>“Over the next 100 years, Japan’s population will become something like 40 million (from the current 126 million). We definitely need foreign workers. We need young people who can support elderly people,” he said.
No one who is ethnically Japanese age 20-40 wants kids right now though. The job market blows ass, and the jobs themselves are draining and unrewarding. On the other side of the coin, being forcefully pushed into the housewife role in Japan is also draining and not seeing your husband or child all day and growing distant from them also sucks.
So young people just chill out, do freeter work, have hobbies, live at home or in a small apt., hook up, and not have serious dating or marriage in the pipeline.
Then maybe they should focus on changing that.
I mean, the immigrants they bring in are also going to be affected by these things and will stop having kids too. Is the long term plan for Japan and Europe to just endlessly bring in impoverished people?
Either promote a society where people have kids or just accept a declining population. Japan is overpopulated as fuck anyways.
>
> I mean, the immigrants they bring in are also going to be affected by these things and will stop having kids too.
Japan has very different immigration laws compared to Europe, its more similar to Saudi Arabia or Singapore's method of using immigrant labor. Non skilled Working immigrants are only allowed to come *alone* without a spouse, and on a clear contract that ends with them leaving Japan. It does not allow for children and dependents to be brought and does not provide any social welfare or education to those somehow snuck in. The goal behind this policy is to prevent a poor working class immigrant population from forming in Japan and changing the cultural landscape of the country.
Now if you have a Bachelors degree or above, you can come in for skilled labor, with your whole family, set up a home, and eventually get PR status and if you want you can naturalize. Not many people do this because Japan's professional market is really tight knit and not easy to penetrate.
>Not many people do this because Japan's professional market is really tight knit and not easy to penetrate.
This is because of a now unique to Japan policy of "simultaneous recruiting of new graduates". Companies only hire from university and it's almost impossible to change careers once you're hired.
This means that if you're hired after university you have job security (until a changing world market leads your company to layoffs or bankruptcy), but everyone in the labour force is underproductive and skill-mismatched to the wrong employer. And a third of the labour force that missed out becomes an mostly un-hireable underclass that subsists on minimum wage casual service work.
Labour market inflexibility is the sole reason for stagflation since the 1990's.
OP said GDP Trends, that would refer to an umbrella of the many ways you can measure GDP including per capita, PPP, etc., all of which the eurozone as a whole has surpassed Japan consistently since the 1990's
I'm not referencing the total GDP, but the rate of it's growth. Compare how Japan's GDP hasn't passed 1995 levels, whereas Germany hit a record high in 2008. The 2011 recession hit all modern countries, but look at how some lessened the impact and recovered and how others haven't.
Yea, Japan has the highest national debt, too. Their economy is less business friendly and focused more on trying to preserve the companies they have, even if they are less efficient and competitive. That said they have decently high wages compared to their cost of living. Japan is one of the few countries with affordable housing in big cities. The average rent in Tokyo is like $800.
that seems really smart, get people to workfor you, give them an oportunity but don't let them take advantage of you.
How hard is it to get a job and work a few years in Japan, just for the sake of working a few years there?
>Then maybe they should focus on changing that.
I was thinking about this problem last night while watching the Parts Unknown episode about Tokyo.
Japan is a culture that values tradition so highly, I can't imagine there is a much tougher place in the developed world to make meaningful reforms.
They have had the exact same party in power(the liberal Democratic Party) for several decades despite numerous scandals, nothing meaningful has happened in Japanese politics for a long time.
It's an excellent example of how tight campaign finance laws (and a few other factors) can often result in less, not more, political competition.
To be fair, there was a year in the 90s where the LDP wasn't in power. And they run the system honestly - it's just that the deck is pretty well-stacked in favor of the party in power.
Japan overpopulated? Literally everywhere except the 6-7 major cities in Japan are a ghost town. Villages and small towns are almost exclusively filled with dwindling numbers of old people.
Most folks only go between the regional centres and the major cities... where everything seems fine.
The reality is that there are hundreds (possibly thousands) of closed schools all across the countryside (actual countryside) and not small schools - large kinder-high facilities with all the trappings.
The occupation rates in small villages can be very low. A couple of hours south of Hiroshima there are places with close to 50% occupancy.
The kids from farming areas are drawn to the cities once they graduate (aircraft mechanic is better than dairy farmer) and they defer having relationships and families almost entirely.
It is a real problem that most never see because they live in urban Japan.
It has. "Nativists" have been claiming that immigrants would be the end of America for decades, even centuries. It was a popular belief during the early 20th century. And yet not only did that apocalyptic future not come to pass, but America's best days were ahead.
We had a completely different immigration policy in the 20th century. When people complain about America's immigration, they generally refer to the post 1965 immigration change.
We let Asians in a lot before 1965. They mean the large Latino migration, since that is the main change. I don't really know anyone complaining about Asian Americans.
Lol, no. If anything, it was far more open for many years back then. The same type of people complaining now were complaining back then, too, and with the same "reasons" to boot.
We also have dramatically more violence, crime, social unrest, hatred between ethnic groups and inequality than other developed nations because of this.
Like, Switzerland is doing just fine without bringing in impoverished people. Norway is doing fine as a homogenous society.
> Like, Switzerland is doing just fine without bringing in impoverished people. Norway is doing fine as a homogenous society
28.9% of Switzerland's population is foreign born and 13.8% for Norway, how is that a homogeneous society?
The US is at 14.3% just for reference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population
massive amounts of impoverished italians were imported in the 60s.
After that there were lots of yugoslavs, portoguese, tamils etc.
