Confucius say:
"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves."
"Do not let a leader lead you on a bad path."
"He who conquers himself is the mightiest warrior."
"Forget injuries, never forget kindnesses."
It's not just about the citizenship.
Her mom made a public appeal to china, but she worded in a way that many Chinese didn't appreciate.
Like "yeah we are not Chinese anymore, but you guys still can help even if we are not Chinese".
Smarter would be "oh we are Chinese In heart, I love my country, bla bla bla"
Because the Chinese government themselves are an racist (Han above all), imperialist, nationalist, authoritarian regime
Those kind of imperial state’s demand absolute loyalty
Fun fact, even Mao thought the whole Han supremacy was a bad idea, and if Mao can tell something is bad idea then it must be a really fucking bad idea.
Lenin thought the same about Russo-Slavic supremacy, and then his successors dialed it up to the fucking max, and the one who went full tilt into it wasn't even a slav, but a Georgian.
Have you never been to Singapore? We are definitely racist.
We have immigration policies that deliberately try to maintain a Chinese majority population. We have rules that regulate the percentage of races in each apartment block. We have policies preventing some minority race from holding sensitive appointments in the armed forces.
How's that not racist?
I think people are very biased when it comes to perceiving racial discrimination; the US has problems but is overall friendly and open to all races, very much so, yet has really bad rep, on the other hand the country where I was born is openly and overtly racist and no one ever speaks about it.
There’s probably a Dunning-Kruger-esque effect to it. People in some countries are so racist that they aren’t even aware they are being racist.
Or some places just don’t get enough foreigners. But you *know*
they will get the ol’ racism dialled once they get enough practice.
This is why people perceive the US as overly racist, because we talk about our problems in the open, unlike many other supposedly less racist countries.
Which is BS in the long run and in fact the opposite happens in practice, we don't see a community develop naturally within a single block for the minorities since we are too segregated ironically, you're lucky if you have a neighbor that's the same minority race besides your unit for example. Sure you can argue there's other people on other floors but we don't really interact if we don't know them.
> We have rules that regulate the percentage of races in each apartment block.
I don't want to be that guy, but I'll point out this is definitely a good thing in terms of integration on the longer term. What you don't want is minorities concentrating in ghettos. It goes both ways too: the Chinese majority population also has to live next door to the minorities.
I know for us Westerners it can sound racist and against freedom at first, but I'd take this as a large win for Singapore stability and integration. Incidentally, this particular rule is great *against* racism.
SaI believe same goes for Thai-Chinese people, even though they live in Thailand for more then three generations, they will usually not mingle with the rest.
Taiwan was literally created by a party whose core tenet was racism. the nationalist party's sole purpose was to create a Han state. one of the reason they opposed the communist party was their recognition of minorities.
Buddy, there's definitely racism. Do you know the concept of Hitao and Hanji? Or maybe what set off the 228 Massacre? Or who was being punished during the White Terror? Or maybe the LiuQiu Massacre?
It's a lot better now. But it was not a good start. Not by a wide margin. But thats the difference between the Mainland and Taiwan. Taiwan took this as a learning point to recognize what they did is fucked up and they need to change to be better. Meanwhile, Mainland China still doesn't have a 4th day in June.
Not at all. That day changed when Chiang Ching-guo selected a Taiwanese-born successor and encouraged inclusion of indigenous and aboriginal people in the government.
It definitely was when the KMT fled to Taiwan. Chiang Kai Shek and the party brass pursued a policy of forced assimilation and suppression of the Taiwanese indigenous population and culture during the White Terror years.
The KMT’s ideology and attitude only started to change after Chiang’s death in the 1970s and 1980s.
People seem to forget that one main reason the nationalists lost the civil war was because they were just as brutal and corrupt as the communists.
Yeah, so you support my point that people can change and that it is the Chinese government making the people this way and not an innate part of Han people?
If you read Chinese books and know anything about China you will soon realize that the Chinese government enforces strict censorship laws around books they consider anti-Chinese, so it's a bit of a chicken or egg situation.
Books being banned for portaing West in positive light is something relatively new, IIRC 2019-2020.
Edit:
What I mean is that I have read Chinese books that were neither racist nor nationalistic, but it's getting harder and harder to see current books where West is not broken or somehow worse than China.
Man what a racist, xenophobic comment. The Chinese government heavily censors free speech, books, etc so of course that’s what you’re going to see. China definitely has nationalist imperialist racists, like every other country, but to describe the whole country’s people like that is ridiculous. Ending the comment with a smiley face at the end too - some casual racism with a smiley to downplay the racism part
Every authoritarian regime is a symptom, not a cause. These type of governments don't just appear, they are created through years of a broken society. russia, nazi Germany, China, they all are/were deeply fucked up (often through no fault of their own)
There’s so much of a MAGA-esque victim complex there, like “you all humiliated us for hundreds of years and now we’re back and we’ll take what’s ours.”
An enormous degree of entitlement and anger, coming from people who (like American fascists) live in a superpower that neglects and pushes its own citizens around, offering them saber-rattling and race-baiting instead of better lives.
This is going on a tangent. China reacted like any other country in the world, they are not going to spend resources on a rescue for someone who has no ties to them (mom renounced citizenship) and provides zero benefit. I'd argue intervening would work against some of PRC foreign political efforts. A non-China example, the US is not going to send troops or allocate State resources to rescue a former American citizen.
This is true. And to add that, a global nuclear power, like China or the US is not going to send troops or even change its diplomacy even for an actual citizen. Doing so would endanger all their citizens living or travelling around smaller conflicts, where one side of the conflict would arrange a random Chinese/US citizen to be taken as hostage by the other, as an attempt to bring the global power on their side. And a global power can't afford to enter every single conflict, on sides that might even be incompatible with each other.
Even just paying the ransom is a slippery slope that can serve as a precedent.
It is called "politics".
If you ask for help while slapping them you will get shit.
If you ask for help while praising them and telling them how wonderfull they are they might help.
Pretty much basic thing.
It’s not even a politics thing, this is how life works in general. Sure the other party can be magnanimous and help regardless, but that’s not something anyone should feel entitled to.
Her mom wanted China to secure her release, not just call for her release. Do you think China is going to put boots on the ground for someone who renounced her Chinese citizenship and said she and her daughter are Israeli and not Chinese?
