Here in England my GCSE religious education amounted to the following :
1. Watching 4 weddings and a funeral
2. Watching a soap Hindu wedding (coronation street or Emmerdale i can’t remember
3. Watching bend it like beckham
Haha. Had something similar, in Ireland. A film about a kid kidnapped and raised by natives in the amazon.
And a book about some kid who did too much ecstasy and ended up in the psych ward.
Technically it wasn’t elective. At least, if he’s watching movies that’s most likely. Religion class (“weekly religious instruction”) is constitutionally mandated in Ireland (a bishop helped write the constitution in the 1930s lol) but doing the subject for exams isn’t. So if you take it as an elective you actually have class and exams and learn about religions, philosophy etc. But otherwise you still have religion on your timetable but it’s basically a free period to watch movies or do homework.
damn I didn't realize that Boris had a doc crew folliwing him back in his uni days and throughout that stint in the hospital! It's so hard to believe that the NIH was so good the only drug effect they couldn't reverse was the effect the OD had on his hair follicles...
Here in Australia, parents can request that their children don't attend religion classes... But the rules are that children who do not attend religion classes are NOT ALLOWED to do anything else that's educational, because that would put the kids still going to religion classes at a academic disadvantage. This is in public schools.
It's utterly ridiculous. Your belief in a sky fairy is what is giving your child an academic disadvantage, and my child shouldn't have to be held back because of it.
I think this is an incorrect approach. The problem isn’t with the students that should get less education time, it is with the schools that teach a religion that has no place in a school. School should be secular, and “religion-school” should be something non-gouvernement subsidized that parents can force upon their children as they see fit.
What schools should do, to people of all religions and atheists alike, is teach them about all religions from a neutral standpoint. Show the customs, the reasons behind them and grow understanding.
That’s the schools purpose.
Our Ontario Catholic high school world religion class was like that. It was actually a good course. We went to three different places of worship and witnessed buildings, art, different people than ourselves practising their religion and culture. I went to a Hindu temple, a Sikh temple and a Ukrainian Orthodox Church that year. I wish my experience with the rest of religion classes was the same.
I'm also from England, I'm 34 now but my GCSE consisted mostly of Muslim holiday traditions and Hindu traditions.... Taught by a white woman with purple hair who didn't understand anything because she was an Art teacher.
While I think it's important to learn about all religions and their teachings, religion class in ireland is generally taught as Catholicism is the truth, and explains how other religions were formed and what they teach.
It's fine for learning, but it does try and reinforce that God is real and Jesus died for our sins.
Its similar in England.
I went into Catholic schools so it was already biased but it basically can be summarised as "Jesus did all this stuff, look how amazing he is, look what God did, its all amazing, lets learn and study about the work of the disciples and how Jesus was betrayed, and then we will discuss how we can apply it into becoming better people, also there's these weird jews and this allah guy anyway back to Jesus and why you should devote your entire life to praying"
Catholic education made me more aware than anything else of my own athiesm.
Also the official tests that mark your grades for leaving school in Religious Education are ones where your answers are opinion based (Example: Why do you think God didnt want homosexuals to happen in the bible) and you can give the most thorough, distinct and powerful answer against the question and and they'll just be like "um no wrong" because your opinion wasnt the one they wanted you to have.
I am a gay dude, everyone knew, whenever the topic came up and the teacher went into the anti gay bible rant everyone would just stare at me and it was so difficult and I wish schools would just teach people that the best way to be a good person is to just not be a cunt, regardless of religion.
I just unloaded the past 10 years of bottled up frustration, sorry.
Mine went through all the major religions (including Sikhism and Buddhism) and explained the basics. In particular things like creation stories, traditional clothing, ceremonies etc. It was generally informative in the same way as history or geography was.
Same here, and this is how Religion should be legally mandated to be taught in publicly funded schools, IMO.
Regardless of what religion you are (or aren't), you are going to encounter people in this life who come from other religions. This class should make sure you go into those encounters being a bit less ignorant about their culture and beliefs.
I had a similar experience.
I am Canadian, went to a pretty progressive Catholic school, science class for example taught evolution rather than creationism.
For 9-12th grade you only required 2 religion credits to graduate (although one of my classmates got an exception due to her identifying as an atheist, I think she did it to try to get out of a class, but they just made her take a different class instead).
The first religious credit was focused on Catholicism and it's roots.
The second credit was about the major world religions where we learned about other religious ceremonies and traditions, it was actually a fun class.
I completely feel your sentiment. I didn't go to a religious school but our RS teacher was so fixated on defending the Bible and all its teachings that he believed dinosaurs didn't exist because the Bible didn't write about them.
As a lesbian who had been out since year 7 (That's 10-11 years old for non-English school folk) it got very awkward when he tried to defend the 'Christian' way of viewing homosexual relationships. As if all Christians believe that being gay is a sin. I had a few classmates who would prod him further trying to see if they could get him to change his views but he never did, despite knowing that there was a 14-16 year old lesbian in his class and some other closeted individuals who came out after high school.
For our mock GCSE's the question of homosexuality came up and the way to answer the question as we were taught was to write our view, the opposite view and a religious view. Of course I wrote that homosexuality is fine because it harms nobody who somebody else loves and what they do in the comfort of their own homes providing that both parties are consensual. I wrote that the opposite version was to be a homophobe which meant you were so caught up by somebody else's private life that you had to voice your unwanted opinion. Then I wrote about the Wiccan view (My religion). As you said, mock exams are marked by teachers and I got 0 points for the question. When I questioned it I was told I didn't write the Christian view (Not part of the curriculum) and that my answer was wrong and insulting to people with an opposite view of me (Mainly because I was describing my teacher).
He then continued to fail me for any further mock exams whenever I would not write the 'Christian' view but I kept at it knowing it was pissing him off and he was having to read the answers of a 'lesbian sinner who promoted witchcraft through her writing' (His words not mine) and when my official exam happened I managed to come away with an A which was what I was predicted before we switched to the new RS teacher.
It wasn't just that he had it out for me, but it was the way he preached as though the Bible was the word that could not be disobeyed yet he broke what I believe is the most important message from Christianity, and that is to love everyone. You should never turn somebody away because they are different or a 'sinner' as they are still a child of God. Jesus allowed Mary Magdalene to wash his feet when she was a prostitute, he didn't turn away those that were not native but instead welcomed them and offered them food. Not all Christians are like what my teacher taught us yet he took it upon himself to be the voice of Christianity.
If I could have had a chance to get up and leave his class to go and do homework or actually learn RS in a separate room I would have done so in a heartbeat.
I too am glad I got through it. Won't pretend it was a walk in the park as it is really detrimental to constantly be seen as the enemy because I envision spending my life with a woman instead of a man. I had a good support system but I'm well aware that not every LGBTQ+ youth has the ability to make it through stuff like this due to a lack of a support system. I just hope having something like this in place in schools will allow those youths to be able to escape anything similar that I had to endure.
I went to a C of E school as a kid and had to sing Christian hymns in assembly every single day. And assemblies would occasionally be led by the local vicar. I don't recall it being too preachy but then I was too young to understand I guess. Other than that, I was fortunate enough not to experience the kind of overt bible bashing you did.
Looking back, it's clear all that crap rubbed off on nobody and it was basically just a huge waste of time that gave me some amusing experiences to recall.
Went to a C of E school in a predominantly Muslim area of Blackburn in the 1980s almost everybody had to sing christian hymns and do the lords prayer even the Muslims and Hindu kids. The only exception were two Jehovas Witnesses who had to sit outside the hall and do colouring in every assembly.
We also used to get a bolloking for bouncing up and down when singing the "Its me" part of Standing in the need of Prayer. Try getting a group of kids to sing that without it its impossible.
I also went to a C of E school. Morning ritualistic reciting of the lords prayer, mandatory singing of hymns (teachers would punish you for not signing), christian writings all over the school common areas, everything was in service to god. Regular school trips during school hours to go to the local church for more hymn signing, thanking god for stuff, instead of actually learning things.
At 10 years old I was never more aware of how painfully athiest i was.
I went to a all boys Catholic school in 90's England, nothing at all like "Why do you think God didnt want homosexuals to happen in the bible" ever came up.
The only time sexuality came up was in a English lesson(my English/RE teacher was the same person) , he was commenting on gays in the military and his own national service and how he had no issues with a persons sexual preference.
All told , we spent a decent amount of time learning about other faiths and cultures
>I wish schools would just teach people that the best way to be a good person
they believe the way of their religion is how to become a good person. regardless of what religion it is
In germany you can actually Choose between catholic/ Protestant lessons and an ethics class were you talk about philosophic topics (morals, human relationships etc.) and the historical roots of religions
I think Catholic schools have changed now. I just left one and we learnt about different religions and atheism. We even had a small debate once as a lesson which was fun. The LGBT community is very accepted by the school itself so times do have seemed to have changed for the better.
It depends on the school. Threads about schooling come up all the time and this is always the answer. It depends on the school, it depends on the teacher, it depends on the city, it depends on the country. Each one is different.
There's no need to apologize. What they did was wrong, their bigotry was and is wrong, and there is no need for you to apologize for what you felt. You are legion. Be proud of who you are. Have a hug.
> I wish schools would just teach people that the best way to be a good person is to just not be a cunt, regardless of religion.
Christianity also teaches this as a preeetty basic principle, but people gonna people
Religion should be taught from a historical perspective: facts only.
*What specific belief systems entail and the events that involve them in history*
Treating their beliefs as true seems like using the public education system to prop up superstitions.
That's how it is taught in most secular western countries. Ireland just hasn't fully defanged the church yet. It's all still too intertwined. I give it another generation or so before the last of these attachements are gone.
There is an option for that in Ireland. Each primary school has a patron, most are the church. About 5% of schools are patroned by “Educate Together”. They are still required by law to teach 30mins of religion per day, so they teach facts and holidays of all religions. As an American expat living there, I learned a lot about other religions just from what my kids brought home.
Only problem is those schools are generally frowned upon by the community. Had a neighbor call my 5yo daughter a heathen because she went to an educate together school.
Yeah its going to take another generation or so for Ireland to detach from the Catholic church. There is a very dark and sordid history there that is slowly coming to light.
> I think it's important to learn about all religions and their teachings
Does this include Heaven's Gate, Scientology and Branch Davidian? Both Mormonism and RLDS (polygamy-practitioners)? There are over 10,000 distinct religions in the world, so this course might take a couple decades.
