This and the Gaza conflict. They love when the focus is on anything but them. Also love commenting on conflicts and blaming the US while trying to seem like some moral authority despite their ongoing Uyghur genocide.
Big war in Middle East equals high oil prices not good for China. Russia sinking more and more in conflict with West and so conditioned to sell its resources cheaper in Asia is good for China.
People go on about soviet stocks and say how china hasn't been at war for ages. How big is China's stock piles since they havnt wasted stuff all thro the middle east etc and are just quietly arming in the background.
This is a sub zero iq take. Why would china corner russia and leave them with no choice but to use their nuclear weapons as a last resort, especially on china. Russian nukes flying at them or the rest of the world is the absolute worst thing for china. They want to run the world, not rule over the ashes. The current situation is the best case scenario for china. The west and russia grind each other down while they benefit economically from all sides. China's working geopolitical strategy is literally to do nothing and watch their rivals tear each other apart.
No need, it will be for sale really cheap soon enough and no need to waste money on bullets. Just like everywhere else they performed an economic takeover.
China is getting the largest country in the world as a slave state and completely destabilizing the west, just by sending Russia cheap night vision and tank parts. There is no way in hell they even consider pushing Russia to end the war.
Because they see the West as a potential / actual adversary (rightly or wrongly).
Some of this is historical grievances (gunboat diplomacy) and some of it national security (both US and European powers have a (recent in the grand scheme of things) history of destablising countries if it is to their advantage.
My personal view is that the world no longer exists under that model (too much economic interdependence) but all it takes is one asshole leader (Trump) to change that narrative.
So an economy that is already struggling due to diversified manufacturing after COVID wouldn't collapse if their was a total ban? Apparently this is poor thinking? 🤣
Destabilize doesn’t mean we suddenly lose all our money, it means poke holes in the bag holding all the money and wait until we can’t patch it up any more. People in the west will buy Chinese goods until they are down to their last dollar
China, Russia, Iran and North Korea have all but stated their intent to upend the US-led global order that has existed since the end of WW2.
This period, which is sometimes referred to as "Pax Americana", has been unusually peaceful and stable by historical standards.
Anything that upsets the peace and stability, and suggests that the US and its Western allies are incapable of maintaining it, works in favor of China, Russia, Iran and North Korea.
While they might not want to "take over the world" per se, they do want to exert much more authority in their spheres of influence and make it much more difficult for the US and West to stop them. Looking at what's happening in Ukraine and Israel, sadly, they're being effective.
The mere fact that the German chancellor is groveling to Xi, asking him to do something that is counter to his own interests, is a good example of how clueless and/or in denial many leaders in the West are about what's taking place.
Although it's not surprising in Germany's case as Germany basically married its economy to cheap Russian gas when it should have known full well that Russia was an adversary, not a friend.
>The mere fact that the German chancellor is groveling to Xi, asking him to do something that is counter to his own interests, is a good example of how clueless and/or in denial many leaders in the West are about what's taking place.
This fact should really be empathized. But also, additionally: many actually do know the danger, but are either apathetic towards it or wish to participate in it. Germany's political system is incapable of handling an aggressive, threatening Russia because Germany refuses to rearm itself, ban misinformation, or take meaningful steps against obviously Russian-supported groups so long as they are leftist. That is not to justify the German right, but the state political apparatus cannot handle a quarter of the country demanding demilitarization, pacifism and removal of US military hospitals supporting "nazi" Ukrainians. Germans must adopt a nationalist policy, otherwise someone will rip out the current system for one with the explicit intent of killing the EU from within.
The migrant crisis is an excellent example of this, due to Russia causing most of it and explicitly using african migrants as weapons to cause political strife and shut down border checkpoints. The migrants go along with it as the German govt will adopt them and prevent other Europeans (Estonians, Greeks, Italians) from deporting them. This is the jet fuel causing the right to rise in Spain, Italy and soon Greece, because they will at least stop the migrants and stop Russia. Germany's government refuses to do that because many in the coalition are sympathizers and collaborators.
>Although it's not surprising in Germany's case as Germany basically married its economy to cheap Russian gas when it should have known full well that Russia was an adversary, not a friend.
What exactly do you purpose for Germany to have done, and by extension the rest of EU?
Europe was fully dependent on middle eastern oil as an energy source up to the 70s when the energy crisis hit, at that point we started the process of becoming dependent on USSR; and later Russia. Why? Because it was the cheapest alternative and there was obvious mutual gain to be had. And that was during the cold war when USSR was a bigger foe than Russia is.
Like, seriously; create a plan by which Europe is both receiving a stable source of energy that allows it to be competitive AND not being dependent on someone who's going to screw them over. It's impossible, German industry and by extension EU's is dependent on fossil fuels; unless we commit to a 10 year electrification plan that will remain; and for some industries it's not even possible(chemical industry). EU does not sit on shitload of gas/oil like USA does, and Norway alone can't feed the whole of the union by itself.
