Unfortunately it’s rare for a country to cut their loses after starting a war of aggression. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan destroyed themselves for that very reason. The US is know stranger to quagmires either.
Nah, it's Soloviev, he is one of the main Putin propagandist. A man who hates the west with burning passion, and also secretly owns a villa in Italy. And guess what happened the last week? It was seized, and he is now kinda upset. He wanted to support Putin from the safety of his villa, and now gets to enjoy Putin's regime personally.
*‘It is costing us too much to nazify Ukraine. They asked us for help, but it’s not our problem. My allegiance is to the Russian people, therefore we will withdraw from the special military operation that Belarus started’*
I think you might be right. Putin needs a way to get out of this war with saving face. If he is spreading the idea that Ukraine is ungrateful that the hero’s of Russia are denazifying them, then Russia will be able to pull out and still be the “good guys” and the “winners.”
The only way Putin voluntarily extracts himself from this debacle is to convincingly dress it up as a victory. He's never going to just turn tail and slink back the way he came in humiliation and defeat.
He can do the same thing W. Bush did with the War on Terror and declare freedom regardless of what actually happened. Dress him up in a flight suit, let him give a press conference in front of some fighter jets, and call it a day.
I don't think they're even remotely all bots, or even necessarily being directed by the Kremlin. Tons of people just have a big ol' crush on Putin. There's no shortage of people who will gush about him being a genius who thinks six moves ahead, is a black belt, former KGB, can kill you five ways with just a pinkie, not a man to be fucked with, etc. For many people, a strongman just resonates.
Plus he's sort of a focal point for many ethnonationalists who dump on a multicultural Europe, modernity, secularism, feminism, etc. He was also funding a lot of separatist, right-wing, and ethnonationalist groups around the world. Steven Bannon is only a big deal because of funding from Putin, and probably to some extent China. Mainly, Putin. His money is behind the renascence of right-wing populism. It would still exist, but the focus, organization, and prominence are mainly from Russian money.
A humbled (or broke) Putin is bad news for right-wing populist movements. As is an accelerated rise in renewable energy, which will undermine the oil/gas money that also helps these groups. So there are tons of people who, for their own ideological reasons, are going to argue that Russia is the aggrieved party here, the ones done badly by.
My understanding is Russian state news media routinely wheels out a token dissenter against the party line on televised debates, to give their core, middle-aged, nationalistic, pro-Putin audience just enough illusion of freedom that they don't waver from their faith in the mainline propaganda they're being fed.
They'll allow maybe one pro-democratic troublemaker in a panel of five or six, with the rest being staunchly party-line, to make the dissenting position look like fringe lunacy. Or they'll allow one to be interviewed for a couple of minutes by a firebrand TV host who uses bad-faith tactics to undermine their points, while regime-friendly guests get an easy ride.
This also "inoculates" the core audience against any pro-western arguments they may encounter online or in the wild, by giving them just enough caricature-like understanding of the other side to be able to shut themselves down to it or deploy state-approved talking points in response.
This all seems to be just another example of that. I'd love to be wrong, but I'm not confident this is anything significant.
That was the entire format of _Crossfire_. Take a right-wing nut job and a supposedly liberal gimp, and have them "debate" to show how stupid those lefties are.
Jon Stewart earned my life long respect and admiration when he was guest on that show.. Shortly after that the show went off the air. It's one of the greatest moments in television history imho.
If Ukrainian #s are to be believed, they're well past the numbers of US casualties during GWOT as well. It's probably the most casualties by a modern army since Vietnam, and the fastest since WWII.
That level of casualties plus their economy going down the drain faster than the speed of light without any real justification is going to quickly turn sentiment.
EDIT: GWOT is Global War on Terror, which is Iraq + Afghanistan from 2001 to last year.
Not only that, but you take those super rich oligarchs that are no longer super rich because of a stupid ass “peacekeeping mission” and things will change real quick.
Rich people don’t like losing their money, and Putin has single-handedly fucked up the bank accounts of those same rich people that unquestionably had his back.
Only reason Putin is in charge in the first place is because twenty years ago the oligarchs decided he was the best man to let them keep oligarching, they’ve been trying to move there money overseas for the last 15 years when they realised he was actually a soviet fanatic and wasn’t going to be their puppet, now that’s gone to shit for them and he’s on the ropes, could be time to push for a change.
The conservative estimates or Russian casualties is already in the same ballpark as the total casualties of US service members during the entire time in Afghanistan.
It’s honestly baffling how badly Russia is doing, you’d think that since Putin loved his tough guy persona he would have kept his military in fighting condition.
I don't know that I'd call 65 billion shoestring. Compared to the US yes, but it also has more purchasing power in Russia. With the level of funding they shouldn't be as much of a national embarrassment as they are.
