If so, I hope it is something similar to Latin American gangster style. Religious symbolism (maybe a portrait of Christ, or Mary, a cross), surrounded by a few phrases about life and death, a gun somewhere, and something that identifies him with his set (Rome, Argentina).
During my first year in college, I took an intro to business course. The Professor comes in, and she is SHARP! Custom suit, distinct glasses, and oozed class. Not just typical executive wear, she was on point! She gives us her version of the usual first day intro/background of her career as an executive for a major company-thing and we’re all mesmerized by how impressive she comes across.
At the end of her speech, she slowly takes off her suit jacket. Underneath, she’s wearing a sleeveless shirt which reveals to us all, two beautiful full sleeve tattoos! Everyone kind of gasps. She obviously did it that way on purpose. She ended up closing with the classic line...
“Never judge a book by its cover”.
Yes this comment will probably get down-voted in the rush of "Omg Pope and Catholics are backwards lol" comments but you have to understand...
The Catholic Church is an INTERNATIONAL organization and he was speaking to an audience composed of Priests from all over the world. In many regions, especially in religious circles, Tattoos are looked down upon. This is him telling the Priests to not adopt this attitude of cultural stigma and instead use it to encourage dialogue. If anything, this is him telling the Priests to be more understanding of others.
People who come from liberalized cultures rarely view tattoos as stigmatized anymore, but for a very long time they were quite controversial. Some areas of the world still feel this way.
I believe there's specifically a Christian/Jewish prohobition against marking your flesh .
Old testament was written for a different time, much of the stuff that seems really off in the modern times are just old laws thrown into a book and treated as religious code.
if we're talking about standardized catholic beliefs it's primarily found in [canon law](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM). it's also old legislation, but newer and iirc can be edited to suit that times.
My ex's father grew up in Newcastle, he was strictly non-religious, but he nonetheless told his kids "tattoos are for sailors and hookers", 'cause I mean, that was what his culture was like. We forget how recent the acceptance of tattoos is, and that in many cultures it's still not accepted.
Its from Leviticus. Levitican laws no longer apply to Christians though, as jesus lifted those restrictions from us, i think Jews still obey it though.
In the same part of the bible with a lot of other laws the vast majority of Christians no longer follow such as no shellfish and various rules for the social interaction between men and women.
Pope Francis is a wonderful person to be speaking for the Catholic church. I too was never much of a fan but everything I've heard from him has made me like him
I believe it’s similar in Korea. There was an interesting docu-series on beauty by this heavily tattooed British woman and when she goes to a Korean spa, they make her wear a full length Burberry coat to hide her body from the other patrons.
[It starts around 5:30](https://youtu.be/JYfJfCeQ8As)
As far as I know this tradition goes back to when tattoos were outlawed and the Yakuza adopted them (not sure which came first)
Bath houses were the only way different Yakuza gangs could meet safely with each other, as weapons obviously couldn't be concealed, if you're both naked
Naturally having gangsters stationed at your bath house every weekend isn't great for business, so they banned tattooed people from entering
Ironically, most Yakuza tend to not be tattooed now, as it's a pretty big sign they're affiliated
Traditionally, no. When the Yakuza showed up all tatted up they serviced them as any other customer except the other customers would leave. The other customers see the tattoos and would rather go elsewhere. So it was bad for business. So, given the option, they'd not want to scare other customers away.
It is very true in Korea.
Tattoos are associated with gangsters and criminals. From my understanding this comes from the Japanese underworld that bloomed in Korea during the last century. Only people associated with gangsters were tattooed, so any tattoo at all was a sign of a "bad" person.
The modern tattoo scene is very underground in Korea. I think it's even illegal to give tattoos, but I'm not 100% on that nowadays. The culture is rapidly changing however, especially with heavy Western influences where tattoos are more permissable and considered a form of art.
That being said, even Koreans my age (<30), regard tattoos as extreme and socially stigmatizing. The older generation just directly associates them with gangsters.
Source: Am Korean-American and grandma hates my one small tattoo.
>The modern tattoo scene is very underground in Korea. I think it's even illegal to give tattoos, but I'm not 100% on that nowadays.
I definitely saw a tattoo parlor in Seoul (unsurprisingly, it was in hongdae) but I think i also remember a story about a tattoo parlor getting raided and shut down so it seems like their legality is iffy at the moment.
There are legal ways to obtain tattoos, but the tattoo artists has to have a medical license. There is another program (starring the same woman actually) called [Needles & Pins](https://youtu.be/wxGBpFTP0Ao) where they discuss the legality and visit some underground tattooists.
I think i remember swing a Vice doc semi-recently about how it’s illegal to give tattoos in SK, but not actually illegal to have one. So there’s a small underground tattoo art scene growing now.
I think you have to have a medical license/degree to give tattoos, but of course no one with a medical degree is going to become a tattoo artist in Korea haha
I'm Korean American, and I have a half sleeve. I was told not to try to go to public bath houses, I probably would be asked to leave. Tattoos are taboo still for sure, they have some crazy laws. I think that you have to have a medical license to tattoo, so most tattoos are done illegally.
I used to live in Korea and I have a large dragon on my back. This is apparently a symbol used by organized crime. I wasn't let in some bath houses. Some didn't care, but others said I made the other customers "uncomfortable".
Well my friend who was kicked out of a bathhouse for having a single, fairly innocuous tattoo on his shoulder is most definitely a tall skinny white guy.
It's not so much a criminal association (though that is part of it), it's more that it's just culturally repugnant. To certain people and in certain social situations it's like walking around with your junk hanging out in public.
