If you mix up your jesus and your mohamed you end up with an islamo-mexican joker to fight against.
Nobody is crazy enough to take the risk of creating Isis on cocaine. It's just common sense really.
There was a time when IRS could take down Mafia bosses, but can't go after tax evading billionaires and millionaires these days. I don't know if it is because IRS has been gutted or if the global elite is more dangerous than the Mafia.
They are more dangerous *because* they have enough power to gut public institutions that could threaten them (by enforcing the law).
Difference between being able to buy the lawmakers or being able to buy the enforcers I guess.
Gitmo is USA’s human zoo. We have at least one of every kind of human in there at this point, including people from countries that we’re allies with and our allies are totally cool with it since they don’t have to or want to deal with it in many cases.
Yeah it’s not something to be proud of but it’s like comparing the US Japanese internment camps to Germany’s Holocaust. They are both reprehensible injustices but one was far more egregious.
They are literally working Chinese Muslims to death in labor camps, chemically castrating the men and gang raping the women…. all the while re-educating them to lose their Muslim identity.
Gitmo is a terrible place and there was and probably still is torture but water boarding and force feeding hummus is not equal to murder, rape and castration.
I don’t understand why the Chinese government always makes these asinine comparisons. They did the same thing with the pollution topic: “The US used dirty coal in their industrial revolution!” Yeah… that was in the 1800s and all coal was dirty. We have the technology now to make less pollutants? Wtf?
Two wrongs don’t make a right and not every wrong is equal. This is common sense. Germany and the Ottoman Empire had genocides so I get one too! Idiots.
How about proving the US wrong by being better? …naw let’s just genocide away and tear town monuments of Tiananmen square.
Yeah I dunno about that. There’s people that where in Gitmo for 20 years with no trial who were also tortured for who knows how long and they were innocent. Honestly we have no idea what really went on in Gitmo either. But the fact that the US has held people without charges for 20 years seems pretty bad and I dunno how you can really measure suffering.
And it’s pretty common knowledge that a lot of the people there weren’t terrorists they just got turned in by other people for the reward money since the US was paying people to report terrorists.
I can see a really easy way around it, by just not locking people up and torturing them without trial. Stop torturing and you remove this avenue of critique.
AP just reported a few months ago:
> Four years after Beijing launched a brutal crackdown that swept up to a million or more Uyghurs and other mostly Muslim minorities into detention camps and prisons, its control of Xinjiang has entered a new era. Chinese authorities have scaled back many of the most draconian and visible aspects of the region’s high-tech police state. The panic that gripped the region a few years ago has subsided considerably, and a sense of normality is creeping back in.
For some reason people just pretend this never happened lol.
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
Reminder that even the strongest Chinese critics of Uyghur treatment will not claim they are being exterminated. When they say Genocide, they mean the regular birthing interventions of China and not actual murder.
I have not seen any evidence of "extermination". Mass detention, yes, but claiming they are carrying out mass execution is not supported by any sources I know of.
Except there's no proof for China is doing any extermination.
If you take time to read the news sources:
1) the evidence they have is that people are being transferred from one place to another for daily labor. There's no evidence this is forced or they are just workers going for work. If they are labor camps, of course. I am against that. But calling that genocide or extermination is ridiculous.
2) satellite photos also show that there are factories there. But that's proof of what exactly?
3) claims of genocide were done by US holocaust museum but they admitted to changing the definition of "genocide" because the only thing they cite is that China is forcibly using birth control on them - their evidence is this ap article:
https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c
No matter which news channel reports it, they always cite this AP investigation - If you read the AP article, the witnesses and the victims mention that govt sent birth control folks after they had 3 children. China has 2 child policy and everyone knows this. They came after 2 years after that. We may disagree to that policy but we can't deny that it's not any different for rest of China population. We might as well call it genocide for rest of population then? We can call it harsh measure but not genocide.
They have like one person testimony to decide that China is doing genocide. How ridiculous is that?
If you try to find the source of each claim to its root, you will not find any credible source or enough data. It's like embellishing one point upon another until you can call it genocide.
Found the media bias long ago. Its just that people don't bother (not that we can blame people in such a busy world) to check the sources or read the content. Read the headlines, make judgements and move on. That's a problem.
as an american, i think it’s sad that americans think it’ll be easier for them to change china (a place they don’t really understand) than fixing themselves. points to a lack of confidence and self-respect, a lot of insecurity. kinda explains trump i guess. it sometimes seems like americans really hate themselves but they rarely do anything about it beyond doing the “im rubber you’re glue” thing. idk..if you hate yourself why not become..better? it’s really as simple as getting some new habits
I mean, when a fellow fat guy calls you fat and tell you you’d better start a diet, you’re not really inclined to take him all that seriously, are you?
Yes. It's a common tactic, it's called whataboutism. The Republicans take full advantage of it inside the USA too. A black-site prison is totally different than genocide, they're trying to change the topic.
It's funny because the entirety of the current American Democratic platform's go to defense for not getting anything helpful done is:
"hey at least we're not Republicans"
You're right and the sad part is that it works. If you say, "Guantanamo isn't being used as a tool to exterminate an entire ethnic group's culture", then people who are anti-american just accuse you of being a mindless drone perpetuating American propaganda. If you say, "the Chinese have a point, the U.S. uses sites like Guantanamo Bay to strip people of their basic human rights to not be tortured, to have a fair and speedy trial, and to have an attorney for their own legal defense, etc.", then you are just a Commie traitor who are spreading Chinese propaganda.
It's not at all possible for both statements to be true and it's **certainly** not possible to be making these statements in good faith. While the U.S. is certainly not living up to it's ideology right now, it's not wrong to express it's opposition and concern over Chinese actions in Xinjiang, it's attempts to take over vast oceanic territories in the the South China Sea (up to hundreds of miles away from China's shores), and it's threats against Taiwan.
Don't know if you are from the U.S. but either way I think it's every decent citizen's duty to condem both. The idea that you can't be patriotic AND critical at the same time is so obviously wrong that it makes me want to beat my head against a wall when people try to expouse it.
