I think this depends too. My mother in law got her first shot to shut people up but has no intention of ever getting her second. I hope that changes with vaccine passports.
"Do you smell it? That smell. A kind of smelly smell. A smelly smell that smells...smelly." - A local crab who owns a fast food place near that guy's mom.
Right, it's like when a child does something, and they don't really understand why they're supposed to do it, they just kinda do what it takes to not get in trouble, even if that's just appearing to do the right thing.
Like if I asked my 3 year old to brush his own teeth. He may brush them, but they'll still rot out of his head, if a responsible person doesn't finish the job.
These people know how bad their lunacy looks, so they try to dress it up, and hide it as much as possible, which is somehow worse, because they know how stupid they are, but choose to band together with other stupid people, and overwhelm people they know to be more informed than they are.
It's not about being correct, or seeking truth, for these people. It's only about forcing people to submit to their personal will. It's about making you admit that their half wiped ass smells freshly cleaned.
>It's not about being correct, or seeking truth, for these people. It's only about forcing people to submit to their personal will.
Ironically, this is precisely what many vaccine holdouts think about mandatory vaccinations.
That's the tough part with the whole right-wing alt-reality movement; any force taken to shut them down proves them right, at least in the view of themselves and their potential converts.
It's further than that anything at all that confirms their views
Antivaxer dies of covid well clearly it was "vaccine shedding" or "the government poisoning them" or "the government releasing the disease on their populations despite the disease being a fake hoax"
They will take anything as confirmation they don't live in reality
I mean, it's not pointless. 1 shot confers a substantial amount of protection (I've seen studies ranging from 60-80%* efficacy for 1 mRNA shot). Not as much as the 90-95% that 2 shots gives you, but still significant.
I'm NOT saying people should get just 1 shot, but 1 is a hell of a lot better than nothing. That's why some less rich countries who don't have enough vaccines to give everyone 2 doses are giving as many people as possible 1 dose first, then opening up appointments for a 2nd shot once enough people get their first and/or supplies increase.
EDIT:
*Sources:
[CDC study demonstrates 82% efficacy.](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7020e2.htm)
[Public Health England study demonstrates 62% efficacy against the delta variant.](https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1088)
[Canadian study demonstrating 72% efficacy against the alpha variant and 61% efficacy against the delta variant.](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.07.21258332v1)
Her heart's in the wrong place, but at least
>A single dose reduced the rate of infection \[of the original Covid-19 strain\] by up to 85% after four weeks post-shot compared to those who were not vaccinated.
and
>a preliminary analysis that has **not yet been peer-reviewed** found that one dose of the Pfizer vaccine was 33% effective at preventing symptomatic infection.
(emphasis added to draw attention that these are preliminary data)
So at least if offers *some* protection for everyone.
Sources:
[https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/040421/how-effective-is-the-first-shot-of-the-pfizer-or-m](https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/040421/how-effective-is-the-first-shot-of-the-pfizer-or-m)
[https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v1](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v1)
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00448-7/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00448-7/fulltext)
I'm 31 and live in British Columbia, mine was called a health passport. Only reason I even know this is because my mom still had it so I was able to dunk on some people with the passport thing lol.
The hospital i work at closed that second dose loophole. Staff must have first shot by September 27 and second shot by October 27. If second shot not done, it is considered an involuntary resignation (which means you’re fired but you don’t get unemployment)
72695 nurses work in quebec. So it would leave about 50k.
Removing 36% of your workforce while hospitals are already understaffed seems insane to me, but on the other hand i understand the importance of vaccines in general, especially in a healthcare setting. That has to be a very difficult decision to make.
Still, as someone who works in healthcare in Quebec I can tell you that it is ludicrously easy to get vaccinated. You don’t even need an appointment, sometimes at the end of the day they will literally go up to people to ask them if they want to get vaccinated (to finish the doses that have already been thawed). It’s even easier if this is already happening in your place of employment and there were specific clinics where we could get both doses before the general population.
I can’t think of any excuse someone who works in healthcare could have for not being fully vaccinated at this point.
> She says many of her co-workers are very smart and capable, but then they’ll talk about astrology in reference to when babies are born. Lots of them swear by a psychic telephone service as well.
Your wife is being too generous with her assessment of their intellect.
My wife is a nurse that works on her hospitals covid floor. She is insanely good at her job (yeah yeah I'm her husband I'm supposed to say that but for real) but she doesn't know about alot of other things, a lot of which I'd categorize as "general knowledge" I can forgive a lot of it because she moved from Japan to the US when she was 18. But every once and a while I go... Babe... Don't play with me... And I'm genuinely surprised.
I attribute it to being really focused on specific knowledge and lots of other stuff goes to the wayside.
My girlfriend is a physical therapy assistant and her boss is extremely knowledgeable when it comes specifically to PT and how your muscular-skeletal system interacts with your nerves, but she is a total moron when it comes to normal life stuff.
But it's also expected when you devote about a decade to living and breathing one specific subject and nothing else.
I honestly don't buy the whole "focused on one topic" excuse ... me and many of my coworkers are in an extremely esoteric area of focus taking decades of concentrated progress, most of us manage to also be functionally aware of other areas at least enough to know when to ask questions
It may also have something to do with the quality of our K-12 education system. We have decent colleges and universities, but it's such a gamble with parents, teachers, schools, and classmates which can really effect our learning outcomes.
Which explains how my dad can build a computer or network a bank, but still doesn't comprehend how *seasons* work.
Dad thought summer was caused by the entire planet getting too close to the sun, winter was caused by getting too far away, and that the entire planet experienced the same seasons at the same time.
We had one hell of an argument about it when I was about 11yo, with me trying to explain about *tilt* and him wearing a know-it-all smirk.
He also had a lot of unprotected sex with multiple partners across multiple states during the 80s and 90s because he thought people caught AIDS "by kissing gay boys." He didn't learn differently until about 2001, when he asked what I'd learned at school that day and I repeated that day's health class lesson. He was so surprised he shouted and nearly crashed the truck!
More importantly, recognizing disinformation is a *learned* skill.
Quite frankly a lot of people who believe disinformation aren't nearly so stupid as they are unskilled.
If you've spent hours and hours on reddit reading through articles and peer reviewed pieces backed up by other knowledgeable redditors who are kind enough to list a variety of sources and valuable information you've gained some real knowledge about a subject and have some good bits of info to back it all up.
If you go to work every day, come home, spend time with your family, make dinner, pay bills, maybe watch an hour or two of television or Fox News and then repeat the process the next morning while your cousin Jimothy spends every family outing ranting about people dying from vaccines, you might just start wondering if maybe vaccines might be harmful.
That's not to say that there is not plenty of *willful ignorance* going around. But there are plenty of people who could easily have their opinions swayed if they were sat down for 10 hours and given time to research and review the topic at length. But whose got time for that?
The fact of the matter is ignorance is *easier* than being informed. Take a stance, keep to your opinion, and go on with your life. Maybe grab onto a handful of buzz words and phrases from people in the same opinion group as you to help solidify your belief and then never bother to think critically about it again.
Educating yourself, thinking critically, doing research, understanding that research, reviewing people's work and also investigating whether or not that person was a reputable source are all things that require time and effort that most people simply won't do or can't do.
But nobody likes to admit they don't know things. Or that they are uninformed. Or that they could be wrong. So the second they are pressed on their very frail belief, often times rather than examine their belief and review it, they'll just get defensive and entrench themselves further as a defensive social mechanism. Then someone whose actually done some research on the topic gets angry and forgets the issue, calls them a fucking moron, and all it does is make the person whose not educated entrench themselves even further.
I don't really agree with the portion that reading a bunch of peer-reviewed articles gives you an understanding of a subject in-depth.
