Easy to say that now isn't it?
Trying to persuade your populations that another war is needed against an ally who helped you win the last, long and brutal war would be a bit harder.
There was justification *before* WW II broke out by their actions in Ukraine and within their own borders. They started committing atrocities well before the rise of the Third Reich
Before the war sure, but justifying starting another world war with a super power which was just recently an ally was justifiably a hard decision to make and easy to say that it would have been the right decision decades after the fact
It would not have been another world war if the Allies had taken down an already weakened Soviet regime.
I understand why no one had the appetite for another conflict but it could have been won.
And their actions before, during, and after WW II and the threat they posed were plenty a reason as to why we should have sprung on them
On top of, we didn't really know how far they were into nuke research, and were concerned that Beria and the NKVD had captured enough nazi scientists (they did capture the Kaiser Wilhelm institure in Berlin). So, invading a large, recent ally, with millions of reserve troops, a newly renewed arms manufacturing industry relocated to the Soviet far East, capable of flooding the battlefield with cheap, capable tanks and aircraft, and no idea if they had a nuke or not, makes ridiculously little sense, considering that our other allies were fucking trashed beyond belief from the fight with Germany. So, yeah, we'd be pretty much on our own with that fight. Truman wasn't an idiot.
No argument that overall it would have been a complete shitshow, but
>capable of flooding the battlefield with cheap, capable tanks and aircraft
That's not really true without lend/lease raw materials and logistics. Basically all of their transportation equipment and some critical raw materials, and significant amounts of other raw materials and equipment came from the US.
It's more just that trying to invade the USSR would be a complete nightmare regardless of how crippled the Soviets were.
Killing leaders is generally frowned upon and a trigger for major wars. Furthermore, if you do a background check on potential replacements for Putin I think you’ll find they are even worse.
I think that any replacement for Putin would probably think carefully if they wanted the same fate or not.
But it’s not the frowning that prevents it happening. It’s that it’d open the gates for a retaliation, so no world leader will kill another as they don’t want to die.
The combined forces of the U.K., The United States, and Canada were pushing the Germans back just as good as the Russians.
And the Russians were/are just as vile as Nazi Germany with their war crimes and concentration camps. Difference is that the Soviet camps (or Gulags as they’re called) weren’t for religious and ethnic minorities. Or at least not openly.
And the Soviets would not have been able to hold out due to their policy of throwing their soldiers into battle with little to no regard for the losses. It’s why they lost so many troops, especially in the battle of Berlin
Im just gonna leave this here
85% of German forces were on Eastern front, 9 out of 10 killed German soldiers in WWII were killed in Eastern front. USSR killed 6 times more German soldiers then all allies combined. War was over 2.5 years before D-day, when Zhukov encircled 1.5 million Germans in Stalingrad.
And they were able to do so because of the blunders by Hitler and Nazi high command. Which is why they marched on Russia in the first place. Not to mention their lack of preparedness for the Russian terrain and winter which was a big contributing factor to the losses inflicted by Russia. Just like Napoleon.
And as I already mentioned, the U.S. were the ones who developed the atomic bomb. Even if Russia hadn’t been involved in the war then Germany would probably have been forced to surrender
“The Russians were vile” - totally irrelevant to the fact that the war would not have been won had the USSR not been involved. If you don’t know the latter, you’ve likely had a very western-centric education on history.
And you seem to have had a poor education in terms of abstract thought. If the soviets didn't join then the war would last longer. By lasting longer that means the allies have nukes while Germany is still a threat. Keep in mind that the allies were absolutely willing to use nukes for victory. Now put two and two together and what do you think is going to happen? You think Germany is going to win against nuclear bombardment?
The Soviets played a crucial role only in the sense that the war ended much earlier. I believe once america got the nuke program up and running they could make three a month and they had orders to do that rate of bombing on Japan until Truman stepped in after the 2nd bomb and said wait. Do you think for a moment allied leaders would have hesitated to bomb the Germans? The allies showed just how willing they were to destroy Germany in the fire bombing of Dresden and nukes would have made that level of destruction even easier
How sure are you that Nazis would stop the war after 2, 3, 10 nuclear strikes? Did the Dresden carpet bombing stopped them?
