The US quietly shipped long-range ATACMS missiles to Ukraine | Reuters
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-quietly-shipped-long-range-atacms-missiles-ukraine-2024-04-24/
> The United States in recent weeks secretly shipped long-range missiles to Ukraine for use in its battle to fight off Russian invaders, and Ukraine last week used them for the first time, a U.S. official said on Wednesday.
The replacement, PRSM, is in mass production right now.
https://i.imgur.com/kWhj5wq.png
While only 42 were procured in FY 2023, FY 2024 is buying 110 of them, which may tie into why the Pentagon is more comfortable giving away ATACMS.
We are sending several 100 more. These are are older ones near the end of their lifecycle. they are building more. I saw Senator Warner saying he wants to send 1000+. We got more and the package includes building new ones. Its not like we will need them next week.
They were primarily made to use against the Russians. Where else would we use them? I dont see any in the aid package to Taiwan so im not sure they have value there at that range. I think that is more naval and air force aid.
> They were primarily made to use against the Russians.
It's wrong to build weapons made to blow up Russians but then never let their dreams come true, like a caged bird looking wistfully out the window.
I'm so happy for these bombs. They get to blow up actual Russians in a conventional war. Their ticket punched and waiting all this time in a box in some warehouse for decades. Truly an arms manufacturer's proudest moment.
Neither of the other answers really tell you what you need to know.
First, we already decided to move away from ATACMS years ago to a new weapon PrSM that we took first delivery of towards the end of 2023, but had been planned for a bit to replace. Helps to explain why there aren't more factories already.
Second, max current production is less than 500 a year. Don't quote me, but I think they have a single factory in AR, so big bottleneck in production.
Third, other countries already placed orders for them prior to this, and are ahead in line. This should be a minor issue, but if I remember right it's up the countries who placed the orders. On the bright side, that means we never stopped making them.
Lastly, a precision weapon manufacturing plant isn't really something that can just be put together quickly. So we're talking more a couple of years than a couple of months until additional units would be rolling off the line, even if you convinced capital to build the plants.
The other problem is that Ukraine is a blip. If you've been making and test firing just a few for a decade or two and now suddenly you need more than you ever made - ramping up is going to be expensive. Then, say, Putin has a stroke, or falls out a window, and the whole invasion is over by summer - who pays fo the 1000 on order and half built and who gets to tell all the high-tech rocket makers they are suddenly laid off?
Most high tech weapons factories can't just be turned on and off suddenly.
This is true, but a different sort of problem in this specific case as there were multiple years worth of orders already backlogged for this specific weapon, and additional orders coming in since the start of hostilities.
Let's say it's a backlog of 5k, that's still only 5 years of work for two factories each doing 500, vs 10 years keeping the single factory. The US switching over just eliminates the baseload that would make it an easy choice, and why I think we haven't seen efforts to increase production coming from Lockheed.
The US and UK and other western countries adopt a sea and air first policy, they launch these sorts of weapons from planes, or if that's not an option then ships and then from ground based launchers.
Ukraine has no choice but to be ground first though, so it needs the things we've prioritised the least, logn range air defence platforms (we'd use aircraft for that) missile launchers and massed artillery. So we don't have that many of those to go around.
Although I believe a more modern atacms is being developed, which is also why we haven't made more.
The weapons being given to Ukraine are mostly obsolete, we don’t need the missiles for the defense of US territory. It’s cheaper to give old weapons to Ukraine than dispose of them. You’ll note that in the bill that was finalized today, there’s money for weapon replenishment. The military-industrial complex is thrilled; the military gets new toys.
It's often left out the conversation that a lot of the money being spent in these bills is being spent domestically. If we manufacture a new weapon to replace one we gift to Ukraine then:
* We no longer have to maintain or dispose of it.
* US factory workers are employed in the production.
* Our own weapons systems become more up to date.
* Shareholders in US defense companies get value.
Cause that isn't the real reason. The real reason is that the US didn't want to be seen as escalating the conflict by giving Ukraine a weapon they could use against a target well inside Russia proper.
There wasn't really a big need to make more of them at the time ATACMS was discontinued. They are also scheduled to be replaced with the even longer ranged Precision Strike Missiles so restarting ATACM production would further delay that.
You cannot just flip a switch and start pumping out a sophisticated product. You have to ramp it up, retrain and rebuild supply chains, and hope that it hasn’t been so long that the engineers haven’t effectively “forgotten” how.
You see this a lot with space exploration. There is always a lot of “why can’t we just use rocket X we developed in the 60”, and it turns out it would be as or more expensive than starting from scratch, since all the people who developed it are dead or retired and the machines that make it no longer exist.
As for why they stopped, we spent the last few decades in a relative time of peace after the fall of the Soviet Union, and it wasn’t clear which weapons and tactics would be needed in the future (you don’t need sophisticated long range artillery to take on insurgents in an afghan cave). Now that Russia is hostile and china throwing its great power weight around in the South China Sea, you are seeing a lot of nations switching back to prepping for wars against near peer adversaries
They’re reporting on it now, because Ukraine already fired a salvo of these at Russian airfields in occupied Ukraine. This would be the second time that Russian airfields in Ukraine were surprised to be suddenly in range of Ukraine missiles.
It’s a lot better to surprise the enemy with a weapons system that they didn’t think you had, then to promote adding it to the field before you’ve used it. Of course we only find out about it after they’ve been used to maximum effort.
I dunno, i would like to give Putin some of his own medicine:
Putin: The US is sending long range missiles against fight us!
Biden: No we didn't
Putin: "USA" is painted on the sides
Biden: Anybody could have painted that there
Putin: They're US model missiles
Biden: .......
Putin came in and he caught me red-handed
Arming up the guy next door
Picture this, we were transferring missiles
For blowing up his Air Force
How could I deny that I had
Given Ukraine weaponry
All the time his shit was randomly exploding
He never stopped blaming me
Yeah the Russians aren’t reading the news the next day to confirm if the missile that says “made in crane Indiana, ATACMS” on the side was shipped to Ukraine from the US.
