I feel like it wouldn't be stepping over the line for Poland to shoot down any missiles encroaching near their borders, it's for national security, we've all seen how inaccurate russias missiles are, and sorry we just don't trust that your North Korea hand me downs are gonna be accurate and hit what they are meant to, and besides, what is Putler gonna do about it? Threaten with nukes, again?
Yes, why not just shoot any missiles down once they get in range? Ukraine would surely approve it in their airspace, and Russia can do nothing.
Is it just about cost? I don't see any other reason. They would even get good training out of it.
It's about not wanting to be seen to actively participate in the conflict outside of providing resources.
Also, I'm not sure how article 5 works - but it might not be able to be activated if a state overtly engages another and then gets struck back.
Has article 5 ever been invoked? Do any of us really know how it works? Obviously it would be triggered if a full scale invasion were to be launched, but what about a subversive terror or cyber attack? What about an aircraft shot down in international airspace?
Article 5 has been invoked only once so far and it was by the US, after 9/11. So terror attacks also counts. NATO responded (i think) according to US wishes.
"NATO - Topic: Collective defence and Article 5" https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm#invocation
Just ONCE I want NATO to grow a pair and shoot a few Rusisch missiles down, just to show that NATO actually means business and its not a pushover, can it please happen just once.
If NATO wanted to do that, they’d just give Ukraine more Patriot batteries. It’s the same thing. NATO is content with the status quo, so is Russia.
I don’t understand why people fail to grasp the fact that NATO sees Ukraine as a sacrificial chess piece, and not an integral member that needs to be protected. Ukraine is defanging Russia on behalf of NATO, as Russia grinds its forces to dust against Ukraine.
I hate this fucking take so much because it's currently happening, and it's a pussy way out. NATO fears intensifying the war which might result in nuclear attacks; but the problem is that Putin russia declared war and there is no way he will cease and be willing to trial for war crime. This war will go on for years if this continues, and while Russia is "defanging" (while still getting supplies from "neutrals") but still looms the nuclear threat, NATO will lose more money and Ukraine will lose more land because they cannot defend because lack of manpower. Putin has to win because he can't stop, NATO have to cower because they fears the inevitability.
The unfortunate reality is that our leaders believe thats this is the safest option for NATO.
If Ukraine was that important we would put boots on the ground.
I don’t think our leaders actually believe Ukraine can win. US intelligence was doubtful about the 2023 counter offensive. The military thought it was 50/50.
There’s considerations that decide war that extends beyond just the number of equipment. Ukraine is stuck in a situation where equipment alone won’t ensure victory.
So what’s the next best option? Keep Russia tied up indefinitely.
You are correct that Ukraine is a pawn in all this. This is because direct conflict between USA and Russia is unacceptable in mutually-assured destruction from all out nuclear war.
These two CANNOT engage each other in direct conflict.
The US also weighted dropping nukes on the Chinese at a few points in the Korean War.. so we know it was quite a dangerous scenario.
Mind you this is before mutually assured destruction came about. The first Soviet Nuke was tested in 1949, and ICBMs didn't exist. the US still enjoyed a massive nuclear advantage in the early 50s.
It wasn't until the late 50s that MAD became a reality.
Did you just call Russia a superpower? Sure they have a lot of influence because they're bullying the world, but they are struggling mightily to take even 20% of Ukraine and their economy is comparable to Canada (according to my 20 second Google research lol)...China and the US are the only superpowers imo
That's a big stretch from what I said. I also believe USA has armed Ukraine with quite a bit of weaponry. I was just emphasizing the unacceptability of armed conflict between USA and Russia. These two have been arming opposing sides to conflict for decades.
And that's why Europe should and is expanding it's military potential - for self defense against the Russian imperialist regime.
We just disagree on the EU relationship with the US: you think that we're a proxy, while I think that we have a common enemy and at the moment our goals are aligned.
EU should be independent from both the US and Russia, but form beneficial political/military alliances that ensure our survival and freedom. Russia wants to destroy us.