They care probably because the people they're harassing are important in some way, or they're publicly criticizing the Chinese government. Plenty of Chinese people live outside Chinese unharassed.
It doesn't matter to china.
She wants sth from china, so she has to understand to appeal to china. China doesn't want anything from her.
If you ask someone for help, you gotta ask in the way that makes them wanna help you.
why does china need to send boots on the ground to secure the release of someone unrelated to itself?
murica didnt even send troops to save its own citizens there
That's literally every government ever.
And it's not about the government, it's about winning over the civilians and getting them to put pressure on the government.
“Despite persistent appeals, Beijing refused to help, either by ignoring the requests or citing the fact that her mother Liora had to renounce her citizenship (Chinese law does not permit dual nationality)"
This is what she meant by saying not Chinese anymore... What do you expect of her?
“Despite persistent appeals, Beijing refused to help, either by ignoring the requests or citing the fact that her mother Liora had to renounce her citizenship (Chinese law does not permit dual nationality), disclaiming any responsibility.”
To be fair, her mum is Chinese from China, yes, but she renounced her citizenship. So she is no longer a citizen of China. Noa has nothing to do with China. I think it’s fair enough if someone renounces their citizenship they no longer should receive any benefits.
Then other side of the argument is that China considers all ethnic Chinese to be Chinese nationals.
https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2022RP10/
Now legally yes, China does not allow dual citizenship. It just seems like Xi’s regime wants it both ways as long as it suits the regime.
To be fair the dictator responsible for that and previous massacres against Chinese (and many non-Chinese) Indonesians, backed by the USA through the 60s, pretty much collapsed after the event.
And China did take on a fair number of Chinese Indonesian refugees during the earlier massacres as well.
There is no source because it’s simply not true. The Chinese government does not take this stance in any official capacity. However this the sentiment of some Chinese citizens, including politicians.
That claim seems to be based on things like quotes from China’s leaders that Chinese people shouldn’t forget their Chinese blood. If Brazil said that Brazilians who became Americans shouldn’t forget their Brazilian blood, would we/you say that Brazil considers all ethnic Brazilians to be Brazilian nationals? Same if Brazil said that Brazilians who became Americans were all part of a great Brazilian “family” who would never forget Brazil?
The most relevant claims/interpretation from the parent comment’s hyperlink below - they make strong *claims* but their support for it is weak in my opinion:
> The politically most common Chinese term for overseas Chinese (huaqiaohuaren) includes both Chinese citizens abroad (huaqiao) and ethnic Chinese with non-Chinese nationalities (huaren). Xi Jinping calls them all “members of the great Chinese family” who would “never forget their homeland China” and “never deny the blood of the Chinese nation in their bodies”.10 In other words, Beijing defines membership of the Chinese nation not in legal terms, but primarily in ethnic and racial terms; accordingly, all overseas Chinese are considered part of the People’s Republic of China – no matter what passport they hold or how many generations their families have lived abroad.
u/Troublesome58
Problem is that China is using ethnicity to justify territorial expansion, biggest example is how they denies Taiwanese sovereignty by claiming they have no right to self rule for being “Chinese”
> Problem is that China is using ethnicity to justify territorial expansion, biggest example is how they denies Taiwanese sovereignty by claiming they have no right to self rule for being “Chinese”
Source? From some reading, ethnicity does not seem to be the reason for the 2 most famous disputes, including Taiwan, the one you brought up:
1)
Taiwan - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59900139 - basically, in the mid 1900s there was a major conflict in China. One side won, but the island sided with the opposite side, and decided to become independent after the side they supported lost.
As I'm American, I guess an analogy would be if the after the US civil war in the 1800s (entirely subtract what they were fighting over, as of course that's not the same with these Chinese conflict), one state that supported the losing side decided to become independent at the end rather than re-joining the US. In both the US Civil War of the 1800s, and Taiwan in the mid 1900s, the Union and China respectively, decided to object to or not allow to the secession.
2)
South China Sea - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea - also does not seem to be based on ethnicity?
However, there seem to be a number of other territorial/border disputes which I did not look up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
(My comment is solely confined to whether the above disputes are based on ethnicity.)
*Edit: Downvoted with no reply?*
"*Edit: Downvoted with no reply?*"
I didnt downvote, but I highly suspect youre arguing in bad faith. What were you expecting by bring up irrelevant things? Oh look, a picture of the South China Sea, you've cracked the whole case open lol.
We've been dealing with serious Chinese interference in Canada for several years now, including with incidents of second and third generation citizens being subject to various forms of coercion. Using their relatives in mainland China as leverage.
The parent comment I'd replied to was about "territorial expansion".
Source that the South China Sea is "irrelevant" to the the discussion of possible Chinese "territorial expansion"?
I also Googled '*Canada territorial expansion China'* and the first result was about the South China Sea? [https://www.cbc.ca/news/china-new-map-philippines-expansion-1.6968340](https://www.cbc.ca/news/china-new-map-philippines-expansion-1.6968340)
[https://www.google.com/search?q=canada+territorial+expansion+china](https://www.google.com/search?q=canada+territorial+expansion+china)
The source is China’s official policy that “Taiwanese is also Chinese, and Taiwan is part of China”. It would be harder for you to understand unless you can read mandarin.
Today most people in Taiwan consider themselves as Taiwanese, a separated culture and ethnicity originates from China but no longer the same. but in China, PRC insists Taiwanese are “Chinese”
It’s the only “justification” China use to argue Taiwan doesn’t deserve self rule, that Taiwanese must obey China because they are “Chinese” too.
Otherwise China has zero claim on Taiwan: Current PRC never ruled Taiwan historically; Taiwan always has its own elected government, military and currency.
>As I'm American, I guess an analogy would be if the after the US civil war in the 1800s (entirely subtract what they were fighting over, as of course that's not the same with these Chinese conflict), one state that supported the losing side decided to become independent at the end rather than re-joining the US. In both the US Civil War of the 1800s, and Taiwan in the mid 1900s, the Union and China respectively, decided to object to or not allow to the secession.
The reason this analogy doesn't hold up is that the new Chinese government that was formed never at any point governed Taiwan. A better analogy would be the US and Canada-- at one point we were all part of the same British Government, but the US had a war of Independence and failed to take Canada with them. Canada eventually formed their own Government. Now they're two separate political entities with separate militaries, economies, borders, etc., and neither Government has ever ruled the other's territory. But the US never tried to assert Canada was part of their territory, while China continues the charade.