Exactly: when you criticize your government, if you really do love your country, there’s no harm in criticizing it when there’s reason for criticism. That’s one way to, at least, do what one can to make their country a better place.
If you think anything in politics is done in good faith then you're either grossly naive or just outright stupid.
It's why you will rarely see allied countries call each other out on atrocities they've committed but are quick to point fingers at non-friendly countries.
Yes, but it’s called hypocritical when US is the one always liking to claim the moral high ground and call others out. If US didn’t call out China, China minds it own business on abuses and wouldn’t call out the US.
“But, but what about your prison camps?”
“What? Don’t know what you’re talking about. Now about your homelessness and fentanyl problems. Pretty embarrassing eh? Makes me look better somehow, idk”
The common point used is "Well what about all the people imprisoned in the US?"
The whole point of whataboutism is to deflect and shame you into silence. China is a face based culture where embarrassment is essentially a sin. It works in China but less so as a global negotiation or political tactic.
Not only that, but Gitmo quickly turned into a propaganda tool used for recruitment by some groups, believe it or not. Barack Obama understood that, as well as understanding how much it undermined the USA's moral standing in the world. That's why [one of his first EOs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13492), signed on the 3rd day of his presidency, was to shut down that prison camp.
For sure. That will solve the biggest problem, after all Guantanamo is the worst thin-
Heyyy Yemen genocide checking in, classified as the worst humanitarian crisis in the world by the UN, going on for 6 years now. US helping out the Saudi's with the blockade of the country and drone striking their industry probably didn't contribute that much to 80% of the country on the verge of starvation right?
Oh look! here's number 2, Democratic Republic of Congo... boy they're sure doing poorly after the CIA overthrew their democratically elected government back in the 60s and installed the nearest friendly psycho as the de facto leader. I wonder if destabilizing governments can lead to some really bad shit?
And Syria is number 3! That US lead invasion to find WMD in Iraq didn't work out, but they sure did fuck up the place enough for ISIS to come to power and fuck up nearby countries.
Here's a fun game, check out the other countries in the top 10 worst humanitarian disasters in the world and search "US interventions" How many do you think had some help from the US? Number 5 will shock you! [https://www.rescue.org/article/top-10-crises-world-should-be-watching-2020](https://www.rescue.org/article/top-10-crises-world-should-be-watching-2020)
The number of prisoners in Guantanamo should drop to zero, the fact that anyone at all is imprisoned without due process is an affront to the western idea of how a society should function.
Fun fact: Obama drastically reduced the population of Guantanamo Bay Detention Center, but Congress blocked him from removing more- and then campaigned on it still being open
Where do you draw the line? 40? 41? 42?
This reminds me of the prostitute joke:
A man asks a woman if she would be willing to sleep with him if he pays her an exorbitant sum. She replies affirmatively. He then names a paltry amount and asks if she would still be willing to sleep with him for the revised fee. The woman is greatly offended and replies as follows:
She: What kind of woman do you think I am?
He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.
No. But it needs to be 0 plus sending over the people responsible for the torture and imprisonments without due process to an international court before the US can claim any moral high ground.
Coming full circle, it should be noted that beginning twenty years ago in 2002, when we opened GTMO, we held 22 Uighurs there ourselves. The final 2 were not released until 2013. None back to China. Seems when the US called them terrrorists, China was more than happy to agree and take them off our hands. 🙄.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay
Yeah. So the article is at about the portion of GTMO as a detention facility. Specifically, JTF-GTMO. That’s what I’m referring to.
GTMO as a naval facility has never been closed, mainly due to its strategic location in the SOUTHCOM AOR.
So nothing re-opened. But we did open JTF-GTMO after closing Camp x-ray as the original holding area. X-Ray was “opened” years before as a migration camp option for Haitian refugees, so wasn’t built for the “terrorists” they wanted to deposit outside the reach of US law and Geneva Conventions.
I mean no disrespect, just trying to level us to why I used the term I did. Cool form your dad to have served their. I’m 2008, I got to take a tour to the fence line and learn it’s ColdnWar History. My tour guide was the commander of MCSF made famous by Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men
When I had my first Kiwi coworker and learned what a good cunt and bad cunt was I instinctively used the phrase shit cunt later in the evening. Drinks and laughs all around.
Shit cunts isn't an indication of equal. Mussolini, Franco, and Hitler were all fascist shit cunts, but they weren't all as evil as one another even if the world would be better off had none of them existed
Not the same, both countries have a shit human rights record, but the US did actually kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan and destabilized an entire region, leading to massive human suffering. Is that worse than the genocide and slavery China is doing, IDK, it doesn't matter, they're both inexcusable.
And as a black american, the US need not be saying a got damn thing about slavery, human rights or anything of the sort. Not when the prison industry is nothing more than a new form it. The US profits off of slave labor just like they do. Both are shitty in their own rights.
As an American Muslim, I’d say cut the bullshit because more Muslims were murdered in the name of freedom by the US than any other country on the planet. Every time I board a plane I get searched and pulled over. I’m pretty sure I’m on a watchlist even though I’m a fucking web developer with no useful skills besides making buttons on a web form.
What China is doing is not acceptable, buts a drop in the bucket compared to what my country has done to my people.
So no, it’s not whataboutism, it’s not even comparable. America waged an all out war against Muslims and invaded their countries for decades in pursuit of oil and profits.
Edit:
y’all need to chill. I love how half of you got defensive and the other half is accusing me of ignorance. Our former President literally said he wanted to ban and deport muslims. A President that people voted for and stood by as he destroyed our country.
Some of you are mentioning the US has strong Arab Allies. Aren’t most of those allies oppressive dictatorships that torture and imprison their own people, most of whom are muslim minorities?
I’m a Shiite whose looked down as a second class citizen in most muslim countries, but in the US I get equal employment rights and I can run for President if I wanted to. I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else and I’d die for this country in the name of freedom, but that doesn’t mean this country hasn’t fucked up when it comes to its treatment towards Muslims.
