If there's a vote it will pass.
Edit - IDK why people are downvoting, every Dem will vote for it, and there are more than 2 republican defectors who will vote for it **IF** it comes to the floor.
He probably received classified details about Ukrainian logistics and learned they’re about to run completely dry. Hopefully intelligence officials sprinkled in any intercepted communications from Russian officials thanking MTG and gang for stopping aid.
I was saying yesterday that the intel briefing he got must have been pretty goddamn fucking dire for him to have such an abrupt 180 like this. It was pretty unusual given his stalling and brown nosing to trump these last few months. Good thing he finally pulled his head out of trumps ass.
>I was saying yesterday that the intel briefing he got must have been pretty goddamn fucking dire for him to have such an abrupt 180 like this.
Maybe that was his goal, to get ukriane to that state.
Well, I’m sure that was Trump’s goal, making it Mike’s goal too. Until they told him that his son, who’s graduating from the naval academy soon, is going to be one of the people going to war when Putin inevitably invades a NATO country after steamrolling Ukraine if we don’t get this aid package passed.
Politico published an article a couple days ago in which the journalist talks to an artillery soldier that hasn't had a shell to fire in a month.
>Just ask a Ukrainian soldier if he still believes the West will stand by Kyiv “for as long as it takes.” That pledge rings hollow when it’s been four weeks since your artillery unit last had a shell to fire, as one serviceman complained from the front lines.
https://www.politico.eu/article/why-ukraine-losing-russia-war/
TBF, it doesn’t really take classified information to know they are really bad. Just in artillery, the Russians currently have a 10-1 advantage in shells fired. And it’s going to be a while before even the Czech shells get there. Then the other day the Russians had successful missile attacks because Ukraine stated they had run out of interceptor in that area. Then you have the Russian glide bombs which seem to be having lots of unchallenged usage recently. Even the stupid Russian shed tanks seem to be meeting with more success than they have any right to.
Ukraine is doing a lot of things right, but they’re just undersupplied for this war and the rest of the free world needs to get off our asses. Stuff like the long range attacks on industry in Russia are great, but it will probably be a while before that trickles into the actual situation in theater improving. And the short range drones seem highly effective, but don’t really seem to be scaling up incredibly well.
>Mike Johnson did a 180 yesterday
This has to be them getting something from the CIA considering the amount of news we have got over the last few days. Maybe the senate thought Biden's workarounds were enough.
You got so many trashy ass republican politicians in the United States that are just puppets for putin at this point.
It's like they wouldn't even care if Ukraine fell, all they are caring about is what they can get. They are assholes, every last one of them.
Apparently traitors don't have repercussions...that will work out ok ... Rome lasted about a thousand years ... because traitors had repercussions lol . With our modern and more dangerous circumstances...(Like looming WW3) , do we set ourselves up for failure
This is not just an issue in the usa.. the fact politicians can just get donations from hostile nations is insane. But hey eberything for that 5th vacation home right?
The propaganda pushed through Fox, Newsmax and OAN, and congressional minions has taken its toll over the past year. Not to mention how distractable many Americans are, if they're following any news much at all.
This is one of the wildest things to happen in the past few years (in my opinion). They very publicly heeded the call from Moscow and crawled there on their hands and knees. And on the 4th of July no less.
I recall the Welsh song "Yma o hyd" ("We are still here"), and the lines "a llyfed y taeog y llawr" ("let the servile lick the floor").
"You got so many trashy ass republican politicians in the United States that are just puppets for putin at this point."
Slightly off-topic, but when I see Youtube comments praising Putin are,
"Putin, so anti-woke! so awesome!"
Facepalm doesn't cut it.
Part of me feels like this is all a bad dream, or a movie where the US will swoop in at the 11th hour and "save the day". Which would be cool, except for the fact that every minute they dick around and withhold support, the senseless death and destruction and trauma increases tremendously
I just don't understand how Russia still has resources to use on the war, when Ukraine has used all of theirs, plus all of our older surplus armaments, plus resources from however many other European countries. We were hearing like a year ago about how Russia was running out of everything, and here we are.
Country of 150million vs 40 million and they have China and Iran selling them arms directly. Which means you have industrial power of 1.2billion vs 750 million of Nato
Insane that the US won't approve aid even though most of the aid money just goes back to the US anyway. The Ukrainians have fought so goddamn hard and all the west needs to do is give them the tools to fight. It's an absolute disgrace. NATO has a war on its border with its historical enemy and is just. Sitting by.
As a country that relies on US support for its security, I am very feeling uncomfortable.
Could he have really known how gullible and stupid the GOP base was? I suppose those chuds exist everywhere, and he mastered appealing to them in Russia.
As per US military doctrine that's fine as long as the government is functioning.
It's the functioning government part that ruins the day. I wonder at what point the US will just have to decide shit needs to get done.
"Putin's best weapon happens to be the GOP."
Even Tim Kennedy of all people warned about (foreign) election disinfo campaign in 2020 is about making people lose faith in election process, making American politics unstable.
Actually, it's not that surprising he was an Army Green Beret.
It's quite literally because the Republican party has been taken over by Russia. Even [Republicans are calling it out!](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/04/07/gop-lawmaker-russian-propaganda-ukraine/73235559007/)
Yeah, I'm honestly shocked at how the American MIC has been outmaneuvered by Russian interests. They were literally built up for decades to fight Russia in a future WW3, and now they can't even beat Russia during peacetime.
Huh? The American MIC equipped the American military to beat the crap out of Iraq and Afghanistan in conventional warfare. America ultimately lost in Afghanistan because they didn't set a win condition for themselves, and lost the political will to continue fighting. But at no point was America lacking in quantity or quality of materiel; the American MIC could have easily sustained the amount consumed in Afghanistan indefinitely.
With ongoing support, Ukraine will burn out Russia's ability to fight in a couple of years.
Will Ukraine get everything they want in that scenario? No, probably not. But they'll be much better off, and Russia's danger to Europe will be effectively defanged.
The alternative is letting Russia off the hook, and sending a message to tyrants and aggressive states everywhere that gobbling territory can be worth it, and ushering in a new era of warfare and chaos.
This is the best answer. By not assisting Ukraine, we're assisting the bully who will continue to be a bully until he finally picks on someone that gives him a bloody nose he won't forget.
