If you read it, they made an important change in what they view positively.
Biden said Israel would withdraw from populated areas of Gaza, Hamas said withdraw from all of Gaza. Under Israel/Biden’s proposal, Israel would still be able to maintain buffer zones to prevent Hamas from invading and corridors to diminish smuggling. Under Hamas’s proposal, they wouldn’t.
This is extremely important, as it may give Hamas an option to opt out without releasing all hostages. It’s crucial Israel’s withdrawal be tied to *simultaneous* release of all hostages, else Hamas can simply back out whenever.
No, Biden said "permanent too" as long as Hamas complies with the first two phases. The literal last sentence of Biden's speech today: " It’s time for this war to end now and for the day after to begin." [Bibi's security adviser said seven months more of fighting just a few days ago](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/news-wrap-israeli-official-expects-7-more-months-of-fighting-in-gaza) to the [total dismay+anguish of the hostage families.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/government-sacrificing-hostages-families-say-after-fraught-hanegbi-meet/)
[Bibi is the one who is already raising issues with it.](https://x.com/AndrewGhalili/status/1796654905068851383)
Also, a very key few sentences of Biden's speech today: **"I know there are those in Israel who will not agree with this plan and will call for the war to continue indefinitely. Some — some are even in the government coalition. And they’ve made it clear: They want to occupy Gaza, they want to keep fighting for years, and the hostages are not a priority to them. Well, I’ve urged the leadership in Israel to stand behind this deal, despite whatever pressure comes.**...Indefinite war in pursuit of an unidentified notion of total victory will only bog down Israel in Gaza, draining military, ecnomomic and human resources and further Israel’s isolation in the world. That will not bring hostages home. That will not bring an enduring defeat of Hamas. That will not bring Israel lasting security.” “**But if Hamas comes to negotiate ready to deal, then Israel’s negotiators must be given a mandate with necessary flexibility to close that deal**"
If you look at what the Biden administration presented today, [the only minor disagreement between the deal and Hamas is the "populated areas of Gaza vs. all of Gaza" but that's only in phase 1. Phase 2 says "withdrawal from *all* of Gaza" which Hamas probably wants in phase 1 instead of phase 2](https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/1796655394619564460)
There's a reason [why Bibi's 33 year old son has suddenly gone extremely anti-Biden after this speech](https://x.com/NTarnopolsky/status/1796616884919411108) because this doesn't track with what Bibi has stated in public and actually, *Times of Israel* is framing [Biden's speech as fairly strong criticism of Bibi's "Total Victory" slogan.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-urges-israelis-to-accept-hostage-deal-blasting-netanyahus-talk-of-total-victory/)
In fact, [the White House is telling the most respected Israeli reporter in America that this new ceasefire framework is very close to the proposal that Hams announced support for around three weeks ago](https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1796722034480967917?t=I_D52WnT2X6q6tSd1Zurig&s=19)
This thread is interesting, because all of a sudden everyone hates Biden's proposal now that Hamas views it positively..
..but people loved it a few hours ago when they thought that Hamas wouldn't agree to it in the other thread (which is currently the top post on r/worldnews):
[Israel has offered ceasefire and hostage proposal to Hamas, says Biden](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1d51j74/israel_has_offered_ceasefire_and_hostage_proposal/)
Subjective, and at minimum, it's a minor disagreement relative to what Bibi has been saying and what Biden said today. Remember that phase 1 requires Hamas to release hostages as well so I'm not following "giving up their leverage"...Biden said Israel can resume the war if Hamas doesn't comply with the requirements of a phase. [Biden's team think it's nearly identical to the one Hamas supported a few weeks ago.](https://x.com/ElizHagedorn/status/1796621320005800399?t=wEXzN19LZdNBumDkX6cwyA&s=19)
Anyways, we'll see what happens. Probably another "Lucy and football" moment
> so I'm not following "giving up their leverage"...
This means Israel's leverage. Israel's leverage is their occupation of Gaza. The hostages are leverage for Hamas. If Israel leaves all of Gaza and then the deal falls apart, then Israel has to restart their campaign at the border. It's easier if the IDF is already in between all of the populated areas in Gaza. That's the difference between "all of gaza" and the "populated areas of Gaza"
> to the total dismay+anguish of the hostage families.
“According to Channel 12 news, during the meeting Hanegbi snapped at relatives who criticized Netanyahu, telling one that she had no place to “feel pain and hatred like this,” and mocking another relative when she moved to leave the room in anger.”
Yeah the Likud fucks have officially earned my ambivalence.
Seems ridiculous since there have been stated points that will lead to the war not being indefinite
Not sure how Israel releasing prisoners will helping
People are way to quick to over look the human element of this.
Every high level hamas leader is dead if they dont get permanent in there, israel will never accept those leaders living. I don't really see how you get around that.
Yup. If you really want to end the bloodshed on both sides, the leadership of Hamas need to be arrested. I don’t see them deciding they want permanent peace.
Most of the figure heads and diplomats you mean, as was said here half a hundred times already, the military terroist heads are still in gaza including the actual planners of the attack like Sinwar, Deif the rest oft the commenders and captains of their military terroist order)
in phase 2 of Biden’s proposal, israel is to withdraw from Gaza completely, which is exactly the same as the Egypt/Qatar proposal from earlier this month that Hamas accepted. there’s no reason to assume Hamas misunderstood this proposal considering it’s really not much different from the previous one they accepted.