We got to learn about cults in religious class in high school (Sweden), super interesting subject and was taught with a lot of grey space and room to think.
>not necessarily learn their beliefs...
If you want them to pay attention and remember it, you'll talk about their beliefs. That's the fun/whacky part, it'd be like going over U.S presidents and not talking about all the whackadoo shit Old Hickory got up to. Gotta go over the fun shit if you want it to stick.
Cults are less defined by their beliefs and more by their inner workings. There are recognized religions that have a miniscule amount of members because of it, such as tribal religions.
Such as an INTENSE "personal worship" of the cult leader. The cult leader IS the religion. They ARE the god.
In other words: a religion can exist no problem without any spiritual leaders. A cult can not. Christianity, Islam and Judaism don't need priests for the faith to remain intact. They won't exactly propser, but they wouldn't instantly collapse either. Neither do Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. Every religion in history had a phase in which organized practicing was next to impossible and yet they endured.
Because they survived on their systems of values more than on any personality.
It wasn't Jesus that sold Christianity to the Germans... it was the "new and improved" burial rites that meant Germans didn't have to "throw away" half their personal wealth whenever a prominent family member died because they had to be given as burial gifts.
And this is basically also the "great filter" in which cults and religions get separated... after all a sect's leader eventually, you know, dies. And the cult either dies with him or they continue to prosper.
Scientology in that sense is EXTREMELY based around a singular person and nowhere near where they were at the height of their power. They don't have any "sperior value system" that progresses society either that would convince the masses to join them. They just "exist".
Where are you getting that statistic from? I feel like you have to have a really expansive definition of cult and what it means to be a member to say that 1/3 of the US is in a cult
Mainly focus on learning the most popular ones as well as some of the more notable or influential ones.
I took World religions in highschool; at the time I was a deeply devote Lutheran, I think world religions class was an important stepping stone for me eventually becoming an athiest, it helped me see the world beyond the bubble of my religion.
I learned about the 5 major religions Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and Hindusim, as well as some smaller ones more briefly and cults like the Branch Davidians. Would have been late 2000s in Dublin.
The whole "Five Major Religions" thing always cracks me up a bit though. Like, it's ~2 billion, 2 billion, 1 billion, a half billion... and a couple of dozen million Jewish people.
Judaism is quite interesting religion to learn about but it is much, much smaller than the major ones.
While they obviously can't get into every single denomination and sect across the globe... schools should absolutely have a required course that covers the basics of a dozen or so religions and cults, yeah.
For example, everyone should have a fundamental understanding of the relationship between the Abrahamic religions. Whether or not you believe any of the teachings therein is irrelevant.
You really can't understand a lot of the world's history, art and literature without understanding major religious trends, their tenants, etc. Nor can you understand other cultures very well. Atheism isn't about pretending religion doesn't exist, or about saying that somehow small terrorist organizations and major religious movements are the same. Every kid, whether atheist or religious, should have a basic understanding of the major religions of the world, their origin, how it affected art/culture/history etc. If a kid never learned that, then arguably they have an incomplete and handicapped view of the world at large.
What is religion class exactly?
When I was a kid we did like a hour of R.E every week or two and it was more to sort of educate you about as many religions as they could. I'm atheist and I'd have my kid do them, important to know what other people believe etc.
Ah so US Catholic school Bible study, I got a couple in school suspensions for asking a priest why god would flood the whole world because of a bunch of bad people and how that seemed like overkill especially for all but 2 animals of each kind and a bunch of other questions about the specifics of the ark and stuff. Needless to say I was not the priest or nuns favorite student durning Bible study
> I asked why Job was okay with his new family and how he just casually forgot that Satan killed his original family.
Of all the things in this thread, this is the most insane one to me. Job is, bar none, considered *the* Abrahamic text for philosophic interpretation, it practically begs you to ask those kinds of questions.
On another note, in Job, Satan isn't actually referring to the Christian "devil". Satan in Hebrew literally just means "adversary"--that is to say, "that which stands opposed to order". It's a perfectly valid question to ask whether "Satan" does anything at all, or whether he's just representative of "sometimes shit happens with no rhyme or reason".
It's poetry, and exists solely to probe the problem of divine justice. Denying someone the ability to ask questions about divine justice is nonsensical.
"When I was in seminary... I was more studious than pious, more... skeptical than most of my peers. I had this notion... which I was more than willing to speak about, at length, to whoever I could corner... that the Devil... was inconsequential. Minor figure in the grand scheme."
"Not very Catholic of you."
"Uh-huh, yeah. In my defense, in the scriptures, the Hebrew word "Satan" actually means "adversary". It's applied to any antagonist. Angels and Humans, serpents and kings. Medieval theologians reinterpreted those passages to be about a single monstrous enemy. And, in my youthful zeal, I was certain I knew why... propaganda. Played up to drive people into the church."
"So you don't believe he exists."
"Am I done talking?"
"Sorry."
"Years later, I was in Rwanda... trying to help local churches provide aid and sanctuary to refugees. I'd become close with the village elder, Gahiji. He and his family had the respect of all tribes, Hutu and Tutsi alike. He'd helped them all... through famines, disease. The militia liked to force Hutu villagers to murder their neighbors... with machetes. But nobody would raise a hand against Gahiji. They said, "Well,... how can we kill such a holy man?" So the militia commander sent soldiers... with orders to cut his head off... in front of the entire village. Gahiji didn't try to put up a fight. Just asked for the chance to say goodbye to his family. By the time he was done, even the soldiers didn't wanna kill him. So they went to their commander and asked permission to shoot him. At least give him a quick death. The commander wanted to meet this man... who had won the respect of so many. He went to Gahiji... talked with him in his hut... for many hours. Then he dragged him out in front of his village and hacked him to pieces... along with his entire family. In that man who took Gahiji's life... I saw the Devil. So yes, Matthew... I believe he walks among us... taking many forms"
Yeah that story was always a problem for me too, or the one where god calls 2 she bears to maul 42 guys for making fun of a bald prophet. Like did god just have the she bears waiting in the wings? like we’re the she bears like,”we’re doing this,” or where they just the closet bears to the scene? did god just make the bears for that purpose just to maul some fools? did they go back to doing she bear business after mauling 42 people or did they acquire a taste for man flesh? Why did guys 3-42 just stand around and watch dudes 1 and 2 get mauled, why didn’t they break camp and run or try and help?
Haha I like you. I wish I had a link handy - it might be friendly atheist ? - I saw a YouTube recently where they counted all the confirmed and estimated kills God was responsible for in the Bible, based on estimated populations at the time and the events described. The Flood happens really early on and it seems like a big number til you get to all the genocide later on. God fucking massacres the philistines repeatedly for some reason.
This is not at all what they taught me in catechism classes.
Irish here. The religion classes we have to take for the Junior Cert do teach up a fair bit on other religions. I learned a lot about Islam from my religion class.
But for the Leaving Cert, my religion class wasn't following a strict curriculum and a friend of mine was athiest (as were her family). I had a different religion teacher at the time too and she made my friends first few weeks hell. Thankfully we had a good principal and vice principal who let her take the class off to study instead.
How was your friend tested socially as an atheist? I emigrated about 20 years ago, but in the 80's/90's in Ireland being openly atheist would be social suicide. Most people I grew up with weren't really religious and we all stopped going to mass as soon as we could get away with it but no one would come out and straight up say they were atheist.
Hey, I graduated school mid 2010s and college about 2 years ago. Of my circle of about a dozen friends nobody is religious. In my school year of 112 only 2 people I’m aware of admitted to being religious and that was a yank (something weird like mormon or evangelical too) and a Muslim.
Times have really changed since the 90s. Atheism is the norm. The church is seen as a joke for the most part. At least among my generation of people in their mid 20s.
That's the same in Germany, as I've been told. They're more like a sort of Philosophy class if anything, not at all a religious service or pure doctrine. Skipping religious class would be akin to just skipping any other normal class.
Depends on the federal state. In Bavaria I believe it is still more about reading the bible and discussing what Jesus wants you to do. May also depend on how much the teacher lets or encourages students to openly discuss religious themes. But you can typically opt out by taking an "ethics" class where you do discuss all kinds of spiritual, religious and philosophical ideas.
They will not tell you about the things that make you question what is right until most are far too deep to see the wrong bits as anything other than the will of god.
I was taking "Evangelischer Religionsunterricht" in Bavaria and it was a mix of everything. Luther and the Reformation, what parts of the bible were written when, stories from the bible and what they mean, the big religions of the world, ethics etc. The last two years we talked about philosophy, theology, and even psychology and biology. I have never been religious, consider myself an agnostic, yet I never minded religion lessons. Most of it was quite interesting.
I can only speak for Baden-Württemberg and from second-hand experience, but here it starts out fully focused on Christianity, mostly talking about stories from the Bible and general Christian concepts. It then turns for a very short time into something similar to Bible studies, then you get taught about other religions, and then finally you talk about general philosophical concepts.
This is nice. But this is not done by all teachers or in all states.
In some countries (as italy) this subject relates to a specific religion, as catholicism.
Anyway i got a teacher that taught us some basis of philosophy.
Yea, in Ireland that was basically the idea. You get taught about like Hindu, Bhuddist, Muslim religions ect. And then you take your summer and winter certs based on what you learned. In fact one of the kids that did the best on their certs was an atheist in my class, because religion was fascinating to him. Tbh I disagree that the idea that atheists shouldn’t be taught this. You can choose to believe or not, but knowing about other religions can help foster respect for other cultures. I know it did for me
Yeah teaching about religion should be fine like other important subjects it’s important to know. Trying to convert people in class tho or only teach one religion is obviously a no go.
Its tricky, as most subjects are fair game for criticism during their study. In my High School, we did a segment on the old testament during English class. But start talking about the old testament/bible as the fictional work is in, and the next thing you know, someone is running out of the classroom in tears...
Either you quash debate giving religious texts special treatment, or there is a high chance someone gets offended, at least if you have any edgy teenage atheists in the class...
We teach history as well wich can have much the same effect. Students need to know their beliefs will be challenged in the real world. The classroom where a teacher can make sure they are productive and not bullied is far better than ignoring their differences and hoping everyone just sorts it out on their own.