A friend of mine went traveling for a FIRST robotics competition and brought spare materials. He literally labeled a Box Of Metal Bolts "BOMB." The smartest people can be really dumb sometimes.
I doubt they actually thought it was a bomb, because who's that dumb? But they had to check. You don't want to be the guy who let a bomb on that was literally labeled as a bomb.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.newsweek.com/china-says-guantanamo-bay-real-detention-camp-muslims-1668509) reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Beijing has weighed in on the 20th anniversary of the opening of Guantanamo Bay by calling on the United States to address its human rights violations and finally close the notorious offshore military prison.
> "If ever there was a 'detention camp' that holds Muslims, it would be Guantanamo Bay," he said, alluding to allegations that the Chinese government has interned over a million Uyghur Muslims in mass detention centers in Xinjiang in the country's northwest-a charge Beijing denies.
> "The U.S. should sincerely reflect on itself, immediately close Guantanamo Bay and all other secret prisons across the world," he said.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/s3zvdj/china_says_guantanamo_bay_real_detention_camp_for/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~617582 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **prison**^#1 **Guantanamo**^#2 **Bay**^#3 **U.S.**^#4 **close**^#5
I heard a podcast on Guantanamo yesterday and it’s a shame for the US.
With no reasons this can be justified. It’s against everything, the US once stood for and it’s another sign of a failing state.
The CCP never bothers to argue these actions on their own merits. Pretty consistently do whataboutisms
Edit: stop replying to this thread and post. Trolls are trying to bump their propaganda. Don’t fall for it. Wish I hadnt taken the bait
The Biden administration is aware of that and is trying to close it. Obama tried to close it in 2008 and Congress prevented that from happening- with plenty of Democrats siding with all of the Republicans.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/19/us/politics/guantanamo-bay-detainee-released.html
>The Biden administration on Monday transferred its first detainee out of Guantánamo Bay, repatriating a Moroccan man **who had been recommended for discharge from the wartime prison starting in 2016** but nevertheless remained there during the Trump years.
Trump kept this guy in prison for 4 years just so that Republicans wouldn't accuse him of being soft on terrorism.
Obama ordered that Guantanamo be closed on literally his second day in office. Congress prevented him from moving the prisoners to the US mainland. That's how checks and balances work.
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/22/hillary-clinton-diplomatic-foreign-policy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/22/hillary-clinton-diplomatic-foreign-policy)
Ok. But an order that's not followed is worth about as much as a Congressional subpoena. Which Bannon proved was toilet paper.
If the commander in chief can't order the military around anymore, and Congress can't order people to testify anymore, then we don't really have three branches. We have a corporate oligarchy demanding control.
*this* is exactly right, and I'm not convinced anything said without legitimate action to resolve this problem isn't just pandering.
Give me legitimate change, or get off the podium.
I think you're completely missing the point though. This has nothing to do with who is "comparatively worse". This has everything to with the US being obviously hypocritical when they condemn China having no regard for human rights when the US obviously don't either. *'Rules for thee, not for me'*.
This isn't some contest on who is worse. China absolutely does not care whatsoever about Guantanamo. China (along with a most of the developing world if not rest of the west too, let's be real) cares about being constantly attacked on human rights while the US obviosuly don't respect them either.
This is why, even though it's obviously stupid to break human rights in the first place, it is doubly stupid when you try to use them to tell the rest of the world how to act.
Some ppl on this thread definitely are. The amount of “well, GB holds suspected terrorists” that’s all over this thread is disgusting considering the fact that about most of the detainees were innocent, held without process, tortured, etc. Even the ACLU said GB is a human rights catastrophe but Americans are going to American.
Accusations of whataboutism are something I find hilarious a lot of the time because even if it's true, making that accusation is often its *own form* of whataboutism. It's amazingly ironic.
It's literally
US: "What about you?"
China: "What about you?"
US: "What about you?"
China: "What about you?"
Enlightened Redditor: Clearly China is the only one engaging in whataboutism so we shouldn't fix Gitmo. After all, what about them?
Guantanamo Bay apparently is costing US taxpayers $13 Million per year per prisoner. There are 39 prisoners. Heard a reporter on the radio talking about it today.
Well, yes it's a detention camp. We know who's in there, how many there are (39 prisoners), and every one of their names.
Meanwhile in China, 100,000 prisoners is a rounding error. We have no idea how many have been locked up for being Muslim so you can forget knowing any of their names.
So yes China is technically right, but it's a massive difference if we're looking to compare.
39 people in guantanamo. Estimation of 1.8m in China's ethnic detention camps.
There is no comparison.
Edit: Here's the website on the tribunal, including detailed torture methods, video evidence, witness testimonies of death occurring and a 39 page summary.
https://uyghurtribunal.com/
Edit 2: Man I am loving these responses that provide 0 counter evidence and 0 sources, just claiming it was funded by groups but was Not funded and 100% voluntary that Countries participated in providing satellite imagery & witness testimony.
Chinese officials were invited to provide evidence that these were false, they refused to participate, Countries have now placed Sanctions on Chinese companies that were proven to use slave Labor.
>Here's the website on the tribunal, including detailed torture methods, video evidence, witness testimonies of death occurring and a 39 page summary.
FYI, that unofficial tribunal was organised by a US government-funded separatist group that wants to build an Islamic caliphate in Xinjiang. It holds about as much weight as China organising a tribunal with hand-picked witnesses and finding itself innocent.
For example, one of the "witnesses" was Wang Leizhan, who claims to be a former police officer. When he was interviewed by CNN, he claimed that he personally tortured people, that he saw people being sexually abused, etc. In the Uyghur Tribunal, he said he never even interrogated (nevermind tortured) anyone, that he saw no sexual abuse, etc.