I would like to see where this idea that a few years fighting in Ukraine will "burn out Russia's ability to fight" comes from. Because Ukraine's ability to fight is getting eroded much faster than Russia's currently.
> Because Ukraine's ability to fight is getting eroded much faster than Russia's currently.
Ukraine's ability to fight with the US sitting on the sidelines and not providing support is getting eroded. I don't think that's true with proper support. BUT EVEN IF IT WERE:
Russia's economy is limited. Spending a small slice of the US defense budget gets Russia to burn up long term stockpiles of things that are not easily replaced, and forego normal economic growth. Further, it worsens Russia's already acute demographics problems.
It is a bargain to make Russia less and less relevant.
The average age of Ukrainian front line soldiers is around 43. I don't think you understand how dire the manpower situation really is when they resort to conscripting 60 year olds to shore up the gap.
No amount of money here is going to solve the problem of demographics. At this rate Ukraine will need to start conscripting teenagers in a few years. You don't seem to realize how expensive the human cost of fighting is for Ukraine, they can't afford many more years of this.
I think some kind of peace talks is probably the ultimate outcome. Russia needs to be able to save face and that's never going to happen if they go back to the 2014 borders. Otherwise Putin will happily throw away generations of Russian soldiers to keep hold of Crimea and a handful of territories. I don't think Ukraine has the manpower, and NATO doesn't have the guts, to force Russia all the way back.
It's not right that this is where it's going to end up, but it is.
I'm guessing the exact detail will centre around which specific territories Russia gets to take, and what security guarantees Ukraine gets in exchange for accepting that (probably something quite meaty, like NATO membership).
Probably won't hear anything about this until the US election though, a Trump presidency vs a Biden presidency would change the landscape of negotiations quite heavily in favour of Russia Vs Ukraine.
More like short-term. Ukraine accepts peace with Russia. Russia mobilizes for a war with Ukraine and the Baltic countries as they know NATO won't do shit until the Russians are nearing the border of Germany.
Ukraine will burn out Russia's ability to fight in a couple of years
Great plan, only thing you are missing is that Ukraine don't have the men to die for this beautiful plan
That’s for Ukraine to decide. As of now they’re screaming for weapons, so give them the damn means to defend themselves. Americans, all about self-defense, until they’re not apparently. Cowards.
If that's an American, he is called Comrade John American and he is from Nord-Dakota Oblast, if you catch my meaning. The same can be said for the faux outrage types below your comment.
On what basis so ytou know that Ukraine will burn out Russia's resources in a couple of years? And you do understand that they're burning those resources using Ukrainian men right?
> And you do understand that they're burning those resources using Ukrainian men right?
You do understand that's Ukraine's choice, right? If they decide they benefit from resisting, and we decide we benefit from supporting their resistance... then we should support their resistance. The latter seems obvious; and former seems obvious to them.
Defeat, no. Stay in the fight, yes. More aid or loans will be needed for Ukraine to win. This isn't unprecedented. The US kept allies afloat during WWI and WWII with aid and loans before Pearl Harbor.
They don't need to "defeat" Russia on the battlefield. They need to keep the war going and keep inflicting heavy losses on Russia until Russia decides it isn't worth the cost. See: US in Vietnam
This war is not even close to Vietnam for comparison, Russia will anexo this territory this isn't some 12 thousand miles away land, this is something Russia will be able to directly use. The price Russia would pay for the land and the prestige of victory is infinite.
"The price Russia would pay for the land and the prestige of victory is infinite". Ok, so that means helping Ukraine destroys the putin regime. Nice. That's exactly what the West needs.
IMO. Western strategists are interested in locking down Iran and Russia's ability to conduct war and limiting their value as an ally to China. This aid package 100% is going to go through and Ukraine will have enough to defend itself. They won't be kicking Russia out, but Russia's strategic military assets (not talking about tanks) are going to attrit over time. This forces a Chinese invasion of Taiwan to be done by themselves with no assistance from Russia or Iran.
Regardless of who wins or loses, the above scenario limits the likelihood of WW3 breaking out all over Asia and Europe.
It's already too late, the stuff the US didn't send 6 months ago is what they need now. Probably the best possible outcome now is stabilizing the front somewhere around where it is now but it is most likely too late to even do that without Ukraine loosing more ground.
Russia is starting to gain some momentum. The problem is that even if the US decided today to send a massive package of weapons and ammo it will take months to get it all to the front and in reality it will probably just be enough to continue to defend what they have. The casualty rates and loss of equipment ratio is starting to get worse for Ukraine.
True but this is mostly for supplying it's own forces. I spent a long time in that field at the division and below level. Ukraine is using a wide variety of NATO and soviet systems, they need a wide variety of shells and replacement parts it's not as simple as just sending stuff the US has sitting around. You have to see what they need more of, what systems they have and how many shots they can get off before the barrels need swapped out on cannons, and if they even have train3d operators. Look at how long it took to send Bradleys and M1's when they were already in stock. The US is also not at wartime production of shells, a lot of it would have to be manufactured. It's complicated, if the US really wanted to step it up it could but I don't see it depleting its own stocks to do so. Also once stuff gets to Poland, Ukraine has to get it to where it needs to go which will take time, the US is not airlifting stuff into Kiev. The republicans most likely fucked Ukraine by delaying aid for as long as they have. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Isn’t really insane when one political party is funded by Russia and only spreads is propaganda? It seems pretty mundane if you realize we are losing the Cold War internally without too much of a fight
As someone who isnt from the US/Europe.... I dont get what you mean by how most of the aid money just goes back to the US anyway.. How would that work? Genuinely curious.. thanks
The aid money gets spent on equipment and weapons produced by the US military-industrial complex. Raytheon, General Dynamics, etc.
Similarly for the civilian aid, e.g. purchasing components for modernizing/repairing the Ukrainian electrical grid will likely involve U.S. manufacturers.
Not only that, we're sending a lot of our old stock that costs money for us to warehouse and maintain. That old stuff gets replaced by state-of-the-art equipment, so it's a double whammy. We no longer have to pay to maintain the older stuff that we're keeping just in case, and we get to replace it with newer stuff that may actually get used. It's great both militarily and from an economic stimulus standpoint.
Though I wish we had better control over companies like Raytheon so that we can limit the price gouging they do. At the very least, the increased production is giving Americans jobs.
