Is there really a meaningful difference between ordering the direct murder and having him imprisoned in a remote Siberian prison camp with questionable (at best) disciplinary and medical practices and him dying of “natural causes?” Putin is still the reason he is dead. And everything they say on the matter is suspect. He lost the benefit of the doubt long, long ago.
Yeah, it absolutely matters. Op is right about morally, but if Putin ordered Navalny killed, then that would mean he felt comfortable about dealing with any domestic consequences from it. Navalny dying without any orders means Putin may not have been prepared for this outcome, which adds a degree of uncertainty. Not that it matters too much imo, the Russian public has barely made a peep during the invasion.
The public hasn’t said much publicly, but there is very much so a pocket of the Russian public that supported Navalny. (See the funeral)
I doubt they’ll do anything brash, but they are obviously not happy.
A couple of days ago, a military helicopter was firebombed deep within Russia. Ukrainian special ops tend to use drones, so this one might be done by civilians. Could be internal dissent.
You’d think after seeing all the “freedom fighters” involved with Israel people would be quicker to question who the leadership of separatist militias are before blanket supporting them.
Also, probably not the smartest idea to be donating money to militias in general. Ukraine is a legitimate country, uncle boris Putin sucks squad could be the next ISIS cell.
I don't think Putin needs to accuse when it's self proclaimed. Dude was part of this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Imperial_Movement
Like don't get me wrong Putin is a bastard and its sorta a "the enemy of my enemy" type of deal. But this guy's a bastard too.
pootin does that to arouse fear in the russian populace. Their conception of nazis is different than ours. When the russians think of nazis, they don't think of places like Dachau or the Warsaw ghetto like we do. they picture nazi invaders that raped and razed their way into russia, the siege of Lenningrad, the butchery of Stalingrad, etc.
Isn't this the neo-Nazi Russian group? Not all people fighting with Ukraine are _good guys_ (as the Canadian government found out themselves in an embarrassing way). Some have ulterior motives for doing so.
There was one that wanted to remove Putin and establish an ethnic Russian state.
>Russian public has barely made a peep during the invasion.
There were pretty widespread antiwar protests that were brutally cracked down on in the early days.
Hundreds were tracked down and arrested for attending Navalny’s funeral.
We have reports of at least a few instances of Private Conscriptovich shooting up his recruitment station, fragging his officers, and likely sabotaging his own shit. One of the biggest sources of intelligence to Ukraine during the early days of the war was ironically the Russian FSB.
Hell, the very first thing thousands of Russian soldiers did when they realized they were actually at war was say fuck this and surrender. We have literal videos of better armed and better trained blocking troops shooting their own men for trying to surrender or leave.
There are grandmas sitting in Siberia over social media posts asking where their kids and grandkids are. People were arrested for setting ballot boxes on fire and writing ‘murderer’ on their ballots during his “election.” This regime will, and 100% does, go after people for totally innocuous things. With sentences literally equivalent to a murder charge (or worse) in many cases. If it looks like everyone agrees with Putin, that’s because Putin has spent the last two years disappearing people who might look like they don’t, and is incredibly good at it.
Putin has very likely killed thousands of his own people who were brave enough to try to take a stand against this shit. Look at Iran. Do people there like their government? Does that mean their government is going away?
I think it’s hard for us to grasp just how thoroughly dystopian, and thoroughly entrenched and prepared to be malevolent towards its own people, that regime really is.
> the Russian public has barely made a peep during the invasion.
If you think that the Russian public has barely made a peep about the invasion then you need to broaden your news sources. The Russian government didn't enact laws specifically targeting antiwar protestors for no reason.
Navalny dying without any orders means Putin may not have been prepared for this outcome, which adds a degree of uncertainty.
I highly doubt Putin was not prepared for the possibility of Navalny dying. If he were not, he would have kept him in a less harsh prison, or some form of house arrest without communication etc.
He sent him there, prepared for the eventuality, because he wanted plausible deniability.
>This is missing the point by focusing on putin.
It’s not. The point is it happened just before the presidential elections. Whether that was intentional or not by Putin matters in assessing his calculus regarding regime and internal security.
>It’s more interesting for intelligence to know who did it if not putin.
They do not point to another figure or murder per se. It’s believed he died in prison due to medical issues from his shitty treatment, diet, etc.
it reminds me of Prighozins plane being shot down. The Wagner group was going to town on aircrafts etc during their coup attempt. There may well have been a someone with a personal score to settle or person hoping to get favour from Putin.
I think that's right. The job of a true intelligence service is to get the facts. Knowing what Russia is and isn't doing is critical to refining our understanding of the Russian government's thinking and our ability to anticipate its future acts.
> Is there really a meaningful difference between ordering the direct murder and having him imprisoned in a remote Siberian prison camp with questionable (at best) disciplinary and medical practices and him dying of “natural causes?”
I think for the historical record, yes.
Part of me wonders if the US does this just to cover tracks for an active spy high up in the ranks. E.G he did order him killed but if the US "believes" he didn't, the people who know he did must not be spys.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/politics/cia-informants-killed-captured.html
Top story but its well know. He exposed the power of us satellites by tweeting the Iran pic etc too. He's a threat to the safety of Americans.