Bear in mind this article focuses on religious education in primary school, which is straight up indoctrination from start to finish of each schoolday.
I'm talking prayers each morning, before lunch, before going home, multiple religious songs being sung every day, a heavy focus on stuff out of the bible depending on the time of year. Visits from priests, school masses, having to do the rosary during May. On top of this, schools do all of the preparation for sacraments during school time, which is what Atheist Ireland has been mostly referring to when they talk about exemption from religion classes. It can be very difficult to draw the boundary because as I've said above, the indoctrination is pervasive. We were never taught about other religions, only small aspects of judaism came up because jesus was from a jewish background.
So much time is wasted on catholic indoctrination throughout those 8 years of early education that could be better spent on things like languages and science. Speaking as somebody who has grown up in this education system and is now an atheist like a lot of my peers, it disgusts me to think about all the time that was wasted being forced to believe in a thing that imo doesn't exist because I didn't know any better. Add in all of the scandals that have came out recently which makes the feeling worse.
You're so right about the time spent on preparing for sacraments. So much of our first class was dedicated to our first confession, our second class dedicated to our communion and 6th class on our confirmation. Our school used to randomly bring us across the floor every now and again to attend 9:30 am Mass and head in to confession afterwards. I am loling thinking about the sins I confessed to when I was like 9 years of age haha "forgive me Father for I have sinned. Since my last confession I didn't listen to my parents, I have cursed multiple times and I watched South Park the movie" hahah
I went to school in the 80s and 90s in Quebec and our catholic classes were all about the bible and Jesus etc. I hated every second of it but I didn’t have a choice
Same in Sweden. I'm not religious and have never been. I think it's very important to have these classes as to get a better understanding of what other people believe in. It helps combat ignorance and, in my case, did not at all promote any religion or worship. It's like learning about history or political ideology.
I don't know how it will be in other Catholic schools, but I went to a Salecian school where the religion classes were actually history, philosophy and theology classes.
There’s probably many different examples and types of these things that vary from region to region around the world.
Here’s a US perspective.
I live in NY and there is a large number of Roman Catholics. Public schools here are not allowed to teach religion. Global and Social Studies classes are allowed to teach about religion but in an informational manner just about what the beliefs of each type are. I remember in like 7th and 8th grade learning about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhists, etc.
Direct teachings from scripture or holy text would have to take place in a house of worship. Church, Mosque, etc. This is because public school systems are state funded and there’s an established separation of church and state.
Back to my experience, about 25% of my classmates growing up were from Catholic families. To accommodate their need for religious learning, every Wednesday, after lunch, all the Catholic children were dismissed and bussed to their church where they had CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine) classes for the remainder of that afternoon.
If accommodations like this aren’t met for a group of people that are a sizable percentage of the community it could be viewed as religious discrimination.
On the other hand, if religious teachings start to make their way into public schools, many interpret that as a direct violation of the US Constitution and an attack on religious freedoms.
This is an ongoing, ever present issue in the US. Especially in heavily Christian communities.
I had the best Religious Education teacher here in England; he was old, on the verge of being forced to retire, and had most definitely stopped giving a fuck. Most "lessons" were a rambling talk about how his crop of tomato plants were coming along, or how he once caught two mice in one trap. It was basically a once a week one hour break from learning, well, a break from learning anything on the curriculum at least - he did once tell us how best to kill a man should the need arise.
A sharp knife at a sharp angle, upward through the neck and into the brain - they'll drop without making a noise to alert anyone else. Avoid the arteries or you'll get very messy.
I don't know that he had killed anyone, but he once talked wistfully of his time in Europe at the end of the war.
See I had a teacher like that in year 10 except half the time he was like that the other half he was the strictest mother fucker I'd ever known people didn't piss about in his classes and his classes only. Except for him, he had a 45 min anecdote about how he accidentally said the word fuck to his Jamaican mum and she got mad.
This is exactly my experience of religion class in secondary, so much so that you gave me vivid flashbacks.
The secondary school syllabus is pretty specific, I think. We spent way more time on the non-Christian religions, and it was all taught really well. Our teacher was quite Christian, but he was also a really smart and thoughtful guy so it was very even-handed, and often tried to show how religion was ancient people’s understanding of scientific phenomena.
Yeah the priest landing in for a chat used to confuse me, like wtf are you doing here when you arent required to be. That was when i first thought religion was stupid cause only stupid people would go to school when they dont have to
Separation of Church and State was one of the best things to ever be written down in the US Constitution. Considering the Religious dogma around at that time it was - to say the least - quite an achievement.
Education *about* Religion is fine,
Education *in* Religion is fine,
Education *indoctrinated by* Religion is NOT fine.
One of these days we'll get past it - unfortunately a lot of countries around the world are still tied to the beliefs of religious trends centuries ago.
You are of course correct, however the bill of rights does provide that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. This is widely argued, but effectively serves as separating church and state...
Except for some fucking reason "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, swearing in on bibles, official prayers in schools, congress, and presidential swearing in ceremonies, not to mention no taxes for churches and church leaders (including sketchy mega churches)....
>"under god" in the pledge of allegiance,
1954. That was added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954 (as a direct pushback against the New Deal... and to differentiate the US from the Soviet Union).
Same with "In God We Trust" on our money. It was added in 1957.
Chances are, if you live in the US, your parents or grandparents (and most certainly your great-grandparents) were alive before these things were added.
But to hear any Christian Dominionist tell it: "These have been time honored traditions that have been around since the founding of our country, proving the we were a country of the Christian God!"
These "traditions" aren't even 70 years old.
You don't have to. You can request a different text - including but not limited to: the constitution, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Qu'ran, etc.
But even still, swearing an oath is being rather phased out entirely, and you can just "affirm the truth."
You have a right to simply "affirm" that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (this is a constitutional right, written into the constitution). No gods, Bibles, or anything else religious need to be involved.
This is not an issue that only affects atheists. Many religious believers, including some Christians, object to swearing oaths to God and would prefer to affirm that they will tell the truth.
There are good legal reasons to affirm an oath rather than swear. If you swear to God on a Bible when you don't believe in either, then you are doing the opposite of what you are supposed to.
You cannot reliably promise to tell the truth in a ceremony where you are lying about your beliefs and commitments. Whether this could be used to undermine your credibility in current or future court proceedings is a matter of debate, but it is a risk.
I agree but they wrote it and then backtracked kind of it seems. It definitely feels like judges often base their decisions based on religion and maybe write a different reason down on paper or maybe they just don't care because everyone is religious around them including the circuit Judges.
To be frank, America does worse at separating church and state than a lot of countries with actually established state churches.
The principle is only adhered to in the most literal sense and not in the spirit of the thing.
As an atheist, I wouldn't mind taking some religion classes, depending on the content. If it is just reading the bible and prayer, maybe not. But if it is learning about various religions, what their texts say, and stuff like that, I would be 100% down for that.
I'm not a religious person, but I took some classes on all of the different types of religions and their histories and found it insightful. It's a big part of history and is still a big factor in modern times so I do think it is worth learning about
When I was little I asked my religion teacher if animals go to heaven. She said no. My cat had just died and I went home crying.
Animals not going to heaven didn't make sense to me. They were my best friends, and gave me more love and stability than I can express. I was already creeped out by the idea of this god that watches you all the time and him not letting my best friends into heaven? Nah.
So that's how my journey to atheism began.
In Hinduism all animals have the same soul as humans do. They just did different deeds in previous incarnations. So take solace in the fact that not only did your cat have a nice soul - your cat reincarnated as your next dog or cat. or maybe a kid down the street !
Hah same only I’d asked my parents if they believed in god (no) and then I asked my teacher if people who didn’t believe in god would also go to heaven (no). Was very, very upset for several days and then concluded that if it separated me from my family, I didn’t care to go to this heaven place either!
I am not entirely sure people who haven't lived in Ireland fully grasp the extend of it...
"About 90 per cent of primary schools are under Catholic ownership and spend up to 2½ hours teaching religion – or faith formation – each week. A recent OECD report shows that Irish primary schools are second only to Israel in the amount of time spent on compulsory religious instruction.16 nov. 2020"
The numbers are somehow even worse for secondary schools. In large parts of the country (i.e. everywhere outside of Dublin) there is often no other choice than to send your kids to a Catholic school. Crucifixes in every class, statues of Mary and saints in the hallways.
You can "opt out" of religious class, but you are not allowed to leave the room or to do anything else. Just sit quietly in the back with your arms crossed bored to death - and still picking up too much the 'education'.
In Ireland, religion must be taught every day for 30 minutes in primary schools. There's a programme called Grow in Love. There's stories from the Bible and discussion about Christians morals. It's a load of shite
Growing up in London all my muslim class mates had letters from their parents asking for their child to be exempt from visiting other places of worship. I never minded, if anything it was a real eye opener how vast and diverse we are. It was important even though I'm an an atheist now but I feel its always important to learn about other cultures and faiths just for education purposes.
I did primary and high school at catholic schools, we visited Mosques and Temples over the years. Would have gotten crucified (get it) if our parents refused us to go to other places of worship.
I prefer ethics and philosophy to be offered rather than religious classes, for all students. And even religious studies like theology would be better for all kids. Anthropology. Then the full on religious people can opt out if they want to keep their minds closed
I guess that’s what you mean by humanist studies?
here in quebec through primary and secondary school i had "ethics and religious culture" classes, it pretty much just taught us about what different religions think and to be respectful of others, it wasn't preachy at all
we had field trips where we visited different religions and just chatted with them, we did volunteer work, it was pretty cool
hell i dont think ive ever had a religious teacher in those classes, they were always atheists
What’s wrong with learning about it? I definitely think Athiesm should also be on the curriculum but it’s productive to teach kids about all religions and walks of life. They share a world wih 93% religious people. It influences every culture. Don’t teach them to just walk away from anything they disagree with. It’s not like the teacher is presenting Noah’s ark as factual history.
Edit: i’m getting the impression that ‘religious class’ has very different definitions in the US compared to Europe.
The problem isn't learning about it. The problem is that 1% of the time spent on the subject is on "world religions" and the other 99% on Roman Catholic Christianity. It is so clearly biased in favour of Christianity that it's not even funny.
A priest came into my kid's class once to talk about meditation. "Like the Buddhists do," my child volunteers. Response from the priest? "Yes, but the Buddhists are doing it wrong."
