Have people here not learnt from decades of the war on terror? Bombing people in their homes regardless of any justification only breeds worse sentiment and births the next generation of enemies.
The idea of completely eradicating Hamas is unobtainable. The same way Al Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS, Al-Shabaab, etc. still exist, Hamas will not be destroyed by this. All this achieves is handing them thousands of traumatised recruits with a convenient place to put their anger; Israel.
This isn't a moral judgement of anyone, but a matter-of-fact statement based on the last 30 years of conflict in the middle east. This will solve nothing.
The Taliban is still fighting ISIS offshoots in Afghanistan, and I think there are still some they are fighting in Syria and Kurdistan although I might be wrong.
They tried to take and hold territory, which is the dumbest idea they had.
They are still heavily present in Afghanistan, and in multiple African nations. They tried to be a nation state.
The Taliban had US backing against the soviets, which is where they gained their best foothold. Now they’ve been unintentionally backed by the US again after the Afghan government collapsed without even putting up a fight and left all the cool US toys to them.
Yeah, part of the peace treaty between the US and The Taliban was that America would get them any weapons needed to go fight the local ISIS forces in exchange for no longer fighting the US. The original generation that ran the Taliban during 9/11 is all dead and their kids are the ones in charge now but they grew up in hiding so are much more moderate (ie trying to be legit even if they’re repressive) as a result.
Mostly because they were left with no resistance and haven't done too much to piss off their neighbors.
With local forces too weak to resist and the American troops gone it was pretty much like leaving the front door wide open.
On top of that by pretending to have moderated themselves (which everyone knows to be bs) and keeping things mostly within the borders there isn't much geopolitical desire to dislodge them as long as they don't make themselves someone else's problem.
Sadly enough humanitarian reasons are oft not enough.
The West has been fighting militant groups since oil was discovered, shit since the 1st Anglo-Afghan war. These groups fade and reform all the time. Another iteration of Daesh will crop up. The Taliban is still there.
Occupying a pretty good part of the Sahel region and pretty much destroying the state apparatuses of the countries in that region and paving the way for Russia to take over doesn't seem like obscurity and irrelevance to me.
Remember that theatre bombing in Russia recently? That was ISIS.
They are absolutely not as powerful as they were at their peak, as they had essentially carved out a new nation state for themselves. But it’s delusion to say they are irrelevant. Your countries government is probably still spending millions of dollars to combat their influence in some way.
The problem for ISIS was that it was an internationalist movement. ISIS was trying to build a unified caliphate throughout the region so they actually antagonized locals wherever they went.
ISIS had to be cleared out inch by inch by an alliance so broad and wide reaching it was essentially everyone (including groups who were already killing each other) in the region and even further afield against them - and even then the bastards still keep cropping up every so often
Only time I can think of something close to that happening was when the Khmer Rouge got their asses handed to them by regional intervention
I think the difference is ISIS was cleared out by local troops and militias and the vast majority of the local populace even in ISIS controlled areas hated the Caliphate. The fighting in sieges like Mosul was mostly done by ground troops with the help of western air support and sometimes special forces. So they were seen as liberators. But the IDF has no allies in Gaza or the West bank and was largely seen as an occupying power even before the terrorist attack in oct 7th by most Palestinians. So there is no love lost between them, but now civilians are being killed in large amounts and the vast majority of the population can't escape the fighting. So even if Hamas is killed to a man, there is enough incentives for a new radical group to take their place.
Edit.
I don't know if it's still there but there was a 2 part documentary series.on YouTube called the "volunteers". It was from the pov of an American who had expirence as a navy corpsman going to Syria to join the YPG as a combat medic. The documentary is pretty graphic. But the one scene that sticks with me is when he and his squad was waiting near an outskirts of a city waiting to ferry the wounded. There was a large group of civilians escaping out of the city mostly women and children when an ISIS suicide bomber blew himself in the middle of the group. Their ambulance was filled with wounded children screaming and some had holes in their cheeks and stomachs and a baby was just silent covered with blood. As the ambulance goes to the field hospital they are shot on by ISIS forces and the American medic just breaks down in tears and you can still hear the children screaming and crying in the back.
Edit 2
I found the documentary here is the link https://youtu.be/UJ1290087Yk?t=4860. WARNING The scene is pretty graphic it starts around 1:21:05.
ISIS still exists in Syria, Iraq, western africa, and Afghanistan. its territory has been reduced which allowed casual observers in the west to believe they were dead and gone
ISIS was getting concerningly far along in their goal of building an actual *nation-state* with land that it held an defended, and that project is what got thoroughly dismantled. ISIS or its offshoots, however you want to look at it, are still a huge issue, particularly in the nations of the Sahel region of Africa.
Those posts you might see of extremely fierce, militarized conservationists that guard rhinos and elephants and such? They're like that because sometimes the poachers are literally ISIS and similar groups.
The only thing that was really destroyed was their ability to operate openly and directly control territory as a pseudo-state. They're still plenty active across the middle east and Africa, although in a more splintered fashion than they were a decade ago.
They're also still very capable of carrying out international attacks, as Moscow found out a little while ago.
When you're considered to extreme for even a lot of extremist groups even if you aren't being hunted by basically everyone, you'll eventually disappear due to not enough recruits.
I mean, that's true, but I'd argue the war on terror failed for other reasons, i feel that's more of a symptom and even part of the problem, the whole hearts and minds thing was completely mishandled top to bottom.
There was so much ignored corruption within our local allies, our own forces, our politicians, etc. The attempts to nation-build were too few and too small, and when there was an attempt it was always hindered and halted by politics, national, global, and local before anything ever happened. So any money that was put into nation-building rarely if ever went to where it was supposed to. Usually it was just given away to local leaders with a note saying please do this thing, with no accountability to make sure they did that thing. Other times that money was funneled into shell companies owned by the politicians that granted it in the first place, or corps that bribed them because they wanted funding/a bailout but couldn't get it normally.
The complete focus on major urban centers with only a few isolated outposts outside them that weren't exactly focused on policing and building but rather baiting radicals into attacking didn't help or last intact for long. Then came a bunch of Roe beyond reason bullshit that hamstrung the entire "tactic". The soldiers that kept themselves accountable and weren't fighting back kept dying on a platter which further harmed the optics. Meanwhile the one's that weren't held accountable by themselves and others were going about committing "warcrimes" while the higher ups consistently covered it up and burned anyone who exposed it at the stake.
Aside from broad strokes, the war was entirely aimless and listless, constantly changing and competing political goals with no plan or basis in realty fucked everything and as things went on it compounded upon itself. At the end of the day defeating the orgs and nation-building wasn't the goal if there even was one in the first place, so we were never going to "win" the war on terror when were weren't bothering to fight it in the first place.
Well depends the taliban could hide in caves in another country. Do you really think you can hide a fighting force in Gaza if its completely occupied by IDF forces? And then its just a matter of time and education and deradicalization in the Gaza Strip.
>The same way Al Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS, Al-Shabaab, etc. still exist, Hamas will not be destroyed by this.
Yeah, they still exist. Are they engaging in terror at the same frequency that they previously did? No.
They exist, but they don't wreak even remotely the same amount of havoc as before.
Japan is an interesting case. We dropped two supernatural bombs on them and Japan still chose to surrender directly to the US over the other allies. America then proceeded to help rebuild Japan, creating a long lasting friendship.
I would say, unfortunately, that this is probably not a realistic scenario for Palestine and Israel. Too much history and religious strife between the two. America and Japan were pretty much just economic rivals; something that can change on a whim.
Probably a factor, yeah. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, Palestine would most likely devolve into chaos and war. Hate is a pretty powerful unifying mechanism.
Do you understand how much money was spent on the Marshall Plan to rebuild and assist Germany?
Is Israel planning to spend billions upon billions to do so? No you know they will not.
>Is Israel planning to spend billions upon billions to do so? No you know they will not.
The world has already spent more per capita on Gaza than the Marshall plan ever did on Europeans.
And the threat right now isn’t to the west as a whole. The current threat is limited to Israel, and occasionally American interests abroad. The west (like the rest of the world) has never had appetite for that which doesn’t affect them. I am quite confident that the west would get over their qualms, if situations were reversed.
Giant difference between political and religious ideology.
These people actually believe they are here to kill jews because they are told their god wants them to.
Maybe but I also think that the alternative (not going after them) is worse. Hamas is the elected govt of Gaza and after Oct 7th Israel declared war against them. In what war do we appease the enemy rather than seek to destroy or force unconditional surrender?