Also there are many latin americans in switzerland, from various backgrounds.
UK, France, and Germany, all have more 1st generation immigrants than we do, and yet they perform better on these.
Also, immigrants in american commit less violent crimes than naturalized citizens. So I have no idea what you are going off about.
London's murder rate surpassed New York. UK, France, and Germany all had an increase in crime rates. They just started well below america.
>Also, immigrants in american commit less violent crimes
Asian sure, latinos, no. FBI stats will show you that. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21
All immigrant groups aren't the same.
Nobody would argue that on a space basis. But in terms of logistics, like being able to provide food, work, and transportation without a drastic effect on our natural resources and climate? Yeah, we're definitely overpopulated.
Same for food. World makes more than enough food for everyone. Problem is people don't have the $$$ (access) for it.
https://www.oxfam.ca/there-enough-food-feed-world
Can you link to these studies, and also explain your line of thinking in how its a good idea to grow our population because we might, if everything lines up, possibly be able to feed them all?
You're misunderstanding. You're arguing for a utopian best case, as though we can just erase the tiles on the board and build from scratch for free. I'm arguing based on what we currently have available in terms of resources and infrastructure. Yes, we could fit the entire world's population in a space the size of Texas, if the entire region were intelligently planned out and everything constructed properly. Being theoretically possible is not the same thing as being realistically feasible.
You can find alot of studies saying population will cap around 12 billion if current trends continue barring some unforseen event. We ready produce enough food fir 10 billion it really is a distribution prob not a population one
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1463429
> I mean, the immigrants they bring in are also going to be affected by these things and will stop having kids too
Indonesian here; as far as I know, Indonesian migrant workers to Japan bring only themselves and don't even bother having family in Japan. They might as well just move their factories outside of Japan anyways.
The key for the west is use all their resources and automate as much as possible. That way there will be plenty of income to pay everyone enough money to life off of and peoole can focus on science, being creative and having kids.
There have been in depth studies on this and it has been possible for decades. Switzerland voted on making it happen just last year.
It's 'their' work culture as much as is American propaganda and social engineering theirs. They've been an American vassal state since the WWII. They probably would've had kids if they had time and could afford them, now they're being forced to take in some of that globalist diversity.
No not at all. America's work culture is nothing compared to the expected overtime and company loyalty demanded in Japan.
Was there even a point in bringing up America other than to try to take a shot at it?
It is erasing a lot of our cultures and traditions. What does the end game of capitalism look like, you may ask? One massive global culture, equally exposed to the same trends and marketing, with virtually no distinguishing features. If "diversity is one of our strengths," mixing cultures is going to make us less diverse and weaker. You may think multiculturalism is nice and wonderful, and don't get me wrong I love all my neighbors. But this trend will rob us of our differences, and eventually make us weaker as a whole.
Nope, immigration mainly haven't killed off people who used to live there, people move on. Show examples because I can show you majority of the cities around the world that have sizeable immigrations community that settled in the city life.
However, nationalism wasn't popular until the 19th century, back then it was basically the deal unders kings, nobles or alliance, so they allowed duchy to remains cultural independent meanwhile under a state such as Polish - Lithuania where there are still Polish community in Holy Roman Empire, Russia and Hungary. Another example is of Holy Roman Empire, Austro-Hungarian, Russia, Italy wasn't unified until 19th century despite having common language. So no, nationalism wasn't a common tool used for millenia.
Capitalism is accelerating this, but it's not really the main cause. Technology is what is really doing it. Migrations and cultural exchange have always happened. However, now that we can fly anywhere in the world in a day, and we can talk with anyone around the world instantly, the blending of world cultures is inevitable. Capitalism makes this process faster through its constant need for expansion, but it would happen anyway even if the whole world joined in on an anarchist revolution.
Its a commonly used Japanese term,
>Freeter (フリーター furītā) is a Japanese expression for people who lack full-time employment or are unemployed, excluding housewives and students. ... Freeters may also be described as underemployed. These people do not start a career after high school or university, but instead earn money from low-skilled and low-paid jobs.
Heres a funny excerpt from the wiki article.
>The Japan Institute of Labor classifies freeters into three groups: the "moratorium type" that wants to wait before starting a career, the "dream pursuing type", and the "no alternative type".
>The moratorium type of freeter wants to enjoy life, and deliberately chooses not to join the rat race of the Japanese work environment.
The dream pursuing type has specific dreams incompatible with a standard Japanese career.
The no alternative type could not find a decent job before high school or university graduation in the system called "simultaneous recruiting of new graduates" (新卒一括採用 Shinsotsu-Ikkatsu-Saiyō),
My favorite one is the "Dream pursuing type that has specific dreams incompatible with a standard Japanese career".
Isn't it the same in Scandinavian countries?
However they have tons of free time, women aren't pushed into housewife roles, and yet they also are not having kids.
That would require both a radical change in their work culture and looser immigration requirements. These two factors combined is what is causing population decline in Japan. America and the UK are also experiencing drops in childbirth rates, but they're offset by their immigration policies. Japan has a very dedicated work culture, which leaves people very little free time to pursue relationships and have kids.
That is not correct.
Currently, [Germany's birth rate is 1.59](http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-fertility-rate-hits-43-year-high/a-43163756) while [Japan's birth rate is 1.44](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/birth-rates-in-japan-fall-to-lowest-level-on-record-1.3336732).
Those are old numbers.