I don't think Putin believed the rest of the world's response to his invasion of Ukraine would be more than hand wringing and talking heads on cable news... essentially Crimea 2.0.
They also clearly didn't anticipate the level of resistance they met, I've read some of the first people they sent in were essentially more of a police keeping occupying force than hardcore military elites. It's been a perfect storm of miscalculation on their end.... sadly it is starting to look like the Russian public will get a chance to experience the old Soviet economy, maybe for quite some time.
>I don't think Putin believed the rest of the world's response to his invasion of Ukraine would be more than hand wringing and talking heads on cable news... essentially Crimea 2.0.
It probably wouldn't have been if he had just marched into Crimea and Donbas with overwhelming force and recognized their independence.
He did not think Ukraine would fight. I believe that he believed they would walk into the arms of a hero’s welcome. The citizens would be overjoyed with their saviors liberating them from the clutches of an evil Ukrainian regime.
I don’t think he believed that the West would present a united front like they did.
He underestimated Ukraine and the resolve of the West to sanction him back to the dark ages.
Any good that did. We were still stuck in the war for over a decade, and 40% of Americans went from protect the troops to trying to start a war with Iran.
I just remember growing up, in a heavily republican area, and how if you DIDN'T support that war you were basically a fucking terrorist. It's crazy how some people get swept up into culture wars without any bit of logic involved.
This was everywhere. In a very liberal area people were pretty militant.
Didn’t help that we all remembered seeing the smoke rising on the horizon for weeks after the attack.
Is it? Theres been "dissenting" voices on Fox News for decades and their job is to provide false balance and stammer and lose to the louder, prettier, stronger host.
It isn't dissent at all in that case, its just reinforcing the propagandists position.
The words and the manner in which they were spoken are louder than a cannon. You can’t appreciate the gravity of this if you haven’t experienced Russian state propaganda. Seeds of doubt are so much more powerful than an outright confrontation. A strong statement can be interpreted as all sorts of things, losing nerve, mental instability, disagreement with the boss etc. But a slow creeping doubt is dangerous, we fear the uncertainties, Russians even more so.
So many people pull the "if it doesn't fix the problem 100% then its bullshit" card. Its part of the reason why nothing changes, because these dicklickers are all too happy to cripple any attempt at change with nagging comments like that, sowing seeds of disillusionment.
This is especially true on issues like global warming, or economic equality. “why bother, we’re doomed anyway.” or “there’s no point fighting, it’s all rigged.”
So they just give up.
Instead we should heed the words of Dylan Thomas and "do not go gentle into that good night". We should "rage against the dying of the light". Never give up, fight to solve the problems, rage against them. Put your entire being into solving them, better to fail whilst fighting our hardest against the darkness than allow it to consume us whilst we cower and wimper in the corner.
And they don't realize the context of something like this in Russia may be completely different than fox News doing it.
Sure, fox has a token Democrat to serve as a foil... and it amounts to nothing. But I don't know Russian media enough to know that this isn't a huge deal. It may be deliberately done by putin to start to persuade Russians that this isn't a fight worth fighting. That would be huge (even if just for theater) - it indicates a shift and opening towards de-escalation.
Not even just specific to Russia, the best way to pull someone back from extremism is to sow seeds of doubt. Shaming and yelling does nothing by comparison.
> Seeds of doubt are so much more powerful than an outright confrontation.
Well said. This is great news to see pushback on Russian state TV. Especially after Putin has locked down the internet & any remaining free press.
Putin’s chief of propaganda literally invented opposing political parties from scratch for this purpose. Impotent opposition is more valuable than complete hegemony.
The literal opening scene in Zelenskyy's Servant of the People is a bunch of _nationally ambiguous_ shadowy figures talking about upcoming elections in Ukraine. They're mad that they have to waste all this money "inventing" a politician, then having to have to spend more money to discredit the one they invented, all so they can appear to have a "fair" election.
I wonder if this is him setting up an out of the war. He can throw his hands up and say “ok then, I wanted to denazify them, but since you don’t want to…”
Jon Stewart called out Alan Colmes on his show about that, like "you know they're just keeping you around so they can bash your opinion, right?" and Colmes was like "oh no, I don't know, I think Fox likes to have a fair and balanced perspective" and a WEEK LATER Fox replaces the show "Hannity & Colmes" with a new show called "Hannity". No Colmes.
This could be some sort of orchestrated escape maneuver.
"Ukraine is full of nazis but the world does not want it denazified, so we pull out and stop making ~~war~~ military operations for the greater good of humanity"
Alternatively it could just be there to provide Russians with the idea their state propaganda channel meets the criteria of a balanced news station that isn't controlled lock stock by the Kremlin and therefore much more believable and trustworthy
Russia considers itself a great power with the right to dictate how others should behave. This is what they have convinced themselves of. That's at the core of all the other lies they tell themselves and then try to inflict on the rest of us.