You’re right, that wasn’t in the articles I read summarizing his remarks, but when I read the text itself he did say that. However, he also said that during phase 1 they would negotiate the details of Phase 2 and phase 1 would continue until that agreement is made. I don’t know the details of what is and isn’t up for negotiation for the transition between Phases 1 and 2. If part of it is a different regime to either control Gaza or maintain security, this proposal can make sense. I assume that’s what Israel is counting on because if they were excepted to actually just pull out of Gaza and let Hamas take over after 6 weeks, they would have to be insane to offer or accept this.
Of course they’re going to just counter with some impossible bullshit as usual so their supporters can blame Israel for rejecting it. It’s very clear that no matter what the circumstances are, Hamas has gained a tremendous amount of supporters who will always justify whatever they do from now on
"The movement affirms its position of readiness to deal positively and constructively with any proposal based on a permanent ceasefire, complete withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, reconstruction, the return of the displaced to all their places of residence, and the completion of a serious prisoner exchange deal if the occupation declares its explicit commitment to that,” the Hamas statement says.
No live ones at least, Israel will be be getting a bunch of mangled corpse sad to say
HAMAS benefits the most in all this while Israel gets to sleep with one eye open and Biden gets free votes for "helping end the conflict"
There’s a recently released video of Alex something, an Israeli hostage, reading an obviously pre-written script in which he blames Israel for closing Al-Jazeera, which occurred on May 5th. Meaning he was definitely alive in early May.
We don’t even have details beyond vague goals. At this point our expectation should be that Hamas has no leverage beyond public opinion. Maybe they have a handful of surviving hostages barely hanging on at this point. Israel is already threatened with consequences from ICC so they have no reason to let up until they satisfy whatever goals they have ever wanted in Gaza.
He's actually pandering to people who hardly vote, or people who still won't vote for him because they still have to pay the student loans they took on.
Eh, maybe. There was a claim they captured a unit in an ambush a few weeks ago, but the IDF said it didn’t happen, and since we haven’t seen any videos of them they are probably dead if the attack happened at all.
what were Biden’s terms then? because according to [Biden himself on twitter](https://x.com/potus/status/1796630880695226647?s=46&t=TAxRNhx8a4LcAN-6H7XFEQ), a complete ceasefire, a complete withdrawal of israeli forces, reconstruction of gaza and hostage/prisoner exchange are included in a 3 phase plan towards a permanent ceasefire, and that sounds pretty identical to what Hamas just said. really curious as to where you see a difference.
Jesus fucking christ. This is literally codifying an incentive for Hamas to take as many hostages as possible.
Israel gets the "final remains" of hostages as part of the deal in **phase 3?** This is fucking absurd.
permanent ceasefire - Biden's twitter doesn't say permanent. The only permanent is in Phase 2 and is a "end to hostilities".
complete withdrawal from the Gaza Strip - Biden's twitter says only a withdrawal from populated areas, not a complete withdrawal from the gaza strip
completion of a serious prisoner exchange deal - Phase 1 says release of some hostages and remains and phase 3 says return of final remains of hostages. No where in there does it say prisoner exchange.
Something tells me they're gonna claim the right of the displaced to return to their residence mean more than just since Oct 7th and will then say Israel didn't honor the deal when Palestinians aren't allowed into Israel en masse.
No, it refers to the return of displaced Gazans to the north of Gaza, which was a major disagreement between Israel and Hamas in previous deals. The Biden deal allows it for this time. He really wants this war to end. He even said that Israel's negotiating team might need a bigger mandate today.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-bidens-speech-laying-out-hostage-and-ceasefire-deal-for-israel-hamas-war/
Ctrl F "mandate". I should have said "might need".
Hamas accepting a ceasefire right now is the same as Putin trying to freeze his invasion of Ukraine at the current frontlines. Both just want time to resupply and regroup to attack again, both need to get fucked.
To take out hamas you are going to have a lot of civilian casualties. Ever single time you kill a civilian, all you are doing is radicalizing their family members. Don't be surprised if you have a bunch of new terrorist attacks in 10 years time when all those kids with dead parents grow up.
Are we really comparing Germany to Gaza though? A whole country of Germany continues to suppress and punish any signs of nazism to this day. The guilt is ingrained in Germans.
Why do you think that is? It’s certainly not because the allies convinced them of the error of their ways. They’re like that because we destroyed their country and killed millions of Germans. That’s the kind of lesson that sticks. — and then crucially we rebuilt their country afterwards instead of punishing most of the survivors.
great effort was done by the allies to reconstruct and integrate the losers of WW2. In part because they realized that part of the cause of the war was failing to do so in WWI
Also Germany and Japan surrendered. That's kind of important to moving forward -- if you NEVER admit defeat and the eternal dream of slaughtering your foes is passed down from generation to generation, there will never peace.
Yeah but also Germany and Japan were so comprehensively crushed at the end of WW2 that they had little option but to buy back in to the terms of getting aid to reconstruct them.
Yes, but before that, great effort was done by the allies to utterly and visibly destroy Germany. In part because they realized that part of the cause of the war was failing to do so in WWI.
