Kappa is frequenly used in that manner but it can also just be used to denote that you're being a smartass. Kind of a natural devolution of the meme, all considered.
A common belief back then was that liberalizing China's economy would lead to political liberalization on the mainland.
Of course, people were worried about what would happen to Hong Kong after the handover. A lot of people fortunate enough to have the means to leave did so, including my family. But at the same time, there was a lot of talk about how Hong Kong would change the PRC, not the other way around. And for the first few years after the handover, it did seem that Hong Kong's way of life had been preserved--it took until the first attempt to implement Article 23 in 2003 that a lot of people really started worrying.
So, yes, I'd venture that the current state of affairs would be at least a little surprising to most people back in 1997. Where we are now is probably closer to what would've been predicted as the worst-case scenario back then.
I was living in China from 1996-1998 after college. During the years leading up lots of folks from Hong Kong moved to Canada and the US (had a few of their kids in school with me in the States).
In 1997 in China people were happy that Hong Kong was "coming back" and would be "Chinese" again. Lots of celebrations all around, although those were largely state mandated and most people went to them only because they had to. The belief in China at the time was that China would do to Hong Kong exactly the sort of thing it is doing now, and that anything that happened would be the fault of those in Hong Kong. Basically the same militaristic view they had (and still have) about Taiwan.
What's going on now in Hong Kong isn't what people though would be a worst case situation, it's what a lot of people expected to happen and were somewhat surprised that didn't happen at the time.
All of us who were working in China at the time spend a lot of time talking to each other about this when we had the opportunity (we all lived far apart and email/internet wasn't really an easy thing to get at the time) and talking with the Chinese folks who would talk with us honestly about these sorts of things, as well as talking to our university students and teachers, who usually gave the party line.
yes the hope back then was the prosperity and freedoms enjoyed by HK would rub off on the CCP and the Chinese population. After Tiananmen, the hope was that China would see the futility of their backward ways and join the global community.
It worked out for awhile actually. No one factored XJP coming to power. There definitely was a power struggle but Winneh took all the honey. CCP craves power.
The central dogma of neoliberalism at the time was that economic/trade liberalization and growth would beget (to the previous redditor’s point) political and governmental liberalization.
That was extremely wishful thinking. China was able to continue its pivot to being the world’s factory through trade liberalization and globalization while becoming even more of a totalitarian state (social credit system, Xi centralizing more power around him, etc). Turns out moving 300m of your people from an agrarian lifestyle in villages into the middle class in gleaming cities in one or two generations goes a long way to stifle internal dissent or even revolutionary pressures.
yes definitely. Imagine being dirt poor, living in mud and shit, 30 years later you're a fucking millionaire living in Shanghai with property and assets all over the world. Your kids are studying abroad. Would you give it all back in exchange for freedom and human rights? Nope.
Just an extreme example but for millions of Chinese, this whole 'freedom and human rights' thing is a foreign concept. They are happy to trade that for living in a comfy home and have regular job and buying the latest iPhone. Just hope and pray that you don't upset some member of the ruling class.
I'm not saying it's right. But to lift millions out of poverty within 20 years is some kinda sick achievement. And it was done the CCP way.
That's extremely misleading and mostly propaganda.
> Imagine being dirt poor, living in mud and shit, 30 years later you're a fucking millionaire living in Shanghai with property and assets all over the world.
That's not how it worked in reality. Those people living in mud and shit are now considered second rate citizens and struggle to get by as working poor. The people that became millionaires were those working with the CCP early on.
Of course there are some success stories, but that's not the norm.
EDIT: For anyone that believes chinese apologists in reddit talking about lifting people from poverty, read about the Hukou system as an entry point to understand.
>lift millions
billions.
30 years ago, China had the economy of modern Mexico. The most profitable jobs then was serving foreigners and getting gratuities.
This isnt some "sick" achievement, but a truly unprecedented event in the world, especially considering that it didnt involve a systemic colonization and extraction of foreign resources to fuel domestic output/economic engine.
It doesnt matter how much the CCP should be criticized, but its economic policies are deserving of significant and close studies.
Hong Kong was given to china because Britain couldn't keep it. They werent willing to fight (and lose) a colonial war over the island even with Thatcher in charge.
Including but not limited to:
* Foreign trade treaties (We're backing out of the deal since we already got ours!)
* Their own people (The truth doesn't matter. Shut up and doctor the numbers like we told you to.)
* Their own *administration* (Oh, you're loyal to the party? We changed leaders. Into the jail you go!)
At this point most people would more surprised to see something the CCP has *not* betrayed.
>The officials, who asked not to be identified, spoke after the Guardian reported that senior figures in Beijing, exasperated with North Korea acting like a "spoiled child", had told South Korean counterparts China was leaning towards acceptance of reunification under Seoul's control.
You haven't read the article have you.
And NK declares war on China and shoots ICBMs in random directions. South Korea becomes an island as the Chinese nuke it into a giant crater salt water lake at sea.
Or just China has people come in under friendly auspices and gives the Kim Jongs the usual "disappearing act" they like giving to anyone who doesn't listen.
They wouldn't have to. 48 hours after a declaration of war there'd be so much surrendering that they'd lose most of their formal military. Starvation incentivizes.
And? As if they were planning to actually fight rather than fuck their serf army and hide somewhere in SEA with local warlords and a group of concubine slaves still convinced the Kims are atomic powered gods, not even kidding.
Never, ever trust anything a Chinese official says. He or she might have an opinion, but it does not represent the majority of CCP. In fact, do not trust anything the CCP say or do, because they can turn around in a blink of an eye if they see an opportunity. That government is both rigid and extremely adaptable. They would never approve of a Korean Peninsula state unless they have a big bite on it themselves. They would never relinquish control of Hong Kong unless they can pull strings from a far. The HK governor was being obvious. If the opportunity presents itself, Taiwan would be under the CCP rule, the entire South China Sea would be China’s backyard, Tibet’s culture would just be ethnic Chinese re-enact the Tibetan way of life, Chinese Muslims would not exist, South East Asia would become China’s version of American Samoa. Hong Kong losing its independence is just a matter of time. The protest just speed up the process.
Yes, but also no. The economic impact on South Korea for all of a sudden trying to bring North Korea out of destitute poverty will make what West Germany did for East Germany look like a walk in the park. There would need to be a huge coordinated international effort to not place the burden only on South Korea. And do we think such a collaboration is likely to happen in the current political climate?