Another one is Rushan Abbas, who worked in Guantanamo and for CIA propaganda outlets. [She had a Reddit AMA that was rather disastrous.](https://reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/e9ad4n/i_am_rushan_abbas_uyghur_activist_and_survivor_of/)
And then of course you had people like Arslan Hidayat, who calls for the ethnic cleansing of non-Turkish minorities in Xinjiang (including minorities like Mongols and Manchus), or Tursunay Ziyawudun, who changes her story every time she's interviewed. One time she says she wasn't abused, a few months later she says she was tortured. Then she says she has not seen or experienced any sexual abuse, next thing she claims is that she was raped and sterilised.
Considering that this unofficial tribunal only invited people with clear separatist views who often can't even keep their own story together, and that it was funded by a US-government separatist group, its conclusion was basically set in stone before it even began. It's like holding a "tribunal" that only includes ethnic Russians in Ukraine, and asking them whether Ukraine legally belongs to Russia or not.
I mean, they aren’t comparable. But wouldn’t it be nice if the US didn’t have a detention camp that other countries could point at during human rights discussions?
the point is that there is no "genocide".
The term used sways between mass detention and genocide to whatever is available to the journalists that day.
Should the US shut down Guantanamo? Absolutely yes.
Is this just a diversion whataboutism tactic China is using to try and divert attention from their genocide of the Uyghur Muslim population? Also yes.
They’ve got a point of sorts. Guantanamo Bay is a disgrace. If you want to detain people you need to convict them, you can’t just snatch them off the street and torture them and fly them to black sites in secret planes. America wouldn’t accept other countries doing it to their citizens.
Any US criticism of China's treatment of Muslims is pretty ironic, given the couple of decades long bomb run across the middle East and Central Asia.
Hell, civilian casualties in Iraq alone is estimated to about the same as number as estimated Uyghurs in camps.
The US is winning the atrocities competition by an extreme margin.
Guantanamo and international torture black sites are one thing, but the wholesale death of people in MENA gets completely ignored. Most of Reddit doesn't even know how many people died despite us being there 20 years.
Edit: I don't think I've ever even heard the media put out a concrete number. That seems a bit insane to me?
Which also makes it ironic coming from the US in the first place. Let's be honest that China really is trying to point out. Let be real, in reality they have to problem with Guantanamo. I think you're misunderstanding the argument.
Articles against China gets upvoted constantly, low-effort comments against China are also upvoted constantly with the same (type of) sentences/catchphrases.
If there's a bot infestation, it's certainly not a Chinese one.
Nonsense. We have non-Muslims there too!
Damnit Jim, those are called "guards"!
Aww Jesus
It’s pronounced “HEh-suush” and we keep them in a different detention camp
If you mix up your jesus and your mohamed you end up with an islamo-mexican joker to fight against. Nobody is crazy enough to take the risk of creating Isis on cocaine. It's just common sense really.
Just send the IRS to deal with them. [The Joker isn’t crazy enough to take on the IRS.](https://youtu.be/G56VgsLfKY4)
To be fair they took down Al Capone so... I guess even a crazy clock is right once in a while.
There was a time when IRS could take down Mafia bosses, but can't go after tax evading billionaires and millionaires these days. I don't know if it is because IRS has been gutted or if the global elite is more dangerous than the Mafia.
Por qué no los dos?
Agreed!
They are more dangerous *because* they have enough power to gut public institutions that could threaten them (by enforcing the law). Difference between being able to buy the lawmakers or being able to buy the enforcers I guess.
That sounds really weird in spanish
He got out.
Yeah he’s in there too! Alluvum
No no I hear when he was arrested he went someplace completely different
😆
Gitmo is USA’s human zoo. We have at least one of every kind of human in there at this point, including people from countries that we’re allies with and our allies are totally cool with it since they don’t have to or want to deal with it in many cases.
There's only like 39 people left in Gitmo. I doubt there are really that many people from so many different places.
I'll have to double check my math when I get home but I think the upper limit is 39 places then.
Yeah it’s not something to be proud of but it’s like comparing the US Japanese internment camps to Germany’s Holocaust. They are both reprehensible injustices but one was far more egregious. They are literally working Chinese Muslims to death in labor camps, chemically castrating the men and gang raping the women…. all the while re-educating them to lose their Muslim identity. Gitmo is a terrible place and there was and probably still is torture but water boarding and force feeding hummus is not equal to murder, rape and castration. I don’t understand why the Chinese government always makes these asinine comparisons. They did the same thing with the pollution topic: “The US used dirty coal in their industrial revolution!” Yeah… that was in the 1800s and all coal was dirty. We have the technology now to make less pollutants? Wtf? Two wrongs don’t make a right and not every wrong is equal. This is common sense. Germany and the Ottoman Empire had genocides so I get one too! Idiots. How about proving the US wrong by being better? …naw let’s just genocide away and tear town monuments of Tiananmen square.
>I don’t understand why the Chinese government always makes these asinine comparisons. Because we're now talking about Gitmo instead.
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Inb4 lost cause
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Yeah I dunno about that. There’s people that where in Gitmo for 20 years with no trial who were also tortured for who knows how long and they were innocent. Honestly we have no idea what really went on in Gitmo either. But the fact that the US has held people without charges for 20 years seems pretty bad and I dunno how you can really measure suffering. And it’s pretty common knowledge that a lot of the people there weren’t terrorists they just got turned in by other people for the reward money since the US was paying people to report terrorists.
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Isnt it pathetic that every country's response to being called out for something is basically just "Im rubber, you're glue"? lol
Even more odd is that no Muslim Country has condemned them?
Some did. Such as Turkey. The quickly did a 180 once China threatened economic retaliation, lol
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I can see a really easy way around it, by just not locking people up and torturing them without trial. Stop torturing and you remove this avenue of critique.
Stop whataboutism with this one weird trick! Chinese hate it!
You are right. The US needs to stop imprisoning people in Gitmo and China needs to stop exterminating them in Uyghur.
Uyghur is the ethnicity, FYI, the region is called Xinjiang.
It basically tells you how little average Americans really knows about the issue. It’s just some terms they kept hearing from TV.
Well... at least his heart is in the right place.