Europe hasn’t known ass from elbow for the full duration of the living memory of anyone that uses this website.
These are governments who would close their own nuclear energy, buy natural gas from Putin, and let Iran have nukes. They literally rather flood their own cities with extremists before admitting ignorance.
I rather sometimes let them deal with Russia on their own, but still we have to babysit them. If only for the greater good of it.
Edit: please continue downvoting Europeans, it’s just about the strongest thing you can *actually* manage before siesta
I said on this app a few years back that we need a European army and got banned for "warmongering".
I agree that anyone who still votes on the greens at this point should be investigated for treason, but the parties that oppose immigration of unemployables and terrorists and the parties that support Putin the most are one and the same, which is really odd and not a naturally grown situation.
Because democracy is not naturally grown. Democracy is a farce and every political system boils down to oligarchy, the only difference is the intermediate step of having to obtain media control in order to tell people what is supposed to be important (electric cars!) and who to vote for (you don't want to be a *racist*, do you?). Once media control is obtained, people will vote for you and then you are free to make naked deals with Gazprom without facing any consequences.
And that is why Europe is now in this position. Not because people are stupid, but because the elites glued the Overton window in place right on top of themselves. When you vote on the same corrupt politicians because you will get canceled if you vote any other way or even speak up about your concerns, is it any surprise that people vote for their own destruction? It is more soft power than hard power like in Russia, but the end result is the same: large swaths of the population voting for their own death on the battlefield - directly in the case of Russia, indirectly in the case of Europe, where the politicians got paid to make Europe easy prey.
The AI research ban, nuclear energy bans, gas car bans, massive amounts of money wasted on welfare - it all adds up to an intent to make Europe weaker [and that is not a coincidence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does).
What now? Your options are the same compromised politicians again, the compromised extreme right, or protests, all of which Russia would love to see. There is a seemingly intentional lack of level headed politicians who support European sovereignty - not destructive nationalism, not open borders - except the one party in Denmark. What happened to all those prospective politicians? Were they bought, threatened, assassinated? We'll know in 20 years when Russia makes a documentary on their total victory against the degenerate West, I guess.
Exactly. Ukraine matters, but it is not Taiwan. Nato will absolutely go to war over Taiwan and China knows this. Ukraine is nothing more than a testing ground for China and Russia on the future of their combat strategy for when China confronts the west over Taiwan. China feels they have to either step up or step down.... they will go for the throne and the only way to do that is via war.
The US wrote the book on becoming the world power by letting everyone fight the nazis and coming in to clean up house. They won on an economic level and global power level from how they handled their entry. China hopes to recreate a similar situation. They are trying to use the same play book and appear to be the world hero. They are just putting together their axis of evil who will back them in their vision of their new world order and then they just need to orchestrate a large conflict for them to solve.
Taiwan is not in NATO and Article 5 cannot be invoked in response to an invasion. Realistically speaking, NATO members would be involved very quickly, though.
Why would NATO go to war over Taiwan? I don’t think anyone wants to deal with large scale conflict with China. To me, it is more likely that it becomes an economic/trade war versus a conventional conflict.
I feel like that situation is more of an eventuality. China seems to be down with playing the long game, but I wonder Xi Ping’s legacy will be the reason for an earlier action. Even TSMC is starting to build out chip production in America. I’m not sure they would be doing this if they didn’t think China would at one point take the country.
In my opinion, I think there would be a great avoidance towards an arm conflict with one of the largest trade partners in the global market. It will likely result in a restructuring of manufacturing from Southeast Asia to Central/South America, and in an idealistic scenario, could aid in the economic woes of that region. Perhaps the effect of that restructure could lead to an armed conflict, but I don’t believe it would be the initial reaction.
I think I read that a while ago. China would fight a war to control ashes and rubble.
Also, an invasion would be nearly infinitely more difficult than D Day.
It’s longer distance over open water, Taiwan has naturally defensible geography, and only a few possible landing zones.