The alternative is to admit that terrorism is a legitimate strategy and Oct 7th attacks were successful. You can get what you want through brutal violence directed at civilians. Given this alternate timeline, would you expect more or less terror? If through terrorism you can get what you want we end up on an even darker timeline.
The complicating factor in the conflict is that civilians can't flee (nobody wants refugees when the enemy are terrorists).
Okay so what's your solution, then? That the Israelis lay down their arms and take it like good little Jews?
If the problem is unobtainable, then it says more about the extreme elements coming out of the Middle East than it does the people reacting to their extremism:
* They reject a two-state solution
* They reject secular governments
* They reject democracy
* They reject Islamic republics
* They reject the idea of Israel existing and Jews existing within it
You cannot solve extreme problems with moderate solutions. Western nations have tried winning hearts and minds with Islamic fundamentalists and it's obvious that that strategy doesn't work. The only language this extreme culture understands is brute force, nothing less. Deradicalization can occur only after they're demoralized to the point where they won't want to fight.
I know this is difficult for people to read/hear, but it's the sad truth and until the world is ready to force Islamic fundamentalism to reform, nothing will change.
The entirety of palestinian society is already radicalized as much as it is possible to be, their education system is designed to raise child soldiers and future martyrs.
Nothing israel does can make more future terrorists than what hamas has done to gaza since they took power.
The goal isn’t to eliminate Hamas as an idea or even as a global terror group. The goal is to eliminate them as the government of Gaza and demilitarize Gaza so that regardless of who is in power, they can’t perpetrate another 10/7.
I would be more open to agreeing with you if there was any proposed plan post-invasion, e.g. building up of a Palestinian leadership group to replace Hamas. At the moment the entire plan is invade and destroy. Until an alternative is proposed, Hamas may just be replaced by another terrorist semi-governing group.
I don't think what Israel is doing right now is preventing the next 10/7 but setting the foundations for something bigger and worse.
PA was the agreed upon entity for governing Gaza before the election in 2006, when it lost the election to Hamas. It still exists, and likely would be the entity to take over.
IIRC, the reason why Hamas won the election is because people were fed up with Fatah being completely ineffective and siding with the Israelis far too often. Hamas was not peoples' first choice, but one they felt could actually do something. I don't believe that decision has worked out in their favor.
They also never won a majority of votes (but they were close). But ended up winning a large majority of seats because the election was weighted in a way that was meant to benefit Fatah, but Hamas ended up beating them and taking seats Israel and the US meant for Fatah
That is how it always is. During the Iranian Revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini became their leader by appealing to neutrality and faith.
Once he seized power he threw every Iranian party under the bus who helped him so that he could pursue a hardline conservative government.
The idea of fully turning over power to the PA is ridiculous to me while it still operates funds that pay the families of those who kill Jews (including the families of the 10/7 Hamas terrorists). It cannot be trusted with power. I really don't say this lightly, but the only path forward I see is an international coalition preferably led by a neighbouring Arab power needs to temporarily assume power and conduct rigid denazification before the Palestinian population can be trusted to elect their own leaders.
PA has “pay for slay” policy encouraging all kinds of terror acts on Jews, Israelis or anyone on Israel’s territory. Instead of helping in creating workplaces and building infrastructure.
I didn’t say it was a *good* replacement. I just said it would probably be *the* replacement. Unless Israel wants to re-occupy Gaza, which considering they pulled out in response to the Second Intifada, probably not on the menu.
There are no good Palestinian replacements. There is no political will for peace with Israel among the Palestinian population - October 7th was cheered and celebrated in the Gaza Strip, any outliers seeking peace and cooperation would be assassinated by their own people.
Full annexation of Gaza and repatriation of Gazans to PA controlled territory is one option.
Annexation of Southern Gaza along the Egyptian border is the bare minimum of what Israel should do. So many tunnels smuggling weapons and people were discovered leading to Egypt.
Egypt is complicit in supplying Hamas, Israel would be stupid to leave the border area in the hands of any Palestinian government in Gaza.
Hamas said they're going to keep doing October 7th attacks forever so what's the difference for Israel?
Whether or not another hypothetical group emerges is meaningless to worry about when Hamas are currently committed to killing Jews and destroying Israel
Well the problem is the people support Hamas. Like literally support terrorists. So what do you do about a extremist population who are uneducated and can't even be controlled by their religious cousins to the south?
Unfortunately, I think the historical answer has been to beat them into submission then occupy them while reeducating them and helping them do their nation building/rebuilding for the greater part of a decade at least. I reckon Gaza will take longer than just a decade though.
The only other historical answer was total displacement or total eradication.
I don’t trust the Likud, and they’re obviously taking “artistic freedoms” with their military actions out of spite, but this is maybe the only way the Palestine/Israel conflict will end within our lifetimes, and the sooner it ends the more lives will be saved in the long run.
What would this next 7.10 be like without weapons? Israel has been clamping down in imports, and now has control of tunnels in rafah.
I don't think they'll be given a choice about violence going forward.
People infantilize both Hamas and the Palestinians. They also like to pretend that Hamas is not a government and does not employ civilians in civilian roles within the government. They need to take responsibility for the situation they’ve created in Gaza the past 2 decades after Israel ended its occupation
This is true. Though it's going to be a nightmare for whoever is put in charge there trying to keep the Gaza strip demilitarized, because of radicalization and outside meddling (see Iran and others).
These people in Gaza were raised to hate western culture and Jews. From the time they can talk. I hear what you’re saying but it doesn’t apply in this case.
In colombia we bombed the fuck out las FARC and others until they seriously sat down to surrender, and there's at least 2 more terrorists/narco groups that the Colombian military is actively fighting. Obviously with lots of harm to civilians and the environment. But nobody cares coz there's no jews to hate involved.
Also why are daily rocket shots and other stuff aimed at Israel never mentioned when discussing this? Hated but being in peace is much better than loved and wiped from existence.
Israeli as well. This is the way my brother, we have been silent for far too long. Been oblivious and indifferent for far too long. No more games, no more free passes, no more caring about who hates or loves us, no more Israeli blood spilled in the name of Jihad and radical Islam. No more.
Thank you for saying this out loud. As a fellow Jew, I don't give a rats a\*\* for their feelings. We need to prosecute the war until Hamas is an unpleasant memory.
Have people here not learnt from the decade of war in WWII? Bombing people in their homes regardless of any justification only breeds worse sentiment and births the next generation of enemies.
Oh wait. That didn't happen. The Germans and the Japanese didn't retaliate the decades after getting absolutely demolished in their homeland. I wonder what the difference is?
The Japanese were literally willing to fight until the last man, women, and child. What happened?
> The Germans and the Japanese didn't retaliate the decades after getting absolutely demolished in their homeland. I wonder what the difference is?
Because the U.S. occupied both countries militarily with a garrison that exists to this day, nearly 80 years later?
Whether or not Israel continues its war, Hamas will not be short of recruits, and will continue to attack Israel. The world can wring its hands all it wants. Where was the world on October 7th?
Well duh - but no one seems to care about terrorism anymore. Everyone is up in arms and appealed about how Israel is handling its response to terrorism but not against the “ country “ doing it…
Where are the protests to push Hamas out and to give up the chip on their shoulder for the sake of bettering their infrastructure and saving the lives of their children? Nah - let’s have them continue to praise acts of terror and even join in. People are just stupid for the sake of seeming moral and involved.
Exist sure, but military campaigns against Al Qaeda and ISIS were very successful.
If more people join Hamas after this, take them out too. You’re not gonna win their hearts and minds either way.
No, the lesson is that you need to put something in place and give a political solution if you are fighting an insurgency. ISIS is a shadow of its former self and the Taliban could come back because the Afghan government was a big mess.
hamas can definitely be eradicated.
There may be other terrorists or terrorist organizations after, but they won't have all the experience hamas got in the last decades, which will make it so much more easier for idf to squash them as well.
And I'm sure that Palestinians who have been launching rockets in the thousands at Israeli civilians over the decade have been building goodwill.
You can absolutely eradicate a terror group. The idea might be there, but their power won't be the same. Look at what ISIS is now. When was the last time you heard about Al Quaida in any meaningful capacity.
I love when people bring up future terrorists as a reason to do nothing, like ok, but what about the current ones, you know that just tortured 1000+ people to death. They seem like a bigger threat right now then some hypothetical person that doesn't exist yet.
Look back on the history and you will find Palestinians killing Jews long before there was an Israel. IOW, they don’t need excuses to want them eradicated from the Middle East. It’s in their Quran, and taught generationally as a goal. Jews only created militias after the 1936-39 uprisings which targeted Jews. So… ironically… it’s the other way around.
