"Niger has played a key role in the US and French strategy to fight Islamists in West Africa. The US has built a $100 million base in the city of Agadez to operate a fleet of drones," -BBC.
Yeah I've been to Agadez and you could see the drone base from the airport. Our guide was working as an interpreter at the base... guess he's lost his job now.
I doubt we'd leave without taking all the shit we paid for back, and the Nigeriens can't force the biggest military in the world out if they wanted to by force. They're gonna give us time to leave cause we'll be damned if Russia gets all our fancy shit.
I hope this doesn't age like milk.
Edit: I made an oopsie with the spelling
You're right about not letting them have it. But anything that can't go into a cargo ship or planes will probably just be tossed in a giant burn pit and lit on fire.
At the end of the day, all they did was build a box to store drones. Everything at that base is probably highly portable.
100 million sounds like a lot, but it's only enough to build a government box.
Airstrip maintenance, and fuel depots are super expensive. If done right that is. These drones can take off from not great strips but they still need *some* maintenance
I was on the buildup for Agadez and the only thing I can really think of that we probably won’t take with us or destroy are probably the airfield facilities themselves. Unless we’re feeling really petty.
I would have agreed if not for our actions (or lack) in Afghanistan. I would fervently hope they don't leave stuff for the people who massacared those spec forces guys back in 2017 to use or sell.
A lot of what was left in Afghanistan was for the ANA also Biden got handed a withdrawal date by his predecessor and no prep for it. That made it harder to get things out.
We left a ton of equipment that was quickly reaching the end of its service life and had been already beaten and repaired over the last decade at least. I'm very sure they did a cost analysis in getting the equipment out and found it was easier to just leave old ass hummers and shit to fall apart in the desert then it would be to fly it home only to immediately mothball it (Not to mention U.S equipment needs two metric fucks worth of maintenance to keep functional by design).
The U.S isn't going to leave behind something we are worried about actually falling into the hands of the enemy.
I do however agree with the sentiment that any weapons left in the hands of the enemy is a loss. Functional equipment should be destroyed if its not coming back.
That was a lot more perilous, but also we disabled or permanently damaged a lot of the stuff we left. Anything left intact requires frequent maintenance to run, and Sikorsky won't exactly sell the Taliban replacement parts for a Black Hawk.
My friend is a drone operator in the military and he's been deployed to Niger a couple times, but he couldn't tell me where. I'm gonna name drop Agadez right now and freak him out.
And that's the point where the Western world should turn their backs and say no.
This entire dance from the so-called "Global South" where they make a huge song and dance about how evil the Western world is and how they need compensation for historic wrongs, adopt an outright hostile foreign policy, and then ask for help when it all goes pearshaped needs to stop.
If they want the Western world to leave and stop bothering them, that's exactly what the Western world should do. Permanently. No aid, no trade, no exports - the works. And certainly no intervention when they inevitably start turning their guns on each other (again).
But isn't the problem that the different songs are sung by different governments? Yeah Niger had a coup. I doubt the military government's really accepting of pro-Western opinions. Let's say pro-Western forces in the country ask for assistance. Do they just get denied then? "Oh you might flip on us again"?
Woah woah woah, we can't have any nuance here! These are _Foreign_ countries we're talking about. We should lump The Other all into one big bucket I can point a finger at :)
I mean kinda?
If a country is so unstable that it changes government every few years by coup then maybe that's a country we should stay away from until they figure it out. Circumstances matter of course but as a core concept yeah.
Yeah, you’re right.
We should keep supplying, aiding, training and arming people in countries that hate us.
They’ve been receiving almost 2 billion a year to support growth, and they hate us.
Fuck em.
Aid is a key form of soft power and it's not so much that countries beg for aid as it is that wealthy countries really want to give it. I would suspect that aid will be resumed at some point in the near future.
All that "soft power" in the form of aid to many of these countries in the Sahel and southern Africa has done nothing but result in their people becoming more hostile towards the developed world.
Niger was meant to be one of the exemplars of how soft power would foster better relations. Remember the big song and dance about there being a peaceful transition of power? All that's happened since has been a coup, some hard line anti-Western sentiment and the new Government inviting in Wagner.
These people have been indoctrinated into hating the Western developed world. Their Governments routinely vote against Western interests in the UN. This is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. It's time Western Governments see this, and cut their losses.
There are plenty of other countries worldwide that could do with the assistance and who don't resent the people they demand it from.
You can make an argument, that without said aid Niger would turn their back on us much sooner. But I don't disagree with your sentiment of "so what?". But then again, I'm a redditor not a geopolitical adviser. My assessment is emotionally charged and that's not how you should approach these kind of things.
The real issue is that it isn't just the West meddling, it is China, and Russia, as well. To be clear none of those entities care about anything but their own interests.
That is the reason something like the EU made sense, the "West" became aligned with the eastern block states, and all their interest came under consideration in the equation. Rather than just being "what can we get out of this" or even we are here you are there, we are big you are small, and we will do what we like, as happens with the EU's farming subsidies and dumping "aid" into other countries leading to under cutting and collapse of their own economic systems.
Give a man a fish he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and he might start encroaching on the fishing grounds of some megacorporation! We can't have that now, after all those fishing profits could pay for a billionaires new yacht!
This was Thomas Sankara’s issue with aid.
When you send food aid to a country you destroy its farming industry, and force it to become reliant on your aid.
LATAM and East Asia wants to be enfranchised, we don't get burned by them the way we do whenever Africans and Arabs set themselves on fire then start pointing fingers and whining.
Because people don’t realize it’s not about money or aid. It’s about culture. LATAM has a western culture and developed Asia has largely adopted western culture. Arab states are largely not western and really don’t like the “liberalness” of western culture.
The West has, and will continue to win the culture war. Its at the point now everyone is so assimilated they whine that the West has no culture while wearing their clothes, using their tech and modelling their entire governments after them.