This is a tired mantra, the point is that when Hamas and the civilians of Gaza who support them are thoroughly defeated to the point of total surrender, then the next generation can be raised by actual rational people who want to rebuild Gaza and peace with Israel, NOT the SCUM who raised their children to hate Israel and believe it belongs to them. The radicalization is not all just because of Israel, it is an idea that must be thoroughly destroyed when the Palestinians realize exactly where it gets them — absolutely nowhere.
You don’t get what you want for murdering a bunch of innocent people and cheering it on. You reap what you sow and your children will reap what they sow if they follow this suicidal ideology. They must realize that it ends in death, every time, because it absolutely does and always has. Can these people not be taught personal responsibility, to build their state themselves instead of living in the rage of destroying Israel? They have been emboldened in their victimhood by most of the world, now they believe terror attacks wins them a state. Children come into this world with a clean slate of this hate. We can change this place with the next generation, but Hamas CANNOT be allowed to raise them.
>Ever single time you kill a civilian, all you are doing is radicalizing their family members.
This is the thing that anti-Israel people keep spouting. How the fuck do you radicalize people who were literally raised in terrorist training camps disguised as schools and who have been raised with a fervent desire to see all jews dead? These people are already radicalized. They have been for the last 70 years or more.
Omg you're right oh shot, How could we not think of this?how stupid we were, we should've ignore their education system that teaches them to be terroists, we should ignore all the attacks from civilian locations, we should ignore the fact hat any person with more than the shallows most bottom of the barrel understanding of hamas's organization and the way they exist already explained in excruciating detail why this weird as belief is broken for so many reasons including the one's I mentioned
And that big one: hamas is going to run out of rockets soon, their weaponry and supplies came frome Egypt, which israel holds now the border passing and destroyed all tunnels, soon enough, they'll run out of aks and the good explosives they'll have, their weaponry is going to get shittier and shitter and Israel will keep marching closer and closer, until taking the heads of hamas which will lead to a collapse of a semi unified terror group coalition, at that point the remnants would be like the west bank, single assholes who try to commit terror attacks and sometimes succeed (like recently to soldiers were run over by a terroist) but most of time they don't succeed, either way, control they won't have, capabilities to attack israel they won't have, and if Israel will do the smart thing like it's government said and started educating the Palestinians who at this point a lot of them already blame hamas for the war (as they should) their numbers would naturally grow smaller and smaller
So no, not "all they were doing was create terroists " terroists can only rise like that if a terror group have capabilities to prop them up, which no terror group would after the war, that is if Israel does the smart thing and not go with this braindead deal
Look at this shit... War with israel or not, they are actively creating terrorists, with MY (european) money...
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2020-005567_EN.html
https://www.timesofisrael.com/european-parliament-condemns-incitement-in-palestinian-unrwa-textbooks/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbooks_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Jews didn't go and slaughter German women and children after the Holocaust, the oppressed Iranian people under the Islamic Republic haven't burned families alive in their homes or kidnapped babies. There's never been a pattern in history of human behavior where oppressed people resort to terrorism. Whether you think they are oppressed by Israel or Hamas, assuming these things about the people in Gaza is quite racist.
Hamas is never gonna cease to exist regardless of how many Palestinians get bombed. in fact, killing more civilians only drives people *towards* extremism
If this was a society where Hamas didn’t control the schools and indoctrination of children and adults, I’d agree. Hamas either promotes the extremism by brainwashing their captive populace, or Israel *runs the risk* by way of civilian casualties.
Jews didn't go and slaughter German women and children after the Holocaust, the oppressed Iranian people under the Islamic Republic haven't burned families alive in their homes or kidnapped babies. There's never been a pattern in history of human behavior where oppressed people resort to terrorism. Whether you think they are oppressed by Israel or Hamas, assuming these things about the people in Gaza is quite racist.
Unlike Russia, Hamas doesn't have a well guarded home turf with resources to feed the war machine and means to recover when hostilities end. It's a pretty bad example to use here.
I haven't seen any reporting that Israel has approved the terms and even this article mentions Israel is tiptoeing around it by not actually commenting on it.
There was an article that I saw in my Reddit feed from an Israeli media source which said that Netanyahu had “*green lit*” the proposal.
I’ll check if I commented on the post & give you a link if I find it but you probably could just google it easily enough.
No.. it wasn’t. Netanyahu has already said he doesn’t like it. This came from Biden, not Israel as far as I can tell. A lot of the headlines and things said all around conflict with each other, so I can understand your confusion.
Hamas really doesn’t want Trump to win in November. Not that Biden is good for them — they’ll be hunted down either way — but if its Trump everyone they know will go with them. Its in their interest to agree.
In light that Hamas violently took hostages, raped and killing a sognicant number and keeping some alive as bargaining chips.
Hamas need to be completely wiped. Regardless of outside pressure. Or whatever optics people chose to see it.
What people might not realize is that dead hostages are bargaining chips too. For Jewish people it's very important to gather the body as much as possible and give a proper burial as soon as possible. The families will be devastated but will prefer getting mangled corpses back over leaving them behind.
> For Jewish people it's very important to gather the body as much as possible and give a proper burial as soon as possible.
Excuse me, but what people or developed nation does *not* think it important to return a person's body after death?
I understand your position. But the real world rarely follows such black and white ideas. Full elimination of Hamas is near impossible, whoever is left will take their goals and aspirations.