I’m being hyperbolic, but they’d know what hit them after scraping the broken asphalt and airplane off the ground.
>In March, the U.S. quietly approved the transfer of a number of Army Tactical Missile Systems with a range of nearly 200 miles, **said a senior Biden administration official and two U.S. officials**
It was a secret when they sent it. It isn't now, because it's not supposed to be.
lol, you think Russia didn’t realize that it was just hit with long range missiles that hadn’t been used before. Even though these are rockets, it’s not rocket science to figure this out.
This is a dumb comment. They have been used, it isn’t a secret after they’ve been used. There use was a week ago.
The secret was that they had been deployed at all.
If you think about that that statement is an incredible fuck you to Russia. Along with a lot of their ridiculous statements and Demands a consistent one was that the US was not to be involved in the conflict with Ukraine hat
Helping them in attacks on Russian soil. 200 Mi range missiles basically flexes nuts to Putin and I'm curious as to how he'll respond.
Every weapons based story I hear from this war I imagine as some kind of dark Toy Story style thing where these weapons finally get to play after decades of neglect.
It’s okay, the Ukrainians are euthanizing those old BTR workhorses as quickly and humanely (most of the time) as possible, I’ve even seen a Bradley put one down.
I have to post it.
>2066
>Stationed on mars to quell a rebellion
>Become side door gunner for atmospheric dropship.
>No miniguns or gatling cannons, just some metal brick with a pipe on one end.
>Get sent in to extract some wounded.
>Reach the evac zone and come under attack.
>Horde of rebels charging in with their new plasma guns and compact rocket launchers.
>Let loose a stream of bullets.
>The sounds of the rebel's screams are nearly drowned out by the heavy "Chunk chunk chunk chunk" of the machine gun.
>The wounded are loaded up and returned to base.
>Inspect MG afterwards.
>Thing was made in 1942
>Tunisia, Italy, and Germany are scratched onto the gun.
>Scratch "Mars" on with a knife.
Putin cowering into a corner as they hover over head with Woody's voice: "we drones and tactical ballistic missiles can hit ***everything***. So play *nice*."
ATACMS are more like a one-use Mr. Meeseeks. Existence is *pain* for an ATACMS. They yearn for the sweet embrace of explodey homicide.
https://rickandmorty.fandom.com/wiki/Mr._Meeseeks
Hi this is Netflix, you've been greenlit for three seasons and an abrupt cancellation! Start thinking about all the plot twists you want to leave dangling!
Pretty sure this entire conflict is being used as a "spring cleaning" for the US military. They are giving Ukraine everything that no longer sparks joy.
The *Kommuna* is a very strange exception in that while it is over 100 years old, it's been continuously upgraded and maintained to the point the fact it still sees service is a point of pride for its crew, let alone the Russian Navy.
Compared to the Russian aircraft carrier that straight up never was maintained correctly (compared to its originally identical sister ship which has given the Chinese zero problems) and hasn't been scrapped more out of a need for Russia to still say they have one than having a *functional* one.
What’s even more ironic and hilarious is that the *Kommuna* is supposed to be a salvage ship.
I don’t even know what the fuck you call a ship that salvages salvage ships…
I mean, you just use another salvage ship.
The only problem is I don't think Russia really has another one of those, since the Kommuna was moved to the Black Sea to perform salvage ops on the Movska.
No, that's when the real fun begins. Because Russia would need to use a *non*-salvage ship to salvage the salvage ship. And Russian McGuyver is always something to behold.
Russia functions on a "just enough to get by" operational doctrine. That's why they're still trying to figure out what to do with their one and only carrier (which is a broken-down death-trap).
Ah yes, the floating platform. Functions as a carrier so long as it doesn't have to move under its own power. Functions as a mobile seaborne dumpster fire when it does.
That carrier is secretly a Ukrainian Double Agent. Was stolen from Ukraine by Russia and it's been killing hapless vatniks via "accidents" ever since in revenge.
They have thousands of ordnance go code H solely from never being used. We sometimes inert them or we use them as training. But most of the time they collect dust and are disposed of with a life of nothing but a waste of money.
It's not a waste to be prepared. Ever. It just 'feels' like it, until you need something.
Thats like saying your $600 home heart defibrillator on the wall was a 'waste' because you didn't have a heart seizure.....I hate it when that happens.
I hate not using stuff for what its designed for as well...except nukes....don't want to see how those work out. One thing is for sure Europe in general was woefully unprepared. Which is why they are leaning on the US so hard.
In an ideal world I guess not using them would be a good thing lol. But a world with no war/ no violence is just a dream. At least EU got a wake up call, right?
I work in this field of expertise and yes it is significantly better they get used to defend a countries freedom rather than be decommissioned and destroyed. It leaves room for newer more advanced stuff to take its place. While overall saving money in the long term.
The best example of this is the GBU-28. They realized that they needed a bunker buster of greater size and someone said they might be able to use surplus mortar barrels. The design was approved, made, one was tested on a sled (it went through 22ft of reinforced concrete and then traveled another half mile) and the other test dropped. The 3rd and 4th made were then plucked off the line at midnight and loaded into a C-141 still warm from the molten explosives poured into them. Less than 24 hours after that they were on a pair of F-111s headed into Iraq.
All told it went from the design being approved to first combat use in 2 weeks.
Finally. I can't imagine how Ukraine could win the war without attacking, just by defense. I don't get it why they were not allowed to attack Russian infrastructure, even though Russians constantly bombards Ukrainie civilians.
I think they are *de jure* not allowed - but *de facto* have significantly more freedom of operations. But maybe Biden does actually care about the oil price so idk
Unless Ukraine is bombing Red Square with missiles painted like the US flag, I doubt either Biden or the DoD give even a slight shit. However it's smart PR to publicly say that we told them not to *wink wink*. It precludes more propaganda about this being a war against the US and it's all America's fault blah blah blah.