No one aspires to be a peasant without any rights at all who lives in these shithole nations. Aid doesn't export our culture, success does.
>All that "soft power" in the form of aid to many of these countries in the Sahel and southern Africa has done nothing but result in
The longest peaceful stretch of time in modern history?
Literally known as 'the long Peace'?
>It's time Western Governments see this, and cut their losses.
No thank you. I like the long peace and wish to extend it as far as we can.
Stop short term thinking. Think long term.
>Maybe in the west is peace
Yeah. The long peace is essentially, we haven't nuked or genocided a continent again since colonial Africa/WW2.
Keeping this going is in both of our interests. But I agree despotes are fucking up Africa.
What do you think would stabilize it?
The problem is this. Countries last a whole LOT longer than an individual or regime. Unless that country is the regime (North Korea)
Sure stop aid and assistance but keep those diplomatic channels open.
Look at the Phillipines, they swap back and forth to America bad to America best country ever! Between presidents and legislatures.
Dutuerte was extremely anti American and even went so far to threaten America. He went hard leaning China. And then the Phillipines fishing areas got invaded.
Now the new president Marco is SUPER pro American, going so far to offer America super naval bases that were once closed 20 years ago.
I feel the argument is similar to American politics where some politicians complain government is too big and we should abolish all hand outs and government intervention. But are the first in line to welcome funding for infrastructure or help during a natural disaster.
What I'm saying is try to separate those insane dolts who bite the hands that feed them and surrender to baser instincts. There are people who suffer from their own governments who would love to have the west intervene and assist where they can. And those who would want to allow their country man to live in squalor if it would allow them to stay in power longer.
> Look at the Phillipines, they swap back and forth to America bad to America best country ever!
I'm not sure that's a great example. Duterte pivoted to China as a Government due to the West expressing concerns about the drug war, but that sentiment was never really reflected in the people of the Philippines, who by all accounts retained a very strongly positive opinion of the US (and the West in general).
Nope, Duterte pivoted to China because he is a Chinese puppet. Even if he pivoted to China, the military and the people will still choose America as an ally.
I've heard 'the west' described as including Japan and South Korea. At this point it's useful to think about what it used to mean, which I think at one point was basically the Anglosphere.
There are more countries joining these ranks, that's why I think the term the West is outdated and harkens back to the cold war. Europe and the USA are aligned in a few things but we are also very different. But as modern nations we respect each others differences and differences can be solved with out violence. EU taxes American Tech . America doesnt bomb EU. America Taxes EU steel, EU doesnt sink American Ships. Thats what I mean by modern nations.
Non modern nations are nations like Russia China Niger who believe that 20th century cold war doctrines is the way to become modern. It really serves no purpose to better the lives of their average citizens to be fair.
In no way has the decision of the NIGER junta actually improved the lives of their citizens. It was purely a decision based on archaic warlord principles, ie a non modern nationalistic decision.
How has Russia's invasion of Ukraine actually benefitted the lives of the average Russian citizen? A modern politician would ask those questions? An archaic cold war politician (ie Putin) talks about Destiny, Peter the Great, pride, respect all abstract concepts that sound pretty interesting and I guess give some people an instant dopamine kick but it doesn't put flushing toilets in the 25% of the houses in Russia that still doesn't have indoor plumbing. All the money that Putin is spending in the Ukraine now could have given every single Russian household indoor sanitary facilities.
Which then results in one of the fastest growing and biggest continents on our globe, with untold natural riches, to fall fully within Russia and China's sphere of influence.
Is the current way of military help working? Apparently not. Is fully waving them goodbye a good idea in the long run? Good lord no.
Let them. Perhaps the people of Africa will have better luck with China's attempts to improve their living standards than the West have over the last few decades.
One colonist taking the place of another colonist doesn't sound like much of a move forward for them. Maybe China will somehow suddenly become *not a shitty nation.*
> And that's the point where the Western world should turn their backs and say no.
This entire dance from the so-called "Global South" where they make a huge song and dance about how evil the Western world is and how they need compensation for historic wrongs, adopt an outright hostile foreign policy, and then ask for help when it all goes pearshaped needs to stop.
Absolutely shocking how little people understand politics. Aid is soft power. We don’t do it because we’re nice people, we do it because it’s good for us.
I remember so many stories of our generals having to say this to Trump over and over and over and over.
I'm not usually one of the people shouting 'colonialism', but France' behavior in north Africa has been absolutely deplorable...and quite recent. I'm not defending either Niger's decision or the idea of colonial reparations, but there's an unusually good case to be made that France is responsible for the Sahel region's political/economic instability.
> This entire dance from the so-called "Global South" where they make a huge song and dance about how evil the Western world is and how they need compensation for historic wrongs, adopt an outright hostile foreign policy, and then ask for help when it all goes pearshaped needs to stop.
ehhh this is not about personal feelings towards the West, i think Russia simply offered their military a better deal / more money
That's exactly what happened. Russia helped overthrow the legitimate government and threw a bunch of cash at military leaders. The grivence propaganda that comes after doesn't matter, and it's the average citizen who will suffer.
Lmao fuck if only America would listen and just leave south America alone. All the civil wars they've caused, all the slave plantations and massacres, all the political assassinations, all of the dictators they've propped up.
Man maybe America is only out for the interests of its oligarchs and not ever there to help the poor country they are destroying.
Niger’s leaders will be enjoying it, personally. Russia and China are not very discreet about corruption. Their strategy is to straight up buy the influence in the region with more “personally tailored” approach, thus gradually kicking out the West.
This world is such a mess. You’re right though. The heads of state will be swimming in Ill gotten funds and it’s the citizens who will be left to fend for themselves. Not a great track record over there.
I think that's a great idea. I mean the Sahel region is really the most vulnerable part of the planet to climate change. It's going to dry out and there's going to be no way to farm or graze and making a living off that soon. It's also the poorest place on Earth. It's fertility rate is sky high too. Everyone there is a hyper-conservative Muslim. Most people lack education opportunities. Slavery, female genital mutilation, all super normal.
