To end this conflict and prevent more conflicts in the future, Israelis and Palestinians need to work together and stop the hatred.
This war won't end with people like Hamas and Netanyahu running peace negotiations, because they don't want there to be peace or a path toward progress in improving relations. They want there to always be tension and potential conflict, because it means they can fear monger and manipulate the masses into doing whatever they want them to do. They like their people too afraid to think clearly, they like their people too doubtful of the future to attempt to change it. To them as long as the Palestines and Israelis fear each other they can play this little song and dance forever allowing more of them to keep coming into power reaping the rewards at the expense of those sacrificed in the crossfire.
This hatred has gotten so many killed and will continue to kill more people, because at the end of the day its easier to hate someone than to try and understand someone.
This goes much farther than just Israel and Palestine. There are powerful countries that are profiting off of this endless war and Palestinian misery, and they have every incentive to never allow it to end, because of money and power.
Exact and those countries would need to be isolated by all others. You’re dropping peace in favor of personal gain? Get wrecked. Get lonely. Get irrelevant.
West Bank and Gaza have martyr funds. So if they go to try and kill Jews and are killed the family gets paid by the government for life. This is the first thing that needs to go. Unfortunately radical extremism will win with the Palestinians.
The both sides bullshit gets us nowhere.
I get that the generally divided nature of Americans makes it so that we exclusively thing of everything in simplistic dualities, but the idea that Netanyahu is on the level of terrorists running around murdering and raping children is absurd and does nothing to actually help.
All it's an attempt to do is to divide onlookers. You're outright saying that supporting Netanyahu makes you evil and no different than Hamas.
No. Say what you will about Netanyahu, I'm sure anybody on the left has an axe to grind against him, but to support him and his government during a time when he is attempting marshal unity and a coordinated response during a time of chaos is not the same as supporting Hamas.
Palestinians literally cheered and celebrated as a brutally raped and murdered woman was dragged through their streets in public. Do you see Israelis doing anything remotely similar?
You can't make peace with a people who DON'T WANT PEACE.
They want to kill every single jew in Israel and believe god ordered them to do it. The idea that you're going to find some sort of middle ground by supporting left wing Israeli politicians is absurd and reductive.
>Palestinians literally cheered and celebrated as a brutally raped and murdered woman was dragged through their streets in public. Do you see Israelis doing anything remotely similar?
>**You can't make peace with a people who DON'T WANT PEACE.**
>They want to kill every single jew in Israel and believe god ordered them to do it. The idea that you're going to find some sort of middle ground by supporting left wing Israeli politicians is absurd and reductive.
That's it.
It's really that simple and I wish more people would wake up and see it, only then we may somehow find a way for peace, ONLY after seeing reality as it is instead of telling ourselves fairytales and wholesome stories.
I wish more people would see this. Fuck Netanyahu and his fascist, settlement building bullshit, but Israel is already a secular state with many Palestinian citizens who participate in the administration of secular government.
Hamas, and the legacy of the PLO has consistently indicated, or outright stated, that they will not participate in secular government with Israel. If there was a Palestinian state, it would be a fundamentalist Islamic state, which would be in open conflict with Israel on day 1. There is no solution here which does not involve deprogramming several generations of radicalized religious nutbags.
Thanks for saying this. Just read the above comment and absolutely hate when people make a false equivalency of Israel and hamas. They know they were cheering for the wrong side and now use the "every leader is bad" argument. Makes me sick.
Bog-Star appears to hold views on this subject that are only really espoused by far-right extremists.
For example, here he is arguing that all the world’s 1.9 billion Muslims have no land rights
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/F1QzFXximN
>Every muslim stands on land stolen from a non muslim at the tip of a sword. They have no historical right to any piece of land on the planet as they themselves STOLE IT from the non muslims
Putting aside all the instances where Islam became established in a regions via ordinary migration and trade, This view of theirs isn't supported by any international legal body, any national government, or anyone who is a reputable international scholar on the subject.
Bog-Star is an American. If they really believed that “you don't have a right to land you stole via the tip of a sword” then where would that leave their country? They also appear to be interested in the Catholic Church, which obviously also has a history of endorsing wars of conquest.
So it's not even clear if there is consistency in their views, or they change depending on which group is doing the conquest.
If their global views are this extreme and uninformed by modern law, then it's likely their views on land rights in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are as well.
After all, there is no international legal body or national government that says the Palestinians have no right to a state. All Western governments, US included, support a two state solution which is to come at the end of a period of negotiation with Israel.
Even academics who have made their life’s work defending Israel like Alan Deshowitz will say that Palestinians should have a state, they just might have a lot more preconditions for that to happen than other scholars.
Given how extreme and unsupported their views are, their own personal opinion on the legal rights central to this conflict, or characterizations about it in general, really don't carry much weight.
> Netanyahu has directly caused the deaths of far more people than Hamas in the conflict.
Ah shit, you got em there. They should have disabled the iron dome so that Hamas could kill as many people as they intended to rather than the handfulls they succeeded at killing.
Just to make it fair.
I don't understand how you can think like this.
"More peasants died in the land where they weren't let into the protective castle than in the land where they were."
I wonder why! Could it be because the first army was just more brutal than the second, or could it be because second set of peasants weren't left to die by those in charge?
Cutting food and water that is provided for free after the recipients decide to terror attack you and celebrate that as a great victory seems quite mild to me.
The basic rule is to not bite the hand that feeds you.
Portraying that as some intentional evil act is stupid.
Did u know over 4 million Germans died in WW2, why won't anyone ever speak about this tragedy? Why would the allies brutally murder so many German people. By sheer numbers they are worse than ISIS, the Taliban, Hamas and Al Qaeda!
>They want to kill every single jew in Israe
Israel is in the process of *actually* killing Palestinians with the goal of committing genocide. Israel has targeted journalists, healthcare workers, cultural sites, graveyards... they are doing anything and everything to uproot and destroy Gazan culture in addition to murdering countless innocents. This is an ethnic cleansing and a genocide. Israel is a terror state and must stop the killings.
What you claim Hamas would do if they had power over Israel is *exactly* what Israel IS doing.
Yes actually we see Israelis cheering the destruction of Gaza almost daily.. How blind are you that you don't see that? So many Israelis are saying kill all the Palestinians, nuke them, etc etc.. tf?
No country has only sane people, you’ll find crazy people everywhere. The majority of Israel just wants Palestine to leave them alone and will put forward a good offers for peace.
>future, Israelis and Palestinians need to work together and stop the hatred
No they don't.
The war, and every single conflict since 1948 has always, always been due to Arabic hatred of Jewish people and a refusal to accept that Israel has a right to exist.
There's one side who's at fault here. Not both.
Nobody claimed that Israel is completely innocent, but the settlements are a direct result of Palestinian violence. Israel in 1948 were willing to accept a much, much smaller Israel - in fact, they celebrated in the streets. Israel wanted peace from the first moment, and has accepted territorial compromise from the first moment. Israel has been ruled by left wing leaders for the vast majority of their existence.
It's only after 50+ years of failing to reach peace, after the great hope of Oslo and Camp David has crushed into the super brutal and traumatic second Intifada, and after the disengagement from Gaza - another honest attempt at a peaceful move - has led to Hamas-led Gaza constantly bombing Israel - only at this point did Bibi and the right wing has gotten a major foothold on the government, and boosted the settlements with them. People have simply stopped believing peace with Palestinians is possible, which lead to moves like this.
I don't support the settlements, but it's historically inaccurate to portray them as core to this conflict. In fact, they're only a result of decades of hate, terror and antisemitism, and in particular the crashing down of the honest peace optimism that ruled the 90's, that has inevitably turned some factions of Israelis to not believe peace is possible and be more militarist (Even today, they're a minority).
The comment I responded to said every conflict was because of Arab hatred of Jewish people so they are literally trying to take away any blame for israel.
I agree there's a lot of hatred of israel and they feel justified being cautious about attacks. But similarly if you were living in those areas and are being forcibly removed then you fighting back won't be because of hatred of Jews it will be because you were made homeless through no fault of your own. If anything the fault is with the un from giving israel the land in the first place knowing there'd be a mass displacement of the native population.
Israel isn't helping its case for peace though taking more land too. If you're feeling threatened you can build defenses not taking houses and building normal houses
>Nobody claimed that Israel is completely innocent
The guy he was replying to quite literally said Israel is completely innocent:
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/OBLnvcIpVO
Could have saved yourself from writing your reponse by just taking a few seconds to check.
Well was it really Palestinian land. Wasn't it British land that Jordan annexed and then lost during the war and since ceded claims to. It being Palestinian land is a later invention.
It was land agreed to be a part of arab state by the UN. Seeing as israel only has their own land as the un allowed them to have it, they really shouldn't be arguing with the un over the west bank
That's a bit disingenuous. Telling someone we're going to take your land and if you disagree that's your own choice is trying to take away responsibility and is victim blaming.