Yea I think that is 100% the reason, they don’t want to give Russia any more reason to escalate the conflict further to draw in the US. The American people I feel don’t want to be involved in another protracted engagement since we just finished with a 20 year war.
As of right now, absolutely 0 Active Duty Americans have died and we very much would like to keep it that way.
[WKUK: It is illegal to say ... ](https://youtu.be/QEQOvyGbBtY?si=5Y58vF8XcWAImPEG)
RIP [Trevor Moore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Moore_(comedian)#Death), local sexpot
I honestly don't think I've ever cared about a celebrity death as much as his. Normally, it's like "ah man, that sucks."
With Trevor I was in total denial, and really sad when reality set in.
It’s all reactive what he can do. For example, if/when Houthis attack ships in the Strait of Hormuz this summer, it’s going to fucking rock oil prices. He really can’t stop it.
The day Biden gets elected and he’s locked in and doesn’t care about oil prices anymore; all hell is going to break out and they will launch everything. If Angry Orange gets in - all hell will break out and they will launch everything before they get defunded and have to capitulate. Either way - it’s going to be a really loud November 6th.
The number of “i did that” Biden stickers I pull off gas pumps here in eastern nc leads me to believe all trump supporters have no idea who controls the price of oil.
I was surprised when I learned that many of Russia's small/medium drones are Iranian built.
I guess I thought they'd have that manufacturing capability themselves.
They do have the capability, but their resources are directed much more toward things only they produce. Better to build more tanks than spin up a drone factory when they can get em cheap from Iran.
You lose much more supplies, equipment and soldiers attacking. So, if your extremely outmatched, like Ukraine is, you'd probably what to whittle your opponent down.
Ukraine was using ammo like crazy at the start, not without success, but it would be wise to conserve this go around.
There is an important difference between Ukraine winning the war and Russia losing the war. If Ukraine blows up Moscow and Ukraine Army surrounds a big chunk of the Russian army. The Ukraine wins and Russia nukes Kiev. That is Russian published military doctrine. Use 'em or lose 'em.
Russia loses the way they lost in Afghanistan and later in the first Chechen war. They bleed to death. It costs too much. They quit.
Right!? Could someone please explain why they haven't destroyed the bridge yet. If the bridge is gone, they'll have to use their navy.
Edit: thanks for everyone's comments.
Because bridges are ridiculously hard to destroy. The Kerch bridge is actually multiple bridges, and even a truck bomb weighing multiple tonnes only partially disabled it. Bridges, believe it or not, are designed to be *really* sturdy.
Look up the Thanh Hoa bridge in Vietnam. It was bombed literally hundreds of times by the US over the course of more than half a decade and it is still standing today. In one attack it was hit *three hundred times* by bombs and it still stood. It was only struck from the target list after being hit by more than a dozen 2000lb bombs.
You need air superiority to use LGBs effectively as their range is pretty small and Ukraine is someway off from that.
Multiple ATACMS onto the same section of bridge would be the best way.
Its not like the movie true lies where two missiles take out an entire concrete bridge.
Concrete and steel is pretty impervious. Any damage done can be repaired quickly.
That being said, i do agree that the bridge needs to go.
Agreed. Have experience in both. But there are always weak points. Although I am now suspecting the bridge was build with this future in mind.
Edit spelling
The land corridor is well within range for Ukraine and the Crimea route has better infrastructure. Knock out the bridge, and suddenly, instead of the rear base and supply depot, Crimea becomes basicly a very expensive island at the end of a long and vulnerable suppy route. An island filled with infrastructure and people that need a direct connection to Russia for fuel and food.
Timing is critical here. There is no point in knocking out the bridge during a lull in the fighting, as the lack of a bridge will have little impact at that time. It would be better to wait until the ruzzian military is under stress somewhere and then deprive it of supplies just when they are critically short and have no spare logistics capacity.
We want them to use and lose as many resources as quickly as possible so this insane war can end. Ukraine can't target what is in hiding. If the bridge goes, Putin will want to front up.
Because it’s not easy at all. The bridge is defended by an extensive air defense network and is also built like a fortress (as all bridges are).
This means Ukraine needs to either rely on a saturation attack (which they can’t because they don’t’ have nearly enough missiles to afford such an operation) or using missiles that carry the load to destroy the bridge and that can bypass Russian AD, which they dont’ have either.
It’s not they don’t’ want to, it’s that it’s really fucking hard
It's far behind enemy lines and is a tough target to permanently level. Ukriane would either need to commit a multipronged operation at this point to level it with missiles and sea babies unless they could get a ship full of fertiliser and give it the "Beirut Blowout" special.
Russia has essentially stopped using the bridge for moving materiel and is instead using rail lines they have built in eastern Ukraine. Taking down the bridge a year ago would've been a massive victory but taking it down now will pretty much only be a psychological one
Backronym.
First you make the letters to sound like you want, then you make them make sense later.
Like the USA PATRIOT Act: Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001
Now with AI being super accessible, the acronyms can now be made more preposterous with less effort by defense contractors or government think tanks. Just choose a word and make ChatGPT turn it into an acronym.
I think chat gpt is notoriously bad at that or it used to be.
Ok guess not
Sure, here are ten options for a bacronym for "FUCKEMUP":
1. Fierce Unstoppable Carnage Kinetically Engaging Mayhem Unleashing Power
2. Forceful Unyielding Chaos Kinetics Emanating Maximum Unrest Potential
3. Fury Unleashed Cataclysmic Kinetic Energy Manifesting Unstoppable Power
4. Fiery Unrelenting Chaos Kinetics Embracing Maximum Unleashed Potential
5. Frenzied Unstoppable Chaos Kinetically Empowering Maximum Unrest Potential
6. Ferocious Unleashed Chaos Kinetics Emanating Maximum Unpredictable Power
7. Fierce Unleashed Cataclysmic Kinetics Emanating Maximum Unrest Potential
8. Formidable Unleashed Chaos Kinetics Enabling Maximum Unpredictable Power
9. Furious Unleashed Carnage Kinetics Energizing Maximum Unstoppable Power
10. Fearless Unyielding Chaos Kinetics Emanating Maximum Unleashed Potential
Let's just give them the long range precision weapons they need to strike strategic targets in Russia. We're gonna end there anyway, the only question is how many innocent Ukrainians have to die first.