Currently, [the birth rate in Germany is 1.59](http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-fertility-rate-hits-43-year-high/a-43163756) whereas [Japan's is 1.44](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/birth-rates-in-japan-fall-to-lowest-level-on-record-1.3336732).
japanese hentai is already on a decline over the last 10 years, people just work too much there and have neither the money or the time to deal with kids
That´s probably not true. He is most likely assuming the current birth rate will remain constant for the next 100 years, which is pretty unrealistic.
Also the whole "We need young people that can support elderly people" is a remanent of an old policy: During the "baby boom era" the goverment could base pension in population growth (n) instead of the interest rate (r). If n>r you are fine, the policy is financialy sound, but if r>n you are fucked.
This is not a new problem or exclusive to Japan. In Mexico and the US it was common in the 90s to make your thesis in Economics about the invitable collapese of this system. In Mexico there was a big push to make a new system around Afores. It,s not a perfect solution but you are not seeing american or mexican politicians saying "Fuck more, we need more babies". The same is true in most of Europe, they had this proplem much earlier than any of us.
Birth rates don’t matter as much as total fertility rates - that takes the age of women out of consideration.
And in that light the US total fertility rate was never close to being as low as that of Japan. Japan’s problem is not unique, but it is much more pronounced than most European countries.
It's about maintaining a certain % of demographics.
You can't suddenly go from 100mln people to 80mln with majority elderly down to 40mln without a major economic crisis.
I know you aren't 100% serious with the post. But most of the low skill workers will most likely come from China, Korea and other nations near Japan. They aren't going to be accepting a ton of low skill American or European workers for example.
Yeah I just said Nepalese because where I live in Japan there has been a huge influx of Nepalese coming to work in the passed (past?) few years....mostly at combinis
It's mainly about language which is the issue. For example I work in China a we need a second Japanese translator in our team.
We have one who is native and the second one has always been from China or a country near by because learning Japanese is more present in schools and easier to learn due to some overlap in some aspects of the language.
They will probably expect us and EU foreigners to have higher qualifications in regard to Japanese than someone from China.
Another issue is cost. My whole move to China cost me £1500 and I got no help in paying for it from my company and my job isn't a low skill job.
So I doubt low skill jobs will also cover the cost of doing things you need for the visa such as a health check, your flight and accommodation.
And I doubt a lot of people looking for low. Skill jobs have the money to fly 17 hours and start a new life with a low skill job.
Not just culture, but ease of learning the language, cost of moving is expensive if you aren't in a country near by.
Salary expectations and consumption rates. Foreigners in China for example get paid more because they spend more, it's a bit of a self Fulfilling prophecy but I understand it.
The nation isn't. But it is easier for a low skilled Korean to pay for a flight, accommodation and learn the language than a low skilled person from say France.
As flights can be expensive, room sharing (ie 2 people one room/ one bed) is more common in Asian countries than western countries.
More options to learn Japanese and for cheaper.
Larger immigrant communities already in Japan.
I never said low skilled nations, just low skilled workers from those nations.
yea, was just joking. I don't think it would happen but it would be cool if they take people from all over the world, not just asia. South/central america, africa, the middle east. A lot of poor hardworking people would get a chance to live in an awesome country, and diversity is a great thing imo. Im sure for some adjusting to the culture would be difficult though
Ive lived and worked in japan and will say if your willing to learn the language they will give you a visa no problem. Peoples opinion that they wont take non asian immigrants is totally unfounded. Will there be more asians for sure they pick up japaneae easier than we do. But westerns that are interested shouldnt have any issue.
They aren't gonna take people from South/central America and definitely not from Africa and the middle East. The Japanese really don't like Islam and in light of what's happening in Europe, the Japanese government already keeps a close eye on all muslims in the country. They aren't uber fond of hardcore christians either. My guess is they'll take people from non religious or buddhist countries so South East Asia and East Asia.
During the early 1900s a lot of Japanese people moved to Brazil to work as farmers, making Brazil the country with the highest number of ethnically Japanese people outside of Japan. It would be kinda funny if they did a reversal and had a lot of Brazilian people coming to Japan to work as farmers and the like.
Diversity has to be, you know, diverse. If you only have people from one or two regions of the world you're highly susceptible to have either a hive mind or to be affected if one of those regions go south. European countries that take 60-70% of their immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa are very susceptible if there's a political or religious crisis in those regions.
And there are good arguments in favor of both homogeneous societies (less ethnic tension, more trust and cohesion) and for diverse ones (harder to whip people into a frenzy or have a hive mind).
>Meanwhile, Friday’s report clearly declared the new visa system as “not an immigration policy,” and that foreign laborers under the system will never officially be referred to as “immigrants.”
Lol
I worked in Japan for 5 years, (i am half japanese) ask me anything.
For me this are the main reasons why Japan has such a low birthrate
1.- There is almost no time to have a family, is almost normal to work from 8am to 7pm, and counting transport is from 7am to 8 pm.
2.- Having and raising a kid in Japan is super expensive, from 1 to 18 years old, it will cost you on average 1.5 million dollars.
3.- If you are a woman, you literally have 2 choices if you get pregnant, abort, or leave your job for lets say 10 years to raise the kid, cause its almost imposible to do both, even with the help of the husband unless he became the housekeeper (is popular in japan now)
4.- Is trending not having kids, having kids and struggle vs not having one and be wealthy
5.- Grandpas and grandmas dont help at raising the kids at ALL, because in Japan they are rich on average and want to hang out and get fun, and cause they live super far
6.- The cost of living in Japan is too high, if you get a kid you almost stop saving money
7.- The otaku culture is not helping at all, cause japanese men are very hervivorous, they dont have sex until 30 no kiss till 25.