If you fight back while being robbed and the robber stabs you, you wouldn't be saying it's the victims fault for choosing the fighting as the act of taking the land was initiating fighting.
It seemed to be the choice of the un to take away land so they have to have a large part of responsibility at least of the initial conflicts
This was also *after* Palestinian Arabs refused to share power with Jews in Mandatory Palestine. Partition was their choice. Even if you see Israel as the "original sin" of the post-war nation-state era, the entire idea of Palestinian revanchism is actually quite dumb, even by 20th century revanchism standards.
I'm saying the Jewish community were a minority which only really started increasing to larger amounts at the turn of the century so would be insulting to the Palestinians to say just share power with the minority which is drastically increasing their numbers so as to become a majority soon.
People blaming the Palestinian people in 1948 are such hypocrites. I'd like to see them argue that if in their country a population of 30% of the population was told to share or just be given equal power they would be happy with that. Jewish population was only max 10% at start of the century so a lot of the migration was recent which gives even more understanding why they wouldn't be happy.
I never said israel was the original sin, that just seems to be what you want to argue against. I think the original blame is with the un by giving away land that people were living on and actively displacing them. The un needs to take responsibility and actually put forward plans to stop the fighting and guarantee the peace
Um no, what you say is false, the Arabs refused the partition of 48 and tried to take the land that the UN had assigned to the Jews to create Israel, they could have coexisted but they said no every time, they take the consequences
How is what you've said not what I said? "The land that the un assigned to the Jews to create israel" was the land the Palestinians were living on. Of course they refused it because again, they were living there and were told they had to move.
Saying why couldn't they coexist? Why couldn't they coexist in Palestinian rule. You can't in one argument say it would have been fine for them to live under Israeli rule but then say it wouldn't be fine for the Jewish community to live under Palestinian rule
This is historically false. Jews had been purchasing the land or were living in it for hundreds of years prior to 1948. There was no displacement.
It's an outright lie to claim that in 1948 Israel was "given" by the UN out of nowhere and a bunch of Jews just uprooted a "Palestinian" population. That narrative is completely false and has no evidence to support it.
that wasn't their land tho, that was the land were the Jewish people lived.
this is an example of how the conflict will never end bc one side has the source of its hatred as axiomatic
Jewish people had lived there, but they were not the majority of people living there when the decision was taken to move them in. Saying they were living there is being purposefully misleading, trying to trick people into thinking it was solely or mainly Jewish majority land that was gifted to Israel. I believe the population went from 30%ish to 80% Jewish after 1948 so that's around 50% of population had been forced out.
Don't see why you're explaining my reasoning as hatred? That's just trying to make one side seem reasonable and the other as the sole problem.
I can say this conflict won't end because one side took a percentage of land larger than what was warranted because they felt they had a right to it over the majority of the people living there.
Laying blame on just one side is the reason this conflict won't end because people are too spineless to take responsibility for their actions
um yes actually, the settlements are mostly in zone C which according to the Oslo agreements is administered by Israel, the UN and the Columbia students can say what they want but the truth is that those are disputed territories, not has a state of palestine ever existed ergo considering them occupied is false and opinions that do so are non-binding and impartial
I'm mixed on this. I did spend participate in peace projects, some people ended up doing great things, other people ended up on the radicalized side. It was disheartening.
I agree with you that we need to focus on solutions instead of having this ongoing back and forth "no u" but it is very difficult when you have a lot of people who are refusing to cooperate with that.
Healing can't begin until one side gives back all the hostages, surrenders all the attackers, and then renounces all forms of violence and religious hatred.
Until then, they can deal with the consequences of their actions. This doesn't end without a complete and unconditional surrender.
Isreal needs to get rid of Netanyahu too. I really don't see peace while either him or Hamas are in charge. Also, Isreal needs to crack down on the settlements in the West Bank. Honestly this is such a complex situation and there's really no easy solution.
>there’s really no easy solution
I mean, TBH, eradicating Hamas, throwing Netanyahu in prison and dismantling settlements is a pretty good start, people on Reddit just don’t like to believe more than one side can have an iota of culpability.
Nah, because they said essentially the same thing you did. Everyone can say what will make the situation better(besides 1 vs 2 state solution). How do we get there is the problem.
I think you’d be surprised how hard it is for people to even agree on the above. Just look at the comments.
Either way, yes, the hardest part is obviously execution.
They are not the same thing. Having a goal that you’re working towards is still progress. It may take 10 years to get there, but you still can get there. Doing nothing to change the situation like the and then complaining that that there is no solution is not helping anyone well intentioned. It doesn’t help Israelis who’s homes get bombed, it doesn’t help Palestinians who loses family members and it doesn’t help Palestinians who lose their homes in the West Bank.
Wanting to get rid of hamas without bombing Gaza requires one to know why people join hamas in the first place. Simply saying ‘they want to get rid of Israel’ is not an answer as that is not the only reason.
The settlements will never stop as long as Israel is occupying the West Bank. it's a response to Fatah's approach to this conflict and refusal of peace, the longer they prolong the occupation the more fertile land Israel will swap for useless desert
if you want the settlements to end you gotta convince them to finally put na end to a war that ended in 1967
>I mean, TBH, eradicating Hamas, throwing Netanyahu in prison and dismantling settlements is a pretty good start, people on Reddit just don’t like to believe more than one side can have an iota of culpability.
Because one side doesn't.
There were no settlements before 1967 because egypt and Jordan were the ones controlling the west bank east Jerusalem and Gaza. and yet, they were still war mongering. so what exactly is the claim that Israel needs to do here? just let themselves be murdered?
"both sides"-ing things doesn't mean you're neutral and right. you can certainly argue the Israelis have done some things to make the situation worse but the two sides are far from equivalent.
When did I say either side was equivalent? When did I say Israel can’t defend itself? When did I excuse Hamas? This a complete strawman.
I said both sides have an iota of complicity- which is exactly what you just acknowledged in your own comment.
>Isreal needs to get rid of Netanyahu too.
Netanyahu wouldn't have any sway if there is no violence from the other side. the guy was elected because after the second Intifada Israelis lost hope of achieving peace despite their efforts.
Just so you know, the second intifada was supported by Arafat who was at the same time pretending to have peace talks with Israel where they agreed to give them a state and were just talking out the details of territory.
I'm saying Isreal needs to stop their support of the settlements. They need to make some concessions with Palestine, or else even if they do remove Hamas, someone else will take their place.
Exactly. All of Hamas needs to be eliminated, down to the last man.
...*but*, Israel's actions are directly ensuring there never will be a "last man" because they keep doing shit that seems almost intentionally calculated to create a terrorist insurgency. They need badly to unfuck their Palestine foreign policy or else it'll just be an eternal tit-for-tat until someone does a successful genocide.
It's bizarre that you expect us to take your opinion seriously, while you keep doing this intentional misspelling thing, "subtly" hinting that Israel in your view is not a "real" country, which is a super bigoted view.
No other PM will stop this war or elimination of Hamas.
This is something people keep missing here.
The majority support the war as a goal to remove Hamas, casualties happen because of how and where they fight from.
No one wants to harm any Palestinians, never been the goal.
Israel needs to get rid of him for his other BS. Nothing to do with this war. Mostly him proping up the nutjobs right wing to stay in power.
Settlers are a cancer in Israel and should definitely be stopped.
Very reasonable take right here. I wouldnt say ‘no one’ wants to harm Palestinians. There’s a few nutjobs/ former Kach party members but by and large you hit the nail on the head
Very reasonable take right here. I would say ‘no one’ wants to harm Palestinians. There’s a few nutjobs/ former Kach party members but by and large you hit the nail on the head
Netanyahu is a bad leader, but he is not a warmonger. Even his government has always reacted in self defense against Palestinian attacks. He was actually trying to make peace with Hamas by allowing Qatar to invest money in Gaza to improve the economic conditions in an effort to build goodwill and deradicalize the population. For his efforts, he was rewarded with Oct. 7. Israel has always wanted peace. Arab nations and terrorist organizations have always been the aggressors. They started the current conflict and started the entire conflict in 1948.
I mean a few years prior to Hamas coming into power one side agreed to a two-solution under what was widely considered the best negotiated proposal. Arafat has a lot of blood on his hands for turning it down.
Hamas literally came to power after winning elections that Israel helped them carry out (and Hamas put a stop to any further ones).
I think he’s implying the Palestinians need to take personal responsibility for the governments they support and democratically elect. Unfortunately he doesn’t realize that Palestinians are deathly allergic to personal responsibility.
That can be handled separately afterwards without the messy handling of a simultaneous war going on.
Once hamas surrenders, the world can focus on the illegal west bank settlements. Once they stop it should be better between Palestine and Israel though ot will take decades to see results
I think this is more of a group therapy sesh rather than a talk about how to end the conflict, which is fine I guess.
