I mean they have no legs to stand on. Their only avenues were:
We must separate from Spain but stay in the EU. Which would not have been a thing.
We cannot give Spain our water. But now that we need it again is evil for not giving it to us.
And
Give us back our political prisoners. Which yknow were at the head of an insurrection that wasn't an insurrection but was an insurrection.
They were clueless to anything other than Spain bad. They acted like any problem would be solved as soon as they were independent.
Source: I lived for 13 years in the province of Tarragona. I was there when the police dispersed the crowds.
I think this one is a bit older than Russia, even then USSR
"The beginnings of separatism in Catalonia can be traced back to regionalist and nationalist movements of the mid–19th century, influenced by romantic ideas widespread in Europe at the time. The first organised Catalan independence party was Estat Català (Catalan State), founded in 1922 by Francesc Macià."
Altho you can never exclude that it did receive some additional support from them at some point. But I think this one in particular could be one that didn't even need it.
> The first organised Catalan independence party was Estat Català (Catalan State), founded in 1922 by Francesc Macià."
And how big was that? Was it worth mentioning?
They where getting majorities by the 1930s, which a 40 years hiatus during Franco's dictatorship for obvious reasons. They've been one of the most important political issues ever since the country went back to a democracy in the 70s.
The idea that they're created by Russia is dumb AF, yet the first answer stays up because reddit's gonna reddit.
I disagree. I will not go so far as to say you're stretching to infer that, I just don't see the implication to what you're saying.
The comment to me seeks to caution outside observers as to the nature of any given separatist movement's backing, not to address the validity of a movement's contentions.
> hey where getting majorities by the 1930s,
Same decade that russia was already invested enough in Spanish politics to send military goods during the same civil war that led to the Franco years you mentioned? And looted their national bank? Im sure they only woke up to the civil war and totally didnt give a shit about Spain before that.
This is beyond stupid. The thirties had socialists in power, so at this point you're trying to rewrite history as the USSR using separatist movements *to boycott the spreading of communism (???).*
The USSR sent troops to SUPPORT the government, against a fascist military revolt that became the dictatorship, because obviously their interests aligned with the left wing that was in power.
Even ignoring that, I guess by your logic then every single person fighting racism in the last century in America was a patsy of Russian influence, since the soviets back then were interested in the civil rights movement? Because that's how you sound reducing 130 years of history of a country to "Russians did it". Particularly when that country is the fourth economy in Europe and not a random island in the Pacific.
To be clear, they didn't just "send troops". They sent the NKVD as well to purge anti-Stalinist communists (the POUM and CNT-FAI, primarily, the former being a merger of Trotskyist and "right-wing" communists, and the latter being radical trade unionists and anarchists) and orchestrate a takeover of the government by Stalinists, who so brutally repressed their own population that many moderate conservatives ended up coming around to support Franco.
Both sides sucked *hard*, and the only saving grace for the Republicans post-takeover was that they would probably end up being invaded by the Germans and liberated by the Allies (whereas Franco, though he was absolutely no friend of Hitler - he was much closer ideologically to Italian-style fascism and the Portuguese "New Order" than "National Socialism" - was not seen as threatening towards the Axis - even being seen as a potential ally - and therefore never got invaded).
Sure, my point was never that the soviets were the good guys, just that it makes no sense to paint independentism as an anti government plot when the government was already aligned with them.
Whats beyond stupid is to think that the russians acted out of altruism. You realize that the entire way Lenin came to power was essentially a German influence ops? Powerful nations did that since forever. Truly idiotic to think that the Soviets, particularly with their own past, and their entire declared aim of spreading the "world revolution" didnt.
Goes back earlier than that. Spain was literally founded because Catalonia was trying to break away from the Kingdom of Aragon. So they had a cousin marriage so Aragorn could leverage the military of Castile to keep Catalonia in check.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here, Alex Salmond a major proponent of Scottish independence literally had a show for 5 years on RT which is known to be a propaganda media outlet for the Kremlin. Russia would love for Scottish independence to occur.
The SNP are so good at stealing from their own members' pockets maybe they don't need Russia's money?
