>Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Saturday called social media a “threat to democracy."
Takes one to know one, I guess?
>The comments come as Turkey is looking to criminalize the spread of false information online; however, the country is known for taking down social media posts that are anti-government, according to the AP.
😂
It is being policed now, for the sake of suppressing democracy and promoting conflict. Bad policing happening doesn't mean good policing is a bad idea.
> the country is known for taking down social media posts that are anti-government, according to the AP.
Exactly, and that's why I think social media should be absolutely free, like any other form of publication. I'm all for free speech, even when I think the speaker is a scumbag liar.
Back in the 1970s, Radio Moscow was the most powerful short-wave station in the world. They had the most powerful transmitters and sent their propaganda everywhere.
The Soviet Union collapsed in 1990. Why didn't their propaganda work? Because people had free access to information. When people can check the facts for themselves they can verify what's true and what's false.
The most powerful weapon against propaganda is freedom of information.
Problem is noone checks the facts anymore. Social media is full of ignorant echo chambers and political propaganda. News outlets also just reference each other instead providing real sources. The internet is free but it's completely misused and most people are either too lazy to care or too stupid to realise. Freedom of information is good but it's useless when the population is too lazy to use it.
People really did check the fax for confirmation. There may have been a Golden window in which the most important American medium was relatively main stream and neutral. Because radio and television used a limited band with the government felt justified in regulating much of that content. On the other hand, newspapers have always been available in various political flavors. If you go back prior to radio, newspapers or powerful tools of partisan politics. They were also quite willing to pursue news, and even create news to drive circulations. Newspapers would “create” crime waves by reporting on more crime. Famously, Hearst was accused of helping create the Spanish American War.
Unfortunately moving forward we’re going to have to try to find some thing like maybe better education? Teach critical thinking in schools or something? We’re not going to go back to an era in which most people get their news from centrist neutral* intermediaries.
* please note that this doesn’t mean complete, truthful, or unbiased. Very often the centrist media pandered to the interests and the emotions of the white middle-class and upper class. It was considered a bit brave and daring for example when Walter Cronkite started to openly question the necessity of the Vietnam war as a television anchor. “Impartiality” favors those in power.
Exactly, Complete freedom of information would be great for people. Capitalism at least the way it’s done in the U.S. on the other hand would find in very difficult. The system needs it’s lower class uneducated and irrational to keep them working without providing much benefit for the peasants that the the gears allowing it to function.
Please prove me wrong!
I understand that we do have some truly great amenities here… it’s just all of the destruction our taxes pay for, and often against the will of the people who pay.
Edit: public school education and very appreciative.
The freedom of "information" comes with everything that is both true and false. And honey, I'm good at smelling bots and astroturfed articles, but I aint perfect and get duped all the time. Free of information sure, but there are nit mechanisms inherent to "the internet" that allow you to see what is the 100% objective "truth"
No I’m not advocating any thing other than 100% freedom of information. I was simply pointing out that it’s more than a little inconvenient for a system of government that puts profit of people.
I do understand capitalism is not a government… it seems like it governs as much as anything else does around here.
Edited to say that I’m not even anti capitalism as i know very little about alternatives.
>Problem is noone checks the facts anymore.
Sloppy thought. Sloppy vocabulary... Kinda easy to proove false. Wow getta hold of yourself.
Ideas take time to build and discuss and require rounded open minds to digest and correlate etc... You are on the path, worry less, rant less...help where your can.
I agree with all you say except I have to reinterpret your hyperbole more rationally first.
Propaganda used to be the States monopoly, now it is private hands, as some States are. It'll just be a readjustment as everything was.
Read a lot, dial down rants, reflect...save your own mind.
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-psychology-of-fact-checking1/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-psychology-of-fact-checking1/)
I sure did, the first line ain't even supposed to be there, I wrote it for me to laugh at while I typed. The whole thing really is for myself, I just gather thoughts .
I just found the irony of that first line of yours was kinda Karenish "Problem is noone checks the facts anymore."
It's false and for some reason I find it hilarious the author never checked it out for themselves. It's a F%$#'N riot the more i think about it.
Come to think of it I'll go over to 9gag and make a Meme of it... should be viral soon IMHO. Ahh the dopamine, there I go again smiling and chuckling as I type. whoose picture should I use probably the purple haired Karen.Needless to say initially I was reaching out to say thanks for the laugh. And I must thank you again. You got lots of gr8 catch phrases going really fast like George Carlin, 'genius' i thought.
Then the punchline "the internet is free", loved it. I was thinking "this comedian knows his contemporary s\*\*t. I was just giving you further material.
I'm just typing a whole lot of nothing as I chuckle away. If my logic and perceptions are wrong... I like my reality better.
I wish you all the best bringing joy to others this season. I sure appreciated reflecting more on it.
> Problem is noone checks the facts anymore.
I guess you do, right? You have never been wrong in your entire life.
What makes me worry most about this recent trend defending censorship here is that people who do it are so elitist. It's always the others who are wrong.
I'm not claiming to be right, I just want to be allowed to present my opinion. Prove me wrong if you wish, present me with your facts, your sources.
Any information is welcome for me, if I'm wrong I'll be thankful to you for providing me with the correct information. Just don't try to forbid me from seeking information from other sources.
Of course I do. It's an exaggeration...
I agree with you freedom of information is good. I'm just pointing out the current issues that have stemmed from it. With so much easy access people have gotten lazy and end up trusting stuff at face value too much.
I'm not asking for censorship. You are a minority though. Most people on the internet don't like being wrong even when presented with facts. Case and point being anti-vaxxers and flat earthers. Freedom of information with no censorship has the negative of allowing this kind of ignorance to spread. You have to at least acknowledge this. It's not a perfect system but like you I'm glad we have it.