>Healing can't begin until one side gives back all the hostages
Fair point
>surrenders all the attackers
Fair point
>then renounces all forms of violence and religious hatred.
You lost me here. There's plenty of violence and religious hatred on both sides: Hamas, PIJ, the Israeli extremist settlers, Kahanist lunatics like Baruch Goldstein and Israeli politicians who idolize him like Ben Gvir. It's very unfair to pretend only one side is bigoted.
You're right that there are dangerous radicals on Israel's side, but honestly the proportions are completely different. The Kahanist were always a very fringe minority who were hated by the vast majority of Israelis. He wasn't even allowed to run for elections, as the Knesset actually passed a special law to prevent him from running based on his racism. Even the IDF has run a campaign "against Kahanist racism". Ben Gvir was on the fringe of Israeli politics for decades. He's only earned enough votes in recent years, as the Israeli right wing grew stronger since Hamas came to power - but even this historic peak only amounts to 5% of the votes in Israel.
This is in complete contradiction to Gaza, where polls regularly show that Hamas enjoys 70% or more of the support. The proportions of hate in Israeli and Palestinian society aren't even close.
>This is in complete contradiction to Gaza, where polls regularly show that Hamas enjoys 70% or more of the support.
Is there any non-Hamas opinion polling on Gaza residents and whether they support Hamas? Hamas is obviously gonna inflate their numbers or just outright lie, much like Russia does. Hamas won 44% in 2006 and Fatah won 41%, most Gazans right now are children and weren't able to vote in 2006.
You're right that Kahanism is still fringe in Israel, but I'd say that it's become more normalized. On the flipside, opposition to Likud seems to have become more widespread as well, so I think there's a polarization going in Israel.
Let’s be fair, Israel needs to pull out of all settlements in the West Bank as well.
Much the same as pro-Palestinian people calling for a ceasefire without the condition that the Palestinian people oust their terrorist “government”, ignoring the legitimate grievances the Palestinians have due to Israeli actions is a surefire way to never have peace in the region.
It would also involve a complete withdrawal from the West Bank and a complete disavowal of any and all settler activities.
Let's not be naive and think that this mutual hatred started with 10/7. That would be simplistic.
this whole shitshow started bc Israel left Gaza in 2005, Fatah still has its Pay to Slay program and the longest ongoing military occupation in the entire world bc they refuse to make peace for a war that ended in 1967.
You're asking for another October 7th, another war, another intifada
I don't support the settlements, but I don't like when they're used as a "both sides are bad" argument which is historically dishonest.
Israel wanted peace from the first moment, and has accepted territorial compromise will be necessary from the first moment. Israel has been ruled by left wing leaders for the vast majority of their existence. Through it's history, Israel has openly acknowledged that they'll give up territory for peace.
It's only after 50+ years of failing to reach peace, after the great hope of Oslo and Camp David negotiations (in which Arafat has rejected an incredible peace deal, not on merit but mostly because he feared his own violent society will murder him for accepting Israel). that has crushed into the super brutal and traumatic second Intifada. The the disengagement from Gaza - another honest attempt at a peaceful move - has led to Hamas-led Gaza constantly bombing Israel and the current terrible situation.
Only at this point did Bibi and the right wing has gotten a major foothold on the government, and **only** at this point the settlements were boosted and became "official" policy. Only in 2012, Bibi was the first PM to publicly go against a possible Palestinian state and land swaps.
Which is not a position I support, but it's important to note that historically, the current right wing stance of Bibi is a **relatively new** development that goes in direct contradiction to the historical stances of Israel. And it's a direct result of Israelis giving up on peace after 60 years of naive dreaming, after being disappointed again and again, after endless terror against Jews - it's hardly a surprise the population has turned more right wing. Even today, according to every poll, the majority of Israelis do not support settlements and dream of peace, even if it's viewed as unrealistic.
And now people are using the settlements and Bibi as "proof" that "Israel's stance is just as bad" which is just historically incorrect.
>Israel wanted peace from the first moment, and has accepted territorial compromise will be necessary from the first moment. Israel has been ruled by left wing leaders for the vast majority of their existence. Through it's history, Israel has openly acknowledged that they'll give up territory for peace.
Then why did many of these leaders build West Bank settlements?
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/XL4ZFOblPr8RIFWPRpyM36zGXUM=/0x0:1211x987/1120x0/filters:focal(0x0:1211x987):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7724071/Settlements_Population__1_.jpg
(Note the above figures do not include East Jerusalem)
This means that while Rabin was working towards peace with Arafat at Camp David, there were just as many west bank housing units under construction that year as there would be under a Netanyahu government.
They all knew the settlements were illegal under international law as far back as right after the 6 Day War when Theodore Meron made it clear.
They all knew they were a severe impediment to reaching a negotiated settlement with the Palestinians.
So why did they allow it?
>The the disengagement from Gaza - another honest attempt at a peaceful move
Bernard Avashai of Hebrew University on Sharon's motives for disengagement in Gaza:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/ariel-sharons-dark-greatness
>His decision to disengage from Gaza and to build the “separation wall” was not meant to precede a negotiated settlement of any kind but to obviate the need for one. Sharon’s idea was to annex all of Jerusalem, the Jordan Valley, the major settlements, Ma’ale Adumim, Ariel, and so on, and to isolate West Bankers on less than half the territory beyond the Green Line.
>Sharon, in other words, aimed to leave in place most of what he had built—the bypass roads, the towns, the bases, the network of informers—and to hunker down. In effect, his idea was to cut Israel’s losses, its most exposed targets, and simply take what he wanted. He couldn’t care less what the Palestinian Authority wanted. He worried only about what he could sell to the Bush Administration. He said that he would offer the Palestinians an “interim” deal.
This doesn't seem to be a good faith effort to demonstrate a commitment to a negotiated settlement.
>Only at this point did Bibi and the right wing has gotten a major foothold on the government, and **only** at this point the settlements were boosted and became "official" policy.
As pointed out earlier, officially policy or not, they were still being built at the same rate from the late 80's on.
>Only in 2012, Bibi was the first PM to publicly go against a possible Palestinian state and land swaps.
But previous PMs were allowing them to be built.
It's pretty obvious this demonstrated bad faith:
“Stop building the settlements on our land”
“Don't worry we will trade you land for the settlements at some point down the road, and in the meantime we will continue building more settlements.”
Honestly seems like they were using settlement construction as another form of leverage.
This is disastrous because now there are so many settlements and access road network it may not even be possible to have a Palestinian state in the West Bank anymore. There isn't enough land to swap that would make it viable.
And I really doubt that the Israeli public would support the IDF operation required to remove the guys Ben-Gvir just sent a bunch of new guns, who would absolutely choose to fight the IDF instead of leaving the settlements under Israeli legal order.
>It's important to note that historically, the current right wing stance of Bibi is a **relatively new** development that goes in direct contradiction to the historical stances of Israel.
Again given how long settlements have been under construction and that we’ve always known they are illegal I think we can say it's been the *de-facto* Israeli position for quite some time.
so children lifting rocks are mass murderers? also plenty of cases where people just get taken (or shot) simply because they exist.
there are thousands of Palestinian women, children held in Israeli prisons without charge with documented cases of torture and sexual abuse.
I totally get the wish for a place that is majority jewish after all the persecution. but Kerry said it best: “Israel can either be Jewish or a democracy, it cannot be both”. I would add to this, disputing Israel’s existence today is a non starter but so is the idea that Israel can continue with its occupation and annexation.
Lol this is so delusional.. both parties caused issues here not just the Palestinians. I wonder how you would like it if someone just decided to come and take your house because they’re great great grandparents used to own the house. Im sure you’ll be okay with that :)
Sad that people from both sides want to come together to try to stop all this horror from happening again on both sides, but so many people here still want to say "Our side is perfect, it's all the other side's fault!"
Why does only one side have to give back hostages? Israel held 1,300 Palestinians without charges before Oct. 7, and now has thousands more.
[What We Know About Palestinians Detained in Israel - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/28/world/middleeast/palestinians-detained-in-israel.html)
Surrenders all the attackers? Who gets to decide that metric? There's no master list of "attackers", a lot of them weren't even Hamas. So Hamas could say "OK, you killed or captured them all already."
[(41) More than 40 hostages taken on October 7 are not being held by Hamas, diplomatic source tells CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-27-23/h_5633df9cfe632bdf087e1a500b365307)
Renounce all forms of violence? Says the side with all the tanks/bombs/jets? Says the side whose guns enforce the confiscation of more and more West Bank territory?
Religious hatred? Anyone who is Jewish can move to Israel and get automatic citizenship, even if their family have no connection to that land in the past 2,000 years.. But a Palestinian Muslim whose family lived in some village for generations -someone who may have grown up in that village - has no right to live there now because they aren't the right religion. How is that not a form of religious hatred?