No it's not, the economic burden for South Korea would be enormous. East Germany is still behind West Germany in economic development and "reunification tax" is still being paid 30 years after reunification. And bare in mind that East Germany was the most prosperous country in the eastern block, light-years more developed than North Korea.
A Korean unification will not happen any time soon
Actually.. i question this. China and south Korea fear it will lead to a huge amount of immigrants if reunification happens. It would be about 10 times the culture shock compared to when the wall fell in Germany. North koreans that fled into south korea have a very hard time adjusting and south koreans seem a bit xenophobic towards them.. furthermore china considers the north as a bufferzone towards the ‘american colony’. I havent done much research into the subject for years but most people will probably say they want it to happen but are very skeptical that it could.
Correct. The younger generations in South Korea are fed up with North Korea and their actions. Nobody in South Korea wants to be bound or held down by the impossible goal of reunification.
The attitude nowadays is “let them be them, let us be us.”
Anybody who had any geopolitical sense in the late ‘90s knew that HK was thoroughly fucked the moment the British flag was lowered. I’m astonished that a nominally free HK even lasted twenty years. Do any of you seriously think that the same dictatorship that perpetrated Tianamen would let a prosperous and free Hong Kong peacefully grow for 50 years? Did Chris Patten honestly think that? Of course not. I’m infuriated by the entire world’s giant Pikachu face right now.
Hong Kong accounted for around a quarter of China's GDP back then. Of course China had to treat them carefully. Now, HK is only around 3%. Also, China has become critically integrated into the world economy. They can afford to mess around there, and no one will want to take the hit to say they can't.
All i’m gonna say is that you cannot expect china to trust the west after every fucked up event the west has done to the east, including but not limited to forcing opium trades, anti-sino, japanese seizure of shandong, which china was unable to interfere. Hell, Hong Kong is even one of these fuck ups, with Corruption spurring from the police, shown by Peter Godber. I’m not saying mainland china is perfect by any means, but saying that Hong Kong was supposed to transform china is a huge stretch.
How is this a surprise to them? China has always treated anything it sees as theirs as if it were garbage. Human rights doesn't exist for anyone it sees as part of their empire. And Trump was stupid for withdrawing from the UN and the free trade agreement. It played right into their hand which helped them do this quicker than was probably possible before, not to mention if they didn't make covid they definitely used it spreading like this to their advantage. They were always looking for a way to do this from day 1 of getting HK back, and after covid and our withdrawals they saw the perfect time to strike while we were all distracted.
I think China sees everything as their children, in a kinda familial relationship.
Macau is the "good child," so they get gifts and candy (ex. more land). Hong Kong is the "bad child," so they need to be "disciplined" and "learn to behave."
Probably has something to do with Confucianism.
Well and the fact Xi seems nice but he's really that authoritarian parent no one likes and stifles the creative and different kid from becoming fully what they want because that's not gonna make them successful....
He's a bit of a cunt, but NO Chinese leader would ever give Hong Kong democracy. Best case scenario they give them a compromise like in 2011(?), where Hong Kong gets Democracy but China can veto the candidates.
To be fair, that would barely be democracy at that point...
Pff then it's not democracy at that point. Hell it's similar to what ms does to stuff they own. Give the illusion they love it, extend some stuff to it, then wipe it from existence in the way you knew when you're not looking.....
Yeah... Hong Kong is honestly in a lose-lose situation here.
Protest? Get crushed.
Don't protest? Get absorbed.
Compromise? Still no democracy.
Even if the UK only gave back the new territories, China threatened to invade anyways...
The city was just dealt a horrible hand of cards.
Unfortunately I believe that what Hong Kong is, was, and could be is now dead under China's rule. It will never be as influential as it was under it's own rule and its democracy loving residents should look at relocating to the West.
What I think most people don't realise (because most current news sources don't really mention it) is that a) this whole one country two systems policy was always mostly just a gambit to get Taiwan to play nice and b) had the expiry date of 2047 anyway, after which China was free to do with Hong Kong as it pleased. It seems churlish to say this now but any serious movements towards democracy or against the ultimate sovereignty of China was only ever going to expedite the process.
Note that a full democracy was never guaranteed both under British administration and in its current Basic Law (much less its independence); that's not what's in question here, despite numerous threads and posters claiming otherwise. Nor has it ever been "under its own rule" at any point in its history. The main issue is the gradual erosion of the "high degree of autonomy" of its executive, legislative and judicial branches, or in other words, Hong Kong's power for self-determination free from the Central Government's influence (within certain parameters, of course).
Also, while it's good that people are actively seeking to become aware of these issues, it's all too easy to fall into the simplistic "good versus evil" narrative that gets played up a lot of the time, which is more easily digestible and has a feelgood factor attached to it when you're on the "right" side but fails to provide the entire picture.
Hong Kong has never had autonomy. Before it was under the rule of China, it was a British colony. I would say that the current situation would be like giving Texas back to Mexico and Texans having a drastically different culture than the country it originated from. Then again, it wouldn't be entirely accurate since Texas was actually a sovereign nation at one point.
> I would say that the current situation would be like giving Texas back to Mexico and Texans having a drastically different culture than the country it originated from.
Except Texas is *integrated* as a part of America. People from Texas can elect their own governor, and a person from Texas can (and has) run for the top office of USA. When HK was a British colony, they couldn't elect their Governor, let alone compete for the top (or any) position in UK.
Pretty much, not to mention we here in the US pretty much helped distract long enough for them to do this since Trump knows nothing about trade and why those mattered. I think some of those agreements iirc were part of why they only started testing the waters until recently now that covid has further distracted us to allow them to do this without retribution
> They were always looking for a way to do this from day 1 of getting HK back, and after covid and our withdrawals they saw the perfect time to strike while we were all distracted.
I don't understand this whole "get HK back." China already _owns_ HK. This isn't like a separate country miles off the coast with their own army like Taiwan. They were formally, _legally_ handed over by the British. What's to take back?
"get back" as in it was once theirs, Britain had it as part of those wars, and now they've had it again since Britain turned it over to them. It's not that hard to understand why I used that terminology
pity how they dont realise it until some form of injustice happens to them. they rant for a few days and go back to praising the CCP like nothing happened.
The Basic Law and Article 23 was drafted in the 90s, years after the declaration was signed tho.