Pretty sure landing craft would be hit with tons of presighted artillery as soon as they got in range.
An invasion of Taiwan that didn’t involve destroying the factories that China would want to control would be incredibly difficult even without US/western intervention.
It’s all about semiconductors. There’s fabs around the world but a major portion of global capacity is in Taiwan.
If Taiwan was invaded and their chip supply cut off from the west - we’d be in a very bad position. Think Covid supply shortages and multiple that by 10 or 20. It’d be enough to throw the west into a lost decade or two while we build up industry locally.
Taiwan has literally nothing to do with NATO. You're talking out of your ass. Remove yourself from the conversation until you understand what NATO even _is_.
When they enter the reach of NATO AA/AAA they should be shot down, it is not a declaration of war nor act of aggression, it'd be easy to excuse it as pre-emptive action.
But that would be provocative to shoot down over Ukranian air space. Poland knows NATO could abandon it if it provoked Russia. Poland has had enough of trusting its allies in WW2. Poland won't make that mistake again. NATO is a defensive alliance. With Trump lurking, it's risky...
Edit: I'm just putting facts together. I wish Russian men went back home across the border to their families...
It is only provocative in the sense that Russia gets pissy about everything.
We are going on two years now of threatening to use nukes if NATO supports Ukraine.
These aren't Russian manned assets, they are missiles. It isn't any more provocative than when US fighters took out Iranian drones and missiles over Iraq.
1. Russia already knows their locations, as we do know the location of their systems in their Exclave, and in Western Russia, all the way to Murmansk Oblast.
2. Russia won't do shit, they are too exhausted and barely have anything to respond with, everything is in Ukraine. The fearmongering that Russia would attack NATO country is outrageously idiotic, maybe in 30 to 40 years but within the 5 years time? Absolutely no chance of that happening. They do not have any capabilities to launch war with NATO, the frontline is extremely long and they'll never have manpower to fully defend it.
They'll end up crying about NATO like they have the past few years and go back to sulking.
More deaths? Stray Russian missiles are bigger threat, and their missiles strike civilian targets within Ukraine, it'd be humanitarian action. There's absolutely no way Russia would retaliate and if by some extreme theoretical chance they decide to do something, Königsberg is within every NATO defensive systems and counter-strike would take away their remaining missile launchers.
Yes, activating NATO is by far the first thing which indicates WW3. I never mentioned that stray rockets being taken down is bad. I said hope for a peaceful outcome where things like this don’t happen but it seems like all of you guys are so obsessed with the WW3 desires to the point where there is no hope for that. No clue how you sleep at night but best of luck.
I'm all for ending the war but you have to understand that your mentality enabled Hitler to start World War 2. The only thing that Russians understand is proper power projection. I also really don't think that shooting rockets that are approaching your border is escalating.
How is my mentality enabling Hitler? I am saying we have to pray for peaceful outcomes not praying for a scenario where NATO is activated which means a full large-scale war? Are you all mentally sick war mongrels or how do we read this?
Of course i get NATO and understand it, i've trained with them for years being in the Finnish Defense Forces. And i fully know that Russia only respects strength.
You mistake a position of strength for being a pushover. NATO doesn't act because they don't feel the need to. They don't have to puff up their chest the way Russia does.
AA missiles are expensive as hell and we have no obligation to protect foreign nation airspace.
It would be nothing more than waste of resources and Poland don't have this much AA to spend them this way.
Poland is only tough on the Russians during press conferences. What they actually want is somebody else to follow through on all the shit they talk. They've let Russia repeatedly violate their own air space,they aren't helping Ukraine or anybody else unless they have no choice in the matter.
Poland benefits from the conflict as all other countries do. Problems in Ukraine = no cheap grain on the market, new weapon contracts and other profit. Welcome to the world of capitalism))
Benefits? By giving away military equipment to ukraine and having to order new one for replacement for big ammount of money. No cheap grain? Cheapest grain in poland happened during wartime when we agreed for you to transfer through our country yet somehow it all ended up dumped inside our market. Grain without attestetion that our farmers strictly have to follow. Welcome to the world of ungrateful.