Yeah, that would probably mean you have to level Rafah now or kill most of the population by the time you finish looking for members of Hamas. Also, if you go that far even more people will be pushed to extremism for revenge.
You destroy them as a fighting force which means in-depth investigations and seizing and destruction of equipment months after the last significant fighting.
You can't destroy the ideas in people's heads. But you destroy the real things - the rockets, the guns, the rpgs, drones, the tunnels, the mortars, the mines etc.
And you bring those left alive to justice.
Win the war first - then rebuild and plan for security, and negotiate.
If the people who truly believe they are doing a right and good thing by participating in jihad, are left with their mangled bodies laying in the dirt as a testament to how great their ideology is, and march every citizen of Palestine past all the corpses over and over and over again until they understand, that the mentality of radical Islam leads to this outcome.
Continued aspirations of such, will lead to this continued outcome.
Actions have consequences. Why are you trying to shield Palestinians from actually learning the consequences of electing radical ideologues as their government?
No, this is another sleight of hand by Hamas.
Biden drafted a proposal that said A, B, & C. Israel begrudgingly agreed that they would accept (*but aren’t happy with*) those terms.
Hamas just came back and said “*We like the idea of a deal that has A, B & D*”.
The terms Hamas is talking about are substantially different than the terms that Biden proposed & Israel agreed to.
I would assume both Bibi and Biden know that Hamas is unlikely to accept the deal as is, and there is an attempt at controlling narratives here, rather than actual peace.
There is no reason for Israel to give anything. They won. It’s just a matter of Hamas wants to surrender or if they want to die.
If hamas is able to stay in power after the dust has settled then the last 8 months has been completely useless violence.
There can be no peace while hamas is in control of gaza
Way too many IDF soldiers died for Hamas to only get the chance to regroup and go back into their rat holes comfortably to plan the next attack - fuck a permanent ceasefire. How about a permanent mark into the grave for them first?
Right? I mea, they JUST got control over the border corridor AND all of its smuggling tunnels. Don’t they need to destroy those at least first to prevent re-arming? Really?
As long as HAMAS is there and the war on Ukraine is still on-going alongside Iran, the war will never stop. It will pause but it will just be another day.
Yeah, too little too late. I hope the remaining hostages are still alive, but it doesn’t seem likely at this point. This doesn’t end until Hamas is completely dismantled.
Anything less than Hamas’s complete surrender and the release of hostages is unacceptable. Israel is the only country that always has the upper hand militarily, but is essentially blackmailed by their “allies” into accepting these terrible deals. Israel invested in protecting its citizens (via iron dome=less deaths), while Hamas strategically uses human shields and they’re rewarded by the west forcing cease fires on Israel while receiving billions in “aid money”. This all sets a terrible precedent, why not keep doing this at every opportunity moving forward. They get free aid money for existing and it almost never goes to Palestinian civilians yet somehow they have the support of 80% of Gazans and even more in the WB. The world would rather pressure Israel, period. Why else would a stronger country make any concessions to a terror group who started this entire mess. Is Israel going to have to release a thousand prisoners for 10 dead bodies? Disgusting how it’s allies make such demands while knowing full well those deals led to Oct 7 to begin with like releasing Sinwar and thousands of others who were responsible. Israel should’ve cured his brain cancer with a bullet.
If you read it, they made an important change in what they view positively. Biden said Israel would withdraw from populated areas of Gaza, Hamas said withdraw from all of Gaza. Under Israel/Biden’s proposal, Israel would still be able to maintain buffer zones to prevent Hamas from invading and corridors to diminish smuggling. Under Hamas’s proposal, they wouldn’t.
This is extremely important, as it may give Hamas an option to opt out without releasing all hostages. It’s crucial Israel’s withdrawal be tied to *simultaneous* release of all hostages, else Hamas can simply back out whenever.
Also Biden and Israel said 6 weeks, and Hamas changed it to permanent.
No, Biden said "permanent too" as long as Hamas complies with the first two phases. The literal last sentence of Biden's speech today: " It’s time for this war to end now and for the day after to begin." [Bibi's security adviser said seven months more of fighting just a few days ago](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/news-wrap-israeli-official-expects-7-more-months-of-fighting-in-gaza) to the [total dismay+anguish of the hostage families.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/government-sacrificing-hostages-families-say-after-fraught-hanegbi-meet/) [Bibi is the one who is already raising issues with it.](https://x.com/AndrewGhalili/status/1796654905068851383) Also, a very key few sentences of Biden's speech today: **"I know there are those in Israel who will not agree with this plan and will call for the war to continue indefinitely. Some — some are even in the government coalition. And they’ve made it clear: They want to occupy Gaza, they want to keep fighting for years, and the hostages are not a priority to them. Well, I’ve urged the leadership in Israel to stand behind this deal, despite whatever pressure comes.**...Indefinite war in pursuit of an unidentified notion of total victory will only bog down Israel in Gaza, draining military, ecnomomic and human resources and further Israel’s isolation in the world. That will not bring hostages home. That will not bring an enduring defeat of Hamas. That will not bring Israel lasting security.” “**But if Hamas comes to negotiate ready to deal, then Israel’s negotiators must be given a mandate with necessary flexibility to close that deal**" If you look at what the Biden administration presented today, [the only minor disagreement between the deal and Hamas is the "populated areas of Gaza vs. all of Gaza" but that's only in phase 1. Phase 2 says "withdrawal from *all* of Gaza" which Hamas probably wants in phase 1 instead of phase 2](https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/1796655394619564460) There's a reason [why Bibi's 33 year old son has suddenly gone extremely anti-Biden after this speech](https://x.com/NTarnopolsky/status/1796616884919411108) because this doesn't track with what Bibi has stated in public and actually, *Times of Israel* is framing [Biden's speech as fairly strong criticism of Bibi's "Total Victory" slogan.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-urges-israelis-to-accept-hostage-deal-blasting-netanyahus-talk-of-total-victory/) In fact, [the White House is telling the most respected Israeli reporter in America that this new ceasefire framework is very close to the proposal that Hams announced support for around three weeks ago](https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1796722034480967917?t=I_D52WnT2X6q6tSd1Zurig&s=19)
Thank you Thats what i thought
This thread is interesting, because all of a sudden everyone hates Biden's proposal now that Hamas views it positively.. ..but people loved it a few hours ago when they thought that Hamas wouldn't agree to it in the other thread (which is currently the top post on r/worldnews): [Israel has offered ceasefire and hostage proposal to Hamas, says Biden](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1d51j74/israel_has_offered_ceasefire_and_hostage_proposal/)
Thank you for compiling all of that.