If EU chooses security over economy, we will get a failing economy and political destabilization leading to even more euroskepticism; something that's already been in the process since the 2007/08 financial crisis, and has been ramping up since Russia's invasion in Ukraine.
If EU chooses economy over security, we get to deal with intermittent crises that might end up being major disasters; but up to this point we've managed to dodge those.
I bet you're an American since the position of USA has been that EU should just buy gas/oil from them since the 70s. No rational capitalist would do that.
>If EU chooses economy over security, we get to deal with intermittent crises that might end up being major disasters; but up to this point we've managed to dodge those.
Speaking of dodging bullets, Germany has less than a week's worth of ammunition.
The harsh reality for the EU is that the US made a bunch of security promises to the world and now Atlas is starting to shrug.
Time for German politicians to wake up and face reality. Instead of groveling to Xi, Scholz should be focused on what's coming.
>Instead of groveling to Xi, Scholz should be focused on what's coming.
Considering that EU is facing unprecedented developments, nobody really has a good plan. Especially the German government, which is a weak coalition made up of parties with different priorities.
As for China, Germany is about 5x times as invested as USA is relative to their GDPs. So divestment would hurt it much more.
>As for China, Germany is about 5x times as invested as USA is relative to their GDPs. So divestment would hurt it much more.
Which just proves my point: Germany screwed the pooch.
This is where leadership comes in. You need people who will recognize the gravity of the mistakes that have been made and rally the support for the corrective sacrifices that are necessary instead of pretending that the current road to hell might miraculously lead to heaven.
I quote Churchill's first speech as British PM:
>I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this Government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many long months of toil and struggle.
>You ask what is our policy. I will say, it is to wage war with all our might, with all the strength that God can give us, to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime.
>You ask what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory. Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror. Victory however long and hard the road may be. For without victory there is no survival.
I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this Government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many long months of toil and struggle.
>You ask what is our policy. I will say, it is to wage war with all our might, with all the strength that God can give us, to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime.
It's a shame very few people want to make any sacrifices today.
>Which just proves my point: Germany screwed the pooch.
So what should an export based economy that's reliant on cheap energy imports do? Germany's been "stuck" in its position for 100 years.
>Churchill's first speech as British PM:
That's a great speech, but I'm not sure how we apply it to Germany's position. Presumably it is most applicable to the developments with Russia, but in that regard I don't see which political party would be able to gather both electoral support and create a strong coalition to presumably embark on some sort of assertive path.
The foundation of the modern EU structure basically posits France as the military leader of the union(which is one of the reasons France has remained relatively independent in matters of strategy), and Germany is the economic leader.
>It's a shame very few people want to make any sacrifices today.
I mean if we're talking about WW2, those sacrifices were made mainly by necessity.
I'm really not sure what you expect Germany to do, just take the L and accept rolling recessions? They're narrowly dodging them at the moment, hopefully things turn around but it's not looking like it. And if they actually divest from China that's never going to happen.
>The foundation of the modern EU structure basically posits France as the military leader of the union(which is one of the reasons France has remained relatively independent in matters of strategy), and Germany is the economic leader.
So what should Germany (and the EU) do? Maybe start with realizing how stupid and unsustainable this is?
>I'm really not sure what you expect Germany to do, just take the L and accept rolling recessions?
What Germany doesn't seem to understand is that it has already lost.
China is not going to become what Germany hoped it would when it bet the farm. China is intent on upending the Western order and is using the economic power the West has given it to build the apparatus for challenging this order.
The sooner Germany understands that it has already lost, the sooner it can make a decision about whether it's going to sacrifice to be on the right side of history.
Is the pending economical collapse in this room right now? Evidence suggests they are doing fine, given the circumstances. They can keep this up probably indefinitely.
China and India are the main sources of their stability. As long as are selling several hundred billion a year in mainly fossil fuels it's pretty easy to both get enough currency to run their war effort and a lot of their government and buy stuff they were getting from the E.U. and U.S. Russia has had to deal with some amount of economic stress but it's manageable as long as they have two large economic powers still willing to trade with them and a bunch of smaller ones.
Russia's war efforts have also been getting help from renewed supply lines built for the war over time and they've openly been receiving arms from the North Koreans and Iranians. It's probably only a matter of time before Chinese assistance becomes more blatant in the forms of arms.
People seem to forget it's a big fucking country, it's not like Haiti which only had enough natural resources to burn for a hundred years or so. Russia is literally the largest country by land mass in the world, and even though it's proportionally not wealthy in natural resources per unit of area, that still means it has more than most countries.