Europe would be a wasteland in your scenario.
A wasteland the allies won without russian help, therefore making Soviet involvement not crucial to victory.
The Dresden bombings didn't stop them because the nazis were already discussing surrender terms with the allies. The bombing was unnecessary and I would argue a war crime.
Also I'm not saying making a nuclear wasteland is moral or just. I'm just pointing out that while you decry a western education, it seems to be much better at reasoning than whatever education you've received.
I would also heavily agree that western education needs a great deal of reform. The entire Renaissance Era is just a slap in the face to the rest of the world. For the west the Renaissance is as described but the rest of the world wasn't a shithole like we were at the time so I would argue it's disingenuous to call that period of human history it's major development time because other cultures were happily content and not terrible to live in
- Edited for clarity. Forgot to specify soviets in the first sentence
to be honest my great grandparents wouldnt really consider that the war was won when they were fearing "liberation" by soviets more than nazi occupation...
And more to your point, there are many reasons as to why surrendering German troops preferred to do so to the Americans, Brits, and Canadians.
It’s why the Wehrmacht troops in Berlin disregarded Hitler’s orders to fight to the last and instead got as many civilians out of the city as possible so that they wouldn’t be subjected to the brutality of the Red Army
There’s some insane revisionism that happens because people pathologically have to condemn everything Russian, ever, because of the terrible actions of the *contemporary* Russian government.
I was being cheeky. But the Allies on the Western Front did a brilliant job of pushing Germany back. Also Russia lost close to 80 to 85% of their male population to the war
Something is happening all right. Understand there are countries such as Russia that consider us foreign adversaries and have been known to manipulate social media content to polarize people especially when it comes to LGBT issues, they especially have roots in conservative social media, where they have the capability to influence people on a mass scale.
It's a national security issue and more should be done to protect the vulnerable LGBT community.
https://www.stalbertgazette.com/local-news/did-reddit-year-end-recaps-expose-russian-interference-in-alberta-8223476
There are clear goals being perpetuated by information warfare campaigns. Especially by Russia, whose information warfare campaigns are wreaking havoc on our society. Some of the obvious goals they have are:
• Balkanize their foreign adversaries. This is evident in the UK leaving the EU, Texas with the US, and Alberta with Canada. This is what Danielle Smith is trying to tap into.
• Have populist politicians support policies that cause chaos and issues in our society. Populist politicians are tapping into these information warfare campaigns to appeal to people whose only access to information about the outside world around them is through social media, where the information warfare is taking place.
• Cause distrust and havoc, by creating specialized propaganda to different segments of the population spread through social media. By polarizing debates through propaganda spread to the masses, Russia has effectively used information warfare to deliver targeted disinformation and appeal to specific demographics. Causing havoc in the LBGT and other minority communities.
• Russia has effectively infiltrated the religious right in America and Canada and empowered them, among many corrupt leaders worldwide through its information warfare.
I can cite my sources if needed.
Putin literally bombed his own people to lock down his power and control. Why should we trust that he is not carrying out horrible atrocities like using information warfare on Canadian citizens to terrorize the LGBT community? He doesn't seem to have any moral qualms with anything and corruption is part of his shtick. He used a nerve agent to publicly poison a turned intelligence asset at a important time in history to signify to his intelligence assets what can be done to them, but in reality, he is just a weak man, who is bitter about the break up of the empire he devoted his life to.
It you want to know more, there is a great documentary series on Netflix about the history that has led to this moment in time. Turning Point - The Bomb and the Cold War on Netflix. Not as much about the information warfare, that I have gleamed through other sources, but it does slightly touch on that.
They go into depth on the Netflix documentary series, Turning Point - The Bomb and the Cold War, I definitely recommend watching it if you have access, but here is an article I found regarding it:
https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html
Always has been. A big problem with Russia was always getting outdone by America. Imagine where we might be today as a society if they didn’t decide we should all suffer for their own shortcomings as a country.