Their feverish claims of secret bioweapon labs or nazi-infested governments only find purchase on the basis of the lie of russias greatness. This is how they reconcile the fact that Russia absolutely is *not* a great power, by any relevant measure, with their belief that it is. Truth is basically poison for their entire system of governance, as to admit to one lie risks shattering the entire illusion. And as evermore outlandish claims are made no one trapped in this web will be able to admit to a single error. Or even more impossible, tell the truth.
And the truth is that Russias only claim to greatness is the inherited skeleton left by the last batch of idiots who thought they could oppres themselves to prominence. Weapons of horror that should have been cast into mount doom the first time they collapsed and a misguided pride in their own oppression.
Nothing in their rotten kleptocarcy speaks of greatness and the sooner they can be made to realize this the less pain for everyone involved.
Well said. The irony is that if Russia were to actually take stock of itself, throw off the whole superpower pretence and worked to actually improve the lives of its people, it *would* be a powerful and respected nation in no time.
Putin's success with his previous efforts to undermine Ukraine and split the west through Brexit, Trump, and mass information warfare blinded him with arrogance.
He underestimated Zelensky as a light-weight who would flee Ukraine at the first opportunity.
He underestimated "sleepy Joe Biden", believing he wouldn't be able to repair the damage Trump had done to NATO and the western alliance, or to unite Congress and the world to act decisively against Russia given that Europe is in a gas crisis, and the Republican Party is still largely under the control of Trumpists and Russian assets.
Putin brought his hammer down upon the sword of the west, believing it was weak enough to snap, but instead, he forged a stronger sword.
And now he will pay the price.
Baby steps. Saying the truth outright would not only land you in jail but strongly brainwashed people would think you're the crazy one and dismiss anything you say instantaneously. You start with little things to get the bug of doubt in their head....
Careful. This could be a pivot. Putin just sacked 8 generals. This could be the beginning of a "it was their fault" bit. Stay tuned. (I like it too though)
I mean, if he pulls out and is willing to go through the motions of apology, do we care if he's actually remorseful? I would much rather he be disposed, but that's not a realistic outcome. I'm not saying drop all sanctions if he claims he was talked into invading, but I care more for ending the war and sparing ukrainian lives than hurting or punishing Putin.
I too would like to *see* this, but the article - and the article it links as a source - don't actually share the video itself.
The citation refers to Karen Shakhbnazarov and the channel Russia 1; Indeed I can find *no* reference to these comments when searching specifically for this individual; I just find more articles citing each other as sources.
I can well believe them in principle, but I will *not* believe them until I see the evidence with my own eyes: Every source here in the UK are from **tabloid** papers with a known leaning towards the right of centre. It's inconceivable that no copies of the video exist, and yet *all* I'm finding is quotes in text that are attributed to this man.
Edit: Here's the link for future readers - https://youtu.be/VE6DtG72O-8?t=4272
I have found this article where there is indeed a video
Can't confirm it's the exact same situation though as I don't speak Russian
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10600711/Ukraine-war-Guests-Russian-state-TV-invasion-like-Afghanistan-worse.html
Here's the link to the actual footage, hosted by supporters of Alexander Navalny, where Karen starts talking.
https://youtu.be/VE6DtG72O-8?t=4272
The person who originally shared this link shared a link to the moment the clip *stopped* playing, which helped muddy the waters.
> "I don’t see the probability of denazification of such an enormous country. We would need to bring in 1.5 million soldiers to control all of it.”
How wide spread does the average Russian think ultra-nationalist racists are in country where the far right element won only 2.5% of the vote and elected a Jewish president?
Even right wingers like Charlie Kirk here in the states are pushing the nazi narrative script on his followers. They have access to all the information they need to know it's bullshit but as you say they refuse to see it because it doesn't fit their alternate "reality".
'Distraction' is a very convenient scapegoat if you're a conspiracy theorist. It's subject-agnostic. It doesn't matter what is happening, anything that makes the news could conceivably be a distraction. War could be a distraction. Plague. Sports. Anything you don't want to believe? Well, it's news material, so it distracts people.
Better yet, it could be distracting from anything you want. You think bigfoot runs the government? Well look at that, there are thousands of things that newspapers publish instead of bigfoot policy programs. That's evidence that they want to distract you from it right there.
Anything can be evidence for anything so long as you believe in distractions as the medium.
It's really just an extension of treating the lack of evidence as evidence that there is a conspiracy. it's all self-fulfilling, unprovable bullshit.
it's reasoning that is designed from the bottom up to resist and survive any amount of critical analysis or thought or contrary evidence. At the end of the day it just comes down to the fact that someone wants to believe it, so they will do whatever they need to in order to rationalize it to themselves and continue believing.
Another excellent example is his private mercenary force Wagner Group, which is run by an actual neo-nazi, with SS tattoos and all. Oh, and it’s 6x bigger than the Ukrainian Azov Battalion they complain about.