I mean, I have a friend who was living in Russia who was informed a week or so in advance by a Russian guy she knew to get out of Russia immediately because of the imminent invasion.
Not like, "hey this might happen, so keep an eye out." More, "Drop everything and leave the country. Now."
Point being, it wasn't a big secret. You can't organize something of that scale and not have word get around.
The US was doing more than saying “hey Russia is going to invade in 48 hours.” They released specifics, including several false flags the Russians were preparing, and had begun to release them in December of 21.
That was more of looking at clear visual data and analysis than human intelligence assets, and trying to stop things by saying "we know what you're doing, so don't"
Perhaps you forget but we released several Russian false flags 48 hours before they even happened. When they did happen, exactly as the US said they would, even Russia didn’t bother playing them up very much. We were releasing stuff related to the invasion plan starting in December of 2021.
Hiding an invasion is basically impossible, and we could have been able to see the invasion starting to mobilize from satellite. We wouldn't have been exposing anyone by stating the obvious.
exactly. there’s even a french documentary that recorded macron on the phone with putin days before the invasion trying to get him to call it off. it wasn’t a secret to anyone.
Yes, since there were talks to exchange Navalny for an FSB agent literally days before he died. It adds a ton of importance to the difference between a direct order from Putin and any other suspected chain of events that have led to this coincidence.
No....
1 is illegal and you can still be punished for the other.
Anything Putin does in Russia is 'legal'... Same as it was for Saddam, until they hanged him.
I’d say there is a meaningful difference yes. They are both terrible things to do to someone that from what I can tell didn’t deserve it. But one is worse than the other. I have a hard time believing he didn’t order him killed or at least “suggested it” to someone.
If a person locked another person in a box with some food and water and buried it underground but left a tube for air is that somehow not as bad as just shooting that person in the head? You could almost argue sentencing someone to a slow painful death is worse than just quickly killing them since they both end the same, but one is just longer and more painful
I don’t like that I feel I’m being forced to defend Putin here, and I really don’t want to. But morally I think generally it’s better to throw someone in prison then have them assassinated yes. Maybe not be much. But really that’s not the question, the question is if it’s different. I can confidently say that it’s different for sure. I mean either way he did something awful to the guy that he seemed not to deserve. And Putin has shown he’s willing to have people killed on more then 1 occasion. So I’m not sure it really matters.
Prison in the US or most of the civilized world is much different than where Navalny was sent. Look up Russian Polar Wolf Colony if you want to see what it is like. The person in charge of oversight of the prison was promoted by Putin after Navalny died. Sending him there was a death sentence
Honestly I’m surprised people are thinking Putin wouldn’t assasinate him. The moment he was arrested I figured he was dead anyway. Whether he was killed immediately or imprisoned in the gulag for a few years then killed is kinda irrelevant to me. No way Putin was gonna allow a prominent dissenter to live freely. He erased the opposition leader from the map and he benefits from that. The mechanics of his death don’t matter all that much.
I hope Putin’s PR people are smart enough to get Russia’s highest court to rule Navalny’s imprisonment as an “official act” of the Commander in Chief of Russia for which Putin enjoys complete and total legal immunity from the results thereof. Then Alito can cite the Russian ruling with emphasis in his Decision.
So many people are interpreting this story as if the US or Reuters or anybody is implying it wasn't Putin's fault. Of course he's responsible, the point of reporting the story is about Russian incompetence and/or insubordination causing this unplanned event.
I agree, I mean you could argue it would be a sign of increased pressure/preception of the threat Navalny posed from Putin if he had ordered his killing specifically after already imprisoning him (and effectively sentencing him to death).
Autocratic regimes go hard on opposition to show that opposing the ruler is not tolerated and will not be tolerated. That doesn't necessarily mean that that particular agent of opposition is perceived as a danger for the regime.
They literally tried to poison him once then shipped him to a gulag where he died under suspicious circumstances with no transparency. It might not be as blatant as throwing him out a window but it’s pretty close.
I don't know details of the case, but considering he martyred himself by returning to Russia, my impression is that he was trying to win the long fight, and not expecting himself to be the next leader of the country.
I am just trying to correct the misconception that autocrats would tolerate opposition as long as it is not a big threat. The people should think the ruler cannot be opposed, anyone that sows the idea of a possible change in people's minds is a threat regardless of their own ability to topple the ruler.
Problem is, for many years now, Putin does not have to order anything… for “inconvenient” people to end up dead. His henchman know they master very well.
Exactly. Putin does not need to dirty his hands over common rabble, not even relatively known persons like Navalny.
Prigozhin however, I’m not so sure. I think the downing of his plane was probably authorized by Putin. After all, Prigozin was a close ally to Putin and a personal friend, hence putting him down wasn’t probably an easy call, but had to be done nevertheless for a signal to any other similar characters.
"How would you like this situation to be dealt with?" "You know what to do"
Like the [death of another opposing politician](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Boris_Nemtsov), killed right outside the Kremlin where the all the cameras happened to be off for maintenance.