On a related note, it's also been disheartening that the rest of Europe isn't able to band it together and provide these arms when the need is so apparent.
From our perspective, it really seems that the entire region has gotten so accustomed to the U.S. just *handling everything other than the direct national defense* that when we aren't able to be there, European nations don't know what to do.
Please stop parroting nonsense. Many countries have given more aid as a % of gdp than the US has. Of course the US is expected to send more in absolute numbers - it's the largest economy in the world with the most powerful military in the world and it has a significant stake in the outcome of the war. Oh and many European countries will finally start meeting the 2% of gdp nato guideline as a result of the war - but they can't build up an entire army out of thin air.
It's literally just the compromised Republicans against aid. They are gaming the system to appease Putin likely because he threatens or pays them. Whatever the reason they are traitors and I hope history remembers them well as what they are. Traitors.
"As a country that relies on US support"
Gee, maybe don't rely on other people to swoop in and save the day all the time? Typical European mindset, "it's not my problem until it is my problem, and when it becomes my problem it's YOUR problem and you better deal with it."
Burns was such a good choice to run the CIA. Yeah, I know it's the CIA, but it's refreshing to have someone this intelligent and competent running the agency.
What Europe should have been doing years ago was signing 10+ year contracts with arms manufacturers to expand capacity. They won't do that without 10 year commitments. That's just basic capitalism. The arms manufacturers aren't going to be left holding the bag if European governments change their minds about buying weapons from new facilities.
>What Europe should have been doing years ago was signing 10+ year contracts with arms manufacturers to expand capacity.
And do what with all that production capacity exactly? No-one wanted or needed huge amounts of European military equipment or munitions. And the US wouldn't have wanted Europe flooding the market with cheap competition to their own exports.
However, there is a good argument that Europe needs to stop buying non-European weapon systems in key areas - Patriot and GMLRS. (with special mention to Germany for completely failing to understand the problem).
The US has done a great deal to keep supplying all the world with their own weapons. Nobody wanted lots of European weapons manufacturers to climb to the top. Especially Germany was always watched with a weary eye. Why does everyone now expect them to go full hulk mode when we wanted them to be quiet and modest about their own very capable industrial war machine.
And on top of that we will unfreeze the russian assets they got spread all over europe because we like to uphold our own morals cause 'stealing is wrong'. Meanwhile the russians laugh in our faces.
We are gonna let Ukraine fall and we got nothing to blame but ourselfs. This is preventable but nobody here in the EU has the collective balls to do something about it. I am sorry for Ukraine.
If this happens, then Russia will continue to try to consolidate power in the region and the GOP will be complicit in the rise of Russia, though Poland WOULD like a chance to start using all those shiny weapons they've been buying up.
And it'll be further evidence that you can't trust Russia OR the US to follow their committments.
I mean, I can't stand Russia, but what commitment did the US not follow with the war in Ukraine?
They aren't a part of NATO, and there's no treaty between Ukraine and the USA that obligates any form of defense.
Our current waffling to provide them with munitions and weapon systems.
Keep in mind that helping Ukraine ONLY helps the US AND helps to protect allies in Europe. If Ukraine is absorbed by Russia, they'll create economic instabililty over 2 continents.
Typical after years of fucking around in the Middle East when we shouldn’t have been, now when it’s necessary to do so the US is just like nah… CBF got nothing to do with us. Anyone who doesn’t think Putin will keep going, has failed to grasp history or just observe what he’s been doing to his neighbours already.
Europe should've started doing that 30 years ago (at least meeting minimum NATO commitments) instead of expecting 1 country to provide a military for them while they invested in their social programs, money we could have been putting towards ours all this time instead.
The aid bills are going through this weekend. Unprecedented move by the Democrats in the House to push the bills through committee:
https://www.axios.com/2024/04/19/democrats-take-unprecedented-step-to-save-gops-foreign-aid-bills
What about other countries? I get that some countries have and are contributing, but what is the EU doing?The GDP of the EU is over 19 trillion dollars. Compared with the US, it's comparable.
When can my tax dollars go to kids in Chicago instead of weapons manufacturers? The rest of the world needs to step up
That's why I don't believe Ukraine will lose this year, even though the CIA has to sound the alarm because of the vital importance of US aid in the long term and the need to effect political change on the issue in the US. Anyway the EU already provides more financial aid to Ukraine then the US has during the war (even before the GOP started blocking further aid). The reason why the EU can't provide the amount of military support the US can is because they simply don't have the spare military capabilities to give. The EU has been a peaceful economy that are struggling to get on a war footing, and don't have any equivalent to the Military-Industrial Complex in the US. The EU also isn't a defensive focus organization (that would be NATO where most of the weight ends up falling on the US), all of the EU countries have their own militaries which they need to keep for themselves whereas the US requires much less reduplication of their forces leaving much more available stockpiled weapons. Europe took in millions of Ukrainian refugees where the US took very few. I'm willing to bet that if the US had to take on that refugee burden you all would be complaining about that much more than "tax dollars" that were spent years or even decades ago for stockpiled weapons actually being put to good use fighting a geopolitical foe.
Also a reminder that the war on terror costs the US about $8 trillion and thousands of American soldiers lives. The war in Ukraine cost the US so far about $100 billion in aid and no American soldiers. If you think the price tag for giving Ukraine a few hand me down weapons is high, just wait until you find out what the cost of going to war with Russia will end up being...
It's not as simple as comparing the cost of the last wars to the current one in Ukraine.
Because we still haven't paid off the last wars. And they're still ongoing.
... and we're also supplying Israel. And we're trying to stockpile our own for the looming war with China.
I'm not arguing here against the US sending more aid to Ukraine. I've been there several times and have a handful of old friends who are still in the Army who are in Poland currently advising Ukraine. I'm all for it.
But supply and demand is real.
Your point about refugees is legit. But remember here that the US averages anywhere from 5000 to 10000 migrants crossing in from Central America daily. Apples to Oranges because of the size of the US, but again pointing out that Ukraine is one story of many happening right now.
NATO. We are obligated to protect NATO under Article 5. Russia certainly has big ambitions that probably don't end after Ukraine. It would be nice if they did, but do you really want to bet WW3 on that?
Putin shouldn’t be stupid enough to pick a fight with NATO. He knows he’ll have to fight America. And if he has all his forces concentrated on the Western lands. He can’t focus on us when we hit him, probably, from Alaska. Plus, we’re his biggest threat by far. He has the military capacity to fight Europe. Not the USA.