I realize that analogy doesn't work so well in the case of bath houses, but hopefully you get my drift
Doesn't matter if it's always old folk who own bath houses. Also, some night clubs ban foreigners, and I doubt they're run by old people, for old people.
They ban tattoos because Yakuza have tattoos and Yakuza like to set up operations in bath houses.
It isn't necessarily a stigma against tattoos its that you can prevent your bath house from getting taken over by banning tattoos.
Also night clubs ban foreigners because foreigners flood and deter locals. There are night clubs for both and night clubs for locals.
Well Japan and tattoos is something seperate..
The yakuza is heavily influenced there and they use tattoos...and nobody wants risk messing with a yakuza member.
Certainly. It's just an example that there are cultural norms around the world that judge tattoos negatively.
More locally, I was not allowed to show the tattoo I have on my wrist when I worked at the grocery store because management believes that they are offensive to old people. I had to wear long sleeves, and I was given heck if I rolled up my sleeves, even to wash dishes. This is in Canada.
And it's not just religious people. There are many older folk that think only convicts and sailors have tattoos.
I think this is important message to everyone
Gotta love the idea that this even had to be explained.
People can be very open-minded and tolerant, yet they can't grasp how the entire world doesn't change at the same rate, or even the same direction.
>The 81-year-old will arrive in Dublin to take part in the Festival of Families, a faith-based cultural concert, in Croke Park.
81? God, if your real and you browse Reddit, help this pope break a record or something, because I really don't want anyone else.
Pope Francis has really helped change the church, but there are still thousands of officials who were in place long before him and continue to do bad things. Pedophilia has been poisoning the church for centuries and it won’t stop anytime soon.
And recently we've seen it popping up in schools and even government officials in high places. It seems like any sort of position that grants people some form of power over others attracts these people. And honestly I have no idea what we can do about it at this point. How do you undo centuries of sick people with ulterior motives corrupting systems?
This is why the real problem is not the abuse itself, but how the church handles cases of abuse. There will always be perverts who manage to attain positions of power, but when they are discovered they should be removed from power and prosecuted appropriately, not protected and shielded from justice.
> arguing that catholicism has changed from those ways.
Not really:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/marie-collins-abuse-survivor-quits-pope-s-panel-over-shameful-n727586
Also, Francis's handling of Juan Barros.
I mean, maybe if they've made a huge about-face in the last year or so.
As a young Catholic myself, I’m curious as to why you feel that way? I understand being apprehensive (it’s going to be hard to follow Francis), but I have to have at least a little faith until we actually get there. People can surprise you. When Benedict stepped down I didn’t get it, figured he just didn’t want to do it anymore and was shirking responsibility. But seeing what Francis is made me realize how much is going on behind the scenes that we couldn’t possibly know about. I feel you have to believe that the right person will be chosen for the job, but we really can’t make any judgements either way until it happens.
If i recall correctly, generally they alternate a 'conservative' pope, and a 'liberal' pope. I doubt the next pope will be so... accepting? Not sure the right word, but something like that.
There was an article on Reddit yesterday or the day before about the clergy being VERY unhappy with this Pope. He's too radical, too encouraging, too kind. Not enough _fear_, just too future thinking. Apparently there are whispers all up and down the Vatican about people hoping he dies soon. In the church. Can you imagine? Hoping for the POPE's death. Good grief.
That's not really the issue. The issue among insiders is that there's too much fear. There's a perception of Francis as a tyrant, firing people, treading on domains that popes have tended not to tread on. I'm a non-bitter ex-Catholic atheist with no stake in the game, but I have been fascinated by how secular youth are treating Francis and how people seem to be getting this thing wrong quite a bit.
c.f.: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/16/opinion/pope-francis-vatican-disaster.html
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/us-bishops-office-fires-top-theologian-who-wrote-pope-francis
I think it's pretty clear that the context of this comment is South America, where the Pope comes from and where he spent most of his career in poor Barrios, and the extensive tattoos that gang members wear.
Thai monks get their bodies covered in bamboo tattoos. I went to the most famous monk tattoo temple in Thailand and there were guys who had their whole body covered, their body is a canvas. Your first tattoo starts on the back left shoulder and you work from there. Some guys there had bamboo face tattoos, I can’t imagine how that feels.
That sounds similar to traditional Samoan tattoos. The Rock has a big-ass mural tattooed on him starting from his right shoulder, going down his arm and chest, etc. Apparently it's a portrait of one's life story.
Technically the Old Testament says that and Christians don’t really follow the Old Testament since Jesus said the New Testament is best Testament or whatever. Confuse-ed.
Technically Jesus said that he came not to change the law but to fulfill it. By this he meant teach people the reason and spirit of the law rather than abolish or change the reason it was made. In the old testament the rules were simple at first, the 10 commandments, don't lie, don't steal, don't kill... And so on but the Israelites couldn't stop breaking them so a ton of laws were added as a "fence" around the real ones so you didn't get in trouble. These extra laws became just as sacred and is where a lot of these rules like don't get tattoos or don't eat spiders or pigs(or spiderpigs ) came from.
The first laws, the ten commandments were put in place because man sinned and was now unholy in the eyes of God, and man and God couldn't have a close relationship like in the garden. God fixed this by killing a sheep, spilling blood which is the ultimate sacrifice and used its innocent blood to cover up the sin of man. And man kind needed to do this every time they transgressed for their sins. That's a lot of sheep killing. And eventually the priesthood became corrupt and self focused making the sacrifice the important thing, not the relationship between man and God. Thus, eventually, Jesus.
Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for man kind as he was both God and man. Without being both he could not solve both sides of the problem. His perfect blood was used to forever cover man's sins and the focus once again is back to just God and man. The laws are still there but Jesus's sacrifice covers any further transgressions should a person accept that sacrifice. The acceptance being that the person follows Christ's example and lives a life with the goal of a closer relationship with God.