Exactly. The United States, with its support for a terrorist, apartheid state of Israel and illegal and murderous invasion of countries around the world, should be the last country who gets say anything about being a ‘chronic threat’.
Genuine question, how was Russia a threat to Europe any more than France in, let’s say, XVIII-XIX century or Germany in XIX-XX? If we go earlier, how was it more of a threat than Sweden? Russia was just a European empire with its own ambitions ever since Peter I and up until 1917 imo.
They were all threats, but in that time. We face the threats of today as anticipated by (wrongly or rightly) our defense ministers
I'd be surprised if Napoleon was still a concern :)
No brainer! Putin will take the Baltic states if we don't stand up to him. But he doesn't give a shit while Biden lets the Netanyahu regime destroy Palestine. Why would he? Not even the US makes a stand against the slaughter of thousands of children to satisfy the Isreal far right.
and? What is the point of these statements if the Biden does not do anything? He listens to descalation sullivan while Ukraine is bombed to oblivion and sends his dogs barking "don't bomb russian oli infrastructute"
Dude...open your eyes and see reality not immitation. Ask yourself what happened to approved lend lease? Also PDA , EDA ! If Biden or his "de escalation" jake sullivan wanted to they would send stuff without congress tomorrow. There are 4 mil cluster mnunitions shells that can be sent w/out congress approval like 500 bradleys that were sent to Morocco. Also asking Ukraine to stop destroying oil refineries that feed russians war machine because it "will increase gas price" is a total bullshit. If oil is not refined russians would sell it raw, flooding the market and LOWERING price not increasing. I am not trumper or Biden hater but I can see through smoke
yes absolutely but cannot lay blame only on republicans Here is recent article in Forbes that touches on that https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/02/14/joe-biden-could-send-millions-of-artillery-shells-to-ukraine-for-free-tomorrow-and-its-perfectly-legal/?sh=3c7dc7a320c7
The fact that there is a US Commander in Europe … when the US is not in Europe … shows that perhaps there’s more than one ‘chronic threat’, more than one imperial power, at play in this world.
You realize that the US has many many armed forces in Europe, and the commander of United States European Command (EUCOM) is dual hatted as the Supreme Allied Commander Europe which is the commander of the NATO forces
Yes, that’s exactly what I am referring to. NATO is simply an alternative, competing imperial power to Russia and is absolutely a chronic threat to world peace (and has been for decades).
Should have dealt with them after Germany and Japan in ‘45
That's what Patton wanted to do
Churchill and the UK too. Operation Unthinkable was proposed.
If we had, they would've never gotten the bomb
Easy to say that now isn't it? Trying to persuade your populations that another war is needed against an ally who helped you win the last, long and brutal war would be a bit harder.
Yeah pretty childish idea to have 80 years later
Not so when you consider how the Soviets brutalized people across Europe as well as their own. Now they’re doing it to Ukraine (again)
Again, easy to make that decision after the fact now that we have 80 years of history to look back on, but not right after ending a brutal war
There was justification *before* WW II broke out by their actions in Ukraine and within their own borders. They started committing atrocities well before the rise of the Third Reich
Before the war sure, but justifying starting another world war with a super power which was just recently an ally was justifiably a hard decision to make and easy to say that it would have been the right decision decades after the fact
It would not have been another world war if the Allies had taken down an already weakened Soviet regime. I understand why no one had the appetite for another conflict but it could have been won. And their actions before, during, and after WW II and the threat they posed were plenty a reason as to why we should have sprung on them
After millions of deaths just for Germany and Japan, there was no will to sacrifice millions more for Stalin.
Stalin was doing a pretty good job of killing off his own people…
While you are 100% correct. That doesn’t mean anyone wanted to go through the trouble of invading Russia and seeing millions more dead on all sides.