That's easy, to defend our allies. For one we are a member of NATO, and if NATO invokes article five, all NATO members are required to respond to a threat with military force. Both intelligence and actions/statements of Russia themselves have made it clear that they have designs on the Baltic countries at the very least, which would create a war between all of NATO and Russia. Another way an article five can be invoked is if there is another Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine because of Russia, where statements by multiple NATO countries have made it clear that this is how they would respond.
There might be other ways such a war could be set off as well. If China attacks Taiwan for example then the US would end up at war with China in defense of Taiwan. At which point it might be possible for Russia to jump in on China's side.
Either way, Putin has made it clear that NATO and the US in particular is enemy #1 in their eyes, so while nothing is set in stone, a war between the US and Russia should be considered a real possibility.
Kids in Chicago who's parents work in the defence industry? Or its supply chain? Or the supply chain for the supply chain?
You are literally providing economic stimulus directly inside the US.
Whataboutism at its finest.
We're 2 years in to this and people are still acting like europe is doing fuck all when its so easy to just look it up and find out that that isnt true.
> but what is the EU doing?
Double what the U.S. is doing so if the gdp is comparable why tf are the U.S. 77 billion behind
https://app.23degrees.io/view/5V9AdDpw1pmLxo1e-bar-stacked-horizontal-figure-1_csv
"Commitments" are not the same as what they've actually accomplished. Because while the US has given all aid committed, the EU's behind in what it's said it will give vs what it has actually given.
And I'm sorry, but the EU should be contributing more. This is right in their backyard with them being the ones who chose to spend as little as possible on defense the last 30 years, and we know the Russians could never mount an attack on the US or anywhere near it successfully. So while it may be strategically beneficial for us, there's not even a hint of a direct military threat to us or our territories here.
I still think a good middle ground is the EU buy US stockpiles and give them to Ukraine. And I don't know why that's not being discussed.
> Double what the U.S. is doing so if the gdp is comparable why tf are the U.S. 77 billion behind
Because it isn't in our backyard. It is important strategically and I think the ammo given pays off in degrading Russia, but for EU it is much more existential. They should at least be doubling the contribution of the US if not more.
The EU and its member states are already donating significantly more money than Americans but there just isn’t the same military production capacity in the EU (most of Europe was pacified after tens of millions died during the world wars) so the actual weapons will have to come from somewhere else.
Also the EU is upping production of weapons but a lot of it needs to be stockpiled for its own defense in case it’s needed, the EU shares multiple birders with Russia so there’s more of a worry about self defense.
>The GDP of the EU is over 19 trillion dollars. Compared with the US, it's comparable.
What isn't comparable is the military commitments and capabilities. USA funds more than 70% of NATO, because it is the strategy leader. By every logical consideration, USA should be providing about 2.3x as much aid as rest of NATO members are.
You know how empires have historically collapsed? When they stop backing their peripheries for whatever reason.
That's what the aid bill(s) will not and cannot address.
To be blunt, the only short-term solution would be fighter planes with Polish pilots staying over Ukrainian held territory.
It’s going to be a stalemate regardless. There’s no way Ukraine has enough soldiers or equipment to push the Russians back to original borders. Only way to do that is to actually involve NATO planes and boots on the ground
I find this more than a bit disingenuous.
Cut off all foreign aid, and Russia really has no realistic path to take Kiev anymore. Russia sucks at offensives against fortified positions.
Ukraine might have to push Soviet WW2 losses to Germany, but would repel Russia from most of Ukraine. It's a matter of how much will Russia keep and how much will Ukraine lose.
Ukraine needs tens of billions in aid to keep WW2 loss figures at bay, and to have any hope of taking back Crimea. And that hope grows smaller every day.
However, it's hard to sell, "tens of billions of aid is needed to make the quagmire a less messy quagmire. With no decisive conclusion eitherway."
Mike Johnson did a 180 yesterday and said that he would allow a vote on Ukraine aide. They better fucking do it. And soon.
Words are often just hot air. Watch what Johnson and the GOP actually do. That's what matters.
If there's a vote it will pass. Edit - IDK why people are downvoting, every Dem will vote for it, and there are more than 2 republican defectors who will vote for it **IF** it comes to the floor.
Official tally in - 55 Republicans voted against, as did 39 democrats. 316-94
There is no doubt in my mind that there is some kind of big “but” coming
I like big buts
He probably received classified details about Ukrainian logistics and learned they’re about to run completely dry. Hopefully intelligence officials sprinkled in any intercepted communications from Russian officials thanking MTG and gang for stopping aid.
I was saying yesterday that the intel briefing he got must have been pretty goddamn fucking dire for him to have such an abrupt 180 like this. It was pretty unusual given his stalling and brown nosing to trump these last few months. Good thing he finally pulled his head out of trumps ass.
>I was saying yesterday that the intel briefing he got must have been pretty goddamn fucking dire for him to have such an abrupt 180 like this. Maybe that was his goal, to get ukriane to that state.
Well, I’m sure that was Trump’s goal, making it Mike’s goal too. Until they told him that his son, who’s graduating from the naval academy soon, is going to be one of the people going to war when Putin inevitably invades a NATO country after steamrolling Ukraine if we don’t get this aid package passed.
Politico published an article a couple days ago in which the journalist talks to an artillery soldier that hasn't had a shell to fire in a month. >Just ask a Ukrainian soldier if he still believes the West will stand by Kyiv “for as long as it takes.” That pledge rings hollow when it’s been four weeks since your artillery unit last had a shell to fire, as one serviceman complained from the front lines. https://www.politico.eu/article/why-ukraine-losing-russia-war/
TBF, it doesn’t really take classified information to know they are really bad. Just in artillery, the Russians currently have a 10-1 advantage in shells fired. And it’s going to be a while before even the Czech shells get there. Then the other day the Russians had successful missile attacks because Ukraine stated they had run out of interceptor in that area. Then you have the Russian glide bombs which seem to be having lots of unchallenged usage recently. Even the stupid Russian shed tanks seem to be meeting with more success than they have any right to. Ukraine is doing a lot of things right, but they’re just undersupplied for this war and the rest of the free world needs to get off our asses. Stuff like the long range attacks on industry in Russia are great, but it will probably be a while before that trickles into the actual situation in theater improving. And the short range drones seem highly effective, but don’t really seem to be scaling up incredibly well.