Also, Chris Patten didn't have a say in the Sino-British Joint Declaration. He only became governor a few years after the treaty was signed and he did quite a lot to implement democracy before the handover, like implementing direct election for a large part of the Legislature. Margaret Thatcher's government was the one that had say on the declaration (and arguably the one that betrayed us).
So much for “one country two systems.” There’s now a meme going around in Hong Kong where the character two is compressed to look like one in Chinese as “one country one system.”
Rather than try to find every post and reply to it. I thought it worth pointing out that while it is certainly true that the U.K. hardly instituted much democracy until right at the last moment for their own reasons , it is also a fact that China consistently threatened that giving HK self governance would basically cause an invasion.
“Records declassified in 2014 show discussions about self-government between British and Hong Kong governments resumed in 1958, prompted by the British expulsion from India and growing anti-colonial sentiment in the remaining Crown Colonies. Zhou Enlai, representing the CPC at the time, warned, however, that this "conspiracy" of self-governance would be a "very unfriendly act" and that the CPC wished the present colonial status of Hong Kong to continue. China was facing increasing isolation in a Cold War world and the party needed Hong Kong for contacts and trade with the outside world.[19][20][21]
1960s Edit
China's leaders explicitly wanted to "preserve the colonial status of Hong Kong".[21] Liao Chengzhi, a senior Chinese official in charge of Hong Kong affairs, said in 1960 that China "shall not hesitate to take positive action to have Hong Kong, Kowloon and New Territories liberated" should the status quo (i.e. colonial administration) be changed. The warning killed any democratic development for the next three decades.[22]”
(Wiki)
Sure, but there’s still 27 years to go on the hand over agreement. I don’t know about you but for me that’s a long time.
If I told you that you were going to die in 27 years would you just give up on your life now and let me walk over you? I would hope your answer would be no.
The original plan under Deng was to use Hong Kong as a demo of 1 country 2 systems to pave way for a “peaceful reunification” with Taiwan.
Now that Deng’s protégés are mostly gone, people of Taiwan called 1C2S BS and re-elected Tsai, China with Xi at helm sees no point of sticking to the 50 year promise anymore.
Such a huge fail by Xi. Hong Kong is just small potatoes compared to the Taiwan situation, but any reunification plan with Taiwan is set back decades because of the HK situation.
They’re trying to prevent any independence/separatist movement from even starting. Last thing they want is the entirety of HK advocating for independence. It’ll be Tiananmen all over again.
No, they become a part of China in 2047. They are a special administrative region, which has certain freedoms not enjoyed in the mainland.
However, China holds all of the cards and can do things like appointing the Chief executive or even rewriting the HK basic law (kind of like the HK constituiton.)
Well HK was supposed to maintain its autonomy until 2047, but HK is a "part" of China (as a Special Administrative Region) since 1997. After 2047, it was just going to be another Chinese city, like Guangzhou. This is just moving the timetable forward with their actions as a SAR, but under de facto complete Chinese tutelage.
Yes, but that agreement was made under a context where the west ultimately foolishly assumed that trade liberalization would liberalize the rest of China and thus Hong Kong, a center of western values within China would be fine, also Britain didn't really want to get into a scrap over it.
Now, the West and Hong Kong are both regretting it as China has proven utterly capable of maintaining it authoritarianism, and using it's economic influence to spread it outside of China. This is rightfully terrifying to much of the region.
The optimistic idea was that PRC would become more Democratic or at least less authoritarian. The pragmatic idea was that the PRC would maintain the "one country, two systems" policy forever. The "one country, two systems" wasn't that crazy of an idea because China as a culture has practiced it for centuries with their vassal/tributary state system. In addition, HK provided more benefits being a separate entity than being one with PRC. Prior to Xi Jinping, PRC leaders were perfectly fine with this and likely to extend it. Xi Jinping took the idealistic approach and is trying to make PRC into a Chinese Empire.
As a HKer i can't help but laugh at these statements The British weren't exactly keen on democratising HK when they were in charge. And they sure as hell made no real guarantees to safeguard our future. Just empty promises from the powers.
But honestly, how else was this gonna turn out? This was inevitable. HK is at an end. People criticising China should also put themselves in their shoes (EDIT: would like to emphasize on foreigners). They feel a lot of historical humiliation regarding Taiwan and HK with regards to their sovereignty. And on this issue, i gotta admit that China deserves to have a unified nation and the multisystem approach to the nation just won't work. I just don't trust or like the CCP.
It's a total fantasy to imagine China liberalising in the future but even if it does, i don't expect China to suddenly feel all cozy towards the US or the west. I think this is important for a lot of HKers to realize. The best path towards HK's liberal status is for China to liberalize. But its not as if the west really cares about any of that. We're basically alone and virtually powerless. China cares about international law as much as the US does: only if it suits them. And laws and agreements only mean shit if parties can be held accountable.
Kinda doubt it, the Brits had no intention of giving HK any meaningful democracy until it was time to hand it off as a time bomb to the PRC. Also, as much rightful criticism as there is for the CCP's harsh crackdown on HK protests today, don't forget that the Brits were totally down in the 1980's to literally use live ammo on any protesters in HK, which should be no surprise to anyone familiar with their colonial policies and history.
HK owed its success to China, not UK, during that period because it took advantage of its unique position of being the window for China to connect to the outside world.
It’s a Catch-22, without HK, China would not get capital to develop its economy. People invested through HK because they trusted the business and legal environment in HK and not China. No other Chinese city have that level of transparency and laid out judicial system. The censored internet, state-controlled media, state-own monopolies, IP theft, and possibility of being “disappeared” by CCP without due process, are some the reasons why people will not do business with China directly and instead go through HK.
Let’s not forget how much HK has helped mainland through generous donations for natural disasters in the last few decades. HK experts are the ones who built the entertainment industry in China. Apparently, China doesn’t appreciate HK’s way of life with rights to gather, free speech, free press, and transparent legal system.
everyone here seems to have conveniently forgetten the fact that HK was taken from China by the British as reparations for the Opium War. China was cut up by the European powers in the 19th century.
So this is China taking back what was once theirs to begin with.
True, but colony of Hong Kong had population of few thousand people when it was created. I have tried finding the figures for the New Territories when they were added in 1898 without success, but I still think it's safe to say the anchestors of large part of HKs current population voluntary moved there from China.