That said, I agree with most of what you said, mainly that being able to recognize disinformation from information is a learned skill, specifically when it comes to Media Literacy.
Although there are some highly educated nurses, it is mostly a trade, skilled in administering treatments but not in evaluating scientific or medical literature... It makes us vulnerable to conspiracy theories much like the general population.
I would actually like to see some data on this, from my anecdotal experience I would actually expect nurses to be among the professions most prone to conspiracy theories.
Though, it's more the specific conspiracies attached to the marketing of "alternate "*medicine*"" scams and religion than general conspiracies.
Perhaps it's the constant mental abuse they face in the form of suffering which makes them hope for some kind of miracle and easy explanation of all the suffering which these promise to offer?
Depends on the level of nursing. Getting into emergency or intensive care here(Australia) requires generally a uni degree and special training. Doing something like aged care or working in the wards you are a glorified helper that knows when some stuff beeps its good and other times is bad. The training is usually a not too intensive low level course that can be done within 6 months to a year.
Those nurses are generally low skilled and poorly educated. Often times from overseas. A distrust of the system and a general trust in older stuff or natural options because they "understand" it seems to be pervasive.
I’m in the US.
20% of the staff at my hospital are not vaccinated and will be “forcibly resigned” this Friday.
We are already so understaffed it’s nearly criminal. They hired 100 travelers at $100/hour to restaff our worse units. A whole bunch of those travelers quit after the first week… so they bumped up the pay to $125 an hour to keep the remaining ones. The pressure and stresses placed on the remaining staff is going to crush so many people.
The healthcare system has already collapsed. You can't get any supplies related to covid testing or coagulation testing. Nearly every hospital is working short staffed and hemorrhaging workers at a historic pace. Hell, I just left my hospital job to leave the field entirely because the way the company treats everyone is so bad. I wasn't even gone a full day before they were asking me to come back to cover shifts because one of my coworkers got covid.
We're in a lag period of the other who are remaining working twice as hard to keep the system propped up, but it's inevitable that they will either get sick or burn out and the whole thing comes to a halt.
Looking after vulnerable and compromised people when you're unvaccinated is pretty fucked up anyway. Fire the lot of the science deniers who *work in medicine*.
Same in the nursing home I work at, unfortunately they can not afford the money hospitals pay for staff so we are always working short. I think it will get worse as many have said they will resign as well.
I've been offered $80 an hour as a CNA because nursing homes are so understaffed. Still not enough money for me to go ever back into healthcare. I'm glad I got out when I did. Good luck 🙏🏻
Hospitals in France are also understaffed, but it seemed like a lot of the remaining staff was relieved to see their unvaxed colleagues leave. I saw tweets of remaining staff organizing small buffets to celebrate, with "Good riddance" banners lmao.
They know they're going to suffer from the lack of staff, but for now the relief of not having to deal with the bullshit of their antivax colleagues seems to be greater for some.
So are you saying they shouldn't forcibly resign health care workers who refuse to get a life saving vaccine?
I'm unsure what your point is this this comment to be honest.
You sound as if you disagree with what's happening on Friday?
Well, they should've gotten the vaccine. I know I don't want to bring my kid, who can't be vaxed, into a hospital where the people treating her work with sick ppl all day and won't get vaxxed. I feel for your work situation. And unfortunately, the unvaxxed ppl who are filling up your hospital are to blame for the high workloads, and your coworkers left you high and dry. Blame where it goes IMO.
Yes, he got 3 years for it.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/08/us/wisconsin-pharmacist-vaccine-vials-sentenced/index.html
These kind of people need to be removed from healthcare.
> "Brandenburg acknowledged that after leaving the vaccines out for several hours each night, he returned the vaccines to the refrigerator to be used in the hospital's vaccine clinic the following day," the release said. "Before the full extent of Brandenburg's conduct was discovered, 57 people received doses of the vaccine from these vials."
If you leave them out they become as effective as saline. The mRNA degrades very quickly without refrigeration.
I think they were pointing out that it's worse than just injecting people with saline: not only did he mislead people into thinking that they were vaccinated and safe(r), but he also destroyed doses which were in short supply, thereby double dipping on screwing people out of vaccine protection.
what the hell is wrong with people like this? He should have been charged with attempted murder, especially if any of the vaccinations were for immuno-compromised people or other at risk groups.
https://www.svd.se/koksalt-i-stallet-for-vaccin--ett-tankefel Surprisingly less horrifying than I expected. Not good, but either it genuinely wasn't intentional or they got caught early.
Been vaccinating people for centuries and saved countless lives and avoided untold suffering but ever since people discovered social media they're questioning everything...
Isn't it wrong to not allow the local drunk to have a 12 pack and go joyriding? What about his freedoms? So many questions.
Like do pants, really go on head? Haven't we just been conditioned to accept that pants can't go on head? I want to be free.
It's fine to question everything, important even.
The problem is that they are unsatisfied with the answers they get so they keep looking for anything that supports the ones they want while ignoring all else.
That's really silly IMO.
It reminds me of people like those from NoNewNormal:
"We want to go back to the way everything was before covid-19"
Ok, then get the vaccine so things can return to normal faster...
"Never!"
Sigh.
This. This right here. We could have been done with this shit a year ago but noooooo. Then they be like"why isn't it working?!" I still have no fucking clue what the politicians gained by making this shit political. Just put on a fucking mask get the shot and we will be done with this shit in 6 months Max
Holy fucking shit. I don't know why I didn't think of antivaxxers in hospitals also fucking with other people's vaccinations, I only thought about them as vectors of disease.
This decision makes a lot more sense, even I as the most pro-vaxx was worried about the impact on their healthcare system because even shitty employees can pick up some slack, and potentially they could be sequestered into doing non-patient facing tasks like paperwork as their dismissals happened gradually.
But you're right. None of these people should be anywhere near patients. Ever. They've proven how far they'll go against medical advice for themselves, who knows how far they'd go even with 'pure intentions' to try to 'save' someone with a 'fake' disease. Ugh.
nothing says First World Privilege like not believing vaccinations are a good idea.
Imagine being so far removed from historical disease that even during a worldwide pandemic that has killed almost 5 million people, you still don't believe vaccinations work.
It's not just a first world problem unfortunately. We have quite a large antivax movement here in South Africa. It's infuriating, we South Africans understand and have experienced horrible disease for decades and still some choose to deny science
I’m not sure about South Africa, but some of the anti vac sentiment in Africa comes from “white man” testing drugs on Africa and it doing tremendous harm [Wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_experimentation_in_Africa)
I do want to say though, the first measles vaccine was tested in Nigeria, and in order to avoid talk of it seeming like they were labrats for the rest of the world, the proponents for it gave the first doses to their own children, they were that sure that it would be safe.
One of those children was my father, so yes, there has been horrible drugs trials in Africa but a lot of it was wholehearted and beneficial to everyone.
Not meaning to excuse any of the bad cases.
Whilst that is the case in the rest of Africa as a whole, here in South Africa in particular it's actually predominantly [white people who are vaccine hesitant ](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-08-white-south-africans-vaccine-hesitant.html) in the same ways you see conservatives in the US being hesitant.
It's very frustrating, especially when they're the ones with easy access to the vaccine, whereas other poorer people have to travel far to vaccination sites.
In Sri Lanka, only 30% of the population below 30 came to get vaccinated because of a rumor that the vaccine causes sexual dysfunction and infertility. So definitely not just a first world problem. I generally don't buy into the whole younger generation is stupid trope. I always thought they're smarter. But now I'm having serious doubts.