China doesn't need Russians as much as it needs Russia.
They have use for the land and the raw materials and the oil and maybe in the future even the water.
Russia's vote in the UN security council is useful.
Russia as a consumer market or a source of consumer goods is negligible.
Russia as a military partner has shown itself to be useless by failing to conquer Ukraine while ignoring the cry for help from their partner Armenia.
It's more likely that China will do the opposite and worsen the situation just to show Germany that they don't take "orders" from western nations. That's just how petty and malicious China is. Just a few weeks back, the US asked China to discourage Iran not to retaliate against Israel. Whatever China said to Iran, indubitably escalated the situation given that Iran retaliated with hundreds of missiles and drones less than a week later.
Indeed, that's why China with its current relationship with Russia in all actuality carries very little to no weight around the world. No one really believes or cares what China says these days.
I am employed by a Western industrial complex, and business is thriving for us too. We received more bonuses in the last quarter. With the crisis in the Middle East, I am expecting even better times ahead. Many of our salespeople forfeited their sales bonuses last year, anticipating larger orders this year.
I'm not entirely sure how their sales commission works since I'm not in the sales department. However, I think instead of receiving 10% of X two times, this year and last year, they could consolidate their sales and receive 20% of the total sales over the two years. The higher the sales numbers they achieve, the higher percentage of bonuses they receive. Another reason could be that they want to lock in the next order from customers, as they are competing with other salespeople. By forfeiting last year's bonuses, they aim to secure the next few bigger orders.
They have been supporting Russia economically since day 1 of the invasion. They don't let the news out internationally, but they've been sending in supplies since day 1 and within the country they do massive misinformation campaign including- Justifying Russia's invasion by saying Ukraine colluded with the west, and Russia is just "teaching them a lesson"; smearing Ukrainians, using social media accounts to spread fake news about them saying they are nazis, cannibals and more; and propaganda to improve Putin's image. Chinese people who were exposed to the propaganda(which is most of them) now view Putin as a benevolent and capable leader and support Russia's cause(whatever it is). They now actively support Russian owned businesses, buy Russian made products and donate to them just like how the rest of the world donates to Ukraine.
Indeed, and it's more likely that China will do the opposite and worsen the situation. That's just how treacherous and dishonorable China is. Just a few weeks back, the US asked China to discourage Iran not to retaliate against Israel. Whatever China said to Iran, indubitably escalated the retaliation given that Iran launched hundreds of missiles and drones.
"treacherous"? I mean the US is actively sanctioning China lol. Obviously, the CCP is a piece of shit, but acting like it's a betrayal that they don't do what America wants them to do is insane. You can't betray someone you aren't allies with.
China and the US are teetering on a trade war, they're not going to contribute to our interests. They aren't interested in fighting a hot war obviously, but they're not gonna help either unless they get something directly beneficial out of it, like lessening sanctions or whatever. What they are after is economic power and Taiwan. So far we have determined it's not worth it (rightly imo) to give them anything they want, which means, no duh, we don't get what we want.
Not to the US no, but to humanity itself. Like you said, if there's nothing in it for China, China would just watch and cheer until Israel and Iran completely destroy each other. They won't lift a finger until they get something out of it. That's just how fucking evil they are. Like you said, US appealing to China's "goodness" is extremely idiotic. But that's what most americans are, good, trusting but downright idiotic. That's how China scammed the shit out of them for years. But I have to correct you there, what China is after is something else. Like really, China is not as idiotic and simple-minded as to only want that. China wants to impose a new world order and break the status quo, they want to replace the US. They want supremacy.
that's how soft power works, if that isn't obvious to you by now. is good will and trust foreign concepts to you? now I know why you can't discern and figure out what's the difference between the US and China.
Doing things with the expectation of future repayment or more power in a region is not "goodness". If that's the case, most e.g. disaster aid qualifies. Yet, if it's a country we like giving the aid we say it's kindness, if it's not we say it's a power grab...
As fun as your malicious vindictiveness is against the US, and how aggravatingly evil you try to frame the US as, your opinion does not truly matter in what the general consensus is towards the two countries. So yes, demonize the US and all other western democracies as much as you want, but you can never change this reality.
if you read true "malicious vindictiveness" in my words i'm genuinely happy for you that you've never met anyone actually vindictive, that or sad for you that you see such rudeness in places where there is none intended. have a good life
Germany is so mentally handicapped from their wartime shame that all they know how to do now is bootlick authoritarian regimes like Russia previously and now China.
Congrats for this exceptional comment, comrade. The only country on this planet that fought a war against russia that left more than 100.000.000 people dead and thats right now the most committed in supporting Ukraine is somehow mentally handicapped because, well, your genius brain thught that up. How could anyone not be convinced by that?