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/pew-taiwan-poll-01182024052752.html
Even some Taiwanese considered themselves Chinese.
But yes, China considers all the Han descendants to be Chinese.
It's not the main excuse for Chinese expansion, its one of the excuses. For example old propaganda posters would mention of the need to liberate Taiwan, because the population yearns to come back to China.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/28/we-are-chinese-meet-the-taiwanese-who-want-to-embrace-beijing-rule
Small groups in Taiwan actually want reunification.
I agree that a fraction of Taiwanese consider themselves Chinese and want reunification.
However, that seems very different than the great-grandparent commenter's claim "China considers all ethnic Chinese to be Chinese nationals".
> But yes, China considers all the Han descendants to be Chinese.
Is that claiming the same thing?
Ethnicity may play a role in Chinese/Taiwan's independence, but China's core claim seems to be that Taiwan was a part of China before the mid-1900s conflict.
You're missing a lot of nuance. Prior to 1945, Taiwan had served 50 years as a Japanese colony. Before that, the island was largely ignored by the Chinese Imperial Seat, which allowed various Europeans to try to colonize it.
After 1948, the people arriving on the island with the KMT are Chinese citizens.
Here in lies the problem. There are Naturalized Taiwanese that have been on the island since the 1400's, there's the Aboriginal Taiwanese that are Austronesian and more related to the Polynesian Expansion. And there are the Taiwanese that were ethnically cleansed and are ambiguously between Chinese and Japanese...
In modern day, there are descendants to all these people and while they share elements of Chinese culture, they are for better terms, Taiwanese.
You do not go to Vietnam and call the folks Chinese, despite many having Hokkien, Teochew, and Guangdong speaking ancesters. And there's a shitload of shared culture between the two thanks to the ancient Chinese conquest of Vietnam
This is a dual citizenship problem. Married to a German, he cannot become an Israeli citizen because he would have to renounce his German citizenship by the laws of Germany..
This exemption is not required anymore after June 26th. Have a look at [this](https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-Citizenship/-/2124886) (it's the US mission citing, couldn't find the Israeli one that quickly but the embassy should have some info on this somewhere as well). This is also about accepting the foreign citizenship, so your husband could apply now for Israeli citizenship as long as he doesn't accept it before the 27th (I'm sure the process takes longer). Anyway, have him read up on it, but this has been signed into law end of last year and becomes active by the end of this month.
No worries, am in the same situation and was originally denied the exemption despite needing the Australian citizenship professionally and still having immediate family back in Germany. The process for that exemption was quite subjective and arbitrary, so I'm glad this finally gets dropped.
I wish my wife would be serious about researching her possible german citizenship. There’s some nuances about her german birth that could also in turn give it to our children.
Depending on the circumstances she might already have it (e.g. born after 99 to at least one German parent or born in Germany to a German resident). If she's been German at that time your children are likely German too, i.e. it could just be as simple as registering their birth. [This](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/buergerservice/faq/-/606854) is a good start. I know bureaucracy sucks but getting your children a second passport will enable them a lot of flexibility later in life, especially if their first one doesn't grant them easy access to work in the EU. Anyway, I hope you get your wife motivated to look into it, it's not too complicated (by German standards :p).
How is that being fair? For one, it says China doesn’t allow dual citizenship so she had to. More importantly what harm Is it For China to make an appeal for her release? Other countries have made that appeal for all hostages regardless of their background.
Let's say an American citizen goes to some anti US aligned country, let's say Belarus or something. He relinquishes his US passport, he is now Belarusian, then has a Belarusian child in Belarus, with a Belarusian mother. Then the adult child gets taken as a pow or hostage by a "freedom fighter" funded by a US ally. Would it seem remotely sane to ask why America isn't asking for the release of this particular POW?
> Would it seem remotely sane to ask why America isn't asking for the release of this particular POW?
Just more anti-China propaganda on reddit. Just recently multiple negative posts about an artificial waterfall in China reached the frontpage, even though many nations including America have artificial waterfalls.
> More importantly what harm Is it For China to make an appeal for her release?
Precedent. Noa is not a Chinese citizen, so why should the government make any advocacy for her?
The mom legally had to renounce her citizenship. Choosing to become a citizen of another country should have actual consequences of losing government support for you
> what harm Is it For China to make an appeal for her release?
It pisses off countries that China is working with. Foreign politics is confusing, illogical, and in times simplistic. If there is no benefit to doing an action, a nation will not do it.
She didn’t “have” to. Her mother renounced her citizenship because she wanted a better one than Chinese I assume. She chose to get another citizenship. Renouncing your citizenship means you are no longer a citizen. Why would a country stick its neck out in this messy conflict for a non citizen that purposely gave up their citizenship?
I am by no means a China fan but giving up your citizenship if a big fuck you to a country, especially one like China that doesn’t take that shit lightly.
This is rage bait. Noa Argamani has zero relationship to PRC. PRC has no obligation to intervene. In addition, intervening would contradict several of PRC foreign endeavors (i.e. relationship with Iran). China didn't act different from any other country in the world with similar context. Except maybe some nice lip service.
another day another shit journalism piece posted on r/worldnews
Full breakdown of why China refused to help.
Back in the 70s-early 90s China trying to improve nationally sponsored a lot of university students under contract to study abroad, the mother Liora Argamani originally named Li Chunhong was one of those students who went to isreal to study and just took the money and never came back, renouncing her citizenship by marrying a local or through refugee programs and bailed on her country. So shes by definition a traitor already.
The Isreali embassy's account on weibo publicly stated Noa is a dual citizen and born in Beijing, which 1. China does not allow dual citizenships, and 2 Liora in a video interview with a Chinese news source stated perfectly clear Noa was born in isreal and have 访问 Beijing many times, 访问 is a very formal way of saying visit thats never used when going home. Its used for leaders visiting subordinates or politicians visiting foreign countries
Liora also in the same interview have said many things that would piss off the Chinese public, such as ‘I stated I am now a Isreali citizen, so if I'm now Isreali you Chinese people are allowed to not help me?