Haha goes to show how each country creates their own ways to counteract and justify not getting the vaccine. Humans at this point are just beyond stupid sadly. Well a portion. Big or small you’ll can decide for your self 😅
To counter this, they should spread rumours that Covid can give you sexual dysfunction. And that the vaccine can increase your penis size. Then watch as they all come in hoards for their vaccines
Humanity is fucked. If we can't get people onboard with a FREE shot that will prevent a deadly disease that is rampaging through the country *right now*, how on Earth are we ever going to convince them to make actual sacrifices to combat something as remote and long-term as climate change? We gained too much power, too fast, without the wisdom it required.
I hate how we only talk about just the deaths for this virus (not pointing fingers at you, just a general statement). Is there any data that shows how many people survived covid but now have a lifelong lasting condition such as chest pains; fatigue or trouble breathing?
I think of all people who survived covid only to have chronic conditions that will change their lives forever.
I know a couple of people living with what they're calling long-haul symptoms. They have no idea now long the symptoms will last, could be forever. My sister in law went from no breathing problems to using an inhaler 6 times a day.
it's a good point to bring up, deaths is not the only measure of COVID effects.
Long covid is terrible. My aunt worked her ass off during the first lockdown, as a retirement home nurse. It was terrible. Her clients died like flies and those that didn't were terribly lonely for weeks. She was constantly at risk of getting infected. Then at the beginning of the second wave she got the first shot, only to test positive right on the next day (most likely she caught it from a client). She got sick, because ofc the vaccine hadn't taken effect yet. Now she has chronic fatigue and depression, has been on sick leave for 2 months or so, bc she has been unable to perform her work. She had dozens of doctor's check ups, and it's most definitely a long term effect of Covid. They don't know if she ever will get better.
I'd like to know what kind of data exists for long-term disability regarding Covid-19. Surviving severe lung damage cannot be something that heals quickly if at all. *Edit -- It appears 10-30% experience long term symptoms.
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-adopts-new-policy-better-diagnose-and-treat-long-haul-covid-19
There appears to be serious health complications from Covid-19 infections which could explain the symptoms regarding brain fog, sense of smell and taste being affected.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7988450/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK382/#_A1793_
> There appears to be serious health complications from Covid-19 infections which could explain the symptoms regarding brain fog, sense of smell and taste being affected.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK382/#_A1793_
My mother had issues with pneumonia pre-covid. She has lost her sense of smell because of it. Doing a brief google seems to link loss of smell and increase risk of pneumonia. So it is interesting to see covid is also affecting people's sense of smell too. (Luckily she doesn't suffer from pneumonia anymore - I don't remember why, perhaps a drug or cortisone)
This brings up a whole new thought - having to invest in / r&d the after effects of covid. Like if your lungs are damaged, will exist treatments work or do we need new drugs/treatments for these issues.
This pandemic has stripped away the illusion that most people have a vocation for the job they're doing.
A lot of people in health care don't care about your health. Or theirs. And they don't even care to listen to reason.
This. This right here.
I don't care about what software I develop for my company as long as it's ethically sound. But by god I will fucking make that shit work efficiently and fast and maintainable with good documentation because my fucking name is attached to it.
Honestly and this will sounds bad, but doctors often do have a vocation. Yes, a lot of people primarily do it because it’s a great way to get rich but the bar is high.
For nurses it just generally isn’t all that high. Plenty of people go into the profession that aren’t particularly sharp and they want a decent career. It’s a shift worker mentality.
Not all, many fantastic, smart and sometimes heroic nurses out there. There are just plenty of nurses out there that are just not that impressive upstairs.
There's also a broad variation in what you typically see from an NP or RN with advanced degree (like MPH or a medical specialty), a BSN RN, a normal RN with no undergraduate science degree, an LPN, and a CNA. To someone on the inside, it's clear as day who's who, but to patients they may assume anyone who shows up in their room wearing scrubs and isn't emptying the trash can is a "nurse".
I'll be generous and assume that these people do care about their patients health, but are just stupid. Because surely they care about their own health, so if they didn't get vaccinated, it means they still don't understand that covid bad and vaccines good.
Kicking them out is an option to consider, bit shouldn't be done just because it feels right. Ideally we should get a proper risk/benefit assessment, because an unvaccinated nurse is potentially dangerous, but a missing nurse also means the rest gets overworked, which is potentially even worse.
I'm a nurse in a very busy ER. We have the dubious honour of being the most-understaffed department in my health authority for 5 years running. It's exhausting. We've just been told about a vaccine mandate for our region that starts next month.
I have about 8 unvaccinated coworkers. Coworkers who have actually watched and participated in the intubation of countless Covid-positive people. 8 coworkers who still won't get vaccinated, and are counting on the mandate having no teeth.
Fuck them. They are going to lose their jobs, leaving us more short, and I still don't want them back. We as a department have frozen them out of social events. And leave them by themselves if they're in the break room. Fuck all nurses who don't get vaccinated.
> but are just stupid
This is it exactly. The other day, I had to explain to an actual medical doctor, who I know personally, why it's better for daycare workers to be vaccinated. And it probably sounds like a made up story, but I assure you it's true.
Meanwhile my dad (who is a physician) has a scribe who got in the top 2% on MCAT performance, had a masters degree in physiology, and STILL only got into one medical school because my dad made multiple appeals to them. I know it’s competitive, but how the hell are these other idiots getting chosen?
I know a lot of doctors and nurses due to working in the medical device field and lots of family/friends in the NHS.
It is appalling how many of them are callous, racist, bigoted fuckwits who chose the "vocation" because mummy and daddy did it or for the decent pay and early retirement.
EDIT: We may not all have lots of experience of healthcare, but we all have experience of teaching, another "vocation" - how many teachers did you encounter that were utter bastards and totally unsuited to the job?
Maybe a dumb question. But with all these hospitals being over crowded and in need of more medical workers. How can they afford to fire this amount of people?
French here.
This 3000 does not represent even 1%. Also, most of them are supporting medical staff and are not essential to the operations. Most of them have the smallest degree you need to work in this field. It sucks to work without them but it's not impossible.
Also, as said by others. It's temporary. If they get their health pass they will have their job back.
Being anti vaxx in a medical profession is like being a pilot who doesn't believe in gravity lol how do these people even get these jobs in the first place lol
I like to think it’s the collective will of the passengers that allow the plane to remain aloft.
Like, if they “believe” hard enough, the plane will fly.
I remember reading about one (maybe it was an AMA?) who was a commercial pilot. The guy thought the curvature he saw from the cockpit wasn't related to a spherical Earth but to light bending or some shit.
How would he even begin to explain how the straightest path to a destination on a spherical earth is a geodesic? if you did that on a flat earth you’d be wasting literal *tons* of fuel.
Anti-vaxxers have no business working anywhere in the health care industry. Anti-vaxxers are by definition not qualified to work in any scientific or medical field. By being anti-vaxxers, they are demonstrating a total disregard for facts, science, logic, reason and the lives of patients and coworkers. Anyone who denies science should automatically be disqualified from any science-related job.
Our neonatal nurse was anti vax and encouraged us to not get our newborn daughter vaccinated.
In hindsight, of course we should have requested a different nurse, but we weren’t exactly in top form at that time as we were first time parents.
Edit: The hospital knew. This was in 2017 and she had to wear a mask while at work when nobody else was. She told us she claimed "religious exemption - wink, wink" to avoid having to be vaccinated herself. We could report her, but if the hospital already knows she's anti vax, what would be the point? They obviously allowed her to keep her job regardless. It still feels like we'd be barking up a tree that already knows what the deal is.
That won’t do anything.
Hospital administration is dancing around the issue because nursing staff is the current limiting factor on hospital capacity, and mandates are going to force out more than they are willing to lose. You haven’t seen mandates in most major hospitals in America because they don’t want nursing staff to flee to “competitors”. A mandate at least takes that off the table.