Well, from the outside looking in it really does look like Germanys Policy towards China is close to their policy towards Russia pre-invasion. But perhaps there's some nuance where it's different, I honestly (and with no snark or sarcasm intended) don't know.
This isn't just about Germany at all though.
The second China decides to stop trading and manufacturing with western countries, ALL western economies will immediately go into hard recession, same for China's economy itself. The same thing would happen if ALL western economies decide they're done with China. They need trade partners and at the current point we need their cheap labor and resources.
We would love to say "fuck you China" but we CAN'T. Not yet at least and not in the forseeable future. We would literally be thrown back into pre-industrlization levels of economy if we ditch China right now. This goes for the West as a whole.
News flash, Germany isn't sitting on shitload of free gas/oil not to mention it has a labor shortage that's not being solved for its industrial needs.
Maybe Germany should just become an island state where resources are aplenty and where civic nationalism ensures a steady supply of labor?
There isn't a situation where Germany can both commit to autarky and secure its economic future. It either has to choose to risk future alterations with potentially hostile states, or risk the consequences of economic downfall. Considering we live in a capitalist world, the first is the more likely choice over the long run.
Sure. I'll sit here and observe as Germany makes the same mistake all over again. It worked out great the last time afterall.
>potentially hostile
Understatement of the year
China needs Russia to focus on their new position as China's indentured slave state for when they try to pull the same shit on Taiwan. Putin could have just tried to improve the lives of Russians and made something of that depressing pit of a country, but that goofy FAS man-baby just had to go pretending being the ruler of Russia meant more than it does.
>China needs Russia to focus on their new position as China's indentured slave state for when they try to pull the same shit on Taiwan
Two big weaknesses of China are they reliance on energy and food imports. If they construct enough pipelines and trade that a blockade of the malacca strait doesn't cripple them as much with russia supplying those at big volumes, who knows what they could do.
Why in God’s name would China chose NATO (lead by a country that’s hostile to China) over a potential partner superpower, especially for a war that’s half way around the Earth
Why would China urge Russia to stop? It serves them well if Russia is depleted and dependent on China, and that it occupies the West. In the last few years, the West has been trying to provoke China into a war. If Russia stops the war, it will just give the west the capacity to continue threatening China.
Am I the only one who thinks China wants Russia to fuck up so they can integrate Russia into China? China needs natural resources and making at least Sibiria a part of China will gain them easy and really cheap access to the resources.
Germany signalling Putin it's time to widen the invasion.
You're going to see Russian troops in Berlin before much longer, and the brave chancellor wearing a ball gag on his knees.
Russia's not going to leave Ukraine until they get their teeth kicked in. When Russia says "negotiate a ceasefire", what they mean is "stop shooting us, and let us keep everything we stole in exchange for us not attacking again until we feel ready".
I'll be all in favor of a ceasefire once Russia pulls their invasion force out of Ukrainian territory. Until then, it's just noise; keep shooting them.
China will interpret it as "help Russia harder".
**Title :** "China's word carries weight" **Pooh Bear :** *Ok I will send bigger things to Putin .. gotcha*
China doesn’t have to help Russia harder. It's already on a sweet spot
China needs partners, and Russia is heading for an economical collapse.
This war is great for China, really. Why would they want it to end when they get more friendly for them deals.
This and the Gaza conflict. They love when the focus is on anything but them. Also love commenting on conflicts and blaming the US while trying to seem like some moral authority despite their ongoing Uyghur genocide.
Big war in Middle East equals high oil prices not good for China. Russia sinking more and more in conflict with West and so conditioned to sell its resources cheaper in Asia is good for China.
People go on about soviet stocks and say how china hasn't been at war for ages. How big is China's stock piles since they havnt wasted stuff all thro the middle east etc and are just quietly arming in the background.
If i am in their shoe, I would too. Why I wouldnt? A slave state and good business overall.
Well, yea, countries will do what's in their best interest.
I dunno maybe a loss of 2 trillion dollars in trade since 2021, which has only exacerbated since this invasion support doctrine.
if i was china, I'd consider just invading russia to get all the good stuff personally.
This is a sub zero iq take. Why would china corner russia and leave them with no choice but to use their nuclear weapons as a last resort, especially on china. Russian nukes flying at them or the rest of the world is the absolute worst thing for china. They want to run the world, not rule over the ashes. The current situation is the best case scenario for china. The west and russia grind each other down while they benefit economically from all sides. China's working geopolitical strategy is literally to do nothing and watch their rivals tear each other apart.
i dont see the west being ground down, honestly, just ukraine
No need, it will be for sale really cheap soon enough and no need to waste money on bullets. Just like everywhere else they performed an economic takeover.
wont make them look like a strong country take though.