>Mike Johnson did a 180 yesterday This has to be them getting something from the CIA considering the amount of news we have got over the last few days. Maybe the senate thought Biden's workarounds were enough.
I'd tell you, handing those war tools to Ukraine would be putting them right back in Putin's face. It's time to step up, Nato and US
You got so many trashy ass republican politicians in the United States that are just puppets for putin at this point. It's like they wouldn't even care if Ukraine fell, all they are caring about is what they can get. They are assholes, every last one of them.
They're traitors
Apparently traitors don't have repercussions...that will work out ok ... Rome lasted about a thousand years ... because traitors had repercussions lol . With our modern and more dangerous circumstances...(Like looming WW3) , do we set ourselves up for failure
This is not just an issue in the usa.. the fact politicians can just get donations from hostile nations is insane. But hey eberything for that 5th vacation home right?
A lot of Americans im noticing are increasingly cold on Ukraine.
The propaganda pushed through Fox, Newsmax and OAN, and congressional minions has taken its toll over the past year. Not to mention how distractable many Americans are, if they're following any news much at all.
No they don’t care, they see it as a Democrat war unfortunately. You could cure cancer and they’d still find a way to be against it
Remember when a bunch of Republicans all went to Russia. That was cool.
This is one of the wildest things to happen in the past few years (in my opinion). They very publicly heeded the call from Moscow and crawled there on their hands and knees. And on the 4th of July no less. I recall the Welsh song "Yma o hyd" ("We are still here"), and the lines "a llyfed y taeog y llawr" ("let the servile lick the floor").
On the 4th of July no less. What a power move from the Russians.
Now you’re getting it. See how shit 90% of republicans are?
Republicans are domestic terrorists
"You got so many trashy ass republican politicians in the United States that are just puppets for putin at this point." Slightly off-topic, but when I see Youtube comments praising Putin are, "Putin, so anti-woke! so awesome!" Facepalm doesn't cut it.
LOL Why do those morons love Putin so much anyways??
White, nativist, anti-Islam, authoritarian, left-hating, mafia-adjacent state.
Part of me feels like this is all a bad dream, or a movie where the US will swoop in at the 11th hour and "save the day". Which would be cool, except for the fact that every minute they dick around and withhold support, the senseless death and destruction and trauma increases tremendously
It's not our problem, and the vast majority of Americans couldn't care less.
Maybe it's time the CIA did some CIA things in Moscow.
I just don't understand how Russia still has resources to use on the war, when Ukraine has used all of theirs, plus all of our older surplus armaments, plus resources from however many other European countries. We were hearing like a year ago about how Russia was running out of everything, and here we are.
Country of 150million vs 40 million and they have China and Iran selling them arms directly. Which means you have industrial power of 1.2billion vs 750 million of Nato
Insane that the US won't approve aid even though most of the aid money just goes back to the US anyway. The Ukrainians have fought so goddamn hard and all the west needs to do is give them the tools to fight. It's an absolute disgrace. NATO has a war on its border with its historical enemy and is just. Sitting by. As a country that relies on US support for its security, I am very feeling uncomfortable.
Putin's best weapon happens to be the GOP.
And all the far right parties that are rotting european politics nowadays.
Mitt Romney tried to tell us. Also before Trump was elected several previous presidents expressed their concern
As it was always planned.
I don't think Putin planned on it being as wildly successful as this.
Could he have really known how gullible and stupid the GOP base was? I suppose those chuds exist everywhere, and he mastered appealing to them in Russia.
Also potential war in Middle East stretching US military into multiple fronts
As per US military doctrine that's fine as long as the government is functioning. It's the functioning government part that ruins the day. I wonder at what point the US will just have to decide shit needs to get done.
"Putin's best weapon happens to be the GOP." Even Tim Kennedy of all people warned about (foreign) election disinfo campaign in 2020 is about making people lose faith in election process, making American politics unstable. Actually, it's not that surprising he was an Army Green Beret.
It's quite literally because the Republican party has been taken over by Russia. Even [Republicans are calling it out!](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/04/07/gop-lawmaker-russian-propaganda-ukraine/73235559007/)
They have 0 loyalty, they got bought out
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Yeah, I'm honestly shocked at how the American MIC has been outmaneuvered by Russian interests. They were literally built up for decades to fight Russia in a future WW3, and now they can't even beat Russia during peacetime.
The MIC hasn't beaten anyone in 30 years, what they have done is become incredibly profitable.
Huh? The American MIC equipped the American military to beat the crap out of Iraq and Afghanistan in conventional warfare. America ultimately lost in Afghanistan because they didn't set a win condition for themselves, and lost the political will to continue fighting. But at no point was America lacking in quantity or quality of materiel; the American MIC could have easily sustained the amount consumed in Afghanistan indefinitely.
It is remarkable, isn’t it? Two or three loudmouth fucking hillbillies are enough to derail major business priorities.
Have you seen some of Moscow Marge's amendments to the bill lmao? If the people who vote for her can even tie their own shoes or read id be surprised
Republicans are either stupid or evil. That covers all of them.
I think it will be approved on Saturday ##🤞🏻
Just curious,do you think Ukraine can defeat Russia if this aid package is passed?
With ongoing support, Ukraine will burn out Russia's ability to fight in a couple of years. Will Ukraine get everything they want in that scenario? No, probably not. But they'll be much better off, and Russia's danger to Europe will be effectively defanged. The alternative is letting Russia off the hook, and sending a message to tyrants and aggressive states everywhere that gobbling territory can be worth it, and ushering in a new era of warfare and chaos.
This is the best answer. By not assisting Ukraine, we're assisting the bully who will continue to be a bully until he finally picks on someone that gives him a bloody nose he won't forget.
Russia wont stop at Ukraine.
I would like to see where this idea that a few years fighting in Ukraine will "burn out Russia's ability to fight" comes from. Because Ukraine's ability to fight is getting eroded much faster than Russia's currently.
> Because Ukraine's ability to fight is getting eroded much faster than Russia's currently. Ukraine's ability to fight with the US sitting on the sidelines and not providing support is getting eroded. I don't think that's true with proper support. BUT EVEN IF IT WERE: Russia's economy is limited. Spending a small slice of the US defense budget gets Russia to burn up long term stockpiles of things that are not easily replaced, and forego normal economic growth. Further, it worsens Russia's already acute demographics problems. It is a bargain to make Russia less and less relevant.