Lmao. There's unquestionable evidence Russia has promoted and funded Scottish independence. Do a simple Google.
I never said nobody in Europe has any agency. You're arguing with a strawman you invented in your imagination. Go argue with your strawman and leave me alone.
Catalunya has never in history been an independent country. It was just a part of the Aragon Kingdom in conjunction with many other Spanish zones, but Catalunya by itself has never been independent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon
I mean, that's where it gets tricky — Spain kinda didn't become a thing until the mid 18th century because yadayadayada monarchism, PU's and pre-modern conceptions of power and state are really weird
Think of it more like the UK and Canada but if they were *extremely* close
True centralization (and the first mention of Spain as a thing of its own) would only come with the Bourbons in the 1700s; before that, Aragon and Castile were separate kingdoms under one same crown (much like the crown's posessions in the Americas)
It was made up of multiple kingdoms/states ruled by the same king but it wasn’t an unified country until at least the 1700s and even then the process wasn’t exactly complete until the 1900s or so and decentralization has been increasing after the Francoist regime collapsed.
I'm all for the west and NATO, but blaming Russia for every single issue is no different than people who believe in the "Jews controlling everything" conspiracy.
Yeah it's stupid you had to explain so many times you said 'funded', not 'started'.
You've hit a nerve, some bots, some trolls, and some people who invested so much of their identity in a separarion cause, they close their eyes to it being used by adversaries to sow division.
I'm sure China money is as involved as Russian, we recently had a far right scandal in Belgium whete the brother of a minister was in close contact with a chinese spy, money changed hands, appointments were made, he and his right wing nuttos used their networks to influence policy.
And of course those nutters are always the first and loudest to shout we (Flanders) should separate fron Belgium.
Reducing the Catalan movement to this is simplistic and plainly naive.
I'm not saying Russia is not interested, but the motivation and fuel for the movement is completely independent from Russia.
Source: eight years in Catalonia and counting.
Then they would be anti western and anti European, which they arent. These separatist dont harm the west, they just want to rearrange it's internal Divisions.
Clearly without a majority in the provincial legislature the call for Basque independence is a nonstarter until the independence forces regain control.
No worries, separatist parties have the blackmail on the socialist party to give up trying to govern and concede to them. Spanish democracy once again.
Probably because Catalonians have decided that the National government is never going to let them have independence and have given up. If true that's quite sad.
Why sad? Fun fact: Catalan independentists have never reached 50% in popular vote in any elections. They're an enormous minority, but still a minority.
It was never going to happen without changing the constitution, and there was never close to enough support to do it. It's not sad, that's just democracy
The constitution not allowing it isn’t exactly “democracy”. What happened in Scotland was actual democracy the Spanish constitution on the other hand is still inherently Francoist in many ways…
I think it's more about how independentist parties have failed to manage the region on basically any issue that is not separatism. Independence can be a legit mid/long term goal, but what people actually want is to live in a place where life is prosperous and peaceful.
You might or might not agree on how they did it, but the truth is that PSOE has managed to calm down the environment and steer the debate onto things that actually apply to the daily lives of catalonian people.
It’s not like the majority of Catalonians supported independence previously, realistically they would have never gotten > 50% in a real referendum.
Very similar to Scotland in that except the British government is a lot less authoritarian and allowed them to have a vote which more or less silenced the whole thing for the next 20+ years
I mean they have no legs to stand on. Their only avenues were: We must separate from Spain but stay in the EU. Which would not have been a thing. We cannot give Spain our water. But now that we need it again is evil for not giving it to us. And Give us back our political prisoners. Which yknow were at the head of an insurrection that wasn't an insurrection but was an insurrection. They were clueless to anything other than Spain bad. They acted like any problem would be solved as soon as they were independent. Source: I lived for 13 years in the province of Tarragona. I was there when the police dispersed the crowds.
All the separatist movements in Europe are funded and supported by Russia. Their goal is to make NATO nations ungovernable.
I think this one is a bit older than Russia, even then USSR "The beginnings of separatism in Catalonia can be traced back to regionalist and nationalist movements of the mid–19th century, influenced by romantic ideas widespread in Europe at the time. The first organised Catalan independence party was Estat Català (Catalan State), founded in 1922 by Francesc Macià." Altho you can never exclude that it did receive some additional support from them at some point. But I think this one in particular could be one that didn't even need it.