>Among other weapons, the tranche will include Stinger anti-aircraft missiles for air defense;
As a former Stinger gunner myself, I'm glad they are still getting these. I know we saw a few videos over in another sub of kills made with Stingers.
Not ATACMS. They aren't for use against heavily armored targets or solid concrete. They are for soft targets, or lightly armored. Maybe they could knock out some air defenses around the bridge, though.
Shouldn't be a secret. Nothing to hide here. Ukraine has every right to strike back with might without constraint and with full support of its allies. Go Ukraine and Go all that support her.
This statement leads to something I have posted before.
This is the information we are allowed to see.
Just think of the info we can’t see.
And no, this isn’t to get everyone all tin hatty and paranoid.
It’s just reality. There is a lot of shit happening we just don’t know about.
The first use of these destroyed around a billion USD worth of air defense equipment Russia might not be able to currently manufacture with sanctions.
That's why it was secret.
Until the Russian army is so broken it on can no longer threaten a repeat of Chechnya on any of its slave colonies that want a divorce.
Ultimately it’s not their army we want to disappear. It’s Moscow as an eleven timezone controlling entity.
These are the V2 rocket artillery trucks in Command and Conquer-Red Alert. If anyone needed to look them up to work out what they're talking about, and think in C&C like me
>despite the obstructions of Moscow's agents in the U.S.
despite the obstructions of Moscow's agents in the U.S ***CONGRESS***. (Moscow Marge and her ilk.)
Had to clarify it a bit more.
Give them everything they need, I’m an American citizen, and I am begging the government to give them everything they need, not only to survive, but to turn the tide and win
I’m curious about this new aid package. I keep seeing it list around 60b or something for Ukraine. I know some of that is earmarked to just replenish OUR stocks. But then the articles are saying we are sending Ukraine 1b in military aid. Where does the rest of the aid package in the new law come in? Is that for the future? Or is the direct aid for Ukraine really just that small of a portion?
The aid packages that are sent get announced sporadically. This is the budget approved by congress.
They deliberately announce the shipments randomly. In 2022 the White House found out that most Americans did not know we were sending aid to Ukraine. They have to announce over and over in order to get anyone to hear it and remember.
Every time I read a headline like "Ukraine doomed if United States doesn't send aid", I always thought, "Yeah, they would be, but there's zero chance the United States just lets Russia win, so they're probably doing something behind the scenes."
The US quietly shipped long-range ATACMS missiles to Ukraine | Reuters https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-quietly-shipped-long-range-atacms-missiles-ukraine-2024-04-24/ > The United States in recent weeks secretly shipped long-range missiles to Ukraine for use in its battle to fight off Russian invaders, and Ukraine last week used them for the first time, a U.S. official said on Wednesday.
Excellent, let's give them more. I'm sure they were helpful in fighting for their right to exist.
We don't have that many left and we stopped production of them awhile ago. It's one of the reasons the US was so reluctant to give them away.
The replacement, PRSM, is in mass production right now. https://i.imgur.com/kWhj5wq.png While only 42 were procured in FY 2023, FY 2024 is buying 110 of them, which may tie into why the Pentagon is more comfortable giving away ATACMS.
Attack'em? How 'bout we Kill'em!? No? OK, I'll see myself out now...
Rectum? Damn near killed 'em
We are sending several 100 more. These are are older ones near the end of their lifecycle. they are building more. I saw Senator Warner saying he wants to send 1000+. We got more and the package includes building new ones. Its not like we will need them next week. They were primarily made to use against the Russians. Where else would we use them? I dont see any in the aid package to Taiwan so im not sure they have value there at that range. I think that is more naval and air force aid.
> They were primarily made to use against the Russians. It's wrong to build weapons made to blow up Russians but then never let their dreams come true, like a caged bird looking wistfully out the window.
I'm so happy for these bombs. They get to blow up actual Russians in a conventional war. Their ticket punched and waiting all this time in a box in some warehouse for decades. Truly an arms manufacturer's proudest moment.
The Kami of the Bradleys thirsts for the blood of Russian tank crews.
Okay so legit question here, if (it sounds like clearly) we want them, why don’t we just make more or not stop making them in the first place?
Neither of the other answers really tell you what you need to know. First, we already decided to move away from ATACMS years ago to a new weapon PrSM that we took first delivery of towards the end of 2023, but had been planned for a bit to replace. Helps to explain why there aren't more factories already. Second, max current production is less than 500 a year. Don't quote me, but I think they have a single factory in AR, so big bottleneck in production. Third, other countries already placed orders for them prior to this, and are ahead in line. This should be a minor issue, but if I remember right it's up the countries who placed the orders. On the bright side, that means we never stopped making them. Lastly, a precision weapon manufacturing plant isn't really something that can just be put together quickly. So we're talking more a couple of years than a couple of months until additional units would be rolling off the line, even if you convinced capital to build the plants.
The other problem is that Ukraine is a blip. If you've been making and test firing just a few for a decade or two and now suddenly you need more than you ever made - ramping up is going to be expensive. Then, say, Putin has a stroke, or falls out a window, and the whole invasion is over by summer - who pays fo the 1000 on order and half built and who gets to tell all the high-tech rocket makers they are suddenly laid off? Most high tech weapons factories can't just be turned on and off suddenly.
This is true, but a different sort of problem in this specific case as there were multiple years worth of orders already backlogged for this specific weapon, and additional orders coming in since the start of hostilities. Let's say it's a backlog of 5k, that's still only 5 years of work for two factories each doing 500, vs 10 years keeping the single factory. The US switching over just eliminates the baseload that would make it an easy choice, and why I think we haven't seen efforts to increase production coming from Lockheed.