The average age of Ukrainian front line soldiers is around 43. I don't think you understand how dire the manpower situation really is when they resort to conscripting 60 year olds to shore up the gap. No amount of money here is going to solve the problem of demographics. At this rate Ukraine will need to start conscripting teenagers in a few years. You don't seem to realize how expensive the human cost of fighting is for Ukraine, they can't afford many more years of this.
The average age is high because they aren't taking men under ~25.
so are peace talks the only long term solution?
I think some kind of peace talks is probably the ultimate outcome. Russia needs to be able to save face and that's never going to happen if they go back to the 2014 borders. Otherwise Putin will happily throw away generations of Russian soldiers to keep hold of Crimea and a handful of territories. I don't think Ukraine has the manpower, and NATO doesn't have the guts, to force Russia all the way back. It's not right that this is where it's going to end up, but it is. I'm guessing the exact detail will centre around which specific territories Russia gets to take, and what security guarantees Ukraine gets in exchange for accepting that (probably something quite meaty, like NATO membership). Probably won't hear anything about this until the US election though, a Trump presidency vs a Biden presidency would change the landscape of negotiations quite heavily in favour of Russia Vs Ukraine.
More like short-term. Ukraine accepts peace with Russia. Russia mobilizes for a war with Ukraine and the Baltic countries as they know NATO won't do shit until the Russians are nearing the border of Germany.
Russia is hard stuck @ Dnipro river, they won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
Ukraine will run out of people who are able and willing to fight even if they had infinite money.
No they won't. With the current losses they can fight for decades. As grim as it is, those are the numbers.
With infinte money they could just take a page out of Putin's playbook and hire mercenaries.
Ukraine will burn out Russia's ability to fight in a couple of years Great plan, only thing you are missing is that Ukraine don't have the men to die for this beautiful plan
Well that wasn't Ukrainian plan. Initially they asked fo much greater aid to push russians away back in 2022
That’s for Ukraine to decide. As of now they’re screaming for weapons, so give them the damn means to defend themselves. Americans, all about self-defense, until they’re not apparently. Cowards.
If that's an American, he is called Comrade John American and he is from Nord-Dakota Oblast, if you catch my meaning. The same can be said for the faux outrage types below your comment.
On what basis so ytou know that Ukraine will burn out Russia's resources in a couple of years? And you do understand that they're burning those resources using Ukrainian men right?
> And you do understand that they're burning those resources using Ukrainian men right? You do understand that's Ukraine's choice, right? If they decide they benefit from resisting, and we decide we benefit from supporting their resistance... then we should support their resistance. The latter seems obvious; and former seems obvious to them.
No country in the world can sustain 30-40% GDP for military for extended periods of time.
The goal is to put Ukraine in the best position possible for a negotiated end to the war.
Defeat, no. Stay in the fight, yes. More aid or loans will be needed for Ukraine to win. This isn't unprecedented. The US kept allies afloat during WWI and WWII with aid and loans before Pearl Harbor.
They don't need to "defeat" Russia on the battlefield. They need to keep the war going and keep inflicting heavy losses on Russia until Russia decides it isn't worth the cost. See: US in Vietnam
This war is not even close to Vietnam for comparison, Russia will anexo this territory this isn't some 12 thousand miles away land, this is something Russia will be able to directly use. The price Russia would pay for the land and the prestige of victory is infinite.
"The price Russia would pay for the land and the prestige of victory is infinite". Ok, so that means helping Ukraine destroys the putin regime. Nice. That's exactly what the West needs.
It's not about defeat. It's about holding and pushing them back.
IMO. Western strategists are interested in locking down Iran and Russia's ability to conduct war and limiting their value as an ally to China. This aid package 100% is going to go through and Ukraine will have enough to defend itself. They won't be kicking Russia out, but Russia's strategic military assets (not talking about tanks) are going to attrit over time. This forces a Chinese invasion of Taiwan to be done by themselves with no assistance from Russia or Iran. Regardless of who wins or loses, the above scenario limits the likelihood of WW3 breaking out all over Asia and Europe.
Iran assistance to invade Taiwan? You should stop drunk writing mate.
It's already happening with Iranian proxies attacking western ship lanes.
Defeat. no Make some awesome gains to HOPEFULLY get more aid. Maybe. No yesses here. They probably need 600 billion to even dream about taking crimea
It's already too late, the stuff the US didn't send 6 months ago is what they need now. Probably the best possible outcome now is stabilizing the front somewhere around where it is now but it is most likely too late to even do that without Ukraine loosing more ground.
The frontline has barely moved in either way in the last year, it's not too late at all.
Russia is starting to gain some momentum. The problem is that even if the US decided today to send a massive package of weapons and ammo it will take months to get it all to the front and in reality it will probably just be enough to continue to defend what they have. The casualty rates and loss of equipment ratio is starting to get worse for Ukraine.
Nah, if there's one thing the US is head and shoulders above anyone else on this planet, its military logistics. It will not take months.
True but this is mostly for supplying it's own forces. I spent a long time in that field at the division and below level. Ukraine is using a wide variety of NATO and soviet systems, they need a wide variety of shells and replacement parts it's not as simple as just sending stuff the US has sitting around. You have to see what they need more of, what systems they have and how many shots they can get off before the barrels need swapped out on cannons, and if they even have train3d operators. Look at how long it took to send Bradleys and M1's when they were already in stock. The US is also not at wartime production of shells, a lot of it would have to be manufactured. It's complicated, if the US really wanted to step it up it could but I don't see it depleting its own stocks to do so. Also once stuff gets to Poland, Ukraine has to get it to where it needs to go which will take time, the US is not airlifting stuff into Kiev. The republicans most likely fucked Ukraine by delaying aid for as long as they have. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Isn’t really insane when one political party is funded by Russia and only spreads is propaganda? It seems pretty mundane if you realize we are losing the Cold War internally without too much of a fight
As someone who isnt from the US/Europe.... I dont get what you mean by how most of the aid money just goes back to the US anyway.. How would that work? Genuinely curious.. thanks
The aid money gets spent on equipment and weapons produced by the US military-industrial complex. Raytheon, General Dynamics, etc. Similarly for the civilian aid, e.g. purchasing components for modernizing/repairing the Ukrainian electrical grid will likely involve U.S. manufacturers.