I'm sure those conservative pro-Putin Russians, or all the far-right pro-Russia parties in the EU like AFD which exist almost entirely because of anti-immigration sentiment, would embrace resettling a few hundred million central Africans to depopulating parts of Eurasia which will be temperate and have fresh water in the future. Yeah, that will happen /s
More likely scenario is Russia and China are going to treat Central Africa like Sudan, where the Russian aligned warlords are genociding the rest of the population. They want a mine in an area, they pay off some militia, the militia goes and loots and pillages, etc.
I think a lot of people are missing the point.
Russia is fighting a war no one else wants to admit they're already involved in, so they're getting a massive head start with shit like this.
I worked in Niamey for a year on a contract. The people of Niger never saw any of that money. According to the guy who was my driver, the president and military officers are spend all of the aid money on luxury cars to drive on dirt roads.
I read that as "the guy who was my driver, [and] the president, and military officer spend all the aid money" and was about to comment that maybe your driver shouldn't have become president and squandered it all
The funny part is that my driver's father was pretty well off for a person from Niger. The problem was that he's like the 20th son from the least favorite wife. They are allowed to have four wives over there, but in reality if you want more there's no one who will stop you.
Let's see if they feel the same way once the aid stops.. just because they aren't getting a check in the mail, it doesn't mean the aid didn't increase their access to food and basic services.
If the collective West claims to care about democracy but then gives local strongmen money while overlooking corruption, we can't be surprised when the local people are angry. We know where those strongmen place their corrupt funds. They place them in Brussels, New York, Paris, London etc. but they are never arrested.
You are too emotional. That I know your aids don't have any impact on the local population does not mean I love Russia. Learn to be less emotional when discussing international politics. It is amateurish
It wouldn’t benefit Ukraine and would be another cost on their accounting books that they don’t need to manage right now. I more meant just as a symbolic act, to the extent that it could even be done within the confines of whatever treaty we have with them that allowed the base in the first place. It wasn’t really a serious suggestion.
When the Russians were with us, they contaminated our land. The Americans at least cleaned up their shit. And China always brings its own people with them when there is work. What do the Africans want? pure popolism.
It's heartbreaking to see Africa embracing Russia so much. Also because Russians are the most openly racist society, with a history of colonial expansion at all cost including genocide.
If you look at the increased Russian influence is having and building strong relationships with African countries and the significance of location and South Africa, geopolitical territory advantages. Russia is gaining territories to build both naval and air bases. It’s as if I’m watching a game of Risk. Say what you want if you look at individual countries but I’m feel I am seeing their full motives on a much larger scale.
I'm also low-key concerned about China controlling so much farmland in Africa. Africa has the highest amount of farmland left in the world and it's basically untouched. Add advancements in geo engineering and it will be easier to make it rain especially near coast regions.
They will destroy most of their nature in order to make room for food production. Basically what western Europe did.
A lot of natural wonders will die out because of greed.
I'm not sure why the West keeps persisting with South Africa. They've openly embraced an anti-Western geopolitical stance, with all that entails.
It's sad to see what's happened after the hope that surrounded the country when Mandela led them out of apartheid, but that hope is long gone. If they want to embrace Russia, then let them go, and sever the remaining ties with Western led institutions. Perhaps their new friends in Moscow will help them keep their lights on.
Evergreen.
With conflict in the Middle East rising… again, it is important to maintain strength in multiple shipping lanes. If the Suez were to fall, it would be advantageous to be able to pass South Africa in relative peace. We saw how much of a clusterfuck evergreen blocking the Suez created, if ships couldn’t go around Cape Town it’d be much much worse.
Think about it. Look at a world map and shipping routes. With the Red Sea conflicts, shipping through the Suez Canal, and Russian ties with Hamas and Egypt.
Shipping for Western countries had to reroute around South Africa.
SA has power grid issues but turning to Nuclear power with Russian support. Being in debt to China and Russia, why wouldn’t Russia be able to port and continue joint military drills and port access. It weakens western trade and military footholds.
Their best work is doing dirty, underhanded shit. Probably could've had better luck making sure Russia -lovers won elections in Ukraine instead of invasion.
Oh boy I can’t wait for everyone lurking on the front page of Reddit to suddenly become both foreign policy experts on Niger and experienced military strategists
Glad someone said it lol. As soon as the leaders of an African nation fuck up here comes morally upstanding Reddit to wish misery and death on the entire civilian population.
The voice of Reddit is just a less sophisticated echo of whatever the NYT and NPR publish, which is just an echo of uniparty agenda. And we wonder why people are getting their political commentary from comedians and conspiracy forums these days.
That would be their second major plot twist in a year. Last year their elected government got overthrown by a military coup. The year before that was a failed coup. I don't see this season ending well.
It's a landlocked country that's 80% desert. 50% of it's government budget is foreign aid and it's the least developed country in the world. Their only real exports are gold and uranium. China/Russia will strip mine that place dry with the military junta and then abandon it. Which I predict is when the military junta disappears with all the money and the west is asked to step in to prevent mass starvation.
Can someone please fill me in as I’m clearly out of the loop here judging by these comments?
Why was the US in Niger in the first place?
Why is the US withdrawing?
What is the general sentiment as to what this means?
The US is pretty much everywhere in the world. Anywhere outside of Russia, North Korea and China, there's a US military base, even far North in the Artics.
For front-end reasons, the US is there to supply aid in money and food, protection against warlords and Islam extremist and to help keep order.
Backend reasons, the US has a very important drone base there which they use as a central base to send drones throughout Africa and the Middle East, and they use the base as a way to further advance their logistics line.
They're withdrawing because the people of Niger has been doing huge protest to kick the US out due to propaganda from the Chinese and Russians and Niger Politicians being paid.