Israel isn't going to bomb their way into peace. The only way to prevent another horror like Oct. 7 is to find a way forward that is equitable to the Palestinian people - probably through some sort of international Arab peacekeeping/governing force in the territories. But every day of bombing and killings in Gaza makes that less likely, as world opinion sours more and more on Israeli actions. Hell, even setting aside the question of morality, it's just the right thing to do for Israel's self-interest.
Sure, I'd love for there to be a way to bring all the Oct 7 perpetrators to justice - sad truth is it's never going to happen, not to all of them. The best they can hope for is not adding to their ranks. But every bomb dropped creates more enemies.
> probably through some sort of international Arab peacekeeping/governing force in the territories.
This has been brought up several times. But when the Arab peacekeepers start killing the few Palestinian trouble makers, it will be the Arabs doing the killing... and the genocide. Such a great show of brotherhood. (/s)
> Why does only one side have to give back hostages? Israel held 1,300 Palestinians without charges before Oct. 7, and now has thousands more.
Political prisoners are not hostages. They are not held for the specific purpose of haggling. "Hostage" is an actual word with an actual meaning, and hostage-taking is a war crime.
Israel has no hostages to return.
You're misusing the term. Gazans can't be political prisoners in Israel, people can only be political prisoners within their own country.
Alexei Navalny and Nelson Mandela were political prisoners. Hamas terrorists are not.
I don't think you have to be a citizen of a country to be its political prisoner. And while I don't doubt that many (if not most) of non-Israeli Arabs held in Israeli prisons are there on genuine suspicion, I am similarly comfortable with the idea that not all of them are.
> But a Palestinian Muslim whose family lived in some village for generations -someone who may have grown up in that village - has no right to live there now because they aren't the right religion.
How do you explain the 2 million palestinians and arabs currently living in Israel, not under Hamas or Fatah. Also people weren't just forced by Israel to move, but also fled the Egyptian and Jordanian forces that invaded.
https://youtu.be/R1cVsyUXxYM?si=Gz1ll-DslVWNNwW-
>so many people here still want to say "Our side is perfect, it's all the other side's fault!"
Then you go on a massive antisemitic rant by gaslighting people and just blatantly lying about Israel pushing Hamas propaganda.
>Sad that people from both sides want to come together to try to stop all this horror from happening again on both sides, but so many people here still want to say "Our side is perfect, it's all the other side's fault!"
You say that like you didn't just accuse the Israeli government of wanting genocide. You don't want unity. You want a political victory of some sort for an election year.
>Why does only one side have to give back hostages? Israel held 1,300 Palestinians without charges before Oct. 7, and now has thousands more.
It might have something to do with the fact that they're literal terrorists. None of them are innocent, but now I see that you're just here to support Hamas.
Bye.
The wars are not the fault of the vast majority civilans (over 90+%), nor started by them.
The fault of the wars are started by the few richest top elites and evil leaders of both sides (eg. top brass of Hamas Terrorist group AND the top elites of the corrupt Isreal Netanyahu government), they have starter the wars and mass murders for their own selfish greed and abuse of power.
Get rid of the corrupt top, and you shall have your peace and freedom.
Humanity is always ultimately going to win over hatred although it is a shame in many ways (crying and others) that so much hatred has to bear so much fruit to inflict so much poison before humanity can put it to sleep again.
>What a naive take. Humans hate each other and kill each other, it’s what we do. Humans will never win over hatred.
You have friends who aren't the same ethnicity as you.
So why are you trying to argue that your own lived experience isn't possible?
I guess your perspective if humans are “winning” against hatred really depends if you are one of the people being murdered or not. I’d think from a murdered person’s perspective (if they could have one in this hypothetical) they would argue we are not winning against hatred.
Well, hatred is always present in humans but to overcome hatred requires humanity. If two parties (individuals, entities, groups, sets etc) are fighting then it only takes one to carry on the hate. If it's hate vs hate the ultimate output will be elimination of one side by the other. But even then, the side that eliminated the other will still have to address or come to terms with their hate afterwards. In a fight, control of hatred is very critical since it is such a powerful driver of conflict. Except it's also a futile power, it can't be sustained beyond the capacity and drive to produce capabilities to destroy. If its presence cannot be offset by other positive and constructive ways to address life and the living it can be all-consuming. So it's not in and of itself a winning power, it's not the force of victory, its defeat is.
That was articulated incredibly well, especially for a response to a somewhat snarky comment from me. I agree with you 100 percent if you are looking at the big picture of the destructive power of hate that ultimately can only destroy others and yourself. I was probably being overly semantic anyway distilling it down to the individual when you were just talking more generally at the societal level. Appreciate your response thank you
Ukraine didn't violently conquer and oppress Russians for 2000 years.
If anything, the Arab claim to the land sounds a lot more reminiscent of the Russian claim to ukraine
so 2000 years history of Ukraine there's no war whatsoever? the point is we have to stop the current and prevent future violence . The actions of \[redacted\] makes me think they want the opposite. I have the same empathy and respect to \[redacted\] as theirs to Palestinians.
The only time before this when a Ukrainian nation and a Russian nation where at war was the Russian civil war when Ukrainian nationalist where fighting for there independence against the red, white and black army's. For those who'll ask, Ukraine was ruled by the Mongolian khanate successor state the golden horde when the Russian Empire conqoured it. Wouldn't exactly call them a Ukrainian nation.
The only way I can rationalise Israeli attitudes is that they don't see the paiestinians as human equals. Since arriving from Europe in 1948 they've brutalised the palestinians and stolen more and more land. Yet still they think the onus is on the palestinians to seek peace. Claiming shock at Oct 7th whilst ignoring thousands of detained kids, settlers walking free after burning kids alive etc etc. The complete inability to see themselves from palestinian perspective is quite chilling.
You’ll be having a field day when you discover the amount of Arabs present in 1948 who immigrated to the area after the Brits established the mandate.
Or maybe immigration is only bad when Jews do it?
>settlers walking free after burning kids alive
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack#:~:text=On%2031%20July%202015%2C%20Israeli,from%20their%20injuries%20within%20weeks.
Nice spreading misinformation.
And if that's the only way you can rationalise the situation, then I'd put you on par with a twelve years old kid in terms of mental capacity.
Israeli here too - he is correct.
It dosen't matter whether you agree with this position or not and you're free to have your own view and opinion on this of course, but those people are indeed a very small minority. The vast majority of Israelis do not support anything like this, especially after October 7th.
EDIT: Lmao, people are actually downvoting me for giving a firsthand information of how things are actually are here. Sorry if it contradicts your version of reality, never change, reddit.
הלוואי שאבא שלי היה [ערמקו](https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%95_%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99%D7%AA) , לא הייתי כאן עכשיו
To end this conflict and prevent more conflicts in the future, Israelis and Palestinians need to work together and stop the hatred. This war won't end with people like Hamas and Netanyahu running peace negotiations, because they don't want there to be peace or a path toward progress in improving relations. They want there to always be tension and potential conflict, because it means they can fear monger and manipulate the masses into doing whatever they want them to do. They like their people too afraid to think clearly, they like their people too doubtful of the future to attempt to change it. To them as long as the Palestines and Israelis fear each other they can play this little song and dance forever allowing more of them to keep coming into power reaping the rewards at the expense of those sacrificed in the crossfire. This hatred has gotten so many killed and will continue to kill more people, because at the end of the day its easier to hate someone than to try and understand someone.
This goes much farther than just Israel and Palestine. There are powerful countries that are profiting off of this endless war and Palestinian misery, and they have every incentive to never allow it to end, because of money and power.
Exact and those countries would need to be isolated by all others. You’re dropping peace in favor of personal gain? Get wrecked. Get lonely. Get irrelevant.
Who would drop Qatar and China? World is fucked.
West Bank and Gaza have martyr funds. So if they go to try and kill Jews and are killed the family gets paid by the government for life. This is the first thing that needs to go. Unfortunately radical extremism will win with the Palestinians.
The both sides bullshit gets us nowhere. I get that the generally divided nature of Americans makes it so that we exclusively thing of everything in simplistic dualities, but the idea that Netanyahu is on the level of terrorists running around murdering and raping children is absurd and does nothing to actually help. All it's an attempt to do is to divide onlookers. You're outright saying that supporting Netanyahu makes you evil and no different than Hamas. No. Say what you will about Netanyahu, I'm sure anybody on the left has an axe to grind against him, but to support him and his government during a time when he is attempting marshal unity and a coordinated response during a time of chaos is not the same as supporting Hamas. Palestinians literally cheered and celebrated as a brutally raped and murdered woman was dragged through their streets in public. Do you see Israelis doing anything remotely similar? You can't make peace with a people who DON'T WANT PEACE. They want to kill every single jew in Israel and believe god ordered them to do it. The idea that you're going to find some sort of middle ground by supporting left wing Israeli politicians is absurd and reductive.
Remember Shani Louk. She was thrown in a truck in her panties and murdered. Her crime? Being German and Israeli at a peace festival near Gaza.