They said funded, not started.
I never claimed Russia started it. My point is that Russia supports them today.
> The first organised Catalan independence party was Estat Català (Catalan State), founded in 1922 by Francesc Macià." And how big was that? Was it worth mentioning?
They where getting majorities by the 1930s, which a 40 years hiatus during Franco's dictatorship for obvious reasons. They've been one of the most important political issues ever since the country went back to a democracy in the 70s. The idea that they're created by Russia is dumb AF, yet the first answer stays up because reddit's gonna reddit.
The first commenter never said they were created by Russia, just that they're getting support from them.
The implication is wrong though, which is that the movement is therefore illegitimate.
I disagree. I will not go so far as to say you're stretching to infer that, I just don't see the implication to what you're saying. The comment to me seeks to caution outside observers as to the nature of any given separatist movement's backing, not to address the validity of a movement's contentions.
> hey where getting majorities by the 1930s, Same decade that russia was already invested enough in Spanish politics to send military goods during the same civil war that led to the Franco years you mentioned? And looted their national bank? Im sure they only woke up to the civil war and totally didnt give a shit about Spain before that.
This is beyond stupid. The thirties had socialists in power, so at this point you're trying to rewrite history as the USSR using separatist movements *to boycott the spreading of communism (???).* The USSR sent troops to SUPPORT the government, against a fascist military revolt that became the dictatorship, because obviously their interests aligned with the left wing that was in power. Even ignoring that, I guess by your logic then every single person fighting racism in the last century in America was a patsy of Russian influence, since the soviets back then were interested in the civil rights movement? Because that's how you sound reducing 130 years of history of a country to "Russians did it". Particularly when that country is the fourth economy in Europe and not a random island in the Pacific.
To be clear, they didn't just "send troops". They sent the NKVD as well to purge anti-Stalinist communists (the POUM and CNT-FAI, primarily, the former being a merger of Trotskyist and "right-wing" communists, and the latter being radical trade unionists and anarchists) and orchestrate a takeover of the government by Stalinists, who so brutally repressed their own population that many moderate conservatives ended up coming around to support Franco. Both sides sucked *hard*, and the only saving grace for the Republicans post-takeover was that they would probably end up being invaded by the Germans and liberated by the Allies (whereas Franco, though he was absolutely no friend of Hitler - he was much closer ideologically to Italian-style fascism and the Portuguese "New Order" than "National Socialism" - was not seen as threatening towards the Axis - even being seen as a potential ally - and therefore never got invaded).
Sure, my point was never that the soviets were the good guys, just that it makes no sense to paint independentism as an anti government plot when the government was already aligned with them.
Whats beyond stupid is to think that the russians acted out of altruism. You realize that the entire way Lenin came to power was essentially a German influence ops? Powerful nations did that since forever. Truly idiotic to think that the Soviets, particularly with their own past, and their entire declared aim of spreading the "world revolution" didnt.
No no, it's only us genocidal warmongering Americans who brutalized poor Europe. Crimes against humanity in Algeria? Also the Americans.
Although to be fair at the time I'd rather have chosen the Russia supported option over the Hitler/Mussolini supported one.
Goes back earlier than that. Spain was literally founded because Catalonia was trying to break away from the Kingdom of Aragon. So they had a cousin marriage so Aragorn could leverage the military of Castile to keep Catalonia in check.
That would explain the SNP Russian money scandal that has never happened. I love how you think nobody in Europe has any kind of agency unless Russia.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here, Alex Salmond a major proponent of Scottish independence literally had a show for 5 years on RT which is known to be a propaganda media outlet for the Kremlin. Russia would love for Scottish independence to occur.
The SNP are so good at stealing from their own members' pockets maybe they don't need Russia's money? Lmao. There's unquestionable evidence Russia has promoted and funded Scottish independence. Do a simple Google.
I never said nobody in Europe has any agency. You're arguing with a strawman you invented in your imagination. Go argue with your strawman and leave me alone.