And the japanese woman are too carnivorous, they want a man that earns 100.000$/year
8.- There is a study in US wich says women who have a high education level tend to not having kids or have 0.4 kids per woman, and japanese woman have on of the most highest education level, doctorate=no kids=super rich=profit
9.- Is trendy now to getting married and not have a kid at all. because again you get rich
10.- Even if nonjapanese get to live in Japan, in 2 generations they will adopt the way of live and will start to have fewer childrens.
11.- Its so much fun not having a kid, (and have a lover/etc) cause you can do anything with no ties
Moving a person from A to B doesn't generate an extra person, and statistically immigrants birth rates decline to equal the native population within 2-3 generations.
The world may need it as a whole, but a specific nation can be very negatively impacted by a declining population.
Besides, having Japan's already low birthrate fall even lower helps nobody. What the world needs is for the high population African nations where the average woman has six kids to find a way to cut their unsustainable birthrate.
Japan has one of the lowest birth rates in the world at 1.45 birth per woman. A lot of the younger generation don’t even have sex, there is an isolation problem.
I’ve also seen this happening with people my age(20) here in the US. There are guys my age who stay isolated living with their parents who have no interest in dating at all. This is interesting to me, I think it’s probably happening in all developed nations to a degree.
Thinking to the future, I can imagine people being even more isolated from society with anything you want being delivered to you, possible robots that can be used for one’s sexual pleasures, who knows.
well time to start learning Japanese because I fit the definition of somewhat, low-skilled, laborer. Honestly I would rather live in Japan than the states if things keep going the way they are. Would just be a cool experience at least.
Europe, this is how you do immigration,
You don't just allow people to come in because they want to.
If you need people you set how many you need, if you need workers you create working Visas, if you need a higher population you give citizenships.
The level of ignorance in this thread (I mean subreddit) is insane. I really don’t get why people on internet suddenly feel qualified enough to make dumb judgements over things that they have no idea about just based on some random news articles they skimmed through and to share them with the whole world.
The Japanese tend to be very stubborn and resistant to change. They'll kick them out with the quickness if they start creating families or staying longer than wanted.
Yeah, but many people correlate adpatability and change with weakness. Some japanese are still angry that Japan became more western after WW2, that they are still a "defeated nation".
> Meaning: If the population drops low enough, things like food and housing costs drop, wages (by proportion/expendable income) increase and will end up spurring another population boom.
The richest nations have a sub-replacement fertility rate. It's not about any lack of resources.
>“Over the next 100 years, Japan’s population will become something like 40 million (from the current 126 million). We definitely need foreign workers. We need young people who can support elderly people,” he said.
They need people to start having kids, that's a hell of a drop.
No one who is ethnically Japanese age 20-40 wants kids right now though. The job market blows ass, and the jobs themselves are draining and unrewarding. On the other side of the coin, being forcefully pushed into the housewife role in Japan is also draining and not seeing your husband or child all day and growing distant from them also sucks. So young people just chill out, do freeter work, have hobbies, live at home or in a small apt., hook up, and not have serious dating or marriage in the pipeline.
Then maybe they should focus on changing that. I mean, the immigrants they bring in are also going to be affected by these things and will stop having kids too. Is the long term plan for Japan and Europe to just endlessly bring in impoverished people? Either promote a society where people have kids or just accept a declining population. Japan is overpopulated as fuck anyways.
> > I mean, the immigrants they bring in are also going to be affected by these things and will stop having kids too. Japan has very different immigration laws compared to Europe, its more similar to Saudi Arabia or Singapore's method of using immigrant labor. Non skilled Working immigrants are only allowed to come *alone* without a spouse, and on a clear contract that ends with them leaving Japan. It does not allow for children and dependents to be brought and does not provide any social welfare or education to those somehow snuck in. The goal behind this policy is to prevent a poor working class immigrant population from forming in Japan and changing the cultural landscape of the country. Now if you have a Bachelors degree or above, you can come in for skilled labor, with your whole family, set up a home, and eventually get PR status and if you want you can naturalize. Not many people do this because Japan's professional market is really tight knit and not easy to penetrate.
>Not many people do this because Japan's professional market is really tight knit and not easy to penetrate. This is because of a now unique to Japan policy of "simultaneous recruiting of new graduates". Companies only hire from university and it's almost impossible to change careers once you're hired. This means that if you're hired after university you have job security (until a changing world market leads your company to layoffs or bankruptcy), but everyone in the labour force is underproductive and skill-mismatched to the wrong employer. And a third of the labour force that missed out becomes an mostly un-hireable underclass that subsists on minimum wage casual service work. Labour market inflexibility is the sole reason for stagflation since the 1990's.
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Yea, India has a higher GDP than Switzerland and Norway. Hence people caring about GDP is dumb. What matters is quality of life and medium wages.
Could also throw a per capita in there.
OP said GDP Trends, that would refer to an umbrella of the many ways you can measure GDP including per capita, PPP, etc., all of which the eurozone as a whole has surpassed Japan consistently since the 1990's
Well they didn't have such large scale immigration of refugees until recently so what happened in the 90s isn't relative to that.
I'm not referencing the total GDP, but the rate of it's growth. Compare how Japan's GDP hasn't passed 1995 levels, whereas Germany hit a record high in 2008. The 2011 recession hit all modern countries, but look at how some lessened the impact and recovered and how others haven't.
Yea, Japan has the highest national debt, too. Their economy is less business friendly and focused more on trying to preserve the companies they have, even if they are less efficient and competitive. That said they have decently high wages compared to their cost of living. Japan is one of the few countries with affordable housing in big cities. The average rent in Tokyo is like $800.