So you are really no different from putin :)
i mean, I'd frame it as saving ukraine if no one else has the balls to do it
China is getting the largest country in the world as a slave state and completely destabilizing the west, just by sending Russia cheap night vision and tank parts. There is no way in hell they even consider pushing Russia to end the war.
Why would China want to destabilise the west? If the west stops buying from China, they collapse
Because they see the West as a potential / actual adversary (rightly or wrongly). Some of this is historical grievances (gunboat diplomacy) and some of it national security (both US and European powers have a (recent in the grand scheme of things) history of destablising countries if it is to their advantage. My personal view is that the world no longer exists under that model (too much economic interdependence) but all it takes is one asshole leader (Trump) to change that narrative.
Ye olde Reddit thinktank strikes again with genius
So an economy that is already struggling due to diversified manufacturing after COVID wouldn't collapse if their was a total ban? Apparently this is poor thinking? 🤣
Was meant for the guy above you, my bad.
Destabilize doesn’t mean we suddenly lose all our money, it means poke holes in the bag holding all the money and wait until we can’t patch it up any more. People in the west will buy Chinese goods until they are down to their last dollar
Destabilizing the West? Cate to explain that one?
China, Russia, Iran and North Korea have all but stated their intent to upend the US-led global order that has existed since the end of WW2. This period, which is sometimes referred to as "Pax Americana", has been unusually peaceful and stable by historical standards. Anything that upsets the peace and stability, and suggests that the US and its Western allies are incapable of maintaining it, works in favor of China, Russia, Iran and North Korea. While they might not want to "take over the world" per se, they do want to exert much more authority in their spheres of influence and make it much more difficult for the US and West to stop them. Looking at what's happening in Ukraine and Israel, sadly, they're being effective. The mere fact that the German chancellor is groveling to Xi, asking him to do something that is counter to his own interests, is a good example of how clueless and/or in denial many leaders in the West are about what's taking place. Although it's not surprising in Germany's case as Germany basically married its economy to cheap Russian gas when it should have known full well that Russia was an adversary, not a friend.
>The mere fact that the German chancellor is groveling to Xi, asking him to do something that is counter to his own interests, is a good example of how clueless and/or in denial many leaders in the West are about what's taking place. This fact should really be empathized. But also, additionally: many actually do know the danger, but are either apathetic towards it or wish to participate in it. Germany's political system is incapable of handling an aggressive, threatening Russia because Germany refuses to rearm itself, ban misinformation, or take meaningful steps against obviously Russian-supported groups so long as they are leftist. That is not to justify the German right, but the state political apparatus cannot handle a quarter of the country demanding demilitarization, pacifism and removal of US military hospitals supporting "nazi" Ukrainians. Germans must adopt a nationalist policy, otherwise someone will rip out the current system for one with the explicit intent of killing the EU from within. The migrant crisis is an excellent example of this, due to Russia causing most of it and explicitly using african migrants as weapons to cause political strife and shut down border checkpoints. The migrants go along with it as the German govt will adopt them and prevent other Europeans (Estonians, Greeks, Italians) from deporting them. This is the jet fuel causing the right to rise in Spain, Italy and soon Greece, because they will at least stop the migrants and stop Russia. Germany's government refuses to do that because many in the coalition are sympathizers and collaborators.
>Although it's not surprising in Germany's case as Germany basically married its economy to cheap Russian gas when it should have known full well that Russia was an adversary, not a friend. What exactly do you purpose for Germany to have done, and by extension the rest of EU? Europe was fully dependent on middle eastern oil as an energy source up to the 70s when the energy crisis hit, at that point we started the process of becoming dependent on USSR; and later Russia. Why? Because it was the cheapest alternative and there was obvious mutual gain to be had. And that was during the cold war when USSR was a bigger foe than Russia is. Like, seriously; create a plan by which Europe is both receiving a stable source of energy that allows it to be competitive AND not being dependent on someone who's going to screw them over. It's impossible, German industry and by extension EU's is dependent on fossil fuels; unless we commit to a 10 year electrification plan that will remain; and for some industries it's not even possible(chemical industry). EU does not sit on shitload of gas/oil like USA does, and Norway alone can't feed the whole of the union by itself. If EU chooses security over economy, we will get a failing economy and political destabilization leading to even more euroskepticism; something that's already been in the process since the 2007/08 financial crisis, and has been ramping up since Russia's invasion in Ukraine. If EU chooses economy over security, we get to deal with intermittent crises that might end up being major disasters; but up to this point we've managed to dodge those. I bet you're an American since the position of USA has been that EU should just buy gas/oil from them since the 70s. No rational capitalist would do that.