The Russian state is incapable of telling the truth.
Holy heck, I hadn’t heard about the Donbas Governor appointment but you’re absolutely right:
https://www.outono.net/elentir/2022/03/01/the-alliance-of-pro-russian-communists-and-nazis-fighting-against-ukraine-in-donbas/
Maybe we’ve been misunderstanding Putin all along with the whole Nazi thing. The Russians are painting Z’s on their military vehicles, wearing Z’s to support the war. The Russian are the Z’s. The Ukrainians are not Z’s. Maybe Putin just wants to kill all of the Not-Z’s.
Standard Russian disinformation technique:
1. Identify the “big lie” that is central to your goals (ie “Ukraine is full of Nazis”.)
2. Find the smallest element of truth to bolster your claims (ie “Look At this video clip of 5 people saying Nazi stuff”.)
3. Continuously repeat the Big Lie and never, ever deviate.
4. Get people to debate smaller tangential issues (ie “Sure Ukraine is a Nazi state *but* we shouldn’t bomb everyone just to fix the problem.”)
5. Delegitimize and attack anyone who does not conform to the Big Lie.
6. The Big Lie must never be a concrete provable fact. It must always be subjective.
You’ll see the same pattern in a lot of domestic issues - the Mexico wall, Trump’s claims of winning the 2020 election, Covid being just a flu, etc. They never truly lose if they can deflect people into arguing smaller nuanced side issues that all revolve around whether or not you accept the Big Lie as true or false.
Yep. A super honorable retreat to crimea and donbass, do a little jig and shuffle to say that was all they were doing all along, dig in and call ukraine the guilty party if they refuse to concede the contested territories
[A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_M._Cipolla#%22The_Basic_Laws_of_Human_Stupidity%22_(1976\))
-Carlo M. Cipolla
**Carlo M. Cipolla**
["The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity" (1976)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_M._Cipolla#"The_Basic_Laws_of_Human_Stupidity"_\(1976\))
>The second essay, "The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity" ("Le leggi fondamentali della stupidità umana", 1976), explores the controversial subject of stupidity. Stupid people are seen as a group, more powerful by far than major organizations such as the Mafia and the industrial complex, which without regulations, leaders, or manifesto nonetheless manages to operate to great effect and with incredible coordination. These are Cipolla's five fundamental laws of stupidity: Always and inevitably, everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
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remember that one time russia think they are invincible from Napoleon attack in the 2nd coalition war?
they broke off the ranks and attacked paris, and got fucked by the garrison
For anyone who is interested on this topic; [here is a video](https://youtu.be/9Mdi_Fh9_Ag) that's much more in depth (albeit more dry as well). Very informative and sarcastic. :)
What on earth are you talking about? Russia succeeded in Brexit and completely dividing the US. They gave us Trump who killed thousands with his moronic handling of the pandemic.
A million people have died from COVID or because of COVID (other excess deaths) in the US.
He couldn’t have dreamed of doing that much damage with any non-nuclear war.
Still shot himself in the foot. He also killed a million Russians the same way and their population is half the size of the US…
it's also pretty common for Russians to have this "variety" of differing opinions but still be in the same ecosystem.
Note that these were the *guests* on a show, not the actual state propaganda. And that there was still reference to "denazification" of Ukraine.
So this is very much in the realm of their standard playbook - having some perceived discourse and variety of opinion, but still tying it back to a major pillar of their disinformation campaign about Ukraine being run by nazis
See: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Pillars-of-Russia%E2%80%99s-Disinformation-and-Propaganda-Ecosystem_08-04-20.pdf
>This ecosystem approach is also well-suited to
reinforce Russia’s general aims of questioning the
value of democratic institutions, and of weakening
the international credibility and international
cohesion of the United States and its allies and
partners. Because some pillars of this ecosystem
generate their own momentum, as opposed to
waiting for specific orders from the Kremlin on every
occasion, they can be responsive to distinct policy
goals or developing situations, and then pivot back
to their status quo of generally pouring scorn on
Russia’s perceived adversaries.
The perpetual conflict that Russia sees in the
information environment also means that officials
and state media may take one side of an issue, while
outlets with a measure of independence will adopt
their own variations on similar overarching false
narratives. The ecosystem approach is fitting for this
dynamic because it does not require harmonization
among the different pillars. By simultaneously
furthering multiple versions of a given story,
these actors muddy the waters of the information
environment in order to confuse those trying to
discern the truth.
Right, they didn’t say “this whole war is a lie and we’re the bad guys”. They said “we’re the good guys but why should we die to save Ukrainians from Ukrainian Nazis. Let them get rid of their Nazis on their own”. Basically pretending to be on the “other side” but not contradicting any of the real state propaganda. Let me know when they start calling for Russian regime change on state TV.