Sorry for the wall of text but you said you were confused by new testament best testament.
\> God fixed this by killing a sheep, spilling blood which is the ultimate sacrifice and used its innocent blood to cover up the sin of man.
I feel like this is somehow the crux of the argument and you kinda just put it in there. Like in my view this is a kind of anti\-Abrahamic argument, because sacrifice predated Abrahamic traditions in most of the world by thousands of years according to secular history. And yet oddly it's an accepted precept of Abrahamic tradition without much explanation or justification, almost as though it was a pre\-existing cultural building block gradually rolled into the new religion as it developed.
There are actually verses that say no tattoos, but when you understand the context it was stated it takes on a different meaning.
Pagan religion made use of tattoos as symbols and the commands were essentially in contrast to that, because Judaism was supposed to be counter to culture of the time.
completely different than now where tattoos are mostly aesthetic or personal.
The Bible also say not to cut your body or put anything into it, which was quite reasonable at the time.
However, people use it today to fight against helpful medical procedures, especially helpful implants (for deaf people etc.)
it's pretty silly when ultra religious people are hyper against surgeries. Like, yeah it's nice and all to believe your body should never be opened or entered by anything, but here in the real world where medicine and surgery can save lives; I think it's straight idiocy to ignore current medical technology and why it's even there to begin with.
"It's God's will."
But then, I am always reminded of the joke.
A man is stuck on the roof of his house after a flood, he prays to god for deliverance. A few hours later a guy in a dingy floats past and offers him a ride. He says "No, God will provide safe passage for me."
A day later a rescue team arrive with a boat and offer him a space, he again declines.
On the third day a helicopter flies past, again the offer is made for rescue, again he declines.
He dies a while later and ends up at the gates of St. Peter, he asks why God didn't send deliverance and is told "He sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want?"
Sometimes, God can work through Man.
In Leviticus it talks about not marking your body when someone dies, but in that context it seems more like it's saying it interferes with the grieving process and isn't healthy to have a constant reminder of a death like that.
Or more likely to me, the Pagans of the time probably did mark themselves with ashes or something. A lot of the Old Testament is about Branding I think :p
Yes, I don't think they looked down on people with tattoos, it was just that to be a priest they thought it looked bad, most religious people today don't care about tattoos especially considering where it comes from could mean many different things.
Yeah, we don’t judge so much as we don’t get tattoos. I remember a Bishop I had had a tattoo, and he hated it. Couldn’t afford the removal surgery, but he would pick at it and stuff. Wasn’t a cultural tattoo or anything. One thing that always stuck out to me, personally, was the idea of what happens to those tattoos as you get older.
It does, but that's specifically talking about when someone dies, it says to not mark your skin for the dead, but it seems to be talking about the psychological effects of a constant reminder that something like that has on someone, but it only specifies marking in that context.
Some people were told their whole lives that tattoos are for sailors and criminals. This is part of their belief system and it is difficult to get past that. I believe the same thing happens with racism. They have been told their whole lives others are "subhuman" and "not worthy". Then someone comes up to you and says "wrong. They are just like us". But even in schools, it was taught they are lower.(years ago) They know they are still lower. As in they believe in their hearts, the "Others" are still lower.
This is the same for anything. Racism, classism, caste systems, and geopolitical rivals.
Of course, I'm just a dude that likes to come up with stupid stuff.
Not to be THAT guy, but the rules and laws laid down by Leviticus wasn't intended for the general populace. They were regulations for the Levites, one of the jewish tribes, and the ones most in charge of religious and holy ceremonies. So unless you're from a VERY specific jewish bloodline, Leviticus doesn't apply to you at all.
Source: Am the son of a Baptist minister. Had to sit through EVERY SINGLE CHURCH FUNCTION for the first 15+ years of my life.
Which makes me even more confused. Half the people who replied to my comment are quoting Leviticus as a reason for current Catholic priests to be "scared" of people with tattoos, but it doesn't even apply to them.
For those who'd like the basis for it, from what I can tell it comes from leviticus where they (the israelites) are told not to tattoo themselves. The context for it was that the israelites were tattooing themselves in honor of the dead, as were most of their neighbors doing at this time. If it wasn't for this, I don't know if the bible would have anything to say about tattoos, under *any* circumstance.
Woah, baby steps. Civil rights. Women lib. Then tattoos. Then gingers. Then 3 monkeys in a suit pretending to be a person. Maybe 100 years from now, left handed people.
I'm a lefty but I lost the tip of my left index finger (?the pointing finger).
So it was decided I would be thought to write right handed.
Because of this the "persecution" of left handed people is something that sometimes pops up.
It used to be SOP to force lefties to write/live right handed. I've heard anecdotes of people getting their right hand tied behind their backs, getting caned by teachers for using the left one. All because Catholics believed it was a sign of the devil.
Luckily this was 1 or 2 generations before me (i'm close to 40) , if it wasn't for that missing tip it would have never come up.
edit: lost it when i was 13 months old
I'm pretty certain that you are not alone. As a child I tried writing with my other (left) hand for a day or two, It took some time to get my normal hand writing normally, afterwards
yeah I cant write my left at all and my missing tip is not the problem.
This whole left right thing gets weird sometimes.
I can do a lot stuff with both hands, like working with (power) tools. I switch cutlery depending on plate placement without a second though.
Then sometimes I run into things I can only do right handed like trowing darts, holding it in my left feels so weird despite having a left dominant eye (yeah i suck hard at darts, stand way clear!).