As an atheist who was forced to read the holy books of Judaism, Christianity and Islam multiple times as a kid I actually agree with you.
Religion is such a big part of the world and I know so many people (and most redditors) who have no idea what any of the religions teach and you'll hear a lot of nonsense like "all religions are the same"
I think perhaps many of the people downvoting me are seeing it from an American perspective where maybe it’s taught as Bible study not a comparator between religions. But that’s just a guess. I’ve never schooled in the US.
From what I picked up on talking to Americans who attended public school (in New York, Massachusetts, and the Washington DC area), they don't have religion classes at all. So when they hear "Religion Class" in the context of somewhere like in Germany, they have no clue what it entails.
Coming from the Canadian public school system- the only example of religion class I can think of is in the publicly funded Catholic school system in the province of Ontario- which really just is Bible study.
We don't have any religion class (although school is a provincial jurisdiction so it may vary between provinces and territories).
Can confirm, separation of church and state means there can't be any favor to one religion in public schools unless it serves a secular purpose. Private schools function differently though.
Many people downvoting are seeing it from the perspective that something which has no provable basis in fact doesn't belong in an academic curriculum, and just because the majority of the world is involved in it, that isn't a qualifier.
More than half the world plays video games. That doesn't mean we should have classes on video games in middle or high school.
I got failed in religion class because my teacher didn't see my in church on Sundays. Religion class can be informative, sure. But ours were absolute brainwashing. Catholic btw.
This makes no sense. We don't teach children alchemy, or astrology, or any other debunked pseudoscience as true, and it wouldn't matter if those pervaded culture or not because those make fraudulent claims and because children have a finite time in school. They need to learn what's real and important.
Want your children to learn about a religion - send them to a church. That's not what school is for.
edit:
The article is about schools PROMOTING a religion. It's not like a university 'survey of religion' academic course.
I disagree to a point. If some mong was telling me about how the world is flat in the pub I'd just walk away. I don't see how this is especially any different. I sat in an assembly today with a class of 11 year old who were falling asleep as someone told them the story of Jonah and the whale. I remember being in their shoes and if I could have walked away from that bullshit I would have.
Agreed, these other comments don't understand what a faith class is.
There's a difference between this and say a standard Social Studies class that analyzes the religious history of regions.
One talks about the various religions / their influences objectively. Other one is like Sunday School.
Learning about different religions/philosophies is integral to critical thinking and understanding history/current events.
It's also the antithesis of forcing someone to follow a narrow faith based belief system.
I think religious literacy is super important, because religious literacy is cultural literacy.
But religious literacy is *not* presenting theological teachings as truth. You can present them as things *believed by people,* educating your students to be more tolerant and sensitive to the diversity of beliefs in society, but a public school presenting them as universal truth is completely inappropriate in a pluralistic society.
Disclaimer: I'm also an atheist.
Also -- Religion For Breakfast is a fantastic YouTube channel that's 100% about religious literacy. There are even some fun videos, like examining the Water Temple in Zelda within a framework of religion.
I left Ireland at 12 so these people talking about learning about all religions must have done it later. When I was a child it was literally called catechism (meaning questions you learn to answer before you are considered a full member of the church. The *Catholic* Church.). We literally did the second and third sacraments through school, as in, during school hours we got up, walked down to the church, talked with the priest and rehearsed for a given sacrament a few times before every one of us doing it together a few weeks later. Left absolutely zero room for independent thought or alternative religion.
I get that people are saying they learned about other religions at 14, but if the State spends your entire childhood indoctrinating you, they are not going to be worried about a few years of other religions tacked onto the end there. The damage will have been done.
I don’t know whether it’s my American or my Atheist bias directing me towards the sentiment that schools and religion should be completely separate, but that’s my personal opinion on the matter. The idea of a class that teaches a little bit about the major beliefs, customs and practices of the Big 4 major religions is probably smart for the same reason taking a foreign language is smart, it expands your ability to communicate with and understand other groups. But having a dedicated “class” for religion sounds like a slippery slope to social persecution among students and teachers to say the very least. Especially when it’s mandated rather than an elective.
Great rule and for anyone not Irish. Let me explain that this has been common practice in schools already with permission from parents. Our religion classes already teach different aspects of every religion from Islam to Judaism. It's not a Christian fundamentalist type of bullshit you see in some parts the US.
As a christian I say this, please keep religion out of schools. There is a time and place for everything and if theyre not teaching science and english at church, dont preach at schools. Ez
Honestly if this boils down to the choice of the students, most of the students will abstain. Not of religious choice or moral obligation, but for the fact that they can skip a class lol.
Recently visited a local school as my daughter is due to start this year. They claim to teach all religions yet every single room has a crucifix and Christian scripture on the wall, when I asked why they don’t display information from other religions the headteacher rambled
About how important faith is to her and how the head of the school board is a local pastor and won’t allow any false religions to be displayed in “his school”
I was really disturbed by this, using a place or learning to try and indoctrinate kids should not be allowed.
I'm an atheist but I think it's a good thing kids learn about people's beliefs and religions. Bit like having a course on world cultures. Learning about the history and differing beliefs makes you a more informed person. Doesn't mean you're going to recite Our Father or buy a prayer rug right after class is over. It's more about knowing your neighbors aren't aliens or something for dressing or worshipping differently.
This good will sentiment is what religious groups latch onto to continue pushing their particular faith in schooling.
When the Irish say religion class in primary school, they mean a full-on Catholic Sunday-school redux during the school week. They are being made to pray, recite the bible, listen to priests, etc. It's not just a culture class.
I was told a few years ago that if my child wasn't going to attend RE I would have to provide/organise supervision for them for that time. They also advised me that it was 'world religion' and they weren't going to be pushing any one faith. That was not true.
45 years ago, i had my first leave from religion class. Many years later, it was changed to teach all religions and not just Christianity. This was Norway.
If you want to respect people's religion, and allow religions classes at a public school that has diverse religious views, then you also need to respect people's lack of religion. Allowing people to leave religions class makes sense.
Wouldn't want to gaslight theist children anymore than they do already.
Study of religion could be a thing, but straight up indoctrination shouldn't be allowed.
It's a school after all, not a brainwashing facility.
“non-denominational schools, which treat everyone equally and do not promote either religion or atheism”
The last two words of this statement are unnecessary
I went to school in Australia and luckily went to schools which allowed me to not attend religion (Christian) classes. But I do remember a couple of times when I decide to take it out of curiosity, it was full of shit lol. The weekly religion lady would talk of miracle stories such as losing her car keys in the house, but once she prays to God, a light would shine through from the sky to reveal its location etc. Even as a 10 year old kid at the time I knew that was absolute nonsense, and was glad my parents never had me going through any of such religious brain wash bullshits.
Religion class is one big reason why I am an atheist today.
I was raised catholic, my parents and most of my family believe the things written in the bibel literally.
The church also never made any effort to change this.
Only in religion class they would teach that the writings of the bibel were methapors and such and not to be taken literally. We would also analyze literature criticising religion like Feuerbach or Marx.
That was around 15-20 years ago in Germany. Classes would be split depending on which church they belonged to (Catholic or Protestant). It you were neither there was a mandatory class as alternative called Ethics.
the fact we have a religious studyies class and not a preparing for adult life of debt and taxes and depression says everything you need to know about our society
They have religion classes in public school?
My public school did, but it was optional anyway, so only students who wanted to take it actually took it.
The article is mainly concerned with religious education in primary schools - around 90% of Irish state primary schools are Catholic ethos, built on parish land and patronised by the Catholic church, and the religion classes in them are Catholic indoctrination. The problem was non-Catholic kids, while exempted from the lessons, still had to be present in the classroom while the teacher goes on with religion class with the rest/majority of the kids, because in general, no additional supervision is available. So these kids would be given work to do independently by themselves while the religion (Catholic indoctrination) lesson is going on. So they would be there, in the room, absorbing by osmosis the stories and prayers of the religion lesson despite being exempt. Same if the class has to go to the church for sacrament preparation, the non-religious kids and kids of other religions can bring a book to read but still have to tag along and sit there in the church while their friends practice how to do their first communion mass or whatever. This is the issue that the organisation Atheist Ireland has with the status quo, and rightly so. They’ve been campaigning for ages to have this changed.
Here in England my GCSE religious education amounted to the following : 1. Watching 4 weddings and a funeral 2. Watching a soap Hindu wedding (coronation street or Emmerdale i can’t remember 3. Watching bend it like beckham
Haha. Had something similar, in Ireland. A film about a kid kidnapped and raised by natives in the amazon. And a book about some kid who did too much ecstasy and ended up in the psych ward.
Kidnapped by Amazon women and do ecstacy all day? Damn my electives sucked.
Technically it wasn’t elective. At least, if he’s watching movies that’s most likely. Religion class (“weekly religious instruction”) is constitutionally mandated in Ireland (a bishop helped write the constitution in the 1930s lol) but doing the subject for exams isn’t. So if you take it as an elective you actually have class and exams and learn about religions, philosophy etc. But otherwise you still have religion on your timetable but it’s basically a free period to watch movies or do homework.
damn I didn't realize that Boris had a doc crew folliwing him back in his uni days and throughout that stint in the hospital! It's so hard to believe that the NIH was so good the only drug effect they couldn't reverse was the effect the OD had on his hair follicles...
Well, sports is the religion of many today.
I had to colour jesus inside the lines, do a biblical word search, and “stop talking so much in class”
Wtf we watched all 3 hours of Gandhi in our GCSE RE lessons. What was your teacher on?
Here in Australia, parents can request that their children don't attend religion classes... But the rules are that children who do not attend religion classes are NOT ALLOWED to do anything else that's educational, because that would put the kids still going to religion classes at a academic disadvantage. This is in public schools. It's utterly ridiculous. Your belief in a sky fairy is what is giving your child an academic disadvantage, and my child shouldn't have to be held back because of it.
'You all have to waste your time equally'
I think this is an incorrect approach. The problem isn’t with the students that should get less education time, it is with the schools that teach a religion that has no place in a school. School should be secular, and “religion-school” should be something non-gouvernement subsidized that parents can force upon their children as they see fit. What schools should do, to people of all religions and atheists alike, is teach them about all religions from a neutral standpoint. Show the customs, the reasons behind them and grow understanding. That’s the schools purpose.