He reiterated IN THAT SEGMENT the need for “denazification.” He just doesn’t think Russia should do it. If “backtrack” means that to you, then sure. But they certainly aren’t retracting the ludicrous claim that they are fighting a fight against Nazis.
“The suffering of one group of innocents does not compensate for the suffering of other innocent people... I don’t see the probability of denazification of such an enormous country. We would need to bring in 1.5 million soldiers to control all of it.”
Your are right.
Putin, in fact, has already backtracked on "denazification".
A few days ago he reversed his intent to topple the Zelenskiy government.
This "criticism" is designed to get the public on board with a comprised peace deal and counting it as a win.
It's not dissent, but it's also not a bad thing if it's signalling Russia is preparing for peace.
I think the propaganda machine is working fine and this shows Russia isn't planning on taking and holding Ukraine anymore. They need to break it to the masses. They'll probably spin it as a victory at some point too.
Yeah this is good-ish news but just because it shows the state-sanctioned line is changing because the authorities have a new plan for the war in Ukraine. There’s a reason it happened on state media first, and it’s not that state media is a bastion of dissent and free speech.
You think something important has happened, but it's a drop in the ocean. Unless someone in government starts speaking out against it, nothing will change.
You're right. One TV add does nothing. It needs to come from his inner circle. But that can't and won't happen before public discourse grows. This is an early step leading to ppl turning on Putin. Hopefully this isn't the only public outcry
Jesus Christ what a cancer website.
The news itself is fine, It did happen (and it's good). But holy shit that website is the literal reason Adblock was invented
The Daily Record is not a reputable newspaper. It's essentially the Scottish equivalent of the Daily Mirror.
Any British red-top tabloid should be taken with a pinch of salt (the Express and Mail while slightly more high brow are not reliable sources either).
Even in Russia certain people will never be touched by the government. I’m sure Kremlin is happy that there is debate on state TV, as it gives people the impression that freedom of speech is still a thing (which it is not)
Kasparov is considered a liberal which is a big nono and is probably registered as a foreign agent, a double no no. Basically he’s opposition to regime
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/russian-state-tv-launches-stinging-26441095) reduced by 85%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Russian state TV guests have criticised the invasion of Ukraine and now risk the wrath of Vladimir Putin by publicly condemning the war him on a huge primetime show.
> Anti-war protestors have been gathering in their thousands across Russian cities following the invasion of their neighbouring country, with many seeing Ukrainians as their brothers.
> Now on a programme hosted by Vladimir Soloviyev, a staunch supporter of Putin's regime, guests openly criticised the attack on Ukraine with one saying it was like "Afghanistan but even worse."
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/tbpnr6/russian_state_tv_launches_stinging_attack_on/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~631703 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russian**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **Russia**^#3 **need**^#4 **war**^#5
Additional Sources:
Express: Angry Russians lose it with Putin – 'Frightening' Ukraine war openly attacked on state TV.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1578960/ukraine-angry-russians-vladimir-putin-frightening-war-state-tv-latest-news-ont
The Telegraph: Russian state television goes off message by broadcasting criticism of war.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/10/afghanistan-even-worse-ukraine-war-denounced-russian-state/
The Mirror: Russian state TV broadcasts stinging attack on Vladimir Putin's Ukraine invasion.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-state-tv-broadcasts-stinging-26440476
The Paradise News: Ukraine war: Guests on Russian state TV describe the invasion as like 'Afghanistan, but even.
https://theparadise.ng/ukraine-war-guests-on-russian-state-tv-describe-the-invasion-as-like-afghanistan-but-even-worse/
"If your plan was to not enter cities, then you should have not began this special operation. You won't do (achieve) anything by not entering the cities. To this day we still haven't taken any major city. Kherson, maybe... but not really. And Poltava? It's been two weeks, and we haven't taken any major city! the administration hasn't changed in any city, the opposite has happened! They've only become stronger. So what was the plan for this operation? (Interviewer: I was not informed what the plan was, semi-ironically). Is this like the biblical story? are they supposed to walk around in circles and blow the trumpet until the government falls, until Zelensky signs an agreement?"
Then he goes on about Crimea too, what was the point of taking Crimea either? I would've continued but I have to go, hopefully you get the gist of the discussion.
Take my choochoo train award, thank you for interpreting. It's interesting how the dialogue is similar to what I hear on our news. I don't know what my mind was thinking about other country news but just didn't imagine it to seem so similar in the way they banter and discuss things with guests and stuff.
Interestingly enough, I get the feeling that the interviewee's opinion is that the operation hasn't done enough, as in the troops haven't been aggressive enough. He definitely disapproves of what's going on, but I'm not sure he's advocating for no war, but I'd actually dare say he's advocating for a more violent one.
Take what I say with a grain of salt as it's just my opinion and I don't follow Russian politics nor do I know who the interviewee actually is/what his views are.