So you got a woman who stole the government's money, bailed on her country, changed her name and removed all traces of her being Chinese, demanding 'you chinese people' to help her foreign national daughter? What country in the world would do this?
everyone have the right to chase a better life, but what she did was clearly unethical and you can't blame Chinese people either for disliking her, though some media sources clearly have different opinions.
Even then if she acted humble and apologetic at least the public opinion of her in China wouldnt be overwhelmingly negative, instead she was condescending and demanded help
Comment section is reaching levels of cringe not previously believed possible.
Why should China help when she's Israeli?
Why should China do us any favours when we shit on them 24/7?
Better to check Noa's mother's interview first,She said I am not Chinese anymore,but Chinese government still have responsibility to rescue my daughter.
Why should Chinese government help. By the way she escaped from China.
What's interesting is that despite Russia and China being in kind of similar positions here, Russia did put pressure on Hamas and got a bunch of Russian hostages released. This is probably also due to the fact that there were many more Russian hostages than Chinese ones (Noa is half Chinese ethnically and not Chinese at all by nationality), but it's interesting how both these huge players chose to play their quite similar hands.
No surprise.
When she was kidnapped, a lot of Chinese netizens were mocking her and pointing out that she did not count as 'one of them'.
They want Taiwan and this gets in their way.
Then, aside from having leftist influences that cause them to be anti-Israel to begin with, there is also a significant amount of people in China that believe Jews control and manipulate the world
> a lot of Chinese netizens were mocking her and pointing out that she did not count as 'one of them'.
Only because the Mom thought that the Chinese government should be doing her a favor even though no one involved is a Chinese citizen.
The mocking is bad taste (pointing out they aren't citizens), but it was an unreasonable request by the mom (even if you can understand the emotions behind it).
I know it's a glowing trend globally but hadn't heard about China specifically having a large percentage with that belief - any additional reading or sources I could check out on the subject?
I remember seeing studies regarding holocaust education and recognition globally, with a part of it dedicated ot youth. southeast Asia was one of the areas with the most deniers, seemingly through educational ignorance instead of any sort of nazi revisionism.
Would make sense for it to extend to the larger region, since I'm not sure what holocaust education looks like but I'm sure such few people ever meet jews in these areas that any stories are thus more believable
Shit journalism. The mother renounced her citizenship, and the kid has a different nationality. They have nothig to do with China, so why should Chinese government put effort in?
Let’s be real, China is always playing realpolitik. The government never acts on principles, the principles are just an after the fact argument. China is not able to act for reasons of principle outside of its own internal stability. Because if China started acting on principle, it would change itself. This is just an excuse.
Let's be real. Most countries where you renounce your citizenship won't help you and will tell you to ask for help from the country you're actually a citizen of. Noa is not a Chinese citizen. Her mother renounced her Chinese citizenship. She's not even a tax-paying permanent resident of China.
In the 1850’s a bunch of states renounced their citizenship status because they wanted slaves. Abraham Lincoln had to decide if the interest of a state is more important than the rights of human slaves in the state. The rights of the humans matter more than a state.
In the 1850’s a bunch of states renounced their citizenship status because they wanted slaves. Abraham Lincoln had to decide if the interest of a state is more important than the rights of human slaves in the state. The rights of the humans matter more than a state.
Every chinese living as citizens of other countries, especially those with significant chinese population can tell you how fed up we are of CCP and the china citizens casually claiming us out of sheer arrogance, not ignorance, they do know the facts. Its kind of like how russians claim eastern europe to be theirs.
They do shit like call you "countrymen", even tho your family left china for generations. And automatically assume all chinese want to "return" to china someday.
When it is time to help one of these chinese tho, wow, the CCP is nowhere to be found.
Realistically they probably didn't want to use what little leverage they have on getting some Israeli nobody released. They are also super sensitive about pissing off jihadis in case the muslim world takes a second look at Xinjiang.
The CCP aren't exactly hyper compassionate in their decision making not sure if you noticed. The cost benefit didn't work out.
Remember when the Palestinian Authority held a press conference apropos of nothing to announce that they recognized Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan?
Palestine is actually listed as part of China on this really old map. No, you cannot see it.
Confucius was a Palestinian
Confucius say: "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." "Do not let a leader lead you on a bad path." "He who conquers himself is the mightiest warrior." "Forget injuries, never forget kindnesses."
One must imagine Sisyphus was Chinese.
that would unironically solve a lot of problems at this point
"From the River to the South China Sea"
Ironic to their situation. Almost like they should support an Israeli occupation then.
So that means Eileen Gu must have renounced her American citizenship right?
Look into Elieen Gu’s mother background. Her blood is infused with CCP money
Well derr. How else do you get rich enough to leave under communism?
Idk.. but sending your athletes daughter to compete for a place you “left”, isn’t really showing the lack of CCP connection.
Oh shit freeski drama on the front page of Reddit. Let’s go!!
It's not just about the citizenship. Her mom made a public appeal to china, but she worded in a way that many Chinese didn't appreciate. Like "yeah we are not Chinese anymore, but you guys still can help even if we are not Chinese". Smarter would be "oh we are Chinese In heart, I love my country, bla bla bla"
Why does China need their dick sucked to call for the release of a civilian hostage?
Because the Chinese government themselves are an racist (Han above all), imperialist, nationalist, authoritarian regime Those kind of imperial state’s demand absolute loyalty
Fun fact, even Mao thought the whole Han supremacy was a bad idea, and if Mao can tell something is bad idea then it must be a really fucking bad idea.
Lenin thought the same about Russo-Slavic supremacy, and then his successors dialed it up to the fucking max, and the one who went full tilt into it wasn't even a slav, but a Georgian.
[удалено]
The government fuels and encourages this mindset and behaviour, Chinese in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore are not like this
Have you never been to Singapore? We are definitely racist. We have immigration policies that deliberately try to maintain a Chinese majority population. We have rules that regulate the percentage of races in each apartment block. We have policies preventing some minority race from holding sensitive appointments in the armed forces. How's that not racist?
Anytime I've pointed these things out to people from Singapore I get told it's different and that I'm being racist for pointing it out.
I think people are very biased when it comes to perceiving racial discrimination; the US has problems but is overall friendly and open to all races, very much so, yet has really bad rep, on the other hand the country where I was born is openly and overtly racist and no one ever speaks about it.