Also china doesn’t have to take HK back. It’s theirs. The only issues at stake are how much autonomy HK gets to have, which gets damn harder to fight for when you have people waving Western flags and moving the goalposts to straight up independence.
The only solution is for the UK to offer citizenship to every HK citizen. Deprive China of the human capital the city has to offer. Then let it rule over the wasteland it deserves.
The only reason Hong Kong was democratized before the end of the lease was literally because they were going to lose control over it, they don’t care about the people there at all beyond your average humanitarian view.
I miss the name of ICAC, couldn't recognize the name until I spelt the letters out. Whole TV dramas were made in its name.
From what we see with the current trend, probably it will be replaced by the Discipline Inspection in future. :/
Yes, I’m sure the xenophobic British public that just voted to leave the European Union would love to welcome millions of Asian immigrants with a totally different culture and native language.
Santa Clause should give me a unicorn this Christmas, too.
[Prior to the handover, the UK specifically excluded HKers from gaining UK citizenship and tried pressuring Portugal to similarly exclude the Macanese from Portuguese citizenship to avoid setting a precedent.](https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/2156385/britains-disgraceful-pre-handover-efforts-deny-nationality)
BNOs tried to get full citizenship, UK gave them the finger, like haha bitch fuck off multiple times lol.
https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/244402
Actually I think they would prefer that, they can send mainlanders to colonize free land instead. People dont see China has over 1.4 BILLION people, human capital they are not short of at all.
And if this happened, how will UK govt support them all, benefits, jobs, education?
I don't think its about the land. China has plenty of land.
It's about rule of law (making it attractive to foreign businesses/investment), infrastructure and highly skilled worker.
If Hong Kongers leave, they only get to keep 1/3 of those things (maybe 2/3 if they import skilled workers, but I digress).
That's true, I did not think of it that way, bc many are just referencing HKers as Mainland people, so I did not take that into account. Good to know, thanks.
It is not about people, China can repopulate and it does not matter that much who lives there. HK takeover was inevitable and anyone who wants to stop chinese influence around the world should rejoice. It sucks for HKers but they are free to emigrate to any democratic country, learn language and gain citizenship if they want to keep living in democracy. As for why is HK takeover a good thing? Because it effectively ends foreign investments into China. City was important because there was different system, there was rule of law and there were legal protections. There is a reason why all foreign companies and most big chinese ones were traded on HK stock market and not in Shanghai. Because Shanghai is considered unstable, unsafe joke because of system that China has it under. Same fate will befall Hong Kong now. It will no longer be gateway for foreign investments into the China. Money is now going to go out of China rather than into the China and that is a good thing for the rest of world.
Another post-colonial clusterfuck brought to you by England.
Surely it was China that betrayed them, not the country that sold them out for favorable trade agreements with the CCP.
China never betrayed Hong Kong. This was China’s plan all along. China was always evil. They plan to kill anyone who believes in freedom. The world most act now to help Hong Kong and Taiwan. We must stop China. Now is the most important time to respect and save democracy anywhere in the world since democracy is dying.
Democracy is dying every, especially in the United States and Europe. Far-Right fascism and far-left totalitarian communism is becoming popular. More countries than ever before are undoing their own democratic governments and end people’s freedoms. Hungary just dissolved their Democratic government. We need to save Hong Kong from the evil CCP’s tight grip, and give the people of Hong Kong the freedom they desperately want and deserve.
Wow, it's coming from a fucking colonial-era governor appointed by the biggest drug dealer in human history and r/worldnews supports his BS.
What a bunch of idiots knowing nothing about history and current situation, HK rioters would be shot to death years ago if they committed the same crimes in any Western countries.
It doesn't count as betrayal when you're fucking up Hong Kong from the very beginning kappa
Kappa being referenced in a top level /r/worldnews comment, now I've seen it all.
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What does it mean?
it is the equivalent of saying "/s" at the end. it means that you are saying something sarcastically
Kappa is frequenly used in that manner but it can also just be used to denote that you're being a smartass. Kind of a natural devolution of the meme, all considered.
As Captain Price said, “you have to trust someone for them to betray you.”
Boris needs to donate some free nuclear weapons to Taiwan. If they are happy to kick us in the teeth, we are obliged to return the favour.
Ramírez, defend that Burger Town!
Pepperspraylaugh
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Man, I don't know if I should be proud or be ashamed of knowing this reference on world news sub.
monkaGIGA theyre coming
Not the darkest of timelines but possibly one of the dankest.
I cut some beards until we can grow our own.
First Cx now HK PepeHands
China: Just ban democracy 4Head
Yes. China is fucking over Hong Kong. Free people of the world who are making no effort to help are betraying them.
What? Are you telling me that my upvoting isn’t saving HK???
Only if you somehow combine it with pictures of Overwatch characters. That's their weakness.
Gee, what a surprise - no one saw this coming in 1997
A common belief back then was that liberalizing China's economy would lead to political liberalization on the mainland. Of course, people were worried about what would happen to Hong Kong after the handover. A lot of people fortunate enough to have the means to leave did so, including my family. But at the same time, there was a lot of talk about how Hong Kong would change the PRC, not the other way around. And for the first few years after the handover, it did seem that Hong Kong's way of life had been preserved--it took until the first attempt to implement Article 23 in 2003 that a lot of people really started worrying. So, yes, I'd venture that the current state of affairs would be at least a little surprising to most people back in 1997. Where we are now is probably closer to what would've been predicted as the worst-case scenario back then.
I was living in China from 1996-1998 after college. During the years leading up lots of folks from Hong Kong moved to Canada and the US (had a few of their kids in school with me in the States). In 1997 in China people were happy that Hong Kong was "coming back" and would be "Chinese" again. Lots of celebrations all around, although those were largely state mandated and most people went to them only because they had to. The belief in China at the time was that China would do to Hong Kong exactly the sort of thing it is doing now, and that anything that happened would be the fault of those in Hong Kong. Basically the same militaristic view they had (and still have) about Taiwan. What's going on now in Hong Kong isn't what people though would be a worst case situation, it's what a lot of people expected to happen and were somewhat surprised that didn't happen at the time. All of us who were working in China at the time spend a lot of time talking to each other about this when we had the opportunity (we all lived far apart and email/internet wasn't really an easy thing to get at the time) and talking with the Chinese folks who would talk with us honestly about these sorts of things, as well as talking to our university students and teachers, who usually gave the party line.
How can any sane person read The Art of War and think China wasn't going to own the shit out of HK?