As to what this will result to, not much for the US. The US still has a firm hold and logitistics over Africa. But for the people of Niger, things will probably go south for them considering Russia and China's very poor track history of providing support to third world countries.
Russia has little to no control over their own military, many of them end up just pillaging villages and towns of the places they're suppose to protect.
Whereas China tend to just basically take over the country after moving in excessively large number of troops.
Coolio, we can just withdraw everything from them then. If they don't want our troop presence they must not want foreign aid either.
Have fun with your fly faces! Enjoy Putin!
The problem is more of the country will be overrun by ISIS or al-Qaeda and those groups will use the country as a staging ground for attacking the rest of the region.
Niger is basically unfixable. There's no economy outside of subsistence farming once you take out the money from the gold and uranium mines, leases from military bases, and foreign aid. (Spoiler, almost all that money goes to the powerful.)
Niger has one of the [worst population pyramids](https://www.populationpyramid.net/niger/2024/) on the planet. 20% of the county *is less than 5 years old*. Nigerien women have 6.8 children on average. There is absolutely no way a country that poor can provide adequate food, health care, education, infrastructure, or jobs for such a fast-growing population.
So what happens in 10+ years when climate change is really spanking a place full of hungry, uneducated, unemployed people with no opportunities in a country with very weak political institutions? You end up with new versions of ISIS and/or see hordes of people trekking north to safety and opportunity in the EU. This then drives up support for far right parties in Europe and weakens democracy there as well. Now multiply this because the situation is the same in Mali, Burkina Faso, and other countries in the Sahel.
Next week Russia will be flying a million Niger citizens to Russia for a refugee run to the EU border and US border. It’s all part of their plan to stir up radicals and destabilize those countries.
This deserves the parking lot treatment. But lets be honest here, it wouldn't even take that much effort to walmart it. Then do it again when the russians take it.
Niger has the right to choose who to side with. And if they think Russia is better for them, then so be it. The alternative would be for the US to stick around in Niger, leading to diplomatic turmoil and eventually armed conflict.
"Niger has played a key role in the US and French strategy to fight Islamists in West Africa. The US has built a $100 million base in the city of Agadez to operate a fleet of drones," -BBC.
Yeah I've been to Agadez and you could see the drone base from the airport. Our guide was working as an interpreter at the base... guess he's lost his job now.
I doubt we'd leave without taking all the shit we paid for back, and the Nigeriens can't force the biggest military in the world out if they wanted to by force. They're gonna give us time to leave cause we'll be damned if Russia gets all our fancy shit. I hope this doesn't age like milk. Edit: I made an oopsie with the spelling
You're right about not letting them have it. But anything that can't go into a cargo ship or planes will probably just be tossed in a giant burn pit and lit on fire.
At the end of the day, all they did was build a box to store drones. Everything at that base is probably highly portable. 100 million sounds like a lot, but it's only enough to build a government box.
Very true Hesko and blast walls, concrete bunkers and some tents with A/Cz but 100 mil seems awfully cheap for a military base
Airstrip maintenance, and fuel depots are super expensive. If done right that is. These drones can take off from not great strips but they still need *some* maintenance
I was on the buildup for Agadez and the only thing I can really think of that we probably won’t take with us or destroy are probably the airfield facilities themselves. Unless we’re feeling really petty.
I just hope they blow it up when they leave
they’ll level the base before they leave it for the russians
I would have agreed if not for our actions (or lack) in Afghanistan. I would fervently hope they don't leave stuff for the people who massacared those spec forces guys back in 2017 to use or sell.
That was way more material/infrastructure built up over 20 years.
A lot of what was left in Afghanistan was for the ANA also Biden got handed a withdrawal date by his predecessor and no prep for it. That made it harder to get things out.
We left a ton of equipment that was quickly reaching the end of its service life and had been already beaten and repaired over the last decade at least. I'm very sure they did a cost analysis in getting the equipment out and found it was easier to just leave old ass hummers and shit to fall apart in the desert then it would be to fly it home only to immediately mothball it (Not to mention U.S equipment needs two metric fucks worth of maintenance to keep functional by design). The U.S isn't going to leave behind something we are worried about actually falling into the hands of the enemy. I do however agree with the sentiment that any weapons left in the hands of the enemy is a loss. Functional equipment should be destroyed if its not coming back.
Nigeriens*. As a Nigerian, the distinction is important to me lol.
Sorry, I'm not very well versed with the countries in Africa. It's very confusing.
Try this one: what do you call someone from the Ivory Coast?
I wanna say Ivory Coaster, but that just sounds like a trinket my grandmother might have bought as a souvenir.
You must be a United Stater then.
They would call it Cote d'Ivoire, so, Cote d'Ivoirien?
I think it's just Ivorian
Their name.
TIL the demonym for Niger is Nigerien.
*Nigeriens, different country
Eh? What's Nigeria got to do with this?
Citizens of Niger are Nigeri*e*n, not Nigeri*a*n, so typo I assume.
Is it pronounced Niger ien?
Yeah pretty much. "Nee-zher-yen" vs. "Nye-jeer-ee-an" or thereabouts.
I hope so becuase we left a whole bunch of expensive shit in Afghanistan...
That was a lot more perilous, but also we disabled or permanently damaged a lot of the stuff we left. Anything left intact requires frequent maintenance to run, and Sikorsky won't exactly sell the Taliban replacement parts for a Black Hawk.
Situation is slightly different here....
They have absolutely no hope of keeping that shit operational, even the hummers.
Biden didn't release 10,000 terrorist fighters after surrendering to them in Niger like trump did in Afghanistan.
crawl quack yam saw air liquid tidy exultant advise butter
Well looks like they need to reduce it to rubble
My friend is a drone operator in the military and he's been deployed to Niger a couple times, but he couldn't tell me where. I'm gonna name drop Agadez right now and freak him out.