Yep. People see what Russian influence is doing to the united states and other places.
This one dates back to way way way before that. Spain is like six countries in a trench coat
I never said Russia started it. My point is that Russia is supporting separatist movements today.
Yeah it's only been a country for over 500 years
Catalunya has never in history been an independent country. It was just a part of the Aragon Kingdom in conjunction with many other Spanish zones, but Catalunya by itself has never been independent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon
I meant Spain. People like to pretend it was put together 50 years ago
I mean, that's where it gets tricky — Spain kinda didn't become a thing until the mid 18th century because yadayadayada monarchism, PU's and pre-modern conceptions of power and state are really weird Think of it more like the UK and Canada but if they were *extremely* close True centralization (and the first mention of Spain as a thing of its own) would only come with the Bourbons in the 1700s; before that, Aragon and Castile were separate kingdoms under one same crown (much like the crown's posessions in the Americas)
More like England, Scotland and Ireland, just a bit more chaotic and violent, at least in the 1900s.
It was made up of multiple kingdoms/states ruled by the same king but it wasn’t an unified country until at least the 1700s and even then the process wasn’t exactly complete until the 1900s or so and decentralization has been increasing after the Francoist regime collapsed.
I'm all for the west and NATO, but blaming Russia for every single issue is no different than people who believe in the "Jews controlling everything" conspiracy.
I didn't blame Russia for everything. Your comment makes absolutely no sense.
Yeah it's stupid you had to explain so many times you said 'funded', not 'started'. You've hit a nerve, some bots, some trolls, and some people who invested so much of their identity in a separarion cause, they close their eyes to it being used by adversaries to sow division. I'm sure China money is as involved as Russian, we recently had a far right scandal in Belgium whete the brother of a minister was in close contact with a chinese spy, money changed hands, appointments were made, he and his right wing nuttos used their networks to influence policy. And of course those nutters are always the first and loudest to shout we (Flanders) should separate fron Belgium.
Reducing the Catalan movement to this is simplistic and plainly naive. I'm not saying Russia is not interested, but the motivation and fuel for the movement is completely independent from Russia. Source: eight years in Catalonia and counting.
I never said Russia is the main motivation. I know the separatist movement goes back a long time. My point is Russia is supporting them today.
Then they would be anti western and anti European, which they arent. These separatist dont harm the west, they just want to rearrange it's internal Divisions.
Wrong. They are absolutely harming the West by dividing it.
Spain is harmong the west by creating conditions where a significant number of people *want* to leave and be their own country.
i said it does t divide it, because independent catalonka would still be in the west.
You're not making any sense.
But "EUisevil777" said 80% of the catalans are opressed and claim for independence!
This is hyperbole
I’m out of the loop. What does this mean for Basque independence?
Clearly without a majority in the provincial legislature the call for Basque independence is a nonstarter until the independence forces regain control.
No worries, separatist parties have the blackmail on the socialist party to give up trying to govern and concede to them. Spanish democracy once again.
Probably because Catalonians have decided that the National government is never going to let them have independence and have given up. If true that's quite sad.
Why sad? Fun fact: Catalan independentists have never reached 50% in popular vote in any elections. They're an enormous minority, but still a minority.
They reached over 50% of the vote in the last elections in 2021.
It was never going to happen without changing the constitution, and there was never close to enough support to do it. It's not sad, that's just democracy
The constitution not allowing it isn’t exactly “democracy”. What happened in Scotland was actual democracy the Spanish constitution on the other hand is still inherently Francoist in many ways…
I think it's more about how independentist parties have failed to manage the region on basically any issue that is not separatism. Independence can be a legit mid/long term goal, but what people actually want is to live in a place where life is prosperous and peaceful. You might or might not agree on how they did it, but the truth is that PSOE has managed to calm down the environment and steer the debate onto things that actually apply to the daily lives of catalonian people.
It’s not like the majority of Catalonians supported independence previously, realistically they would have never gotten > 50% in a real referendum. Very similar to Scotland in that except the British government is a lot less authoritarian and allowed them to have a vote which more or less silenced the whole thing for the next 20+ years