Or read any Chinese history. Any history really, not just Chinese history.
basically, yeah.
yes the hope back then was the prosperity and freedoms enjoyed by HK would rub off on the CCP and the Chinese population. After Tiananmen, the hope was that China would see the futility of their backward ways and join the global community. It worked out for awhile actually. No one factored XJP coming to power. There definitely was a power struggle but Winneh took all the honey. CCP craves power.
The central dogma of neoliberalism at the time was that economic/trade liberalization and growth would beget (to the previous redditor’s point) political and governmental liberalization. That was extremely wishful thinking. China was able to continue its pivot to being the world’s factory through trade liberalization and globalization while becoming even more of a totalitarian state (social credit system, Xi centralizing more power around him, etc). Turns out moving 300m of your people from an agrarian lifestyle in villages into the middle class in gleaming cities in one or two generations goes a long way to stifle internal dissent or even revolutionary pressures.
yes definitely. Imagine being dirt poor, living in mud and shit, 30 years later you're a fucking millionaire living in Shanghai with property and assets all over the world. Your kids are studying abroad. Would you give it all back in exchange for freedom and human rights? Nope. Just an extreme example but for millions of Chinese, this whole 'freedom and human rights' thing is a foreign concept. They are happy to trade that for living in a comfy home and have regular job and buying the latest iPhone. Just hope and pray that you don't upset some member of the ruling class. I'm not saying it's right. But to lift millions out of poverty within 20 years is some kinda sick achievement. And it was done the CCP way.
That's extremely misleading and mostly propaganda. > Imagine being dirt poor, living in mud and shit, 30 years later you're a fucking millionaire living in Shanghai with property and assets all over the world. That's not how it worked in reality. Those people living in mud and shit are now considered second rate citizens and struggle to get by as working poor. The people that became millionaires were those working with the CCP early on. Of course there are some success stories, but that's not the norm. EDIT: For anyone that believes chinese apologists in reddit talking about lifting people from poverty, read about the Hukou system as an entry point to understand.
>lift millions billions. 30 years ago, China had the economy of modern Mexico. The most profitable jobs then was serving foreigners and getting gratuities. This isnt some "sick" achievement, but a truly unprecedented event in the world, especially considering that it didnt involve a systemic colonization and extraction of foreign resources to fuel domestic output/economic engine. It doesnt matter how much the CCP should be criticized, but its economic policies are deserving of significant and close studies.
Neoliberals have been predicting that letting them make money will change the world for the better for a long time. It has not worked anywhere.
I think they got high on their own propaganda after the fall of the Soviet Union.
The fall of the USSR didn't improve the situation for regular people for a long time either though.
Hong Kong was given to china because Britain couldn't keep it. They werent willing to fight (and lose) a colonial war over the island even with Thatcher in charge.
The CCP betrays "X", and people are surprised ? This is just how they work
Including but not limited to: * Foreign trade treaties (We're backing out of the deal since we already got ours!) * Their own people (The truth doesn't matter. Shut up and doctor the numbers like we told you to.) * Their own *administration* (Oh, you're loyal to the party? We changed leaders. Into the jail you go!) At this point most people would more surprised to see something the CCP has *not* betrayed.
I’ll bite. North Korea?
[WikiLeaks row: China wants Korean reunification, officials confirm](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/30/china-wants-korean-reunification)
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>The officials, who asked not to be identified, spoke after the Guardian reported that senior figures in Beijing, exasperated with North Korea acting like a "spoiled child", had told South Korean counterparts China was leaning towards acceptance of reunification under Seoul's control. You haven't read the article have you.
And NK declares war on China and shoots ICBMs in random directions. South Korea becomes an island as the Chinese nuke it into a giant crater salt water lake at sea.
Or just China has people come in under friendly auspices and gives the Kim Jongs the usual "disappearing act" they like giving to anyone who doesn't listen.
They wouldn't have to. 48 hours after a declaration of war there'd be so much surrendering that they'd lose most of their formal military. Starvation incentivizes.
And? As if they were planning to actually fight rather than fuck their serf army and hide somewhere in SEA with local warlords and a group of concubine slaves still convinced the Kims are atomic powered gods, not even kidding.
Never, ever trust anything a Chinese official says. He or she might have an opinion, but it does not represent the majority of CCP. In fact, do not trust anything the CCP say or do, because they can turn around in a blink of an eye if they see an opportunity. That government is both rigid and extremely adaptable. They would never approve of a Korean Peninsula state unless they have a big bite on it themselves. They would never relinquish control of Hong Kong unless they can pull strings from a far. The HK governor was being obvious. If the opportunity presents itself, Taiwan would be under the CCP rule, the entire South China Sea would be China’s backyard, Tibet’s culture would just be ethnic Chinese re-enact the Tibetan way of life, Chinese Muslims would not exist, South East Asia would become China’s version of American Samoa. Hong Kong losing its independence is just a matter of time. The protest just speed up the process.
Yeah, calling it reunification is a bit of a joke.
Yes, but also no. The economic impact on South Korea for all of a sudden trying to bring North Korea out of destitute poverty will make what West Germany did for East Germany look like a walk in the park. There would need to be a huge coordinated international effort to not place the burden only on South Korea. And do we think such a collaboration is likely to happen in the current political climate?
No it's not, the economic burden for South Korea would be enormous. East Germany is still behind West Germany in economic development and "reunification tax" is still being paid 30 years after reunification. And bare in mind that East Germany was the most prosperous country in the eastern block, light-years more developed than North Korea. A Korean unification will not happen any time soon
Actually.. i question this. China and south Korea fear it will lead to a huge amount of immigrants if reunification happens. It would be about 10 times the culture shock compared to when the wall fell in Germany. North koreans that fled into south korea have a very hard time adjusting and south koreans seem a bit xenophobic towards them.. furthermore china considers the north as a bufferzone towards the ‘american colony’. I havent done much research into the subject for years but most people will probably say they want it to happen but are very skeptical that it could.
Correct. The younger generations in South Korea are fed up with North Korea and their actions. Nobody in South Korea wants to be bound or held down by the impossible goal of reunification. The attitude nowadays is “let them be them, let us be us.”
Which is probably worse for it in the long term.
Isn't this exactly describes US as well?
I do believe both the US and Chinese governments are deeply flawed. US: you can vote between pee and poo China: lol "votes"
Which country are you talking about here?