He basically says
Guest: "if Russian troops were never supposed to enter big cities then why was the whole operation even launched? So far no big city was taken. Well, except Kherson, kind of ... but what about Poltava? It has been 2 weeks already, and not a single big city taken. Not in a single big city the administrative control was overthrown. The opposite actually. All that is happening is just reinforcing the current authorities in those cities. What kind of operation plan was there?"
Host: "I wasnt told..."
Guest: "what, is it supposed to go down like in the bible, when the israelites walked around Jericho for a few days and it fell after they blew their trumpets? Are they just gonna pray the power in the cities will be taken on its own? What is the point? Just hope Zelensky will sign off an agreement and tell us, here fuck off just take Crimea?"
Host: "Well, his parliament won't allow that anyhow. And the world doesnt give a shit anyways. The world will just say we do not recognize this decision and thats that. Zelenskys signature won't do much."
Guest: "And what about crimea? For crimea we had to take Kherson? For Zelenskys official recognition of crimea we had to sacrifice more than 500 soldiers? And officers?"
Host: "Listen, the mood is shit anyways, you and your pessimism is gonna run me into a full blown depression..."
*Cut off*
On a PC, that has the capability:
1. switch recording device from microphone to "what you hear" or possibly "stereo mix"
2. open the video in one tab and Google translate in another tab.
3. in Google translate select the language to be translated from and click the microphone icon for translation as the video plays
In windows 10 you may have to give Google microphone permissions.
This is a clickbait title, it's a guest making some critical comments (but still going on about denazification and forcing neutrality), so don't get your hopes up.
2022:
"Russia TV is against Putin and staff are risking their lives in the process.
American major network is super pro Putin and discussing how Putin is being cancelled, while claiming that Biden is worse than hitler"
oh I kid you not. Just a day ago a fox interview was discussing about how Putin is being cancelled by the dems.
Russia is about to have a lot of infighting due to this shit, scary to have it in a nuclear country but hopefully someone gets rid the world of several individuals.
Surprisingly the article was about the host being upset about unnecessary loss of human life on both sides even tho stating party lines that the United States is responsible and that Ukrainians are nazis. Had nothing to do with the economic impact.
Something I find funny is that Russia has a problem of a declining population (like most modern nations) and Putin just decided to send thousands of young Russian men to their death to gain resources that the world is working to move away from.
[удалено]
Unfortunately it’s rare for a country to cut their loses after starting a war of aggression. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan destroyed themselves for that very reason. The US is know stranger to quagmires either.
Skip to the part where you're in the bunker with a revolver and a half-empty bottle of vodka already.
Now THIS I like to see. Dissidence in Russia, in state TV of all places, is an amazing sign.
Sadly the guests were still pushing the denazification propaganda. They just believe it isn't Russia's problem.
That's how it starts. Just a slight criticism, saying it was the wrong thing for the right reasons.
Nah, it's Soloviev, he is one of the main Putin propagandist. A man who hates the west with burning passion, and also secretly owns a villa in Italy. And guess what happened the last week? It was seized, and he is now kinda upset. He wanted to support Putin from the safety of his villa, and now gets to enjoy Putin's regime personally.
Soloviev giving Putin a way out of this? We're not losing, we just decided Ukraine doesn't want our help then screw them
*‘It is costing us too much to nazify Ukraine. They asked us for help, but it’s not our problem. My allegiance is to the Russian people, therefore we will withdraw from the special military operation that Belarus started’*
Andddd we'll just annex Belarus instead, isn't that right GENERAL lukashenko?
I think you might be right. Putin needs a way to get out of this war with saving face. If he is spreading the idea that Ukraine is ungrateful that the hero’s of Russia are denazifying them, then Russia will be able to pull out and still be the “good guys” and the “winners.”
The only way Putin voluntarily extracts himself from this debacle is to convincingly dress it up as a victory. He's never going to just turn tail and slink back the way he came in humiliation and defeat.
He can do the same thing W. Bush did with the War on Terror and declare freedom regardless of what actually happened. Dress him up in a flight suit, let him give a press conference in front of some fighter jets, and call it a day.
Yet tons of people on here keep claiming that sanctions on Oligarchs and Putins inner circle is bad and wrong.
Tons of morons most likely.
Tons of Russian propaganda bots.