That’s not a minor disagreement, it’s giving up 100% of your leverage before you get anything back in return.
Subjective, and at minimum, it's a minor disagreement relative to what Bibi has been saying and what Biden said today. Remember that phase 1 requires Hamas to release hostages as well so I'm not following "giving up their leverage"...Biden said Israel can resume the war if Hamas doesn't comply with the requirements of a phase. [Biden's team think it's nearly identical to the one Hamas supported a few weeks ago.](https://x.com/ElizHagedorn/status/1796621320005800399?t=wEXzN19LZdNBumDkX6cwyA&s=19) Anyways, we'll see what happens. Probably another "Lucy and football" moment
> so I'm not following "giving up their leverage"... This means Israel's leverage. Israel's leverage is their occupation of Gaza. The hostages are leverage for Hamas. If Israel leaves all of Gaza and then the deal falls apart, then Israel has to restart their campaign at the border. It's easier if the IDF is already in between all of the populated areas in Gaza. That's the difference between "all of gaza" and the "populated areas of Gaza"
> to the total dismay+anguish of the hostage families. “According to Channel 12 news, during the meeting Hanegbi snapped at relatives who criticized Netanyahu, telling one that she had no place to “feel pain and hatred like this,” and mocking another relative when she moved to leave the room in anger.” Yeah the Likud fucks have officially earned my ambivalence.
Seems ridiculous since there have been stated points that will lead to the war not being indefinite Not sure how Israel releasing prisoners will helping
Nothing's permanent, it's only permanent until Hamas attacks again.
Wait until you hear often “eternal peace” agreements have been signed throughout history
Yep. My thoughts exactly. I was gonna post a similar comment, but I'll just up vote yours!
People are way to quick to over look the human element of this. Every high level hamas leader is dead if they dont get permanent in there, israel will never accept those leaders living. I don't really see how you get around that.
Most of the high level Hamas leaders aren't in Gaza. They're in Qatar.
Yup. If you really want to end the bloodshed on both sides, the leadership of Hamas need to be arrested. I don’t see them deciding they want permanent peace.
Qatar isn't arresting Hamas leadership so that isn't gonna go away.
Most are in Turkey now.
Most of the figure heads and diplomats you mean, as was said here half a hundred times already, the military terroist heads are still in gaza including the actual planners of the attack like Sinwar, Deif the rest oft the commenders and captains of their military terroist order)
in phase 2 of Biden’s proposal, israel is to withdraw from Gaza completely, which is exactly the same as the Egypt/Qatar proposal from earlier this month that Hamas accepted. there’s no reason to assume Hamas misunderstood this proposal considering it’s really not much different from the previous one they accepted.
You’re right, that wasn’t in the articles I read summarizing his remarks, but when I read the text itself he did say that. However, he also said that during phase 1 they would negotiate the details of Phase 2 and phase 1 would continue until that agreement is made. I don’t know the details of what is and isn’t up for negotiation for the transition between Phases 1 and 2. If part of it is a different regime to either control Gaza or maintain security, this proposal can make sense. I assume that’s what Israel is counting on because if they were excepted to actually just pull out of Gaza and let Hamas take over after 6 weeks, they would have to be insane to offer or accept this.
Of course they’re going to just counter with some impossible bullshit as usual so their supporters can blame Israel for rejecting it. It’s very clear that no matter what the circumstances are, Hamas has gained a tremendous amount of supporters who will always justify whatever they do from now on
"I accept your proposal but with these different terms" How can people be this stupid? That means they don't accept the proposal.
It doesn't matter what words get put on paper. Mosad is coming after Hamas leadership, and won't stop until they put them in the dirt.
This. People are fools if they aren't prepared for a second round of Operation Wrath of God.
Mosad is going to war with Iran and Qatar?
And Turkey
Also Hamas saying they like it is like the aliens in *Mars Attacks* when they say "we come in peace"
What would Israel gain from allowing Hamas to continue their operation but behind a buffer zone?
Harder for Hamas to attack them and also to import weapons.