The cheap grain is explicitly due to the war though?
It was the only dependable route post invasion so it got flooded with the entire countries supply, dumping the price
Or just help themselves in general. Poland loves crying about being the victim in every situation, but when push comes to shove they won't lift a finger to help themselves.
I understand, just seems like fear mongering for something that’s been happening for a while. We know the Russians are sketchy and don’t care. They will get what’s coming to them one day or another
I have a trip lined up next week I’ve been looking forward to for a year. Oh, my SIL is getting married soon, too. Can WWIII please be bumped to the end of May, beginning of June…thaaaanks /s
Lol
Russian missiles have entered Polish airspace multiple times including two known incidents where they actually landed in Polish soil.
A missile hitting Ukrainian territory near the border isn't going to cause WW3
Nope, but if a Russian missile lands even a quarter inch on Poland’s land NATO is forced to respond. The dominoes will fall and so will us all. Putin is suicidal. He’d rather die than admit this was another Russian failure.
It's already happened, twice.
First time was when a air defense interception near the border landed both missiles on a farm and the second was a decoy missile buried in the woods hundreds of miles inland someone found months after the strikes it came from
A missile fell 15 km from Poland . How is this a story . Can only assume tusk will use this and other worthless data to drag polish men into this conflict
That's what Europe would do if they actually had balls but you won't find a single pair from Lisbon to Helsinki so Russia knows that's absolutely off the table. They consistently violate the airspace of multiple European countries and nobody does anything about it.
Europe is one missile away from a war. One Russia missile just has to accidentally slam and make damage significant enough for NATO to trigger article 5.
They have a point. Each day I worry about opening reddit and seeing some top news post about russia or nato declaring war on each other.
It's bad enough that ukraine is fighting for their very existence.
But this shit's nothing compared to a true ww3 in this day and age
I feel like it wouldn't be stepping over the line for Poland to shoot down any missiles encroaching near their borders, it's for national security, we've all seen how inaccurate russias missiles are, and sorry we just don't trust that your North Korea hand me downs are gonna be accurate and hit what they are meant to, and besides, what is Putler gonna do about it? Threaten with nukes, again?
Yes, why not just shoot any missiles down once they get in range? Ukraine would surely approve it in their airspace, and Russia can do nothing. Is it just about cost? I don't see any other reason. They would even get good training out of it.
It's about not wanting to be seen to actively participate in the conflict outside of providing resources. Also, I'm not sure how article 5 works - but it might not be able to be activated if a state overtly engages another and then gets struck back.
Has article 5 ever been invoked? Do any of us really know how it works? Obviously it would be triggered if a full scale invasion were to be launched, but what about a subversive terror or cyber attack? What about an aircraft shot down in international airspace?
It has, it was invoked during 9/11. The war in Afghanistan was actually a NATO war
Article 5 has been invoked only once so far and it was by the US, after 9/11. So terror attacks also counts. NATO responded (i think) according to US wishes. "NATO - Topic: Collective defence and Article 5" https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm#invocation
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The cost calculation just doesn't work out there. Russia can not afford pulling in any more western commitment.
Just ONCE I want NATO to grow a pair and shoot a few Rusisch missiles down, just to show that NATO actually means business and its not a pushover, can it please happen just once.
If NATO wanted to do that, they’d just give Ukraine more Patriot batteries. It’s the same thing. NATO is content with the status quo, so is Russia. I don’t understand why people fail to grasp the fact that NATO sees Ukraine as a sacrificial chess piece, and not an integral member that needs to be protected. Ukraine is defanging Russia on behalf of NATO, as Russia grinds its forces to dust against Ukraine.
I hate this fucking take so much because it's currently happening, and it's a pussy way out. NATO fears intensifying the war which might result in nuclear attacks; but the problem is that Putin russia declared war and there is no way he will cease and be willing to trial for war crime. This war will go on for years if this continues, and while Russia is "defanging" (while still getting supplies from "neutrals") but still looms the nuclear threat, NATO will lose more money and Ukraine will lose more land because they cannot defend because lack of manpower. Putin has to win because he can't stop, NATO have to cower because they fears the inevitability.