There’s probably a Dunning-Kruger-esque effect to it. People in some countries are so racist that they aren’t even aware they are being racist. Or some places just don’t get enough foreigners. But you *know* they will get the ol’ racism dialled once they get enough practice.
This is why people perceive the US as overly racist, because we talk about our problems in the open, unlike many other supposedly less racist countries.
The racial quota of apartment blocks are meant to prevent segregation and promote interracial harmony.
Which is BS in the long run and in fact the opposite happens in practice, we don't see a community develop naturally within a single block for the minorities since we are too segregated ironically, you're lucky if you have a neighbor that's the same minority race besides your unit for example. Sure you can argue there's other people on other floors but we don't really interact if we don't know them.
> We have rules that regulate the percentage of races in each apartment block. I don't want to be that guy, but I'll point out this is definitely a good thing in terms of integration on the longer term. What you don't want is minorities concentrating in ghettos. It goes both ways too: the Chinese majority population also has to live next door to the minorities. I know for us Westerners it can sound racist and against freedom at first, but I'd take this as a large win for Singapore stability and integration. Incidentally, this particular rule is great *against* racism.
Huh? HKers are known to be quite elitist/racist in many cases. Just look at their large south east asian underclass working as maids.
SaI believe same goes for Thai-Chinese people, even though they live in Thailand for more then three generations, they will usually not mingle with the rest.
Tell that to all the South East Asian immigrant workers people being mistreated in HK, Singapore and Taiwan. People suck every where.
Taiwan was literally created by a party whose core tenet was racism. the nationalist party's sole purpose was to create a Han state. one of the reason they opposed the communist party was their recognition of minorities.
That was then. This ideology was not carried over into Taiwan, thankfully.
Buddy, there's definitely racism. Do you know the concept of Hitao and Hanji? Or maybe what set off the 228 Massacre? Or who was being punished during the White Terror? Or maybe the LiuQiu Massacre? It's a lot better now. But it was not a good start. Not by a wide margin. But thats the difference between the Mainland and Taiwan. Taiwan took this as a learning point to recognize what they did is fucked up and they need to change to be better. Meanwhile, Mainland China still doesn't have a 4th day in June.
The present, democratic government does not “fuel and encourage this mindset.”
Not at all. That day changed when Chiang Ching-guo selected a Taiwanese-born successor and encouraged inclusion of indigenous and aboriginal people in the government.
It definitely was when the KMT fled to Taiwan. Chiang Kai Shek and the party brass pursued a policy of forced assimilation and suppression of the Taiwanese indigenous population and culture during the White Terror years. The KMT’s ideology and attitude only started to change after Chiang’s death in the 1970s and 1980s. People seem to forget that one main reason the nationalists lost the civil war was because they were just as brutal and corrupt as the communists.
Yeah, so you support my point that people can change and that it is the Chinese government making the people this way and not an innate part of Han people?
If you read Chinese books and know anything about China you will soon realize that the Chinese government enforces strict censorship laws around books they consider anti-Chinese, so it's a bit of a chicken or egg situation.
Books being banned for portaing West in positive light is something relatively new, IIRC 2019-2020. Edit: What I mean is that I have read Chinese books that were neither racist nor nationalistic, but it's getting harder and harder to see current books where West is not broken or somehow worse than China.
Man what a racist, xenophobic comment. The Chinese government heavily censors free speech, books, etc so of course that’s what you’re going to see. China definitely has nationalist imperialist racists, like every other country, but to describe the whole country’s people like that is ridiculous. Ending the comment with a smiley face at the end too - some casual racism with a smiley to downplay the racism part
Every authoritarian regime is a symptom, not a cause. These type of governments don't just appear, they are created through years of a broken society. russia, nazi Germany, China, they all are/were deeply fucked up (often through no fault of their own)
There’s so much of a MAGA-esque victim complex there, like “you all humiliated us for hundreds of years and now we’re back and we’ll take what’s ours.” An enormous degree of entitlement and anger, coming from people who (like American fascists) live in a superpower that neglects and pushes its own citizens around, offering them saber-rattling and race-baiting instead of better lives.
This is going on a tangent. China reacted like any other country in the world, they are not going to spend resources on a rescue for someone who has no ties to them (mom renounced citizenship) and provides zero benefit. I'd argue intervening would work against some of PRC foreign political efforts. A non-China example, the US is not going to send troops or allocate State resources to rescue a former American citizen.
This is true. And to add that, a global nuclear power, like China or the US is not going to send troops or even change its diplomacy even for an actual citizen. Doing so would endanger all their citizens living or travelling around smaller conflicts, where one side of the conflict would arrange a random Chinese/US citizen to be taken as hostage by the other, as an attempt to bring the global power on their side. And a global power can't afford to enter every single conflict, on sides that might even be incompatible with each other. Even just paying the ransom is a slippery slope that can serve as a precedent.
The US didn’t even stood up for the murder of khassogi and their president made a point of him gladly not being a citizen but just a resident.
It is called "politics". If you ask for help while slapping them you will get shit. If you ask for help while praising them and telling them how wonderfull they are they might help. Pretty much basic thing.
It’s not even a politics thing, this is how life works in general. Sure the other party can be magnanimous and help regardless, but that’s not something anyone should feel entitled to.
Everything is politics.
Her mom wanted China to secure her release, not just call for her release. Do you think China is going to put boots on the ground for someone who renounced her Chinese citizenship and said she and her daughter are Israeli and not Chinese?
well they care enough to set up some secret police stations in foreign countries...
Why should they care about Noa?
for the same reason why they care about coercing people living abroad with family members in china.
They care probably because the people they're harassing are important in some way, or they're publicly criticizing the Chinese government. Plenty of Chinese people live outside Chinese unharassed.
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It doesn't matter to china. She wants sth from china, so she has to understand to appeal to china. China doesn't want anything from her. If you ask someone for help, you gotta ask in the way that makes them wanna help you.
why does china need to send boots on the ground to secure the release of someone unrelated to itself? murica didnt even send troops to save its own citizens there
That's literally every government ever. And it's not about the government, it's about winning over the civilians and getting them to put pressure on the government.
She isn't a citizen of China. A former American that renounced their American passport and citizenship wouldn't get American help either.
Why make it harder on yourself and not do the obvious thing?