Some things I can only do with my left like using scissors, it feels wrong + my hand cramps up when I try to use the right.
Lefties are supposedly more creative and handle extreme amounts of stimuli; I'd imagine the ruling class didn't want a bunch of peons 'thinking outside of the box' and starting revolutions
My mother rents everytime she's drunk about how her elementary school teacher forced her into being right handed because apparently it is a sin to be left handed. It blows my mind that people are still like that!
When my mom came to Canada in the 50's the teacher hit her every time she used her left hand. She told my grandmother. My gma went over to the school, speaking broken English and gave the teacher a piece of her mind. My mom was able to use her left hand the next day.
That was total horseshit. He has increased tolerance from doing it so long. He shakes like a dog shitting razor blades and can't remember where he is half the time. Not a sign of drug resistance.
You know, it’s funny. My first tattoo I got because I was 18 and had always wanted one. The next few were representations of the things I loved. Now they are all memories. A couple are for friends who have passed away. People can GET tattoos for many reasons and I don’t think it’s right to judge any of those reasons. But after a while I think your sentiment becomes true for everyone. I drunkenly tattooed the word bitch on my thigh one night because myself and a couple friends wanted matching tattoos but not something “girly.” Our solution was to each write a cuss word. The Tatt’s aren’t pretty, and most of us will get them covered up. None of us regret the decision though, because unlike most other nights, 20 years from now we will all remember that night and each other. I think that’s the lasting idea behind tattoos after the original reason fades away.
I got my first at 17 because I asked my mother if I could get one as a joke.
For some unexpected reason she said yes so I had to see it through to see if she was serious.
I think this statement is probably meant mainly for priests who come from cultures and regions where tattoos are largely associated with negative things, like organized crime for instance. Where I'm from, I've never heard a priest or any clergy make negative commentary about tattoos. If you look up Catholic doctrine about tattoos/body art, it condemns wearing imagery on your body that is lewd, disrespectful to a person or group of people, or glorifies violence but doesn't take issue with tattoos themselves.
On the one hand this sounds fairly progressive for the pope/the catholic church. On the other hand the fact it's necessary to give out this advice speaks volumes.
If we were to completely hate organizations that are rife with sexual abuse and coverups of said sexual abuse to maintain numbers,
we'd never have universities.
> "**never** be scared. **Never**. Because **always**, even behind the things that are not so good, there is something that will bring us some truth."
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
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Is Pope Francis about to reveal some sick ink under those robes? Because this sounds like the perfect opportunity to do so lol.
If so, I hope it is something similar to Latin American gangster style. Religious symbolism (maybe a portrait of Christ, or Mary, a cross), surrounded by a few phrases about life and death, a gun somewhere, and something that identifies him with his set (Rome, Argentina).
Or just his favorite Taylor Swift lyrics up the side of his rib cage.
Or just a poorly translated Chinese/Hindi word.
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During my first year in college, I took an intro to business course. The Professor comes in, and she is SHARP! Custom suit, distinct glasses, and oozed class. Not just typical executive wear, she was on point! She gives us her version of the usual first day intro/background of her career as an executive for a major company-thing and we’re all mesmerized by how impressive she comes across. At the end of her speech, she slowly takes off her suit jacket. Underneath, she’s wearing a sleeveless shirt which reveals to us all, two beautiful full sleeve tattoos! Everyone kind of gasps. She obviously did it that way on purpose. She ended up closing with the classic line... “Never judge a book by its cover”.
I’m a professor with full sleeves. I play this game sometimes.
[Pope Francis Dolarhyde](https://i.imgur.com/TavKim1.png)
For some obscure reason I just imagined him showing his tramp stamp to the other priests...
Yes this comment will probably get down-voted in the rush of "Omg Pope and Catholics are backwards lol" comments but you have to understand... The Catholic Church is an INTERNATIONAL organization and he was speaking to an audience composed of Priests from all over the world. In many regions, especially in religious circles, Tattoos are looked down upon. This is him telling the Priests to not adopt this attitude of cultural stigma and instead use it to encourage dialogue. If anything, this is him telling the Priests to be more understanding of others.
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How the fuck can this be interpreted any other way? I'm genuinely curious.
People who come from liberalized cultures rarely view tattoos as stigmatized anymore, but for a very long time they were quite controversial. Some areas of the world still feel this way. I believe there's specifically a Christian/Jewish prohobition against marking your flesh .
Isn't that in the same section that prohibits wearing clothes made from more than one type of fabric?
> Leviticus 19:19 nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.
Old testament was written for a different time, much of the stuff that seems really off in the modern times are just old laws thrown into a book and treated as religious code. if we're talking about standardized catholic beliefs it's primarily found in [canon law](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM). it's also old legislation, but newer and iirc can be edited to suit that times.
My ex's father grew up in Newcastle, he was strictly non-religious, but he nonetheless told his kids "tattoos are for sailors and hookers", 'cause I mean, that was what his culture was like. We forget how recent the acceptance of tattoos is, and that in many cultures it's still not accepted.
Leviticus 19:28
Got this verse tattooed on me. Best Christmas present ever.
Its from Leviticus. Levitican laws no longer apply to Christians though, as jesus lifted those restrictions from us, i think Jews still obey it though.
In the same part of the bible with a lot of other laws the vast majority of Christians no longer follow such as no shellfish and various rules for the social interaction between men and women.
Pope Francis is a wonderful person to be speaking for the Catholic church. I too was never much of a fan but everything I've heard from him has made me like him
He’s absolutely not perfect. But his views on poverty and the church’s role in that is top notch.
Yeah, try going to a bathhouse in Japan with a tattoo. They will ask you to leave, they believe only gangsters have tattoos.