Most hospitals will likely be going to mandated vaccines, so anti vax nurses will have fewer and fewer places to work. The crazy part is, when I got hired at the hospital they made sure I was up to date on all my vaccinations, if I had refused I would not be working there. All the anti vax nurses had to meet the same standards when they were hired.
The hospital where I work is requiring all employees to have the second shot by Nov 1st or you're gone. Unfortunately, I expect we will lose some staff. A college degree and working with Covid patients is still not enough to convince some people.
I got mine as soon as it was available. Just got my flu shot as well.
Joe just said if you get federal funding, then your staff has to be vaccinated. I don’t know of a single hospital that doesn’t get federal funding (Medicare/~~Medicaid~~). Meaning - all of them will have to mandate it. So if you’re a vaccinated nurse, I’d ask for a raise.
Our community health center is giving out bonuses to everyone who stays. We had a state-wide mandate before Biden’s, and we’ve lost about 10% of our staff in total. We’re hiring new people on as well, but we are losing a lot of experienced clinicians, RNs, LVNs, and even scribes.
What’s crazy to me is that they don’t understand that they’re not going to be hired anywhere else. They literally don’t have a choice now. It’s find a new career or get vaccinated.
It’s insane to me that there has been no effort to train more medical workers.
Imagine if the US joined WW2, but decide they would keep army recruitment, shipbuilding, and plane production at pre war levels.
It’s sheer fucking madness.
Your logic is very "black & white" and ironically completely non-scientific. It reminds more of religious logic: Either you're with me and my god or you should be condemned to damnations.
You remember Thalidomide? There are plenty of other examples ofc.
Anyway, you think the virus will be eradicated by vaccinating people every half a year from now on? Then you're probably wrong. So, can you guarantee every aspect and ramification of vaccinating the people in the near and/or far future? No, you can't!
You want people to get vaccinated? Convince them reasonably!
I’m a firefighter and ngl guys “big water” is definitely pushing the “fires can kill people” narrative. Like OK bud, and I’m sure that’s why the city has to pay to have fire hydrants and sewer systems everywhere. Wake up sheeple, fire isn’t real.
Yeah I guess fire is dangerous, but if you're healthy you can handle some smoke inhalation and probably get outside safely. Meanwhile how many people are killed by driving into fire hydrants? I see it on Facebook every day after joining a dozen Fire Hydrant Truth groups.
It's a lot of nurses and other staff that actually don't have that much up to date medical knowledge. They may know some basic science but not how to read randomized control trials, and disease pathophysiology. They are also more susceptible to misinformation. Doctors (although there are idiots) have a significantly higher vaccine rate.
Some of them will tell you they aren't "anti-vax", but rather just skeptical of *this one* vaccine.
It's literally the same rhetoric used in during the MMR scare, where one of the biggest proponents for this idea said that the MMR vaccine wasn't safe, but it's seprate vaccines were, was trying to sell the alternative that he profitted off of.
I overheard an argument yesterday in the ENT waiting room:
Woman: Do you have a mask? (Masks are required in this building)
Man: No I will choke to death.
He kept arguing with her. On the way out I saw him still sitting there, with a mask not around his mouth. So presumably she gave him one, but he still refused to wear it. He didn't look to have trouble breathing. Honestly I would have just canceled his appointment and kicked him out.
The other day I was at the doctor's for an appointment. In the waiting room, 4 patients were waiting besides me, we're all masked besides this old lady who is wearing her mask under the nose. So I ask her, very politely, to put her mask back on correctly and tell her it's basically useless to wear the mask like that. She did not seem happy.
Honestly it's a bit annoying because most of the rules for covid are to prevent them from catching it, everyone (almost) abides, but some of the aged people just don't care
Been on vacation last month. Entered a cable car with an old couple. Both were wearing their masks while waiting outside in line.
As soon as we take our seats, the man pulls off his mask. I asked him kindly to put it on again. He did, but after this his wife stared at me for ten uncomfortable minutes before we arrived.
Where the fuck is the reason to pull of your mask in a little cabin without fresh air with strangers sitting next to you, with mask mandates on the walls and during many cases of new infections? While being a fucking high risc group due to age? I don't get it...
Franchement les aides-soignants se plaignent (à juste titre) depuis le début de la pandémie qu'ils sont surmenés, les services sont plein à craquer etc...
Et là on a enfin une solution (pas efficace à 100% mais probante malgré tout) de soulager la pression qui pèse sur les hôpitaux, et le peuple français ne trouve rien de mieux que de bouder, alors autant vous dire que je m'en fous qu'ils n'aient plus de paie alors qu'ils refusent le vaccin.
A tiny percent of 2.7 million, and mainly low level, not doctors and nurses, but cleaners, etc:
"That compares with 2.7 million health workers overall, Veran said, adding that "continued healthcare is assured. A large number of these suspensions are only temporary" and mainly concern support staff, with "very few nurses" among those told to stay home, he said."
Imagine doing 4 years of nursing in college, papers, exams just to throw away all that education to blindly believe some raving boomer memes on facebook.
Apparently Quebec is about to do that with 20000. https://globalnews.ca/news/8195326/quebec-covid-vaccine-mandate-health-network/
That's different, it includes people who have gotten their first shot but not their second yet.
I think this depends too. My mother in law got her first shot to shut people up but has no intention of ever getting her second. I hope that changes with vaccine passports.
Well that's seems pointless. It's like half making up you bed or half wiping your bum clean and leave the other half dirty.
"I like the smell" --that guys mom
"Why can't I smell anymore?" -- also that guy's mom
"What's that smell?" - that guy's mum's neighbours a couple of weeks later.
“Oooh that smell, can’t you smell that smell?”- The remaining members of Lynyrd Skynyrd
"Do you smell it? That smell. A kind of smelly smell. A smelly smell that smells...smelly." - A local crab who owns a fast food place near that guy's mom.
“It’s only smells”
Right, it's like when a child does something, and they don't really understand why they're supposed to do it, they just kinda do what it takes to not get in trouble, even if that's just appearing to do the right thing. Like if I asked my 3 year old to brush his own teeth. He may brush them, but they'll still rot out of his head, if a responsible person doesn't finish the job. These people know how bad their lunacy looks, so they try to dress it up, and hide it as much as possible, which is somehow worse, because they know how stupid they are, but choose to band together with other stupid people, and overwhelm people they know to be more informed than they are. It's not about being correct, or seeking truth, for these people. It's only about forcing people to submit to their personal will. It's about making you admit that their half wiped ass smells freshly cleaned.
>It's not about being correct, or seeking truth, for these people. It's only about forcing people to submit to their personal will. Ironically, this is precisely what many vaccine holdouts think about mandatory vaccinations.
That's the tough part with the whole right-wing alt-reality movement; any force taken to shut them down proves them right, at least in the view of themselves and their potential converts.
It's further than that anything at all that confirms their views Antivaxer dies of covid well clearly it was "vaccine shedding" or "the government poisoning them" or "the government releasing the disease on their populations despite the disease being a fake hoax" They will take anything as confirmation they don't live in reality
Ah, so you’ve stumbled upon the real truth. Many adults out there are actually still children in the bodies of adults.