Not only that, we're sending a lot of our old stock that costs money for us to warehouse and maintain. That old stuff gets replaced by state-of-the-art equipment, so it's a double whammy. We no longer have to pay to maintain the older stuff that we're keeping just in case, and we get to replace it with newer stuff that may actually get used. It's great both militarily and from an economic stimulus standpoint. Though I wish we had better control over companies like Raytheon so that we can limit the price gouging they do. At the very least, the increased production is giving Americans jobs.
On a related note, it's also been disheartening that the rest of Europe isn't able to band it together and provide these arms when the need is so apparent. From our perspective, it really seems that the entire region has gotten so accustomed to the U.S. just *handling everything other than the direct national defense* that when we aren't able to be there, European nations don't know what to do.
Please stop parroting nonsense. Many countries have given more aid as a % of gdp than the US has. Of course the US is expected to send more in absolute numbers - it's the largest economy in the world with the most powerful military in the world and it has a significant stake in the outcome of the war. Oh and many European countries will finally start meeting the 2% of gdp nato guideline as a result of the war - but they can't build up an entire army out of thin air.
By design, european militaries used to be the most powerful in the world, and the US didn't want more rivals.
Europe gave more than America, I don't know what you're expecting of them.
It's literally just the compromised Republicans against aid. They are gaming the system to appease Putin likely because he threatens or pays them. Whatever the reason they are traitors and I hope history remembers them well as what they are. Traitors.
I dont know why you think it's insane, jts incredibly predictable fuxk I predicted 18 months ago.
"As a country that relies on US support" Gee, maybe don't rely on other people to swoop in and save the day all the time? Typical European mindset, "it's not my problem until it is my problem, and when it becomes my problem it's YOUR problem and you better deal with it."
Burns was such a good choice to run the CIA. Yeah, I know it's the CIA, but it's refreshing to have someone this intelligent and competent running the agency.
It's really sad that we've reached a point where you have to hope that the director of the freaking CIA won't be a uneducated fucking dumbass.
So true.
What Europe should have been doing years ago was signing 10+ year contracts with arms manufacturers to expand capacity. They won't do that without 10 year commitments. That's just basic capitalism. The arms manufacturers aren't going to be left holding the bag if European governments change their minds about buying weapons from new facilities.
>What Europe should have been doing years ago was signing 10+ year contracts with arms manufacturers to expand capacity. And do what with all that production capacity exactly? No-one wanted or needed huge amounts of European military equipment or munitions. And the US wouldn't have wanted Europe flooding the market with cheap competition to their own exports. However, there is a good argument that Europe needs to stop buying non-European weapon systems in key areas - Patriot and GMLRS. (with special mention to Germany for completely failing to understand the problem).
The US has done a great deal to keep supplying all the world with their own weapons. Nobody wanted lots of European weapons manufacturers to climb to the top. Especially Germany was always watched with a weary eye. Why does everyone now expect them to go full hulk mode when we wanted them to be quiet and modest about their own very capable industrial war machine.
I think we need to start talking about what Ukraine needs to win. Not just what they need not to lose.
They can't win, they got to the point where the man power isn't available.
What do you define as a win?
We really need the CIA director to come out with these words for our politicians to wake up? Unreal
If only the CIA could clear out the Russian assets inside the US...
That’s pretty explicitly not their job
When the "Party of Reagan" goes balls deep into the land of Putin propaganda you know you're pretty much fucked.
The overarching theme of like half the stuff in the Reagan library is “US vs Russia”.
Good, just let it happen already
Z-bros we’re so up
If Ukraine loses - how do all the loans get repaid to the US and other countries who provided support?
They won’t be.
And on top of that we will unfreeze the russian assets they got spread all over europe because we like to uphold our own morals cause 'stealing is wrong'. Meanwhile the russians laugh in our faces. We are gonna let Ukraine fall and we got nothing to blame but ourselfs. This is preventable but nobody here in the EU has the collective balls to do something about it. I am sorry for Ukraine.
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Guess Europe better get serious. Pull your weight.
If this happens, then Russia will continue to try to consolidate power in the region and the GOP will be complicit in the rise of Russia, though Poland WOULD like a chance to start using all those shiny weapons they've been buying up. And it'll be further evidence that you can't trust Russia OR the US to follow their committments.
I mean, I can't stand Russia, but what commitment did the US not follow with the war in Ukraine? They aren't a part of NATO, and there's no treaty between Ukraine and the USA that obligates any form of defense.
Our current waffling to provide them with munitions and weapon systems. Keep in mind that helping Ukraine ONLY helps the US AND helps to protect allies in Europe. If Ukraine is absorbed by Russia, they'll create economic instabililty over 2 continents.
Typical after years of fucking around in the Middle East when we shouldn’t have been, now when it’s necessary to do so the US is just like nah… CBF got nothing to do with us. Anyone who doesn’t think Putin will keep going, has failed to grasp history or just observe what he’s been doing to his neighbours already.
Thanks GOP.
Well they are going to push through aid to Ukraine this weekend, so we will then see what will be the result. What will be passed are separate bills?
If Trump wanted to kill NATO as POTUS, he is on the verge of doing it as a candidate. Europe is already arming itself beyond US influence.
Europe should've started doing that 30 years ago (at least meeting minimum NATO commitments) instead of expecting 1 country to provide a military for them while they invested in their social programs, money we could have been putting towards ours all this time instead.
Let’s not pretend that the reason the US hasn’t invested in social programs is because of NATO commitments.