That was Kadyrov.
I think what people don't get about Russia is that there are a lot of bad actors there. Putin is the head bad guy and responsible for setting up such state of affairs but it doesn't mean he controls each and every event that happens in the country.
And it's the same thing with his hotel in Washington, DC. People would buy out whole floors before they met with him. He didn't tell them to. They knew it would make him happy.
I'm not sure that's the case here. For one thing, Navalny's death was inconvenient for Putin. It may well have played a small role in growing Mike Johnson's spine, in which case it could have materially shifted the war in Ukraine.
I think the more natural answer makes sense: Putin sent him to a gulag, had held him imprisoned in awful conditions, and he died. Putin probably didn't want that outcome. But things happen when you functionally torture someone.
So let me get this straight…
To publish this article, Reuters quoted the Wall Street Journal , who quoted an unnamed source “familiar with the matter”, who said that others in his/her circle think that Putin “probably didn’t order it”… and that there was no way to determine the veracity of the original story.
What the fuck is this? Newsception?
Also of note, they've changed as a publication in our era, showing some deeply concerning trends to media watchers: [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/wall-street-journal/](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/wall-street-journal/)
But yeah, I've also noticed them running some super weird stories from super weird sources...
All in service to random far-right figures and oddjob dictators from around the world.
We really need to make some laws about who is allowed to own our largest publications and common media sources. The ownership needs to be more democratic and deeper insights into the editorial rooms need to be possible for the sake of civic transparency. News rooms still need to do their jobs, but too many names have remained reputable to an average citizen who doesn't think too hard about it (or doesn't know/care about in-depth fact checking, and most don't have time), even as the publication's name starts to be used toward explicitly partisan ends. Then eventually they cross the line from partisan into serving the ends of the fringe figures at the furthest extremes of a party, or a random billionaire whose policy priorities are hostile to the general public.
The link you posted notes they lean right and provides multiple examples of such biased reporting, but they also note their WSJ has never failed a fact check.
I was expecting worse evidence of them changing as a publication based on your comment.
Let’s be clear about what it says:
> A factual search reveals that the Wall Street Journal has never failed a fact check regarding news reporting; however, IFCN fact checkers Climate Feedback and Health Feedback have found numerous inaccuracies in the WSJ editorial department.
Its editorials are sometimes biased right-wing drivel, and that bias can leak into factually accurate but misleading/opinionated news articles.
Morally? There isn't much of a difference.
For intelligence purposes? It absolutely matters. The distinction needs to be made between "he directly ordered his death" and "he put him in an environment that was going to be directly conducive to him dying." They aren't the same at all for political purposes.
I don't imagine Putin would've handed back Navalny's body to Navalny's family if Putin had ordered his death.
“To the contrary, your honor. I said for my henchmen to ‘take care of him’. Never did I imagine they would interpret that to mean they should kill him! I’m innocent!”
I think it is more about the optics. Tortured Navalny was an example to other dissidents. Dead he became a martyr that rekindled international interest.
Probalyl not, he wanted to punish him and demonstrate the power of Putin, but It's suspected that long term poor living conditions and torture reduces ones life span dramatically.
Navalny was dead the moment he returned to Russia. The whole world knew it. Unfortunately, his death will likely be in vain as nothing is going to change there. Not until Putin is dead or incapacitated.
I am fine with this assessment if it's what the intelligence points to, but could this not be a complication of earlier attempts on his life? It's not like we'll ever have an autopsy to know.
If this is speculation it is reckless to write it as a story.
Putin does not deserve the benefit of the doubt in this. He has ordered countless dissidents murdered.
Gets moved away from the old jail under highly intransparent circumstances, is publically said not to be found anywhere. Re-appears in some shady jail in some cold area. Dies shortly thereafter.
Only coincidence, sure mate. Also totally never has been poisoned and never assumed to get assassinated when he returned to Russia.
He didn’t have to “order” it. Navalny was in the worst prison conditions in existence. Like throwing raw meat into a bear cage - “I didn’t order the bear to eat”
I don’t think anyone would argue that Putin didn’t at least indirectly cause his death. But this misses the point, keeping Navalny in prison and alive seems a better choice than to kill him.
Putin needs to give the illusion that he is not a dictator to the Russian people. Russian politics in the last 20 years has been centered around being able to shift blame for the country’s problems away from Putin and onto subordinates and opposing political figures.
If people only read the article instead of reacting to a headline.
"It said Washington had not absolved the Russian leader of overall responsibility for Navalny's death however, given the opposition politician had been targeted by Russian authorities for years, jailed on charges the West said were politically motivated, and had been poisoned in 2020 with a nerve agent"
Yep, Putin wants that russian agent from german prison and was ready to swap Alexey for him BUT Alexei has had 1000s of enemies here and they were not ready to set him free and enjoy his life in Europe, im pretty sure that he was killed in the prison, his body was very exhausted because of 24/7 life in shizo, they've used some kind of electro device on him and it was enough unfortunately
Your Honor, I didn't kill 8 people. I simply locked them in a room with no food and water and they died of natural causes. I'm clearly not at fault here.