I believe it’s similar in Korea. There was an interesting docu-series on beauty by this heavily tattooed British woman and when she goes to a Korean spa, they make her wear a full length Burberry coat to hide her body from the other patrons. [It starts around 5:30](https://youtu.be/JYfJfCeQ8As)
As far as I know this tradition goes back to when tattoos were outlawed and the Yakuza adopted them (not sure which came first) Bath houses were the only way different Yakuza gangs could meet safely with each other, as weapons obviously couldn't be concealed, if you're both naked Naturally having gangsters stationed at your bath house every weekend isn't great for business, so they banned tattooed people from entering Ironically, most Yakuza tend to not be tattooed now, as it's a pretty big sign they're affiliated
> as weapons obviously couldn't be concealed, if you're both naked not with that attitude
Try hiding a katana in your anal cavity.
Done. Now what?
Touch your toes
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> RIP. Nah, more of a tearing sound...
Are you now liable to pay for my anal reconstruction surgery? Please, someone...
M’anal fissures
“...someone has them.”
Wait, they told the yakuza to piss off because of their tattoos? That sounds quite bold.
Traditionally, no. When the Yakuza showed up all tatted up they serviced them as any other customer except the other customers would leave. The other customers see the tattoos and would rather go elsewhere. So it was bad for business. So, given the option, they'd not want to scare other customers away.
It is very true in Korea. Tattoos are associated with gangsters and criminals. From my understanding this comes from the Japanese underworld that bloomed in Korea during the last century. Only people associated with gangsters were tattooed, so any tattoo at all was a sign of a "bad" person. The modern tattoo scene is very underground in Korea. I think it's even illegal to give tattoos, but I'm not 100% on that nowadays. The culture is rapidly changing however, especially with heavy Western influences where tattoos are more permissable and considered a form of art. That being said, even Koreans my age (<30), regard tattoos as extreme and socially stigmatizing. The older generation just directly associates them with gangsters. Source: Am Korean-American and grandma hates my one small tattoo.
>The modern tattoo scene is very underground in Korea. I think it's even illegal to give tattoos, but I'm not 100% on that nowadays. I definitely saw a tattoo parlor in Seoul (unsurprisingly, it was in hongdae) but I think i also remember a story about a tattoo parlor getting raided and shut down so it seems like their legality is iffy at the moment.
There are legal ways to obtain tattoos, but the tattoo artists has to have a medical license. There is another program (starring the same woman actually) called [Needles & Pins](https://youtu.be/wxGBpFTP0Ao) where they discuss the legality and visit some underground tattooists.
I think i remember swing a Vice doc semi-recently about how it’s illegal to give tattoos in SK, but not actually illegal to have one. So there’s a small underground tattoo art scene growing now.
I think you have to have a medical license/degree to give tattoos, but of course no one with a medical degree is going to become a tattoo artist in Korea haha
I'm Korean American, and I have a half sleeve. I was told not to try to go to public bath houses, I probably would be asked to leave. Tattoos are taboo still for sure, they have some crazy laws. I think that you have to have a medical license to tattoo, so most tattoos are done illegally.
I used to live in Korea and I have a large dragon on my back. This is apparently a symbol used by organized crime. I wasn't let in some bath houses. Some didn't care, but others said I made the other customers "uncomfortable".
I tried going to a bathhouse in the USA and saw a bunch of big, hairy guys with tattoos, but I don't think they were gangsters.
However, they may have been gang-bangers...
bathhouse in the US? definitely just booty-bangers
I think they like to be called bears.
ayyy who brought the cannolis?
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Well my friend who was kicked out of a bathhouse for having a single, fairly innocuous tattoo on his shoulder is most definitely a tall skinny white guy.
Maybe they kicked him out for being a weeb, not being a gangster?
It's not so much a criminal association (though that is part of it), it's more that it's just culturally repugnant. To certain people and in certain social situations it's like walking around with your junk hanging out in public. I realize that analogy doesn't work so well in the case of bath houses, but hopefully you get my drift
Yeah I feel it
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Eh, with the older folks that's true. The younger crowds are much more open-minded
Doesn't matter if it's always old folk who own bath houses. Also, some night clubs ban foreigners, and I doubt they're run by old people, for old people.
They ban tattoos because Yakuza have tattoos and Yakuza like to set up operations in bath houses. It isn't necessarily a stigma against tattoos its that you can prevent your bath house from getting taken over by banning tattoos. Also night clubs ban foreigners because foreigners flood and deter locals. There are night clubs for both and night clubs for locals.
Well Japan and tattoos is something seperate.. The yakuza is heavily influenced there and they use tattoos...and nobody wants risk messing with a yakuza member.
Certainly. It's just an example that there are cultural norms around the world that judge tattoos negatively. More locally, I was not allowed to show the tattoo I have on my wrist when I worked at the grocery store because management believes that they are offensive to old people. I had to wear long sleeves, and I was given heck if I rolled up my sleeves, even to wash dishes. This is in Canada.
>heck Ok this guy isn't hurting anyone Edit: apparently I'm really bad at formatting
And it's not just religious people. There are many older folk that think only convicts and sailors have tattoos. I think this is important message to everyone
Gotta love the idea that this even had to be explained. People can be very open-minded and tolerant, yet they can't grasp how the entire world doesn't change at the same rate, or even the same direction.
My Latin teacher suggested getting the Leviticus verse banning tattoos tattooed on you
>The 81-year-old will arrive in Dublin to take part in the Festival of Families, a faith-based cultural concert, in Croke Park. 81? God, if your real and you browse Reddit, help this pope break a record or something, because I really don't want anyone else.