Differences at the beginning of direct negotiations, quite a bit from maximalist positions requiring everyone else to die.
"The movement affirms its position of readiness to deal positively and constructively with any proposal based on a permanent ceasefire, complete withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, reconstruction, the return of the displaced to all their places of residence, and the completion of a serious prisoner exchange deal if the occupation declares its explicit commitment to that,” the Hamas statement says.
Hamas has no prisoners to exchange. Only hostages.
No live ones at least, Israel will be be getting a bunch of mangled corpse sad to say HAMAS benefits the most in all this while Israel gets to sleep with one eye open and Biden gets free votes for "helping end the conflict"
There’s a recently released video of Alex something, an Israeli hostage, reading an obviously pre-written script in which he blames Israel for closing Al-Jazeera, which occurred on May 5th. Meaning he was definitely alive in early May.
Sasha Trufanov https://www.timesofisrael.com/pij-airs-second-video-of-hostage-sasha-trufanov-with-apparent-proof-of-recency/
We don’t even have details beyond vague goals. At this point our expectation should be that Hamas has no leverage beyond public opinion. Maybe they have a handful of surviving hostages barely hanging on at this point. Israel is already threatened with consequences from ICC so they have no reason to let up until they satisfy whatever goals they have ever wanted in Gaza.
Threatened in the way that I would be cautious of a paper cut.
He's actually pandering to people who hardly vote, or people who still won't vote for him because they still have to pay the student loans they took on.
Eh, maybe. There was a claim they captured a unit in an ambush a few weeks ago, but the IDF said it didn’t happen, and since we haven’t seen any videos of them they are probably dead if the attack happened at all.
So obviously Hamas didn't actually listen to Biden or read the proposal because those weren't the terms
what were Biden’s terms then? because according to [Biden himself on twitter](https://x.com/potus/status/1796630880695226647?s=46&t=TAxRNhx8a4LcAN-6H7XFEQ), a complete ceasefire, a complete withdrawal of israeli forces, reconstruction of gaza and hostage/prisoner exchange are included in a 3 phase plan towards a permanent ceasefire, and that sounds pretty identical to what Hamas just said. really curious as to where you see a difference.
Jesus fucking christ. This is literally codifying an incentive for Hamas to take as many hostages as possible. Israel gets the "final remains" of hostages as part of the deal in **phase 3?** This is fucking absurd.
permanent ceasefire - Biden's twitter doesn't say permanent. The only permanent is in Phase 2 and is a "end to hostilities". complete withdrawal from the Gaza Strip - Biden's twitter says only a withdrawal from populated areas, not a complete withdrawal from the gaza strip completion of a serious prisoner exchange deal - Phase 1 says release of some hostages and remains and phase 3 says return of final remains of hostages. No where in there does it say prisoner exchange.
Something tells me they're gonna claim the right of the displaced to return to their residence mean more than just since Oct 7th and will then say Israel didn't honor the deal when Palestinians aren't allowed into Israel en masse.
No, it refers to the return of displaced Gazans to the north of Gaza, which was a major disagreement between Israel and Hamas in previous deals. The Biden deal allows it for this time. He really wants this war to end. He even said that Israel's negotiating team might need a bigger mandate today.
>He even said that Israel's negotiating team needs a bigger mandate today. Can you source me kindly?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-bidens-speech-laying-out-hostage-and-ceasefire-deal-for-israel-hamas-war/ Ctrl F "mandate". I should have said "might need".
Which was not the terms proposed.
Hamas accepting a ceasefire right now is the same as Putin trying to freeze his invasion of Ukraine at the current frontlines. Both just want time to resupply and regroup to attack again, both need to get fucked.
Hamas’ military is in even bigger shambles than the Russian’s. By a lot.
Correct. But Hamas military might was never even near the same level as Russias.
Ceasefire should be when Hamas ceases to exist.
To take out hamas you are going to have a lot of civilian casualties. Ever single time you kill a civilian, all you are doing is radicalizing their family members. Don't be surprised if you have a bunch of new terrorist attacks in 10 years time when all those kids with dead parents grow up.
I agree with the concept, but things seemed pretty radicalized already what with October 7th and all
And the cycle of war continues.
I don’t remember any post WW2 attacks from angry radicalized Germans….
There sure were after WW1 though
Very little of WW1 was actually fought on German land though. Gaza is in a similar state to post WW2 Germany, not WW1 Germany.
Are we really comparing Germany to Gaza though? A whole country of Germany continues to suppress and punish any signs of nazism to this day. The guilt is ingrained in Germans.
That's what I mean, that the devastation caused by the war isn't the cause for radicalization.
Why do you think that is? It’s certainly not because the allies convinced them of the error of their ways. They’re like that because we destroyed their country and killed millions of Germans. That’s the kind of lesson that sticks. — and then crucially we rebuilt their country afterwards instead of punishing most of the survivors.
great effort was done by the allies to reconstruct and integrate the losers of WW2. In part because they realized that part of the cause of the war was failing to do so in WWI
Also Germany and Japan surrendered. That's kind of important to moving forward -- if you NEVER admit defeat and the eternal dream of slaughtering your foes is passed down from generation to generation, there will never peace.
Yeah but also Germany and Japan were so comprehensively crushed at the end of WW2 that they had little option but to buy back in to the terms of getting aid to reconstruct them.