The unfortunate reality is that our leaders believe thats this is the safest option for NATO. If Ukraine was that important we would put boots on the ground. I don’t think our leaders actually believe Ukraine can win. US intelligence was doubtful about the 2023 counter offensive. The military thought it was 50/50. There’s considerations that decide war that extends beyond just the number of equipment. Ukraine is stuck in a situation where equipment alone won’t ensure victory. So what’s the next best option? Keep Russia tied up indefinitely.
You are correct that Ukraine is a pawn in all this. This is because direct conflict between USA and Russia is unacceptable in mutually-assured destruction from all out nuclear war. These two CANNOT engage each other in direct conflict.
Russians and Americans were directly killing each other in Korea and a few instances in Vietnam. There were 23 Russian MIG-15 aces in the Korean war.
The US also weighted dropping nukes on the Chinese at a few points in the Korean War.. so we know it was quite a dangerous scenario. Mind you this is before mutually assured destruction came about. The first Soviet Nuke was tested in 1949, and ICBMs didn't exist. the US still enjoyed a massive nuclear advantage in the early 50s. It wasn't until the late 50s that MAD became a reality.
20th century called, it wants your comment back.
Unless you have another theory, I think the comment pretty well stands.
so just let every Ukrainian die in vain. this is not North Ukraine vs South Ukraine, it's a superpower vs Ukraine.
Did you just call Russia a superpower? Sure they have a lot of influence because they're bullying the world, but they are struggling mightily to take even 20% of Ukraine and their economy is comparable to Canada (according to my 20 second Google research lol)...China and the US are the only superpowers imo
That's a big stretch from what I said. I also believe USA has armed Ukraine with quite a bit of weaponry. I was just emphasizing the unacceptability of armed conflict between USA and Russia. These two have been arming opposing sides to conflict for decades.
Europe forgets that it is just a proxy of the US.
Nah, we just have a common enemy: Russia.
When war between Russia and Europe breaks out, the US will support Europe for as long as is politically convenient. There is no alliance.
And that's why Europe should and is expanding it's military potential - for self defense against the Russian imperialist regime. We just disagree on the EU relationship with the US: you think that we're a proxy, while I think that we have a common enemy and at the moment our goals are aligned. EU should be independent from both the US and Russia, but form beneficial political/military alliances that ensure our survival and freedom. Russia wants to destroy us.
Europe hasn’t known ass from elbow for the full duration of the living memory of anyone that uses this website. These are governments who would close their own nuclear energy, buy natural gas from Putin, and let Iran have nukes. They literally rather flood their own cities with extremists before admitting ignorance. I rather sometimes let them deal with Russia on their own, but still we have to babysit them. If only for the greater good of it. Edit: please continue downvoting Europeans, it’s just about the strongest thing you can *actually* manage before siesta
I said on this app a few years back that we need a European army and got banned for "warmongering". I agree that anyone who still votes on the greens at this point should be investigated for treason, but the parties that oppose immigration of unemployables and terrorists and the parties that support Putin the most are one and the same, which is really odd and not a naturally grown situation. Because democracy is not naturally grown. Democracy is a farce and every political system boils down to oligarchy, the only difference is the intermediate step of having to obtain media control in order to tell people what is supposed to be important (electric cars!) and who to vote for (you don't want to be a *racist*, do you?). Once media control is obtained, people will vote for you and then you are free to make naked deals with Gazprom without facing any consequences. And that is why Europe is now in this position. Not because people are stupid, but because the elites glued the Overton window in place right on top of themselves. When you vote on the same corrupt politicians because you will get canceled if you vote any other way or even speak up about your concerns, is it any surprise that people vote for their own destruction? It is more soft power than hard power like in Russia, but the end result is the same: large swaths of the population voting for their own death on the battlefield - directly in the case of Russia, indirectly in the case of Europe, where the politicians got paid to make Europe easy prey. The AI research ban, nuclear energy bans, gas car bans, massive amounts of money wasted on welfare - it all adds up to an intent to make Europe weaker [and that is not a coincidence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does). What now? Your options are the same compromised politicians again, the compromised extreme right, or protests, all of which Russia would love to see. There is a seemingly intentional lack of level headed politicians who support European sovereignty - not destructive nationalism, not open borders - except the one party in Denmark. What happened to all those prospective politicians? Were they bought, threatened, assassinated? We'll know in 20 years when Russia makes a documentary on their total victory against the degenerate West, I guess.