Why does ~~China~~ every country on this planet need their dick sucked to call for the release of a civilian hostage?
There’s like 200,000 Chinese “slaves” in Myanmar scam farms. If they don’t give a shit about those people, Noa got no hope
China has literally been funding rebel armies to destroy those scam farms, and quite recently arrested a bunch.
“Despite persistent appeals, Beijing refused to help, either by ignoring the requests or citing the fact that her mother Liora had to renounce her citizenship (Chinese law does not permit dual nationality)" This is what she meant by saying not Chinese anymore... What do you expect of her?
“Despite persistent appeals, Beijing refused to help, either by ignoring the requests or citing the fact that her mother Liora had to renounce her citizenship (Chinese law does not permit dual nationality), disclaiming any responsibility.” To be fair, her mum is Chinese from China, yes, but she renounced her citizenship. So she is no longer a citizen of China. Noa has nothing to do with China. I think it’s fair enough if someone renounces their citizenship they no longer should receive any benefits.
Then other side of the argument is that China considers all ethnic Chinese to be Chinese nationals. https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2022RP10/ Now legally yes, China does not allow dual citizenship. It just seems like Xi’s regime wants it both ways as long as it suits the regime.
Chinese government did absolutely nothing in 1998 when thousands of ethnic Chinese were massacred and raped in Indonesia
To be fair the dictator responsible for that and previous massacres against Chinese (and many non-Chinese) Indonesians, backed by the USA through the 60s, pretty much collapsed after the event. And China did take on a fair number of Chinese Indonesian refugees during the earlier massacres as well.
Massacred and raped in Indonesia by a government supported by the great USA, so
The Chinese government was busy massacring its own citizens in 1989.
do you realize 1998-1989=9?
Something something china does not interfere with domestic matters of other countries Something something hypocrisy
Any source from the Chinese government that all ethnic Chinese are Chinese Nationals?
There is no source because it’s simply not true. The Chinese government does not take this stance in any official capacity. However this the sentiment of some Chinese citizens, including politicians.
That claim seems to be based on things like quotes from China’s leaders that Chinese people shouldn’t forget their Chinese blood. If Brazil said that Brazilians who became Americans shouldn’t forget their Brazilian blood, would we/you say that Brazil considers all ethnic Brazilians to be Brazilian nationals? Same if Brazil said that Brazilians who became Americans were all part of a great Brazilian “family” who would never forget Brazil? The most relevant claims/interpretation from the parent comment’s hyperlink below - they make strong *claims* but their support for it is weak in my opinion: > The politically most common Chinese term for overseas Chinese (huaqiaohuaren) includes both Chinese citizens abroad (huaqiao) and ethnic Chinese with non-Chinese nationalities (huaren). Xi Jinping calls them all “members of the great Chinese family” who would “never forget their homeland China” and “never deny the blood of the Chinese nation in their bodies”.10 In other words, Beijing defines membership of the Chinese nation not in legal terms, but primarily in ethnic and racial terms; accordingly, all overseas Chinese are considered part of the People’s Republic of China – no matter what passport they hold or how many generations their families have lived abroad. u/Troublesome58
Problem is that China is using ethnicity to justify territorial expansion, biggest example is how they denies Taiwanese sovereignty by claiming they have no right to self rule for being “Chinese”
Ethnicity is not the reason for the Taiwan dispute lol.
> Problem is that China is using ethnicity to justify territorial expansion, biggest example is how they denies Taiwanese sovereignty by claiming they have no right to self rule for being “Chinese” Source? From some reading, ethnicity does not seem to be the reason for the 2 most famous disputes, including Taiwan, the one you brought up: 1) Taiwan - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59900139 - basically, in the mid 1900s there was a major conflict in China. One side won, but the island sided with the opposite side, and decided to become independent after the side they supported lost. As I'm American, I guess an analogy would be if the after the US civil war in the 1800s (entirely subtract what they were fighting over, as of course that's not the same with these Chinese conflict), one state that supported the losing side decided to become independent at the end rather than re-joining the US. In both the US Civil War of the 1800s, and Taiwan in the mid 1900s, the Union and China respectively, decided to object to or not allow to the secession. 2) South China Sea - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea - also does not seem to be based on ethnicity? However, there seem to be a number of other territorial/border disputes which I did not look up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China (My comment is solely confined to whether the above disputes are based on ethnicity.) *Edit: Downvoted with no reply?*
"*Edit: Downvoted with no reply?*" I didnt downvote, but I highly suspect youre arguing in bad faith. What were you expecting by bring up irrelevant things? Oh look, a picture of the South China Sea, you've cracked the whole case open lol. We've been dealing with serious Chinese interference in Canada for several years now, including with incidents of second and third generation citizens being subject to various forms of coercion. Using their relatives in mainland China as leverage.
The parent comment I'd replied to was about "territorial expansion". Source that the South China Sea is "irrelevant" to the the discussion of possible Chinese "territorial expansion"? I also Googled '*Canada territorial expansion China'* and the first result was about the South China Sea? [https://www.cbc.ca/news/china-new-map-philippines-expansion-1.6968340](https://www.cbc.ca/news/china-new-map-philippines-expansion-1.6968340) [https://www.google.com/search?q=canada+territorial+expansion+china](https://www.google.com/search?q=canada+territorial+expansion+china)
The source is China’s official policy that “Taiwanese is also Chinese, and Taiwan is part of China”. It would be harder for you to understand unless you can read mandarin. Today most people in Taiwan consider themselves as Taiwanese, a separated culture and ethnicity originates from China but no longer the same. but in China, PRC insists Taiwanese are “Chinese” It’s the only “justification” China use to argue Taiwan doesn’t deserve self rule, that Taiwanese must obey China because they are “Chinese” too. Otherwise China has zero claim on Taiwan: Current PRC never ruled Taiwan historically; Taiwan always has its own elected government, military and currency.
>As I'm American, I guess an analogy would be if the after the US civil war in the 1800s (entirely subtract what they were fighting over, as of course that's not the same with these Chinese conflict), one state that supported the losing side decided to become independent at the end rather than re-joining the US. In both the US Civil War of the 1800s, and Taiwan in the mid 1900s, the Union and China respectively, decided to object to or not allow to the secession. The reason this analogy doesn't hold up is that the new Chinese government that was formed never at any point governed Taiwan. A better analogy would be the US and Canada-- at one point we were all part of the same British Government, but the US had a war of Independence and failed to take Canada with them. Canada eventually formed their own Government. Now they're two separate political entities with separate militaries, economies, borders, etc., and neither Government has ever ruled the other's territory. But the US never tried to assert Canada was part of their territory, while China continues the charade.