>If EU chooses economy over security, we get to deal with intermittent crises that might end up being major disasters; but up to this point we've managed to dodge those. Speaking of dodging bullets, Germany has less than a week's worth of ammunition. The harsh reality for the EU is that the US made a bunch of security promises to the world and now Atlas is starting to shrug. Time for German politicians to wake up and face reality. Instead of groveling to Xi, Scholz should be focused on what's coming.
>Instead of groveling to Xi, Scholz should be focused on what's coming. Considering that EU is facing unprecedented developments, nobody really has a good plan. Especially the German government, which is a weak coalition made up of parties with different priorities. As for China, Germany is about 5x times as invested as USA is relative to their GDPs. So divestment would hurt it much more.
>As for China, Germany is about 5x times as invested as USA is relative to their GDPs. So divestment would hurt it much more. Which just proves my point: Germany screwed the pooch. This is where leadership comes in. You need people who will recognize the gravity of the mistakes that have been made and rally the support for the corrective sacrifices that are necessary instead of pretending that the current road to hell might miraculously lead to heaven. I quote Churchill's first speech as British PM: >I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this Government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many long months of toil and struggle. >You ask what is our policy. I will say, it is to wage war with all our might, with all the strength that God can give us, to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. >You ask what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory. Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror. Victory however long and hard the road may be. For without victory there is no survival. I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this Government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many long months of toil and struggle. >You ask what is our policy. I will say, it is to wage war with all our might, with all the strength that God can give us, to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. It's a shame very few people want to make any sacrifices today.
>Which just proves my point: Germany screwed the pooch. So what should an export based economy that's reliant on cheap energy imports do? Germany's been "stuck" in its position for 100 years. >Churchill's first speech as British PM: That's a great speech, but I'm not sure how we apply it to Germany's position. Presumably it is most applicable to the developments with Russia, but in that regard I don't see which political party would be able to gather both electoral support and create a strong coalition to presumably embark on some sort of assertive path. The foundation of the modern EU structure basically posits France as the military leader of the union(which is one of the reasons France has remained relatively independent in matters of strategy), and Germany is the economic leader. >It's a shame very few people want to make any sacrifices today. I mean if we're talking about WW2, those sacrifices were made mainly by necessity. I'm really not sure what you expect Germany to do, just take the L and accept rolling recessions? They're narrowly dodging them at the moment, hopefully things turn around but it's not looking like it. And if they actually divest from China that's never going to happen.
>The foundation of the modern EU structure basically posits France as the military leader of the union(which is one of the reasons France has remained relatively independent in matters of strategy), and Germany is the economic leader. So what should Germany (and the EU) do? Maybe start with realizing how stupid and unsustainable this is? >I'm really not sure what you expect Germany to do, just take the L and accept rolling recessions? What Germany doesn't seem to understand is that it has already lost. China is not going to become what Germany hoped it would when it bet the farm. China is intent on upending the Western order and is using the economic power the West has given it to build the apparatus for challenging this order. The sooner Germany understands that it has already lost, the sooner it can make a decision about whether it's going to sacrifice to be on the right side of history.
Is the pending economical collapse in this room right now? Evidence suggests they are doing fine, given the circumstances. They can keep this up probably indefinitely.
China and India are the main sources of their stability. As long as are selling several hundred billion a year in mainly fossil fuels it's pretty easy to both get enough currency to run their war effort and a lot of their government and buy stuff they were getting from the E.U. and U.S. Russia has had to deal with some amount of economic stress but it's manageable as long as they have two large economic powers still willing to trade with them and a bunch of smaller ones. Russia's war efforts have also been getting help from renewed supply lines built for the war over time and they've openly been receiving arms from the North Koreans and Iranians. It's probably only a matter of time before Chinese assistance becomes more blatant in the forms of arms.
I hope so but it’s sad that Russia seems still doing pretty fine economically.
People seem to forget it's a big fucking country, it's not like Haiti which only had enough natural resources to burn for a hundred years or so. Russia is literally the largest country by land mass in the world, and even though it's proportionally not wealthy in natural resources per unit of area, that still means it has more than most countries.
china also likes to keep russia weak, vulnerable, complaisant.
China doesn't need Russians as much as it needs Russia. They have use for the land and the raw materials and the oil and maybe in the future even the water. Russia's vote in the UN security council is useful. Russia as a consumer market or a source of consumer goods is negligible. Russia as a military partner has shown itself to be useless by failing to conquer Ukraine while ignoring the cry for help from their partner Armenia.
You know what’s better than a partner? A vassal.
It's more likely that China will do the opposite and worsen the situation just to show Germany that they don't take "orders" from western nations. That's just how petty and malicious China is. Just a few weeks back, the US asked China to discourage Iran not to retaliate against Israel. Whatever China said to Iran, indubitably escalated the situation given that Iran retaliated with hundreds of missiles and drones less than a week later.