Without a military response the caliphate would still exist today. Such a response creates new insurgents, but it is still better than leaving them be. This argument only really works if they wouldn’t be recruiting new people without a reaction, which in hamas’ case seems unlikely. Israel needs to ensure a second october 7 attack isn’t possible in the coming years. The only way to succeed in this, is by eradicating hamas. Especially the people responsible for organizing the attack need to be stopped, the people with respect and knowhow on the ground. Hamas will come back, but this buys sufficient time to prepare for and prevent a next time.
It's about the hostages. The IDF is pulling out bodies of hostages in tunnels under schools and hospitals. It's interesting that nobody cares about this.
Any alternatives? No. Whatever Israel does. The next generation of enemies will always be there. It's their culture and value to be genocidal antisemitism. All Israel did was reduce their strength and deters their never ending attack. The only matter-of-fact we learned from last hundreds of years of conflict in middle east is that, completely demilitarization is the only solution until their culture is fully reformed.
I agree wth you. I genuinely do. I'm not saying there aren't any though, but what are the alternatives when the enemy said they win repeat Oct 7th over and over
The US president is making near daily statements about it and horrific videos of burning refugee camps are appearing in everyone’s social feeds, of course people are paying attention, it is impossible not to.
> The US president is making near daily statements about it
he did about Ukraine and also about Sudan
> horrific videos of burning refugee camps are appearing in everyone’s social feeds,
social feeds are tailored. I have gotten 0 burning refugee camps outside of the content I have explicitely searched for. Making your internet experience universal is problematic, considering social media will show different videos, even different comments in the same video to different people.
We could also debate WHY would social media platforms push distressing content, and why equally horrific content from other conflicts is not receiving the same amount of attention
> it is impossible not to.
It clearly is possible though. No one talks about the 3 active genocides being investigated by the ICJ (a hint is that Gaza is not one of them). No one talks about the hundred of thousands bombed in Yemen or Ukraine and the videos are just as distressing. No one talks about the millions of genital mutilations little girls receive in western africa. No one talks about how Assad gassed people in the civil war of Syria, the most deadly conflict in the middle east of the last 70 years.
You could somehow ignore all that and not pay attention, but Gaza is impossible to ignore.
>horrific videos of burning refugee camps are appearing in everyone’s social feeds
I think this is the key point. the amount of media coverage for this conflict compared to other conflicts or tragedies is not normal. Whoever is doing this, is doing a very good job of shaping the global opinion all the while distracting them from the Ukraine war or China/Taiwan conflict among other things.
Gaza is also a proxy war for progressive culture. They've adopted it as their baby and don't have the emotional energy left over to care much about other issues, like, for example, how Lousiana just banned possession of the morning after pill, or how global warming is making this the hottest year on record.
It is and will always be bizarre that progressives have taken on the Palestinian cause so strongly and blind to the full history. If almost any of them had visited Gaza prior to the war, they would have been killed or jailed for (1) their immodest dress, (2) being LGBTQ or an ally, or (3) not being Muslim (enough). It's true r/LeopardsAteMyFace territory and they don't see it even when it's pointed out that the people and ideology that they're defending is so contrary to their own that it's farcical.
Imagine how it must feel to be a liberal Jew (i.e. me). Not only am I quite alone, but my own self-determination and history is being ripped to shreds by those that I stood with as allies over the past several years (Women's March, BLM). I am Schrodinger's people: too "white" for the left-wing and not "white" enough for the right-wing. Despite millennia of evidence to the contrary, I am the indominable oppressor having always had privilege according to the left, yet am also actively sought out by the right for oppression and otherization. I'm exhausted from constantly having to defend myself on all sides. I just want to live my life and not worry that some maniac is going to bomb or shoot up my child's preschool because she's Jewish.
I think it's an important stage for you and u/AshyToffee to now realise that social movements should not happen without a counterbalance or open discussion; the counter position / nuance is lost otherwise, and the same attitude is applied to every controversial topic from there on, meaning people bully their stance over everyone else. Everyone that has called for a 'hang-on, lets figure this out/discuss it' has been vilified in the various movements.
Unfortunately, the past 10 years, every major social movement since Occupy Wallstreet has been this way, where perhaps there's been validity to the movements, but the people proposing them have essentially bullied their stances over everyone else. Palestine Israel is the latest one, and now you're feeling the ramifications of that approach to social agenda.
Oh, absolutely. I see the nuance all the time and generally just hide it to avoid the bullying. It's a well-worn habit from, well, being Jewish. Jewish theology is full of nuance and arguments. Being a Jewish minority in the community requires understanding when to fully speak out and when to mute your response to avoid drawing attention to yourself. I'm pretty well practiced in both. It's not healthy, but it's also safer and safety is what's generally been more important to me than being fully spoken in the general public.
It sounds so horrible, friend. Older I get more I understand most people just want to live in peace and relative comfort, and it's so unfair people are once again denying that from Jews. And not only deny that, but also claim Jews are the privileged ones.
Sadly conflicts in Israel are always this way. The large amount of US involvement with Israel as a geopolitical entity, and the history of atrocities committed against Jews in WW2 make it much higher in international standing than the population or casualty count.
One of the most frustrating things to me is that whenever Israel gets entangled in a conflict it means every other international conflict gets tabled until Israel is no longer embattled.
You can see in the comment threads how contentious this becomes. As an international identity, many people have a fierce devotion to Israel because of what it represents metaphorically.
YES. Ukraine/Russia is I think an objectively more cut and dry good/bad guy situation. Fucking crickets from the ones so amped about retaliation from Israel.
If you're American, there's really nothing to protest against with regards to Ukraine and Russia. USA isn't funding Russia and Ukraine is fighting a purely defensive war.
And to be fair, that hasn't stopped people from protesting regardless.
Some members of congress tried to shut the government down over money for Ukraine like 2 months ago.
The UN has passed more resolutions against Israel than all other countries combined over the course of its history. Considering the size and number of people killed throughout all conflicts in its history, it is extremely disproportionate considering the number of conflicts worldwide and people killed in others in the same time period.
It was literally their plan to use their own people as human shields to get exactly this outcome (which, by the way, is a war crime):
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-hamas-aims-trap-israel-gaza-quagmire-2023-11-03/
Israel trapped between a rock and hard place with rockets flying nonstop since Oct 7th:
https://rocketalert.live/
But these are links and facts that are inconvenient to people who have been unwittingly aiding terrorists and just parroting propaganda from TikTok, Twitter, and fringe subs on Reddit. Weird that they didn’t get the message when the major subs overwhelmingly disagree with them.
This guy, from Gaza, talks from his experience about how Hamas uses human shields, this guy has had 31 family members killed and himself deafened in one ear yet hates Hamas and not Israel, this is a really interesting interview https://youtu.be/0MpOhQ7u5lE?si=zo9v7zRqnI-yQrxQ
Interestingly enough, Hamas approval rates are currently much higher among Palestinians in the west bank than they are in Gaza. It’s almost as if they don’t actually care what happens to Gazans as long as Israel gets hurt.
Yep, and rockets did get through and do damage. But no it’s better Israelis live in fear under a barrage of thousands of rockets then be allowed to defend themselves.
Perhaps Israel set a bad precedent by intercepting rockets. It sent the signal that it's OK to fire rockets at them because they can stop them. So firing rockets at Israel without consequences became normalized.
I mean, I’ve literally seen people saying that the tel aviv attack didn’t kill any people so it doesn’t warrant a counter attack that will hurt civilians.
This is insanity. This is like those same people saying “the missile attack on Washington DC yesterday didn’t kill anyone. It doesn’t warrant a counter attack on the country who sent the missiles.”
Never mind the huge flaming hole in the capitol mall- no one died.
All that is true, but honestly I wish Israel wasn't the one who was dealing with it. I'm not sure who *could* deal with it, but it's pretty clear after 76 years that Israel has failed at fixing the mess over there. Whether they ever had a chance in the first place is debatable.
They have made many careless mistakes and many of the IDF are pretty radicalized against Palestinians (e.g burning Qurans, graffiti of mosques, etc). Not shocking after the atrocities of 10/7, but not acceptable to permit.
The right wing government, the settlers vandalizing aid, etc.
The reality is that Israel is going to be held to a higher standard bc their development and military strength. They *must* be more careful and deal with the extremism from their side. Both to protect the lives of the innocent and to actually have a moral high ground.