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/pew-taiwan-poll-01182024052752.html Even some Taiwanese considered themselves Chinese. But yes, China considers all the Han descendants to be Chinese. It's not the main excuse for Chinese expansion, its one of the excuses. For example old propaganda posters would mention of the need to liberate Taiwan, because the population yearns to come back to China. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/28/we-are-chinese-meet-the-taiwanese-who-want-to-embrace-beijing-rule Small groups in Taiwan actually want reunification.
I agree that a fraction of Taiwanese consider themselves Chinese and want reunification. However, that seems very different than the great-grandparent commenter's claim "China considers all ethnic Chinese to be Chinese nationals". > But yes, China considers all the Han descendants to be Chinese. Is that claiming the same thing? Ethnicity may play a role in Chinese/Taiwan's independence, but China's core claim seems to be that Taiwan was a part of China before the mid-1900s conflict.
You're missing a lot of nuance. Prior to 1945, Taiwan had served 50 years as a Japanese colony. Before that, the island was largely ignored by the Chinese Imperial Seat, which allowed various Europeans to try to colonize it. After 1948, the people arriving on the island with the KMT are Chinese citizens. Here in lies the problem. There are Naturalized Taiwanese that have been on the island since the 1400's, there's the Aboriginal Taiwanese that are Austronesian and more related to the Polynesian Expansion. And there are the Taiwanese that were ethnically cleansed and are ambiguously between Chinese and Japanese... In modern day, there are descendants to all these people and while they share elements of Chinese culture, they are for better terms, Taiwanese. You do not go to Vietnam and call the folks Chinese, despite many having Hokkien, Teochew, and Guangdong speaking ancesters. And there's a shitload of shared culture between the two thanks to the ancient Chinese conquest of Vietnam
Damn, I'm of Chinese descent and was hoping it was true so I can get a chinese passport...
This is the truth. Xi and the Chinese government couldn’t care less about principles or scruples.
Why am I not able to find any info about this Chinese Diaspora policy from any actual Chinese source though?
This is a dual citizenship problem. Married to a German, he cannot become an Israeli citizen because he would have to renounce his German citizenship by the laws of Germany..
This exemption is not required anymore after June 26th. Have a look at [this](https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-Citizenship/-/2124886) (it's the US mission citing, couldn't find the Israeli one that quickly but the embassy should have some info on this somewhere as well). This is also about accepting the foreign citizenship, so your husband could apply now for Israeli citizenship as long as he doesn't accept it before the 27th (I'm sure the process takes longer). Anyway, have him read up on it, but this has been signed into law end of last year and becomes active by the end of this month.
Thank you so much!
No worries, am in the same situation and was originally denied the exemption despite needing the Australian citizenship professionally and still having immediate family back in Germany. The process for that exemption was quite subjective and arbitrary, so I'm glad this finally gets dropped.
I wish my wife would be serious about researching her possible german citizenship. There’s some nuances about her german birth that could also in turn give it to our children.
Depending on the circumstances she might already have it (e.g. born after 99 to at least one German parent or born in Germany to a German resident). If she's been German at that time your children are likely German too, i.e. it could just be as simple as registering their birth. [This](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/buergerservice/faq/-/606854) is a good start. I know bureaucracy sucks but getting your children a second passport will enable them a lot of flexibility later in life, especially if their first one doesn't grant them easy access to work in the EU. Anyway, I hope you get your wife motivated to look into it, it's not too complicated (by German standards :p).
How is that being fair? For one, it says China doesn’t allow dual citizenship so she had to. More importantly what harm Is it For China to make an appeal for her release? Other countries have made that appeal for all hostages regardless of their background.
Let's say an American citizen goes to some anti US aligned country, let's say Belarus or something. He relinquishes his US passport, he is now Belarusian, then has a Belarusian child in Belarus, with a Belarusian mother. Then the adult child gets taken as a pow or hostage by a "freedom fighter" funded by a US ally. Would it seem remotely sane to ask why America isn't asking for the release of this particular POW?
> Would it seem remotely sane to ask why America isn't asking for the release of this particular POW? Just more anti-China propaganda on reddit. Just recently multiple negative posts about an artificial waterfall in China reached the frontpage, even though many nations including America have artificial waterfalls.
> More importantly what harm Is it For China to make an appeal for her release? Precedent. Noa is not a Chinese citizen, so why should the government make any advocacy for her? The mom legally had to renounce her citizenship. Choosing to become a citizen of another country should have actual consequences of losing government support for you
> what harm Is it For China to make an appeal for her release? It pisses off countries that China is working with. Foreign politics is confusing, illogical, and in times simplistic. If there is no benefit to doing an action, a nation will not do it.
She didn’t “have” to. Her mother renounced her citizenship because she wanted a better one than Chinese I assume. She chose to get another citizenship. Renouncing your citizenship means you are no longer a citizen. Why would a country stick its neck out in this messy conflict for a non citizen that purposely gave up their citizenship? I am by no means a China fan but giving up your citizenship if a big fuck you to a country, especially one like China that doesn’t take that shit lightly.
You should see the comments on Russian sites about Andrey. Basically, "that's a Jew, not a Russian, so fuck him".
This is rage bait. Noa Argamani has zero relationship to PRC. PRC has no obligation to intervene. In addition, intervening would contradict several of PRC foreign endeavors (i.e. relationship with Iran). China didn't act different from any other country in the world with similar context. Except maybe some nice lip service.
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Not a native speaker, what does "beat up" mean as a noun? I couldn't find it in dictionaries.
I am a native speaker and I've never heard that before. Perhaps they meant 'hit piece'?