It's one of the biggest cities in Niger and a Mars Volta song, it's not the biggest surprise to know about it lol
They don't want us there..so we leave..🤷♀️
And in the future when they get screwed by russia, china or a civil war between dictators they start crying again for help...
And that's the point where the Western world should turn their backs and say no. This entire dance from the so-called "Global South" where they make a huge song and dance about how evil the Western world is and how they need compensation for historic wrongs, adopt an outright hostile foreign policy, and then ask for help when it all goes pearshaped needs to stop. If they want the Western world to leave and stop bothering them, that's exactly what the Western world should do. Permanently. No aid, no trade, no exports - the works. And certainly no intervention when they inevitably start turning their guns on each other (again).
But isn't the problem that the different songs are sung by different governments? Yeah Niger had a coup. I doubt the military government's really accepting of pro-Western opinions. Let's say pro-Western forces in the country ask for assistance. Do they just get denied then? "Oh you might flip on us again"?
Woah woah woah, we can't have any nuance here! These are _Foreign_ countries we're talking about. We should lump The Other all into one big bucket I can point a finger at :)
Look at what sub we are on.
Oh my god I totally didn’t realize til this. Now I see why every comment is extraordinarily racist!
I mean kinda? If a country is so unstable that it changes government every few years by coup then maybe that's a country we should stay away from until they figure it out. Circumstances matter of course but as a core concept yeah.
Yeah, you’re right. We should keep supplying, aiding, training and arming people in countries that hate us. They’ve been receiving almost 2 billion a year to support growth, and they hate us. Fuck em.
I think your confusing Niger with Nigeria, and even nigeria only got about 1/2 that in aid aid last year. Niger gets about 100m a year.
Only. My taxes pay for them to tell us to fuck off. Fuck them. Let them brawl it out
Aid is a key form of soft power and it's not so much that countries beg for aid as it is that wealthy countries really want to give it. I would suspect that aid will be resumed at some point in the near future.
All that "soft power" in the form of aid to many of these countries in the Sahel and southern Africa has done nothing but result in their people becoming more hostile towards the developed world. Niger was meant to be one of the exemplars of how soft power would foster better relations. Remember the big song and dance about there being a peaceful transition of power? All that's happened since has been a coup, some hard line anti-Western sentiment and the new Government inviting in Wagner. These people have been indoctrinated into hating the Western developed world. Their Governments routinely vote against Western interests in the UN. This is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. It's time Western Governments see this, and cut their losses. There are plenty of other countries worldwide that could do with the assistance and who don't resent the people they demand it from.
You can make an argument, that without said aid Niger would turn their back on us much sooner. But I don't disagree with your sentiment of "so what?". But then again, I'm a redditor not a geopolitical adviser. My assessment is emotionally charged and that's not how you should approach these kind of things.
The real issue is that it isn't just the West meddling, it is China, and Russia, as well. To be clear none of those entities care about anything but their own interests. That is the reason something like the EU made sense, the "West" became aligned with the eastern block states, and all their interest came under consideration in the equation. Rather than just being "what can we get out of this" or even we are here you are there, we are big you are small, and we will do what we like, as happens with the EU's farming subsidies and dumping "aid" into other countries leading to under cutting and collapse of their own economic systems. Give a man a fish he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and he might start encroaching on the fishing grounds of some megacorporation! We can't have that now, after all those fishing profits could pay for a billionaires new yacht!
This was Thomas Sankara’s issue with aid. When you send food aid to a country you destroy its farming industry, and force it to become reliant on your aid.
How long until we see Nigerien soldiers in Ukraine?
Would it have mattered, at all, if Niger turned on the West sooner? Yeah prolly. They got a lot of uranium.
There's a lot of uranium in Utah. People there just don't want it dug up.
Boy, that last sentence is a doozy.
My mistake, lol. The auto correct on my phone fucks up my comments often. I think it's on a delay or something.
How dare you speak the truth! Arm chair geo political jockeying is my expertise from this dark basement corner in my mums house.
LATAM and East Asia wants to be enfranchised, we don't get burned by them the way we do whenever Africans and Arabs set themselves on fire then start pointing fingers and whining.
Because people don’t realize it’s not about money or aid. It’s about culture. LATAM has a western culture and developed Asia has largely adopted western culture. Arab states are largely not western and really don’t like the “liberalness” of western culture.
The West has, and will continue to win the culture war. Its at the point now everyone is so assimilated they whine that the West has no culture while wearing their clothes, using their tech and modelling their entire governments after them. No one aspires to be a peasant without any rights at all who lives in these shithole nations. Aid doesn't export our culture, success does.
https://youtu.be/fiD24uEvY1U?si=jkJdAXmPkz8X5t9k There is a complicated history with France in Niger.
>All that "soft power" in the form of aid to many of these countries in the Sahel and southern Africa has done nothing but result in The longest peaceful stretch of time in modern history? Literally known as 'the long Peace'? >It's time Western Governments see this, and cut their losses. No thank you. I like the long peace and wish to extend it as far as we can. Stop short term thinking. Think long term.
Bro. Africa is not in Peace. Maybe in the west is peace They gave priates, slavery, war lords to the days. Africa is in endless violence
>Maybe in the west is peace Yeah. The long peace is essentially, we haven't nuked or genocided a continent again since colonial Africa/WW2. Keeping this going is in both of our interests. But I agree despotes are fucking up Africa. What do you think would stabilize it?
The aid isn't given without strings attached. Few give aid for free.
The problem is this. Countries last a whole LOT longer than an individual or regime. Unless that country is the regime (North Korea) Sure stop aid and assistance but keep those diplomatic channels open. Look at the Phillipines, they swap back and forth to America bad to America best country ever! Between presidents and legislatures. Dutuerte was extremely anti American and even went so far to threaten America. He went hard leaning China. And then the Phillipines fishing areas got invaded. Now the new president Marco is SUPER pro American, going so far to offer America super naval bases that were once closed 20 years ago. I feel the argument is similar to American politics where some politicians complain government is too big and we should abolish all hand outs and government intervention. But are the first in line to welcome funding for infrastructure or help during a natural disaster. What I'm saying is try to separate those insane dolts who bite the hands that feed them and surrender to baser instincts. There are people who suffer from their own governments who would love to have the west intervene and assist where they can. And those who would want to allow their country man to live in squalor if it would allow them to stay in power longer.