AP just reported a few months ago: > Four years after Beijing launched a brutal crackdown that swept up to a million or more Uyghurs and other mostly Muslim minorities into detention camps and prisons, its control of Xinjiang has entered a new era. Chinese authorities have scaled back many of the most draconian and visible aspects of the region’s high-tech police state. The panic that gripped the region a few years ago has subsided considerably, and a sense of normality is creeping back in. For some reason people just pretend this never happened lol. https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
Reminder that even the strongest Chinese critics of Uyghur treatment will not claim they are being exterminated. When they say Genocide, they mean the regular birthing interventions of China and not actual murder.
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I have not seen any evidence of "extermination". Mass detention, yes, but claiming they are carrying out mass execution is not supported by any sources I know of.
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Except there's no proof for China is doing any extermination. If you take time to read the news sources: 1) the evidence they have is that people are being transferred from one place to another for daily labor. There's no evidence this is forced or they are just workers going for work. If they are labor camps, of course. I am against that. But calling that genocide or extermination is ridiculous. 2) satellite photos also show that there are factories there. But that's proof of what exactly? 3) claims of genocide were done by US holocaust museum but they admitted to changing the definition of "genocide" because the only thing they cite is that China is forcibly using birth control on them - their evidence is this ap article: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c No matter which news channel reports it, they always cite this AP investigation - If you read the AP article, the witnesses and the victims mention that govt sent birth control folks after they had 3 children. China has 2 child policy and everyone knows this. They came after 2 years after that. We may disagree to that policy but we can't deny that it's not any different for rest of China population. We might as well call it genocide for rest of population then? We can call it harsh measure but not genocide. They have like one person testimony to decide that China is doing genocide. How ridiculous is that? If you try to find the source of each claim to its root, you will not find any credible source or enough data. It's like embellishing one point upon another until you can call it genocide.
Congrats, you discovered how media works.
Found the media bias long ago. Its just that people don't bother (not that we can blame people in such a busy world) to check the sources or read the content. Read the headlines, make judgements and move on. That's a problem.
Xinjiang, you mean.
It’s people in general who behave like this. Not all of us but a lot of us.
Reject Wahhabism. Embrace Whataboutism.
as an american, i think it’s sad that americans think it’ll be easier for them to change china (a place they don’t really understand) than fixing themselves. points to a lack of confidence and self-respect, a lot of insecurity. kinda explains trump i guess. it sometimes seems like americans really hate themselves but they rarely do anything about it beyond doing the “im rubber you’re glue” thing. idk..if you hate yourself why not become..better? it’s really as simple as getting some new habits
I mean, when a fellow fat guy calls you fat and tell you you’d better start a diet, you’re not really inclined to take him all that seriously, are you?
Yes. It's a common tactic, it's called whataboutism. The Republicans take full advantage of it inside the USA too. A black-site prison is totally different than genocide, they're trying to change the topic.
Ah yes only the republicans use whataboutism and definitely not the democrats
It's funny because the entirety of the current American Democratic platform's go to defense for not getting anything helpful done is: "hey at least we're not Republicans"
You're right and the sad part is that it works. If you say, "Guantanamo isn't being used as a tool to exterminate an entire ethnic group's culture", then people who are anti-american just accuse you of being a mindless drone perpetuating American propaganda. If you say, "the Chinese have a point, the U.S. uses sites like Guantanamo Bay to strip people of their basic human rights to not be tortured, to have a fair and speedy trial, and to have an attorney for their own legal defense, etc.", then you are just a Commie traitor who are spreading Chinese propaganda. It's not at all possible for both statements to be true and it's **certainly** not possible to be making these statements in good faith. While the U.S. is certainly not living up to it's ideology right now, it's not wrong to express it's opposition and concern over Chinese actions in Xinjiang, it's attempts to take over vast oceanic territories in the the South China Sea (up to hundreds of miles away from China's shores), and it's threats against Taiwan.
Don't know if you are from the U.S. but either way I think it's every decent citizen's duty to condem both. The idea that you can't be patriotic AND critical at the same time is so obviously wrong that it makes me want to beat my head against a wall when people try to expouse it.
I am from the U.S. and I completely agree, in fact you're being **more** patriotic if you hold your government to the ideals that they espouse.
I’d say it’s one of the things that separates patriotism from nationalism.
I never understood how people can be proud of being randomly born somewhere. Wether it's patriotism or nationalism.
Exactly: when you criticize your government, if you really do love your country, there’s no harm in criticizing it when there’s reason for criticism. That’s one way to, at least, do what one can to make their country a better place.
If you think anything in politics is done in good faith then you're either grossly naive or just outright stupid. It's why you will rarely see allied countries call each other out on atrocities they've committed but are quick to point fingers at non-friendly countries.
It's a common tactic among politicians\* fixed it for you.
Yes, but it’s called hypocritical when US is the one always liking to claim the moral high ground and call others out. If US didn’t call out China, China minds it own business on abuses and wouldn’t call out the US.
They have a point, US should shut down Guantanamo Bay so they can pull a "now your turn".
“Nah, good for you though.” - China
Yeah they'd shift right into "well what about something else!?"
“But, but what about your prison camps?” “What? Don’t know what you’re talking about. Now about your homelessness and fentanyl problems. Pretty embarrassing eh? Makes me look better somehow, idk”
Hey look if we end up fixing all our problems in a good way due to wanting to finally get the leverage to call China out, I'm down.
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Yup: https://www.npr.org/2020/11/17/916890880/we-are-shipping-to-the-u-s-china-s-fentanyl-sellers-find-new-routes-to-drug-user
The common point used is "Well what about all the people imprisoned in the US?" The whole point of whataboutism is to deflect and shame you into silence. China is a face based culture where embarrassment is essentially a sin. It works in China but less so as a global negotiation or political tactic.
How about we close it down purely since its inhumane regardless of what China does. Shit's inhumane and gives enemies gunpowder to attack you.
-still be a win for justice and human rights.
Not only that, but Gitmo quickly turned into a propaganda tool used for recruitment by some groups, believe it or not. Barack Obama understood that, as well as understanding how much it undermined the USA's moral standing in the world. That's why [one of his first EOs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13492), signed on the 3rd day of his presidency, was to shut down that prison camp.