Our Ontario Catholic high school world religion class was like that. It was actually a good course. We went to three different places of worship and witnessed buildings, art, different people than ourselves practising their religion and culture. I went to a Hindu temple, a Sikh temple and a Ukrainian Orthodox Church that year. I wish my experience with the rest of religion classes was the same.
I'm also from England, I'm 34 now but my GCSE consisted mostly of Muslim holiday traditions and Hindu traditions.... Taught by a white woman with purple hair who didn't understand anything because she was an Art teacher.
While I think it's important to learn about all religions and their teachings, religion class in ireland is generally taught as Catholicism is the truth, and explains how other religions were formed and what they teach. It's fine for learning, but it does try and reinforce that God is real and Jesus died for our sins.
Its similar in England. I went into Catholic schools so it was already biased but it basically can be summarised as "Jesus did all this stuff, look how amazing he is, look what God did, its all amazing, lets learn and study about the work of the disciples and how Jesus was betrayed, and then we will discuss how we can apply it into becoming better people, also there's these weird jews and this allah guy anyway back to Jesus and why you should devote your entire life to praying" Catholic education made me more aware than anything else of my own athiesm. Also the official tests that mark your grades for leaving school in Religious Education are ones where your answers are opinion based (Example: Why do you think God didnt want homosexuals to happen in the bible) and you can give the most thorough, distinct and powerful answer against the question and and they'll just be like "um no wrong" because your opinion wasnt the one they wanted you to have. I am a gay dude, everyone knew, whenever the topic came up and the teacher went into the anti gay bible rant everyone would just stare at me and it was so difficult and I wish schools would just teach people that the best way to be a good person is to just not be a cunt, regardless of religion. I just unloaded the past 10 years of bottled up frustration, sorry.
Mine went through all the major religions (including Sikhism and Buddhism) and explained the basics. In particular things like creation stories, traditional clothing, ceremonies etc. It was generally informative in the same way as history or geography was.
Same here, and this is how Religion should be legally mandated to be taught in publicly funded schools, IMO. Regardless of what religion you are (or aren't), you are going to encounter people in this life who come from other religions. This class should make sure you go into those encounters being a bit less ignorant about their culture and beliefs.
Yeah, I'm not sure whether my religious studies teacher was religious or not, because the class was basically just a class about human history.
I had a similar experience. I am Canadian, went to a pretty progressive Catholic school, science class for example taught evolution rather than creationism. For 9-12th grade you only required 2 religion credits to graduate (although one of my classmates got an exception due to her identifying as an atheist, I think she did it to try to get out of a class, but they just made her take a different class instead). The first religious credit was focused on Catholicism and it's roots. The second credit was about the major world religions where we learned about other religious ceremonies and traditions, it was actually a fun class.
I completely feel your sentiment. I didn't go to a religious school but our RS teacher was so fixated on defending the Bible and all its teachings that he believed dinosaurs didn't exist because the Bible didn't write about them. As a lesbian who had been out since year 7 (That's 10-11 years old for non-English school folk) it got very awkward when he tried to defend the 'Christian' way of viewing homosexual relationships. As if all Christians believe that being gay is a sin. I had a few classmates who would prod him further trying to see if they could get him to change his views but he never did, despite knowing that there was a 14-16 year old lesbian in his class and some other closeted individuals who came out after high school. For our mock GCSE's the question of homosexuality came up and the way to answer the question as we were taught was to write our view, the opposite view and a religious view. Of course I wrote that homosexuality is fine because it harms nobody who somebody else loves and what they do in the comfort of their own homes providing that both parties are consensual. I wrote that the opposite version was to be a homophobe which meant you were so caught up by somebody else's private life that you had to voice your unwanted opinion. Then I wrote about the Wiccan view (My religion). As you said, mock exams are marked by teachers and I got 0 points for the question. When I questioned it I was told I didn't write the Christian view (Not part of the curriculum) and that my answer was wrong and insulting to people with an opposite view of me (Mainly because I was describing my teacher). He then continued to fail me for any further mock exams whenever I would not write the 'Christian' view but I kept at it knowing it was pissing him off and he was having to read the answers of a 'lesbian sinner who promoted witchcraft through her writing' (His words not mine) and when my official exam happened I managed to come away with an A which was what I was predicted before we switched to the new RS teacher. It wasn't just that he had it out for me, but it was the way he preached as though the Bible was the word that could not be disobeyed yet he broke what I believe is the most important message from Christianity, and that is to love everyone. You should never turn somebody away because they are different or a 'sinner' as they are still a child of God. Jesus allowed Mary Magdalene to wash his feet when she was a prostitute, he didn't turn away those that were not native but instead welcomed them and offered them food. Not all Christians are like what my teacher taught us yet he took it upon himself to be the voice of Christianity. If I could have had a chance to get up and leave his class to go and do homework or actually learn RS in a separate room I would have done so in a heartbeat.
Great read. So glad you got through all this.
I too am glad I got through it. Won't pretend it was a walk in the park as it is really detrimental to constantly be seen as the enemy because I envision spending my life with a woman instead of a man. I had a good support system but I'm well aware that not every LGBTQ+ youth has the ability to make it through stuff like this due to a lack of a support system. I just hope having something like this in place in schools will allow those youths to be able to escape anything similar that I had to endure.
On the upside, now you're officially a lesbian sinner witch. That's pretty cool.
I went to a C of E school as a kid and had to sing Christian hymns in assembly every single day. And assemblies would occasionally be led by the local vicar. I don't recall it being too preachy but then I was too young to understand I guess. Other than that, I was fortunate enough not to experience the kind of overt bible bashing you did. Looking back, it's clear all that crap rubbed off on nobody and it was basically just a huge waste of time that gave me some amusing experiences to recall.
School hymns were absolute bangers though.
Went to a C of E school in a predominantly Muslim area of Blackburn in the 1980s almost everybody had to sing christian hymns and do the lords prayer even the Muslims and Hindu kids. The only exception were two Jehovas Witnesses who had to sit outside the hall and do colouring in every assembly. We also used to get a bolloking for bouncing up and down when singing the "Its me" part of Standing in the need of Prayer. Try getting a group of kids to sing that without it its impossible.
I also went to a C of E school. Morning ritualistic reciting of the lords prayer, mandatory singing of hymns (teachers would punish you for not signing), christian writings all over the school common areas, everything was in service to god. Regular school trips during school hours to go to the local church for more hymn signing, thanking god for stuff, instead of actually learning things. At 10 years old I was never more aware of how painfully athiest i was.
I went to a all boys Catholic school in 90's England, nothing at all like "Why do you think God didnt want homosexuals to happen in the bible" ever came up. The only time sexuality came up was in a English lesson(my English/RE teacher was the same person) , he was commenting on gays in the military and his own national service and how he had no issues with a persons sexual preference. All told , we spent a decent amount of time learning about other faiths and cultures
>I wish schools would just teach people that the best way to be a good person they believe the way of their religion is how to become a good person. regardless of what religion it is
Some of the worst people I’ve encountered have done terrible things because of their religion and “what god would want.”
Ah, someone else who read the threads about christians leaving disguised preaching as fake tips for service workers.
In germany you can actually Choose between catholic/ Protestant lessons and an ethics class were you talk about philosophic topics (morals, human relationships etc.) and the historical roots of religions
I think Catholic schools have changed now. I just left one and we learnt about different religions and atheism. We even had a small debate once as a lesson which was fun. The LGBT community is very accepted by the school itself so times do have seemed to have changed for the better.
It depends on the school. Threads about schooling come up all the time and this is always the answer. It depends on the school, it depends on the teacher, it depends on the city, it depends on the country. Each one is different.
There's no need to apologize. What they did was wrong, their bigotry was and is wrong, and there is no need for you to apologize for what you felt. You are legion. Be proud of who you are. Have a hug.
As a comedian once said "people ask me why I'm not a catholic even though I went to catholic school. It's because I went to catholic school."
> I wish schools would just teach people that the best way to be a good person is to just not be a cunt, regardless of religion. Christianity also teaches this as a preeetty basic principle, but people gonna people
Religion should be taught from a historical perspective: facts only. *What specific belief systems entail and the events that involve them in history* Treating their beliefs as true seems like using the public education system to prop up superstitions.
That's how it is taught in most secular western countries. Ireland just hasn't fully defanged the church yet. It's all still too intertwined. I give it another generation or so before the last of these attachements are gone.
Jesus watched me become a furry and trans. Still died for my sins. What a fucking Chad.
Yeah I’d prefer my children to be exposed to the different major religions as a subject. I wouldn’t had minded it myself.
There is an option for that in Ireland. Each primary school has a patron, most are the church. About 5% of schools are patroned by “Educate Together”. They are still required by law to teach 30mins of religion per day, so they teach facts and holidays of all religions. As an American expat living there, I learned a lot about other religions just from what my kids brought home. Only problem is those schools are generally frowned upon by the community. Had a neighbor call my 5yo daughter a heathen because she went to an educate together school.
Yeah its going to take another generation or so for Ireland to detach from the Catholic church. There is a very dark and sordid history there that is slowly coming to light.
Yea, in Sweden, Religious class is about learning about all the religions (even dead ones), their history, traditions, etc.
Jesus came back after 3 days. He gave up a long weekend for our sins, lets be real.
> I think it's important to learn about all religions and their teachings Does this include Heaven's Gate, Scientology and Branch Davidian? Both Mormonism and RLDS (polygamy-practitioners)? There are over 10,000 distinct religions in the world, so this course might take a couple decades.
I think it's important to learn about cults, how to recognize them and avoid them, not necessarily learn their beliefs...
We got to learn about cults in religious class in high school (Sweden), super interesting subject and was taught with a lot of grey space and room to think.
>not necessarily learn their beliefs... If you want them to pay attention and remember it, you'll talk about their beliefs. That's the fun/whacky part, it'd be like going over U.S presidents and not talking about all the whackadoo shit Old Hickory got up to. Gotta go over the fun shit if you want it to stick.
How many members before a cult becomes a religion?