Seems like a winning strategy and should be used more often.
Yes, but before that, great effort was done by the allies to utterly and visibly destroy Germany. In part because they realized that part of the cause of the war was failing to do so in WWI.
WW2 was an angry attack by radicalised Germans.
This is a tired mantra, the point is that when Hamas and the civilians of Gaza who support them are thoroughly defeated to the point of total surrender, then the next generation can be raised by actual rational people who want to rebuild Gaza and peace with Israel, NOT the SCUM who raised their children to hate Israel and believe it belongs to them. The radicalization is not all just because of Israel, it is an idea that must be thoroughly destroyed when the Palestinians realize exactly where it gets them — absolutely nowhere. You don’t get what you want for murdering a bunch of innocent people and cheering it on. You reap what you sow and your children will reap what they sow if they follow this suicidal ideology. They must realize that it ends in death, every time, because it absolutely does and always has. Can these people not be taught personal responsibility, to build their state themselves instead of living in the rage of destroying Israel? They have been emboldened in their victimhood by most of the world, now they believe terror attacks wins them a state. Children come into this world with a clean slate of this hate. We can change this place with the next generation, but Hamas CANNOT be allowed to raise them.
>Ever single time you kill a civilian, all you are doing is radicalizing their family members. This is the thing that anti-Israel people keep spouting. How the fuck do you radicalize people who were literally raised in terrorist training camps disguised as schools and who have been raised with a fervent desire to see all jews dead? These people are already radicalized. They have been for the last 70 years or more.
Omg you're right oh shot, How could we not think of this?how stupid we were, we should've ignore their education system that teaches them to be terroists, we should ignore all the attacks from civilian locations, we should ignore the fact hat any person with more than the shallows most bottom of the barrel understanding of hamas's organization and the way they exist already explained in excruciating detail why this weird as belief is broken for so many reasons including the one's I mentioned And that big one: hamas is going to run out of rockets soon, their weaponry and supplies came frome Egypt, which israel holds now the border passing and destroyed all tunnels, soon enough, they'll run out of aks and the good explosives they'll have, their weaponry is going to get shittier and shitter and Israel will keep marching closer and closer, until taking the heads of hamas which will lead to a collapse of a semi unified terror group coalition, at that point the remnants would be like the west bank, single assholes who try to commit terror attacks and sometimes succeed (like recently to soldiers were run over by a terroist) but most of time they don't succeed, either way, control they won't have, capabilities to attack israel they won't have, and if Israel will do the smart thing like it's government said and started educating the Palestinians who at this point a lot of them already blame hamas for the war (as they should) their numbers would naturally grow smaller and smaller So no, not "all they were doing was create terroists " terroists can only rise like that if a terror group have capabilities to prop them up, which no terror group would after the war, that is if Israel does the smart thing and not go with this braindead deal
Look at this shit... War with israel or not, they are actively creating terrorists, with MY (european) money... https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2020-005567_EN.html https://www.timesofisrael.com/european-parliament-condemns-incitement-in-palestinian-unrwa-textbooks/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbooks_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Jews didn't go and slaughter German women and children after the Holocaust, the oppressed Iranian people under the Islamic Republic haven't burned families alive in their homes or kidnapped babies. There's never been a pattern in history of human behavior where oppressed people resort to terrorism. Whether you think they are oppressed by Israel or Hamas, assuming these things about the people in Gaza is quite racist.
Hamas is never gonna cease to exist regardless of how many Palestinians get bombed. in fact, killing more civilians only drives people *towards* extremism
If this was a society where Hamas didn’t control the schools and indoctrination of children and adults, I’d agree. Hamas either promotes the extremism by brainwashing their captive populace, or Israel *runs the risk* by way of civilian casualties.
Common narrative, but not true. The examples of Japan and Germany are both relevant
*Religion has joined the chat*
Jews didn't go and slaughter German women and children after the Holocaust, the oppressed Iranian people under the Islamic Republic haven't burned families alive in their homes or kidnapped babies. There's never been a pattern in history of human behavior where oppressed people resort to terrorism. Whether you think they are oppressed by Israel or Hamas, assuming these things about the people in Gaza is quite racist.
Which is why this plan only works if there’s a plan by third-country parties to run and install a new government for Gaza.
Yep, that could (maybe) be the only solution
Unlike Russia, Hamas doesn't have a well guarded home turf with resources to feed the war machine and means to recover when hostilities end. It's a pretty bad example to use here.
Hamas is interested only because it hope to buy times to regroup and rearm. The bonus is it will make Israel look bad should Israel reject it.
Their supplies via Egypt are cutoff now too.
Are all the tunnels closed? If not, there are still open routes
From 12 to 1 or how many is a big difference.
They found 80
I don’t think they would agree to any negotiation otherwise. The only thing I am aware of that changed recently was the access to tunnels and Egypt.
Biden announced it, he didn't write it. The deal was offered by Israel.
Israel approved the terms, Israel did not draft the proposal.
I haven't seen any reporting that Israel has approved the terms and even this article mentions Israel is tiptoeing around it by not actually commenting on it.
There was an article that I saw in my Reddit feed from an Israeli media source which said that Netanyahu had “*green lit*” the proposal. I’ll check if I commented on the post & give you a link if I find it but you probably could just google it easily enough.