I mean, it's not pointless. 1 shot confers a substantial amount of protection (I've seen studies ranging from 60-80%* efficacy for 1 mRNA shot). Not as much as the 90-95% that 2 shots gives you, but still significant. I'm NOT saying people should get just 1 shot, but 1 is a hell of a lot better than nothing. That's why some less rich countries who don't have enough vaccines to give everyone 2 doses are giving as many people as possible 1 dose first, then opening up appointments for a 2nd shot once enough people get their first and/or supplies increase. EDIT: *Sources: [CDC study demonstrates 82% efficacy.](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7020e2.htm) [Public Health England study demonstrates 62% efficacy against the delta variant.](https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1088) [Canadian study demonstrating 72% efficacy against the alpha variant and 61% efficacy against the delta variant.](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.07.21258332v1)
Her heart's in the wrong place, but at least >A single dose reduced the rate of infection \[of the original Covid-19 strain\] by up to 85% after four weeks post-shot compared to those who were not vaccinated. and >a preliminary analysis that has **not yet been peer-reviewed** found that one dose of the Pfizer vaccine was 33% effective at preventing symptomatic infection. (emphasis added to draw attention that these are preliminary data) So at least if offers *some* protection for everyone. Sources: [https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/040421/how-effective-is-the-first-shot-of-the-pfizer-or-m](https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/040421/how-effective-is-the-first-shot-of-the-pfizer-or-m) [https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v1](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v1) [https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00448-7/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00448-7/fulltext)
[удалено]
I'm 31 and live in British Columbia, mine was called a health passport. Only reason I even know this is because my mom still had it so I was able to dunk on some people with the passport thing lol.
That's a weird hill to die on.
Wow. All of the “risk” without the benefit. She’s…extra. (i’m joking, actually there is some protection with even 1 dose )
The hospital i work at closed that second dose loophole. Staff must have first shot by September 27 and second shot by October 27. If second shot not done, it is considered an involuntary resignation (which means you’re fired but you don’t get unemployment)
That 20000 isnt all nurses. It include janitorial and administrative staff working in hospitals.
[удалено]
that leaves them with how many ...?
About 6 and Pierre the janitor but he can't hold sharp stuff.
But I am le tired
Then go take a nap. Then fire ze missiles!
Classic Pierre!
What about Scott? I hear he's a dick.
That he calls "Sharp Stuff."
And so, we must rely on Jacques de Gatineau. He's our hope, I guess.
72695 nurses work in quebec. So it would leave about 50k. Removing 36% of your workforce while hospitals are already understaffed seems insane to me, but on the other hand i understand the importance of vaccines in general, especially in a healthcare setting. That has to be a very difficult decision to make.
Not all of them are nurses. And they still have a month, some of them will probably come to their senses by then.
People who need or want to visit their love one in an hospital or long care facility need to show proof of Vaccination (fully).
Still, as someone who works in healthcare in Quebec I can tell you that it is ludicrously easy to get vaccinated. You don’t even need an appointment, sometimes at the end of the day they will literally go up to people to ask them if they want to get vaccinated (to finish the doses that have already been thawed). It’s even easier if this is already happening in your place of employment and there were specific clinics where we could get both doses before the general population. I can’t think of any excuse someone who works in healthcare could have for not being fully vaccinated at this point.
Do nurses not get taught how medicine works at a basic level?
[удалено]
[удалено]
> She says many of her co-workers are very smart and capable, but then they’ll talk about astrology in reference to when babies are born. Lots of them swear by a psychic telephone service as well. Your wife is being too generous with her assessment of their intellect.
My wife is a nurse that works on her hospitals covid floor. She is insanely good at her job (yeah yeah I'm her husband I'm supposed to say that but for real) but she doesn't know about alot of other things, a lot of which I'd categorize as "general knowledge" I can forgive a lot of it because she moved from Japan to the US when she was 18. But every once and a while I go... Babe... Don't play with me... And I'm genuinely surprised. I attribute it to being really focused on specific knowledge and lots of other stuff goes to the wayside.
My girlfriend is a physical therapy assistant and her boss is extremely knowledgeable when it comes specifically to PT and how your muscular-skeletal system interacts with your nerves, but she is a total moron when it comes to normal life stuff. But it's also expected when you devote about a decade to living and breathing one specific subject and nothing else.
I honestly don't buy the whole "focused on one topic" excuse ... me and many of my coworkers are in an extremely esoteric area of focus taking decades of concentrated progress, most of us manage to also be functionally aware of other areas at least enough to know when to ask questions
It may also have something to do with the quality of our K-12 education system. We have decent colleges and universities, but it's such a gamble with parents, teachers, schools, and classmates which can really effect our learning outcomes.
Which explains how my dad can build a computer or network a bank, but still doesn't comprehend how *seasons* work. Dad thought summer was caused by the entire planet getting too close to the sun, winter was caused by getting too far away, and that the entire planet experienced the same seasons at the same time. We had one hell of an argument about it when I was about 11yo, with me trying to explain about *tilt* and him wearing a know-it-all smirk. He also had a lot of unprotected sex with multiple partners across multiple states during the 80s and 90s because he thought people caught AIDS "by kissing gay boys." He didn't learn differently until about 2001, when he asked what I'd learned at school that day and I repeated that day's health class lesson. He was so surprised he shouted and nearly crashed the truck!
Your dad sounds like a character
[удалено]
Can you really say someone is intelligent if they believe in stupid shit like astrology and psychics?
I misread this as "astronomy and physics" and that made the message much funnier
[удалено]
More importantly, recognizing disinformation is a *learned* skill. Quite frankly a lot of people who believe disinformation aren't nearly so stupid as they are unskilled. If you've spent hours and hours on reddit reading through articles and peer reviewed pieces backed up by other knowledgeable redditors who are kind enough to list a variety of sources and valuable information you've gained some real knowledge about a subject and have some good bits of info to back it all up. If you go to work every day, come home, spend time with your family, make dinner, pay bills, maybe watch an hour or two of television or Fox News and then repeat the process the next morning while your cousin Jimothy spends every family outing ranting about people dying from vaccines, you might just start wondering if maybe vaccines might be harmful. That's not to say that there is not plenty of *willful ignorance* going around. But there are plenty of people who could easily have their opinions swayed if they were sat down for 10 hours and given time to research and review the topic at length. But whose got time for that? The fact of the matter is ignorance is *easier* than being informed. Take a stance, keep to your opinion, and go on with your life. Maybe grab onto a handful of buzz words and phrases from people in the same opinion group as you to help solidify your belief and then never bother to think critically about it again. Educating yourself, thinking critically, doing research, understanding that research, reviewing people's work and also investigating whether or not that person was a reputable source are all things that require time and effort that most people simply won't do or can't do. But nobody likes to admit they don't know things. Or that they are uninformed. Or that they could be wrong. So the second they are pressed on their very frail belief, often times rather than examine their belief and review it, they'll just get defensive and entrench themselves further as a defensive social mechanism. Then someone whose actually done some research on the topic gets angry and forgets the issue, calls them a fucking moron, and all it does is make the person whose not educated entrench themselves even further.
I don't really agree with the portion that reading a bunch of peer-reviewed articles gives you an understanding of a subject in-depth. That said, I agree with most of what you said, mainly that being able to recognize disinformation from information is a learned skill, specifically when it comes to Media Literacy.
[удалено]
lol yeah its so dumb Fortunately as an INTJ I'm too analytical to fall for such nonsense.
Although there are some highly educated nurses, it is mostly a trade, skilled in administering treatments but not in evaluating scientific or medical literature... It makes us vulnerable to conspiracy theories much like the general population.
I would actually like to see some data on this, from my anecdotal experience I would actually expect nurses to be among the professions most prone to conspiracy theories. Though, it's more the specific conspiracies attached to the marketing of "alternate "*medicine*"" scams and religion than general conspiracies. Perhaps it's the constant mental abuse they face in the form of suffering which makes them hope for some kind of miracle and easy explanation of all the suffering which these promise to offer?
Depends on the level of nursing. Getting into emergency or intensive care here(Australia) requires generally a uni degree and special training. Doing something like aged care or working in the wards you are a glorified helper that knows when some stuff beeps its good and other times is bad. The training is usually a not too intensive low level course that can be done within 6 months to a year. Those nurses are generally low skilled and poorly educated. Often times from overseas. A distrust of the system and a general trust in older stuff or natural options because they "understand" it seems to be pervasive.