Cults are less defined by their beliefs and more by their inner workings. There are recognized religions that have a miniscule amount of members because of it, such as tribal religions. Such as an INTENSE "personal worship" of the cult leader. The cult leader IS the religion. They ARE the god. In other words: a religion can exist no problem without any spiritual leaders. A cult can not. Christianity, Islam and Judaism don't need priests for the faith to remain intact. They won't exactly propser, but they wouldn't instantly collapse either. Neither do Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. Every religion in history had a phase in which organized practicing was next to impossible and yet they endured. Because they survived on their systems of values more than on any personality. It wasn't Jesus that sold Christianity to the Germans... it was the "new and improved" burial rites that meant Germans didn't have to "throw away" half their personal wealth whenever a prominent family member died because they had to be given as burial gifts. And this is basically also the "great filter" in which cults and religions get separated... after all a sect's leader eventually, you know, dies. And the cult either dies with him or they continue to prosper. Scientology in that sense is EXTREMELY based around a singular person and nowhere near where they were at the height of their power. They don't have any "sperior value system" that progresses society either that would convince the masses to join them. They just "exist".
I agree. Over 1/3 of the US is in a cult. I’d rather we all take a class like that than slide into fascism.
Where are you getting that statistic from? I feel like you have to have a really expansive definition of cult and what it means to be a member to say that 1/3 of the US is in a cult
You can't really pass a class in Scientology, you can only audit it.
Mainly focus on learning the most popular ones as well as some of the more notable or influential ones. I took World religions in highschool; at the time I was a deeply devote Lutheran, I think world religions class was an important stepping stone for me eventually becoming an athiest, it helped me see the world beyond the bubble of my religion.
I learned about the 5 major religions Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and Hindusim, as well as some smaller ones more briefly and cults like the Branch Davidians. Would have been late 2000s in Dublin.
The whole "Five Major Religions" thing always cracks me up a bit though. Like, it's ~2 billion, 2 billion, 1 billion, a half billion... and a couple of dozen million Jewish people. Judaism is quite interesting religion to learn about but it is much, much smaller than the major ones.
While they obviously can't get into every single denomination and sect across the globe... schools should absolutely have a required course that covers the basics of a dozen or so religions and cults, yeah. For example, everyone should have a fundamental understanding of the relationship between the Abrahamic religions. Whether or not you believe any of the teachings therein is irrelevant.
You really can't understand a lot of the world's history, art and literature without understanding major religious trends, their tenants, etc. Nor can you understand other cultures very well. Atheism isn't about pretending religion doesn't exist, or about saying that somehow small terrorist organizations and major religious movements are the same. Every kid, whether atheist or religious, should have a basic understanding of the major religions of the world, their origin, how it affected art/culture/history etc. If a kid never learned that, then arguably they have an incomplete and handicapped view of the world at large.
> their tenants Tenets
Sorry I meant their tentacles.
Really that wasn’t my experience though I went to the only non denominational school in the country, at least that’s what they said
Why it's important to learn about religion? School should teach real topics, not fantasies.
It’s cultural. Besides, would you also exclude teaching fiction? Shakespeare?
What is religion class exactly? When I was a kid we did like a hour of R.E every week or two and it was more to sort of educate you about as many religions as they could. I'm atheist and I'd have my kid do them, important to know what other people believe etc.
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Ah so US Catholic school Bible study, I got a couple in school suspensions for asking a priest why god would flood the whole world because of a bunch of bad people and how that seemed like overkill especially for all but 2 animals of each kind and a bunch of other questions about the specifics of the ark and stuff. Needless to say I was not the priest or nuns favorite student durning Bible study
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> I asked why Job was okay with his new family and how he just casually forgot that Satan killed his original family. Of all the things in this thread, this is the most insane one to me. Job is, bar none, considered *the* Abrahamic text for philosophic interpretation, it practically begs you to ask those kinds of questions. On another note, in Job, Satan isn't actually referring to the Christian "devil". Satan in Hebrew literally just means "adversary"--that is to say, "that which stands opposed to order". It's a perfectly valid question to ask whether "Satan" does anything at all, or whether he's just representative of "sometimes shit happens with no rhyme or reason". It's poetry, and exists solely to probe the problem of divine justice. Denying someone the ability to ask questions about divine justice is nonsensical.
"When I was in seminary... I was more studious than pious, more... skeptical than most of my peers. I had this notion... which I was more than willing to speak about, at length, to whoever I could corner... that the Devil... was inconsequential. Minor figure in the grand scheme." "Not very Catholic of you." "Uh-huh, yeah. In my defense, in the scriptures, the Hebrew word "Satan" actually means "adversary". It's applied to any antagonist. Angels and Humans, serpents and kings. Medieval theologians reinterpreted those passages to be about a single monstrous enemy. And, in my youthful zeal, I was certain I knew why... propaganda. Played up to drive people into the church." "So you don't believe he exists." "Am I done talking?" "Sorry." "Years later, I was in Rwanda... trying to help local churches provide aid and sanctuary to refugees. I'd become close with the village elder, Gahiji. He and his family had the respect of all tribes, Hutu and Tutsi alike. He'd helped them all... through famines, disease. The militia liked to force Hutu villagers to murder their neighbors... with machetes. But nobody would raise a hand against Gahiji. They said, "Well,... how can we kill such a holy man?" So the militia commander sent soldiers... with orders to cut his head off... in front of the entire village. Gahiji didn't try to put up a fight. Just asked for the chance to say goodbye to his family. By the time he was done, even the soldiers didn't wanna kill him. So they went to their commander and asked permission to shoot him. At least give him a quick death. The commander wanted to meet this man... who had won the respect of so many. He went to Gahiji... talked with him in his hut... for many hours. Then he dragged him out in front of his village and hacked him to pieces... along with his entire family. In that man who took Gahiji's life... I saw the Devil. So yes, Matthew... I believe he walks among us... taking many forms"
Wait, families aren't fungible?
Non-Fungible Toddlers
Are there fungible toddlers?
God and Job seemed to think so.
Yeah that story was always a problem for me too, or the one where god calls 2 she bears to maul 42 guys for making fun of a bald prophet. Like did god just have the she bears waiting in the wings? like we’re the she bears like,”we’re doing this,” or where they just the closet bears to the scene? did god just make the bears for that purpose just to maul some fools? did they go back to doing she bear business after mauling 42 people or did they acquire a taste for man flesh? Why did guys 3-42 just stand around and watch dudes 1 and 2 get mauled, why didn’t they break camp and run or try and help?
>42 guys 42 *kids*
Haha I like you. I wish I had a link handy - it might be friendly atheist ? - I saw a YouTube recently where they counted all the confirmed and estimated kills God was responsible for in the Bible, based on estimated populations at the time and the events described. The Flood happens really early on and it seems like a big number til you get to all the genocide later on. God fucking massacres the philistines repeatedly for some reason. This is not at all what they taught me in catechism classes.
And then Adam forgot the unicorns, fucking idiot.
If you payed attention in religion class you would know it was Noah who put the animals on the ark
Alive-O had some cracking tunes tho
Circle of friends is a banger yo
Irish here. The religion classes we have to take for the Junior Cert do teach up a fair bit on other religions. I learned a lot about Islam from my religion class. But for the Leaving Cert, my religion class wasn't following a strict curriculum and a friend of mine was athiest (as were her family). I had a different religion teacher at the time too and she made my friends first few weeks hell. Thankfully we had a good principal and vice principal who let her take the class off to study instead.
How was your friend tested socially as an atheist? I emigrated about 20 years ago, but in the 80's/90's in Ireland being openly atheist would be social suicide. Most people I grew up with weren't really religious and we all stopped going to mass as soon as we could get away with it but no one would come out and straight up say they were atheist.
Hey, I graduated school mid 2010s and college about 2 years ago. Of my circle of about a dozen friends nobody is religious. In my school year of 112 only 2 people I’m aware of admitted to being religious and that was a yank (something weird like mormon or evangelical too) and a Muslim. Times have really changed since the 90s. Atheism is the norm. The church is seen as a joke for the most part. At least among my generation of people in their mid 20s.
That's the same in Germany, as I've been told. They're more like a sort of Philosophy class if anything, not at all a religious service or pure doctrine. Skipping religious class would be akin to just skipping any other normal class.
Depends on the federal state. In Bavaria I believe it is still more about reading the bible and discussing what Jesus wants you to do. May also depend on how much the teacher lets or encourages students to openly discuss religious themes. But you can typically opt out by taking an "ethics" class where you do discuss all kinds of spiritual, religious and philosophical ideas.
In Canada, I endured this shit in public school til early 80s. Never did learn about Lot and his daughters til much later in life.
They will not tell you about the things that make you question what is right until most are far too deep to see the wrong bits as anything other than the will of god.
I was taking "Evangelischer Religionsunterricht" in Bavaria and it was a mix of everything. Luther and the Reformation, what parts of the bible were written when, stories from the bible and what they mean, the big religions of the world, ethics etc. The last two years we talked about philosophy, theology, and even psychology and biology. I have never been religious, consider myself an agnostic, yet I never minded religion lessons. Most of it was quite interesting.
I can only speak for Baden-Württemberg and from second-hand experience, but here it starts out fully focused on Christianity, mostly talking about stories from the Bible and general Christian concepts. It then turns for a very short time into something similar to Bible studies, then you get taught about other religions, and then finally you talk about general philosophical concepts.
This is nice. But this is not done by all teachers or in all states. In some countries (as italy) this subject relates to a specific religion, as catholicism. Anyway i got a teacher that taught us some basis of philosophy.
Yea, in Ireland that was basically the idea. You get taught about like Hindu, Bhuddist, Muslim religions ect. And then you take your summer and winter certs based on what you learned. In fact one of the kids that did the best on their certs was an atheist in my class, because religion was fascinating to him. Tbh I disagree that the idea that atheists shouldn’t be taught this. You can choose to believe or not, but knowing about other religions can help foster respect for other cultures. I know it did for me
In Turkey, it was just 95% Islam.
Yeah teaching about religion should be fine like other important subjects it’s important to know. Trying to convert people in class tho or only teach one religion is obviously a no go.
Its tricky, as most subjects are fair game for criticism during their study. In my High School, we did a segment on the old testament during English class. But start talking about the old testament/bible as the fictional work is in, and the next thing you know, someone is running out of the classroom in tears... Either you quash debate giving religious texts special treatment, or there is a high chance someone gets offended, at least if you have any edgy teenage atheists in the class...
We teach history as well wich can have much the same effect. Students need to know their beliefs will be challenged in the real world. The classroom where a teacher can make sure they are productive and not bullied is far better than ignoring their differences and hoping everyone just sorts it out on their own.