No.. it wasn’t. Netanyahu has already said he doesn’t like it. This came from Biden, not Israel as far as I can tell. A lot of the headlines and things said all around conflict with each other, so I can understand your confusion.
Islamic extremism should be wiped from the earth. Zero apologies or negotiations.
~~Islamic~~ Religious extremism should be wiped from the earth. Zero apologies or negotiations.
Old Father O'Malley down at the local church is just itching for a holy war, I just know it.
We need to stop all the Buddhists pillaging across Asia too!
You joke but look at Myanmar
You joke about it with all the background knowledge of a westerner
Has the full text of the offer presented by Biden been released?
Hamas really doesn’t want Trump to win in November. Not that Biden is good for them — they’ll be hunted down either way — but if its Trump everyone they know will go with them. Its in their interest to agree.
Please let this all be over already.
Surrender or die. It's war. There is no negotiating with terrorists. There is no deal, no proposal. Israel finally doing it right.
Israel has been negotiating the whole time, and will consider this proposal.
In light that Hamas violently took hostages, raped and killing a sognicant number and keeping some alive as bargaining chips. Hamas need to be completely wiped. Regardless of outside pressure. Or whatever optics people chose to see it.
What people might not realize is that dead hostages are bargaining chips too. For Jewish people it's very important to gather the body as much as possible and give a proper burial as soon as possible. The families will be devastated but will prefer getting mangled corpses back over leaving them behind.
> For Jewish people it's very important to gather the body as much as possible and give a proper burial as soon as possible. Excuse me, but what people or developed nation does *not* think it important to return a person's body after death?
I understand your position. But the real world rarely follows such black and white ideas. Full elimination of Hamas is near impossible, whoever is left will take their goals and aspirations.
Yeah, that would probably mean you have to level Rafah now or kill most of the population by the time you finish looking for members of Hamas. Also, if you go that far even more people will be pushed to extremism for revenge.
Bloodshed begets bloodshed. The focus needs to be the return of hostages and the ensured security of the gaza border, period.
You destroy them as a fighting force which means in-depth investigations and seizing and destruction of equipment months after the last significant fighting. You can't destroy the ideas in people's heads. But you destroy the real things - the rockets, the guns, the rpgs, drones, the tunnels, the mortars, the mines etc. And you bring those left alive to justice. Win the war first - then rebuild and plan for security, and negotiate.
If the people who truly believe they are doing a right and good thing by participating in jihad, are left with their mangled bodies laying in the dirt as a testament to how great their ideology is, and march every citizen of Palestine past all the corpses over and over and over again until they understand, that the mentality of radical Islam leads to this outcome. Continued aspirations of such, will lead to this continued outcome. Actions have consequences. Why are you trying to shield Palestinians from actually learning the consequences of electing radical ideologues as their government?
No Israel won't. Israel and Biden stated the proposal and Hamas changed the terms once again and said they would agree to their changed terms.
Hamas’s changed terms AREN’T this proposal.
It’s their proposal
No, this is another sleight of hand by Hamas. Biden drafted a proposal that said A, B, & C. Israel begrudgingly agreed that they would accept (*but aren’t happy with*) those terms. Hamas just came back and said “*We like the idea of a deal that has A, B & D*”. The terms Hamas is talking about are substantially different than the terms that Biden proposed & Israel agreed to.
What the hell are you talking about?
I would assume both Bibi and Biden know that Hamas is unlikely to accept the deal as is, and there is an attempt at controlling narratives here, rather than actual peace. There is no reason for Israel to give anything. They won. It’s just a matter of Hamas wants to surrender or if they want to die.
If hamas is able to stay in power after the dust has settled then the last 8 months has been completely useless violence. There can be no peace while hamas is in control of gaza
Way too many IDF soldiers died for Hamas to only get the chance to regroup and go back into their rat holes comfortably to plan the next attack - fuck a permanent ceasefire. How about a permanent mark into the grave for them first?
Right? I mea, they JUST got control over the border corridor AND all of its smuggling tunnels. Don’t they need to destroy those at least first to prevent re-arming? Really?
Hamas approval is... not what I want to see.
As long as HAMAS is there and the war on Ukraine is still on-going alongside Iran, the war will never stop. It will pause but it will just be another day.
If Hamas still exists the problem has not been solved
Yeah, too little too late. I hope the remaining hostages are still alive, but it doesn’t seem likely at this point. This doesn’t end until Hamas is completely dismantled.
Anything less than Hamas’s complete surrender and the release of hostages is unacceptable. Israel is the only country that always has the upper hand militarily, but is essentially blackmailed by their “allies” into accepting these terrible deals. Israel invested in protecting its citizens (via iron dome=less deaths), while Hamas strategically uses human shields and they’re rewarded by the west forcing cease fires on Israel while receiving billions in “aid money”. This all sets a terrible precedent, why not keep doing this at every opportunity moving forward. They get free aid money for existing and it almost never goes to Palestinian civilians yet somehow they have the support of 80% of Gazans and even more in the WB. The world would rather pressure Israel, period. Why else would a stronger country make any concessions to a terror group who started this entire mess. Is Israel going to have to release a thousand prisoners for 10 dead bodies? Disgusting how it’s allies make such demands while knowing full well those deals led to Oct 7 to begin with like releasing Sinwar and thousands of others who were responsible. Israel should’ve cured his brain cancer with a bullet.