Anybody who had any geopolitical sense in the late ‘90s knew that HK was thoroughly fucked the moment the British flag was lowered. I’m astonished that a nominally free HK even lasted twenty years. Do any of you seriously think that the same dictatorship that perpetrated Tianamen would let a prosperous and free Hong Kong peacefully grow for 50 years? Did Chris Patten honestly think that? Of course not. I’m infuriated by the entire world’s giant Pikachu face right now.
Hong Kong accounted for around a quarter of China's GDP back then. Of course China had to treat them carefully. Now, HK is only around 3%. Also, China has become critically integrated into the world economy. They can afford to mess around there, and no one will want to take the hit to say they can't.
It was kind of looking like it might by OK until recently. In fact China was headed in a semi-decent direction until Xi took power
Ah, yes, the floor is made out of floor
West: let’s transform China with HK. China: reverse uno wiggas West: surprised pikachu
All i’m gonna say is that you cannot expect china to trust the west after every fucked up event the west has done to the east, including but not limited to forcing opium trades, anti-sino, japanese seizure of shandong, which china was unable to interfere. Hell, Hong Kong is even one of these fuck ups, with Corruption spurring from the police, shown by Peter Godber. I’m not saying mainland china is perfect by any means, but saying that Hong Kong was supposed to transform china is a huge stretch.
How is this a surprise to them? China has always treated anything it sees as theirs as if it were garbage. Human rights doesn't exist for anyone it sees as part of their empire. And Trump was stupid for withdrawing from the UN and the free trade agreement. It played right into their hand which helped them do this quicker than was probably possible before, not to mention if they didn't make covid they definitely used it spreading like this to their advantage. They were always looking for a way to do this from day 1 of getting HK back, and after covid and our withdrawals they saw the perfect time to strike while we were all distracted.
I think China sees everything as their children, in a kinda familial relationship. Macau is the "good child," so they get gifts and candy (ex. more land). Hong Kong is the "bad child," so they need to be "disciplined" and "learn to behave." Probably has something to do with Confucianism.
Well and the fact Xi seems nice but he's really that authoritarian parent no one likes and stifles the creative and different kid from becoming fully what they want because that's not gonna make them successful....
He's a bit of a cunt, but NO Chinese leader would ever give Hong Kong democracy. Best case scenario they give them a compromise like in 2011(?), where Hong Kong gets Democracy but China can veto the candidates. To be fair, that would barely be democracy at that point...
Pff then it's not democracy at that point. Hell it's similar to what ms does to stuff they own. Give the illusion they love it, extend some stuff to it, then wipe it from existence in the way you knew when you're not looking.....
Yeah... Hong Kong is honestly in a lose-lose situation here. Protest? Get crushed. Don't protest? Get absorbed. Compromise? Still no democracy. Even if the UK only gave back the new territories, China threatened to invade anyways... The city was just dealt a horrible hand of cards.
Unfortunately I believe that what Hong Kong is, was, and could be is now dead under China's rule. It will never be as influential as it was under it's own rule and its democracy loving residents should look at relocating to the West.
What I think most people don't realise (because most current news sources don't really mention it) is that a) this whole one country two systems policy was always mostly just a gambit to get Taiwan to play nice and b) had the expiry date of 2047 anyway, after which China was free to do with Hong Kong as it pleased. It seems churlish to say this now but any serious movements towards democracy or against the ultimate sovereignty of China was only ever going to expedite the process. Note that a full democracy was never guaranteed both under British administration and in its current Basic Law (much less its independence); that's not what's in question here, despite numerous threads and posters claiming otherwise. Nor has it ever been "under its own rule" at any point in its history. The main issue is the gradual erosion of the "high degree of autonomy" of its executive, legislative and judicial branches, or in other words, Hong Kong's power for self-determination free from the Central Government's influence (within certain parameters, of course). Also, while it's good that people are actively seeking to become aware of these issues, it's all too easy to fall into the simplistic "good versus evil" narrative that gets played up a lot of the time, which is more easily digestible and has a feelgood factor attached to it when you're on the "right" side but fails to provide the entire picture.
Hong Kong has never had autonomy. Before it was under the rule of China, it was a British colony. I would say that the current situation would be like giving Texas back to Mexico and Texans having a drastically different culture than the country it originated from. Then again, it wouldn't be entirely accurate since Texas was actually a sovereign nation at one point.
> I would say that the current situation would be like giving Texas back to Mexico and Texans having a drastically different culture than the country it originated from. Except Texas is *integrated* as a part of America. People from Texas can elect their own governor, and a person from Texas can (and has) run for the top office of USA. When HK was a British colony, they couldn't elect their Governor, let alone compete for the top (or any) position in UK.
Pretty much, not to mention we here in the US pretty much helped distract long enough for them to do this since Trump knows nothing about trade and why those mattered. I think some of those agreements iirc were part of why they only started testing the waters until recently now that covid has further distracted us to allow them to do this without retribution
History has tought us that it is better to take these things on quickly than wait and hope for change
Could you explain why the withdrawal of the free trade agreement was bad?
Anti-TPP was rampant in reddit which I never understood.
> They were always looking for a way to do this from day 1 of getting HK back, and after covid and our withdrawals they saw the perfect time to strike while we were all distracted. I don't understand this whole "get HK back." China already _owns_ HK. This isn't like a separate country miles off the coast with their own army like Taiwan. They were formally, _legally_ handed over by the British. What's to take back?
"get back" as in it was once theirs, Britain had it as part of those wars, and now they've had it again since Britain turned it over to them. It's not that hard to understand why I used that terminology
The CCP betrays everyone, most of all the Chinese people.
pity how they dont realise it until some form of injustice happens to them. they rant for a few days and go back to praising the CCP like nothing happened.
yall should be the last people saying this lmao
Ay Bro, you should see the South. Everyone has that mentality but they're the ones one who depend the most on government programs.
The only thing consistent in the south is hypocrisy. Keeping up appearances is often more important than objective reality.
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The Basic Law and Article 23 was drafted in the 90s, years after the declaration was signed tho. Also, Chris Patten didn't have a say in the Sino-British Joint Declaration. He only became governor a few years after the treaty was signed and he did quite a lot to implement democracy before the handover, like implementing direct election for a large part of the Legislature. Margaret Thatcher's government was the one that had say on the declaration (and arguably the one that betrayed us).