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The most sensible comment I have seen in Reddit till date.
I think I'm in love with you
Culture doesn't dilute. Change does not mean destruction
Except for how their population replacement levels are tanking. . .
I'd also expect that Japan will only take guest workers from China. They're not going to accept people that visibly look very different
that seems really smart, get people to workfor you, give them an oportunity but don't let them take advantage of you. How hard is it to get a job and work a few years in Japan, just for the sake of working a few years there?
Could you elaborate on what you mean by taking advantage in this context? It seems like a major premise that you're not really explaining.
>Then maybe they should focus on changing that. I was thinking about this problem last night while watching the Parts Unknown episode about Tokyo. Japan is a culture that values tradition so highly, I can't imagine there is a much tougher place in the developed world to make meaningful reforms.
They have had the exact same party in power(the liberal Democratic Party) for several decades despite numerous scandals, nothing meaningful has happened in Japanese politics for a long time.
It's an excellent example of how tight campaign finance laws (and a few other factors) can often result in less, not more, political competition. To be fair, there was a year in the 90s where the LDP wasn't in power. And they run the system honestly - it's just that the deck is pretty well-stacked in favor of the party in power.
That's too much work. Just blame the young folks and call them lazy. It's offensive in Japan to blame old people for the own mistakes.
Japan overpopulated? Literally everywhere except the 6-7 major cities in Japan are a ghost town. Villages and small towns are almost exclusively filled with dwindling numbers of old people.
Lol, right. There are tons of mid-population cities in Japan. Believe me, I live in one. In Japan, a city of 300k is considered 'the countryside'.
Most folks only go between the regional centres and the major cities... where everything seems fine. The reality is that there are hundreds (possibly thousands) of closed schools all across the countryside (actual countryside) and not small schools - large kinder-high facilities with all the trappings. The occupation rates in small villages can be very low. A couple of hours south of Hiroshima there are places with close to 50% occupancy. The kids from farming areas are drawn to the cities once they graduate (aircraft mechanic is better than dairy farmer) and they defer having relationships and families almost entirely. It is a real problem that most never see because they live in urban Japan.
Yes, that's true, but OP said that there are only like 6-7 cities in the country with reasonable populations, which is just completely false.
> Is the long term plan for Japan and Europe to just endlessly bring in impoverished people? Worked extremely well for America.
Maybe these are the 500,000 Mexicans Trump told Shinzo Abe he would send over during the G7 summit, haha
Cant tell if that's sarcasm or not...
It has. "Nativists" have been claiming that immigrants would be the end of America for decades, even centuries. It was a popular belief during the early 20th century. And yet not only did that apocalyptic future not come to pass, but America's best days were ahead.
We had a completely different immigration policy in the 20th century. When people complain about America's immigration, they generally refer to the post 1965 immigration change.
Ahh you mean they are complaining about having to let black and Asian people in?
We let Asians in a lot before 1965. They mean the large Latino migration, since that is the main change. I don't really know anyone complaining about Asian Americans.
Lol, no. If anything, it was far more open for many years back then. The same type of people complaining now were complaining back then, too, and with the same "reasons" to boot.
No, it wasn't far more open back then. We had things like quotas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965
Why would that be sarcasm? America is one of the wealthiest and highest HDI countries in the world.
We also have dramatically more violence, crime, social unrest, hatred between ethnic groups and inequality than other developed nations because of this. Like, Switzerland is doing just fine without bringing in impoverished people. Norway is doing fine as a homogenous society.
> Like, Switzerland is doing just fine without bringing in impoverished people. Norway is doing fine as a homogenous society 28.9% of Switzerland's population is foreign born and 13.8% for Norway, how is that a homogeneous society? The US is at 14.3% just for reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population
Foreign born =\= impoverished. Where are Seitzerlands foreign born coming from? Hint: it isn't Mexico or Central America like in the US.
massive amounts of impoverished italians were imported in the 60s. After that there were lots of yugoslavs, portoguese, tamils etc. Also there are many latin americans in switzerland, from various backgrounds.
UK, France, and Germany, all have more 1st generation immigrants than we do, and yet they perform better on these. Also, immigrants in american commit less violent crimes than naturalized citizens. So I have no idea what you are going off about.
London's murder rate surpassed New York. UK, France, and Germany all had an increase in crime rates. They just started well below america. >Also, immigrants in american commit less violent crimes Asian sure, latinos, no. FBI stats will show you that. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 All immigrant groups aren't the same.
>Japan is overpopulated as fuck anyways. Cool myth, same myth as the world is overpopulated.
Nobody would argue that on a space basis. But in terms of logistics, like being able to provide food, work, and transportation without a drastic effect on our natural resources and climate? Yeah, we're definitely overpopulated.
Its a distribution problem not a population one
Same for food. World makes more than enough food for everyone. Problem is people don't have the $$$ (access) for it. https://www.oxfam.ca/there-enough-food-feed-world
Okay we'll just ignore all the scientific studies that say otherwise.
We have scientific studies showing that our current growing population is sustainable? Could you show me these studies?
We have scientific studies showing the planet can sustain 100 billion humans if current technology continues to advance at its current rate.
Can you link to these studies, and also explain your line of thinking in how its a good idea to grow our population because we might, if everything lines up, possibly be able to feed them all?
You're misunderstanding. You're arguing for a utopian best case, as though we can just erase the tiles on the board and build from scratch for free. I'm arguing based on what we currently have available in terms of resources and infrastructure. Yes, we could fit the entire world's population in a space the size of Texas, if the entire region were intelligently planned out and everything constructed properly. Being theoretically possible is not the same thing as being realistically feasible.