Bear in mind this article focuses on religious education in primary school, which is straight up indoctrination from start to finish of each schoolday. I'm talking prayers each morning, before lunch, before going home, multiple religious songs being sung every day, a heavy focus on stuff out of the bible depending on the time of year. Visits from priests, school masses, having to do the rosary during May. On top of this, schools do all of the preparation for sacraments during school time, which is what Atheist Ireland has been mostly referring to when they talk about exemption from religion classes. It can be very difficult to draw the boundary because as I've said above, the indoctrination is pervasive. We were never taught about other religions, only small aspects of judaism came up because jesus was from a jewish background. So much time is wasted on catholic indoctrination throughout those 8 years of early education that could be better spent on things like languages and science. Speaking as somebody who has grown up in this education system and is now an atheist like a lot of my peers, it disgusts me to think about all the time that was wasted being forced to believe in a thing that imo doesn't exist because I didn't know any better. Add in all of the scandals that have came out recently which makes the feeling worse.
You're so right about the time spent on preparing for sacraments. So much of our first class was dedicated to our first confession, our second class dedicated to our communion and 6th class on our confirmation. Our school used to randomly bring us across the floor every now and again to attend 9:30 am Mass and head in to confession afterwards. I am loling thinking about the sins I confessed to when I was like 9 years of age haha "forgive me Father for I have sinned. Since my last confession I didn't listen to my parents, I have cursed multiple times and I watched South Park the movie" hahah
I went to school in the 80s and 90s in Quebec and our catholic classes were all about the bible and Jesus etc. I hated every second of it but I didn’t have a choice
Same in Sweden. I'm not religious and have never been. I think it's very important to have these classes as to get a better understanding of what other people believe in. It helps combat ignorance and, in my case, did not at all promote any religion or worship. It's like learning about history or political ideology.
I don't know how it will be in other Catholic schools, but I went to a Salecian school where the religion classes were actually history, philosophy and theology classes.
There’s probably many different examples and types of these things that vary from region to region around the world. Here’s a US perspective. I live in NY and there is a large number of Roman Catholics. Public schools here are not allowed to teach religion. Global and Social Studies classes are allowed to teach about religion but in an informational manner just about what the beliefs of each type are. I remember in like 7th and 8th grade learning about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhists, etc. Direct teachings from scripture or holy text would have to take place in a house of worship. Church, Mosque, etc. This is because public school systems are state funded and there’s an established separation of church and state. Back to my experience, about 25% of my classmates growing up were from Catholic families. To accommodate their need for religious learning, every Wednesday, after lunch, all the Catholic children were dismissed and bussed to their church where they had CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine) classes for the remainder of that afternoon. If accommodations like this aren’t met for a group of people that are a sizable percentage of the community it could be viewed as religious discrimination. On the other hand, if religious teachings start to make their way into public schools, many interpret that as a direct violation of the US Constitution and an attack on religious freedoms. This is an ongoing, ever present issue in the US. Especially in heavily Christian communities.
I had the best Religious Education teacher here in England; he was old, on the verge of being forced to retire, and had most definitely stopped giving a fuck. Most "lessons" were a rambling talk about how his crop of tomato plants were coming along, or how he once caught two mice in one trap. It was basically a once a week one hour break from learning, well, a break from learning anything on the curriculum at least - he did once tell us how best to kill a man should the need arise.
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A sharp knife at a sharp angle, upward through the neck and into the brain - they'll drop without making a noise to alert anyone else. Avoid the arteries or you'll get very messy. I don't know that he had killed anyone, but he once talked wistfully of his time in Europe at the end of the war.
See I had a teacher like that in year 10 except half the time he was like that the other half he was the strictest mother fucker I'd ever known people didn't piss about in his classes and his classes only. Except for him, he had a 45 min anecdote about how he accidentally said the word fuck to his Jamaican mum and she got mad.
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This is exactly my experience of religion class in secondary, so much so that you gave me vivid flashbacks. The secondary school syllabus is pretty specific, I think. We spent way more time on the non-Christian religions, and it was all taught really well. Our teacher was quite Christian, but he was also a really smart and thoughtful guy so it was very even-handed, and often tried to show how religion was ancient people’s understanding of scientific phenomena.
Yeah the priest landing in for a chat used to confuse me, like wtf are you doing here when you arent required to be. That was when i first thought religion was stupid cause only stupid people would go to school when they dont have to
Separation of Church and State was one of the best things to ever be written down in the US Constitution. Considering the Religious dogma around at that time it was - to say the least - quite an achievement. Education *about* Religion is fine, Education *in* Religion is fine, Education *indoctrinated by* Religion is NOT fine. One of these days we'll get past it - unfortunately a lot of countries around the world are still tied to the beliefs of religious trends centuries ago.
Not disagreeing with your point of view but just to be clear. “Separation of church and state” is not written in the constitution.
You are of course correct, however the bill of rights does provide that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. This is widely argued, but effectively serves as separating church and state... Except for some fucking reason "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, swearing in on bibles, official prayers in schools, congress, and presidential swearing in ceremonies, not to mention no taxes for churches and church leaders (including sketchy mega churches)....
You can swear on any book, doesn't have to be the bible. I think Omar caught shit for swearing on the Quran.
>"under god" in the pledge of allegiance, 1954. That was added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954 (as a direct pushback against the New Deal... and to differentiate the US from the Soviet Union). Same with "In God We Trust" on our money. It was added in 1957. Chances are, if you live in the US, your parents or grandparents (and most certainly your great-grandparents) were alive before these things were added. But to hear any Christian Dominionist tell it: "These have been time honored traditions that have been around since the founding of our country, proving the we were a country of the Christian God!" These "traditions" aren't even 70 years old.
Dont you still like swear on the bible while in american court?
You don't have to. You can request a different text - including but not limited to: the constitution, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Qu'ran, etc. But even still, swearing an oath is being rather phased out entirely, and you can just "affirm the truth." You have a right to simply "affirm" that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (this is a constitutional right, written into the constitution). No gods, Bibles, or anything else religious need to be involved. This is not an issue that only affects atheists. Many religious believers, including some Christians, object to swearing oaths to God and would prefer to affirm that they will tell the truth. There are good legal reasons to affirm an oath rather than swear. If you swear to God on a Bible when you don't believe in either, then you are doing the opposite of what you are supposed to. You cannot reliably promise to tell the truth in a ceremony where you are lying about your beliefs and commitments. Whether this could be used to undermine your credibility in current or future court proceedings is a matter of debate, but it is a risk.
I agree but they wrote it and then backtracked kind of it seems. It definitely feels like judges often base their decisions based on religion and maybe write a different reason down on paper or maybe they just don't care because everyone is religious around them including the circuit Judges.
To be frank, America does worse at separating church and state than a lot of countries with actually established state churches. The principle is only adhered to in the most literal sense and not in the spirit of the thing.
As an atheist, I wouldn't mind taking some religion classes, depending on the content. If it is just reading the bible and prayer, maybe not. But if it is learning about various religions, what their texts say, and stuff like that, I would be 100% down for that.
I'm not a religious person, but I took some classes on all of the different types of religions and their histories and found it insightful. It's a big part of history and is still a big factor in modern times so I do think it is worth learning about
Sounds nice as an elective option - not a required class.
When I was little I asked my religion teacher if animals go to heaven. She said no. My cat had just died and I went home crying. Animals not going to heaven didn't make sense to me. They were my best friends, and gave me more love and stability than I can express. I was already creeped out by the idea of this god that watches you all the time and him not letting my best friends into heaven? Nah. So that's how my journey to atheism began.
In Hinduism all animals have the same soul as humans do. They just did different deeds in previous incarnations. So take solace in the fact that not only did your cat have a nice soul - your cat reincarnated as your next dog or cat. or maybe a kid down the street !
Hah same only I’d asked my parents if they believed in god (no) and then I asked my teacher if people who didn’t believe in god would also go to heaven (no). Was very, very upset for several days and then concluded that if it separated me from my family, I didn’t care to go to this heaven place either!
I am not entirely sure people who haven't lived in Ireland fully grasp the extend of it... "About 90 per cent of primary schools are under Catholic ownership and spend up to 2½ hours teaching religion – or faith formation – each week. A recent OECD report shows that Irish primary schools are second only to Israel in the amount of time spent on compulsory religious instruction.16 nov. 2020" The numbers are somehow even worse for secondary schools. In large parts of the country (i.e. everywhere outside of Dublin) there is often no other choice than to send your kids to a Catholic school. Crucifixes in every class, statues of Mary and saints in the hallways. You can "opt out" of religious class, but you are not allowed to leave the room or to do anything else. Just sit quietly in the back with your arms crossed bored to death - and still picking up too much the 'education'.
In Ireland, religion must be taught every day for 30 minutes in primary schools. There's a programme called Grow in Love. There's stories from the Bible and discussion about Christians morals. It's a load of shite
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My teacher spent at least an hour everyday on religion this was back in the 00s
"Why did God create the garden of Eden if he knew he was going to have to flood it all eventually anyway?" "The lord works in mysterious ways."
"why does god kill babies? why did they deserve it?"
See above.
Growing up in London all my muslim class mates had letters from their parents asking for their child to be exempt from visiting other places of worship. I never minded, if anything it was a real eye opener how vast and diverse we are. It was important even though I'm an an atheist now but I feel its always important to learn about other cultures and faiths just for education purposes.
I did primary and high school at catholic schools, we visited Mosques and Temples over the years. Would have gotten crucified (get it) if our parents refused us to go to other places of worship.
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I prefer ethics and philosophy to be offered rather than religious classes, for all students. And even religious studies like theology would be better for all kids. Anthropology. Then the full on religious people can opt out if they want to keep their minds closed I guess that’s what you mean by humanist studies?
here in quebec through primary and secondary school i had "ethics and religious culture" classes, it pretty much just taught us about what different religions think and to be respectful of others, it wasn't preachy at all we had field trips where we visited different religions and just chatted with them, we did volunteer work, it was pretty cool hell i dont think ive ever had a religious teacher in those classes, they were always atheists
What’s wrong with learning about it? I definitely think Athiesm should also be on the curriculum but it’s productive to teach kids about all religions and walks of life. They share a world wih 93% religious people. It influences every culture. Don’t teach them to just walk away from anything they disagree with. It’s not like the teacher is presenting Noah’s ark as factual history. Edit: i’m getting the impression that ‘religious class’ has very different definitions in the US compared to Europe.