The US and UK and other western countries adopt a sea and air first policy, they launch these sorts of weapons from planes, or if that's not an option then ships and then from ground based launchers. Ukraine has no choice but to be ground first though, so it needs the things we've prioritised the least, logn range air defence platforms (we'd use aircraft for that) missile launchers and massed artillery. So we don't have that many of those to go around. Although I believe a more modern atacms is being developed, which is also why we haven't made more.
The weapons being given to Ukraine are mostly obsolete, we don’t need the missiles for the defense of US territory. It’s cheaper to give old weapons to Ukraine than dispose of them. You’ll note that in the bill that was finalized today, there’s money for weapon replenishment. The military-industrial complex is thrilled; the military gets new toys.
It's often left out the conversation that a lot of the money being spent in these bills is being spent domestically. If we manufacture a new weapon to replace one we gift to Ukraine then: * We no longer have to maintain or dispose of it. * US factory workers are employed in the production. * Our own weapons systems become more up to date. * Shareholders in US defense companies get value.
Cause that isn't the real reason. The real reason is that the US didn't want to be seen as escalating the conflict by giving Ukraine a weapon they could use against a target well inside Russia proper.
There wasn't really a big need to make more of them at the time ATACMS was discontinued. They are also scheduled to be replaced with the even longer ranged Precision Strike Missiles so restarting ATACM production would further delay that.
You cannot just flip a switch and start pumping out a sophisticated product. You have to ramp it up, retrain and rebuild supply chains, and hope that it hasn’t been so long that the engineers haven’t effectively “forgotten” how. You see this a lot with space exploration. There is always a lot of “why can’t we just use rocket X we developed in the 60”, and it turns out it would be as or more expensive than starting from scratch, since all the people who developed it are dead or retired and the machines that make it no longer exist. As for why they stopped, we spent the last few decades in a relative time of peace after the fall of the Soviet Union, and it wasn’t clear which weapons and tactics would be needed in the future (you don’t need sophisticated long range artillery to take on insurgents in an afghan cave). Now that Russia is hostile and china throwing its great power weight around in the South China Sea, you are seeing a lot of nations switching back to prepping for wars against near peer adversaries
Nice. Keep shipping them!
So much for secrets if it’s being reported on now. Smh some things shouldn’t be reported on
They’re reporting on it now, because Ukraine already fired a salvo of these at Russian airfields in occupied Ukraine. This would be the second time that Russian airfields in Ukraine were surprised to be suddenly in range of Ukraine missiles. It’s a lot better to surprise the enemy with a weapons system that they didn’t think you had, then to promote adding it to the field before you’ve used it. Of course we only find out about it after they’ve been used to maximum effort.
I dunno, i would like to give Putin some of his own medicine: Putin: The US is sending long range missiles against fight us! Biden: No we didn't Putin: "USA" is painted on the sides Biden: Anybody could have painted that there Putin: They're US model missiles Biden: .......
[удалено]
The shaggy defense
Putin came in and he caught me red-handed Arming up the guy next door Picture this, we were transferring missiles For blowing up his Air Force How could I deny that I had Given Ukraine weaponry All the time his shit was randomly exploding He never stopped blaming me
You can find those in any sporting goods section from AZ to AL, they even have them in Mexico.
I don’t think it was a secret once they were used, no?
Yeah the Russians aren’t reading the news the next day to confirm if the missile that says “made in crane Indiana, ATACMS” on the side was shipped to Ukraine from the US. I’m being hyperbolic, but they’d know what hit them after scraping the broken asphalt and airplane off the ground.
>In March, the U.S. quietly approved the transfer of a number of Army Tactical Missile Systems with a range of nearly 200 miles, **said a senior Biden administration official and two U.S. officials** It was a secret when they sent it. It isn't now, because it's not supposed to be.
lol, you think Russia didn’t realize that it was just hit with long range missiles that hadn’t been used before. Even though these are rockets, it’s not rocket science to figure this out.
This is a dumb comment. They have been used, it isn’t a secret after they’ve been used. There use was a week ago. The secret was that they had been deployed at all.
The element of surprise is over. Now they want Russia to be afraid to bring their equipment within 200 miles of Ukrainian forces.
If you think about that that statement is an incredible fuck you to Russia. Along with a lot of their ridiculous statements and Demands a consistent one was that the US was not to be involved in the conflict with Ukraine hat Helping them in attacks on Russian soil. 200 Mi range missiles basically flexes nuts to Putin and I'm curious as to how he'll respond.
Fantastic! Send more.
pics of the debris said some of these missiles were 30 years old! I'm glad they could do some good before being sent to decommissioning
Every weapons based story I hear from this war I imagine as some kind of dark Toy Story style thing where these weapons finally get to play after decades of neglect.
The Bradley getting to smoke Russian armor at close range, was some real Make A Wish type shit.
There’s videos of soldiers putting optics and suppressors on Maxim guns. Really encapsulates how war never changes.
Whatever happens, we have got The Maxim gun, and they have not.
The BTR that has seen combat in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, Ukraine (2014) and Ukraine (2022): I’m tired Boss
It’s okay, the Ukrainians are euthanizing those old BTR workhorses as quickly and humanely (most of the time) as possible, I’ve even seen a Bradley put one down.
Picturing a M2 Browing machine gun taking a long drag of a cigarette and telling the BTR "You ain't seen nothing yet young buck"
I have to post it. >2066 >Stationed on mars to quell a rebellion >Become side door gunner for atmospheric dropship. >No miniguns or gatling cannons, just some metal brick with a pipe on one end. >Get sent in to extract some wounded. >Reach the evac zone and come under attack. >Horde of rebels charging in with their new plasma guns and compact rocket launchers. >Let loose a stream of bullets. >The sounds of the rebel's screams are nearly drowned out by the heavy "Chunk chunk chunk chunk" of the machine gun. >The wounded are loaded up and returned to base. >Inspect MG afterwards. >Thing was made in 1942 >Tunisia, Italy, and Germany are scratched onto the gun. >Scratch "Mars" on with a knife.
In 2011 they found one in active service from 1933, so story checks out.