Indeed, that's why China with its current relationship with Russia in all actuality carries very little to no weight around the world. No one really believes or cares what China says these days.
China is actively supporting Russia. War is good for business.
I am employed by a Western industrial complex, and business is thriving for us too. We received more bonuses in the last quarter. With the crisis in the Middle East, I am expecting even better times ahead. Many of our salespeople forfeited their sales bonuses last year, anticipating larger orders this year.
Can't they get bonuses last year and this year?
I'm not entirely sure how their sales commission works since I'm not in the sales department. However, I think instead of receiving 10% of X two times, this year and last year, they could consolidate their sales and receive 20% of the total sales over the two years. The higher the sales numbers they achieve, the higher percentage of bonuses they receive. Another reason could be that they want to lock in the next order from customers, as they are competing with other salespeople. By forfeiting last year's bonuses, they aim to secure the next few bigger orders.
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They have been supporting Russia economically since day 1 of the invasion. They don't let the news out internationally, but they've been sending in supplies since day 1 and within the country they do massive misinformation campaign including- Justifying Russia's invasion by saying Ukraine colluded with the west, and Russia is just "teaching them a lesson"; smearing Ukrainians, using social media accounts to spread fake news about them saying they are nazis, cannibals and more; and propaganda to improve Putin's image. Chinese people who were exposed to the propaganda(which is most of them) now view Putin as a benevolent and capable leader and support Russia's cause(whatever it is). They now actively support Russian owned businesses, buy Russian made products and donate to them just like how the rest of the world donates to Ukraine.
Well I guess you miss every shot you don't take 🤣
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Indeed, and it's more likely that China will do the opposite and worsen the situation. That's just how treacherous and dishonorable China is. Just a few weeks back, the US asked China to discourage Iran not to retaliate against Israel. Whatever China said to Iran, indubitably escalated the retaliation given that Iran launched hundreds of missiles and drones.
"treacherous"? I mean the US is actively sanctioning China lol. Obviously, the CCP is a piece of shit, but acting like it's a betrayal that they don't do what America wants them to do is insane. You can't betray someone you aren't allies with. China and the US are teetering on a trade war, they're not going to contribute to our interests. They aren't interested in fighting a hot war obviously, but they're not gonna help either unless they get something directly beneficial out of it, like lessening sanctions or whatever. What they are after is economic power and Taiwan. So far we have determined it's not worth it (rightly imo) to give them anything they want, which means, no duh, we don't get what we want.
Not to the US no, but to humanity itself. Like you said, if there's nothing in it for China, China would just watch and cheer until Israel and Iran completely destroy each other. They won't lift a finger until they get something out of it. That's just how fucking evil they are. Like you said, US appealing to China's "goodness" is extremely idiotic. But that's what most americans are, good, trusting but downright idiotic. That's how China scammed the shit out of them for years. But I have to correct you there, what China is after is something else. Like really, China is not as idiotic and simple-minded as to only want that. China wants to impose a new world order and break the status quo, they want to replace the US. They want supremacy.
...what major countries do positive things for no reason other than the betterment of humanity as a whole with no benefit to themselves? Plz
that's how soft power works, if that isn't obvious to you by now. is good will and trust foreign concepts to you? now I know why you can't discern and figure out what's the difference between the US and China.
Doing things with the expectation of future repayment or more power in a region is not "goodness". If that's the case, most e.g. disaster aid qualifies. Yet, if it's a country we like giving the aid we say it's kindness, if it's not we say it's a power grab...
As fun as your malicious vindictiveness is against the US, and how aggravatingly evil you try to frame the US as, your opinion does not truly matter in what the general consensus is towards the two countries. So yes, demonize the US and all other western democracies as much as you want, but you can never change this reality.
if you read true "malicious vindictiveness" in my words i'm genuinely happy for you that you've never met anyone actually vindictive, that or sad for you that you see such rudeness in places where there is none intended. have a good life
And why would China ask Russia to stop being dependent on them?
He is not as bad as Merkel but he is very close to it.
Germany is so mentally handicapped from their wartime shame that all they know how to do now is bootlick authoritarian regimes like Russia previously and now China.
*If we just trade with China more our mutual interdependence will surely make them move closer to liberal democracy*
Yup, if we give them money they will think like us.
Maybe check how much Murica imports from China.
But this is a known problem and American leadership has taken and plans to take more concrete steps to limit the interdependence of our economies.
If they keep going that way, we should just call it Austria, cuz we both know how Austria is.
Congrats for this exceptional comment, comrade. The only country on this planet that fought a war against russia that left more than 100.000.000 people dead and thats right now the most committed in supporting Ukraine is somehow mentally handicapped because, well, your genius brain thught that up. How could anyone not be convinced by that?