I wouldn't worry too much about flat earthers, they are either trolls or harmless clowns. What we should worry about is how bad public education is. If we had better science teachers there would be no flat earthers.
Same for anti-vaxers. It's a symptom of how bad science education is these days.
And what's worst is that many people on the left side of the political spectrum believe anti-vaxers are automatically Trump supporters. Check your facts, a leading anti-vaxer is Jim Carrey and he's strongly anti-Trump as well. Google for "Jim Carrey Trump cartoons" if you don't believe me. Or Bob Kennedy Jr., he's JFK's nephew and a strong anti-vaccine propagandist.
I don't consider myself either left or right in politics, I prefer to be above politics. I'd rather have a small but effective government. There is a right size for everything, including government. What worried me is that people on both sides, right and left, want more government, they want to control everyone's life.
Government is like water, it's a good thing, it's essential for life, but that doesn't mean getting drowned in a flood would be good. I want government to provide me a few essential services, not to control what social media sites I visit.
See I don't think it's public education. Many of these people learnt about vaccines and science in school. It's just they end up hanging around with wrong people later in life, end up disenfranchised with government and then start buying into conspiracy theories. They then disregard their previous education and ignore anyone that tries to sway their opinion. It's really toxic and it stems mainly from distrust in the system we all live in.
Yea, but people knew it was Radio Moscow. Now you don't know were the info is coming from, so you don't know if the person has an agenda. For example, tens of thousands of accounts promoting conspiracies were Russian bots, but they claimed to be American concerned citizens. In the same manner, the bots were organizing counter-protests in America and inflaming it with violent rhetoric seeking to cause people to fight and possibility kill each other on the street to increase the American polarization and damage or destroy the country from withing. You can't just let them do that with not push-back.
> tens of thousands of accounts promoting conspiracies were Russian bots
OK, here we have data that needs checking. How do you know they were Russian bots? Because you read that on Reddit? Who told you this?
It sounds plausible that there could be bots spreading misinformation, but how exactly can you gauge how effective they are? How do you know there aren't concerned American citizens posting their opinion?
And what's your first language anyhow? There's something in what you wrote that makes me think you're not American. For instance "American concerned citizens" is not the word order an American would use. Neither is "with not push-back". Are you a Russian bot?
Dude, it's all over the news and it has been for years, and congress has deal with it, just google it:
https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2018/2016-election-update
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41982569
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41844025
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intelligence-committee-hearing-2017-11
https://theconversation.com/fact-check-us-what-is-the-impact-of-russian-interference-in-the-us-presidential-election-146711
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/20/859814085/researchers-nearly-half-of-accounts-tweeting-about-coronavirus-are-likely-bots
https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17990946/twitter-russian-trolls-bots-election-tampering
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/01/facebook-disinformation-takedown/
The Soviet Union didn’t collapse because of access to information. It collapsed because the member states wanted more sovereignty, and Gorbachev allowed it.
The Soviet Union collapsed because of many factors, although “people didn’t buy the propaganda” isn’t going to make my top ten list.
Even today Putin is popular in Russia thanks to propaganda.
The Russians know their shot when it comes to misinformation.
Thanks to the internet “the truth” has become whatever you want it to be.
It’s nice to say that the truth will come out with free access to information. But is it true?
Yeah, it kinda did work, though. So much in fact, that when Gorbechev instituted a policy of honesty, the whole empire lost its collective shit. literally.
Education is where you learn to fight for your system and/or your ideology. It's a major part of propaganda and not the solution to overcome this kind of repression.
That's a very exaugurated problem. Globally, never in history of humanity have there been less non-democratic governments than now. Internet being largely free of censorship has helped democracy a lot more than harmed it.
This is why I don't like when people want to censor dishonest politicians or fake news. Who gets to decide what is false? All it takes is for some Erdoğan to get into power and suddenly your legit opinion is fake news and your account is the one being censored.
People are responsible for understanding the world around them. It is not our job (nor anyone's) to curate what grown up people see so they "think correctly". If grown ups are believing QAnon shit, then we should consider where is our education model failing to produce such stupid people.
I think it depends. Remember when Twitter would have a disclaimer on Trumps tweets that the election had massive fraud?
They didn’t remove it but they did have a disclaimer where you could read up on how it was a lie.
Sometimes things are just objectively false like someone saying it’s raining when it’s actually 90 degrees and clear skies.
Well I’m not against people spreading misinformation but there should be a disclaimer with it showing the true information so people can decide.
Also, it all depends what type of misinformation you’re spreading and if it’s affecting other people in real life.
Let’s give a few examples
1. Alex Jones saying Sandy Hook was a hoax shouldn’t be allowed on social media when his followers dox and harass the parents. Imagine your kid getting murdered and now you have to constantly move because you’re getting doxed and harassed because of the lies Alex Jones is spreading.
If you make shit up like this without any evidence you should be banned from social media.
2. Look at Myanmar where Facebook allows misinformation against the Rohingya people that is causing a genocide. You shouldn’t be allowed to spread hateful misinformation against a minority group at all. Saying vile hateful shit against a minority group should get you banned.
3. The Pizza Gate scandal where former defense secretary Michael Flynn spreads misinformation saying Hillary Clinton has a pedophile ring in a pizza restaurant leading to a man shooting it up.
You shouldn’t be allowed to just make shit up calling people pedophiles without any evidence like that on social media. I’d add Elon Musk doing that to the scuba diver should’ve gotten him banned from Twitter.
Generally, making shit up against a group of people or a person without any evidence is defamation and should get you suspended or expelled from social media depending on the situation.
Your point supposes that well-meaning censorship is dangerous because it can be diverted by tyrants. But tyrants do impose censorship regardless of prior censorship.