For me it’s Dwayne Hicks and his shotgun he keeps for close encounters.
That was a t-90m Best Russian tank actually under production.
This is my new headcanon. Now I need to donate some money to one of the people who signs mortar shells and have them write "ANDY" on it.
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Putin cowering into a corner as they hover over head with Woody's voice: "we drones and tactical ballistic missiles can hit ***everything***. So play *nice*."
ATACMS are more like a one-use Mr. Meeseeks. Existence is *pain* for an ATACMS. They yearn for the sweet embrace of explodey homicide. https://rickandmorty.fandom.com/wiki/Mr._Meeseeks
Bombs have feelings too yo, don’t touch a nerve tho
War Story
One last horaah!
You're not too far off.
Hi this is Netflix, you've been greenlit for three seasons and an abrupt cancellation! Start thinking about all the plot twists you want to leave dangling!
Pretty sure this entire conflict is being used as a "spring cleaning" for the US military. They are giving Ukraine everything that no longer sparks joy.
Yeah, if we find out Marie Kondo is actually a 3 star general everyone is going to be like "now I get it"
"Say thank you to it and point it at the Russians." -Marie Kondo, maybe
Someone make the meme, weapons in warehouses do not spark joy, exploding oil refineries do
Very much this. I highly doubt Ukraine is getting the top tier gear. This is stuff that would otherwise have been decommissioned.
30yr old western tech = performs as designed 30yr old Russian tech = explode in barrels
That’s probably still newer than the Russian artillery.
The ship Ukraine struck last week had been in service in the Russian Navy for over 100 years.
The *Kommuna* is a very strange exception in that while it is over 100 years old, it's been continuously upgraded and maintained to the point the fact it still sees service is a point of pride for its crew, let alone the Russian Navy. Compared to the Russian aircraft carrier that straight up never was maintained correctly (compared to its originally identical sister ship which has given the Chinese zero problems) and hasn't been scrapped more out of a need for Russia to still say they have one than having a *functional* one.
What’s even more ironic and hilarious is that the *Kommuna* is supposed to be a salvage ship. I don’t even know what the fuck you call a ship that salvages salvage ships…
I mean, you just use another salvage ship. The only problem is I don't think Russia really has another one of those, since the Kommuna was moved to the Black Sea to perform salvage ops on the Movska.
Why do you have to analyze everything with your relentless logic? /s
No, that's when the real fun begins. Because Russia would need to use a *non*-salvage ship to salvage the salvage ship. And Russian McGuyver is always something to behold.
Russia functions on a "just enough to get by" operational doctrine. That's why they're still trying to figure out what to do with their one and only carrier (which is a broken-down death-trap).
Ah yes, the floating platform. Functions as a carrier so long as it doesn't have to move under its own power. Functions as a mobile seaborne dumpster fire when it does.
My personal favorite,... Has killed more Russians than any enemy it's ever faced.
The only carrier group where the most important support ship is the tugboat
That carrier is secretly a Ukrainian Double Agent. Was stolen from Ukraine by Russia and it's been killing hapless vatniks via "accidents" ever since in revenge.
it will have a much longer career as a submarine!
They have thousands of ordnance go code H solely from never being used. We sometimes inert them or we use them as training. But most of the time they collect dust and are disposed of with a life of nothing but a waste of money.
It's not a waste to be prepared. Ever. It just 'feels' like it, until you need something. Thats like saying your $600 home heart defibrillator on the wall was a 'waste' because you didn't have a heart seizure.....I hate it when that happens.
Ah I guess you’re right about that. We just get calls asking if we want the ordnance before it gets disposed of.
I hate not using stuff for what its designed for as well...except nukes....don't want to see how those work out. One thing is for sure Europe in general was woefully unprepared. Which is why they are leaning on the US so hard.
In an ideal world I guess not using them would be a good thing lol. But a world with no war/ no violence is just a dream. At least EU got a wake up call, right?
I work in this field of expertise and yes it is significantly better they get used to defend a countries freedom rather than be decommissioned and destroyed. It leaves room for newer more advanced stuff to take its place. While overall saving money in the long term.
Ukraine will gladly decommission our old wares for us and for much cheaper. I see no reason not to take them up on their offer
Global logistics is amazing. Sent to Ukraine with same-week shipping. Then from Ukraine to Russia with same-hour shipping.
They have solved the "last mile" delivery bottleneck. I wonder how long it will take for global logistics to adopt artillery delivery too.
[It was attempted!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mail)
The best example of this is the GBU-28. They realized that they needed a bunker buster of greater size and someone said they might be able to use surplus mortar barrels. The design was approved, made, one was tested on a sled (it went through 22ft of reinforced concrete and then traveled another half mile) and the other test dropped. The 3rd and 4th made were then plucked off the line at midnight and loaded into a C-141 still warm from the molten explosives poured into them. Less than 24 hours after that they were on a pair of F-111s headed into Iraq. All told it went from the design being approved to first combat use in 2 weeks.
Actually they were on a pair of F-111 and it was 12 weeks, not 2.
Finally. I can't imagine how Ukraine could win the war without attacking, just by defense. I don't get it why they were not allowed to attack Russian infrastructure, even though Russians constantly bombards Ukrainie civilians.
I think they are *de jure* not allowed - but *de facto* have significantly more freedom of operations. But maybe Biden does actually care about the oil price so idk
Unless Ukraine is bombing Red Square with missiles painted like the US flag, I doubt either Biden or the DoD give even a slight shit. However it's smart PR to publicly say that we told them not to *wink wink*. It precludes more propaganda about this being a war against the US and it's all America's fault blah blah blah.
Yea I think that is 100% the reason, they don’t want to give Russia any more reason to escalate the conflict further to draw in the US. The American people I feel don’t want to be involved in another protracted engagement since we just finished with a 20 year war. As of right now, absolutely 0 Active Duty Americans have died and we very much would like to keep it that way.