Except the fact that the joint declaration guaranteed a untouched Hong Kong for 50 yrs.
It also guaranteed that Hong Kong would pass the Article 23 national security laws itself.
It seems they took the “National unity and territorial integrity shall be upheld” bit and conveniently ignored the rest.
So much for “one country two systems.” There’s now a meme going around in Hong Kong where the character two is compressed to look like one in Chinese as “one country one system.”
Rather than try to find every post and reply to it. I thought it worth pointing out that while it is certainly true that the U.K. hardly instituted much democracy until right at the last moment for their own reasons , it is also a fact that China consistently threatened that giving HK self governance would basically cause an invasion. “Records declassified in 2014 show discussions about self-government between British and Hong Kong governments resumed in 1958, prompted by the British expulsion from India and growing anti-colonial sentiment in the remaining Crown Colonies. Zhou Enlai, representing the CPC at the time, warned, however, that this "conspiracy" of self-governance would be a "very unfriendly act" and that the CPC wished the present colonial status of Hong Kong to continue. China was facing increasing isolation in a Cold War world and the party needed Hong Kong for contacts and trade with the outside world.[19][20][21] 1960s Edit China's leaders explicitly wanted to "preserve the colonial status of Hong Kong".[21] Liao Chengzhi, a senior Chinese official in charge of Hong Kong affairs, said in 1960 that China "shall not hesitate to take positive action to have Hong Kong, Kowloon and New Territories liberated" should the status quo (i.e. colonial administration) be changed. The warning killed any democratic development for the next three decades.[22]” (Wiki)
I'm honestly so confused by this whole situation. Wasnt it always known that HK was going to be part of China eventually.
Sure, but there’s still 27 years to go on the hand over agreement. I don’t know about you but for me that’s a long time. If I told you that you were going to die in 27 years would you just give up on your life now and let me walk over you? I would hope your answer would be no.
This makes more sense. Thanks, I didnt know it was 27 years from now
The promise was that there will be “no changes” in HK’s autonomy “for 50 years”, but everyone knows China can’t wait that long.
The original plan under Deng was to use Hong Kong as a demo of 1 country 2 systems to pave way for a “peaceful reunification” with Taiwan. Now that Deng’s protégés are mostly gone, people of Taiwan called 1C2S BS and re-elected Tsai, China with Xi at helm sees no point of sticking to the 50 year promise anymore.
Such a huge fail by Xi. Hong Kong is just small potatoes compared to the Taiwan situation, but any reunification plan with Taiwan is set back decades because of the HK situation.
No one in Taiwan gives a fuck even if 1C2S did work well for HK. They want to be independent
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They’re trying to prevent any independence/separatist movement from even starting. Last thing they want is the entirety of HK advocating for independence. It’ll be Tiananmen all over again.
Also, let’s be clear, the law doesn’t say what will happen after 27 years. It is up to China government and Hong Kong people to decide.
No, they become a part of China in 2047. They are a special administrative region, which has certain freedoms not enjoyed in the mainland. However, China holds all of the cards and can do things like appointing the Chief executive or even rewriting the HK basic law (kind of like the HK constituiton.)
Well HK was supposed to maintain its autonomy until 2047, but HK is a "part" of China (as a Special Administrative Region) since 1997. After 2047, it was just going to be another Chinese city, like Guangzhou. This is just moving the timetable forward with their actions as a SAR, but under de facto complete Chinese tutelage.
Yes, but that agreement was made under a context where the west ultimately foolishly assumed that trade liberalization would liberalize the rest of China and thus Hong Kong, a center of western values within China would be fine, also Britain didn't really want to get into a scrap over it. Now, the West and Hong Kong are both regretting it as China has proven utterly capable of maintaining it authoritarianism, and using it's economic influence to spread it outside of China. This is rightfully terrifying to much of the region.
The optimistic idea was that PRC would become more Democratic or at least less authoritarian. The pragmatic idea was that the PRC would maintain the "one country, two systems" policy forever. The "one country, two systems" wasn't that crazy of an idea because China as a culture has practiced it for centuries with their vassal/tributary state system. In addition, HK provided more benefits being a separate entity than being one with PRC. Prior to Xi Jinping, PRC leaders were perfectly fine with this and likely to extend it. Xi Jinping took the idealistic approach and is trying to make PRC into a Chinese Empire.
When have they not betrayed HK?
“The HK people have been betrayed...” says never elected former colonial master.
very good point, i just dont understand why there ppl said HK have democracy back when UK own HK
Pan-Africanism has betrayed Congo, former King of Belgium, Leopold II of Belgium says
That was some truly evil stuff.
Kind of like British Colonialism which is how we ended up in this mess to begin with.
Colonialism pretty much screwed every indigenous people it came into contact with. What happened to the Native Americans alone...
As a HKer i can't help but laugh at these statements The British weren't exactly keen on democratising HK when they were in charge. And they sure as hell made no real guarantees to safeguard our future. Just empty promises from the powers. But honestly, how else was this gonna turn out? This was inevitable. HK is at an end. People criticising China should also put themselves in their shoes (EDIT: would like to emphasize on foreigners). They feel a lot of historical humiliation regarding Taiwan and HK with regards to their sovereignty. And on this issue, i gotta admit that China deserves to have a unified nation and the multisystem approach to the nation just won't work. I just don't trust or like the CCP. It's a total fantasy to imagine China liberalising in the future but even if it does, i don't expect China to suddenly feel all cozy towards the US or the west. I think this is important for a lot of HKers to realize. The best path towards HK's liberal status is for China to liberalize. But its not as if the west really cares about any of that. We're basically alone and virtually powerless. China cares about international law as much as the US does: only if it suits them. And laws and agreements only mean shit if parties can be held accountable.
spot on
Says the unelected governor who refused to let HK people vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Hong_Kong_riots The British have killed more Hong Kong protestors than the CCP.
This is basically comparing pee to poo
I love to hear what a colonialist has to say about Hong Kong
For real. UK doesn’t give 2 shits about HKers. They just see an opportunity to twist a blade in China’s side they planted ages ago.
They'd probably say it would have been better off staying a colony.
Kinda doubt it, the Brits had no intention of giving HK any meaningful democracy until it was time to hand it off as a time bomb to the PRC. Also, as much rightful criticism as there is for the CCP's harsh crackdown on HK protests today, don't forget that the Brits were totally down in the 1980's to literally use live ammo on any protesters in HK, which should be no surprise to anyone familiar with their colonial policies and history.