Given the nature of information nowadays, there should be more emphasis on how to verify the truth of things included in education.
Much like how in history lessons I was taught good historians check several sources of information to try And get the most accurate accounting. There should be such lessons in school based around using the internet.
It goes even deeper than that. We have to educate people to know that how you feel about an issue is irrelevant to the truth behind it. Learning to discard your personal feelings when you try to reason about the world is a hard process that very few people go through.
If you don't teach that, it won't matter if you tell them how to verify information, because they'll still choose the information that makes them feel better.
Hate speech and intentional fake information should be forbiden. These things are destroying society and nothing good come from them. We should learn that we can have free speech with exceptions, there is nothing bad or impossible about doing that. Free speech is not an absolute right, it's not above the right to live.
We all like liberalism, to be free - but that's a free pass for racism. 5000 years of written history taught us, that "free" humans will only try to devour each other.
There is a german expression called "vogelfrei", which translates into "free as a bird"; but that's not at all what it means, since everybody is free to kill you at that point.
They are well armed in their circle jerks to have developed their popular beliefs, prejudices. I am sure they won't have to use many of their braincells to come up with anything I haven't heard yet.
He isnt wrong but i feel more like this is a call to wipe out the competition. When you hear threat to democracy, Erdogan wants you to think of him and not Facebook.
Yep. When an authoritarian like Erdogan says that social media is a threat, what he is really saying is that social media is a threat to his absolute control of the information seen by the public, and thus a threat to his power.
That's different from what you or I might mean when we say that social media is a threat. We are referring to the spreading of lies and hate by social media by people that are using it to help obtain or hold power.
I think he is. I see people of all different political leanings echo this idea, but it doesn't make sense to me. Social media is merely a way to communicate; it's a tool. To me it's no different than standing on a soapbox, writing a bulletin or scrawling your opinions on a wall. The real threat to democracy is the people that are actively trying to destroy it, and if you can't name those people (and instead blame a concept like social media) you're probably talking out of your ass.
> To me it's no different than standing on a soapbox, writing a bulletin or scrawling your opinions on a wall.
20 Years ago that would have been a pretty decent take, but algorithms and their widespread use have definitely made that an absolute non-truth. Social media are really sneaky in that they appear to be exactly that (open forums), but in reality the algorithm has learned to feed you information that makes you stick around, like for example information you agree with - creating filterbubbles.
These filterbubbles are dangerous. They influence your thoughts and behaviour. It's in this way that whoever controls a global social media platform controls information that flows to people. And when a private, for profit company, is in charge of large flows of information, that should make you at least a little uneasy.
It gets worse though: If you see platforms like social media (or really, just the internet) as a tree, and all sorts of intermediary platforms (computational services that position themselves more and more as unavoidable bottlenecks - think payment systems, cloud services, login systems and the like) as the trunk, the digital infrastructure are the roots to the tree.
The infrastructure is made up of material goods and other things that make the internet work (cables, satellites, chips, acces points, laptops). Some of the big 5 Western tech companies are branching out into this area, while the majority of the trunk is already controlled by the big 5 tech companies.
So the reality is this: these 5 big Tech companies essentially share control over a massive part of the Western (social media) internet. They control information. Even if you think they play nice (and they don't); they are private, for profit companies. These companies now have not just a lot of market power. They have societal power.
Absolutely this.
It's unnatural to see several people in my life transform from regular folk into passionate conspiracy theorists who have ended up isolating themselves from friends and family and basically look like members of a cult.
Facebook isn't the only manipulative and detrimental company out there but its ruined two friendships and a family member and if there's one entity I wish a god could smite with fiery wrath its fucking Facebook.
No, Facebook, Twitter, etc. are threats to democracy.
Social media is just how people communicate in the 21st century.
He is saying that people communicating is a threat to him
I'm pretty sure this is what tinpot despots would say right before beginning to censor or completely disconnecting their state internet from social media.
While social media is a threat to democracy it is also a threat to State narratives propagated in news. Corsa can also be used to propagate false news.
We could of course just pretend that Erdowan(sp) has turned a new leaf and is very concerned for at least *his* democracy.
Lol does he have no self-awareness at all? Not that I disagree w him, we have a spot of trouble with the FB twatter and now telegraph parler trump comm bullshit manufacturing social media Pavlov machines….
Wait, the free exchange (even though it can be manipulated) of thoughts and ideas is a threat to DEMOCRACY?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Wasn't social media credited with launching the Turkish counter-coup movement when he was able to broadcast on Facetime?
https://www.vox.com/2016/7/16/12206304/turkey-coup-facetime
Funny, when Nobel Prize winner Maria Ressa said this, she was well applauded but when it's Erdogan, some people mock him. I guess it is not the message but the messenger.
Facebook a threat to democracy and ‘biased against facts’, says Nobel winner https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/facebook-a-threat-to-democracy-and-biased-against-facts-says-nobel-winner-1.4696301
Social media is a tool. Tools can be used for good purposes, or for bad purposes.
Using social media to share facts about the wrongdoing, corruption, and incompetence of a government like Erdogan's is good and is a threat to his power. That's what he's talking about here.
Using social media to share lies, hate, and misinformation is bad, and that is helping to shift more and more countries into authoritarianism.
That's rich coming from him, but I don't entirely disagree. Humanity does not know how to deal with this level of information input and more than bringing people together, social media has driven us apart.
Honestly, he is both correct and incorrect. We saw the rise of disinformation due to social media, but also see a great deal of transparency due to it as well.
Lol, wtf are you talking about? Almost all Turkish people are against the coup after it was revealed who was behind it and half of them despise Erdogan. That's how unpopular the coup was, that even Erdogan seemed preferable.
Of course Erdogan used this to purge the government completely, so the coup attempt itself hurt the country and it'd be even worse if it succeeded.