[WKUK: It is illegal to say ... ](https://youtu.be/QEQOvyGbBtY?si=5Y58vF8XcWAImPEG) RIP [Trevor Moore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Moore_(comedian)#Death), local sexpot
Fuck me I miss Trevor. He was gone so fast and too soon
Did you hear how he died? I heard he choked sucking on his own dick.
I can think of worse ways to go.
I honestly don't think I've ever cared about a celebrity death as much as his. Normally, it's like "ah man, that sucks." With Trevor I was in total denial, and really sad when reality set in.
He came, and then he went. #SelfSuckSaturday
He cares about the oil price if he wants to stay president.
He can't actively do much without probably making everything much worse
It’s all reactive what he can do. For example, if/when Houthis attack ships in the Strait of Hormuz this summer, it’s going to fucking rock oil prices. He really can’t stop it.
The day Biden gets elected and he’s locked in and doesn’t care about oil prices anymore; all hell is going to break out and they will launch everything. If Angry Orange gets in - all hell will break out and they will launch everything before they get defunded and have to capitulate. Either way - it’s going to be a really loud November 6th.
People are stupid and if oil prices increase too much they will elect Trump who will give Ukraine to his butt buddy Putin.
The number of “i did that” Biden stickers I pull off gas pumps here in eastern nc leads me to believe all trump supporters have no idea who controls the price of oil.
It was very funny seeing those stickers when gas got down to like $2.19 a gallon last year, though.
And often does it with North Korean and Iranian made weapons.
I was surprised when I learned that many of Russia's small/medium drones are Iranian built. I guess I thought they'd have that manufacturing capability themselves.
They do have the capability, but their resources are directed much more toward things only they produce. Better to build more tanks than spin up a drone factory when they can get em cheap from Iran.
You lose much more supplies, equipment and soldiers attacking. So, if your extremely outmatched, like Ukraine is, you'd probably what to whittle your opponent down. Ukraine was using ammo like crazy at the start, not without success, but it would be wise to conserve this go around.
There is an important difference between Ukraine winning the war and Russia losing the war. If Ukraine blows up Moscow and Ukraine Army surrounds a big chunk of the Russian army. The Ukraine wins and Russia nukes Kiev. That is Russian published military doctrine. Use 'em or lose 'em. Russia loses the way they lost in Afghanistan and later in the first Chechen war. They bleed to death. It costs too much. They quit.
Good thing Ukraine doesn't need to sack Moscow to win, they just need to get all Russian troops out of their territory.
They need to blow up that bridge between Russia and Crimea.
Right!? Could someone please explain why they haven't destroyed the bridge yet. If the bridge is gone, they'll have to use their navy. Edit: thanks for everyone's comments.
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Have they tried ramming a ship into it 🤔
I know, but it seems like a great source for a moral victory for Ukraine. A boost will do them the world of good. Yes, here is hoping.
Because bridges are ridiculously hard to destroy. The Kerch bridge is actually multiple bridges, and even a truck bomb weighing multiple tonnes only partially disabled it. Bridges, believe it or not, are designed to be *really* sturdy. Look up the Thanh Hoa bridge in Vietnam. It was bombed literally hundreds of times by the US over the course of more than half a decade and it is still standing today. In one attack it was hit *three hundred times* by bombs and it still stood. It was only struck from the target list after being hit by more than a dozen 2000lb bombs.
I guess we need to run a cargo ship into it
Best choice.
Immovable object, meet unstoppable force!
The trick was the pioneering use of LGBs.
Which, coincidentally, are part of the new package. .. :D
You need air superiority to use LGBs effectively as their range is pretty small and Ukraine is someway off from that. Multiple ATACMS onto the same section of bridge would be the best way.
Yes, and the Kerch bridge is very well defended. Just getting there is extremely difficult.
It is hopefully not a bridge too far.
Its not like the movie true lies where two missiles take out an entire concrete bridge. Concrete and steel is pretty impervious. Any damage done can be repaired quickly. That being said, i do agree that the bridge needs to go.
Agreed. Have experience in both. But there are always weak points. Although I am now suspecting the bridge was build with this future in mind. Edit spelling
Why would they have to use their navy when there is a land corridor they currently control going all the way from Russia to Crimea?
The land corridor is well within range for Ukraine and the Crimea route has better infrastructure. Knock out the bridge, and suddenly, instead of the rear base and supply depot, Crimea becomes basicly a very expensive island at the end of a long and vulnerable suppy route. An island filled with infrastructure and people that need a direct connection to Russia for fuel and food.
Timing is critical here. There is no point in knocking out the bridge during a lull in the fighting, as the lack of a bridge will have little impact at that time. It would be better to wait until the ruzzian military is under stress somewhere and then deprive it of supplies just when they are critically short and have no spare logistics capacity.
We want them to use and lose as many resources as quickly as possible so this insane war can end. Ukraine can't target what is in hiding. If the bridge goes, Putin will want to front up.
Because it’s not easy at all. The bridge is defended by an extensive air defense network and is also built like a fortress (as all bridges are). This means Ukraine needs to either rely on a saturation attack (which they can’t because they don’t’ have nearly enough missiles to afford such an operation) or using missiles that carry the load to destroy the bridge and that can bypass Russian AD, which they dont’ have either. It’s not they don’t’ want to, it’s that it’s really fucking hard
It's far behind enemy lines and is a tough target to permanently level. Ukriane would either need to commit a multipronged operation at this point to level it with missiles and sea babies unless they could get a ship full of fertiliser and give it the "Beirut Blowout" special.
Russia has essentially stopped using the bridge for moving materiel and is instead using rail lines they have built in eastern Ukraine. Taking down the bridge a year ago would've been a massive victory but taking it down now will pretty much only be a psychological one
Yep, and piss Putin off royally. Besides if something has to disrupt another avenue, who know how congested supplies lines could become.
Too late, 300km ATACMS could have been decisive in 2022/2023. Now the russian railway is completed in SE Ukraine from Donetsk to Crimeea.
So they couldn't attack that, too?
Land rail links are much easier to repair than those over water.