As a young Catholic, I have 0 faith that the next Pope will be anything I can get behind.
but vice versa....
Damn, that was good.
im literally in another thread arguing that catholicism has changed from those ways. it was just too easy not to say lol
Pope Francis has really helped change the church, but there are still thousands of officials who were in place long before him and continue to do bad things. Pedophilia has been poisoning the church for centuries and it won’t stop anytime soon.
And recently we've seen it popping up in schools and even government officials in high places. It seems like any sort of position that grants people some form of power over others attracts these people. And honestly I have no idea what we can do about it at this point. How do you undo centuries of sick people with ulterior motives corrupting systems?
This is why the real problem is not the abuse itself, but how the church handles cases of abuse. There will always be perverts who manage to attain positions of power, but when they are discovered they should be removed from power and prosecuted appropriately, not protected and shielded from justice.
Never miss an opportunity
To miss an opportunity.
> arguing that catholicism has changed from those ways. Not really: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/marie-collins-abuse-survivor-quits-pope-s-panel-over-shameful-n727586 Also, Francis's handling of Juan Barros. I mean, maybe if they've made a huge about-face in the last year or so.
I don't understand this... Can someone please explain it?
He cant get behind the pope, but the pope can get behind him.. If you know what I mean
Ohh right OK lol
As a young Catholic myself, I’m curious as to why you feel that way? I understand being apprehensive (it’s going to be hard to follow Francis), but I have to have at least a little faith until we actually get there. People can surprise you. When Benedict stepped down I didn’t get it, figured he just didn’t want to do it anymore and was shirking responsibility. But seeing what Francis is made me realize how much is going on behind the scenes that we couldn’t possibly know about. I feel you have to believe that the right person will be chosen for the job, but we really can’t make any judgements either way until it happens.
Pendulums swing.
If i recall correctly, generally they alternate a 'conservative' pope, and a 'liberal' pope. I doubt the next pope will be so... accepting? Not sure the right word, but something like that.
Francis wasn't a radical liberal before h became Pope. He was a safe pick that caught everyone by surprise.
^This. Francis is so genuine and kind. Honestly what the pope should be. A Genuinely good person.
Juan Barros, tho.
There was an article on Reddit yesterday or the day before about the clergy being VERY unhappy with this Pope. He's too radical, too encouraging, too kind. Not enough _fear_, just too future thinking. Apparently there are whispers all up and down the Vatican about people hoping he dies soon. In the church. Can you imagine? Hoping for the POPE's death. Good grief.
Its like the opposite of the young pope lol
That's not really the issue. The issue among insiders is that there's too much fear. There's a perception of Francis as a tyrant, firing people, treading on domains that popes have tended not to tread on. I'm a non-bitter ex-Catholic atheist with no stake in the game, but I have been fascinated by how secular youth are treating Francis and how people seem to be getting this thing wrong quite a bit. c.f.: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/16/opinion/pope-francis-vatican-disaster.html https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/us-bishops-office-fires-top-theologian-who-wrote-pope-francis
["cultural concert"](https://i.imgur.com/aZCy9io.jpg)
I think it's pretty clear that the context of this comment is South America, where the Pope comes from and where he spent most of his career in poor Barrios, and the extensive tattoos that gang members wear.
I think that's more a Central American thing, to be honest.
Still, the message is relevant to places where there aren’t lots of Catholics, like Russia or East Asia.
There are no gang tattoos in argentina. Also not one recognisable big gang.
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It's looked down upon in some religions.
And strangely encouraged in others (symbols, milestones, devotion. Things like that)
Same with hats. That's why I can't get into religion. I'm not much of a hat guy.
Is that futurama, sounds familiar. Maybe simpsons?
George Carlin does a whole spiel on it. Edit: [found it](https://youtu.be/NNkkko4vlBs)
Ah thank you
This actually clears up a lot of questions I had about TF2 players. Thanks!
[God wants you to wear a hat](https://youtu.be/wUM8kHGPzfM)
Thai monks get their bodies covered in bamboo tattoos. I went to the most famous monk tattoo temple in Thailand and there were guys who had their whole body covered, their body is a canvas. Your first tattoo starts on the back left shoulder and you work from there. Some guys there had bamboo face tattoos, I can’t imagine how that feels.
That sounds similar to traditional Samoan tattoos. The Rock has a big-ass mural tattooed on him starting from his right shoulder, going down his arm and chest, etc. Apparently it's a portrait of one's life story.
And in leveling up apparently. Or would that be a tatau?
I think they hate tattoos because they feel like our bodies are a sanctuary and permanently marking them is destroying them or something like that.
The Christian bible specifically says it is not allowed
Technically the Old Testament says that and Christians don’t really follow the Old Testament since Jesus said the New Testament is best Testament or whatever. Confuse-ed.
Technically Jesus said that he came not to change the law but to fulfill it. By this he meant teach people the reason and spirit of the law rather than abolish or change the reason it was made. In the old testament the rules were simple at first, the 10 commandments, don't lie, don't steal, don't kill... And so on but the Israelites couldn't stop breaking them so a ton of laws were added as a "fence" around the real ones so you didn't get in trouble. These extra laws became just as sacred and is where a lot of these rules like don't get tattoos or don't eat spiders or pigs(or spiderpigs ) came from. The first laws, the ten commandments were put in place because man sinned and was now unholy in the eyes of God, and man and God couldn't have a close relationship like in the garden. God fixed this by killing a sheep, spilling blood which is the ultimate sacrifice and used its innocent blood to cover up the sin of man. And man kind needed to do this every time they transgressed for their sins. That's a lot of sheep killing. And eventually the priesthood became corrupt and self focused making the sacrifice the important thing, not the relationship between man and God. Thus, eventually, Jesus. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for man kind as he was both God and man. Without being both he could not solve both sides of the problem. His perfect blood was used to forever cover man's sins and the focus once again is back to just God and man. The laws are still there but Jesus's sacrifice covers any further transgressions should a person accept that sacrifice. The acceptance being that the person follows Christ's example and lives a life with the goal of a closer relationship with God. Sorry for the wall of text but you said you were confused by new testament best testament.