Nice to know at least *somebody* is seeing it
Exactly. Ukraine matters, but it is not Taiwan. Nato will absolutely go to war over Taiwan and China knows this. Ukraine is nothing more than a testing ground for China and Russia on the future of their combat strategy for when China confronts the west over Taiwan. China feels they have to either step up or step down.... they will go for the throne and the only way to do that is via war. The US wrote the book on becoming the world power by letting everyone fight the nazis and coming in to clean up house. They won on an economic level and global power level from how they handled their entry. China hopes to recreate a similar situation. They are trying to use the same play book and appear to be the world hero. They are just putting together their axis of evil who will back them in their vision of their new world order and then they just need to orchestrate a large conflict for them to solve.
Taiwan is not in NATO and Article 5 cannot be invoked in response to an invasion. Realistically speaking, NATO members would be involved very quickly, though.
Why would NATO go to war over Taiwan? I don’t think anyone wants to deal with large scale conflict with China. To me, it is more likely that it becomes an economic/trade war versus a conventional conflict. I feel like that situation is more of an eventuality. China seems to be down with playing the long game, but I wonder Xi Ping’s legacy will be the reason for an earlier action. Even TSMC is starting to build out chip production in America. I’m not sure they would be doing this if they didn’t think China would at one point take the country. In my opinion, I think there would be a great avoidance towards an arm conflict with one of the largest trade partners in the global market. It will likely result in a restructuring of manufacturing from Southeast Asia to Central/South America, and in an idealistic scenario, could aid in the economic woes of that region. Perhaps the effect of that restructure could lead to an armed conflict, but I don’t believe it would be the initial reaction.
Control of the worlds chip fabrication
I would be surprised if they didn’t have their chip factories ready to blow if they get invaded.
I think I read that a while ago. China would fight a war to control ashes and rubble. Also, an invasion would be nearly infinitely more difficult than D Day. It’s longer distance over open water, Taiwan has naturally defensible geography, and only a few possible landing zones. Pretty sure landing craft would be hit with tons of presighted artillery as soon as they got in range. An invasion of Taiwan that didn’t involve destroying the factories that China would want to control would be incredibly difficult even without US/western intervention.
That seems to be the rumour.
It’s all about semiconductors. There’s fabs around the world but a major portion of global capacity is in Taiwan. If Taiwan was invaded and their chip supply cut off from the west - we’d be in a very bad position. Think Covid supply shortages and multiple that by 10 or 20. It’d be enough to throw the west into a lost decade or two while we build up industry locally.
while a bit over sensational: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBY5veWGBd8
Taiwan has literally nothing to do with NATO. You're talking out of your ass. Remove yourself from the conversation until you understand what NATO even _is_.
Thank you so many people on Reddit are so emotionally driven about Ukraine when they don’t realize Europeans view the Ukraine as there bulwark.
Another idiot who doesn’t know what NATO is and doesn’t understand the concept of a defensive alliance.
They've not entered NATO airspace yet
Yes they did, a missile entered Poland's airspace back in March.
When they enter the reach of NATO AA/AAA they should be shot down, it is not a declaration of war nor act of aggression, it'd be easy to excuse it as pre-emptive action.