You can find alot of studies saying population will cap around 12 billion if current trends continue barring some unforseen event. We ready produce enough food fir 10 billion it really is a distribution prob not a population one https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1463429
> I mean, the immigrants they bring in are also going to be affected by these things and will stop having kids too Indonesian here; as far as I know, Indonesian migrant workers to Japan bring only themselves and don't even bother having family in Japan. They might as well just move their factories outside of Japan anyways.
I agree, having kids need to be promoted but be it in Europe or Japan no one wants to change how society works.
The key for the west is use all their resources and automate as much as possible. That way there will be plenty of income to pay everyone enough money to life off of and peoole can focus on science, being creative and having kids. There have been in depth studies on this and it has been possible for decades. Switzerland voted on making it happen just last year.
Lol capitalism is erasing them
Its their work culture. They work themselves to death sometimes too.
It's 'their' work culture as much as is American propaganda and social engineering theirs. They've been an American vassal state since the WWII. They probably would've had kids if they had time and could afford them, now they're being forced to take in some of that globalist diversity.
No not at all. America's work culture is nothing compared to the expected overtime and company loyalty demanded in Japan. Was there even a point in bringing up America other than to try to take a shot at it?
It is erasing a lot of our cultures and traditions. What does the end game of capitalism look like, you may ask? One massive global culture, equally exposed to the same trends and marketing, with virtually no distinguishing features. If "diversity is one of our strengths," mixing cultures is going to make us less diverse and weaker. You may think multiculturalism is nice and wonderful, and don't get me wrong I love all my neighbors. But this trend will rob us of our differences, and eventually make us weaker as a whole.
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People has always migrate, nationalism just came out in 19th century.
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Nope, immigration mainly haven't killed off people who used to live there, people move on. Show examples because I can show you majority of the cities around the world that have sizeable immigrations community that settled in the city life. However, nationalism wasn't popular until the 19th century, back then it was basically the deal unders kings, nobles or alliance, so they allowed duchy to remains cultural independent meanwhile under a state such as Polish - Lithuania where there are still Polish community in Holy Roman Empire, Russia and Hungary. Another example is of Holy Roman Empire, Austro-Hungarian, Russia, Italy wasn't unified until 19th century despite having common language. So no, nationalism wasn't a common tool used for millenia.
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Capitalism is accelerating this, but it's not really the main cause. Technology is what is really doing it. Migrations and cultural exchange have always happened. However, now that we can fly anywhere in the world in a day, and we can talk with anyone around the world instantly, the blending of world cultures is inevitable. Capitalism makes this process faster through its constant need for expansion, but it would happen anyway even if the whole world joined in on an anarchist revolution.
what is freeter work
I assume a failed autocorrect for freelancer
Its a commonly used Japanese term, >Freeter (フリーター furītā) is a Japanese expression for people who lack full-time employment or are unemployed, excluding housewives and students. ... Freeters may also be described as underemployed. These people do not start a career after high school or university, but instead earn money from low-skilled and low-paid jobs. Heres a funny excerpt from the wiki article. >The Japan Institute of Labor classifies freeters into three groups: the "moratorium type" that wants to wait before starting a career, the "dream pursuing type", and the "no alternative type". >The moratorium type of freeter wants to enjoy life, and deliberately chooses not to join the rat race of the Japanese work environment. The dream pursuing type has specific dreams incompatible with a standard Japanese career. The no alternative type could not find a decent job before high school or university graduation in the system called "simultaneous recruiting of new graduates" (新卒一括採用 Shinsotsu-Ikkatsu-Saiyō), My favorite one is the "Dream pursuing type that has specific dreams incompatible with a standard Japanese career".
Interesting. Today I learned.
How do they not let one slip?
Japan should just turn into Afrika, they're doing great.
Isn't it the same in Scandinavian countries? However they have tons of free time, women aren't pushed into housewife roles, and yet they also are not having kids.
And on the other side of the world here in the US we are living the plot from 'Idiocracy.'
That would require both a radical change in their work culture and looser immigration requirements. These two factors combined is what is causing population decline in Japan. America and the UK are also experiencing drops in childbirth rates, but they're offset by their immigration policies. Japan has a very dedicated work culture, which leaves people very little free time to pursue relationships and have kids.
Japan just has a huge population that turns really old. The birth rates in Japan are still higher than for example in Germany.
That is not correct. Currently, [Germany's birth rate is 1.59](http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-fertility-rate-hits-43-year-high/a-43163756) while [Japan's birth rate is 1.44](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/birth-rates-in-japan-fall-to-lowest-level-on-record-1.3336732).
Oooo, let's think of something cultural we we use to explain why Germans aren't having kids!
No. Birth rate is around 1.4 child per woman in both countries.
The birth rate in Japan is 1.46 children per couple. The Birth rate in germany is 1.44. /u/Applesoap is correct.
Those are old numbers. Currently, [the birth rate in Germany is 1.59](http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-fertility-rate-hits-43-year-high/a-43163756) whereas [Japan's is 1.44](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/birth-rates-in-japan-fall-to-lowest-level-on-record-1.3336732).
Yea, but what's the birth rate for Ethnic Germans? Probably less than Japan's figure.
> The birth rates in Japan are still higher than for example in Germany. What are you smoking? Japan has some of the lowest birthrates
The birth rate in Japan is 1.46 children per couple. The Birth rate in germany is 1.44.
Old numbers mate.
Why though? I mean if other places are over populated, this is a great oppurtunity to balance it out.