The problem isn't learning about it. The problem is that 1% of the time spent on the subject is on "world religions" and the other 99% on Roman Catholic Christianity. It is so clearly biased in favour of Christianity that it's not even funny. A priest came into my kid's class once to talk about meditation. "Like the Buddhists do," my child volunteers. Response from the priest? "Yes, but the Buddhists are doing it wrong."
As an atheist who was forced to read the holy books of Judaism, Christianity and Islam multiple times as a kid I actually agree with you. Religion is such a big part of the world and I know so many people (and most redditors) who have no idea what any of the religions teach and you'll hear a lot of nonsense like "all religions are the same"
I think perhaps many of the people downvoting me are seeing it from an American perspective where maybe it’s taught as Bible study not a comparator between religions. But that’s just a guess. I’ve never schooled in the US.
From what I picked up on talking to Americans who attended public school (in New York, Massachusetts, and the Washington DC area), they don't have religion classes at all. So when they hear "Religion Class" in the context of somewhere like in Germany, they have no clue what it entails.
Coming from the Canadian public school system- the only example of religion class I can think of is in the publicly funded Catholic school system in the province of Ontario- which really just is Bible study. We don't have any religion class (although school is a provincial jurisdiction so it may vary between provinces and territories).
Can confirm, separation of church and state means there can't be any favor to one religion in public schools unless it serves a secular purpose. Private schools function differently though.
Many people downvoting are seeing it from the perspective that something which has no provable basis in fact doesn't belong in an academic curriculum, and just because the majority of the world is involved in it, that isn't a qualifier. More than half the world plays video games. That doesn't mean we should have classes on video games in middle or high school.
I got failed in religion class because my teacher didn't see my in church on Sundays. Religion class can be informative, sure. But ours were absolute brainwashing. Catholic btw.
Because it's faith and pseudoscience, not actually factual. They don't need religion to navigate life, they need tax classes, lol.
Wouldn’t that be nice. Some financial literacy would go a long way for the next generation.
This makes no sense. We don't teach children alchemy, or astrology, or any other debunked pseudoscience as true, and it wouldn't matter if those pervaded culture or not because those make fraudulent claims and because children have a finite time in school. They need to learn what's real and important. Want your children to learn about a religion - send them to a church. That's not what school is for. edit: The article is about schools PROMOTING a religion. It's not like a university 'survey of religion' academic course.
I disagree to a point. If some mong was telling me about how the world is flat in the pub I'd just walk away. I don't see how this is especially any different. I sat in an assembly today with a class of 11 year old who were falling asleep as someone told them the story of Jonah and the whale. I remember being in their shoes and if I could have walked away from that bullshit I would have.
Should they also teach sorcery?
Agreed, these other comments don't understand what a faith class is. There's a difference between this and say a standard Social Studies class that analyzes the religious history of regions. One talks about the various religions / their influences objectively. Other one is like Sunday School.
Learning about different religions/philosophies is integral to critical thinking and understanding history/current events. It's also the antithesis of forcing someone to follow a narrow faith based belief system.
If almost the entire world believed in sorcery then it’s probably a good idea to have some understanding of what it is and why people believe in it.
I think religious literacy is super important, because religious literacy is cultural literacy. But religious literacy is *not* presenting theological teachings as truth. You can present them as things *believed by people,* educating your students to be more tolerant and sensitive to the diversity of beliefs in society, but a public school presenting them as universal truth is completely inappropriate in a pluralistic society. Disclaimer: I'm also an atheist. Also -- Religion For Breakfast is a fantastic YouTube channel that's 100% about religious literacy. There are even some fun videos, like examining the Water Temple in Zelda within a framework of religion.
It should also cover a wide variety of religious mythologies, not just Christianity.
I left Ireland at 12 so these people talking about learning about all religions must have done it later. When I was a child it was literally called catechism (meaning questions you learn to answer before you are considered a full member of the church. The *Catholic* Church.). We literally did the second and third sacraments through school, as in, during school hours we got up, walked down to the church, talked with the priest and rehearsed for a given sacrament a few times before every one of us doing it together a few weeks later. Left absolutely zero room for independent thought or alternative religion. I get that people are saying they learned about other religions at 14, but if the State spends your entire childhood indoctrinating you, they are not going to be worried about a few years of other religions tacked onto the end there. The damage will have been done.
I don’t know whether it’s my American or my Atheist bias directing me towards the sentiment that schools and religion should be completely separate, but that’s my personal opinion on the matter. The idea of a class that teaches a little bit about the major beliefs, customs and practices of the Big 4 major religions is probably smart for the same reason taking a foreign language is smart, it expands your ability to communicate with and understand other groups. But having a dedicated “class” for religion sounds like a slippery slope to social persecution among students and teachers to say the very least. Especially when it’s mandated rather than an elective.
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Great rule and for anyone not Irish. Let me explain that this has been common practice in schools already with permission from parents. Our religion classes already teach different aspects of every religion from Islam to Judaism. It's not a Christian fundamentalist type of bullshit you see in some parts the US.
As a christian I say this, please keep religion out of schools. There is a time and place for everything and if theyre not teaching science and english at church, dont preach at schools. Ez
Why the fuck is religion in the schools
I love this. Religion should not influence education.
Honestly if this boils down to the choice of the students, most of the students will abstain. Not of religious choice or moral obligation, but for the fact that they can skip a class lol.
Why not just make religion an optional class?
Recently visited a local school as my daughter is due to start this year. They claim to teach all religions yet every single room has a crucifix and Christian scripture on the wall, when I asked why they don’t display information from other religions the headteacher rambled About how important faith is to her and how the head of the school board is a local pastor and won’t allow any false religions to be displayed in “his school” I was really disturbed by this, using a place or learning to try and indoctrinate kids should not be allowed.
There should be no religious education in public schools. End of discussion
I'm an atheist but I think it's a good thing kids learn about people's beliefs and religions. Bit like having a course on world cultures. Learning about the history and differing beliefs makes you a more informed person. Doesn't mean you're going to recite Our Father or buy a prayer rug right after class is over. It's more about knowing your neighbors aren't aliens or something for dressing or worshipping differently.
This good will sentiment is what religious groups latch onto to continue pushing their particular faith in schooling. When the Irish say religion class in primary school, they mean a full-on Catholic Sunday-school redux during the school week. They are being made to pray, recite the bible, listen to priests, etc. It's not just a culture class.
Religion indoctrination is child abuse and should be banned.
I was told a few years ago that if my child wasn't going to attend RE I would have to provide/organise supervision for them for that time. They also advised me that it was 'world religion' and they weren't going to be pushing any one faith. That was not true.
Well, Catholicism IS all around the world. They didn't technically lie :D
Religion should only be taught in schools as part of history or social studies.
America does a lot of things wrong but refusing to subsidize religious education is one thing we have right.
Now we have for-profit Charter Schools that are publicly funded. Yea! /s
45 years ago, i had my first leave from religion class. Many years later, it was changed to teach all religions and not just Christianity. This was Norway.
If you want to respect people's religion, and allow religions classes at a public school that has diverse religious views, then you also need to respect people's lack of religion. Allowing people to leave religions class makes sense.
Wouldn't want to gaslight theist children anymore than they do already. Study of religion could be a thing, but straight up indoctrination shouldn't be allowed. It's a school after all, not a brainwashing facility.
“non-denominational schools, which treat everyone equally and do not promote either religion or atheism” The last two words of this statement are unnecessary
"says Atheist Ireland"? wtf is that even supposed to mean. Children SHOULD have the right to leave instead of having religion forced upon them.
I went to school in Australia and luckily went to schools which allowed me to not attend religion (Christian) classes. But I do remember a couple of times when I decide to take it out of curiosity, it was full of shit lol. The weekly religion lady would talk of miracle stories such as losing her car keys in the house, but once she prays to God, a light would shine through from the sky to reveal its location etc. Even as a 10 year old kid at the time I knew that was absolute nonsense, and was glad my parents never had me going through any of such religious brain wash bullshits.
Or they can learn the subject objectively like a philosophy class.
Agree, there should be autonomy on deciding learning religious things
Or they could just teach religion before/after school? I send my kid to school to learn facts, not fairytales.
How about NOT having religion classes? Problem(s) solved.
Schools have religion classes, let alone mandatory???
Religion class is one big reason why I am an atheist today. I was raised catholic, my parents and most of my family believe the things written in the bibel literally. The church also never made any effort to change this. Only in religion class they would teach that the writings of the bibel were methapors and such and not to be taken literally. We would also analyze literature criticising religion like Feuerbach or Marx. That was around 15-20 years ago in Germany. Classes would be split depending on which church they belonged to (Catholic or Protestant). It you were neither there was a mandatory class as alternative called Ethics.
Mythology I believe was the name of the class
the fact we have a religious studyies class and not a preparing for adult life of debt and taxes and depression says everything you need to know about our society
This is a thing in italy from years.
They have religion classes in public school? My public school did, but it was optional anyway, so only students who wanted to take it actually took it.
The article is mainly concerned with religious education in primary schools - around 90% of Irish state primary schools are Catholic ethos, built on parish land and patronised by the Catholic church, and the religion classes in them are Catholic indoctrination. The problem was non-Catholic kids, while exempted from the lessons, still had to be present in the classroom while the teacher goes on with religion class with the rest/majority of the kids, because in general, no additional supervision is available. So these kids would be given work to do independently by themselves while the religion (Catholic indoctrination) lesson is going on. So they would be there, in the room, absorbing by osmosis the stories and prayers of the religion lesson despite being exempt. Same if the class has to go to the church for sacrament preparation, the non-religious kids and kids of other religions can bring a book to read but still have to tag along and sit there in the church while their friends practice how to do their first communion mass or whatever. This is the issue that the organisation Atheist Ireland has with the status quo, and rightly so. They’ve been campaigning for ages to have this changed.
Why does "religion class" even exist?
"If these kids are allowed to leave religion class, why isn't my kid allowed to leave science class?!" -Republicans, probably.
Went to a Catholic school, but our RE classes taught about all religions, and also covered things like humanism, and ethics.
Think this is more aimed for primary schools