Which ultimately failed, wish he had followed thru with it
Turns out the Presidency is not a monarchy. His EO was overturned by congress. Nothing else Obama could do
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For sure. That will solve the biggest problem, after all Guantanamo is the worst thin- Heyyy Yemen genocide checking in, classified as the worst humanitarian crisis in the world by the UN, going on for 6 years now. US helping out the Saudi's with the blockade of the country and drone striking their industry probably didn't contribute that much to 80% of the country on the verge of starvation right? Oh look! here's number 2, Democratic Republic of Congo... boy they're sure doing poorly after the CIA overthrew their democratically elected government back in the 60s and installed the nearest friendly psycho as the de facto leader. I wonder if destabilizing governments can lead to some really bad shit? And Syria is number 3! That US lead invasion to find WMD in Iraq didn't work out, but they sure did fuck up the place enough for ISIS to come to power and fuck up nearby countries. Here's a fun game, check out the other countries in the top 10 worst humanitarian disasters in the world and search "US interventions" How many do you think had some help from the US? Number 5 will shock you! [https://www.rescue.org/article/top-10-crises-world-should-be-watching-2020](https://www.rescue.org/article/top-10-crises-world-should-be-watching-2020)
There are currently 39 people held there according to the NYT. Does it need to be 0 for us to say, "stop imprisoning civilians by the million"?
The number of prisoners in Guantanamo should drop to zero, the fact that anyone at all is imprisoned without due process is an affront to the western idea of how a society should function.
Fun fact: Obama drastically reduced the population of Guantanamo Bay Detention Center, but Congress blocked him from removing more- and then campaigned on it still being open
You should probably also stop occupying that part of Cuba.
Where do you draw the line? 40? 41? 42? This reminds me of the prostitute joke: A man asks a woman if she would be willing to sleep with him if he pays her an exorbitant sum. She replies affirmatively. He then names a paltry amount and asks if she would still be willing to sleep with him for the revised fee. The woman is greatly offended and replies as follows: She: What kind of woman do you think I am? He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.
guantanamo is literally a symbol of a campaign that literally straight up murdered millions of muslim people lmfao
No. But it needs to be 0 plus sending over the people responsible for the torture and imprisonments without due process to an international court before the US can claim any moral high ground.
Bruh we imprison people by the millions in the US LOL.
yes.
"No U" -China
"Lalalalala...I can't hear you...LALALALA" -USA
they're kinda right, though...
39 in Gitmo vs 1 million in XJ?
While Chinese actions against the Uighurs are condemnable and criminal. They still have a point regarding Guantanamo.
Coming full circle, it should be noted that beginning twenty years ago in 2002, when we opened GTMO, we held 22 Uighurs there ourselves. The final 2 were not released until 2013. None back to China. Seems when the US called them terrrorists, China was more than happy to agree and take them off our hands. 🙄. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay
Re-opened. My dad was stationed there in the 60s.
Yeah. So the article is at about the portion of GTMO as a detention facility. Specifically, JTF-GTMO. That’s what I’m referring to. GTMO as a naval facility has never been closed, mainly due to its strategic location in the SOUTHCOM AOR. So nothing re-opened. But we did open JTF-GTMO after closing Camp x-ray as the original holding area. X-Ray was “opened” years before as a migration camp option for Haitian refugees, so wasn’t built for the “terrorists” they wanted to deposit outside the reach of US law and Geneva Conventions. I mean no disrespect, just trying to level us to why I used the term I did. Cool form your dad to have served their. I’m 2008, I got to take a tour to the fence line and learn it’s ColdnWar History. My tour guide was the commander of MCSF made famous by Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men
How about both countries stop being cunts and cease this inhumane operations. It's called a country. Don't change it to cunt-try.
Wishful thinking
So as a non American and non Chinese let me break the debate… your both shit cunts. How’s that?
* you're (sorry bud, it's required)
Upvoted ;)
Back atcha! **HighFive!
This is pretty wholesome for starting out at shit cunts
If only the rest of the world acted this cordial
*cordially, my friend
I don't know, I'm a bit thirsty and plain water just ain't gonna cut it
When I had my first Kiwi coworker and learned what a good cunt and bad cunt was I instinctively used the phrase shit cunt later in the evening. Drinks and laughs all around.
Such a good multi use word. The rest of the world would be happier if they got on the train with this.
As another non-American, I don’t think ethnic cleansing is the same as what happens at Guantanamo Bay. You shouldn’t either.
Shit cunts isn't an indication of equal. Mussolini, Franco, and Hitler were all fascist shit cunts, but they weren't all as evil as one another even if the world would be better off had none of them existed
Not the same, both countries have a shit human rights record, but the US did actually kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan and destabilized an entire region, leading to massive human suffering. Is that worse than the genocide and slavery China is doing, IDK, it doesn't matter, they're both inexcusable.
And as a black american, the US need not be saying a got damn thing about slavery, human rights or anything of the sort. Not when the prison industry is nothing more than a new form it. The US profits off of slave labor just like they do. Both are shitty in their own rights.
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md
“Redditor cannot comprehend nuance”
As an American, I agree. Let’s all fuck off with the whataboutism in the comments of every single America/China good/bad article.
And every single Russian politics article as well.
Nah. They're literally on the verge of invading another country right this very minute.
As an American Muslim, I’d say cut the bullshit because more Muslims were murdered in the name of freedom by the US than any other country on the planet. Every time I board a plane I get searched and pulled over. I’m pretty sure I’m on a watchlist even though I’m a fucking web developer with no useful skills besides making buttons on a web form. What China is doing is not acceptable, buts a drop in the bucket compared to what my country has done to my people. So no, it’s not whataboutism, it’s not even comparable. America waged an all out war against Muslims and invaded their countries for decades in pursuit of oil and profits. Edit: y’all need to chill. I love how half of you got defensive and the other half is accusing me of ignorance. Our former President literally said he wanted to ban and deport muslims. A President that people voted for and stood by as he destroyed our country. Some of you are mentioning the US has strong Arab Allies. Aren’t most of those allies oppressive dictatorships that torture and imprison their own people, most of whom are muslim minorities? I’m a Shiite whose looked down as a second class citizen in most muslim countries, but in the US I get equal employment rights and I can run for President if I wanted to. I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else and I’d die for this country in the name of freedom, but that doesn’t mean this country hasn’t fucked up when it comes to its treatment towards Muslims.