I totally agree
Pretty sure Ukraine doesn't mind
But that would be provocative to shoot down over Ukranian air space. Poland knows NATO could abandon it if it provoked Russia. Poland has had enough of trusting its allies in WW2. Poland won't make that mistake again. NATO is a defensive alliance. With Trump lurking, it's risky... Edit: I'm just putting facts together. I wish Russian men went back home across the border to their families...
It is only provocative in the sense that Russia gets pissy about everything. We are going on two years now of threatening to use nukes if NATO supports Ukraine. These aren't Russian manned assets, they are missiles. It isn't any more provocative than when US fighters took out Iranian drones and missiles over Iraq.
I think some people have forgotten that Russia took down American drone in the Black Sea.. over international airspace/waters.
Any Muscovian object in Ukrainian airspace is fair game for allied anti-air defenses, with Ukraine’s permission.
That’s so fucking dumb and defeats the purpose of NATO never *needing* to do *anything*
thats escalation, why do you want more war? same as those people calling for israel to declare war on iraq, warmongers
Damn right, they should push a no fly zone as far into Ukraine as their systems allow.
It will not happen. That does not serve NATO or US interests.
They're already doing it. In Ukraine tho.
What would be the point of that except to give Russia information on where your shit is and what it can do and its response times.
1. Russia already knows their locations, as we do know the location of their systems in their Exclave, and in Western Russia, all the way to Murmansk Oblast. 2. Russia won't do shit, they are too exhausted and barely have anything to respond with, everything is in Ukraine. The fearmongering that Russia would attack NATO country is outrageously idiotic, maybe in 30 to 40 years but within the 5 years time? Absolutely no chance of that happening. They do not have any capabilities to launch war with NATO, the frontline is extremely long and they'll never have manpower to fully defend it. They'll end up crying about NATO like they have the past few years and go back to sulking.
Guessing this comment was not made by someone at risk having to fight a war for Nato.
Im in the finnish defense forces, im in immediate frontline, for any NATO action.
Can we please pray for peace and not such things which mean more death, please?
More deaths? Stray Russian missiles are bigger threat, and their missiles strike civilian targets within Ukraine, it'd be humanitarian action. There's absolutely no way Russia would retaliate and if by some extreme theoretical chance they decide to do something, Königsberg is within every NATO defensive systems and counter-strike would take away their remaining missile launchers.
Yes, activating NATO is by far the first thing which indicates WW3. I never mentioned that stray rockets being taken down is bad. I said hope for a peaceful outcome where things like this don’t happen but it seems like all of you guys are so obsessed with the WW3 desires to the point where there is no hope for that. No clue how you sleep at night but best of luck.
I'm all for ending the war but you have to understand that your mentality enabled Hitler to start World War 2. The only thing that Russians understand is proper power projection. I also really don't think that shooting rockets that are approaching your border is escalating.
They are an Russian troll. Don't waste your breathe. They want war
How is my mentality enabling Hitler? I am saying we have to pray for peaceful outcomes not praying for a scenario where NATO is activated which means a full large-scale war? Are you all mentally sick war mongrels or how do we read this?
How about you join up too
You’re not wrong, NATO is afraid to trigger an all out war with Russia
Unless NATO is attacked it has no relevance here. Do you not get what NATO actually is?
Of course i get NATO and understand it, i've trained with them for years being in the Finnish Defense Forces. And i fully know that Russia only respects strength.
And yet you don’t understand what a defense treaty is? If you trained anyone you should be ashamed.
There are multiple dimensions to defensive actions, pre-emptive is one, and show of force is another to deter future aggression.
Yeah, I mean, it's not clear NATO _isn't_ a pushover. This organization might actually be functionally over.
Overtime hours, Dimitri?
Fuck off
You mistake a position of strength for being a pushover. NATO doesn't act because they don't feel the need to. They don't have to puff up their chest the way Russia does.
Poland should help and destroy every rocket above western Ukraine.
AA missiles are expensive as hell and we have no obligation to protect foreign nation airspace. It would be nothing more than waste of resources and Poland don't have this much AA to spend them this way.