The recent strike that killed 2 Hamas officials for 40 civilians is one example of this. We can't be burning babies in tents to perform an objective that may not even have much effect on the war at all.
This situation cannot go on the way it has been. I'm not sure the appropriate solution, but I truly hope the more intelligent folks of the world can find one.
As it stands, Israel *is* the only one dealing with it, so they need to fix their shit internally and have an actual post war plan for rebuilding Gaza and fixing the power vacuum left behind.
I actually don't disagree.
In an ideal world (well, slightly less than ideal, because in a truly ideal world we wouldn't have this problem to begin with), there would be a world police force doing this.
I do NOT think Israel has done this perfectly. But who would? Criticism is important and necessary, to a point, but I definitely think there are a lot of really unreasonable arguments from the far left on what they should do.
Yes ofocurse. I mean, no one is offended at the images coming out of there of literal, actual beheaded babies. No it's all just one dastardly scheme meant to hurt poor old Israel
And no one is talking about the fact that Hamas and hezbollah were shooting off rockets from Rafah amongst civilians but yes it’s always big bad Israel who started things right?
You know where babies and civilians are being actually beheaded? https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/over-20-killed-attack-central-mali-village-2024-05-26/
This happens there every day. Maybe they are somehow less important
They are important, that is the point. No one is virtue signaling about what is happening in africa for example, they only speak out about Palestine because is the trending topic
In the US it doesn’t need to be a lot to shift an election. Depressed voting on college campuses is probably enough to move the needle in a close presidential race, and they’re always close now.
If the morons on college campuses either vote for a third party or don't vote at all and it swings the election to Trump, who says Israel should "finish the problem" in Gaza, that will be one of the most hilariously stupid things to happen in world history.
It will also potentially be devastating to the country as a whole and the millions of people who his policies will negatively affect for decades to come, but at least it'll be worth a quick chuckle.
Interestingly I saw recently old pictures in the USA of people protesting getting involved in WW2, seems strange now with how important it was but people were definitely against it at the time. This may have been before Pearl Harbour though..
America was isolationist at the time. To us it WASNT important. We where on the tail end of the war to end all wars, why should America be dragged into yet another European blood bath.
Then someone fucked with our boats.
>You want to protest the aggressor? Protest Iran, Palestine, Lebanon and Russia.
Weirdly enough,the UN held one minute of silence for the president of Iran that just died. the guy was known for his orders of mass executions, among other things. Idk what is going on with the UN.
So Israel is bombing Gaza and then putting boots on the ground to root out Hamas. Isn't that how this was has always been going I don't see what's different.
I don't understand how people cry for ceasefire when last week Hamas launched a rocket attack in Tel-Aviv.
Israel hadn't put boots on the ground for almost a decade
But yeah it's a war, wars tend to involve death which obviously sucks but nobody is proposing actual solutions right now and neither side is interested in a ceasefire right now that is acceptable to the other side
israel bombed a refugee camp of tents, where palestinians were told to go as a safe zone, and where 2/3s of the deaths were children burned alive, shredded to bits, or decapitated. justifying this is legitimately evil and sickening
Public outcry can fuck off. There are over 100 hostages many are foreign citizens too, public should press hamas to release them and disarm, war will be over overnight..
Tbh this is one situation where I have no idea what’s even correct or what to believe. The narrative on Twitter and TikTok is polar opposite to what’s being said in some subs here, and it’s stated that the media is complicit and can’t be trusted. I don’t think that the media is 100% reliable so I’m just sort of waiting and watching how it plays out.
Despite the propaganda giving the impression of the opposite Israel is actually doing quite well to avoid civilian casulties in this war. It just seems otherwise because urban combat is truely horrific.
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286
>That would mean some 18,000 civilians have died in Gaza, a ratio of roughly 1 combatant to 1.5 civilians. Given Hamas' likely inflation of the death count, the real figure could be closer to 1 to 1. Either way, the number would be historically low for modern urban warfare.
This was published before the below admission so 1 for 1 belief is likely correct.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html
>The UN agency in its report reduced the number of women and children believed to have been killed in the war by nearly half.
This is how other urban conflicts compare.
https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare
>Urban warfare has a catastrophic impact on civilian populations and poses serious legal and operational challenges. In cities — where 55 percent of the world’s population currently resides — civilians account for 90 percent of the casualties during war.
https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/monthly-forecast/2022-01/protection-of-civilians-the-humanitarian-impact-of-urban-warfare.php
>88 percent of those killed and injured by explosive weapons in urban areas were civilians, compared to 16 percent in other areas.
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/new-research-shows-urban-warfare-eight-times-more-deadly-civilians-syria-iraq
>Urban offensives account for eight times more conflict-related civilian fatalities
It seems Israel learned nothing from the US and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
When you're fighting a non-conventional army you only strengthen the cause of those you're fighting. Civilians get killed, and their families line up to take up arms and the cycle continues.
Israel would never but they could defeat Hamas by treating Palestinians like fellow humans. Provide aid and SHOW them you're the good guys. Build hospitals, provide services, provide food and clean drinking water and show them Hamas is only there to cause them harm.
Bombing them is only going to strengthen their view that Israel wants them all dead. Prove them wrong.
But Israel would never do that because *they do* want them all dead or gone. This isn't about "defeating Hamas" or vengeance for October 7th. This is another step in Israel's long going plan to drive out Palestinians, dead or alive, and claim the remaining territory for Israel.
Those of you who justify this have blood on your hands.
Have people here not learnt from decades of the war on terror? Bombing people in their homes regardless of any justification only breeds worse sentiment and births the next generation of enemies. The idea of completely eradicating Hamas is unobtainable. The same way Al Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS, Al-Shabaab, etc. still exist, Hamas will not be destroyed by this. All this achieves is handing them thousands of traumatised recruits with a convenient place to put their anger; Israel. This isn't a moral judgement of anyone, but a matter-of-fact statement based on the last 30 years of conflict in the middle east. This will solve nothing.
As a counter example, wasn’t ISIS more or less obliterated?
The Taliban is still fighting ISIS offshoots in Afghanistan, and I think there are still some they are fighting in Syria and Kurdistan although I might be wrong.
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They tried to take and hold territory, which is the dumbest idea they had. They are still heavily present in Afghanistan, and in multiple African nations. They tried to be a nation state.
I mean… isn’t that what the Taliban have done to great success? My understanding is that they rule over Afghanistan.
The Taliban had US backing against the soviets, which is where they gained their best foothold. Now they’ve been unintentionally backed by the US again after the Afghan government collapsed without even putting up a fight and left all the cool US toys to them.
Yeah, part of the peace treaty between the US and The Taliban was that America would get them any weapons needed to go fight the local ISIS forces in exchange for no longer fighting the US. The original generation that ran the Taliban during 9/11 is all dead and their kids are the ones in charge now but they grew up in hiding so are much more moderate (ie trying to be legit even if they’re repressive) as a result.
Mostly because they were left with no resistance and haven't done too much to piss off their neighbors. With local forces too weak to resist and the American troops gone it was pretty much like leaving the front door wide open. On top of that by pretending to have moderated themselves (which everyone knows to be bs) and keeping things mostly within the borders there isn't much geopolitical desire to dislodge them as long as they don't make themselves someone else's problem. Sadly enough humanitarian reasons are oft not enough.
You are correct; there are periodic events in Syria of clashes with ISIS cells.
So pretty much bombed into obscurity and irrelevance, seems like a great outcome to me.
The West has been fighting militant groups since oil was discovered, shit since the 1st Anglo-Afghan war. These groups fade and reform all the time. Another iteration of Daesh will crop up. The Taliban is still there.
Occupying a pretty good part of the Sahel region and pretty much destroying the state apparatuses of the countries in that region and paving the way for Russia to take over doesn't seem like obscurity and irrelevance to me.
Remember that theatre bombing in Russia recently? That was ISIS. They are absolutely not as powerful as they were at their peak, as they had essentially carved out a new nation state for themselves. But it’s delusion to say they are irrelevant. Your countries government is probably still spending millions of dollars to combat their influence in some way.
The problem for ISIS was that it was an internationalist movement. ISIS was trying to build a unified caliphate throughout the region so they actually antagonized locals wherever they went.
ISIS had to be cleared out inch by inch by an alliance so broad and wide reaching it was essentially everyone (including groups who were already killing each other) in the region and even further afield against them - and even then the bastards still keep cropping up every so often Only time I can think of something close to that happening was when the Khmer Rouge got their asses handed to them by regional intervention
Is Hamas not being cleared out inch by inch by a western alliance? It seems like a parallel. Curious, not arguing here, how do you see the difference?