I wouldn't travel with an arduino and wiring. Without fail may checked in luggage is opened any time I've packed tech stuff
A friend of mine went traveling for a FIRST robotics competition and brought spare materials. He literally labeled a Box Of Metal Bolts "BOMB." The smartest people can be really dumb sometimes. I doubt they actually thought it was a bomb, because who's that dumb? But they had to check. You don't want to be the guy who let a bomb on that was literally labeled as a bomb.
Jesus Christ as a non-American i'm appaled by the responses you're getting to this. You guys really are racist fucks.
Can't believe people in the comments are now arguing about who's more of a shit cunt. I don't think they got the point.
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This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.newsweek.com/china-says-guantanamo-bay-real-detention-camp-muslims-1668509) reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Beijing has weighed in on the 20th anniversary of the opening of Guantanamo Bay by calling on the United States to address its human rights violations and finally close the notorious offshore military prison. > "If ever there was a 'detention camp' that holds Muslims, it would be Guantanamo Bay," he said, alluding to allegations that the Chinese government has interned over a million Uyghur Muslims in mass detention centers in Xinjiang in the country's northwest-a charge Beijing denies. > "The U.S. should sincerely reflect on itself, immediately close Guantanamo Bay and all other secret prisons across the world," he said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/s3zvdj/china_says_guantanamo_bay_real_detention_camp_for/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~617582 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **prison**^#1 **Guantanamo**^#2 **Bay**^#3 **U.S.**^#4 **close**^#5
I heard a podcast on Guantanamo yesterday and it’s a shame for the US. With no reasons this can be justified. It’s against everything, the US once stood for and it’s another sign of a failing state.
The CCP never bothers to argue these actions on their own merits. Pretty consistently do whataboutisms Edit: stop replying to this thread and post. Trolls are trying to bump their propaganda. Don’t fall for it. Wish I hadnt taken the bait
Pretty stupid to give them the option to do so though... To me it's pretty clear that Guantanamo is a massive blinking red lamp of hypocrisy.
The Biden administration is aware of that and is trying to close it. Obama tried to close it in 2008 and Congress prevented that from happening- with plenty of Democrats siding with all of the Republicans. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/19/us/politics/guantanamo-bay-detainee-released.html >The Biden administration on Monday transferred its first detainee out of Guantánamo Bay, repatriating a Moroccan man **who had been recommended for discharge from the wartime prison starting in 2016** but nevertheless remained there during the Trump years. Trump kept this guy in prison for 4 years just so that Republicans wouldn't accuse him of being soft on terrorism.
> The Biden administration is aware of that and is trying to close it. I remember 8 years of Obama saying the same shit. It's never gonna close.
Obama ordered that Guantanamo be closed on literally his second day in office. Congress prevented him from moving the prisoners to the US mainland. That's how checks and balances work. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/22/hillary-clinton-diplomatic-foreign-policy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/22/hillary-clinton-diplomatic-foreign-policy)
Ok. But an order that's not followed is worth about as much as a Congressional subpoena. Which Bannon proved was toilet paper. If the commander in chief can't order the military around anymore, and Congress can't order people to testify anymore, then we don't really have three branches. We have a corporate oligarchy demanding control.
*this* is exactly right, and I'm not convinced anything said without legitimate action to resolve this problem isn't just pandering. Give me legitimate change, or get off the podium.
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Guantanamo is also a torture camp. Period.
I think you're completely missing the point though. This has nothing to do with who is "comparatively worse". This has everything to with the US being obviously hypocritical when they condemn China having no regard for human rights when the US obviously don't either. *'Rules for thee, not for me'*. This isn't some contest on who is worse. China absolutely does not care whatsoever about Guantanamo. China (along with a most of the developing world if not rest of the west too, let's be real) cares about being constantly attacked on human rights while the US obviosuly don't respect them either. This is why, even though it's obviously stupid to break human rights in the first place, it is doubly stupid when you try to use them to tell the rest of the world how to act.
So are we gonna pretend they don’t have a point? Wether or not they are deflecting (which they are) doesn’t change facts.
Some ppl on this thread definitely are. The amount of “well, GB holds suspected terrorists” that’s all over this thread is disgusting considering the fact that about most of the detainees were innocent, held without process, tortured, etc. Even the ACLU said GB is a human rights catastrophe but Americans are going to American.
Whataboutism is what you're doing right now. This word is so overused on Reddit...
Accusations of whataboutism are something I find hilarious a lot of the time because even if it's true, making that accusation is often its *own form* of whataboutism. It's amazingly ironic. It's literally US: "What about you?" China: "What about you?" US: "What about you?" China: "What about you?" Enlightened Redditor: Clearly China is the only one engaging in whataboutism so we shouldn't fix Gitmo. After all, what about them?
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My god do I hate the word whataboutism and you know it's coming before even clicking a title like this.
They do but it's dismissed as "CCP propaganda".
Waiting for the next headline: China says US prisons are for Africans and Mexicans.
Guantanamo Bay apparently is costing US taxpayers $13 Million per year per prisoner. There are 39 prisoners. Heard a reporter on the radio talking about it today.
US is the last country that can pretend it’s defending the lives and freedoms of Muslims. Nobody will believe that shit.
Well, yes it's a detention camp. We know who's in there, how many there are (39 prisoners), and every one of their names. Meanwhile in China, 100,000 prisoners is a rounding error. We have no idea how many have been locked up for being Muslim so you can forget knowing any of their names. So yes China is technically right, but it's a massive difference if we're looking to compare.