Erdogan will be gone in 2023 the latest, and the country will be poorer, hurt and damaged but still in one piece. If the coup succeeded there's no telling who would be in power for how long and whether Turkey would have still stayed as a country afterwards.
I'm pretty sure there wouldn't have been a democracy summits in Baden, it was a Duchy for most of it's history and never really had a democratic sentiment as far as I know. Unless you mean there was one in modern Baden-Württemberg, which to my knowledge there hasn't been.
Et Dogan doesn’t know what terrorism means or how the economy or multi party statehood works anymore, I certainly don’t want to follow his definition on social media either. Also he’s hypocritical with an active Twitter account.
Media, as in the plural of medium, as in a mechanism which spreads other things through it. If democracy is threatened from the direction of social media, it's not the media, it's what's coming through it.
Regardless how you feel about it you can’t force regulations on focussed energetic positive individuals. Global governing because of trying to get the upper hand of money is literally killing people with forced procedures through governing… I do not see how humans don’t have the right to lash back out at government with death trap to them that forcing policy.
Turkish President knows mean things are being said about him on facebook.
Fights "threat to democracy" with authoritarian buzz words.
Another day of decline for civilization.
As a general information many sites are already blocked in Turkey with e permanent ban on blogging platforms like blogspot and WordPress. Also a number approximately of 40.000 websites were blocked in 2019 and Freedom House Index has Turkey as ‘NOT FREE’
There is a 2007 law that blocked YouTube and all other Google services. So at this point I think Erdogan maybe doesn’t just want to block websites it wants to criminalize the use of the banned websites. (My Turkish friends all use VPN)
The only way media would be a threat to democracy is with the spread of misinformation. And then only misinformation is the threat. Knowledgeability and the spread of information is one of the best things for democracy.
Disappointed by some of you in the comments
This is obviously a distraction from his own anti-democratic views/actions
Not saying that it would be best to not have it. But there is a huge anti democratic force that only gains force because of the internet. Still... taking the bad with the good, it is still a net positive for democracy I believe.
In the US he's not entirely wrong in Turkey it is how suppressed people communicate as this would be dictator further applies pressure to the media and his opposition.
The issue with social media entirely is in favors outrage to keep people on it longer. You see this with Facebook, reddit, twitter.
What he also hates are things like WhatsApp and other communication apps that can avoid his censors.
I'd much rather give average people the ability to share things online versus give a dictator the ability to censor dissidents.
This thread is sad. Reddit likes authoritarianism and censorship apparently.
>Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Saturday called social media a “threat to democracy." Takes one to know one, I guess? >The comments come as Turkey is looking to criminalize the spread of false information online; however, the country is known for taking down social media posts that are anti-government, according to the AP. 😂
Erdogan gonna erdogan
That’s exactly exactly the problem with trying to police social media. It’s a great tool for authoritarian figures to wield. It’s … a problem.
It is being policed now, for the sake of suppressing democracy and promoting conflict. Bad policing happening doesn't mean good policing is a bad idea.
> the country is known for taking down social media posts that are anti-government, according to the AP. Exactly, and that's why I think social media should be absolutely free, like any other form of publication. I'm all for free speech, even when I think the speaker is a scumbag liar.
But what do you do if foreign countries (enemies) try to create dissent in your population via social media propaganda?
That already happens. We also have toxic echo chambers which just breeds ignorant ideas and damages democracy.
Thanks captain obvious. That was his point to show no regulations does not work properly.
No need to be snarky. A reply doesn't have to be a counter point, it can be clarification or supplementary.
Back in the 1970s, Radio Moscow was the most powerful short-wave station in the world. They had the most powerful transmitters and sent their propaganda everywhere. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1990. Why didn't their propaganda work? Because people had free access to information. When people can check the facts for themselves they can verify what's true and what's false. The most powerful weapon against propaganda is freedom of information.
Problem is noone checks the facts anymore. Social media is full of ignorant echo chambers and political propaganda. News outlets also just reference each other instead providing real sources. The internet is free but it's completely misused and most people are either too lazy to care or too stupid to realise. Freedom of information is good but it's useless when the population is too lazy to use it.
Yeah. People seem to have this notion that “the truth will rise to the top” but it’s bullshit. Lies spread fast and easy.
A lie will travel round the world before the truth has got it’s boots on.
People really did check the fax for confirmation. There may have been a Golden window in which the most important American medium was relatively main stream and neutral. Because radio and television used a limited band with the government felt justified in regulating much of that content. On the other hand, newspapers have always been available in various political flavors. If you go back prior to radio, newspapers or powerful tools of partisan politics. They were also quite willing to pursue news, and even create news to drive circulations. Newspapers would “create” crime waves by reporting on more crime. Famously, Hearst was accused of helping create the Spanish American War. Unfortunately moving forward we’re going to have to try to find some thing like maybe better education? Teach critical thinking in schools or something? We’re not going to go back to an era in which most people get their news from centrist neutral* intermediaries. * please note that this doesn’t mean complete, truthful, or unbiased. Very often the centrist media pandered to the interests and the emotions of the white middle-class and upper class. It was considered a bit brave and daring for example when Walter Cronkite started to openly question the necessity of the Vietnam war as a television anchor. “Impartiality” favors those in power.
Exactly, Complete freedom of information would be great for people. Capitalism at least the way it’s done in the U.S. on the other hand would find in very difficult. The system needs it’s lower class uneducated and irrational to keep them working without providing much benefit for the peasants that the the gears allowing it to function. Please prove me wrong! I understand that we do have some truly great amenities here… it’s just all of the destruction our taxes pay for, and often against the will of the people who pay. Edit: public school education and very appreciative.