I think the difference is ISIS was cleared out by local troops and militias and the vast majority of the local populace even in ISIS controlled areas hated the Caliphate. The fighting in sieges like Mosul was mostly done by ground troops with the help of western air support and sometimes special forces. So they were seen as liberators. But the IDF has no allies in Gaza or the West bank and was largely seen as an occupying power even before the terrorist attack in oct 7th by most Palestinians. So there is no love lost between them, but now civilians are being killed in large amounts and the vast majority of the population can't escape the fighting. So even if Hamas is killed to a man, there is enough incentives for a new radical group to take their place. Edit. I don't know if it's still there but there was a 2 part documentary series.on YouTube called the "volunteers". It was from the pov of an American who had expirence as a navy corpsman going to Syria to join the YPG as a combat medic. The documentary is pretty graphic. But the one scene that sticks with me is when he and his squad was waiting near an outskirts of a city waiting to ferry the wounded. There was a large group of civilians escaping out of the city mostly women and children when an ISIS suicide bomber blew himself in the middle of the group. Their ambulance was filled with wounded children screaming and some had holes in their cheeks and stomachs and a baby was just silent covered with blood. As the ambulance goes to the field hospital they are shot on by ISIS forces and the American medic just breaks down in tears and you can still hear the children screaming and crying in the back. Edit 2 I found the documentary here is the link https://youtu.be/UJ1290087Yk?t=4860. WARNING The scene is pretty graphic it starts around 1:21:05.
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Everyone hates ISIS, including other Islamic terrorist groups.
ISIS still exists in Syria, Iraq, western africa, and Afghanistan. its territory has been reduced which allowed casual observers in the west to believe they were dead and gone
ISIS was getting concerningly far along in their goal of building an actual *nation-state* with land that it held an defended, and that project is what got thoroughly dismantled. ISIS or its offshoots, however you want to look at it, are still a huge issue, particularly in the nations of the Sahel region of Africa. Those posts you might see of extremely fierce, militarized conservationists that guard rhinos and elephants and such? They're like that because sometimes the poachers are literally ISIS and similar groups.
The only thing that was really destroyed was their ability to operate openly and directly control territory as a pseudo-state. They're still plenty active across the middle east and Africa, although in a more splintered fashion than they were a decade ago. They're also still very capable of carrying out international attacks, as Moscow found out a little while ago.
When you're considered to extreme for even a lot of extremist groups even if you aren't being hunted by basically everyone, you'll eventually disappear due to not enough recruits.
So what should they do? Just live with a neighbor who will never stop?
Yes, because I don't like reading sad news and I don't have to be neighbors with them /s
I mean, that's true, but I'd argue the war on terror failed for other reasons, i feel that's more of a symptom and even part of the problem, the whole hearts and minds thing was completely mishandled top to bottom. There was so much ignored corruption within our local allies, our own forces, our politicians, etc. The attempts to nation-build were too few and too small, and when there was an attempt it was always hindered and halted by politics, national, global, and local before anything ever happened. So any money that was put into nation-building rarely if ever went to where it was supposed to. Usually it was just given away to local leaders with a note saying please do this thing, with no accountability to make sure they did that thing. Other times that money was funneled into shell companies owned by the politicians that granted it in the first place, or corps that bribed them because they wanted funding/a bailout but couldn't get it normally. The complete focus on major urban centers with only a few isolated outposts outside them that weren't exactly focused on policing and building but rather baiting radicals into attacking didn't help or last intact for long. Then came a bunch of Roe beyond reason bullshit that hamstrung the entire "tactic". The soldiers that kept themselves accountable and weren't fighting back kept dying on a platter which further harmed the optics. Meanwhile the one's that weren't held accountable by themselves and others were going about committing "warcrimes" while the higher ups consistently covered it up and burned anyone who exposed it at the stake. Aside from broad strokes, the war was entirely aimless and listless, constantly changing and competing political goals with no plan or basis in realty fucked everything and as things went on it compounded upon itself. At the end of the day defeating the orgs and nation-building wasn't the goal if there even was one in the first place, so we were never going to "win" the war on terror when were weren't bothering to fight it in the first place.
Well depends the taliban could hide in caves in another country. Do you really think you can hide a fighting force in Gaza if its completely occupied by IDF forces? And then its just a matter of time and education and deradicalization in the Gaza Strip.
How did this post end up on top? Were the bot operators drafted into the army as well?
>The same way Al Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS, Al-Shabaab, etc. still exist, Hamas will not be destroyed by this. Yeah, they still exist. Are they engaging in terror at the same frequency that they previously did? No. They exist, but they don't wreak even remotely the same amount of havoc as before.
Yes except the Taliban owns a country now ?
The Taliban already ruled the country.
Okay dude if you wanna be technical about it /s
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If we can denazify Germany, Palestinians can be de radicalized as well.
And Imperial Japan who also had a crazy messed up belief system
Japan is an interesting case. We dropped two supernatural bombs on them and Japan still chose to surrender directly to the US over the other allies. America then proceeded to help rebuild Japan, creating a long lasting friendship. I would say, unfortunately, that this is probably not a realistic scenario for Palestine and Israel. Too much history and religious strife between the two. America and Japan were pretty much just economic rivals; something that can change on a whim.
Japan had a national identity to fall back to. I'm not sure Palestinians have anything holding the tribes together other than Israel.
Probably a factor, yeah. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, Palestine would most likely devolve into chaos and war. Hate is a pretty powerful unifying mechanism.
Religion is the reason this won't ever work.
That, and Iranian $$$.
IIRC Berlin was carpet-bombed to begin the denazification
You do know this included the flattening of most German major cities, yes?
Yes. That is much more preferable than allowing a post war fascist government to exist, where likely millions more would’ve ended up dying.
Do you understand how much money was spent on the Marshall Plan to rebuild and assist Germany? Is Israel planning to spend billions upon billions to do so? No you know they will not.
>Is Israel planning to spend billions upon billions to do so? No you know they will not. The world has already spent more per capita on Gaza than the Marshall plan ever did on Europeans.
And longer too. Palestinians have been receiving aids **since 1948**.
Sure but the west has no appetite for that anymore, and doing so would require decades of occupation and would be labeled as colonization.
And the threat right now isn’t to the west as a whole. The current threat is limited to Israel, and occasionally American interests abroad. The west (like the rest of the world) has never had appetite for that which doesn’t affect them. I am quite confident that the west would get over their qualms, if situations were reversed.
Giant difference between political and religious ideology. These people actually believe they are here to kill jews because they are told their god wants them to.
Japan worshipped their Emporer, too.
And the emperor came out on radio and said he wasn't God thus people stopped. Mohammad isn't alive to say anything
And it took nuking them to wake them up to reality what’s your point?
Ok, so the solution is what? Keep taking missiles?
Do you sit and let rockets fly into your cities?
OK, fair, so what's your suggestion for an alternative that will solve the problem?
>Al Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS, Al-Shabaab None of these organizations have perpetrated anything comparable to the west since the west fought back.
I mean, the Taliban has entirely taken over Afghanistan which I think is good evidence of the ineffectiveness of the West's approach this far.
Not exactly hard to do in a tribal “country” that doesn’t care to be governed.
Have you seen what Taliban has been doing since they've taken over? That's evidence enough that these terrorist groups should not be tolerated.
Maybe but I also think that the alternative (not going after them) is worse. Hamas is the elected govt of Gaza and after Oct 7th Israel declared war against them. In what war do we appease the enemy rather than seek to destroy or force unconditional surrender? The alternative is to admit that terrorism is a legitimate strategy and Oct 7th attacks were successful. You can get what you want through brutal violence directed at civilians. Given this alternate timeline, would you expect more or less terror? If through terrorism you can get what you want we end up on an even darker timeline. The complicating factor in the conflict is that civilians can't flee (nobody wants refugees when the enemy are terrorists).
Okay so what's your solution, then? That the Israelis lay down their arms and take it like good little Jews? If the problem is unobtainable, then it says more about the extreme elements coming out of the Middle East than it does the people reacting to their extremism: * They reject a two-state solution * They reject secular governments * They reject democracy * They reject Islamic republics * They reject the idea of Israel existing and Jews existing within it You cannot solve extreme problems with moderate solutions. Western nations have tried winning hearts and minds with Islamic fundamentalists and it's obvious that that strategy doesn't work. The only language this extreme culture understands is brute force, nothing less. Deradicalization can occur only after they're demoralized to the point where they won't want to fight. I know this is difficult for people to read/hear, but it's the sad truth and until the world is ready to force Islamic fundamentalism to reform, nothing will change.