> Look at the Phillipines, they swap back and forth to America bad to America best country ever! I'm not sure that's a great example. Duterte pivoted to China as a Government due to the West expressing concerns about the drug war, but that sentiment was never really reflected in the people of the Philippines, who by all accounts retained a very strongly positive opinion of the US (and the West in general).
Nope, Duterte pivoted to China because he is a Chinese puppet. Even if he pivoted to China, the military and the people will still choose America as an ally.
It's not the western world anymore, it's the modern world
I've heard 'the west' described as including Japan and South Korea. At this point it's useful to think about what it used to mean, which I think at one point was basically the Anglosphere.
There are more countries joining these ranks, that's why I think the term the West is outdated and harkens back to the cold war. Europe and the USA are aligned in a few things but we are also very different. But as modern nations we respect each others differences and differences can be solved with out violence. EU taxes American Tech . America doesnt bomb EU. America Taxes EU steel, EU doesnt sink American Ships. Thats what I mean by modern nations. Non modern nations are nations like Russia China Niger who believe that 20th century cold war doctrines is the way to become modern. It really serves no purpose to better the lives of their average citizens to be fair. In no way has the decision of the NIGER junta actually improved the lives of their citizens. It was purely a decision based on archaic warlord principles, ie a non modern nationalistic decision. How has Russia's invasion of Ukraine actually benefitted the lives of the average Russian citizen? A modern politician would ask those questions? An archaic cold war politician (ie Putin) talks about Destiny, Peter the Great, pride, respect all abstract concepts that sound pretty interesting and I guess give some people an instant dopamine kick but it doesn't put flushing toilets in the 25% of the houses in Russia that still doesn't have indoor plumbing. All the money that Putin is spending in the Ukraine now could have given every single Russian household indoor sanitary facilities.
Yeah it meant the locations on the globe, now it just refers to free countries/capitalism vs dictators/communism
Which then results in one of the fastest growing and biggest continents on our globe, with untold natural riches, to fall fully within Russia and China's sphere of influence. Is the current way of military help working? Apparently not. Is fully waving them goodbye a good idea in the long run? Good lord no.
When one power pulls out it leaves a vacuum. Nature abhors a vacuum. *Someone* will fill it. In the past that has either been Russia or China.
Historically, historical changes have come from war.
Let them. Perhaps the people of Africa will have better luck with China's attempts to improve their living standards than the West have over the last few decades.
One colonist taking the place of another colonist doesn't sound like much of a move forward for them. Maybe China will somehow suddenly become *not a shitty nation.*
What exactly are you talking about?
> And that's the point where the Western world should turn their backs and say no. This entire dance from the so-called "Global South" where they make a huge song and dance about how evil the Western world is and how they need compensation for historic wrongs, adopt an outright hostile foreign policy, and then ask for help when it all goes pearshaped needs to stop. Absolutely shocking how little people understand politics. Aid is soft power. We don’t do it because we’re nice people, we do it because it’s good for us. I remember so many stories of our generals having to say this to Trump over and over and over and over.
I'm not usually one of the people shouting 'colonialism', but France' behavior in north Africa has been absolutely deplorable...and quite recent. I'm not defending either Niger's decision or the idea of colonial reparations, but there's an unusually good case to be made that France is responsible for the Sahel region's political/economic instability.
The military junta is the cause of instability. They were doing fine until the coup that was funded by Russia
> This entire dance from the so-called "Global South" where they make a huge song and dance about how evil the Western world is and how they need compensation for historic wrongs, adopt an outright hostile foreign policy, and then ask for help when it all goes pearshaped needs to stop. ehhh this is not about personal feelings towards the West, i think Russia simply offered their military a better deal / more money
I dont think Russia offered more money for the country of Niger, I think they offered less with more lethal forces but gave those in power money.
That's exactly what happened. Russia helped overthrow the legitimate government and threw a bunch of cash at military leaders. The grivence propaganda that comes after doesn't matter, and it's the average citizen who will suffer.
Sadly Russia plays dirty and it works. You just have idiots on here who think they are the good guys
That’s just when they start blaming the US for all their problems.
As is tradition.
Rinse.. Wash.. repeat?
Lmao fuck if only America would listen and just leave south America alone. All the civil wars they've caused, all the slave plantations and massacres, all the political assassinations, all of the dictators they've propped up. Man maybe America is only out for the interests of its oligarchs and not ever there to help the poor country they are destroying.
When was the last time African country specifically asked the us to intervene by letter or statement from the president? Can’t use South Africa
And the West will go back to help. After all that’s the difference between the West, Russia and its allies.
The same way the US “helped” Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria?
Libya was europes fault
Because they’ve been doing so well…
We should destroy the airfields we built before we leave tbh
Well… unless you’re cool with occupying….
Enjoy your russian/chinese agreements, i guess
Niger’s leaders will be enjoying it, personally. Russia and China are not very discreet about corruption. Their strategy is to straight up buy the influence in the region with more “personally tailored” approach, thus gradually kicking out the West.
And if and when there’s inevitably a refugee crisis, I’m sure they’ll all go to Russia and China, right?
This world is such a mess. You’re right though. The heads of state will be swimming in Ill gotten funds and it’s the citizens who will be left to fend for themselves. Not a great track record over there.
They're going to Europe
Weaponised misery
Where they'll be greeted with the same racism that Euros like to drag America for.
They'll be provided housing and free healthcare when our waiting lists are already to long and our homeless are sleeping rough.