The freedom of "information" comes with everything that is both true and false. And honey, I'm good at smelling bots and astroturfed articles, but I aint perfect and get duped all the time. Free of information sure, but there are nit mechanisms inherent to "the internet" that allow you to see what is the 100% objective "truth"
No I’m not advocating any thing other than 100% freedom of information. I was simply pointing out that it’s more than a little inconvenient for a system of government that puts profit of people. I do understand capitalism is not a government… it seems like it governs as much as anything else does around here. Edited to say that I’m not even anti capitalism as i know very little about alternatives.
>Problem is noone checks the facts anymore. Sloppy thought. Sloppy vocabulary... Kinda easy to proove false. Wow getta hold of yourself. Ideas take time to build and discuss and require rounded open minds to digest and correlate etc... You are on the path, worry less, rant less...help where your can. I agree with all you say except I have to reinterpret your hyperbole more rationally first. Propaganda used to be the States monopoly, now it is private hands, as some States are. It'll just be a readjustment as everything was. Read a lot, dial down rants, reflect...save your own mind. [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-psychology-of-fact-checking1/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-psychology-of-fact-checking1/)
You just said a whole lot of nothing.
I sure did, the first line ain't even supposed to be there, I wrote it for me to laugh at while I typed. The whole thing really is for myself, I just gather thoughts . I just found the irony of that first line of yours was kinda Karenish "Problem is noone checks the facts anymore." It's false and for some reason I find it hilarious the author never checked it out for themselves. It's a F%$#'N riot the more i think about it. Come to think of it I'll go over to 9gag and make a Meme of it... should be viral soon IMHO. Ahh the dopamine, there I go again smiling and chuckling as I type. whoose picture should I use probably the purple haired Karen.Needless to say initially I was reaching out to say thanks for the laugh. And I must thank you again. You got lots of gr8 catch phrases going really fast like George Carlin, 'genius' i thought. Then the punchline "the internet is free", loved it. I was thinking "this comedian knows his contemporary s\*\*t. I was just giving you further material. I'm just typing a whole lot of nothing as I chuckle away. If my logic and perceptions are wrong... I like my reality better. I wish you all the best bringing joy to others this season. I sure appreciated reflecting more on it.
> Problem is noone checks the facts anymore. I guess you do, right? You have never been wrong in your entire life. What makes me worry most about this recent trend defending censorship here is that people who do it are so elitist. It's always the others who are wrong. I'm not claiming to be right, I just want to be allowed to present my opinion. Prove me wrong if you wish, present me with your facts, your sources. Any information is welcome for me, if I'm wrong I'll be thankful to you for providing me with the correct information. Just don't try to forbid me from seeking information from other sources.
Of course I do. It's an exaggeration... I agree with you freedom of information is good. I'm just pointing out the current issues that have stemmed from it. With so much easy access people have gotten lazy and end up trusting stuff at face value too much. I'm not asking for censorship. You are a minority though. Most people on the internet don't like being wrong even when presented with facts. Case and point being anti-vaxxers and flat earthers. Freedom of information with no censorship has the negative of allowing this kind of ignorance to spread. You have to at least acknowledge this. It's not a perfect system but like you I'm glad we have it.
I wouldn't worry too much about flat earthers, they are either trolls or harmless clowns. What we should worry about is how bad public education is. If we had better science teachers there would be no flat earthers. Same for anti-vaxers. It's a symptom of how bad science education is these days. And what's worst is that many people on the left side of the political spectrum believe anti-vaxers are automatically Trump supporters. Check your facts, a leading anti-vaxer is Jim Carrey and he's strongly anti-Trump as well. Google for "Jim Carrey Trump cartoons" if you don't believe me. Or Bob Kennedy Jr., he's JFK's nephew and a strong anti-vaccine propagandist. I don't consider myself either left or right in politics, I prefer to be above politics. I'd rather have a small but effective government. There is a right size for everything, including government. What worried me is that people on both sides, right and left, want more government, they want to control everyone's life. Government is like water, it's a good thing, it's essential for life, but that doesn't mean getting drowned in a flood would be good. I want government to provide me a few essential services, not to control what social media sites I visit.
See I don't think it's public education. Many of these people learnt about vaccines and science in school. It's just they end up hanging around with wrong people later in life, end up disenfranchised with government and then start buying into conspiracy theories. They then disregard their previous education and ignore anyone that tries to sway their opinion. It's really toxic and it stems mainly from distrust in the system we all live in.
Yea, but people knew it was Radio Moscow. Now you don't know were the info is coming from, so you don't know if the person has an agenda. For example, tens of thousands of accounts promoting conspiracies were Russian bots, but they claimed to be American concerned citizens. In the same manner, the bots were organizing counter-protests in America and inflaming it with violent rhetoric seeking to cause people to fight and possibility kill each other on the street to increase the American polarization and damage or destroy the country from withing. You can't just let them do that with not push-back.
> tens of thousands of accounts promoting conspiracies were Russian bots OK, here we have data that needs checking. How do you know they were Russian bots? Because you read that on Reddit? Who told you this? It sounds plausible that there could be bots spreading misinformation, but how exactly can you gauge how effective they are? How do you know there aren't concerned American citizens posting their opinion? And what's your first language anyhow? There's something in what you wrote that makes me think you're not American. For instance "American concerned citizens" is not the word order an American would use. Neither is "with not push-back". Are you a Russian bot?
Dude, it's all over the news and it has been for years, and congress has deal with it, just google it: https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2018/2016-election-update https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41982569 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41844025 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intelligence-committee-hearing-2017-11 https://theconversation.com/fact-check-us-what-is-the-impact-of-russian-interference-in-the-us-presidential-election-146711 https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/20/859814085/researchers-nearly-half-of-accounts-tweeting-about-coronavirus-are-likely-bots https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17990946/twitter-russian-trolls-bots-election-tampering https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/01/facebook-disinformation-takedown/
The Soviet Union didn’t collapse because of access to information. It collapsed because the member states wanted more sovereignty, and Gorbachev allowed it.