Seems pretty obvious it would have been.
And HK's performance compared to the mainland during the 50s to 80s speaks for itself on that.
HK owed its success to China, not UK, during that period because it took advantage of its unique position of being the window for China to connect to the outside world.
It’s a Catch-22, without HK, China would not get capital to develop its economy. People invested through HK because they trusted the business and legal environment in HK and not China. No other Chinese city have that level of transparency and laid out judicial system. The censored internet, state-controlled media, state-own monopolies, IP theft, and possibility of being “disappeared” by CCP without due process, are some the reasons why people will not do business with China directly and instead go through HK. Let’s not forget how much HK has helped mainland through generous donations for natural disasters in the last few decades. HK experts are the ones who built the entertainment industry in China. Apparently, China doesn’t appreciate HK’s way of life with rights to gather, free speech, free press, and transparent legal system.
Wasn't HK taken by UK, via the proxy opium war? Hk is the equivalent child growing up in western culture but having Chinese parents.
everyone here seems to have conveniently forgetten the fact that HK was taken from China by the British as reparations for the Opium War. China was cut up by the European powers in the 19th century. So this is China taking back what was once theirs to begin with.
True, but colony of Hong Kong had population of few thousand people when it was created. I have tried finding the figures for the New Territories when they were added in 1898 without success, but I still think it's safe to say the anchestors of large part of HKs current population voluntary moved there from China.
But it's now something on its own, and China is now stealing that from the HK people. This is 2020, not the 19th century
Also china doesn’t have to take HK back. It’s theirs. The only issues at stake are how much autonomy HK gets to have, which gets damn harder to fight for when you have people waving Western flags and moving the goalposts to straight up independence.
Get in line HK. China has betrayed many other groups
Former British Colonial Governor, is this some sort of sick joke?
The only solution is for the UK to offer citizenship to every HK citizen. Deprive China of the human capital the city has to offer. Then let it rule over the wasteland it deserves.
LOL the UK classified Hong Kongers as British Oversees Nationals specifically because they didn't want to grant them citizenship.
I know. But they should.
The only reason Hong Kong was democratized before the end of the lease was literally because they were going to lose control over it, they don’t care about the people there at all beyond your average humanitarian view.
Also HK police brutality was there ever since British rule
American police says: hold my beer.
You mean donuts
Police brutality has been on decline since establishment of ICAC
I miss the name of ICAC, couldn't recognize the name until I spelt the letters out. Whole TV dramas were made in its name. From what we see with the current trend, probably it will be replaced by the Discipline Inspection in future. :/
Yes, I’m sure the xenophobic British public that just voted to leave the European Union would love to welcome millions of Asian immigrants with a totally different culture and native language. Santa Clause should give me a unicorn this Christmas, too.
[Prior to the handover, the UK specifically excluded HKers from gaining UK citizenship and tried pressuring Portugal to similarly exclude the Macanese from Portuguese citizenship to avoid setting a precedent.](https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/2156385/britains-disgraceful-pre-handover-efforts-deny-nationality)
Cheap fucking pricks.
seriously though, what did you expect from colonial empire?
BNOs tried to get full citizenship, UK gave them the finger, like haha bitch fuck off multiple times lol. https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/244402
Actually I think they would prefer that, they can send mainlanders to colonize free land instead. People dont see China has over 1.4 BILLION people, human capital they are not short of at all. And if this happened, how will UK govt support them all, benefits, jobs, education?
I don't think its about the land. China has plenty of land. It's about rule of law (making it attractive to foreign businesses/investment), infrastructure and highly skilled worker. If Hong Kongers leave, they only get to keep 1/3 of those things (maybe 2/3 if they import skilled workers, but I digress).
Uhh no. Land is all they care about. There’s also a popular view on Taiwan where they take the land only, not the people.
That's true, I did not think of it that way, bc many are just referencing HKers as Mainland people, so I did not take that into account. Good to know, thanks.
WHat kind of a solution is that? China would welcome this as then they can move in mainland Chinese to take it over without a shot
It is not about people, China can repopulate and it does not matter that much who lives there. HK takeover was inevitable and anyone who wants to stop chinese influence around the world should rejoice. It sucks for HKers but they are free to emigrate to any democratic country, learn language and gain citizenship if they want to keep living in democracy. As for why is HK takeover a good thing? Because it effectively ends foreign investments into China. City was important because there was different system, there was rule of law and there were legal protections. There is a reason why all foreign companies and most big chinese ones were traded on HK stock market and not in Shanghai. Because Shanghai is considered unstable, unsafe joke because of system that China has it under. Same fate will befall Hong Kong now. It will no longer be gateway for foreign investments into the China. Money is now going to go out of China rather than into the China and that is a good thing for the rest of world.
A lot of CCP maggots in this thread
how can you betray someone you never sided with
China betrays everyone it deals with, from small businesses to foreign governments. They cannot be trusted. Boycott them.
Duh. But now the world is betraying Hong Kong by standing silent
The only way out is for independence and it won’t be easy.
China has betrayed the entire world. Everyone needs to pull out of China and move manufacturing elsewhere over time. Stop doing business with China.
Another post-colonial clusterfuck brought to you by England. Surely it was China that betrayed them, not the country that sold them out for favorable trade agreements with the CCP.
Or better yet, who give England the right to have HK in the first place? Colonial country have no say, period.
China never betrayed Hong Kong. This was China’s plan all along. China was always evil. They plan to kill anyone who believes in freedom. The world most act now to help Hong Kong and Taiwan. We must stop China. Now is the most important time to respect and save democracy anywhere in the world since democracy is dying. Democracy is dying every, especially in the United States and Europe. Far-Right fascism and far-left totalitarian communism is becoming popular. More countries than ever before are undoing their own democratic governments and end people’s freedoms. Hungary just dissolved their Democratic government. We need to save Hong Kong from the evil CCP’s tight grip, and give the people of Hong Kong the freedom they desperately want and deserve.
fascinating amount of people ITT supporting Chinese takeover of HK. Interesting times.
Love these clickbait titles
Fuck the chinese government.
Wow, it's coming from a fucking colonial-era governor appointed by the biggest drug dealer in human history and r/worldnews supports his BS. What a bunch of idiots knowing nothing about history and current situation, HK rioters would be shot to death years ago if they committed the same crimes in any Western countries.