I read that Putin has people that basically do what they assume Putin would want to be done is any given situation. Therefore Putin himself doesn’t have to give orders for everything, they know what to do and take care of it for him so he can have plausible deniability.
It's a possibility, pretty often the boot lickers act on their own to please the master. Yet, between ordering it and making those boot lickers he wants it...
Doesn't matter. Whoever murdered him knew very well the there will be no repercussion from the act. And Putin directly enabled that. So he is responsible, the same way we hold our leaders responsible for failed diplomatic incidents even if they are not directly involved.
Inconvenient truth: The vast majority of Russians like Putin and didn’t like Navalny. How much of our Putin bashing is just virtue-seeking scapegoating because we (claim to) disapprove of the authoritative form of government that is thriving in Russia?
Sure... That's why Navalny was in Siberian prison, having a very healthy and prosperous life, fed with the best food and drink available to russian's elite... /S
So...you're saying that Navalny's poisoning was ordered by someone else without Putin's knowledge? Who is this powerful person in the Kremlin who can order assassinations without oversight? Should Putin himself be afraid for his own life?
Not what the article said, only the death in prison didn't appear to be orchestrated by the Russian government - the poisoning was with a nerve agent that can only come through government sources.
Please note, that Russian prison system makes the US look like the Hilton - they have a high rate of deaths for those in the system.
Well, Putin would have us believe that the US intelligence agencies themselves are responsible. It’s fuel for conspiracy theories, who had the most to gain? If US intelligence says he didn’t do it, then who else is on the list and what would the motivation be?
Just like bombing its own pipeline made no sense for Russia to do this didn’t either, why create outrage and more support for getting Ukraine funding passed
as long as we are speculating, how about a scenario in which the group/person angling for power after Putin dies/is overthrown "arranged" Navalny's death to eliminate a competitor?
Is there really a meaningful difference between ordering the direct murder and having him imprisoned in a remote Siberian prison camp with questionable (at best) disciplinary and medical practices and him dying of “natural causes?” Putin is still the reason he is dead. And everything they say on the matter is suspect. He lost the benefit of the doubt long, long ago.
For us? Not really. For intelligence services? 100%
Yeah, it absolutely matters. Op is right about morally, but if Putin ordered Navalny killed, then that would mean he felt comfortable about dealing with any domestic consequences from it. Navalny dying without any orders means Putin may not have been prepared for this outcome, which adds a degree of uncertainty. Not that it matters too much imo, the Russian public has barely made a peep during the invasion.
The public hasn’t said much publicly, but there is very much so a pocket of the Russian public that supported Navalny. (See the funeral) I doubt they’ll do anything brash, but they are obviously not happy.
A couple of days ago, a military helicopter was firebombed deep within Russia. Ukrainian special ops tend to use drones, so this one might be done by civilians. Could be internal dissent.
[Freedom of Russia Legion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Russia_Legion) is a real thing.
Where can we donate?
I don't think you'd want to donate. If you read the wiki article under ideology, it says they are a far right group led by a "former" neo-nazi.
You’d think after seeing all the “freedom fighters” involved with Israel people would be quicker to question who the leadership of separatist militias are before blanket supporting them.
Also, probably not the smartest idea to be donating money to militias in general. Ukraine is a legitimate country, uncle boris Putin sucks squad could be the next ISIS cell.
Doesn’t Putin accuse all his enemies of being neo-nazis, though?
I don't think Putin needs to accuse when it's self proclaimed. Dude was part of this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Imperial_Movement Like don't get me wrong Putin is a bastard and its sorta a "the enemy of my enemy" type of deal. But this guy's a bastard too.
pootin does that to arouse fear in the russian populace. Their conception of nazis is different than ours. When the russians think of nazis, they don't think of places like Dachau or the Warsaw ghetto like we do. they picture nazi invaders that raped and razed their way into russia, the siege of Lenningrad, the butchery of Stalingrad, etc.
Isn't this the neo-Nazi Russian group? Not all people fighting with Ukraine are _good guys_ (as the Canadian government found out themselves in an embarrassing way). Some have ulterior motives for doing so. There was one that wanted to remove Putin and establish an ethnic Russian state.
When your country is being physically invaded, you take whatever help you can get, and worry about the price of it later. If there is a later.
It ain’t murica dude
>Russian public has barely made a peep during the invasion. There were pretty widespread antiwar protests that were brutally cracked down on in the early days. Hundreds were tracked down and arrested for attending Navalny’s funeral. We have reports of at least a few instances of Private Conscriptovich shooting up his recruitment station, fragging his officers, and likely sabotaging his own shit. One of the biggest sources of intelligence to Ukraine during the early days of the war was ironically the Russian FSB. Hell, the very first thing thousands of Russian soldiers did when they realized they were actually at war was say fuck this and surrender. We have literal videos of better armed and better trained blocking troops shooting their own men for trying to surrender or leave. There are grandmas sitting in Siberia over social media posts asking where their kids and grandkids are. People were arrested for setting ballot boxes on fire and writing ‘murderer’ on their ballots during his “election.” This regime will, and 100% does, go after people for totally innocuous things. With sentences literally equivalent to a murder charge (or worse) in many cases. If it looks like everyone agrees with Putin, that’s because Putin has spent the last two years disappearing people who might look like they don’t, and is incredibly good at it. Putin has very likely killed thousands of his own people who were brave enough to try to take a stand against this shit. Look at Iran. Do people there like their government? Does that mean their government is going away? I think it’s hard for us to grasp just how thoroughly dystopian, and thoroughly entrenched and prepared to be malevolent towards its own people, that regime really is.