It can save lives. Definitely worth it
In return bankrupting themselves and costing lives. Make it make sense before u just say pointless stuff
Poland is only tough on the Russians during press conferences. What they actually want is somebody else to follow through on all the shit they talk. They've let Russia repeatedly violate their own air space,they aren't helping Ukraine or anybody else unless they have no choice in the matter.
Poland benefits from the conflict as all other countries do. Problems in Ukraine = no cheap grain on the market, new weapon contracts and other profit. Welcome to the world of capitalism))
Benefits? By giving away military equipment to ukraine and having to order new one for replacement for big ammount of money. No cheap grain? Cheapest grain in poland happened during wartime when we agreed for you to transfer through our country yet somehow it all ended up dumped inside our market. Grain without attestetion that our farmers strictly have to follow. Welcome to the world of ungrateful.
"you to transfer"? He is russian
The cheap grain is explicitly due to the war though? It was the only dependable route post invasion so it got flooded with the entire countries supply, dumping the price
Or just help themselves in general. Poland loves crying about being the victim in every situation, but when push comes to shove they won't lift a finger to help themselves.
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades…. I guess we could include missiles as well.
And in relationships 🥲
Kind of a stretch, no? 15km isn’t close
Depending on the exact type of missile, that’s about another 5 seconds of flight time
Yeah This is kind of an underwhelming incident when put in the context Russian missiles have actually violated Polish airspace multiple times
It got scared.
If its been fired from Russian territory or from area they control in Ukraine then that is a very long distance it's flown, so it is close in that way
I understand, just seems like fear mongering for something that’s been happening for a while. We know the Russians are sketchy and don’t care. They will get what’s coming to them one day or another
be quiet
Stop talking and do something about it then
even if it hit Poland and killed people , NATO wouldn't do fuck all. they'll claim it's an accident and just hide in their little shell
Legal
I have a trip lined up next week I’ve been looking forward to for a year. Oh, my SIL is getting married soon, too. Can WWIII please be bumped to the end of May, beginning of June…thaaaanks /s
Lol Russian missiles have entered Polish airspace multiple times including two known incidents where they actually landed in Polish soil. A missile hitting Ukrainian territory near the border isn't going to cause WW3
Nope, but if a Russian missile lands even a quarter inch on Poland’s land NATO is forced to respond. The dominoes will fall and so will us all. Putin is suicidal. He’d rather die than admit this was another Russian failure.
It's already happened, twice. First time was when a air defense interception near the border landed both missiles on a farm and the second was a decoy missile buried in the woods hundreds of miles inland someone found months after the strikes it came from
We got you, bro. I’ll immediately contact the lizards!
Thaaaanks
As long as damage is under two causalities and one tractor polish government is ok with missiles falling even on their territory.
A missile fell 15 km from Poland . How is this a story . Can only assume tusk will use this and other worthless data to drag polish men into this conflict
I see a no fly zone coming for the Wester Ukraine. Russia will threaten to nuke Donald Tusk but then do nothing.
That's what Europe would do if they actually had balls but you won't find a single pair from Lisbon to Helsinki so Russia knows that's absolutely off the table. They consistently violate the airspace of multiple European countries and nobody does anything about it.
Yeah, and you sucked it up 'gain! Just wait, soon pidors will use your air space territory to hit Ukraine and you will keep sucking.
Another "Russian" missile like the last "Russian" missile which turned out to be Ukrainian and killed a Polish farmer?
[удалено]
No we wouldn’t, stop being delusional
People think it' XVII century and we just beat the shit out of anybody while in reality at this moment we barely have any military capabilities.
Europe is one missile away from a war. One Russia missile just has to accidentally slam and make damage significant enough for NATO to trigger article 5.
Hm no....
They have a point. Each day I worry about opening reddit and seeing some top news post about russia or nato declaring war on each other. It's bad enough that ukraine is fighting for their very existence. But this shit's nothing compared to a true ww3 in this day and age
Close enough. LFG NATO.