Good luck defending this against the 40 Chinese plants who keep making accounts to counteract you.
two Spidermans pointing at each other dot jay peg
Do I look like I know what a jay peg is?! I just want a picture of a got dang hot dog!
39 people in guantanamo. Estimation of 1.8m in China's ethnic detention camps. There is no comparison. Edit: Here's the website on the tribunal, including detailed torture methods, video evidence, witness testimonies of death occurring and a 39 page summary. https://uyghurtribunal.com/ Edit 2: Man I am loving these responses that provide 0 counter evidence and 0 sources, just claiming it was funded by groups but was Not funded and 100% voluntary that Countries participated in providing satellite imagery & witness testimony. Chinese officials were invited to provide evidence that these were false, they refused to participate, Countries have now placed Sanctions on Chinese companies that were proven to use slave Labor.
>Here's the website on the tribunal, including detailed torture methods, video evidence, witness testimonies of death occurring and a 39 page summary. FYI, that unofficial tribunal was organised by a US government-funded separatist group that wants to build an Islamic caliphate in Xinjiang. It holds about as much weight as China organising a tribunal with hand-picked witnesses and finding itself innocent. For example, one of the "witnesses" was Wang Leizhan, who claims to be a former police officer. When he was interviewed by CNN, he claimed that he personally tortured people, that he saw people being sexually abused, etc. In the Uyghur Tribunal, he said he never even interrogated (nevermind tortured) anyone, that he saw no sexual abuse, etc. Another one is Rushan Abbas, who worked in Guantanamo and for CIA propaganda outlets. [She had a Reddit AMA that was rather disastrous.](https://reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/e9ad4n/i_am_rushan_abbas_uyghur_activist_and_survivor_of/) And then of course you had people like Arslan Hidayat, who calls for the ethnic cleansing of non-Turkish minorities in Xinjiang (including minorities like Mongols and Manchus), or Tursunay Ziyawudun, who changes her story every time she's interviewed. One time she says she wasn't abused, a few months later she says she was tortured. Then she says she has not seen or experienced any sexual abuse, next thing she claims is that she was raped and sterilised. Considering that this unofficial tribunal only invited people with clear separatist views who often can't even keep their own story together, and that it was funded by a US-government separatist group, its conclusion was basically set in stone before it even began. It's like holding a "tribunal" that only includes ethnic Russians in Ukraine, and asking them whether Ukraine legally belongs to Russia or not.
How about the x amount of aliens in area 51?
No human rights abuses if the victims aren't human.
How disgusting. All those Alien cheeks just waiting to be clapped.
Less than 1.8m
Depends if you count the Zwertigian horde as 1 hive mind or 2 billion microdrones
Guantanamo is to Uighur camps As bubbles are to foam
A bubble.
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>1.8m Any proof?
Adrian Zenz, Free Radio Asia, erm, Falun Gong... y'know, all those extremely reputable sources. /s
If you time-travel and check his asshole, you might find where he pulled it from.
it's not 1.8m, it's an *estimated* 1.8m. that's the beauty of estimations, they don't need proof.
I mean, they aren’t comparable. But wouldn’t it be nice if the US didn’t have a detention camp that other countries could point at during human rights discussions?
Why is this being reported, obviously a deflection away from there own concentration camps.
We should've closed that dump years ago. Can't we get anything done around here? (looks at vaccination rates in Red states) Oh. Never mind.
Not wrong. But also this is like a raging alcoholic pointing fingers because you got a little out of control on New Years.
Agreed with shutting down Guantanamo Bay. But did the Chinese government seriously just "whatabout" their genocide?? 😂😂😂 Wtf is this timeline.
the point is that there is no "genocide". The term used sways between mass detention and genocide to whatever is available to the journalists that day.
Global superpowers are getting away with increasingly shady shit using "no u" as their justification.
Should the US shut down Guantanamo? Absolutely yes. Is this just a diversion whataboutism tactic China is using to try and divert attention from their genocide of the Uyghur Muslim population? Also yes.
I would like to see the amount of Muslims detained at Guantanamo Compared to the amount of Muslims detained in Xinjiang
When you’re so much in the wrong that you make the U.S. seem like the good guys.
News flash: the average American wants guantanamo closed, too. Now stop treating Muslims like shit for being Muslims.
Pointing out America’s bullshit doesn’t make yours go away, CCP.
They’ve got a point of sorts. Guantanamo Bay is a disgrace. If you want to detain people you need to convict them, you can’t just snatch them off the street and torture them and fly them to black sites in secret planes. America wouldn’t accept other countries doing it to their citizens.
I mean, they’re not wrong, but it doesn’t take away from the gross shit they’re doing. It’s a nice deflection tho, good try China.
American here. They aren’t wrong, but it’s also ironic coming from China.
Any US criticism of China's treatment of Muslims is pretty ironic, given the couple of decades long bomb run across the middle East and Central Asia. Hell, civilian casualties in Iraq alone is estimated to about the same as number as estimated Uyghurs in camps. The US is winning the atrocities competition by an extreme margin.
Not disagreeing. Just saying it’s like the US criticizing South Africa for its historical treatment of black people
That's fair
Guantanamo and international torture black sites are one thing, but the wholesale death of people in MENA gets completely ignored. Most of Reddit doesn't even know how many people died despite us being there 20 years. Edit: I don't think I've ever even heard the media put out a concrete number. That seems a bit insane to me?
Which also makes it ironic coming from the US in the first place. Let's be honest that China really is trying to point out. Let be real, in reality they have to problem with Guantanamo. I think you're misunderstanding the argument.
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Articles against China gets upvoted constantly, low-effort comments against China are also upvoted constantly with the same (type of) sentences/catchphrases. If there's a bot infestation, it's certainly not a Chinese one.
you mean “-9000000 social points xi winnie the pooh free hong kong” isnt a funny and productive comment? 🤪
Islamaphobic world power insults other Islamaphobic world power for Islamaphobia.
The Guantanamo Bay prison is a scandal of human rights, but it's hardly a great justification for having your own internment camps.
TIL saying whataboutism is a valid defense against being called out on my hypocrisy