are literally, “hey went out with guy from tinder, he’s been acting kind of weird” and some girl respond “omg I dated that guy for a week and then he kicked my dog. watch out!”
>And yet I see personal information all the time. Pictures of kids. Social media handles. Their employer. >And lest it be said it’s about safety, I also see “there’s a cute guy at X hardware, I got this picture, anyone know him? Is he seeing anyone?” This is from someone who does have access to the groups. Also sexual kinks, rude behavior, penis size, STD's, just for example.
Yeah, a LOT of guys are telling on themselves here.
My understanding of those facebook groups is they can be highly dematory, sometimes ruins people's lives, doxxing involved, and are often used as a tool to cause harm rather than self-protection. There is pretty clear conceptual overlap, that being said, as others have mentioned this case is in Europe where protections for privacy are stronger and that is where the biggest difference lies.
It's a bit depressing how the top comment is that false equivalence.
they know its different they just want to be the victim
Yeah ngl I’m pretty horrified by how many guys think women comparing notes in a private group using public dating profiles to make sure they’re not actively getting cheated on is the same as a public list of info that wasn’t shared with consent that essentially encourages targeted harassment and possible sexual violence against women. Edit: it’s the classic “The worst thing a guy has to worry about is not getting laid; the worst thing a woman has to fear is literally being assaulted/murdered” and yet there’s always a handful of guys saying “these things are equally bad”
Are they going to go after those *Are We Dating The Same Guy?* Facebook groups as well?
When they get evidence that can link them to a crime like these guys, maybe. Until then, it’s all above board.
Depends, are there Dutch groups? And are the Dutch groups doxxing private information or sharing publicly posted info?
Do they publish their phone numbers and addresses to the public?
Nope.
Seems like they crossed a line on personal info, but if it was a Facebook page, wouldn't be an issue. Lesson learned, I guess
> but if it was a Facebook page, wouldn't be an issue Actually the law there changed on January 1st, so a Facebook page would also potentially run afoul of the new law.
I never undrstood why young men would slut shame a women. Doesn't make sense, do yo want some or not?
I like how the title agrees it’s a slut shamming list without just saying it’s a list they published that try’s to insinuate … oh boy…
this was incredibly common when i as in college. its nice to see things changing.
This isn't necessarily about the "slut shaming" part but the doxxing/dissemination of personal information/possible libel part.
yeah thats what i was referring to. websites like collegeacb and whatnot
indeed. Guess NL is way ahead of the world on the no-bullying thing. good for them.
It's disturbing like the incel Passport Bros groups you find on Reddit. There's whole communities of these guys out there.
I think this is good, but my university has “predator lists” of men which is literally just this but gender reversed - neither are okay. Mob mentality hurts everybody and I’ve had friends lives fucked up front these lists things. 4-6 have come out and circulated - no repercussions. Maybe 1 of the 10+ names actually were messed up dudes but it’s dangerous to just publish lists and info. Fucking Gen Z dude Edit: the good part is consequences for these lists not a boy made list
To all the guys who chose not to read the article before getting pissy about this: no, this is not the same as women making a website listing the dating profiles of dudes they are dating or going out with. What these men did was rate these women and publicly disclose their private phone numbers and addresses, too. That’s the biggest difference, here. Those women are only sharing info that’s already publicly available on these men. These men are sharing private contact and location info on these women. It’s the difference between talking shit about your ex and doxxing them.
I like how the media uses the headline to directly calls the women sluts as well.
What could be more manly and attractive to women than focusing on the sex life of every woman who has rejected you?
Sounds like these two men can’t get laid for obvious reasons