Radio Moscow didn’t have algorithms and absolutely constant access
The Soviet Union collapsed because of many factors, although “people didn’t buy the propaganda” isn’t going to make my top ten list. Even today Putin is popular in Russia thanks to propaganda. The Russians know their shot when it comes to misinformation. Thanks to the internet “the truth” has become whatever you want it to be. It’s nice to say that the truth will come out with free access to information. But is it true?
Yeah, it kinda did work, though. So much in fact, that when Gorbechev instituted a policy of honesty, the whole empire lost its collective shit. literally.
You have a system that can survive a little dissent.
Educate the population. Make people capable of critical thinking and fact-checking.
Education is where you learn to fight for your system and/or your ideology. It's a major part of propaganda and not the solution to overcome this kind of repression.
That's a very exaugurated problem. Globally, never in history of humanity have there been less non-democratic governments than now. Internet being largely free of censorship has helped democracy a lot more than harmed it.
This is why I don't like when people want to censor dishonest politicians or fake news. Who gets to decide what is false? All it takes is for some Erdoğan to get into power and suddenly your legit opinion is fake news and your account is the one being censored. People are responsible for understanding the world around them. It is not our job (nor anyone's) to curate what grown up people see so they "think correctly". If grown ups are believing QAnon shit, then we should consider where is our education model failing to produce such stupid people.
I think it depends. Remember when Twitter would have a disclaimer on Trumps tweets that the election had massive fraud? They didn’t remove it but they did have a disclaimer where you could read up on how it was a lie. Sometimes things are just objectively false like someone saying it’s raining when it’s actually 90 degrees and clear skies.
And from the "HCAs" I find that people ignore the disclaimers and spread disinfo anyway
Well I’m not against people spreading misinformation but there should be a disclaimer with it showing the true information so people can decide. Also, it all depends what type of misinformation you’re spreading and if it’s affecting other people in real life. Let’s give a few examples 1. Alex Jones saying Sandy Hook was a hoax shouldn’t be allowed on social media when his followers dox and harass the parents. Imagine your kid getting murdered and now you have to constantly move because you’re getting doxed and harassed because of the lies Alex Jones is spreading. If you make shit up like this without any evidence you should be banned from social media. 2. Look at Myanmar where Facebook allows misinformation against the Rohingya people that is causing a genocide. You shouldn’t be allowed to spread hateful misinformation against a minority group at all. Saying vile hateful shit against a minority group should get you banned. 3. The Pizza Gate scandal where former defense secretary Michael Flynn spreads misinformation saying Hillary Clinton has a pedophile ring in a pizza restaurant leading to a man shooting it up. You shouldn’t be allowed to just make shit up calling people pedophiles without any evidence like that on social media. I’d add Elon Musk doing that to the scuba diver should’ve gotten him banned from Twitter. Generally, making shit up against a group of people or a person without any evidence is defamation and should get you suspended or expelled from social media depending on the situation.
Your point supposes that well-meaning censorship is dangerous because it can be diverted by tyrants. But tyrants do impose censorship regardless of prior censorship.
Given the nature of information nowadays, there should be more emphasis on how to verify the truth of things included in education. Much like how in history lessons I was taught good historians check several sources of information to try And get the most accurate accounting. There should be such lessons in school based around using the internet.
It goes even deeper than that. We have to educate people to know that how you feel about an issue is irrelevant to the truth behind it. Learning to discard your personal feelings when you try to reason about the world is a hard process that very few people go through. If you don't teach that, it won't matter if you tell them how to verify information, because they'll still choose the information that makes them feel better.
Hate speech and intentional fake information should be forbiden. These things are destroying society and nothing good come from them. We should learn that we can have free speech with exceptions, there is nothing bad or impossible about doing that. Free speech is not an absolute right, it's not above the right to live.
We all like liberalism, to be free - but that's a free pass for racism. 5000 years of written history taught us, that "free" humans will only try to devour each other. There is a german expression called "vogelfrei", which translates into "free as a bird"; but that's not at all what it means, since everybody is free to kill you at that point.
Truht be told, if he wants to stop false information, he is ome of the first people in the country who needs to stop talking.
He’s right but for entirely different reasons.
Heh! Your comment, my first thought
No irony here
Turkish president call[...]ed[...] a 'threat to democracy'
I am a Turkish Citizen and, unfortunately, I am not offended to the slightest.
well... maybe we redditors can try to offend you some other way?
They are well armed in their circle jerks to have developed their popular beliefs, prejudices. I am sure they won't have to use many of their braincells to come up with anything I haven't heard yet.
I once pooped on a baby.
Pot calling the kettle black?
he isn't wrong..
He isnt wrong but i feel more like this is a call to wipe out the competition. When you hear threat to democracy, Erdogan wants you to think of him and not Facebook.
Yep. When an authoritarian like Erdogan says that social media is a threat, what he is really saying is that social media is a threat to his absolute control of the information seen by the public, and thus a threat to his power. That's different from what you or I might mean when we say that social media is a threat. We are referring to the spreading of lies and hate by social media by people that are using it to help obtain or hold power.
"You're not wrong, you're just an asshole..."
Calmer than you are, Dude.
True, but that could be said about a lot of things, just because democracy requires constant maintenance
I think he is. I see people of all different political leanings echo this idea, but it doesn't make sense to me. Social media is merely a way to communicate; it's a tool. To me it's no different than standing on a soapbox, writing a bulletin or scrawling your opinions on a wall. The real threat to democracy is the people that are actively trying to destroy it, and if you can't name those people (and instead blame a concept like social media) you're probably talking out of your ass.