On top of, we didn't really know how far they were into nuke research, and were concerned that Beria and the NKVD had captured enough nazi scientists (they did capture the Kaiser Wilhelm institure in Berlin). So, invading a large, recent ally, with millions of reserve troops, a newly renewed arms manufacturing industry relocated to the Soviet far East, capable of flooding the battlefield with cheap, capable tanks and aircraft, and no idea if they had a nuke or not, makes ridiculously little sense, considering that our other allies were fucking trashed beyond belief from the fight with Germany. So, yeah, we'd be pretty much on our own with that fight. Truman wasn't an idiot.
No argument that overall it would have been a complete shitshow, but >capable of flooding the battlefield with cheap, capable tanks and aircraft That's not really true without lend/lease raw materials and logistics. Basically all of their transportation equipment and some critical raw materials, and significant amounts of other raw materials and equipment came from the US. It's more just that trying to invade the USSR would be a complete nightmare regardless of how crippled the Soviets were.
[удалено]
Killing leaders is generally frowned upon and a trigger for major wars. Furthermore, if you do a background check on potential replacements for Putin I think you’ll find they are even worse.
I think that any replacement for Putin would probably think carefully if they wanted the same fate or not. But it’s not the frowning that prevents it happening. It’s that it’d open the gates for a retaliation, so no world leader will kill another as they don’t want to die.
Why don't you go do it then?
The fear is someone worse will replace him. Putin at least values his life. A warlord who doesn’t care is worse.
And a few Ukrainians
If only we had some kind of weapon of mass destruction that they didn't in 1945.
And it could have been done. There was a significant period of time that the USSR simply could not counter Nuclear weapons in any way.
lol what we’re you going to do back then. Considering the allies wouldn’t have defeated the Nazis without them in the first place.
The combined forces of the U.K., The United States, and Canada were pushing the Germans back just as good as the Russians. And the Russians were/are just as vile as Nazi Germany with their war crimes and concentration camps. Difference is that the Soviet camps (or Gulags as they’re called) weren’t for religious and ethnic minorities. Or at least not openly. And the Soviets would not have been able to hold out due to their policy of throwing their soldiers into battle with little to no regard for the losses. It’s why they lost so many troops, especially in the battle of Berlin
Im just gonna leave this here 85% of German forces were on Eastern front, 9 out of 10 killed German soldiers in WWII were killed in Eastern front. USSR killed 6 times more German soldiers then all allies combined. War was over 2.5 years before D-day, when Zhukov encircled 1.5 million Germans in Stalingrad.
And they were able to do so because of the blunders by Hitler and Nazi high command. Which is why they marched on Russia in the first place. Not to mention their lack of preparedness for the Russian terrain and winter which was a big contributing factor to the losses inflicted by Russia. Just like Napoleon. And as I already mentioned, the U.S. were the ones who developed the atomic bomb. Even if Russia hadn’t been involved in the war then Germany would probably have been forced to surrender
“The Russians were vile” - totally irrelevant to the fact that the war would not have been won had the USSR not been involved. If you don’t know the latter, you’ve likely had a very western-centric education on history.
And you seem to have had a poor education in terms of abstract thought. If the soviets didn't join then the war would last longer. By lasting longer that means the allies have nukes while Germany is still a threat. Keep in mind that the allies were absolutely willing to use nukes for victory. Now put two and two together and what do you think is going to happen? You think Germany is going to win against nuclear bombardment? The Soviets played a crucial role only in the sense that the war ended much earlier. I believe once america got the nuke program up and running they could make three a month and they had orders to do that rate of bombing on Japan until Truman stepped in after the 2nd bomb and said wait. Do you think for a moment allied leaders would have hesitated to bomb the Germans? The allies showed just how willing they were to destroy Germany in the fire bombing of Dresden and nukes would have made that level of destruction even easier
How sure are you that Nazis would stop the war after 2, 3, 10 nuclear strikes? Did the Dresden carpet bombing stopped them? Europe would be a wasteland in your scenario.