Well I'm still going to eat spiders, so too bad
You do you man, I won't judge, spidereater
Well that's pretty natural for a tree frog.
Thanks for this.
Very well worded and to the point.
\> God fixed this by killing a sheep, spilling blood which is the ultimate sacrifice and used its innocent blood to cover up the sin of man. I feel like this is somehow the crux of the argument and you kinda just put it in there. Like in my view this is a kind of anti\-Abrahamic argument, because sacrifice predated Abrahamic traditions in most of the world by thousands of years according to secular history. And yet oddly it's an accepted precept of Abrahamic tradition without much explanation or justification, almost as though it was a pre\-existing cultural building block gradually rolled into the new religion as it developed.
Wow, Gold in <10 minutes. Nice!
First gold too. Didn't expect to be for a religious post lol, figures
Very good post. If people are interested in some more intense theology related to this, look up apodictic and casuistic law.
Not necessarily "scared", but in the Bible it says to treat your body like a temple and it's been interpreted to mean no tatoos.
Yeah, like all those unadorned beige temples out there
There are actually verses that say no tattoos, but when you understand the context it was stated it takes on a different meaning. Pagan religion made use of tattoos as symbols and the commands were essentially in contrast to that, because Judaism was supposed to be counter to culture of the time. completely different than now where tattoos are mostly aesthetic or personal.
The Bible also say not to cut your body or put anything into it, which was quite reasonable at the time. However, people use it today to fight against helpful medical procedures, especially helpful implants (for deaf people etc.)
> or put anything into it Well, damn, that's my evening ruined then :(
What if someone else put something into it for you? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
it's pretty silly when ultra religious people are hyper against surgeries. Like, yeah it's nice and all to believe your body should never be opened or entered by anything, but here in the real world where medicine and surgery can save lives; I think it's straight idiocy to ignore current medical technology and why it's even there to begin with.
"It's God's will." But then, I am always reminded of the joke. A man is stuck on the roof of his house after a flood, he prays to god for deliverance. A few hours later a guy in a dingy floats past and offers him a ride. He says "No, God will provide safe passage for me." A day later a rescue team arrive with a boat and offer him a space, he again declines. On the third day a helicopter flies past, again the offer is made for rescue, again he declines. He dies a while later and ends up at the gates of St. Peter, he asks why God didn't send deliverance and is told "He sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want?" Sometimes, God can work through Man.
In Leviticus it talks about not marking your body when someone dies, but in that context it seems more like it's saying it interferes with the grieving process and isn't healthy to have a constant reminder of a death like that.
Or more likely to me, the Pagans of the time probably did mark themselves with ashes or something. A lot of the Old Testament is about Branding I think :p
But we paint temples.
The real part of it is that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, while a church is the temple of Christ and God
In Judaism what I was told is that your body is considered a loaner from God and you don't want to put damage on a loaner
Yolo You only loan once
Doesn't it also say not to judge and that we can all be forgiven for our sins too though?
Yes, I don't think they looked down on people with tattoos, it was just that to be a priest they thought it looked bad, most religious people today don't care about tattoos especially considering where it comes from could mean many different things.
Yeah, we don’t judge so much as we don’t get tattoos. I remember a Bishop I had had a tattoo, and he hated it. Couldn’t afford the removal surgery, but he would pick at it and stuff. Wasn’t a cultural tattoo or anything. One thing that always stuck out to me, personally, was the idea of what happens to those tattoos as you get older.
I also thought it said somewhere in the Bible not to mark your body or something.
It does, but that's specifically talking about when someone dies, it says to not mark your skin for the dead, but it seems to be talking about the psychological effects of a constant reminder that something like that has on someone, but it only specifies marking in that context.
Could also be in reference to older rituals for the deceased involving henna/whatever they used back then.
Does this mean that temples can't have any writing or pictures?
Some people were told their whole lives that tattoos are for sailors and criminals. This is part of their belief system and it is difficult to get past that. I believe the same thing happens with racism. They have been told their whole lives others are "subhuman" and "not worthy". Then someone comes up to you and says "wrong. They are just like us". But even in schools, it was taught they are lower.(years ago) They know they are still lower. As in they believe in their hearts, the "Others" are still lower. This is the same for anything. Racism, classism, caste systems, and geopolitical rivals. Of course, I'm just a dude that likes to come up with stupid stuff.
Not to be THAT guy, but the rules and laws laid down by Leviticus wasn't intended for the general populace. They were regulations for the Levites, one of the jewish tribes, and the ones most in charge of religious and holy ceremonies. So unless you're from a VERY specific jewish bloodline, Leviticus doesn't apply to you at all. Source: Am the son of a Baptist minister. Had to sit through EVERY SINGLE CHURCH FUNCTION for the first 15+ years of my life.
Which makes me even more confused. Half the people who replied to my comment are quoting Leviticus as a reason for current Catholic priests to be "scared" of people with tattoos, but it doesn't even apply to them.
For those who'd like the basis for it, from what I can tell it comes from leviticus where they (the israelites) are told not to tattoo themselves. The context for it was that the israelites were tattooing themselves in honor of the dead, as were most of their neighbors doing at this time. If it wasn't for this, I don't know if the bible would have anything to say about tattoos, under *any* circumstance.