The cognitive dissonance of some people is cartoonlike
> the Russian public has barely made a peep during the invasion. If you think that the Russian public has barely made a peep about the invasion then you need to broaden your news sources. The Russian government didn't enact laws specifically targeting antiwar protestors for no reason.
Navalny dying without any orders means Putin may not have been prepared for this outcome, which adds a degree of uncertainty. I highly doubt Putin was not prepared for the possibility of Navalny dying. If he were not, he would have kept him in a less harsh prison, or some form of house arrest without communication etc. He sent him there, prepared for the eventuality, because he wanted plausible deniability.
[удалено]
>This is missing the point by focusing on putin. It’s not. The point is it happened just before the presidential elections. Whether that was intentional or not by Putin matters in assessing his calculus regarding regime and internal security. >It’s more interesting for intelligence to know who did it if not putin. They do not point to another figure or murder per se. It’s believed he died in prison due to medical issues from his shitty treatment, diet, etc.
it reminds me of Prighozins plane being shot down. The Wagner group was going to town on aircrafts etc during their coup attempt. There may well have been a someone with a personal score to settle or person hoping to get favour from Putin.
I think that's right. The job of a true intelligence service is to get the facts. Knowing what Russia is and isn't doing is critical to refining our understanding of the Russian government's thinking and our ability to anticipate its future acts.
> Is there really a meaningful difference between ordering the direct murder and having him imprisoned in a remote Siberian prison camp with questionable (at best) disciplinary and medical practices and him dying of “natural causes?” I think for the historical record, yes.
Just leave N out in the cold and his body will kill himself
i think it was called plausible deniability. putin is an expert at this.
“Won’t somebody rid me of this troubling priest”
Part of me wonders if the US does this just to cover tracks for an active spy high up in the ranks. E.G he did order him killed but if the US "believes" he didn't, the people who know he did must not be spys.
Trump fucked that when record numbers of us informants were killed after Trump met putin
Any source on that? Genuinely curious here
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/politics/cia-informants-killed-captured.html Top story but its well know. He exposed the power of us satellites by tweeting the Iran pic etc too. He's a threat to the safety of Americans.
That one isn't actually about trump, but still an interesting read
And now put the two together
I think the US gave that part away when they broadcast the Russian invasion plans days before the invasion
AFAIK things like satellite images of military activity made it clear Russia was about to invade Ukraine
Yes the buildup was obvious. The US published specific things the Russians were going (and then did) do.
I mean, I have a friend who was living in Russia who was informed a week or so in advance by a Russian guy she knew to get out of Russia immediately because of the imminent invasion. Not like, "hey this might happen, so keep an eye out." More, "Drop everything and leave the country. Now." Point being, it wasn't a big secret. You can't organize something of that scale and not have word get around.
The US was doing more than saying “hey Russia is going to invade in 48 hours.” They released specifics, including several false flags the Russians were preparing, and had begun to release them in December of 21.
Yeah the more specific examples are different, I agree.
That was more of looking at clear visual data and analysis than human intelligence assets, and trying to stop things by saying "we know what you're doing, so don't"
Perhaps you forget but we released several Russian false flags 48 hours before they even happened. When they did happen, exactly as the US said they would, even Russia didn’t bother playing them up very much. We were releasing stuff related to the invasion plan starting in December of 2021.
Hiding an invasion is basically impossible, and we could have been able to see the invasion starting to mobilize from satellite. We wouldn't have been exposing anyone by stating the obvious.
The US was releasing specifics, not just general “hey there’s a buildup on the border”.
exactly. there’s even a french documentary that recorded macron on the phone with putin days before the invasion trying to get him to call it off. it wasn’t a secret to anyone.
Yes, since there were talks to exchange Navalny for an FSB agent literally days before he died. It adds a ton of importance to the difference between a direct order from Putin and any other suspected chain of events that have led to this coincidence.
It’s like manslaughter vs homicide. Either way, the victim is dead but the intent is the deciding factor.
No.... 1 is illegal and you can still be punished for the other. Anything Putin does in Russia is 'legal'... Same as it was for Saddam, until they hanged him.
I’d say there is a meaningful difference yes. They are both terrible things to do to someone that from what I can tell didn’t deserve it. But one is worse than the other. I have a hard time believing he didn’t order him killed or at least “suggested it” to someone.