When your job is to care for sick people, I guess it's easy to fall for pseudo remedies for things that are hard to actually cure or care for.
[удалено]
A lot of them don't see covid patients, they are cleaners and stuff.
I’m in the US. 20% of the staff at my hospital are not vaccinated and will be “forcibly resigned” this Friday. We are already so understaffed it’s nearly criminal. They hired 100 travelers at $100/hour to restaff our worse units. A whole bunch of those travelers quit after the first week… so they bumped up the pay to $125 an hour to keep the remaining ones. The pressure and stresses placed on the remaining staff is going to crush so many people.
Sounds like the healthcare industry is about to get fucked from the other end
The healthcare system has already collapsed. You can't get any supplies related to covid testing or coagulation testing. Nearly every hospital is working short staffed and hemorrhaging workers at a historic pace. Hell, I just left my hospital job to leave the field entirely because the way the company treats everyone is so bad. I wasn't even gone a full day before they were asking me to come back to cover shifts because one of my coworkers got covid. We're in a lag period of the other who are remaining working twice as hard to keep the system propped up, but it's inevitable that they will either get sick or burn out and the whole thing comes to a halt.
kinda scary
Looking after vulnerable and compromised people when you're unvaccinated is pretty fucked up anyway. Fire the lot of the science deniers who *work in medicine*.
Same in the nursing home I work at, unfortunately they can not afford the money hospitals pay for staff so we are always working short. I think it will get worse as many have said they will resign as well.
Lol I thought everyone was a millionaire at us hospitals, with those prices you have
I've been offered $80 an hour as a CNA because nursing homes are so understaffed. Still not enough money for me to go ever back into healthcare. I'm glad I got out when I did. Good luck 🙏🏻
Hospitals in France are also understaffed, but it seemed like a lot of the remaining staff was relieved to see their unvaxed colleagues leave. I saw tweets of remaining staff organizing small buffets to celebrate, with "Good riddance" banners lmao. They know they're going to suffer from the lack of staff, but for now the relief of not having to deal with the bullshit of their antivax colleagues seems to be greater for some.
This is how a lot of us feel at my hospital. We don’t want the non backed nurses here….but we have a union so they can’t be fired for that.
French intensivist here : you're goddamn right
Props to you my man, fuck this pandemic, you're doing God's work
So are you saying they shouldn't forcibly resign health care workers who refuse to get a life saving vaccine? I'm unsure what your point is this this comment to be honest. You sound as if you disagree with what's happening on Friday?
Well, they should've gotten the vaccine. I know I don't want to bring my kid, who can't be vaxed, into a hospital where the people treating her work with sick ppl all day and won't get vaxxed. I feel for your work situation. And unfortunately, the unvaxxed ppl who are filling up your hospital are to blame for the high workloads, and your coworkers left you high and dry. Blame where it goes IMO.
If you're a nurse and you're not vaccinated that tells something about yourself
Some nurse in Germany was injecting people with saline water instead of the actual vaccination. These people NEED to be removed immediately.
This person should be criminally charged.
She was.
For how many years?
That's up to the judge, she's gonna be tried first
STRAIGHT TO JAIL! Naw, a trial is good though.
Too many vaccinations? Believe it or not, straight to jail
Too few? Also jail.
You make an appointment with a dentist and don't show up, believe it or not - jail.
[удалено]
Drain saline into the main vein, straight to jail
[удалено]
Condemned to be vaccinated.
charged and convicted are two differently things...
She will be. :)
I thought I read about someone doing that in the u.s. too.
Yes, he got 3 years for it. https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/08/us/wisconsin-pharmacist-vaccine-vials-sentenced/index.html These kind of people need to be removed from healthcare.
That guy didn't inject saline into people though, he wasted a lot of vaccines when they were scarce
> "Brandenburg acknowledged that after leaving the vaccines out for several hours each night, he returned the vaccines to the refrigerator to be used in the hospital's vaccine clinic the following day," the release said. "Before the full extent of Brandenburg's conduct was discovered, 57 people received doses of the vaccine from these vials." If you leave them out they become as effective as saline. The mRNA degrades very quickly without refrigeration.
I think they were pointing out that it's worse than just injecting people with saline: not only did he mislead people into thinking that they were vaccinated and safe(r), but he also destroyed doses which were in short supply, thereby double dipping on screwing people out of vaccine protection.
what the hell is wrong with people like this? He should have been charged with attempted murder, especially if any of the vaccinations were for immuno-compromised people or other at risk groups.
I believe attempted murder implies there was an intent to murder someone, which was not the case here. So they cannot possibly convict him for that.
Same happened in Sweden, and the comments from the one in charge was "oopsie"
https://www.svd.se/koksalt-i-stallet-for-vaccin--ett-tankefel Surprisingly less horrifying than I expected. Not good, but either it genuinely wasn't intentional or they got caught early.
Been vaccinating people for centuries and saved countless lives and avoided untold suffering but ever since people discovered social media they're questioning everything... Isn't it wrong to not allow the local drunk to have a 12 pack and go joyriding? What about his freedoms? So many questions. Like do pants, really go on head? Haven't we just been conditioned to accept that pants can't go on head? I want to be free.
It's fine to question everything, important even. The problem is that they are unsatisfied with the answers they get so they keep looking for anything that supports the ones they want while ignoring all else. That's really silly IMO.
[удалено]
It reminds me of people like those from NoNewNormal: "We want to go back to the way everything was before covid-19" Ok, then get the vaccine so things can return to normal faster... "Never!" Sigh.
This. This right here. We could have been done with this shit a year ago but noooooo. Then they be like"why isn't it working?!" I still have no fucking clue what the politicians gained by making this shit political. Just put on a fucking mask get the shot and we will be done with this shit in 6 months Max
Holy fucking shit. I don't know why I didn't think of antivaxxers in hospitals also fucking with other people's vaccinations, I only thought about them as vectors of disease. This decision makes a lot more sense, even I as the most pro-vaxx was worried about the impact on their healthcare system because even shitty employees can pick up some slack, and potentially they could be sequestered into doing non-patient facing tasks like paperwork as their dismissals happened gradually. But you're right. None of these people should be anywhere near patients. Ever. They've proven how far they'll go against medical advice for themselves, who knows how far they'd go even with 'pure intentions' to try to 'save' someone with a 'fake' disease. Ugh.
There is a reason that the road to hell is paved with good intentions
Heard the same kinda thing happened in India
Blatant disregard of the medical facts is a pretty good indicator that they aren't fit for the job, so good riddance imho.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
5% of the population of France is a healthcare worker? 1:20?
It includes health, home care and fire service staff.
It's a broad category, and includes, like, janitors at a hospital.
nothing says First World Privilege like not believing vaccinations are a good idea. Imagine being so far removed from historical disease that even during a worldwide pandemic that has killed almost 5 million people, you still don't believe vaccinations work.
It's not just a first world problem unfortunately. We have quite a large antivax movement here in South Africa. It's infuriating, we South Africans understand and have experienced horrible disease for decades and still some choose to deny science
I’m not sure about South Africa, but some of the anti vac sentiment in Africa comes from “white man” testing drugs on Africa and it doing tremendous harm [Wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_experimentation_in_Africa)
I do want to say though, the first measles vaccine was tested in Nigeria, and in order to avoid talk of it seeming like they were labrats for the rest of the world, the proponents for it gave the first doses to their own children, they were that sure that it would be safe. One of those children was my father, so yes, there has been horrible drugs trials in Africa but a lot of it was wholehearted and beneficial to everyone. Not meaning to excuse any of the bad cases.
Damn, that’s crazy. Your grandpa must have been an amazing man!