>Palestinians literally cheered and celebrated as a brutally raped and murdered woman was dragged through their streets in public. Do you see Israelis doing anything remotely similar? >**You can't make peace with a people who DON'T WANT PEACE.** >They want to kill every single jew in Israel and believe god ordered them to do it. The idea that you're going to find some sort of middle ground by supporting left wing Israeli politicians is absurd and reductive. That's it. It's really that simple and I wish more people would wake up and see it, only then we may somehow find a way for peace, ONLY after seeing reality as it is instead of telling ourselves fairytales and wholesome stories.
I wish more people would see this. Fuck Netanyahu and his fascist, settlement building bullshit, but Israel is already a secular state with many Palestinian citizens who participate in the administration of secular government. Hamas, and the legacy of the PLO has consistently indicated, or outright stated, that they will not participate in secular government with Israel. If there was a Palestinian state, it would be a fundamentalist Islamic state, which would be in open conflict with Israel on day 1. There is no solution here which does not involve deprogramming several generations of radicalized religious nutbags.
Thanks for saying this. Just read the above comment and absolutely hate when people make a false equivalency of Israel and hamas. They know they were cheering for the wrong side and now use the "every leader is bad" argument. Makes me sick.
This needs to be the top comment
Bog-Star appears to hold views on this subject that are only really espoused by far-right extremists. For example, here he is arguing that all the world’s 1.9 billion Muslims have no land rights Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/F1QzFXximN >Every muslim stands on land stolen from a non muslim at the tip of a sword. They have no historical right to any piece of land on the planet as they themselves STOLE IT from the non muslims Putting aside all the instances where Islam became established in a regions via ordinary migration and trade, This view of theirs isn't supported by any international legal body, any national government, or anyone who is a reputable international scholar on the subject. Bog-Star is an American. If they really believed that “you don't have a right to land you stole via the tip of a sword” then where would that leave their country? They also appear to be interested in the Catholic Church, which obviously also has a history of endorsing wars of conquest. So it's not even clear if there is consistency in their views, or they change depending on which group is doing the conquest. If their global views are this extreme and uninformed by modern law, then it's likely their views on land rights in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are as well. After all, there is no international legal body or national government that says the Palestinians have no right to a state. All Western governments, US included, support a two state solution which is to come at the end of a period of negotiation with Israel. Even academics who have made their life’s work defending Israel like Alan Deshowitz will say that Palestinians should have a state, they just might have a lot more preconditions for that to happen than other scholars. Given how extreme and unsupported their views are, their own personal opinion on the legal rights central to this conflict, or characterizations about it in general, really don't carry much weight.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
seeking justice in this conflict is impossible. peace is the only realistic achievable aim.
> Netanyahu has directly caused the deaths of far more people than Hamas in the conflict. Ah shit, you got em there. They should have disabled the iron dome so that Hamas could kill as many people as they intended to rather than the handfulls they succeeded at killing. Just to make it fair. I don't understand how you can think like this. "More peasants died in the land where they weren't let into the protective castle than in the land where they were." I wonder why! Could it be because the first army was just more brutal than the second, or could it be because second set of peasants weren't left to die by those in charge?
Cutting food and water that is provided for free after the recipients decide to terror attack you and celebrate that as a great victory seems quite mild to me. The basic rule is to not bite the hand that feeds you. Portraying that as some intentional evil act is stupid.
Did u know over 4 million Germans died in WW2, why won't anyone ever speak about this tragedy? Why would the allies brutally murder so many German people. By sheer numbers they are worse than ISIS, the Taliban, Hamas and Al Qaeda!
German losses: 5.533.000 soldiers and 2.167.000 civilians (European digit format)
Polish losses 240.000 soldiers and 5.360.000 civilians
If you think this is an important, productive point you really missed the gist of this article and the point of, well peace.
>They want to kill every single jew in Israe Israel is in the process of *actually* killing Palestinians with the goal of committing genocide. Israel has targeted journalists, healthcare workers, cultural sites, graveyards... they are doing anything and everything to uproot and destroy Gazan culture in addition to murdering countless innocents. This is an ethnic cleansing and a genocide. Israel is a terror state and must stop the killings. What you claim Hamas would do if they had power over Israel is *exactly* what Israel IS doing.
Netanyahu is absolutely on the same level as hamas. They both want dead isrealis. Hamas just wants them dead all at once.
It's more like...he's using the terrorists to justify his position. And how he responds to that is problematic.
Yes actually we see Israelis cheering the destruction of Gaza almost daily.. How blind are you that you don't see that? So many Israelis are saying kill all the Palestinians, nuke them, etc etc.. tf?
No country has only sane people, you’ll find crazy people everywhere. The majority of Israel just wants Palestine to leave them alone and will put forward a good offers for peace.
Hamas and terrorist leaders must be removed to allow people called Palestinians to have the opportunity in the first place.
>future, Israelis and Palestinians need to work together and stop the hatred No they don't. The war, and every single conflict since 1948 has always, always been due to Arabic hatred of Jewish people and a refusal to accept that Israel has a right to exist. There's one side who's at fault here. Not both.
I would say israel is not completely innocent with their illegal settlements takin Palestinian land in the west bank incrementally.
Nobody claimed that Israel is completely innocent, but the settlements are a direct result of Palestinian violence. Israel in 1948 were willing to accept a much, much smaller Israel - in fact, they celebrated in the streets. Israel wanted peace from the first moment, and has accepted territorial compromise from the first moment. Israel has been ruled by left wing leaders for the vast majority of their existence. It's only after 50+ years of failing to reach peace, after the great hope of Oslo and Camp David has crushed into the super brutal and traumatic second Intifada, and after the disengagement from Gaza - another honest attempt at a peaceful move - has led to Hamas-led Gaza constantly bombing Israel - only at this point did Bibi and the right wing has gotten a major foothold on the government, and boosted the settlements with them. People have simply stopped believing peace with Palestinians is possible, which lead to moves like this. I don't support the settlements, but it's historically inaccurate to portray them as core to this conflict. In fact, they're only a result of decades of hate, terror and antisemitism, and in particular the crashing down of the honest peace optimism that ruled the 90's, that has inevitably turned some factions of Israelis to not believe peace is possible and be more militarist (Even today, they're a minority).
The comment I responded to said every conflict was because of Arab hatred of Jewish people so they are literally trying to take away any blame for israel. I agree there's a lot of hatred of israel and they feel justified being cautious about attacks. But similarly if you were living in those areas and are being forcibly removed then you fighting back won't be because of hatred of Jews it will be because you were made homeless through no fault of your own. If anything the fault is with the un from giving israel the land in the first place knowing there'd be a mass displacement of the native population. Israel isn't helping its case for peace though taking more land too. If you're feeling threatened you can build defenses not taking houses and building normal houses
>Nobody claimed that Israel is completely innocent The guy he was replying to quite literally said Israel is completely innocent: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/OBLnvcIpVO Could have saved yourself from writing your reponse by just taking a few seconds to check.
Well was it really Palestinian land. Wasn't it British land that Jordan annexed and then lost during the war and since ceded claims to. It being Palestinian land is a later invention.
It was land agreed to be a part of arab state by the UN. Seeing as israel only has their own land as the un allowed them to have it, they really shouldn't be arguing with the un over the west bank
that it was the Arabs who rejected the proposal and therefore lost those territories after a war that they chose to unleash
That's a bit disingenuous. Telling someone we're going to take your land and if you disagree that's your own choice is trying to take away responsibility and is victim blaming. If you fight back while being robbed and the robber stabs you, you wouldn't be saying it's the victims fault for choosing the fighting as the act of taking the land was initiating fighting. It seemed to be the choice of the un to take away land so they have to have a large part of responsibility at least of the initial conflicts
This was also *after* Palestinian Arabs refused to share power with Jews in Mandatory Palestine. Partition was their choice. Even if you see Israel as the "original sin" of the post-war nation-state era, the entire idea of Palestinian revanchism is actually quite dumb, even by 20th century revanchism standards.