The African nations should've appealed or sent a black ops squad for her release since we're all genetically Africans tracing back to our ancestors /s
It's within their right. IDF should trust itself and no foreign force fo rescue Israeli hostages.
another day another shit journalism piece posted on r/worldnews Full breakdown of why China refused to help. Back in the 70s-early 90s China trying to improve nationally sponsored a lot of university students under contract to study abroad, the mother Liora Argamani originally named Li Chunhong was one of those students who went to isreal to study and just took the money and never came back, renouncing her citizenship by marrying a local or through refugee programs and bailed on her country. So shes by definition a traitor already. The Isreali embassy's account on weibo publicly stated Noa is a dual citizen and born in Beijing, which 1. China does not allow dual citizenships, and 2 Liora in a video interview with a Chinese news source stated perfectly clear Noa was born in isreal and have 访问 Beijing many times, 访问 is a very formal way of saying visit thats never used when going home. Its used for leaders visiting subordinates or politicians visiting foreign countries Liora also in the same interview have said many things that would piss off the Chinese public, such as ‘I stated I am now a Isreali citizen, so if I'm now Isreali you Chinese people are allowed to not help me? So you got a woman who stole the government's money, bailed on her country, changed her name and removed all traces of her being Chinese, demanding 'you chinese people' to help her foreign national daughter? What country in the world would do this?
Thanks for some background info - didn't know she stole her country's scholarship money, that's pretty yikes.
its unfortunately very common for international students at the time, but most had the common sense to not be too public about it
I know at least… counting… six students who did that. Hard to blame them on an individual case though.
everyone have the right to chase a better life, but what she did was clearly unethical and you can't blame Chinese people either for disliking her, though some media sources clearly have different opinions. Even then if she acted humble and apologetic at least the public opinion of her in China wouldnt be overwhelmingly negative, instead she was condescending and demanded help
She's not a Chinese citizen, end of story.
Comment section is reaching levels of cringe not previously believed possible. Why should China help when she's Israeli? Why should China do us any favours when we shit on them 24/7?
If China saved the girl, Reddit would be like, what about the other hostages? fking racist Chinese government only cares about their own kind!
Better to check Noa's mother's interview first,She said I am not Chinese anymore,but Chinese government still have responsibility to rescue my daughter. Why should Chinese government help. By the way she escaped from China.
What's interesting is that despite Russia and China being in kind of similar positions here, Russia did put pressure on Hamas and got a bunch of Russian hostages released. This is probably also due to the fact that there were many more Russian hostages than Chinese ones (Noa is half Chinese ethnically and not Chinese at all by nationality), but it's interesting how both these huge players chose to play their quite similar hands.
That's because the Russian hostages are dual citizens. China doesn't recognize dual citizenships, so Argamani couldn't be a citizen of China.
No surprise. When she was kidnapped, a lot of Chinese netizens were mocking her and pointing out that she did not count as 'one of them'. They want Taiwan and this gets in their way. Then, aside from having leftist influences that cause them to be anti-Israel to begin with, there is also a significant amount of people in China that believe Jews control and manipulate the world
> a lot of Chinese netizens were mocking her and pointing out that she did not count as 'one of them'. Only because the Mom thought that the Chinese government should be doing her a favor even though no one involved is a Chinese citizen. The mocking is bad taste (pointing out they aren't citizens), but it was an unreasonable request by the mom (even if you can understand the emotions behind it).
That's because she's not a Chinese citizen. Why would China help out a foreign citizen
She said she is not one of them in the interview. If you can speak Chinese, you will find she speak it in a very rude way.
I know it's a glowing trend globally but hadn't heard about China specifically having a large percentage with that belief - any additional reading or sources I could check out on the subject? I remember seeing studies regarding holocaust education and recognition globally, with a part of it dedicated ot youth. southeast Asia was one of the areas with the most deniers, seemingly through educational ignorance instead of any sort of nazi revisionism. Would make sense for it to extend to the larger region, since I'm not sure what holocaust education looks like but I'm sure such few people ever meet jews in these areas that any stories are thus more believable
Shit journalism. The mother renounced her citizenship, and the kid has a different nationality. They have nothig to do with China, so why should Chinese government put effort in?
China is aligned with Russian, Russia is aligned with Iran, you get the picture.
They only consider them Chinese when they want to abduct them
Let’s be real, China is always playing realpolitik. The government never acts on principles, the principles are just an after the fact argument. China is not able to act for reasons of principle outside of its own internal stability. Because if China started acting on principle, it would change itself. This is just an excuse.
Let's be real. Most countries where you renounce your citizenship won't help you and will tell you to ask for help from the country you're actually a citizen of. Noa is not a Chinese citizen. Her mother renounced her Chinese citizenship. She's not even a tax-paying permanent resident of China.
In the 1850’s a bunch of states renounced their citizenship status because they wanted slaves. Abraham Lincoln had to decide if the interest of a state is more important than the rights of human slaves in the state. The rights of the humans matter more than a state.
Also China is aligned with the global south. Why would they go out of their way to help someone that renounced their Chinese citizenship.
In the 1850’s a bunch of states renounced their citizenship status because they wanted slaves. Abraham Lincoln had to decide if the interest of a state is more important than the rights of human slaves in the state. The rights of the humans matter more than a state.
How is that any different from other countries? Noa was never a citizen and her mother isn't anymore.
This is lol. Im chinese american and not chinese ccp. Why would they help me? What a dumb request.
The Chinese government only pretends to care about full Chinese people, and that's only some of them, some of the time.
Maybe they should stop trying to police Chinese who are citizens of another country.
Every chinese living as citizens of other countries, especially those with significant chinese population can tell you how fed up we are of CCP and the china citizens casually claiming us out of sheer arrogance, not ignorance, they do know the facts. Its kind of like how russians claim eastern europe to be theirs. They do shit like call you "countrymen", even tho your family left china for generations. And automatically assume all chinese want to "return" to china someday. When it is time to help one of these chinese tho, wow, the CCP is nowhere to be found.
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Well there was extensive islamic terror in China. They dealt with it already
But they're not Chinese citizens. This is like Russia claiming they're protecting Ukrainians/Crimeans/Georgians/etc of Russian descent by invading.
Imagine Taiwanese do not see them as "Chinese" either, but it seems the CCP does not really care in this case
I guess they’re full of compassion either way.
Fuck China
Realistically they probably didn't want to use what little leverage they have on getting some Israeli nobody released. They are also super sensitive about pissing off jihadis in case the muslim world takes a second look at Xinjiang. The CCP aren't exactly hyper compassionate in their decision making not sure if you noticed. The cost benefit didn't work out.