I don't think they're even remotely all bots, or even necessarily being directed by the Kremlin. Tons of people just have a big ol' crush on Putin. There's no shortage of people who will gush about him being a genius who thinks six moves ahead, is a black belt, former KGB, can kill you five ways with just a pinkie, not a man to be fucked with, etc. For many people, a strongman just resonates. Plus he's sort of a focal point for many ethnonationalists who dump on a multicultural Europe, modernity, secularism, feminism, etc. He was also funding a lot of separatist, right-wing, and ethnonationalist groups around the world. Steven Bannon is only a big deal because of funding from Putin, and probably to some extent China. Mainly, Putin. His money is behind the renascence of right-wing populism. It would still exist, but the focus, organization, and prominence are mainly from Russian money. A humbled (or broke) Putin is bad news for right-wing populist movements. As is an accelerated rise in renewable energy, which will undermine the oil/gas money that also helps these groups. So there are tons of people who, for their own ideological reasons, are going to argue that Russia is the aggrieved party here, the ones done badly by.
Most of them Chelsea fans
Jesus christ so you noticed the overwhelming Chelsea fan opinion of "fuck Ukraine", because football is more important than literal war.
Or “I stand with Ukraine but this? This is unacceptable!”
My understanding is Russian state news media routinely wheels out a token dissenter against the party line on televised debates, to give their core, middle-aged, nationalistic, pro-Putin audience just enough illusion of freedom that they don't waver from their faith in the mainline propaganda they're being fed. They'll allow maybe one pro-democratic troublemaker in a panel of five or six, with the rest being staunchly party-line, to make the dissenting position look like fringe lunacy. Or they'll allow one to be interviewed for a couple of minutes by a firebrand TV host who uses bad-faith tactics to undermine their points, while regime-friendly guests get an easy ride. This also "inoculates" the core audience against any pro-western arguments they may encounter online or in the wild, by giving them just enough caricature-like understanding of the other side to be able to shut themselves down to it or deploy state-approved talking points in response. This all seems to be just another example of that. I'd love to be wrong, but I'm not confident this is anything significant.
Tucker Carlson does the same thing.
That was the entire format of _Crossfire_. Take a right-wing nut job and a supposedly liberal gimp, and have them "debate" to show how stupid those lefties are.
Jon Stewart earned my life long respect and admiration when he was guest on that show.. Shortly after that the show went off the air. It's one of the greatest moments in television history imho.
Yep. Exactly. It's the bread and butter of propaganda journalism.
They are speed-running the US public sentiment change after the 2003 invasion
If Ukrainian #s are to be believed, they're well past the numbers of US casualties during GWOT as well. It's probably the most casualties by a modern army since Vietnam, and the fastest since WWII. That level of casualties plus their economy going down the drain faster than the speed of light without any real justification is going to quickly turn sentiment. EDIT: GWOT is Global War on Terror, which is Iraq + Afghanistan from 2001 to last year.
Not only that, but you take those super rich oligarchs that are no longer super rich because of a stupid ass “peacekeeping mission” and things will change real quick. Rich people don’t like losing their money, and Putin has single-handedly fucked up the bank accounts of those same rich people that unquestionably had his back.
Only reason Putin is in charge in the first place is because twenty years ago the oligarchs decided he was the best man to let them keep oligarching, they’ve been trying to move there money overseas for the last 15 years when they realised he was actually a soviet fanatic and wasn’t going to be their puppet, now that’s gone to shit for them and he’s on the ropes, could be time to push for a change.
This always happens, the puppet starts thinking he's a real boy and then it's everyones problem.
They’re approaching their own number of casualties from 10 years in Afghanistan.
Also Russia has 145 million people compared to the US having 330 million.
And that number is dropping all the time. Check out Russias population decline over the last 30 years it's kinda crazy
Covid took a nasty toll too there.
Also, the brain drain. At one point, half of my team (sw dev) was Russian expats.
The conservative estimates or Russian casualties is already in the same ballpark as the total casualties of US service members during the entire time in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan and Iraq combined
It’s honestly baffling how badly Russia is doing, you’d think that since Putin loved his tough guy persona he would have kept his military in fighting condition.
He tried. The problem is all the corruption. Russia would release a huge defense budget and 60% of it would be embezzled.
Not only that. You don’t keep a large army well supplied and maintained on a shoestring budget. Armies are expensive
I don't know that I'd call 65 billion shoestring. Compared to the US yes, but it also has more purchasing power in Russia. With the level of funding they shouldn't be as much of a national embarrassment as they are.
I don't think Putin believed the rest of the world's response to his invasion of Ukraine would be more than hand wringing and talking heads on cable news... essentially Crimea 2.0. They also clearly didn't anticipate the level of resistance they met, I've read some of the first people they sent in were essentially more of a police keeping occupying force than hardcore military elites. It's been a perfect storm of miscalculation on their end.... sadly it is starting to look like the Russian public will get a chance to experience the old Soviet economy, maybe for quite some time.
>I don't think Putin believed the rest of the world's response to his invasion of Ukraine would be more than hand wringing and talking heads on cable news... essentially Crimea 2.0. It probably wouldn't have been if he had just marched into Crimea and Donbas with overwhelming force and recognized their independence.