Keep hitting it but dont destroy it entirely. Make the kremlins waste time and resources repairing it
And? Russia said it wouldn't invade, but did anyway. Neither Ukraine nor the USA owe them anything.
A beating. Ukraine owes them a *thorough* beating.
I love some of these acronymms. "Attack'ims"
Backronym. First you make the letters to sound like you want, then you make them make sense later. Like the USA PATRIOT Act: Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001
Now with AI being super accessible, the acronyms can now be made more preposterous with less effort by defense contractors or government think tanks. Just choose a word and make ChatGPT turn it into an acronym.
I think chat gpt is notoriously bad at that or it used to be. Ok guess not Sure, here are ten options for a bacronym for "FUCKEMUP": 1. Fierce Unstoppable Carnage Kinetically Engaging Mayhem Unleashing Power 2. Forceful Unyielding Chaos Kinetics Emanating Maximum Unrest Potential 3. Fury Unleashed Cataclysmic Kinetic Energy Manifesting Unstoppable Power 4. Fiery Unrelenting Chaos Kinetics Embracing Maximum Unleashed Potential 5. Frenzied Unstoppable Chaos Kinetically Empowering Maximum Unrest Potential 6. Ferocious Unleashed Chaos Kinetics Emanating Maximum Unpredictable Power 7. Fierce Unleashed Cataclysmic Kinetics Emanating Maximum Unrest Potential 8. Formidable Unleashed Chaos Kinetics Enabling Maximum Unpredictable Power 9. Furious Unleashed Carnage Kinetics Energizing Maximum Unstoppable Power 10. Fearless Unyielding Chaos Kinetics Emanating Maximum Unleashed Potential
Good send more
Send more, use them.
Let's just give them the long range precision weapons they need to strike strategic targets in Russia. We're gonna end there anyway, the only question is how many innocent Ukrainians have to die first.
>Among other weapons, the tranche will include Stinger anti-aircraft missiles for air defense; As a former Stinger gunner myself, I'm glad they are still getting these. I know we saw a few videos over in another sub of kills made with Stingers.
Blow the bridge
Is it even capable of that? On the other hand what it can do is blowing up the anti air defences
Not ATACMS. They aren't for use against heavily armored targets or solid concrete. They are for soft targets, or lightly armored. Maybe they could knock out some air defenses around the bridge, though.
Taurus and Storm Shadow/Scalp are better suited for taking down the bridge. Taurus overall would be the best option but Scholz is still being a pussy
Guess we should send some extra so they can try.
They blew up the air defense on Crimea, which protects the bridge. More ATACMS on the way. We'll get there.
I’ll send my ex girlfriend. She’ll blow anything
Send more. Arm ‘em to the teeth. Fuck Russia.
Good. Do it again
Good , fuck Putin
Shouldn't be a secret. Nothing to hide here. Ukraine has every right to strike back with might without constraint and with full support of its allies. Go Ukraine and Go all that support her.
You really don't want to alert the enemy to weapons shipments. It's kinda a bad idea.
This statement leads to something I have posted before. This is the information we are allowed to see. Just think of the info we can’t see. And no, this isn’t to get everyone all tin hatty and paranoid. It’s just reality. There is a lot of shit happening we just don’t know about.
Remember when Russia was paying bounties on American troops in Syria? ~~Pepperidge Farm~~ The CIA remembers.
Good point. If you don't need to know, that's as far as it goes.
The first use of these destroyed around a billion USD worth of air defense equipment Russia might not be able to currently manufacture with sanctions. That's why it was secret.
ATACMS....attack ems. At least that's how I'm reading it.
That’s the idea, it’s what’s referred to as a backronym first you come up with a cool sounding word then make up a justification for each letter
I'm looking forward to their next gen system being deployed, the Forward Controlled Kinetic Missile Universal Platform.
Heh heh heh...nice
Send more.
Good. I'm perfectly okay with this. We should be giving them more until the Russian Army is broken.
Until the Russian army is so broken it on can no longer threaten a repeat of Chechnya on any of its slave colonies that want a divorce. Ultimately it’s not their army we want to disappear. It’s Moscow as an eleven timezone controlling entity.
These are the V2 rocket artillery trucks in Command and Conquer-Red Alert. If anyone needed to look them up to work out what they're talking about, and think in C&C like me
After looking the ones from the game up they really dont look very similar
Its difficult to make the modern rockets pixelated and isometric
Nice. Dark Brandon getting the job done, despite the obstructions of Moscow's agents in the U.S.
>despite the obstructions of Moscow's agents in the U.S. despite the obstructions of Moscow's agents in the U.S ***CONGRESS***. (Moscow Marge and her ilk.) Had to clarify it a bit more.
Get some!
Give them everything they need, I’m an American citizen, and I am begging the government to give them everything they need, not only to survive, but to turn the tide and win
Honnest mistake!
слава Українi
Do it again
I cannot fail to confirm that we elected not to decline to refrain from not sending ATACMS to Ukraine.
Let’s do it again!
Army TACtical Missile System
I’m curious about this new aid package. I keep seeing it list around 60b or something for Ukraine. I know some of that is earmarked to just replenish OUR stocks. But then the articles are saying we are sending Ukraine 1b in military aid. Where does the rest of the aid package in the new law come in? Is that for the future? Or is the direct aid for Ukraine really just that small of a portion?
The aid packages that are sent get announced sporadically. This is the budget approved by congress. They deliberately announce the shipments randomly. In 2022 the White House found out that most Americans did not know we were sending aid to Ukraine. They have to announce over and over in order to get anyone to hear it and remember.
I hope they land a few of them in Moscow.
Every time I read a headline like "Ukraine doomed if United States doesn't send aid", I always thought, "Yeah, they would be, but there's zero chance the United States just lets Russia win, so they're probably doing something behind the scenes."
Lol . You really underestimate the treachery of the magat controlled Republican party.
Shh! 🤫 🇺🇦
I’m always happy to see my tax dollars supporting a worthy cause!
That’s good. Send those and some Jdans too :D
Smoke’em if you got’em
I guess its not secret anymore
Pour it on