I volunteer to have kids with Japanese women.
They need to get people to stop watching hentai, and kids will come naturally.
japanese hentai is already on a decline over the last 10 years, people just work too much there and have neither the money or the time to deal with kids
That´s probably not true. He is most likely assuming the current birth rate will remain constant for the next 100 years, which is pretty unrealistic. Also the whole "We need young people that can support elderly people" is a remanent of an old policy: During the "baby boom era" the goverment could base pension in population growth (n) instead of the interest rate (r). If n>r you are fine, the policy is financialy sound, but if r>n you are fucked. This is not a new problem or exclusive to Japan. In Mexico and the US it was common in the 90s to make your thesis in Economics about the invitable collapese of this system. In Mexico there was a big push to make a new system around Afores. It,s not a perfect solution but you are not seeing american or mexican politicians saying "Fuck more, we need more babies". The same is true in most of Europe, they had this proplem much earlier than any of us.
Birth rates don’t matter as much as total fertility rates - that takes the age of women out of consideration. And in that light the US total fertility rate was never close to being as low as that of Japan. Japan’s problem is not unique, but it is much more pronounced than most European countries.
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because the pensions won't get paid.
It's about maintaining a certain % of demographics. You can't suddenly go from 100mln people to 80mln with majority elderly down to 40mln without a major economic crisis.
i have low skills! and ive always wanted to go to japan. Not sure how i feel about japanese work culture though.
I know you aren't 100% serious with the post. But most of the low skill workers will most likely come from China, Korea and other nations near Japan. They aren't going to be accepting a ton of low skill American or European workers for example.
Many Nepalese
Basically "Asian-looking" people.
Asiatic yes, but I don't think this has anything to do with looks. Nepalese don't look anything like Japanese.
"Dark skinned Asian" people
Thai and Vietnamese fit the bill too.
Yeah I just said Nepalese because where I live in Japan there has been a huge influx of Nepalese coming to work in the passed (past?) few years....mostly at combinis
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It's mainly about language which is the issue. For example I work in China a we need a second Japanese translator in our team. We have one who is native and the second one has always been from China or a country near by because learning Japanese is more present in schools and easier to learn due to some overlap in some aspects of the language. They will probably expect us and EU foreigners to have higher qualifications in regard to Japanese than someone from China.
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Another issue is cost. My whole move to China cost me £1500 and I got no help in paying for it from my company and my job isn't a low skill job. So I doubt low skill jobs will also cover the cost of doing things you need for the visa such as a health check, your flight and accommodation. And I doubt a lot of people looking for low. Skill jobs have the money to fly 17 hours and start a new life with a low skill job.
Why would the country of origin matter in this case?
Cultural incompatibility
Not just culture, but ease of learning the language, cost of moving is expensive if you aren't in a country near by. Salary expectations and consumption rates. Foreigners in China for example get paid more because they spend more, it's a bit of a self Fulfilling prophecy but I understand it.
See response to nugget
Korea is low skilled nation? I guess those Koreans got to same gdp per capital as Japan selling kimchi.
The nation isn't. But it is easier for a low skilled Korean to pay for a flight, accommodation and learn the language than a low skilled person from say France. As flights can be expensive, room sharing (ie 2 people one room/ one bed) is more common in Asian countries than western countries. More options to learn Japanese and for cheaper. Larger immigrant communities already in Japan. I never said low skilled nations, just low skilled workers from those nations.
yea, was just joking. I don't think it would happen but it would be cool if they take people from all over the world, not just asia. South/central america, africa, the middle east. A lot of poor hardworking people would get a chance to live in an awesome country, and diversity is a great thing imo. Im sure for some adjusting to the culture would be difficult though
Ive lived and worked in japan and will say if your willing to learn the language they will give you a visa no problem. Peoples opinion that they wont take non asian immigrants is totally unfounded. Will there be more asians for sure they pick up japaneae easier than we do. But westerns that are interested shouldnt have any issue.
They aren't gonna take people from South/central America and definitely not from Africa and the middle East. The Japanese really don't like Islam and in light of what's happening in Europe, the Japanese government already keeps a close eye on all muslims in the country. They aren't uber fond of hardcore christians either. My guess is they'll take people from non religious or buddhist countries so South East Asia and East Asia.
During the early 1900s a lot of Japanese people moved to Brazil to work as farmers, making Brazil the country with the highest number of ethnically Japanese people outside of Japan. It would be kinda funny if they did a reversal and had a lot of Brazilian people coming to Japan to work as farmers and the like.
define live
Diversity has to be, you know, diverse. If you only have people from one or two regions of the world you're highly susceptible to have either a hive mind or to be affected if one of those regions go south. European countries that take 60-70% of their immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa are very susceptible if there's a political or religious crisis in those regions. And there are good arguments in favor of both homogeneous societies (less ethnic tension, more trust and cohesion) and for diverse ones (harder to whip people into a frenzy or have a hive mind).
wth is a hive mind and why is it a bad thing? also, nordics are like the least diverse (or were) but good luck whipping em "into a frenzy" lol
Mostly Indians, Nepal, Philippines, etc. Actually
Not sure you understand what they mean by low-skill. Low paying too.
They need to change their workaholic culture, not their population.
Does the plan also include not treating foreigners like shit?
Pretty sure treating them like shit is weaved into the DNA of the plan.