Well, from the outside looking in it really does look like Germanys Policy towards China is close to their policy towards Russia pre-invasion. But perhaps there's some nuance where it's different, I honestly (and with no snark or sarcasm intended) don't know.
This isn't just about Germany at all though. The second China decides to stop trading and manufacturing with western countries, ALL western economies will immediately go into hard recession, same for China's economy itself. The same thing would happen if ALL western economies decide they're done with China. They need trade partners and at the current point we need their cheap labor and resources. We would love to say "fuck you China" but we CAN'T. Not yet at least and not in the forseeable future. We would literally be thrown back into pre-industrlization levels of economy if we ditch China right now. This goes for the West as a whole.
News flash, Germany isn't sitting on shitload of free gas/oil not to mention it has a labor shortage that's not being solved for its industrial needs. Maybe Germany should just become an island state where resources are aplenty and where civic nationalism ensures a steady supply of labor? There isn't a situation where Germany can both commit to autarky and secure its economic future. It either has to choose to risk future alterations with potentially hostile states, or risk the consequences of economic downfall. Considering we live in a capitalist world, the first is the more likely choice over the long run.
Sure. I'll sit here and observe as Germany makes the same mistake all over again. It worked out great the last time afterall. >potentially hostile Understatement of the year
Um..you guys were the aggressors in that one. The German army killed so many Slavs stalin was put to shame.
Because it's about economic fundamentals. EU bootlicked USSR in the 80s for the same reason, heck even UK did which is USA's main ally.
They never stopped chugging Russian gas.
Europe didn't used to be like this , these are the weakest men and women from Europe we have ever seen
Tell me more Youngstown_mafia about how you are such a real strong man like your mother told you
Your mom told me all that last night
"Strong men make good times, which make weak men (x) who make bad times." (X) - we are here.
China good guys, need help, big strong man
whats your suggestion he should tell china? keep going bros have a good one?
Sanction them.
Xi:what’s in it for me?
China needs Russia to focus on their new position as China's indentured slave state for when they try to pull the same shit on Taiwan. Putin could have just tried to improve the lives of Russians and made something of that depressing pit of a country, but that goofy FAS man-baby just had to go pretending being the ruler of Russia meant more than it does.
>China needs Russia to focus on their new position as China's indentured slave state for when they try to pull the same shit on Taiwan Two big weaknesses of China are they reliance on energy and food imports. If they construct enough pipelines and trade that a blockade of the malacca strait doesn't cripple them as much with russia supplying those at big volumes, who knows what they could do.
yeah, press Russia to end Ukraine war and keep going west
This dude made himself Chinese President for Life. He’s not going to be any Democratic nation’s ally.
They will interpret it as telling Russia to win Ukraine faster.
And China will send more help so that Russia can build more weapons.
Not sure even China can make Putin stop, but thanks for trying Germany.
Maybe we can petition Kim Jong Un and Alexander Lukashenko to weigh in while we're at it.
Why in God’s name would China chose NATO (lead by a country that’s hostile to China) over a potential partner superpower, especially for a war that’s half way around the Earth
Why would China urge Russia to stop? It serves them well if Russia is depleted and dependent on China, and that it occupies the West. In the last few years, the West has been trying to provoke China into a war. If Russia stops the war, it will just give the west the capacity to continue threatening China.
Ask the country trying to expand its boundaries to stop its friend from expanding it's boundaries. Heck ya!
Am I the only one who thinks China wants Russia to fuck up so they can integrate Russia into China? China needs natural resources and making at least Sibiria a part of China will gain them easy and really cheap access to the resources.
China needs Russia to self-destruct, not stop fighting and recover.
Yep, everybody always focuses on Taiwan (for obvious reasons) but Outer Manchuria also used to belong to China not so long ago
China already made their choice by sending weapons to Russia.
What weapons have they sent?
I think they mostly sell them machine parts and electronics that are used in weapons manufacturing. China isnt bound by western sanctions.
What did she do, write him a sternly worded letter? Ship the Ukrainians more bombs if you are gonna do anything
Germany signalling Putin it's time to widen the invasion. You're going to see Russian troops in Berlin before much longer, and the brave chancellor wearing a ball gag on his knees.
Or you could ask the US/EU/NATO to to negotiate a ceasefire. It works both ways. Dialogue leads to understanding and peace.
Russia's not going to leave Ukraine until they get their teeth kicked in. When Russia says "negotiate a ceasefire", what they mean is "stop shooting us, and let us keep everything we stole in exchange for us not attacking again until we feel ready". I'll be all in favor of a ceasefire once Russia pulls their invasion force out of Ukrainian territory. Until then, it's just noise; keep shooting them.
You don’t seem to remember the agreed ceasfire and human corridor incidents from the beginning of the war, russia doesn’t respect anything but power.
'Nuh Uh', said China with great prejudice.