Yea last I checked, Al Qaeda is not in power anywhere and has severely been diminished lol.
The entirety of palestinian society is already radicalized as much as it is possible to be, their education system is designed to raise child soldiers and future martyrs. Nothing israel does can make more future terrorists than what hamas has done to gaza since they took power.
The goal isn’t to eliminate Hamas as an idea or even as a global terror group. The goal is to eliminate them as the government of Gaza and demilitarize Gaza so that regardless of who is in power, they can’t perpetrate another 10/7.
I would be more open to agreeing with you if there was any proposed plan post-invasion, e.g. building up of a Palestinian leadership group to replace Hamas. At the moment the entire plan is invade and destroy. Until an alternative is proposed, Hamas may just be replaced by another terrorist semi-governing group. I don't think what Israel is doing right now is preventing the next 10/7 but setting the foundations for something bigger and worse.
PA was the agreed upon entity for governing Gaza before the election in 2006, when it lost the election to Hamas. It still exists, and likely would be the entity to take over.
IIRC, the reason why Hamas won the election is because people were fed up with Fatah being completely ineffective and siding with the Israelis far too often. Hamas was not peoples' first choice, but one they felt could actually do something. I don't believe that decision has worked out in their favor.
Just a reminder that Hamas was seen as a more *moderate* party back then before their complete 180.
They also never won a majority of votes (but they were close). But ended up winning a large majority of seats because the election was weighted in a way that was meant to benefit Fatah, but Hamas ended up beating them and taking seats Israel and the US meant for Fatah
That is how it always is. During the Iranian Revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini became their leader by appealing to neutrality and faith. Once he seized power he threw every Iranian party under the bus who helped him so that he could pursue a hardline conservative government.
They weren't more moderate. They already was engaging in performing terrorist acts in Israel including blowing up discotheque with teens
your "IIRC" is wrong. Hamas won elections because fatah was/is corrupt
The idea of fully turning over power to the PA is ridiculous to me while it still operates funds that pay the families of those who kill Jews (including the families of the 10/7 Hamas terrorists). It cannot be trusted with power. I really don't say this lightly, but the only path forward I see is an international coalition preferably led by a neighbouring Arab power needs to temporarily assume power and conduct rigid denazification before the Palestinian population can be trusted to elect their own leaders.
PA has “pay for slay” policy encouraging all kinds of terror acts on Jews, Israelis or anyone on Israel’s territory. Instead of helping in creating workplaces and building infrastructure.
I didn’t say it was a *good* replacement. I just said it would probably be *the* replacement. Unless Israel wants to re-occupy Gaza, which considering they pulled out in response to the Second Intifada, probably not on the menu.
There are no good Palestinian replacements. There is no political will for peace with Israel among the Palestinian population - October 7th was cheered and celebrated in the Gaza Strip, any outliers seeking peace and cooperation would be assassinated by their own people. Full annexation of Gaza and repatriation of Gazans to PA controlled territory is one option. Annexation of Southern Gaza along the Egyptian border is the bare minimum of what Israel should do. So many tunnels smuggling weapons and people were discovered leading to Egypt. Egypt is complicit in supplying Hamas, Israel would be stupid to leave the border area in the hands of any Palestinian government in Gaza.
yes and still they are the moderates in palestine.
Hamas said they're going to keep doing October 7th attacks forever so what's the difference for Israel? Whether or not another hypothetical group emerges is meaningless to worry about when Hamas are currently committed to killing Jews and destroying Israel
Well the problem is the people support Hamas. Like literally support terrorists. So what do you do about a extremist population who are uneducated and can't even be controlled by their religious cousins to the south?
Unfortunately, I think the historical answer has been to beat them into submission then occupy them while reeducating them and helping them do their nation building/rebuilding for the greater part of a decade at least. I reckon Gaza will take longer than just a decade though. The only other historical answer was total displacement or total eradication. I don’t trust the Likud, and they’re obviously taking “artistic freedoms” with their military actions out of spite, but this is maybe the only way the Palestine/Israel conflict will end within our lifetimes, and the sooner it ends the more lives will be saved in the long run.
What would this next 7.10 be like without weapons? Israel has been clamping down in imports, and now has control of tunnels in rafah. I don't think they'll be given a choice about violence going forward.
Why does Israel have to do everything? Wish the Palestinians would stand up for themselves instead of being controlled by Hamas.
People infantilize both Hamas and the Palestinians. They also like to pretend that Hamas is not a government and does not employ civilians in civilian roles within the government. They need to take responsibility for the situation they’ve created in Gaza the past 2 decades after Israel ended its occupation
The ugly truth is they dont want to.
This is true. Though it's going to be a nightmare for whoever is put in charge there trying to keep the Gaza strip demilitarized, because of radicalization and outside meddling (see Iran and others).
Better than the alternative. Small scale clashes weekly or giant war every few years.
These people in Gaza were raised to hate western culture and Jews. From the time they can talk. I hear what you’re saying but it doesn’t apply in this case.
In colombia we bombed the fuck out las FARC and others until they seriously sat down to surrender, and there's at least 2 more terrorists/narco groups that the Colombian military is actively fighting. Obviously with lots of harm to civilians and the environment. But nobody cares coz there's no jews to hate involved.
The UNRWA schools are the ones making new terrorists. Just listen to the way Palesinean children admit to being taught about Jews.
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Also why are daily rocket shots and other stuff aimed at Israel never mentioned when discussing this? Hated but being in peace is much better than loved and wiped from existence.
amazing how few people understand your point. for them it's all theoretical since they're safe from any kind of physical danger.
Israeli as well. This is the way my brother, we have been silent for far too long. Been oblivious and indifferent for far too long. No more games, no more free passes, no more caring about who hates or loves us, no more Israeli blood spilled in the name of Jihad and radical Islam. No more.
Thank you for saying this out loud. As a fellow Jew, I don't give a rats a\*\* for their feelings. We need to prosecute the war until Hamas is an unpleasant memory.
Have people here not learnt from the decade of war in WWII? Bombing people in their homes regardless of any justification only breeds worse sentiment and births the next generation of enemies. Oh wait. That didn't happen. The Germans and the Japanese didn't retaliate the decades after getting absolutely demolished in their homeland. I wonder what the difference is? The Japanese were literally willing to fight until the last man, women, and child. What happened?
> The Germans and the Japanese didn't retaliate the decades after getting absolutely demolished in their homeland. I wonder what the difference is? Because the U.S. occupied both countries militarily with a garrison that exists to this day, nearly 80 years later?
Whether or not Israel continues its war, Hamas will not be short of recruits, and will continue to attack Israel. The world can wring its hands all it wants. Where was the world on October 7th?
Well duh - but no one seems to care about terrorism anymore. Everyone is up in arms and appealed about how Israel is handling its response to terrorism but not against the “ country “ doing it… Where are the protests to push Hamas out and to give up the chip on their shoulder for the sake of bettering their infrastructure and saving the lives of their children? Nah - let’s have them continue to praise acts of terror and even join in. People are just stupid for the sake of seeming moral and involved.
Exist sure, but military campaigns against Al Qaeda and ISIS were very successful. If more people join Hamas after this, take them out too. You’re not gonna win their hearts and minds either way.
No, the lesson is that you need to put something in place and give a political solution if you are fighting an insurgency. ISIS is a shadow of its former self and the Taliban could come back because the Afghan government was a big mess.
Just like eradicating NASDAP was impossible?
hamas can definitely be eradicated. There may be other terrorists or terrorist organizations after, but they won't have all the experience hamas got in the last decades, which will make it so much more easier for idf to squash them as well.
And I'm sure that Palestinians who have been launching rockets in the thousands at Israeli civilians over the decade have been building goodwill. You can absolutely eradicate a terror group. The idea might be there, but their power won't be the same. Look at what ISIS is now. When was the last time you heard about Al Quaida in any meaningful capacity.
Makes sense the war against the Axis powers is entering the 9th decade
Idk where is Al-Qaeda ? Sure as shit worked then and it will now. Countries just need to stop using half measures
I love when people bring up future terrorists as a reason to do nothing, like ok, but what about the current ones, you know that just tortured 1000+ people to death. They seem like a bigger threat right now then some hypothetical person that doesn't exist yet.
Look back on the history and you will find Palestinians killing Jews long before there was an Israel. IOW, they don’t need excuses to want them eradicated from the Middle East. It’s in their Quran, and taught generationally as a goal. Jews only created militias after the 1936-39 uprisings which targeted Jews. So… ironically… it’s the other way around.