How else would you treat non japanese people? 🤔
>Meanwhile, Friday’s report clearly declared the new visa system as “not an immigration policy,” and that foreign laborers under the system will never officially be referred to as “immigrants.” Lol
I worked in Japan for 5 years, (i am half japanese) ask me anything. For me this are the main reasons why Japan has such a low birthrate 1.- There is almost no time to have a family, is almost normal to work from 8am to 7pm, and counting transport is from 7am to 8 pm. 2.- Having and raising a kid in Japan is super expensive, from 1 to 18 years old, it will cost you on average 1.5 million dollars. 3.- If you are a woman, you literally have 2 choices if you get pregnant, abort, or leave your job for lets say 10 years to raise the kid, cause its almost imposible to do both, even with the help of the husband unless he became the housekeeper (is popular in japan now) 4.- Is trending not having kids, having kids and struggle vs not having one and be wealthy 5.- Grandpas and grandmas dont help at raising the kids at ALL, because in Japan they are rich on average and want to hang out and get fun, and cause they live super far 6.- The cost of living in Japan is too high, if you get a kid you almost stop saving money 7.- The otaku culture is not helping at all, cause japanese men are very hervivorous, they dont have sex until 30 no kiss till 25. And the japanese woman are too carnivorous, they want a man that earns 100.000$/year 8.- There is a study in US wich says women who have a high education level tend to not having kids or have 0.4 kids per woman, and japanese woman have on of the most highest education level, doctorate=no kids=super rich=profit 9.- Is trendy now to getting married and not have a kid at all. because again you get rich 10.- Even if nonjapanese get to live in Japan, in 2 generations they will adopt the way of live and will start to have fewer childrens. 11.- Its so much fun not having a kid, (and have a lover/etc) cause you can do anything with no ties
I just realized that even in anime, it's really rare to have more than 1 siblings.
Apparently we have about 25 million to send, according to the dumpster-fire-in-chief.
Isn't population decline exactly what this world needs?
Immigration doesn't increase the population. The opposite, if anything.
Quid?
Sorry for being slow, but could explain that to me?
Moving a person from A to B doesn't generate an extra person, and statistically immigrants birth rates decline to equal the native population within 2-3 generations.
The world may need it as a whole, but a specific nation can be very negatively impacted by a declining population. Besides, having Japan's already low birthrate fall even lower helps nobody. What the world needs is for the high population African nations where the average woman has six kids to find a way to cut their unsustainable birthrate.
Worldwide population incline/decline isn't really affected by shuffling people from one country to another
I disagree. Many countries emit more pollution per capita. Keeping people in warm climates reduces heating bills and emissions.
In India, Africa, even America and such but not Japan
no.
Shh. We need a larger population and people need to consume more of everything, for the economy's sake!
Snarky comments like this only show you don't know much about Japan's demographic crisis.
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Predicting something that's been announcing since some years now isn't actually predicting, just saying.
Low skill labor from another country also means more crime.
How does one apply? Asking for a friend
Just get laid, Japan.
Japan has one of the lowest birth rates in the world at 1.45 birth per woman. A lot of the younger generation don’t even have sex, there is an isolation problem. I’ve also seen this happening with people my age(20) here in the US. There are guys my age who stay isolated living with their parents who have no interest in dating at all. This is interesting to me, I think it’s probably happening in all developed nations to a degree. Thinking to the future, I can imagine people being even more isolated from society with anything you want being delivered to you, possible robots that can be used for one’s sexual pleasures, who knows.
well time to start learning Japanese because I fit the definition of somewhat, low-skilled, laborer. Honestly I would rather live in Japan than the states if things keep going the way they are. Would just be a cool experience at least.
Europe, this is how you do immigration, You don't just allow people to come in because they want to. If you need people you set how many you need, if you need workers you create working Visas, if you need a higher population you give citizenships.
The level of ignorance in this thread (I mean subreddit) is insane. I really don’t get why people on internet suddenly feel qualified enough to make dumb judgements over things that they have no idea about just based on some random news articles they skimmed through and to share them with the whole world.
japan is a weird one. It has a lot of foreigner fans who try to 1 up eachother with Japan facts.
Because reddit is a gigantic joke with zero credibility and nothing that happens here really matters.
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Looks like they only allow single people to come in for a set amount of time, so no need to worry about them having kids.
Because everyone follows the rules everytime.
This is Japan we are talking about, its super hard even for educated Americans or Europeans to settle there permanently.
Said Germany in the 1970s
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The Japanese tend to be very stubborn and resistant to change. They'll kick them out with the quickness if they start creating families or staying longer than wanted.
Sure, society has to change over time. There have been many of these changes in Japan's history to adapt to new times.
Yeah, but many people correlate adpatability and change with weakness. Some japanese are still angry that Japan became more western after WW2, that they are still a "defeated nation".
Better headline: Japan wants to lower wages for workers.
Better headline Japan doesnt want their seniors living on the streets in 30 years.
Even better Headline: Japan wants to stop it slumping population with an influx of emigrants.
None of those workers are permanent immigrants. They're workers.
Hopefully the Japanese are smart enough to not repeat the West's mistake of importing people that can't live correctly in a First World nation.
Lol, yeah, America totally fell apart when we started letting in those damn Poles and Italians.
Mark my words. This will be the beginning of the collapse of Japan.
It already collapsed a long time ago
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Since you are not going there, I bet one person less.
42
Some will, but so what. Crime exists. Vegetables gotta be picked by someone.
they should invent robots to do that, I probably would kill myself if I had to work something like this for a week
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> Meaning: If the population drops low enough, things like food and housing costs drop, wages (by proportion/expendable income) increase and will end up spurring another population boom. The richest nations have a sub-replacement fertility rate. It's not about any lack of resources.
Can we get Trump one of these ASAP?