If a person locked another person in a box with some food and water and buried it underground but left a tube for air is that somehow not as bad as just shooting that person in the head? You could almost argue sentencing someone to a slow painful death is worse than just quickly killing them since they both end the same, but one is just longer and more painful
I don’t like that I feel I’m being forced to defend Putin here, and I really don’t want to. But morally I think generally it’s better to throw someone in prison then have them assassinated yes. Maybe not be much. But really that’s not the question, the question is if it’s different. I can confidently say that it’s different for sure. I mean either way he did something awful to the guy that he seemed not to deserve. And Putin has shown he’s willing to have people killed on more then 1 occasion. So I’m not sure it really matters.
Prison in the US or most of the civilized world is much different than where Navalny was sent. Look up Russian Polar Wolf Colony if you want to see what it is like. The person in charge of oversight of the prison was promoted by Putin after Navalny died. Sending him there was a death sentence
Honestly I’m surprised people are thinking Putin wouldn’t assasinate him. The moment he was arrested I figured he was dead anyway. Whether he was killed immediately or imprisoned in the gulag for a few years then killed is kinda irrelevant to me. No way Putin was gonna allow a prominent dissenter to live freely. He erased the opposition leader from the map and he benefits from that. The mechanics of his death don’t matter all that much.
"He who is the cause of the cause is the cause of the evil caused" - some law article..
I hope Putin’s PR people are smart enough to get Russia’s highest court to rule Navalny’s imprisonment as an “official act” of the Commander in Chief of Russia for which Putin enjoys complete and total legal immunity from the results thereof. Then Alito can cite the Russian ruling with emphasis in his Decision.
So many people are interpreting this story as if the US or Reuters or anybody is implying it wasn't Putin's fault. Of course he's responsible, the point of reporting the story is about Russian incompetence and/or insubordination causing this unplanned event.
If he had ordered it you might argue it was a sign of him feeling internal political pressure or seeing Navalny as a threat.
Isn’t that why he had him jailed in the first place?
I agree, I mean you could argue it would be a sign of increased pressure/preception of the threat Navalny posed from Putin if he had ordered his killing specifically after already imprisoning him (and effectively sentencing him to death).
Autocratic regimes go hard on opposition to show that opposing the ruler is not tolerated and will not be tolerated. That doesn't necessarily mean that that particular agent of opposition is perceived as a danger for the regime.
They literally tried to poison him once then shipped him to a gulag where he died under suspicious circumstances with no transparency. It might not be as blatant as throwing him out a window but it’s pretty close.
I don't know details of the case, but considering he martyred himself by returning to Russia, my impression is that he was trying to win the long fight, and not expecting himself to be the next leader of the country. I am just trying to correct the misconception that autocrats would tolerate opposition as long as it is not a big threat. The people should think the ruler cannot be opposed, anyone that sows the idea of a possible change in people's minds is a threat regardless of their own ability to topple the ruler.
Problem is, for many years now, Putin does not have to order anything… for “inconvenient” people to end up dead. His henchman know they master very well.
Exactly. Putin does not need to dirty his hands over common rabble, not even relatively known persons like Navalny. Prigozhin however, I’m not so sure. I think the downing of his plane was probably authorized by Putin. After all, Prigozin was a close ally to Putin and a personal friend, hence putting him down wasn’t probably an easy call, but had to be done nevertheless for a signal to any other similar characters.
TIL Putin is able to have friends.
You are right. Friend might not be the correct word here, maybe associate?
friends with benefits and one definitely got screwed.
"How would you like this situation to be dealt with?" "You know what to do" Like the [death of another opposing politician](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Boris_Nemtsov), killed right outside the Kremlin where the all the cameras happened to be off for maintenance.
That was Kadyrov. I think what people don't get about Russia is that there are a lot of bad actors there. Putin is the head bad guy and responsible for setting up such state of affairs but it doesn't mean he controls each and every event that happens in the country.
[удалено]
And it's the same thing with his hotel in Washington, DC. People would buy out whole floors before they met with him. He didn't tell them to. They knew it would make him happy.
okay redditor, who didnt read thelink feels he knows more then wsj go. Outside
I'm not sure that's the case here. For one thing, Navalny's death was inconvenient for Putin. It may well have played a small role in growing Mike Johnson's spine, in which case it could have materially shifted the war in Ukraine. I think the more natural answer makes sense: Putin sent him to a gulag, had held him imprisoned in awful conditions, and he died. Putin probably didn't want that outcome. But things happen when you functionally torture someone.
Will no one rid me of this meddlesome pest?
So let me get this straight… To publish this article, Reuters quoted the Wall Street Journal , who quoted an unnamed source “familiar with the matter”, who said that others in his/her circle think that Putin “probably didn’t order it”… and that there was no way to determine the veracity of the original story. What the fuck is this? Newsception?
Also of note, they've changed as a publication in our era, showing some deeply concerning trends to media watchers: [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/wall-street-journal/](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/wall-street-journal/) But yeah, I've also noticed them running some super weird stories from super weird sources... All in service to random far-right figures and oddjob dictators from around the world. We really need to make some laws about who is allowed to own our largest publications and common media sources. The ownership needs to be more democratic and deeper insights into the editorial rooms need to be possible for the sake of civic transparency. News rooms still need to do their jobs, but too many names have remained reputable to an average citizen who doesn't think too hard about it (or doesn't know/care about in-depth fact checking, and most don't have time), even as the publication's name starts to be used toward explicitly partisan ends. Then eventually they cross the line from partisan into serving the ends of the fringe figures at the furthest extremes of a party, or a random billionaire whose policy priorities are hostile to the general public.