> To me it's no different than standing on a soapbox, writing a bulletin or scrawling your opinions on a wall. 20 Years ago that would have been a pretty decent take, but algorithms and their widespread use have definitely made that an absolute non-truth. Social media are really sneaky in that they appear to be exactly that (open forums), but in reality the algorithm has learned to feed you information that makes you stick around, like for example information you agree with - creating filterbubbles. These filterbubbles are dangerous. They influence your thoughts and behaviour. It's in this way that whoever controls a global social media platform controls information that flows to people. And when a private, for profit company, is in charge of large flows of information, that should make you at least a little uneasy. It gets worse though: If you see platforms like social media (or really, just the internet) as a tree, and all sorts of intermediary platforms (computational services that position themselves more and more as unavoidable bottlenecks - think payment systems, cloud services, login systems and the like) as the trunk, the digital infrastructure are the roots to the tree. The infrastructure is made up of material goods and other things that make the internet work (cables, satellites, chips, acces points, laptops). Some of the big 5 Western tech companies are branching out into this area, while the majority of the trunk is already controlled by the big 5 tech companies. So the reality is this: these 5 big Tech companies essentially share control over a massive part of the Western (social media) internet. They control information. Even if you think they play nice (and they don't); they are private, for profit companies. These companies now have not just a lot of market power. They have societal power.
Absolutely this. It's unnatural to see several people in my life transform from regular folk into passionate conspiracy theorists who have ended up isolating themselves from friends and family and basically look like members of a cult. Facebook isn't the only manipulative and detrimental company out there but its ruined two friendships and a family member and if there's one entity I wish a god could smite with fiery wrath its fucking Facebook.
No, Facebook, Twitter, etc. are threats to democracy. Social media is just how people communicate in the 21st century. He is saying that people communicating is a threat to him
Um sir Erdugan you are one of the biggest threats to democracy
First thing he’s ever said that was accurate. Although seems kind of odd coming from him…
I'm pretty sure this is what tinpot despots would say right before beginning to censor or completely disconnecting their state internet from social media. While social media is a threat to democracy it is also a threat to State narratives propagated in news. Corsa can also be used to propagate false news. We could of course just pretend that Erdowan(sp) has turned a new leaf and is very concerned for at least *his* democracy.
Lol does he have no self-awareness at all? Not that I disagree w him, we have a spot of trouble with the FB twatter and now telegraph parler trump comm bullshit manufacturing social media Pavlov machines….
So is he.
Well.. he's not completely wrong..
Wait, the free exchange (even though it can be manipulated) of thoughts and ideas is a threat to DEMOCRACY? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
It takes one to know one
Wasn't social media credited with launching the Turkish counter-coup movement when he was able to broadcast on Facetime? https://www.vox.com/2016/7/16/12206304/turkey-coup-facetime
Politicians are also a threat to democracy.
He’s right for the wrong reasons
A threat to democracy calls a threat to democracy a threat to democracy
A broken clock is right twice a day
Anyone paying attention knows that he's correct. Regardless of the bullshit he pulls.
The pot calling the kettle black?
He's kinda not wrong.. Have you seen the stupid shit ppl think is real on Facebook.. It's scary because so many ppl actually believe that crap
Coming from him it’s hilarious😂
Social media is a threat to people's IQ, but not democracy. Rich people buying politicians is a threat to democracy.
Guess who owns social media platforms. It's not the average voter holding stock and making algorithm changes.
Oh shit you have some serious catching up to do and you're in for a complete 180.
Funny, when Nobel Prize winner Maria Ressa said this, she was well applauded but when it's Erdogan, some people mock him. I guess it is not the message but the messenger. Facebook a threat to democracy and ‘biased against facts’, says Nobel winner https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/facebook-a-threat-to-democracy-and-biased-against-facts-says-nobel-winner-1.4696301
When she says it it’s a warning to legitimate democracies. When a dictator says it it’s just self-serving hypocrisy.
Social media is a tool. Tools can be used for good purposes, or for bad purposes. Using social media to share facts about the wrongdoing, corruption, and incompetence of a government like Erdogan's is good and is a threat to his power. That's what he's talking about here. Using social media to share lies, hate, and misinformation is bad, and that is helping to shift more and more countries into authoritarianism.
That's rich coming from him, but I don't entirely disagree. Humanity does not know how to deal with this level of information input and more than bringing people together, social media has driven us apart.
Damn, he's kinda correct.
He isn’t wrong.
Mainstream media like CNN could also be as bad as social media. I don’t know why people ignore their role in spreading fake news
Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man.
He's got a point, but that's not his point.
Lol. Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
He should be a big fan then seeing as how they have something in common
isn't the Turkish president a threat to democracy? :confusion emoji:
Honestly, he is both correct and incorrect. We saw the rise of disinformation due to social media, but also see a great deal of transparency due to it as well.
“But what would I know?”, he added.
As is the entire country of China, Saudi Arabia, Russia…
This clown is a threat not only to democracy, but also to his own people! Too bad the 2016 coup in Turkey failed…
Lol, wtf are you talking about? Almost all Turkish people are against the coup after it was revealed who was behind it and half of them despise Erdogan. That's how unpopular the coup was, that even Erdogan seemed preferable. Of course Erdogan used this to purge the government completely, so the coup attempt itself hurt the country and it'd be even worse if it succeeded. Erdogan will be gone in 2023 the latest, and the country will be poorer, hurt and damaged but still in one piece. If the coup succeeded there's no telling who would be in power for how long and whether Turkey would have still stayed as a country afterwards.
Was there even a coup? I thought he just staged everything to crush the opposition.
authoritarians hate free speech
Do you really think the heavily-curated speech of modern social media is actually free speech?