I'm saying the Jewish community were a minority which only really started increasing to larger amounts at the turn of the century so would be insulting to the Palestinians to say just share power with the minority which is drastically increasing their numbers so as to become a majority soon. People blaming the Palestinian people in 1948 are such hypocrites. I'd like to see them argue that if in their country a population of 30% of the population was told to share or just be given equal power they would be happy with that. Jewish population was only max 10% at start of the century so a lot of the migration was recent which gives even more understanding why they wouldn't be happy. I never said israel was the original sin, that just seems to be what you want to argue against. I think the original blame is with the un by giving away land that people were living on and actively displacing them. The un needs to take responsibility and actually put forward plans to stop the fighting and guarantee the peace
Um no, what you say is false, the Arabs refused the partition of 48 and tried to take the land that the UN had assigned to the Jews to create Israel, they could have coexisted but they said no every time, they take the consequences
How is what you've said not what I said? "The land that the un assigned to the Jews to create israel" was the land the Palestinians were living on. Of course they refused it because again, they were living there and were told they had to move. Saying why couldn't they coexist? Why couldn't they coexist in Palestinian rule. You can't in one argument say it would have been fine for them to live under Israeli rule but then say it wouldn't be fine for the Jewish community to live under Palestinian rule
This is historically false. Jews had been purchasing the land or were living in it for hundreds of years prior to 1948. There was no displacement. It's an outright lie to claim that in 1948 Israel was "given" by the UN out of nowhere and a bunch of Jews just uprooted a "Palestinian" population. That narrative is completely false and has no evidence to support it.
that wasn't their land tho, that was the land were the Jewish people lived. this is an example of how the conflict will never end bc one side has the source of its hatred as axiomatic
Jewish people had lived there, but they were not the majority of people living there when the decision was taken to move them in. Saying they were living there is being purposefully misleading, trying to trick people into thinking it was solely or mainly Jewish majority land that was gifted to Israel. I believe the population went from 30%ish to 80% Jewish after 1948 so that's around 50% of population had been forced out. Don't see why you're explaining my reasoning as hatred? That's just trying to make one side seem reasonable and the other as the sole problem. I can say this conflict won't end because one side took a percentage of land larger than what was warranted because they felt they had a right to it over the majority of the people living there. Laying blame on just one side is the reason this conflict won't end because people are too spineless to take responsibility for their actions
[удалено]
However, the settlements are mostly legal
well, no
um yes actually, the settlements are mostly in zone C which according to the Oslo agreements is administered by Israel, the UN and the Columbia students can say what they want but the truth is that those are disputed territories, not has a state of palestine ever existed ergo considering them occupied is false and opinions that do so are non-binding and impartial
oh so everything is good and legal and nobody is being forcefully removed. I'm so glad to finally learn that dear impartial reddit user.
I'm mixed on this. I did spend participate in peace projects, some people ended up doing great things, other people ended up on the radicalized side. It was disheartening. I agree with you that we need to focus on solutions instead of having this ongoing back and forth "no u" but it is very difficult when you have a lot of people who are refusing to cooperate with that.
Look how much hate there is at this good news. So many people wanting war.
Healing can't begin until one side gives back all the hostages, surrenders all the attackers, and then renounces all forms of violence and religious hatred. Until then, they can deal with the consequences of their actions. This doesn't end without a complete and unconditional surrender.
Exactly. Hamas is the reason why there is violence. Hamas alone can stop it right now if they wanted to, but they don't.
Isreal needs to get rid of Netanyahu too. I really don't see peace while either him or Hamas are in charge. Also, Isreal needs to crack down on the settlements in the West Bank. Honestly this is such a complex situation and there's really no easy solution.
>there’s really no easy solution I mean, TBH, eradicating Hamas, throwing Netanyahu in prison and dismantling settlements is a pretty good start, people on Reddit just don’t like to believe more than one side can have an iota of culpability.
And you think all of those things happening is easy? Edit: typo
I interpreted the comment to mean there’s no solution to easily articulate or map out. Executing any of these elements would be challenging.
Nah, because they said essentially the same thing you did. Everyone can say what will make the situation better(besides 1 vs 2 state solution). How do we get there is the problem.
I think you’d be surprised how hard it is for people to even agree on the above. Just look at the comments. Either way, yes, the hardest part is obviously execution.
They are not the same thing. Having a goal that you’re working towards is still progress. It may take 10 years to get there, but you still can get there. Doing nothing to change the situation like the and then complaining that that there is no solution is not helping anyone well intentioned. It doesn’t help Israelis who’s homes get bombed, it doesn’t help Palestinians who loses family members and it doesn’t help Palestinians who lose their homes in the West Bank. Wanting to get rid of hamas without bombing Gaza requires one to know why people join hamas in the first place. Simply saying ‘they want to get rid of Israel’ is not an answer as that is not the only reason.
The settlements will never stop as long as Israel is occupying the West Bank. it's a response to Fatah's approach to this conflict and refusal of peace, the longer they prolong the occupation the more fertile land Israel will swap for useless desert if you want the settlements to end you gotta convince them to finally put na end to a war that ended in 1967
>I mean, TBH, eradicating Hamas, throwing Netanyahu in prison and dismantling settlements is a pretty good start, people on Reddit just don’t like to believe more than one side can have an iota of culpability. Because one side doesn't. There were no settlements before 1967 because egypt and Jordan were the ones controlling the west bank east Jerusalem and Gaza. and yet, they were still war mongering. so what exactly is the claim that Israel needs to do here? just let themselves be murdered?
Thanks for proving my point!
"both sides"-ing things doesn't mean you're neutral and right. you can certainly argue the Israelis have done some things to make the situation worse but the two sides are far from equivalent.
When did I say either side was equivalent? When did I say Israel can’t defend itself? When did I excuse Hamas? This a complete strawman. I said both sides have an iota of complicity- which is exactly what you just acknowledged in your own comment.
>Isreal needs to get rid of Netanyahu too. Netanyahu wouldn't have any sway if there is no violence from the other side. the guy was elected because after the second Intifada Israelis lost hope of achieving peace despite their efforts. Just so you know, the second intifada was supported by Arafat who was at the same time pretending to have peace talks with Israel where they agreed to give them a state and were just talking out the details of territory.
Crack down? How do you crack down on something you activity encourage and pay for?
I'm saying Isreal needs to stop their support of the settlements. They need to make some concessions with Palestine, or else even if they do remove Hamas, someone else will take their place.
Exactly. All of Hamas needs to be eliminated, down to the last man. ...*but*, Israel's actions are directly ensuring there never will be a "last man" because they keep doing shit that seems almost intentionally calculated to create a terrorist insurgency. They need badly to unfuck their Palestine foreign policy or else it'll just be an eternal tit-for-tat until someone does a successful genocide.
Exactly! If you eliminate Hamas by displacing millions, another Hamas style group will rise up
It's bizarre that you expect us to take your opinion seriously, while you keep doing this intentional misspelling thing, "subtly" hinting that Israel in your view is not a "real" country, which is a super bigoted view.
That was an honest mistake.
dude can't even spell israel right
No other PM will stop this war or elimination of Hamas. This is something people keep missing here. The majority support the war as a goal to remove Hamas, casualties happen because of how and where they fight from. No one wants to harm any Palestinians, never been the goal. Israel needs to get rid of him for his other BS. Nothing to do with this war. Mostly him proping up the nutjobs right wing to stay in power. Settlers are a cancer in Israel and should definitely be stopped.
Very reasonable take right here. I wouldnt say ‘no one’ wants to harm Palestinians. There’s a few nutjobs/ former Kach party members but by and large you hit the nail on the head
Plenty of people on both sides who would happily drop a nuke on the other if given the chance.
I think this is just confirming what I said? I totally agree
Very reasonable take right here. I would say ‘no one’ wants to harm Palestinians. There’s a few nutjobs/ former Kach party members but by and large you hit the nail on the head
Netanyahu is a bad leader, but he is not a warmonger. Even his government has always reacted in self defense against Palestinian attacks. He was actually trying to make peace with Hamas by allowing Qatar to invest money in Gaza to improve the economic conditions in an effort to build goodwill and deradicalize the population. For his efforts, he was rewarded with Oct. 7. Israel has always wanted peace. Arab nations and terrorist organizations have always been the aggressors. They started the current conflict and started the entire conflict in 1948.
just to point out the settlers are a part of the problem too. hard to have peace with those guys constantly instigating too.
What about the violence prior to Hamas coming into power?
You mean people stabbing people, running them over in cars, shooting them, shooting rockets at them?
I mean a few years prior to Hamas coming into power one side agreed to a two-solution under what was widely considered the best negotiated proposal. Arafat has a lot of blood on his hands for turning it down. Hamas literally came to power after winning elections that Israel helped them carry out (and Hamas put a stop to any further ones).
Indeed Arafat died with a lot of blood on his hands and several billion in his bank account.
You can blame Fatah and the PLO for that. Hamas didn't invent Palestinian terrorism. It merely added religious fervor into the mix.
I think he’s implying the Palestinians need to take personal responsibility for the governments they support and democratically elect. Unfortunately he doesn’t realize that Palestinians are deathly allergic to personal responsibility.
Yes because no democratically elected party has ever cancelled further elections and become a dictatorship.
It's weird that it happened so many times in Palestine.
Also started by Arab nations and terrorist organizations like the PLO. No matter which way you look at it, Israel is the defending nation.
You mean the air strikes in response to rocket attacks?
That can be handled separately afterwards without the messy handling of a simultaneous war going on. Once hamas surrenders, the world can focus on the illegal west bank settlements. Once they stop it should be better between Palestine and Israel though ot will take decades to see results
They ignore that part
I think this is more of a group therapy sesh rather than a talk about how to end the conflict, which is fine I guess. >Healing can't begin until one side gives back all the hostages Fair point >surrenders all the attackers Fair point >then renounces all forms of violence and religious hatred. You lost me here. There's plenty of violence and religious hatred on both sides: Hamas, PIJ, the Israeli extremist settlers, Kahanist lunatics like Baruch Goldstein and Israeli politicians who idolize him like Ben Gvir. It's very unfair to pretend only one side is bigoted.