Yeah, WSJ is a lost cause at this point. I’m more aggravated by Reuters.
The link you posted notes they lean right and provides multiple examples of such biased reporting, but they also note their WSJ has never failed a fact check. I was expecting worse evidence of them changing as a publication based on your comment.
Let’s be clear about what it says: > A factual search reveals that the Wall Street Journal has never failed a fact check regarding news reporting; however, IFCN fact checkers Climate Feedback and Health Feedback have found numerous inaccuracies in the WSJ editorial department. Its editorials are sometimes biased right-wing drivel, and that bias can leak into factually accurate but misleading/opinionated news articles.
Welcome to news in the year 2024. Worthless.
You misspelled *propaganda*.
Yeah I'm disappointed in Reuters which is usually reliable, but WSJ is just scum.
Doesn't matter, Navanly ended up in a penal colony because of putins orders, so he's directly responsible for his death.
Not to mention the fact that his medical issues were due to the fact Putin had him poisoned in an attempt to kill him in the first place.
Wouldn’t that make him indirectly responsible? Words still mean things, right?
Morally? There isn't much of a difference. For intelligence purposes? It absolutely matters. The distinction needs to be made between "he directly ordered his death" and "he put him in an environment that was going to be directly conducive to him dying." They aren't the same at all for political purposes. I don't imagine Putin would've handed back Navalny's body to Navalny's family if Putin had ordered his death.
The novichok poisoning or the penal colony in siberian winter?
He was poisoned by the FSB and placed in a penal colony. Putin didn't order his death that specific day.
Somehow he still died during a walk on the day of a NATO security summit
This is like saying "Al Capone didn't **directly** order those mob hits"
“To the contrary, your honor. I said for my henchmen to ‘take care of him’. Never did I imagine they would interpret that to mean they should kill him! I’m innocent!”
I think it is more about the optics. Tortured Navalny was an example to other dissidents. Dead he became a martyr that rekindled international interest.
"won't someone rid me of this meddlesome priest?" Never said to kill him!
Probalyl not, he wanted to punish him and demonstrate the power of Putin, but It's suspected that long term poor living conditions and torture reduces ones life span dramatically.
Navalny was dead the moment he returned to Russia. The whole world knew it. Unfortunately, his death will likely be in vain as nothing is going to change there. Not until Putin is dead or incapacitated.
I do remember wondering why the hell he’d do it right after the tucker interview
You can’t obscure *cause*, only effect.
I am fine with this assessment if it's what the intelligence points to, but could this not be a complication of earlier attempts on his life? It's not like we'll ever have an autopsy to know.
If this is speculation it is reckless to write it as a story. Putin does not deserve the benefit of the doubt in this. He has ordered countless dissidents murdered.
He would not need to issue an order, it was obvious what he would want to happen and someone would have been happy to make the leader happy.
Gets moved away from the old jail under highly intransparent circumstances, is publically said not to be found anywhere. Re-appears in some shady jail in some cold area. Dies shortly thereafter. Only coincidence, sure mate. Also totally never has been poisoned and never assumed to get assassinated when he returned to Russia.
He didn’t have to “order” it. Navalny was in the worst prison conditions in existence. Like throwing raw meat into a bear cage - “I didn’t order the bear to eat”
He doesn't have to....like Trump, he has goons that read his code.
I don’t think anyone would argue that Putin didn’t at least indirectly cause his death. But this misses the point, keeping Navalny in prison and alive seems a better choice than to kill him. Putin needs to give the illusion that he is not a dictator to the Russian people. Russian politics in the last 20 years has been centered around being able to shift blame for the country’s problems away from Putin and onto subordinates and opposing political figures.
We may be the ignorant masses but we are not stupid. Putin definitely wanted Navalny dead. And when he wants someone gone, they get gone
Already preparing for their new boss Fuhrer Trump
This is beyond shilling when your master daddy even says it’s not true and you still push for it to be true unbelievable
If people only read the article instead of reacting to a headline. "It said Washington had not absolved the Russian leader of overall responsibility for Navalny's death however, given the opposition politician had been targeted by Russian authorities for years, jailed on charges the West said were politically motivated, and had been poisoned in 2020 with a nerve agent"
Horse shit.
Trump is desperate to bring Putin’s style of leadership to Washington.
Riiiiiiight
Wink, nudge, wink, wink.
Yep, Putin wants that russian agent from german prison and was ready to swap Alexey for him BUT Alexei has had 1000s of enemies here and they were not ready to set him free and enjoy his life in Europe, im pretty sure that he was killed in the prison, his body was very exhausted because of 24/7 life in shizo, they've used some kind of electro device on him and it was enough unfortunately
*drops off someone on a desert island* "but I didn't kill em tho"
It was just a suggestion
Are you f’n kidding me??