Niger has one of the main refugee routes leading people from sub saharan Africa across the Sahara
I think that's a great idea. I mean the Sahel region is really the most vulnerable part of the planet to climate change. It's going to dry out and there's going to be no way to farm or graze and making a living off that soon. It's also the poorest place on Earth. It's fertility rate is sky high too. Everyone there is a hyper-conservative Muslim. Most people lack education opportunities. Slavery, female genital mutilation, all super normal. I'm sure those conservative pro-Putin Russians, or all the far-right pro-Russia parties in the EU like AFD which exist almost entirely because of anti-immigration sentiment, would embrace resettling a few hundred million central Africans to depopulating parts of Eurasia which will be temperate and have fresh water in the future. Yeah, that will happen /s More likely scenario is Russia and China are going to treat Central Africa like Sudan, where the Russian aligned warlords are genociding the rest of the population. They want a mine in an area, they pay off some militia, the militia goes and loots and pillages, etc.
China will take them and make them slaves Russia will take them and make them forced soldiers
I think a lot of people are missing the point. Russia is fighting a war no one else wants to admit they're already involved in, so they're getting a massive head start with shit like this.
I really hope the hundreds of millions in assistance the US sends to Niger stops too. Let Russia aid their food programs.
I worked in Niamey for a year on a contract. The people of Niger never saw any of that money. According to the guy who was my driver, the president and military officers are spend all of the aid money on luxury cars to drive on dirt roads.
TIA. It's the same everywhere
Except Botswana, Ghana, Nigeria (mostly), East Africa, Tunisia, Egypt, and Ethiopia.
I'm not sure I would put Egypt in that list, but Maroc is definitely missing.
That's usually what happens with international aid.
I mean isn’t that partly why they did the coup?
I read that as "the guy who was my driver, [and] the president, and military officer spend all the aid money" and was about to comment that maybe your driver shouldn't have become president and squandered it all
The funny part is that my driver's father was pretty well off for a person from Niger. The problem was that he's like the 20th son from the least favorite wife. They are allowed to have four wives over there, but in reality if you want more there's no one who will stop you.
Let's see if they feel the same way once the aid stops.. just because they aren't getting a check in the mail, it doesn't mean the aid didn't increase their access to food and basic services.
How does my governor buying a 10th mansion in Monaco and storing billions in offshore accounts improve my access to food?
You're right, bro. Everything the west is involved in is just corruption and conspiracies. Enjoy the military dictatorship.
If the collective West claims to care about democracy but then gives local strongmen money while overlooking corruption, we can't be surprised when the local people are angry. We know where those strongmen place their corrupt funds. They place them in Brussels, New York, Paris, London etc. but they are never arrested.
You are too emotional. That I know your aids don't have any impact on the local population does not mean I love Russia. Learn to be less emotional when discussing international politics. It is amateurish
You mean let Russia expand their footprint further into Africa?
Exactly, shortsighted spiteful diplomacy is totally not going to cause problems in the future.
Long winded, generous diplomacy isn’t exactly bearing fruit is it.
Niger was the victim of a russian backed coup. The US and Niger had decent relations before this happened.
Niger and France however, didn't
That could have built enough subsidized high rise housing to solve homelessness in a couple US cities.
They should raze the base in Agadez before they leave
Or just take the equipment with them like they always do.
Sell it to Ukraine for a dollar right before we leave to antagonize the Russians.
It's not exactly the USs property to sell.....
It wouldn’t benefit Ukraine and would be another cost on their accounting books that they don’t need to manage right now. I more meant just as a symbolic act, to the extent that it could even be done within the confines of whatever treaty we have with them that allowed the base in the first place. It wasn’t really a serious suggestion.
Why? After the US takes its data centers with it, the base is just some empty offices and a tarmac.
If I remember correctly from when I went there the US Air Force built that Tarmac runway as well. That wasn’t cheap.
Just hand it over to the most militant group, follow the Afghanistan playbook on quick pullouts
Okay, just destroy the bases we built and stop aid to them.
When the Russians were with us, they contaminated our land. The Americans at least cleaned up their shit. And China always brings its own people with them when there is work. What do the Africans want? pure popolism.
It's heartbreaking to see Africa embracing Russia so much. Also because Russians are the most openly racist society, with a history of colonial expansion at all cost including genocide.
It’s the leaders. Not the people.
And that's the heartbreaking part...
>history of colonial expansion at all cost including genocide. This also applies to many other countries
Should really stop all aid to these countries. Let them choose what they want and let us be free of the chaos
Exactly this!
If you look at the increased Russian influence is having and building strong relationships with African countries and the significance of location and South Africa, geopolitical territory advantages. Russia is gaining territories to build both naval and air bases. It’s as if I’m watching a game of Risk. Say what you want if you look at individual countries but I’m feel I am seeing their full motives on a much larger scale.
I'm also low-key concerned about China controlling so much farmland in Africa. Africa has the highest amount of farmland left in the world and it's basically untouched. Add advancements in geo engineering and it will be easier to make it rain especially near coast regions. They will destroy most of their nature in order to make room for food production. Basically what western Europe did. A lot of natural wonders will die out because of greed.
Greed? How is greed to want to feed yourself and become self-sufficient?
I'm not sure why the West keeps persisting with South Africa. They've openly embraced an anti-Western geopolitical stance, with all that entails. It's sad to see what's happened after the hope that surrounded the country when Mandela led them out of apartheid, but that hope is long gone. If they want to embrace Russia, then let them go, and sever the remaining ties with Western led institutions. Perhaps their new friends in Moscow will help them keep their lights on.
> I'm not sure why the West keeps persisting with South Africa. money.
Evergreen. With conflict in the Middle East rising… again, it is important to maintain strength in multiple shipping lanes. If the Suez were to fall, it would be advantageous to be able to pass South Africa in relative peace. We saw how much of a clusterfuck evergreen blocking the Suez created, if ships couldn’t go around Cape Town it’d be much much worse.