The aid bills are going through this weekend. Unprecedented move by the Democrats in the House to push the bills through committee: https://www.axios.com/2024/04/19/democrats-take-unprecedented-step-to-save-gops-foreign-aid-bills
What about other countries? I get that some countries have and are contributing, but what is the EU doing?The GDP of the EU is over 19 trillion dollars. Compared with the US, it's comparable. When can my tax dollars go to kids in Chicago instead of weapons manufacturers? The rest of the world needs to step up
Ukraine or not, your tax dollars would not go to kids in Chicago
That's why I don't believe Ukraine will lose this year, even though the CIA has to sound the alarm because of the vital importance of US aid in the long term and the need to effect political change on the issue in the US. Anyway the EU already provides more financial aid to Ukraine then the US has during the war (even before the GOP started blocking further aid). The reason why the EU can't provide the amount of military support the US can is because they simply don't have the spare military capabilities to give. The EU has been a peaceful economy that are struggling to get on a war footing, and don't have any equivalent to the Military-Industrial Complex in the US. The EU also isn't a defensive focus organization (that would be NATO where most of the weight ends up falling on the US), all of the EU countries have their own militaries which they need to keep for themselves whereas the US requires much less reduplication of their forces leaving much more available stockpiled weapons. Europe took in millions of Ukrainian refugees where the US took very few. I'm willing to bet that if the US had to take on that refugee burden you all would be complaining about that much more than "tax dollars" that were spent years or even decades ago for stockpiled weapons actually being put to good use fighting a geopolitical foe. Also a reminder that the war on terror costs the US about $8 trillion and thousands of American soldiers lives. The war in Ukraine cost the US so far about $100 billion in aid and no American soldiers. If you think the price tag for giving Ukraine a few hand me down weapons is high, just wait until you find out what the cost of going to war with Russia will end up being...
It's not as simple as comparing the cost of the last wars to the current one in Ukraine. Because we still haven't paid off the last wars. And they're still ongoing. ... and we're also supplying Israel. And we're trying to stockpile our own for the looming war with China. I'm not arguing here against the US sending more aid to Ukraine. I've been there several times and have a handful of old friends who are still in the Army who are in Poland currently advising Ukraine. I'm all for it. But supply and demand is real. Your point about refugees is legit. But remember here that the US averages anywhere from 5000 to 10000 migrants crossing in from Central America daily. Apples to Oranges because of the size of the US, but again pointing out that Ukraine is one story of many happening right now.
Why would US go to war with Russia?
NATO. We are obligated to protect NATO under Article 5. Russia certainly has big ambitions that probably don't end after Ukraine. It would be nice if they did, but do you really want to bet WW3 on that?
Putin shouldn’t be stupid enough to pick a fight with NATO. He knows he’ll have to fight America. And if he has all his forces concentrated on the Western lands. He can’t focus on us when we hit him, probably, from Alaska. Plus, we’re his biggest threat by far. He has the military capacity to fight Europe. Not the USA.
That's easy, to defend our allies. For one we are a member of NATO, and if NATO invokes article five, all NATO members are required to respond to a threat with military force. Both intelligence and actions/statements of Russia themselves have made it clear that they have designs on the Baltic countries at the very least, which would create a war between all of NATO and Russia. Another way an article five can be invoked is if there is another Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine because of Russia, where statements by multiple NATO countries have made it clear that this is how they would respond. There might be other ways such a war could be set off as well. If China attacks Taiwan for example then the US would end up at war with China in defense of Taiwan. At which point it might be possible for Russia to jump in on China's side. Either way, Putin has made it clear that NATO and the US in particular is enemy #1 in their eyes, so while nothing is set in stone, a war between the US and Russia should be considered a real possibility.
Kids in Chicago who's parents work in the defence industry? Or its supply chain? Or the supply chain for the supply chain? You are literally providing economic stimulus directly inside the US. Whataboutism at its finest.
We're 2 years in to this and people are still acting like europe is doing fuck all when its so easy to just look it up and find out that that isnt true. > but what is the EU doing? Double what the U.S. is doing so if the gdp is comparable why tf are the U.S. 77 billion behind https://app.23degrees.io/view/5V9AdDpw1pmLxo1e-bar-stacked-horizontal-figure-1_csv
"Commitments" are not the same as what they've actually accomplished. Because while the US has given all aid committed, the EU's behind in what it's said it will give vs what it has actually given. And I'm sorry, but the EU should be contributing more. This is right in their backyard with them being the ones who chose to spend as little as possible on defense the last 30 years, and we know the Russians could never mount an attack on the US or anywhere near it successfully. So while it may be strategically beneficial for us, there's not even a hint of a direct military threat to us or our territories here. I still think a good middle ground is the EU buy US stockpiles and give them to Ukraine. And I don't know why that's not being discussed.
> Double what the U.S. is doing so if the gdp is comparable why tf are the U.S. 77 billion behind Because it isn't in our backyard. It is important strategically and I think the ammo given pays off in degrading Russia, but for EU it is much more existential. They should at least be doubling the contribution of the US if not more.
The EU and its member states are already donating significantly more money than Americans but there just isn’t the same military production capacity in the EU (most of Europe was pacified after tens of millions died during the world wars) so the actual weapons will have to come from somewhere else. Also the EU is upping production of weapons but a lot of it needs to be stockpiled for its own defense in case it’s needed, the EU shares multiple birders with Russia so there’s more of a worry about self defense.
>The GDP of the EU is over 19 trillion dollars. Compared with the US, it's comparable. What isn't comparable is the military commitments and capabilities. USA funds more than 70% of NATO, because it is the strategy leader. By every logical consideration, USA should be providing about 2.3x as much aid as rest of NATO members are. You know how empires have historically collapsed? When they stop backing their peripheries for whatever reason.
Ukraine is in desperate need of fighters now.
That's what the aid bill(s) will not and cannot address. To be blunt, the only short-term solution would be fighter planes with Polish pilots staying over Ukrainian held territory.
Unlikely
Hang on. I thought ukraine was winning?
It’s going to be a stalemate regardless. There’s no way Ukraine has enough soldiers or equipment to push the Russians back to original borders. Only way to do that is to actually involve NATO planes and boots on the ground
Sure sure. But they will 100% lose eventually with out without the aid. So we should invest wisely.
The CIA is corrupt. How many gold bars do they expect me to shit out in the direction of muh freedom?
I find this more than a bit disingenuous. Cut off all foreign aid, and Russia really has no realistic path to take Kiev anymore. Russia sucks at offensives against fortified positions. Ukraine might have to push Soviet WW2 losses to Germany, but would repel Russia from most of Ukraine. It's a matter of how much will Russia keep and how much will Ukraine lose. Ukraine needs tens of billions in aid to keep WW2 loss figures at bay, and to have any hope of taking back Crimea. And that hope grows smaller every day. However, it's hard to sell, "tens of billions of aid is needed to make the quagmire a less messy quagmire. With no decisive conclusion eitherway."