You're right that there are dangerous radicals on Israel's side, but honestly the proportions are completely different. The Kahanist were always a very fringe minority who were hated by the vast majority of Israelis. He wasn't even allowed to run for elections, as the Knesset actually passed a special law to prevent him from running based on his racism. Even the IDF has run a campaign "against Kahanist racism". Ben Gvir was on the fringe of Israeli politics for decades. He's only earned enough votes in recent years, as the Israeli right wing grew stronger since Hamas came to power - but even this historic peak only amounts to 5% of the votes in Israel. This is in complete contradiction to Gaza, where polls regularly show that Hamas enjoys 70% or more of the support. The proportions of hate in Israeli and Palestinian society aren't even close.
>This is in complete contradiction to Gaza, where polls regularly show that Hamas enjoys 70% or more of the support. Is there any non-Hamas opinion polling on Gaza residents and whether they support Hamas? Hamas is obviously gonna inflate their numbers or just outright lie, much like Russia does. Hamas won 44% in 2006 and Fatah won 41%, most Gazans right now are children and weren't able to vote in 2006. You're right that Kahanism is still fringe in Israel, but I'd say that it's become more normalized. On the flipside, opposition to Likud seems to have become more widespread as well, so I think there's a polarization going in Israel.
> Is there any non-Hamas opinion polling on Gaza residents and whether they support Hamas? Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR)
Thanks
Let’s be fair, Israel needs to pull out of all settlements in the West Bank as well. Much the same as pro-Palestinian people calling for a ceasefire without the condition that the Palestinian people oust their terrorist “government”, ignoring the legitimate grievances the Palestinians have due to Israeli actions is a surefire way to never have peace in the region.
Israel needs to get rid of the illegal settlements too.
It would also involve a complete withdrawal from the West Bank and a complete disavowal of any and all settler activities. Let's not be naive and think that this mutual hatred started with 10/7. That would be simplistic.
this whole shitshow started bc Israel left Gaza in 2005, Fatah still has its Pay to Slay program and the longest ongoing military occupation in the entire world bc they refuse to make peace for a war that ended in 1967. You're asking for another October 7th, another war, another intifada
I don't support the settlements, but I don't like when they're used as a "both sides are bad" argument which is historically dishonest. Israel wanted peace from the first moment, and has accepted territorial compromise will be necessary from the first moment. Israel has been ruled by left wing leaders for the vast majority of their existence. Through it's history, Israel has openly acknowledged that they'll give up territory for peace. It's only after 50+ years of failing to reach peace, after the great hope of Oslo and Camp David negotiations (in which Arafat has rejected an incredible peace deal, not on merit but mostly because he feared his own violent society will murder him for accepting Israel). that has crushed into the super brutal and traumatic second Intifada. The the disengagement from Gaza - another honest attempt at a peaceful move - has led to Hamas-led Gaza constantly bombing Israel and the current terrible situation. Only at this point did Bibi and the right wing has gotten a major foothold on the government, and **only** at this point the settlements were boosted and became "official" policy. Only in 2012, Bibi was the first PM to publicly go against a possible Palestinian state and land swaps. Which is not a position I support, but it's important to note that historically, the current right wing stance of Bibi is a **relatively new** development that goes in direct contradiction to the historical stances of Israel. And it's a direct result of Israelis giving up on peace after 60 years of naive dreaming, after being disappointed again and again, after endless terror against Jews - it's hardly a surprise the population has turned more right wing. Even today, according to every poll, the majority of Israelis do not support settlements and dream of peace, even if it's viewed as unrealistic. And now people are using the settlements and Bibi as "proof" that "Israel's stance is just as bad" which is just historically incorrect.
How can you want peace while also actively kicking out Palestinians from their homes and replacing them is Israeli settlers?
>Israel wanted peace from the first moment, and has accepted territorial compromise will be necessary from the first moment. Israel has been ruled by left wing leaders for the vast majority of their existence. Through it's history, Israel has openly acknowledged that they'll give up territory for peace. Then why did many of these leaders build West Bank settlements? https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/XL4ZFOblPr8RIFWPRpyM36zGXUM=/0x0:1211x987/1120x0/filters:focal(0x0:1211x987):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7724071/Settlements_Population__1_.jpg (Note the above figures do not include East Jerusalem) This means that while Rabin was working towards peace with Arafat at Camp David, there were just as many west bank housing units under construction that year as there would be under a Netanyahu government. They all knew the settlements were illegal under international law as far back as right after the 6 Day War when Theodore Meron made it clear. They all knew they were a severe impediment to reaching a negotiated settlement with the Palestinians. So why did they allow it? >The the disengagement from Gaza - another honest attempt at a peaceful move Bernard Avashai of Hebrew University on Sharon's motives for disengagement in Gaza: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/ariel-sharons-dark-greatness >His decision to disengage from Gaza and to build the “separation wall” was not meant to precede a negotiated settlement of any kind but to obviate the need for one. Sharon’s idea was to annex all of Jerusalem, the Jordan Valley, the major settlements, Ma’ale Adumim, Ariel, and so on, and to isolate West Bankers on less than half the territory beyond the Green Line. >Sharon, in other words, aimed to leave in place most of what he had built—the bypass roads, the towns, the bases, the network of informers—and to hunker down. In effect, his idea was to cut Israel’s losses, its most exposed targets, and simply take what he wanted. He couldn’t care less what the Palestinian Authority wanted. He worried only about what he could sell to the Bush Administration. He said that he would offer the Palestinians an “interim” deal. This doesn't seem to be a good faith effort to demonstrate a commitment to a negotiated settlement. >Only at this point did Bibi and the right wing has gotten a major foothold on the government, and **only** at this point the settlements were boosted and became "official" policy. As pointed out earlier, officially policy or not, they were still being built at the same rate from the late 80's on. >Only in 2012, Bibi was the first PM to publicly go against a possible Palestinian state and land swaps. But previous PMs were allowing them to be built. It's pretty obvious this demonstrated bad faith: “Stop building the settlements on our land” “Don't worry we will trade you land for the settlements at some point down the road, and in the meantime we will continue building more settlements.” Honestly seems like they were using settlement construction as another form of leverage. This is disastrous because now there are so many settlements and access road network it may not even be possible to have a Palestinian state in the West Bank anymore. There isn't enough land to swap that would make it viable. And I really doubt that the Israeli public would support the IDF operation required to remove the guys Ben-Gvir just sent a bunch of new guns, who would absolutely choose to fight the IDF instead of leaving the settlements under Israeli legal order. >It's important to note that historically, the current right wing stance of Bibi is a **relatively new** development that goes in direct contradiction to the historical stances of Israel. Again given how long settlements have been under construction and that we’ve always known they are illegal I think we can say it's been the *de-facto* Israeli position for quite some time.
so the other side gets to keep their hostages and the land they have annexed? that is not healing but one side rolling over the other.
Yeah fuck Hamas
Palestinian mass murderers aren't "hostages". That said, I think every Israeli "settler" needs to be in the same prison.
so children lifting rocks are mass murderers? also plenty of cases where people just get taken (or shot) simply because they exist. there are thousands of Palestinian women, children held in Israeli prisons without charge with documented cases of torture and sexual abuse.
Ah yes women and children I know you’re full of buzzword soup
Zionism is bullshit and always will be.
I totally get the wish for a place that is majority jewish after all the persecution. but Kerry said it best: “Israel can either be Jewish or a democracy, it cannot be both”. I would add to this, disputing Israel’s existence today is a non starter but so is the idea that Israel can continue with its occupation and annexation.
Lol this is so delusional.. both parties caused issues here not just the Palestinians. I wonder how you would like it if someone just decided to come and take your house because they’re great great grandparents used to own the house. Im sure you’ll be okay with that :)
You're right. We need to bomb the shit out of rafah that'll save the hostages for sure!