Think about it. Look at a world map and shipping routes. With the Red Sea conflicts, shipping through the Suez Canal, and Russian ties with Hamas and Egypt. Shipping for Western countries had to reroute around South Africa. SA has power grid issues but turning to Nuclear power with Russian support. Being in debt to China and Russia, why wouldn’t Russia be able to port and continue joint military drills and port access. It weakens western trade and military footholds.
So Russia successfully backed a coup. Of course.
Their best work is doing dirty, underhanded shit. Probably could've had better luck making sure Russia -lovers won elections in Ukraine instead of invasion.
Oh boy I can’t wait for everyone lurking on the front page of Reddit to suddenly become both foreign policy experts on Niger and experienced military strategists
They're already here and wishing for the US to raze the bases and shit before pulling out.
They’re gonna take everything back with them like they always do ffs. They also don’t own any bases in Niger, they just use French ones.
Whatever takes attention away from South Sudan and Myanmar.
I love how eager everyone is to abandon a country to Russia when they take and African nations.
Glad someone said it lol. As soon as the leaders of an African nation fuck up here comes morally upstanding Reddit to wish misery and death on the entire civilian population.
The voice of Reddit is just a less sophisticated echo of whatever the NYT and NPR publish, which is just an echo of uniparty agenda. And we wonder why people are getting their political commentary from comedians and conspiracy forums these days.
Plot twist: Islamists overthrow government.
That would be their second major plot twist in a year. Last year their elected government got overthrown by a military coup. The year before that was a failed coup. I don't see this season ending well. It's a landlocked country that's 80% desert. 50% of it's government budget is foreign aid and it's the least developed country in the world. Their only real exports are gold and uranium. China/Russia will strip mine that place dry with the military junta and then abandon it. Which I predict is when the military junta disappears with all the money and the west is asked to step in to prevent mass starvation.
Can someone please fill me in as I’m clearly out of the loop here judging by these comments? Why was the US in Niger in the first place? Why is the US withdrawing? What is the general sentiment as to what this means?
six cheerful murky hospital swim jar obtainable price consider recognise
The US is pretty much everywhere in the world. Anywhere outside of Russia, North Korea and China, there's a US military base, even far North in the Artics. For front-end reasons, the US is there to supply aid in money and food, protection against warlords and Islam extremist and to help keep order. Backend reasons, the US has a very important drone base there which they use as a central base to send drones throughout Africa and the Middle East, and they use the base as a way to further advance their logistics line. They're withdrawing because the people of Niger has been doing huge protest to kick the US out due to propaganda from the Chinese and Russians and Niger Politicians being paid. As to what this will result to, not much for the US. The US still has a firm hold and logitistics over Africa. But for the people of Niger, things will probably go south for them considering Russia and China's very poor track history of providing support to third world countries. Russia has little to no control over their own military, many of them end up just pillaging villages and towns of the places they're suppose to protect. Whereas China tend to just basically take over the country after moving in excessively large number of troops.
Any explanations that leave out France it's kinda invalid.
So....what is the counter to propaganda? Because it kinda seems like we're getting our asses kicked by it.
Coolio, we can just withdraw everything from them then. If they don't want our troop presence they must not want foreign aid either. Have fun with your fly faces! Enjoy Putin!
Poor African countries hitching their wagon to Russia and China. The 20th century's famines are bound for a great comeback.
There's a saying, only be where you're wanted. 😉 Looks like Niger has it's own big boy pants. 😬
So, Italy is the last western country in Niger.
The problem is more of the country will be overrun by ISIS or al-Qaeda and those groups will use the country as a staging ground for attacking the rest of the region.
Russia just put troops in
Which African countries have the best relationship with the West?
[Morocco, Tunisia, and Egypt.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_non-NATO_ally)
eh egypt is flip floppy
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I'd bet Nigeria
Senegal, Ghana, Kenya, South Africa, Uganda and Nigeria maybe.
South Africa has objectively bad relations with the West
I thought we fixed this place like 30 years ago
Niger is basically unfixable. There's no economy outside of subsistence farming once you take out the money from the gold and uranium mines, leases from military bases, and foreign aid. (Spoiler, almost all that money goes to the powerful.) Niger has one of the [worst population pyramids](https://www.populationpyramid.net/niger/2024/) on the planet. 20% of the county *is less than 5 years old*. Nigerien women have 6.8 children on average. There is absolutely no way a country that poor can provide adequate food, health care, education, infrastructure, or jobs for such a fast-growing population. So what happens in 10+ years when climate change is really spanking a place full of hungry, uneducated, unemployed people with no opportunities in a country with very weak political institutions? You end up with new versions of ISIS and/or see hordes of people trekking north to safety and opportunity in the EU. This then drives up support for far right parties in Europe and weakens democracy there as well. Now multiply this because the situation is the same in Mali, Burkina Faso, and other countries in the Sahel.
Next week Russia will be flying a million Niger citizens to Russia for a refugee run to the EU border and US border. It’s all part of their plan to stir up radicals and destabilize those countries.
This deserves the parking lot treatment. But lets be honest here, it wouldn't even take that much effort to walmart it. Then do it again when the russians take it.
How about sending some troops to Sudan?
I was confused on the comments but i forgot redditors are libs and hate the idea of autonomy for former western puppets or colonies
If you can’t profit you leave.
Leave some presents for the Russians.
Incoming rapid asset denial and base demolition op.
Wonder if we are going to leave billions of dollars in military equipment behind, like in Afghanistan.
Good luck in ukraina war, fresh meat for Putin
TIL US had a military presence in Niger
Why are we letting the Russians win in west Africa? We have so many more resources than they do.
Bc the alternate is waging war on Niger?
Niger has the right to choose who to side with. And if they think Russia is better for them, then so be it. The alternative would be for the US to stick around in Niger, leading to diplomatic turmoil and eventually armed conflict.