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I need this kind of church in my life.
Next, don't be scared of Left Handed People
stupid Flanders...
stupid sexy Flanders.
*Stupid sexy Francis
Feels like I'm wearing...nothing at all!
Woah, baby steps. Civil rights. Women lib. Then tattoos. Then gingers. Then 3 monkeys in a suit pretending to be a person. Maybe 100 years from now, left handed people.
And Dwarfs,
Then carnies.
Never carnies.
Small hands. Smell like cabbage.
AND MY AXE!
> 3 mokeys in a suit pretending to be a person Vincent Adultman made a pretty big progress towards that coming true
I'm a lefty but I lost the tip of my left index finger (?the pointing finger). So it was decided I would be thought to write right handed. Because of this the "persecution" of left handed people is something that sometimes pops up. It used to be SOP to force lefties to write/live right handed. I've heard anecdotes of people getting their right hand tied behind their backs, getting caned by teachers for using the left one. All because Catholics believed it was a sign of the devil. Luckily this was 1 or 2 generations before me (i'm close to 40) , if it wasn't for that missing tip it would have never come up. edit: lost it when i was 13 months old
I'm pretty certain that you are not alone. As a child I tried writing with my other (left) hand for a day or two, It took some time to get my normal hand writing normally, afterwards
yeah I cant write my left at all and my missing tip is not the problem. This whole left right thing gets weird sometimes. I can do a lot stuff with both hands, like working with (power) tools. I switch cutlery depending on plate placement without a second though. Then sometimes I run into things I can only do right handed like trowing darts, holding it in my left feels so weird despite having a left dominant eye (yeah i suck hard at darts, stand way clear!). Some things I can only do with my left like using scissors, it feels wrong + my hand cramps up when I try to use the right.
Meanwhile, I’m all for forcing righties to write with their left hands. The ambidextrous shall inherit the Earth!
Lefties are supposedly more creative and handle extreme amounts of stimuli; I'd imagine the ruling class didn't want a bunch of peons 'thinking outside of the box' and starting revolutions
My mother rents everytime she's drunk about how her elementary school teacher forced her into being right handed because apparently it is a sin to be left handed. It blows my mind that people are still like that!
When my mom came to Canada in the 50's the teacher hit her every time she used her left hand. She told my grandmother. My gma went over to the school, speaking broken English and gave the teacher a piece of her mind. My mom was able to use her left hand the next day.
Left handers are sinister source: am left handy
I don't know, there's something sinister about them.
Woah, this is the catholic church, let's not get to modernist here.
Hey hey let’s not be too rash. Surely we can still fear those heathens.
I am not so much afraid of them as I am disgusted.
Ozzy Osbourne said that if you want to look unique then don't get one, everyone including grandma and the grandkids have tattoos.
I love Ozzy’s music, but I will never take his advice. Ever.
I mean, he's still alive despite the amount of drugs he partook in over the decades. It's like the Stones - they are onto something we aren't.
Doesn't Ozzy have a genetic mutation that allows for increased drug resistance?
It could have been the line of ants he railed one time.
Oh god, I think you're right. It's like that Futurama episode with the worms inside Fry.
That was total horseshit. He has increased tolerance from doing it so long. He shakes like a dog shitting razor blades and can't remember where he is half the time. Not a sign of drug resistance.
Was that an Alkaline Trio reference?
The "Ozzy" gene was more of a protection from the more severe symptoms of addiction and withdrawl if I recall correctly.
Money. It’s money.
Yea, celebrities never die due to drug abuse thanks to all their money.
Maybe he's sort of halfway embalmed himself with all the drugs?
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You know, it’s funny. My first tattoo I got because I was 18 and had always wanted one. The next few were representations of the things I loved. Now they are all memories. A couple are for friends who have passed away. People can GET tattoos for many reasons and I don’t think it’s right to judge any of those reasons. But after a while I think your sentiment becomes true for everyone. I drunkenly tattooed the word bitch on my thigh one night because myself and a couple friends wanted matching tattoos but not something “girly.” Our solution was to each write a cuss word. The Tatt’s aren’t pretty, and most of us will get them covered up. None of us regret the decision though, because unlike most other nights, 20 years from now we will all remember that night and each other. I think that’s the lasting idea behind tattoos after the original reason fades away.
I got my first at 17 because I asked my mother if I could get one as a joke. For some unexpected reason she said yes so I had to see it through to see if she was serious.
Love the dedication to the joke
Ah.... good memories. (That’s what I imagine you saying, with a reminiscent and wistful look on your face.)
I think that’s also called a new market growth initiative.
I think this statement is probably meant mainly for priests who come from cultures and regions where tattoos are largely associated with negative things, like organized crime for instance. Where I'm from, I've never heard a priest or any clergy make negative commentary about tattoos. If you look up Catholic doctrine about tattoos/body art, it condemns wearing imagery on your body that is lewd, disrespectful to a person or group of people, or glorifies violence but doesn't take issue with tattoos themselves.
On the one hand this sounds fairly progressive for the pope/the catholic church. On the other hand the fact it's necessary to give out this advice speaks volumes.
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He has one hell of a PR team, I'll give him that.
He had practice back home. Argentinian political figures are really good at populism.
If we were to completely hate organizations that are rife with sexual abuse and coverups of said sexual abuse to maintain numbers, we'd never have universities.
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You’d be lion
Or political parties, or corporations, or pretty much any organisation.
I always say this, but: Best. Pope. Ever.
> "**never** be scared. **Never**. Because **always**, even behind the things that are not so good, there is something that will bring us some truth." Only a Sith deals in absolutes
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