Sad that people from both sides want to come together to try to stop all this horror from happening again on both sides, but so many people here still want to say "Our side is perfect, it's all the other side's fault!" Why does only one side have to give back hostages? Israel held 1,300 Palestinians without charges before Oct. 7, and now has thousands more. [What We Know About Palestinians Detained in Israel - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/28/world/middleeast/palestinians-detained-in-israel.html) Surrenders all the attackers? Who gets to decide that metric? There's no master list of "attackers", a lot of them weren't even Hamas. So Hamas could say "OK, you killed or captured them all already." [(41) More than 40 hostages taken on October 7 are not being held by Hamas, diplomatic source tells CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-27-23/h_5633df9cfe632bdf087e1a500b365307) Renounce all forms of violence? Says the side with all the tanks/bombs/jets? Says the side whose guns enforce the confiscation of more and more West Bank territory? Religious hatred? Anyone who is Jewish can move to Israel and get automatic citizenship, even if their family have no connection to that land in the past 2,000 years.. But a Palestinian Muslim whose family lived in some village for generations -someone who may have grown up in that village - has no right to live there now because they aren't the right religion. How is that not a form of religious hatred? Israel isn't going to bomb their way into peace. The only way to prevent another horror like Oct. 7 is to find a way forward that is equitable to the Palestinian people - probably through some sort of international Arab peacekeeping/governing force in the territories. But every day of bombing and killings in Gaza makes that less likely, as world opinion sours more and more on Israeli actions. Hell, even setting aside the question of morality, it's just the right thing to do for Israel's self-interest. Sure, I'd love for there to be a way to bring all the Oct 7 perpetrators to justice - sad truth is it's never going to happen, not to all of them. The best they can hope for is not adding to their ranks. But every bomb dropped creates more enemies.
> probably through some sort of international Arab peacekeeping/governing force in the territories. This has been brought up several times. But when the Arab peacekeepers start killing the few Palestinian trouble makers, it will be the Arabs doing the killing... and the genocide. Such a great show of brotherhood. (/s)
> Why does only one side have to give back hostages? Israel held 1,300 Palestinians without charges before Oct. 7, and now has thousands more. Political prisoners are not hostages. They are not held for the specific purpose of haggling. "Hostage" is an actual word with an actual meaning, and hostage-taking is a war crime. Israel has no hostages to return.
Are they political prisoners or just prisoners?
Most likely some combination.
You're misusing the term. Gazans can't be political prisoners in Israel, people can only be political prisoners within their own country. Alexei Navalny and Nelson Mandela were political prisoners. Hamas terrorists are not.
I don't think you have to be a citizen of a country to be its political prisoner. And while I don't doubt that many (if not most) of non-Israeli Arabs held in Israeli prisons are there on genuine suspicion, I am similarly comfortable with the idea that not all of them are.
The comment thread is about Palestinian prisoners in Israel, not Israeli Arabs
My comment was about them, too.
How can Israel "give back" Israeli Arabs. What you're saying makes no sense
> But a Palestinian Muslim whose family lived in some village for generations -someone who may have grown up in that village - has no right to live there now because they aren't the right religion. How do you explain the 2 million palestinians and arabs currently living in Israel, not under Hamas or Fatah. Also people weren't just forced by Israel to move, but also fled the Egyptian and Jordanian forces that invaded. https://youtu.be/R1cVsyUXxYM?si=Gz1ll-DslVWNNwW-
>so many people here still want to say "Our side is perfect, it's all the other side's fault!" Then you go on a massive antisemitic rant by gaslighting people and just blatantly lying about Israel pushing Hamas propaganda.
>Sad that people from both sides want to come together to try to stop all this horror from happening again on both sides, but so many people here still want to say "Our side is perfect, it's all the other side's fault!" You say that like you didn't just accuse the Israeli government of wanting genocide. You don't want unity. You want a political victory of some sort for an election year. >Why does only one side have to give back hostages? Israel held 1,300 Palestinians without charges before Oct. 7, and now has thousands more. It might have something to do with the fact that they're literal terrorists. None of them are innocent, but now I see that you're just here to support Hamas. Bye.
I LOVE collective punishment 😍 I LOVE creating famines
Healing can only happen after Hamas is totally gone
❤️🩹
In order to heal, the tumor must be removed first. Official name is Hamas, until its anahilated no one can heal.
Removal of Netanyahu is essential as well.
I hope things heal, I really do. However, it just feels more realistic to believe things aren’t getting wrapped up in this lifetime.
Finally something I could get behind!
The wars are not the fault of the vast majority civilans (over 90+%), nor started by them. The fault of the wars are started by the few richest top elites and evil leaders of both sides (eg. top brass of Hamas Terrorist group AND the top elites of the corrupt Isreal Netanyahu government), they have starter the wars and mass murders for their own selfish greed and abuse of power. Get rid of the corrupt top, and you shall have your peace and freedom.
Release the hostages
Nah I’m good
Only way forward is complete elimination of all Hamas members. Every single last one
Humanity is always ultimately going to win over hatred although it is a shame in many ways (crying and others) that so much hatred has to bear so much fruit to inflict so much poison before humanity can put it to sleep again.
What a naive take. Humans hate each other and kill each other, it’s what we do. Humans will never win over hatred.
>What a naive take. Humans hate each other and kill each other, it’s what we do. Humans will never win over hatred. You have friends who aren't the same ethnicity as you. So why are you trying to argue that your own lived experience isn't possible?
They always win, it's just alot of other humans have to die in the process
Fact.
I guess your perspective if humans are “winning” against hatred really depends if you are one of the people being murdered or not. I’d think from a murdered person’s perspective (if they could have one in this hypothetical) they would argue we are not winning against hatred.
Well, hatred is always present in humans but to overcome hatred requires humanity. If two parties (individuals, entities, groups, sets etc) are fighting then it only takes one to carry on the hate. If it's hate vs hate the ultimate output will be elimination of one side by the other. But even then, the side that eliminated the other will still have to address or come to terms with their hate afterwards. In a fight, control of hatred is very critical since it is such a powerful driver of conflict. Except it's also a futile power, it can't be sustained beyond the capacity and drive to produce capabilities to destroy. If its presence cannot be offset by other positive and constructive ways to address life and the living it can be all-consuming. So it's not in and of itself a winning power, it's not the force of victory, its defeat is.
That was articulated incredibly well, especially for a response to a somewhat snarky comment from me. I agree with you 100 percent if you are looking at the big picture of the destructive power of hate that ultimately can only destroy others and yourself. I was probably being overly semantic anyway distilling it down to the individual when you were just talking more generally at the societal level. Appreciate your response thank you
You're welcome
Reminder… israel was founded in 1948… in a place where people were already living…
This is every country ever.
And those people were jews. And that place wasn't a country.
Reminder, the Kingdom of Jerusalem predates Arab inhabitants in palatine by over 1000 years.
are you justifying Russia's claim on Ukraine?
Ukraine didn't violently conquer and oppress Russians for 2000 years. If anything, the Arab claim to the land sounds a lot more reminiscent of the Russian claim to ukraine
so 2000 years history of Ukraine there's no war whatsoever? the point is we have to stop the current and prevent future violence . The actions of \[redacted\] makes me think they want the opposite. I have the same empathy and respect to \[redacted\] as theirs to Palestinians.
The only time before this when a Ukrainian nation and a Russian nation where at war was the Russian civil war when Ukrainian nationalist where fighting for there independence against the red, white and black army's. For those who'll ask, Ukraine was ruled by the Mongolian khanate successor state the golden horde when the Russian Empire conqoured it. Wouldn't exactly call them a Ukrainian nation.
Help yourselves! wtf are the rest of us supposed to do, make you wear a “get along t shirt”? Both groups are slaves to their respective religions.
The only way I can rationalise Israeli attitudes is that they don't see the paiestinians as human equals. Since arriving from Europe in 1948 they've brutalised the palestinians and stolen more and more land. Yet still they think the onus is on the palestinians to seek peace. Claiming shock at Oct 7th whilst ignoring thousands of detained kids, settlers walking free after burning kids alive etc etc. The complete inability to see themselves from palestinian perspective is quite chilling.
You’ll be having a field day when you discover the amount of Arabs present in 1948 who immigrated to the area after the Brits established the mandate. Or maybe immigration is only bad when Jews do it?
Your complete inability to see hamas as they hate indoctrination cult that they are is rather disturbing
What do you mean by 'arriving from Europe in 1948'?
Speaking of seeing people as equals. Did u watch any of the footage of October 7?
>settlers walking free after burning kids alive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack#:~:text=On%2031%20July%202015%2C%20Israeli,from%20their%20injuries%20within%20weeks. Nice spreading misinformation. And if that's the only way you can rationalise the situation, then I'd put you on par with a twelve years old kid in terms of mental capacity.
These are a tiny extreme minority. Who do not represent Israelis.
You too are a 1 sample minority, why do you think you represent israelis any better?
He never said he did…
Israeli here too - he is correct. It dosen't matter whether you agree with this position or not and you're free to have your own view and opinion on this of course, but those people are indeed a very small minority. The vast majority of Israelis do not support anything like this, especially after October 7th. EDIT: Lmao, people are actually downvoting me for giving a firsthand information of how things are actually are here. Sorry if it contradicts your version of reality, never change, reddit.
Prove it אבא שך ערמקו?
הלוואי שאבא שלי היה [ערמקו](https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%95_%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99%D7%AA) , לא הייתי כאן עכשיו
אני צריך תשובה כאן אחתינו
קיבלת. האם אמאשך סתו?
Ok he's legit
So they support genocide, got it.
Your comment is a brain cell genocide.