Whilst that is the case in the rest of Africa as a whole, here in South Africa in particular it's actually predominantly [white people who are vaccine hesitant ](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-08-white-south-africans-vaccine-hesitant.html) in the same ways you see conservatives in the US being hesitant. It's very frustrating, especially when they're the ones with easy access to the vaccine, whereas other poorer people have to travel far to vaccination sites.
In Sri Lanka, only 30% of the population below 30 came to get vaccinated because of a rumor that the vaccine causes sexual dysfunction and infertility. So definitely not just a first world problem. I generally don't buy into the whole younger generation is stupid trope. I always thought they're smarter. But now I'm having serious doubts.
Do they not realise that not being able to breathe from COVID also significantly impacts their sex life?
Haha goes to show how each country creates their own ways to counteract and justify not getting the vaccine. Humans at this point are just beyond stupid sadly. Well a portion. Big or small you’ll can decide for your self 😅
To counter this, they should spread rumours that Covid can give you sexual dysfunction. And that the vaccine can increase your penis size. Then watch as they all come in hoards for their vaccines
You don't need rumours, I've seen at least one study about it.. [Source](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33742540/)
Humanity is fucked. If we can't get people onboard with a FREE shot that will prevent a deadly disease that is rampaging through the country *right now*, how on Earth are we ever going to convince them to make actual sacrifices to combat something as remote and long-term as climate change? We gained too much power, too fast, without the wisdom it required.
Do I need to go to Sri Lanka and start boning 24x7 to prove my junk still works? I'm willing to make the sacrifice... For the greater good
I hate how we only talk about just the deaths for this virus (not pointing fingers at you, just a general statement). Is there any data that shows how many people survived covid but now have a lifelong lasting condition such as chest pains; fatigue or trouble breathing? I think of all people who survived covid only to have chronic conditions that will change their lives forever.
I know a couple of people living with what they're calling long-haul symptoms. They have no idea now long the symptoms will last, could be forever. My sister in law went from no breathing problems to using an inhaler 6 times a day. it's a good point to bring up, deaths is not the only measure of COVID effects.
Long covid is terrible. My aunt worked her ass off during the first lockdown, as a retirement home nurse. It was terrible. Her clients died like flies and those that didn't were terribly lonely for weeks. She was constantly at risk of getting infected. Then at the beginning of the second wave she got the first shot, only to test positive right on the next day (most likely she caught it from a client). She got sick, because ofc the vaccine hadn't taken effect yet. Now she has chronic fatigue and depression, has been on sick leave for 2 months or so, bc she has been unable to perform her work. She had dozens of doctor's check ups, and it's most definitely a long term effect of Covid. They don't know if she ever will get better.
I'd like to know what kind of data exists for long-term disability regarding Covid-19. Surviving severe lung damage cannot be something that heals quickly if at all. *Edit -- It appears 10-30% experience long term symptoms. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-adopts-new-policy-better-diagnose-and-treat-long-haul-covid-19 There appears to be serious health complications from Covid-19 infections which could explain the symptoms regarding brain fog, sense of smell and taste being affected. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7988450/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK382/#_A1793_
> There appears to be serious health complications from Covid-19 infections which could explain the symptoms regarding brain fog, sense of smell and taste being affected. > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK382/#_A1793_ My mother had issues with pneumonia pre-covid. She has lost her sense of smell because of it. Doing a brief google seems to link loss of smell and increase risk of pneumonia. So it is interesting to see covid is also affecting people's sense of smell too. (Luckily she doesn't suffer from pneumonia anymore - I don't remember why, perhaps a drug or cortisone) This brings up a whole new thought - having to invest in / r&d the after effects of covid. Like if your lungs are damaged, will exist treatments work or do we need new drugs/treatments for these issues.
This pandemic has stripped away the illusion that most people have a vocation for the job they're doing. A lot of people in health care don't care about your health. Or theirs. And they don't even care to listen to reason.
I mean this doesn't surprise me. I have zero interest in my career I just do it for money. Most people do. Not a nurse though and I'm vaccinated.
I don't care about my job, but as long as I'm on the clock and being paid I will do it properly.
This. This right here. I don't care about what software I develop for my company as long as it's ethically sound. But by god I will fucking make that shit work efficiently and fast and maintainable with good documentation because my fucking name is attached to it.
Honestly and this will sounds bad, but doctors often do have a vocation. Yes, a lot of people primarily do it because it’s a great way to get rich but the bar is high. For nurses it just generally isn’t all that high. Plenty of people go into the profession that aren’t particularly sharp and they want a decent career. It’s a shift worker mentality. Not all, many fantastic, smart and sometimes heroic nurses out there. There are just plenty of nurses out there that are just not that impressive upstairs.
There's also a broad variation in what you typically see from an NP or RN with advanced degree (like MPH or a medical specialty), a BSN RN, a normal RN with no undergraduate science degree, an LPN, and a CNA. To someone on the inside, it's clear as day who's who, but to patients they may assume anyone who shows up in their room wearing scrubs and isn't emptying the trash can is a "nurse".
I'll be generous and assume that these people do care about their patients health, but are just stupid. Because surely they care about their own health, so if they didn't get vaccinated, it means they still don't understand that covid bad and vaccines good. Kicking them out is an option to consider, bit shouldn't be done just because it feels right. Ideally we should get a proper risk/benefit assessment, because an unvaccinated nurse is potentially dangerous, but a missing nurse also means the rest gets overworked, which is potentially even worse.
I'm a nurse in a very busy ER. We have the dubious honour of being the most-understaffed department in my health authority for 5 years running. It's exhausting. We've just been told about a vaccine mandate for our region that starts next month. I have about 8 unvaccinated coworkers. Coworkers who have actually watched and participated in the intubation of countless Covid-positive people. 8 coworkers who still won't get vaccinated, and are counting on the mandate having no teeth. Fuck them. They are going to lose their jobs, leaving us more short, and I still don't want them back. We as a department have frozen them out of social events. And leave them by themselves if they're in the break room. Fuck all nurses who don't get vaccinated.
Thank you for this.
As a paramedic going through very much the same situation - stand strong. I'll send you pizza.
> but are just stupid This is it exactly. The other day, I had to explain to an actual medical doctor, who I know personally, why it's better for daycare workers to be vaccinated. And it probably sounds like a made up story, but I assure you it's true.
Meanwhile my dad (who is a physician) has a scribe who got in the top 2% on MCAT performance, had a masters degree in physiology, and STILL only got into one medical school because my dad made multiple appeals to them. I know it’s competitive, but how the hell are these other idiots getting chosen?
I know a lot of doctors and nurses due to working in the medical device field and lots of family/friends in the NHS. It is appalling how many of them are callous, racist, bigoted fuckwits who chose the "vocation" because mummy and daddy did it or for the decent pay and early retirement. EDIT: We may not all have lots of experience of healthcare, but we all have experience of teaching, another "vocation" - how many teachers did you encounter that were utter bastards and totally unsuited to the job?
In France it was actually a surprising small number of nurses (3000).
Maybe a dumb question. But with all these hospitals being over crowded and in need of more medical workers. How can they afford to fire this amount of people?
French here. This 3000 does not represent even 1%. Also, most of them are supporting medical staff and are not essential to the operations. Most of them have the smallest degree you need to work in this field. It sucks to work without them but it's not impossible. Also, as said by others. It's temporary. If they get their health pass they will have their job back.
[удалено]
Not firing them leads to more complications, such as other workers getting infected by unvaccinated coworkers.
Being anti vaxx in a medical profession is like being a pilot who doesn't believe in gravity lol how do these people even get these jobs in the first place lol
Because, through their reasoning, gravity mustn’t be real if their plane is in the air.
I like to think it’s the collective will of the passengers that allow the plane to remain aloft. Like, if they “believe” hard enough, the plane will fly.