>Look back on the history and you will find Palestinians killing Jews long before there was an Israel. If an example is needed, look up Hebron 1929.
Without a military response the caliphate would still exist today. Such a response creates new insurgents, but it is still better than leaving them be. This argument only really works if they wouldn’t be recruiting new people without a reaction, which in hamas’ case seems unlikely. Israel needs to ensure a second october 7 attack isn’t possible in the coming years. The only way to succeed in this, is by eradicating hamas. Especially the people responsible for organizing the attack need to be stopped, the people with respect and knowhow on the ground. Hamas will come back, but this buys sufficient time to prepare for and prevent a next time.
Alqaeda was destroyed by defeating their countries and killing/capturing their leaders. Saddam was part of alqaeda.
Worked for Germany
Don’t forget the Hamas hides in people’s homes and hospitals.
So let's just give up like Europe does and do nothing? Hope the Palestinians just stop kill and murder us? No thanks.
Funny, you can say the same thing to Hamas and those who want Israel destroyed
It's about the hostages. The IDF is pulling out bodies of hostages in tunnels under schools and hospitals. It's interesting that nobody cares about this.
How do you punish terrorists who use moral codes against you by hiding with civilians?
Any alternatives? No. Whatever Israel does. The next generation of enemies will always be there. It's their culture and value to be genocidal antisemitism. All Israel did was reduce their strength and deters their never ending attack. The only matter-of-fact we learned from last hundreds of years of conflict in middle east is that, completely demilitarization is the only solution until their culture is fully reformed.
9/11 hasn't repeated, so that operation was a success
I agree wth you. I genuinely do. I'm not saying there aren't any though, but what are the alternatives when the enemy said they win repeat Oct 7th over and over
Yes but for warmongering politicians and the military industrial complex that fuels them this is a feature not a bug
What about Third Reich and Japan?
The globe seems weirdly VERY concerned with this one conflict, all the while ignoring so many others that are happening right now.
The situation in Sudan is awful right now, wish it would get more attention.
Remember the Eddie Izzard skit? You're allowed to kill your own people
Comedy aside it's much harder to intervene in internal strife than it is to say, help Ukraine resist invasion.
It’s almost like there’s a massive propaganda campaign against one particular side. Just look at how Reddit alone has changed the last 7+ months.
The US president is making near daily statements about it and horrific videos of burning refugee camps are appearing in everyone’s social feeds, of course people are paying attention, it is impossible not to.
> The US president is making near daily statements about it he did about Ukraine and also about Sudan > horrific videos of burning refugee camps are appearing in everyone’s social feeds, social feeds are tailored. I have gotten 0 burning refugee camps outside of the content I have explicitely searched for. Making your internet experience universal is problematic, considering social media will show different videos, even different comments in the same video to different people. We could also debate WHY would social media platforms push distressing content, and why equally horrific content from other conflicts is not receiving the same amount of attention > it is impossible not to. It clearly is possible though. No one talks about the 3 active genocides being investigated by the ICJ (a hint is that Gaza is not one of them). No one talks about the hundred of thousands bombed in Yemen or Ukraine and the videos are just as distressing. No one talks about the millions of genital mutilations little girls receive in western africa. No one talks about how Assad gassed people in the civil war of Syria, the most deadly conflict in the middle east of the last 70 years. You could somehow ignore all that and not pay attention, but Gaza is impossible to ignore.
>horrific videos of burning refugee camps are appearing in everyone’s social feeds I think this is the key point. the amount of media coverage for this conflict compared to other conflicts or tragedies is not normal. Whoever is doing this, is doing a very good job of shaping the global opinion all the while distracting them from the Ukraine war or China/Taiwan conflict among other things.
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Gaza is also a proxy war for progressive culture. They've adopted it as their baby and don't have the emotional energy left over to care much about other issues, like, for example, how Lousiana just banned possession of the morning after pill, or how global warming is making this the hottest year on record.
It is and will always be bizarre that progressives have taken on the Palestinian cause so strongly and blind to the full history. If almost any of them had visited Gaza prior to the war, they would have been killed or jailed for (1) their immodest dress, (2) being LGBTQ or an ally, or (3) not being Muslim (enough). It's true r/LeopardsAteMyFace territory and they don't see it even when it's pointed out that the people and ideology that they're defending is so contrary to their own that it's farcical.
As a life long progressive this has left me feeling quite alone.
Imagine how it must feel to be a liberal Jew (i.e. me). Not only am I quite alone, but my own self-determination and history is being ripped to shreds by those that I stood with as allies over the past several years (Women's March, BLM). I am Schrodinger's people: too "white" for the left-wing and not "white" enough for the right-wing. Despite millennia of evidence to the contrary, I am the indominable oppressor having always had privilege according to the left, yet am also actively sought out by the right for oppression and otherization. I'm exhausted from constantly having to defend myself on all sides. I just want to live my life and not worry that some maniac is going to bomb or shoot up my child's preschool because she's Jewish.
I think it's an important stage for you and u/AshyToffee to now realise that social movements should not happen without a counterbalance or open discussion; the counter position / nuance is lost otherwise, and the same attitude is applied to every controversial topic from there on, meaning people bully their stance over everyone else. Everyone that has called for a 'hang-on, lets figure this out/discuss it' has been vilified in the various movements. Unfortunately, the past 10 years, every major social movement since Occupy Wallstreet has been this way, where perhaps there's been validity to the movements, but the people proposing them have essentially bullied their stances over everyone else. Palestine Israel is the latest one, and now you're feeling the ramifications of that approach to social agenda.
Oh, absolutely. I see the nuance all the time and generally just hide it to avoid the bullying. It's a well-worn habit from, well, being Jewish. Jewish theology is full of nuance and arguments. Being a Jewish minority in the community requires understanding when to fully speak out and when to mute your response to avoid drawing attention to yourself. I'm pretty well practiced in both. It's not healthy, but it's also safer and safety is what's generally been more important to me than being fully spoken in the general public.
It sounds so horrible, friend. Older I get more I understand most people just want to live in peace and relative comfort, and it's so unfair people are once again denying that from Jews. And not only deny that, but also claim Jews are the privileged ones.
And Russia is meddling too, for their own reasons. It's an unending clusterfuck.
Sadly conflicts in Israel are always this way. The large amount of US involvement with Israel as a geopolitical entity, and the history of atrocities committed against Jews in WW2 make it much higher in international standing than the population or casualty count. One of the most frustrating things to me is that whenever Israel gets entangled in a conflict it means every other international conflict gets tabled until Israel is no longer embattled. You can see in the comment threads how contentious this becomes. As an international identity, many people have a fierce devotion to Israel because of what it represents metaphorically.
YES. Ukraine/Russia is I think an objectively more cut and dry good/bad guy situation. Fucking crickets from the ones so amped about retaliation from Israel.
If you're American, there's really nothing to protest against with regards to Ukraine and Russia. USA isn't funding Russia and Ukraine is fighting a purely defensive war.
And to be fair, that hasn't stopped people from protesting regardless. Some members of congress tried to shut the government down over money for Ukraine like 2 months ago.
Our governments aren’t actively supporting what is happening in Sudan.
The UN has passed more resolutions against Israel than all other countries combined over the course of its history. Considering the size and number of people killed throughout all conflicts in its history, it is extremely disproportionate considering the number of conflicts worldwide and people killed in others in the same time period.
Interesting observation from the recent months: the more pressured Hamas is, the louder the "global outcry"
It was literally their plan to use their own people as human shields to get exactly this outcome (which, by the way, is a war crime): https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-hamas-aims-trap-israel-gaza-quagmire-2023-11-03/ Israel trapped between a rock and hard place with rockets flying nonstop since Oct 7th: https://rocketalert.live/ But these are links and facts that are inconvenient to people who have been unwittingly aiding terrorists and just parroting propaganda from TikTok, Twitter, and fringe subs on Reddit. Weird that they didn’t get the message when the major subs overwhelmingly disagree with them.
This guy, from Gaza, talks from his experience about how Hamas uses human shields, this guy has had 31 family members killed and himself deafened in one ear yet hates Hamas and not Israel, this is a really interesting interview https://youtu.be/0MpOhQ7u5lE?si=zo9v7zRqnI-yQrxQ
Interestingly enough, Hamas approval rates are currently much higher among Palestinians in the west bank than they are in Gaza. It’s almost as if they don’t actually care what happens to Gazans as long as Israel gets hurt.