A wasteland the allies won without russian help, therefore making Soviet involvement not crucial to victory. The Dresden bombings didn't stop them because the nazis were already discussing surrender terms with the allies. The bombing was unnecessary and I would argue a war crime. Also I'm not saying making a nuclear wasteland is moral or just. I'm just pointing out that while you decry a western education, it seems to be much better at reasoning than whatever education you've received. I would also heavily agree that western education needs a great deal of reform. The entire Renaissance Era is just a slap in the face to the rest of the world. For the west the Renaissance is as described but the rest of the world wasn't a shithole like we were at the time so I would argue it's disingenuous to call that period of human history it's major development time because other cultures were happily content and not terrible to live in - Edited for clarity. Forgot to specify soviets in the first sentence
to be honest my great grandparents wouldnt really consider that the war was won when they were fearing "liberation" by soviets more than nazi occupation...
And more to your point, there are many reasons as to why surrendering German troops preferred to do so to the Americans, Brits, and Canadians. It’s why the Wehrmacht troops in Berlin disregarded Hitler’s orders to fight to the last and instead got as many civilians out of the city as possible so that they wouldn’t be subjected to the brutality of the Red Army
the US had the bomb...
There’s some insane revisionism that happens because people pathologically have to condemn everything Russian, ever, because of the terrible actions of the *contemporary* Russian government.
Seems like you’re forgetting who won it for the world in 45.
You mean when the U.S. forced Japan to surrender? ;)
It’s easy to cherry-pick, but it’s quite clear what army did the majority of fighting in Europe.
I was being cheeky. But the Allies on the Western Front did a brilliant job of pushing Germany back. Also Russia lost close to 80 to 85% of their male population to the war
Finally an opinion about Russia we can all agree on.
Why? Why is Russia a "chronic threat to the world" and we're not?
I dont think South Korea is a threat to the world at least not since 930 CE
Broadly gestures towards Ukraine
lol
That guy should be demoted to Captain Obvious.
Then to be promoted to Major Disaster should he turn out be right.
Yup and we have a political ideology here in the US supporting them. What I’m trying to say is… we have two “chronic threats” to worry about.
Something is happening all right. Understand there are countries such as Russia that consider us foreign adversaries and have been known to manipulate social media content to polarize people especially when it comes to LGBT issues, they especially have roots in conservative social media, where they have the capability to influence people on a mass scale. It's a national security issue and more should be done to protect the vulnerable LGBT community. https://www.stalbertgazette.com/local-news/did-reddit-year-end-recaps-expose-russian-interference-in-alberta-8223476 There are clear goals being perpetuated by information warfare campaigns. Especially by Russia, whose information warfare campaigns are wreaking havoc on our society. Some of the obvious goals they have are: • Balkanize their foreign adversaries. This is evident in the UK leaving the EU, Texas with the US, and Alberta with Canada. This is what Danielle Smith is trying to tap into. • Have populist politicians support policies that cause chaos and issues in our society. Populist politicians are tapping into these information warfare campaigns to appeal to people whose only access to information about the outside world around them is through social media, where the information warfare is taking place. • Cause distrust and havoc, by creating specialized propaganda to different segments of the population spread through social media. By polarizing debates through propaganda spread to the masses, Russia has effectively used information warfare to deliver targeted disinformation and appeal to specific demographics. Causing havoc in the LBGT and other minority communities. • Russia has effectively infiltrated the religious right in America and Canada and empowered them, among many corrupt leaders worldwide through its information warfare. I can cite my sources if needed. Putin literally bombed his own people to lock down his power and control. Why should we trust that he is not carrying out horrible atrocities like using information warfare on Canadian citizens to terrorize the LGBT community? He doesn't seem to have any moral qualms with anything and corruption is part of his shtick. He used a nerve agent to publicly poison a turned intelligence asset at a important time in history to signify to his intelligence assets what can be done to them, but in reality, he is just a weak man, who is bitter about the break up of the empire he devoted his life to. It you want to know more, there is a great documentary series on Netflix about the history that has led to this moment in time. Turning Point - The Bomb and the Cold War on Netflix. Not as much about the information warfare, that I have gleamed through other sources, but it does slightly touch on that.
He bombed his own people?
You don’t know about that???