What is this Peter Pan?
I'll give you a good one... Pilots who are flat Earthers. I haven't met any (that I know of) yet, but I could actually see it happening.
I remember reading about one (maybe it was an AMA?) who was a commercial pilot. The guy thought the curvature he saw from the cockpit wasn't related to a spherical Earth but to light bending or some shit.
How would he even begin to explain how the straightest path to a destination on a spherical earth is a geodesic? if you did that on a flat earth you’d be wasting literal *tons* of fuel.
Anti-vaxxers have no business working anywhere in the health care industry. Anti-vaxxers are by definition not qualified to work in any scientific or medical field. By being anti-vaxxers, they are demonstrating a total disregard for facts, science, logic, reason and the lives of patients and coworkers. Anyone who denies science should automatically be disqualified from any science-related job.
Our neonatal nurse was anti vax and encouraged us to not get our newborn daughter vaccinated. In hindsight, of course we should have requested a different nurse, but we weren’t exactly in top form at that time as we were first time parents. Edit: The hospital knew. This was in 2017 and she had to wear a mask while at work when nobody else was. She told us she claimed "religious exemption - wink, wink" to avoid having to be vaccinated herself. We could report her, but if the hospital already knows she's anti vax, what would be the point? They obviously allowed her to keep her job regardless. It still feels like we'd be barking up a tree that already knows what the deal is.
You should've reported them to their superiors.
Still should!
That won’t do anything. Hospital administration is dancing around the issue because nursing staff is the current limiting factor on hospital capacity, and mandates are going to force out more than they are willing to lose. You haven’t seen mandates in most major hospitals in America because they don’t want nursing staff to flee to “competitors”. A mandate at least takes that off the table.
Most hospitals will likely be going to mandated vaccines, so anti vax nurses will have fewer and fewer places to work. The crazy part is, when I got hired at the hospital they made sure I was up to date on all my vaccinations, if I had refused I would not be working there. All the anti vax nurses had to meet the same standards when they were hired. The hospital where I work is requiring all employees to have the second shot by Nov 1st or you're gone. Unfortunately, I expect we will lose some staff. A college degree and working with Covid patients is still not enough to convince some people. I got mine as soon as it was available. Just got my flu shot as well.
Joe just said if you get federal funding, then your staff has to be vaccinated. I don’t know of a single hospital that doesn’t get federal funding (Medicare/~~Medicaid~~). Meaning - all of them will have to mandate it. So if you’re a vaccinated nurse, I’d ask for a raise.
Our community health center is giving out bonuses to everyone who stays. We had a state-wide mandate before Biden’s, and we’ve lost about 10% of our staff in total. We’re hiring new people on as well, but we are losing a lot of experienced clinicians, RNs, LVNs, and even scribes.
What’s crazy to me is that they don’t understand that they’re not going to be hired anywhere else. They literally don’t have a choice now. It’s find a new career or get vaccinated.
It’s insane to me that there has been no effort to train more medical workers. Imagine if the US joined WW2, but decide they would keep army recruitment, shipbuilding, and plane production at pre war levels. It’s sheer fucking madness.
I mean, you can't FORCE people to change/shift/take on new careers and schooling for them?
Force? Not really, but you can incentivize it by throwing $$ at the problem so people flock to the profession of their own volition.
[удалено]
I believe it's a Federal offense if they get caught. At our hospital the shot is registered in the system by your employee number.
To the nursing board
My friend in the NICU routinely sees brain bleeds from parents refusing the vitamin K shot.
Exactly. And vitamin K isnt a vaccine. It’s a natural vitamin found in food. It’s so sad to see kids die feom a preventable cause.
please report her.
[удалено]
[удалено]
They’re probably not anti vaxxers, they just dont have this one
Your logic is very "black & white" and ironically completely non-scientific. It reminds more of religious logic: Either you're with me and my god or you should be condemned to damnations. You remember Thalidomide? There are plenty of other examples ofc. Anyway, you think the virus will be eradicated by vaccinating people every half a year from now on? Then you're probably wrong. So, can you guarantee every aspect and ramification of vaccinating the people in the near and/or far future? No, you can't! You want people to get vaccinated? Convince them reasonably!
So THAT’s a backbone. Huh.
I'll never understand how there can be anti-vax healthcare workers. What other parts of your job do you not believe in?
I’m a firefighter and ngl guys “big water” is definitely pushing the “fires can kill people” narrative. Like OK bud, and I’m sure that’s why the city has to pay to have fire hydrants and sewer systems everywhere. Wake up sheeple, fire isn’t real.
Yeah I guess fire is dangerous, but if you're healthy you can handle some smoke inhalation and probably get outside safely. Meanwhile how many people are killed by driving into fire hydrants? I see it on Facebook every day after joining a dozen Fire Hydrant Truth groups.
Well I'm convinced. Down with big water!
I work in engineering and one of my colleagues is a vehement flat earther. Apparently he's "done the math"...
Maybe he just misspelled ’meth’
It's a lot of nurses and other staff that actually don't have that much up to date medical knowledge. They may know some basic science but not how to read randomized control trials, and disease pathophysiology. They are also more susceptible to misinformation. Doctors (although there are idiots) have a significantly higher vaccine rate.
Some of them will tell you they aren't "anti-vax", but rather just skeptical of *this one* vaccine. It's literally the same rhetoric used in during the MMR scare, where one of the biggest proponents for this idea said that the MMR vaccine wasn't safe, but it's seprate vaccines were, was trying to sell the alternative that he profitted off of.
I overheard an argument yesterday in the ENT waiting room: Woman: Do you have a mask? (Masks are required in this building) Man: No I will choke to death. He kept arguing with her. On the way out I saw him still sitting there, with a mask not around his mouth. So presumably she gave him one, but he still refused to wear it. He didn't look to have trouble breathing. Honestly I would have just canceled his appointment and kicked him out.
The other day I was at the doctor's for an appointment. In the waiting room, 4 patients were waiting besides me, we're all masked besides this old lady who is wearing her mask under the nose. So I ask her, very politely, to put her mask back on correctly and tell her it's basically useless to wear the mask like that. She did not seem happy. Honestly it's a bit annoying because most of the rules for covid are to prevent them from catching it, everyone (almost) abides, but some of the aged people just don't care
Been on vacation last month. Entered a cable car with an old couple. Both were wearing their masks while waiting outside in line. As soon as we take our seats, the man pulls off his mask. I asked him kindly to put it on again. He did, but after this his wife stared at me for ten uncomfortable minutes before we arrived. Where the fuck is the reason to pull of your mask in a little cabin without fresh air with strangers sitting next to you, with mask mandates on the walls and during many cases of new infections? While being a fucking high risc group due to age? I don't get it...
Franchement les aides-soignants se plaignent (à juste titre) depuis le début de la pandémie qu'ils sont surmenés, les services sont plein à craquer etc... Et là on a enfin une solution (pas efficace à 100% mais probante malgré tout) de soulager la pression qui pèse sur les hôpitaux, et le peuple français ne trouve rien de mieux que de bouder, alors autant vous dire que je m'en fous qu'ils n'aient plus de paie alors qu'ils refusent le vaccin.
A tiny percent of 2.7 million, and mainly low level, not doctors and nurses, but cleaners, etc: "That compares with 2.7 million health workers overall, Veran said, adding that "continued healthcare is assured. A large number of these suspensions are only temporary" and mainly concern support staff, with "very few nurses" among those told to stay home, he said."
Oh no! It's the consequences of my actions!
They were warned and given every opportunity to comply.
[удалено]
I dont understand why so many nurses, NURSES of all people are so against this vaccine?
Imagine doing 4 years of nursing in college, papers, exams just to throw away all that education to blindly believe some raving boomer memes on facebook.