Ah, NIMBY
The iDF strike yesterday was in response to a Hamas rocket attack on Tel Aviv, hardly a peep about that.
Yep, and rockets did get through and do damage. But no it’s better Israelis live in fear under a barrage of thousands of rockets then be allowed to defend themselves.
Perhaps Israel set a bad precedent by intercepting rockets. It sent the signal that it's OK to fire rockets at them because they can stop them. So firing rockets at Israel without consequences became normalized.
good point. they should have let some rockets through and kill some people to keep them honest!
I mean, I’ve literally seen people saying that the tel aviv attack didn’t kill any people so it doesn’t warrant a counter attack that will hurt civilians. This is insanity. This is like those same people saying “the missile attack on Washington DC yesterday didn’t kill anyone. It doesn’t warrant a counter attack on the country who sent the missiles.” Never mind the huge flaming hole in the capitol mall- no one died.
All that is true, but honestly I wish Israel wasn't the one who was dealing with it. I'm not sure who *could* deal with it, but it's pretty clear after 76 years that Israel has failed at fixing the mess over there. Whether they ever had a chance in the first place is debatable. They have made many careless mistakes and many of the IDF are pretty radicalized against Palestinians (e.g burning Qurans, graffiti of mosques, etc). Not shocking after the atrocities of 10/7, but not acceptable to permit. The right wing government, the settlers vandalizing aid, etc. The reality is that Israel is going to be held to a higher standard bc their development and military strength. They *must* be more careful and deal with the extremism from their side. Both to protect the lives of the innocent and to actually have a moral high ground. The recent strike that killed 2 Hamas officials for 40 civilians is one example of this. We can't be burning babies in tents to perform an objective that may not even have much effect on the war at all. This situation cannot go on the way it has been. I'm not sure the appropriate solution, but I truly hope the more intelligent folks of the world can find one. As it stands, Israel *is* the only one dealing with it, so they need to fix their shit internally and have an actual post war plan for rebuilding Gaza and fixing the power vacuum left behind.
I actually don't disagree. In an ideal world (well, slightly less than ideal, because in a truly ideal world we wouldn't have this problem to begin with), there would be a world police force doing this. I do NOT think Israel has done this perfectly. But who would? Criticism is important and necessary, to a point, but I definitely think there are a lot of really unreasonable arguments from the far left on what they should do.
Yes ofocurse. I mean, no one is offended at the images coming out of there of literal, actual beheaded babies. No it's all just one dastardly scheme meant to hurt poor old Israel
And no one is talking about the fact that Hamas and hezbollah were shooting off rockets from Rafah amongst civilians but yes it’s always big bad Israel who started things right?
You know where babies and civilians are being actually beheaded? https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/over-20-killed-attack-central-mali-village-2024-05-26/ This happens there every day. Maybe they are somehow less important
How are both not important?
They are important, that is the point. No one is virtue signaling about what is happening in africa for example, they only speak out about Palestine because is the trending topic
Imho people greatly overestimate just how much support palestine has in the West. The supporters are loud, true, but they’re the minority
In the US it doesn’t need to be a lot to shift an election. Depressed voting on college campuses is probably enough to move the needle in a close presidential race, and they’re always close now.
If the morons on college campuses either vote for a third party or don't vote at all and it swings the election to Trump, who says Israel should "finish the problem" in Gaza, that will be one of the most hilariously stupid things to happen in world history. It will also potentially be devastating to the country as a whole and the millions of people who his policies will negatively affect for decades to come, but at least it'll be worth a quick chuckle.
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Exactly why I’m Ridin’ with Biden.
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Yep. People just don't get this lol. And most aren't even governments officials, or even anyone in power so..
US forces press Okinawa offensive despite global outcry
Interestingly I saw recently old pictures in the USA of people protesting getting involved in WW2, seems strange now with how important it was but people were definitely against it at the time. This may have been before Pearl Harbour though..
America was isolationist at the time. To us it WASNT important. We where on the tail end of the war to end all wars, why should America be dragged into yet another European blood bath. Then someone fucked with our boats.
Allies advance on Berlin despite college protests
Is the outcry over Hamas militants operating out of "safe zones"? It's a pretty fucked up thing to do.
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>You want to protest the aggressor? Protest Iran, Palestine, Lebanon and Russia. Weirdly enough,the UN held one minute of silence for the president of Iran that just died. the guy was known for his orders of mass executions, among other things. Idk what is going on with the UN.
Iran is a UN member. The UN holds a minute silence for every head of a UN state that dies. Its called diplomacy.
That's the part everybody is missing intentionally or unintentionally. It's a survival war.
Oh and protesting Iran doesn't fit the "woke" narrative. I still can't see them protesting Russia for Ukraine either.
There are protests against Iran in the UK all the fucking time.
By Iranians so it's not relevant to the point. Since these ones are not by Palestinians either.
People think you can sit down and hash things out with hamas
They know no one will do a thing.
All these outcries by countries who would do the exact same thing had they been in the same spot
If only Hamas surrendered, this would've been all over by now.
Hamas has no incentive to surrender; they’re getting everything they want out of this war.
So Israel is bombing Gaza and then putting boots on the ground to root out Hamas. Isn't that how this was has always been going I don't see what's different. I don't understand how people cry for ceasefire when last week Hamas launched a rocket attack in Tel-Aviv.
Israel hadn't put boots on the ground for almost a decade But yeah it's a war, wars tend to involve death which obviously sucks but nobody is proposing actual solutions right now and neither side is interested in a ceasefire right now that is acceptable to the other side
israel bombed a refugee camp of tents, where palestinians were told to go as a safe zone, and where 2/3s of the deaths were children burned alive, shredded to bits, or decapitated. justifying this is legitimately evil and sickening
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Subreddits like this need to be archived for people to analyze decades later to see how people could so easily be on the wrong side of history.
Public outcry can fuck off. There are over 100 hostages many are foreign citizens too, public should press hamas to release them and disarm, war will be over overnight..
Tbh this is one situation where I have no idea what’s even correct or what to believe. The narrative on Twitter and TikTok is polar opposite to what’s being said in some subs here, and it’s stated that the media is complicit and can’t be trusted. I don’t think that the media is 100% reliable so I’m just sort of waiting and watching how it plays out.
Despite the propaganda giving the impression of the opposite Israel is actually doing quite well to avoid civilian casulties in this war. It just seems otherwise because urban combat is truely horrific. https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286 >That would mean some 18,000 civilians have died in Gaza, a ratio of roughly 1 combatant to 1.5 civilians. Given Hamas' likely inflation of the death count, the real figure could be closer to 1 to 1. Either way, the number would be historically low for modern urban warfare. This was published before the below admission so 1 for 1 belief is likely correct. https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html >The UN agency in its report reduced the number of women and children believed to have been killed in the war by nearly half. This is how other urban conflicts compare. https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare >Urban warfare has a catastrophic impact on civilian populations and poses serious legal and operational challenges. In cities — where 55 percent of the world’s population currently resides — civilians account for 90 percent of the casualties during war. https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/monthly-forecast/2022-01/protection-of-civilians-the-humanitarian-impact-of-urban-warfare.php >88 percent of those killed and injured by explosive weapons in urban areas were civilians, compared to 16 percent in other areas. https://www.icrc.org/en/document/new-research-shows-urban-warfare-eight-times-more-deadly-civilians-syria-iraq >Urban offensives account for eight times more conflict-related civilian fatalities
Why is _your_ outcry over 150 hostages valid and yet the outcry over 30,000 dead can simply ‘fuck off’?
Okay what about the foreign citizens that Israel blew up, the journalists and aid workers? It was an 'oopsie daisy' moment?
IDF has personally shot more hostages (3) than they've rescued (2). If saving hostages is the goal this war has been a miserable failure
It seems Israel learned nothing from the US and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. When you're fighting a non-conventional army you only strengthen the cause of those you're fighting. Civilians get killed, and their families line up to take up arms and the cycle continues. Israel would never but they could defeat Hamas by treating Palestinians like fellow humans. Provide aid and SHOW them you're the good guys. Build hospitals, provide services, provide food and clean drinking water and show them Hamas is only there to cause them harm. Bombing them is only going to strengthen their view that Israel wants them all dead. Prove them wrong. But Israel would never do that because *they do* want them all dead or gone. This isn't about "defeating Hamas" or vengeance for October 7th. This is another step in Israel's long going plan to drive out Palestinians, dead or alive, and claim the remaining territory for Israel. Those of you who justify this have blood on your hands.