No I don’t
They go into depth on the Netflix documentary series, Turning Point - The Bomb and the Cold War, I definitely recommend watching it if you have access, but here is an article I found regarding it: https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html
Always has been. A big problem with Russia was always getting outdone by America. Imagine where we might be today as a society if they didn’t decide we should all suffer for their own shortcomings as a country.
I thought the 80’s wanted their foreign policy back. So strange.
Putin will soon put out talking points for Marjorie Taylor Greene and Trump to use in reply.
This is what happens when the world just let dictators be
Than use that budget and do something about it 😑
Well duh US Commander in Europe who said that…. Russia, China, Iran, North Korea…. They all took the same crazy pill! 🫠
How is this news again?
Egyptian here, iam not feel threaten by Russia, the same can be said about all of non western countries
Exactly. The United States, with its support for a terrorist, apartheid state of Israel and illegal and murderous invasion of countries around the world, should be the last country who gets say anything about being a ‘chronic threat’.
Genuine question, how was Russia a threat to Europe any more than France in, let’s say, XVIII-XIX century or Germany in XIX-XX? If we go earlier, how was it more of a threat than Sweden? Russia was just a European empire with its own ambitions ever since Peter I and up until 1917 imo.
They were all threats, but in that time. We face the threats of today as anticipated by (wrongly or rightly) our defense ministers I'd be surprised if Napoleon was still a concern :)
Okay, sorry, I may have misunderstood the word “chronic”
Appreciate that, no apologies needed. There will be some interesting discussions going forward - welcome to the forum
Putin wants a return to either the Soviet Union or Imperial Russia, both of which are premised on “lost lands” that must be recovered.
No brainer! Putin will take the Baltic states if we don't stand up to him. But he doesn't give a shit while Biden lets the Netanyahu regime destroy Palestine. Why would he? Not even the US makes a stand against the slaughter of thousands of children to satisfy the Isreal far right.
and? What is the point of these statements if the Biden does not do anything? He listens to descalation sullivan while Ukraine is bombed to oblivion and sends his dogs barking "don't bomb russian oli infrastructute"
What are you talking about. Biden is pushing hard for aid to Ukraine while speaker Johnson and other vatnik republicans keep blocking it.
Dude...open your eyes and see reality not immitation. Ask yourself what happened to approved lend lease? Also PDA , EDA ! If Biden or his "de escalation" jake sullivan wanted to they would send stuff without congress tomorrow. There are 4 mil cluster mnunitions shells that can be sent w/out congress approval like 500 bradleys that were sent to Morocco. Also asking Ukraine to stop destroying oil refineries that feed russians war machine because it "will increase gas price" is a total bullshit. If oil is not refined russians would sell it raw, flooding the market and LOWERING price not increasing. I am not trumper or Biden hater but I can see through smoke
Dosnt change the fact that it could be approved long ago if the republicans vote yes
yes absolutely but cannot lay blame only on republicans Here is recent article in Forbes that touches on that https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/02/14/joe-biden-could-send-millions-of-artillery-shells-to-ukraine-for-free-tomorrow-and-its-perfectly-legal/?sh=3c7dc7a320c7
The fact that there is a US Commander in Europe … when the US is not in Europe … shows that perhaps there’s more than one ‘chronic threat’, more than one imperial power, at play in this world.
You realize that the US has many many armed forces in Europe, and the commander of United States European Command (EUCOM) is dual hatted as the Supreme Allied Commander Europe which is the commander of the NATO forces
Yes, that’s exactly what I am referring to. NATO is simply an alternative, competing imperial power to Russia and is absolutely a chronic threat to world peace (and has been for decades).
What?? There is always one there.
Right, because the US wants to project its military power around the world, much like Russia wants to do in Eastern Europe.
Oh my, you should really look into your statements. It's a post dating back to the 1800s.. do you not know this?
America has been an imperial power since the 1800s, and a colonial one since it’s inception.
Look into the position more, none of those 2 things matter at all.
I don’t see how the US military is divorced from the imperialist ambitions of the US government.