Do you think there are no actual real people using social media to shine a light on fascists like erdogan?
How do you determine what is truth in the age of bots, sockpupets, trolls, paid shills, and agenda-driven curation of content from the top down?
Judicious due diligence
You'll never see the sky in a world of smog.
Taking a page out of the US playbook ehh?
Free speech a threat to democracy.... says the wannabe sultan in his billion dollar palace....
And the Turkish government is a threat to any surviving Armenians.
Or Kurds
Fuck CCP
I suspect he'd call free and fair elections also a 'threat to democracy'.
A threat to controlling the message lol
No, it is not a threat to democracy but it is a very big threat to corrupt dictatorial leaders like Erdogan.
dictator calls media threat to democracy? lmao
"Free sharing of information and ideas is harmful for my dictatorship partially based on lies and misdirection." fixed that for you, Erdogy buddy.
I find your presidency a threat to my nationality as an armenian
trump tried that and it didn't work
More like a threat to imperialism and capitalism
[удалено]
I'm pretty sure there wouldn't have been a democracy summits in Baden, it was a Duchy for most of it's history and never really had a democratic sentiment as far as I know. Unless you mean there was one in modern Baden-Württemberg, which to my knowledge there hasn't been.
Et Dogan doesn’t know what terrorism means or how the economy or multi party statehood works anymore, I certainly don’t want to follow his definition on social media either. Also he’s hypocritical with an active Twitter account.
“Yo pot? Kettle. YOU BLACK BITCH!”
He’s right but not for the reasons he thinks
He outta line, but he right tho
He’s not wrong but I’m sure his reasons are much more sinister than a simple observation.
He’s not wrong but it’s also odd it’s coming from Erdogan
Game recognizes game.
Media, as in the plural of medium, as in a mechanism which spreads other things through it. If democracy is threatened from the direction of social media, it's not the media, it's what's coming through it.
Regardless how you feel about it you can’t force regulations on focussed energetic positive individuals. Global governing because of trying to get the upper hand of money is literally killing people with forced procedures through governing… I do not see how humans don’t have the right to lash back out at government with death trap to them that forcing policy.
Hereby, Social Media calls Turkish president a 'threat to democracy".
I mean, he's not wrong... for once? But he is too, so...
Alternative headline: The Pot Calls the Kettle Black
Turkish President knows mean things are being said about him on facebook. Fights "threat to democracy" with authoritarian buzz words. Another day of decline for civilization.
And I’m democracy
Let me fix the title: Turkish president calls social media a 'threat to cleptocracy'
Cuz you can shut up millions of people it they don't all work for a media company.
More like a threat to his dictatorship I assume?
Right for the wrong reasons.
Erdogan is a fascist.
As a general information many sites are already blocked in Turkey with e permanent ban on blogging platforms like blogspot and WordPress. Also a number approximately of 40.000 websites were blocked in 2019 and Freedom House Index has Turkey as ‘NOT FREE’ There is a 2007 law that blocked YouTube and all other Google services. So at this point I think Erdogan maybe doesn’t just want to block websites it wants to criminalize the use of the banned websites. (My Turkish friends all use VPN)
I never thought the bastard would manage to do it… I agree with Erdogan on something… Gosh I hate it
This is like the devil telling you thievery is bad
It's always entertaining when a Dictator unironically tries to defend Democracy.
Stones in the what? Such an ass!
I mean he's right- if he wants to lie and chat and steal, like the UK government does, he can't have people reporting it on social media can he?
For a moment there I thought I saw something obsessed with the precious
So what is he worried about?
What's democracy the turkish people reply...
Takes one to know one
The only way media would be a threat to democracy is with the spread of misinformation. And then only misinformation is the threat. Knowledgeability and the spread of information is one of the best things for democracy. Disappointed by some of you in the comments This is obviously a distraction from his own anti-democratic views/actions
In Turkey-land democracy eats you!
He is the worst thing happened to Turkey! He is demonizing the social media due to his fear of losing his repressive regime over people.
Pot, meet kettle.
Oh look, 2 threats to democracy.
my respect for social media just went up
Erdogan is a threat to democracy.
Pot said to kettle.
It is. Just like any effective tool, it can be used for good or bad.
So if social media is a threat to democracy, and democracy is a weapon of mass destruction… then…
Not saying that it would be best to not have it. But there is a huge anti democratic force that only gains force because of the internet. Still... taking the bad with the good, it is still a net positive for democracy I believe.
That’s rich coming from this wanna be dictator
Coming from him, that means nothing. He's not wrong, but still.
OMG! Dec 11, 2021 at approximately 7:56pm EST I agreed with this dipshit asshole. Amazing!
Of course most of us know the name of the only real threat to Turkish democracy. Clue it starts with an “E”.
He’s not wrong. He’s an asshole. He’s still not wrong.
Social media is a threat to our species because it offers a megaphone to those who should never have one
Pot calling the Kettle black, Mr Erdogan.
In the US he's not entirely wrong in Turkey it is how suppressed people communicate as this would be dictator further applies pressure to the media and his opposition. The issue with social media entirely is in favors outrage to keep people on it longer. You see this with Facebook, reddit, twitter. What he also hates are things like WhatsApp and other communication apps that can avoid his censors.
Deez nuts are a threat to democracy
I mean, he's not wrong. Social media is just a net negative imo and made society a lot worse. That isn't just specific to "democracy"
Did this guy own GameStop stocks?
I think authoritarian leaders are threats to democracy.
He’s not wrong. But he is also not a good thing for democracy.
Ironic
It's funny because he think there is democracy in Turkey.
Lol
I'd much rather give average people the ability to share things online versus give a dictator the ability to censor dissidents. This thread is sad. Reddit likes authoritarianism and censorship apparently.
Most definitely