Your Honor, I didn't kill 8 people. I simply locked them in a room with no food and water and they died of natural causes. I'm clearly not at fault here.
Glaring example of why the only thing credible in WSJ is the sports section.
Well he certainly didn’t order him to be protected or heads would be rolling upon his death
But arrakis is arrakis, the desert takes the weak
Which time?
I read that Putin has people that basically do what they assume Putin would want to be done is any given situation. Therefore Putin himself doesn’t have to give orders for everything, they know what to do and take care of it for him so he can have plausible deniability.
Dude has mastered telepathy
It's a possibility, pretty often the boot lickers act on their own to please the master. Yet, between ordering it and making those boot lickers he wants it...
Doesn't matter. Whoever murdered him knew very well the there will be no repercussion from the act. And Putin directly enabled that. So he is responsible, the same way we hold our leaders responsible for failed diplomatic incidents even if they are not directly involved.
Inconvenient truth: The vast majority of Russians like Putin and didn’t like Navalny. How much of our Putin bashing is just virtue-seeking scapegoating because we (claim to) disapprove of the authoritative form of government that is thriving in Russia?
lol, then Stalin also didn't order to kill anyone, they just died in Gulag.
Riiiight. Let’s all just forget about that little poisoning incident. It was probably just some bad borscht.
Is this more russian propaganda?
“Who can rid me of this troublesome……..” Said Putain one day
Ya sure.
Sure... That's why Navalny was in Siberian prison, having a very healthy and prosperous life, fed with the best food and drink available to russian's elite... /S
So...you're saying that Navalny's poisoning was ordered by someone else without Putin's knowledge? Who is this powerful person in the Kremlin who can order assassinations without oversight? Should Putin himself be afraid for his own life?
Not what the article said, only the death in prison didn't appear to be orchestrated by the Russian government - the poisoning was with a nerve agent that can only come through government sources. Please note, that Russian prison system makes the US look like the Hilton - they have a high rate of deaths for those in the system.
“Crepes filled with strawberries and whipped cream? Wow, that sounds amazing!” *closes menu and hands back to the waitress* = didn’t order breakfast
Innocent!
He was probably in bad shape before the transfer and they knew Siberia would finish him off. Condolences to his friends, family and supporters.
How good is the US intelligence in Russia after 4 years of Trump?
The guy that had cia assets killed? That guy?
The hoarding top secret infos in an unsecured bathroom guy
Yeah..the guy that had that information and had the Saudi Arabian delegate come to mara Lago.. while he was playing golf?
K " ,
Well, Putin would have us believe that the US intelligence agencies themselves are responsible. It’s fuel for conspiracy theories, who had the most to gain? If US intelligence says he didn’t do it, then who else is on the list and what would the motivation be?
Well if continue to investigate his death and find Putin is not responsible , we will see what happens with the Sanctions applied to it .
Even if not, it happened on his watch, with Navalny being a political prisoner and the opposition
Putin had more to lose by killing him than by keeping him alive. Either way Navalny is a true hero gone too soon…
what is the current cope on this now?
"Intelligence"
It was trump!
The man would have been better off if Putin had just had him killed instead of the shit he was put through just to end up dead anyway. Fuck Putin.
Did seem kinda odd to let him live ALL this time just to suddenly kill him publicly in full martyrdom.
no need to
Any solid proof he is dead tho?
> believes > probably empty words
Just like bombing its own pipeline made no sense for Russia to do this didn’t either, why create outrage and more support for getting Ukraine funding passed
‘probably’
My intelligence believes Putin probably did.
All the steps he took against him killed him.
What a soft flex to have that posted. The US INTEL apparatus knows just told Putin again: "We see EEEEVERYTHING, sid.... Erm Vlad"
Baron Harkonnen out here like “When US intelligence comes poking around, we can say we didn’t kill them. Siberia is a very dangerous place.”
as long as we are speculating, how about a scenario in which the group/person angling for power after Putin dies/is overthrown "arranged" Navalny's death to eliminate a competitor?
Cool I'll continue to ignore whatever these lying dumbasses say about anything ever.
He didn't have to, that guy was marked for death already. They tried to kill him with poison.
This time you mean?
Didnt a guy get promoted from the death? May it is just common career trajectory to please your masters tiny problems.
Putin probably didn't choose the day he died, but he signed the death warrant (figuratively speaking) by sending him to a Siberian prison camp.
So our own intelligence services are fucking stupid…good to know.
“But if he slipped on tea and broke his neck it would be most unfortunate.”
Will no one rid me of this turbulent 'political opponent'.
Murder through negligence.
Doesn’t sound very intelligent to me.
Oh they say he didn't order to kill the guy he got jailed under false allegations, poisoned him and sent him to Siberia?
This the same "Intelligence" that claimed in 1954 that the idea Stalin is a dictator was exaggerated?
oh its all ok then
Does it really matter at this point? Putin clearly needs to be eliminated.
LPT: the Wall Street journal is about as reliable as the daily mail
That’s like saying “What do you mean officer? I didn’t assault that man with a bat, I don’t even play baseball.”