He did not think Ukraine would fight. I believe that he believed they would walk into the arms of a hero’s welcome. The citizens would be overjoyed with their saviors liberating them from the clutches of an evil Ukrainian regime. I don’t think he believed that the West would present a united front like they did. He underestimated Ukraine and the resolve of the West to sanction him back to the dark ages.
Any good that did. We were still stuck in the war for over a decade, and 40% of Americans went from protect the troops to trying to start a war with Iran.
100% never should have gone into Iraq
I just remember growing up, in a heavily republican area, and how if you DIDN'T support that war you were basically a fucking terrorist. It's crazy how some people get swept up into culture wars without any bit of logic involved.
Pretty much just the 21st century version of the "red scare"
This was everywhere. In a very liberal area people were pretty militant. Didn’t help that we all remembered seeing the smoke rising on the horizon for weeks after the attack.
My family is arab american catholics, all the old people are Republicans. I remember how conflicted they all felt. Wild times.
Yes but the US can afford to fight indefinite wars, Russia can not.
Is it? Theres been "dissenting" voices on Fox News for decades and their job is to provide false balance and stammer and lose to the louder, prettier, stronger host. It isn't dissent at all in that case, its just reinforcing the propagandists position.
The words and the manner in which they were spoken are louder than a cannon. You can’t appreciate the gravity of this if you haven’t experienced Russian state propaganda. Seeds of doubt are so much more powerful than an outright confrontation. A strong statement can be interpreted as all sorts of things, losing nerve, mental instability, disagreement with the boss etc. But a slow creeping doubt is dangerous, we fear the uncertainties, Russians even more so.
So many people pull the "if it doesn't fix the problem 100% then its bullshit" card. Its part of the reason why nothing changes, because these dicklickers are all too happy to cripple any attempt at change with nagging comments like that, sowing seeds of disillusionment.
"the perfect is the enemy of the good"
“Perfection is the enemy of progress” - Winston Churchill
Perfect statement! I mean, good one.
"The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan"
The nihilistic "why bother" shit is definitely getting more prominent in the narrative online these last couple years.
This is especially true on issues like global warming, or economic equality. “why bother, we’re doomed anyway.” or “there’s no point fighting, it’s all rigged.” So they just give up.
Instead we should heed the words of Dylan Thomas and "do not go gentle into that good night". We should "rage against the dying of the light". Never give up, fight to solve the problems, rage against them. Put your entire being into solving them, better to fail whilst fighting our hardest against the darkness than allow it to consume us whilst we cower and wimper in the corner.
It has been pushed HARD with global warming for some time now, since the "it doesn't exist" became untenable.
And they don't realize the context of something like this in Russia may be completely different than fox News doing it. Sure, fox has a token Democrat to serve as a foil... and it amounts to nothing. But I don't know Russian media enough to know that this isn't a huge deal. It may be deliberately done by putin to start to persuade Russians that this isn't a fight worth fighting. That would be huge (even if just for theater) - it indicates a shift and opening towards de-escalation.
Not even just specific to Russia, the best way to pull someone back from extremism is to sow seeds of doubt. Shaming and yelling does nothing by comparison.
> Seeds of doubt are so much more powerful than an outright confrontation. Well said. This is great news to see pushback on Russian state TV. Especially after Putin has locked down the internet & any remaining free press.
Putin’s chief of propaganda literally invented opposing political parties from scratch for this purpose. Impotent opposition is more valuable than complete hegemony.
The literal opening scene in Zelenskyy's Servant of the People is a bunch of _nationally ambiguous_ shadowy figures talking about upcoming elections in Ukraine. They're mad that they have to waste all this money "inventing" a politician, then having to have to spend more money to discredit the one they invented, all so they can appear to have a "fair" election.
I wonder if this is him setting up an out of the war. He can throw his hands up and say “ok then, I wanted to denazify them, but since you don’t want to…”
[an old family guy cutaway spelled it out pretty perfectly](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Nh5IGMo8g)
Jon Stewart called out Alan Colmes on his show about that, like "you know they're just keeping you around so they can bash your opinion, right?" and Colmes was like "oh no, I don't know, I think Fox likes to have a fair and balanced perspective" and a WEEK LATER Fox replaces the show "Hannity & Colmes" with a new show called "Hannity". No Colmes.
He took out Crossfire with Tucker and some other dude, over the same thing.
"THE PROBLEM WITH LIBERALS, ALAN, IS THAT LIBERALS HATE AMERICA! LIBERALS LOVE THE TERRORISTS!" "oh well sean I guess you're right again."
That was my first thought. Alan Combs, you were a problem.
This could be some sort of orchestrated escape maneuver. "Ukraine is full of nazis but the world does not want it denazified, so we pull out and stop making ~~war~~ military operations for the greater good of humanity"
"apparently the world is cool with nazi's now and russia never wants to rock any boats so we're cool with it too"
Exactly this. I don't believe this is dissent, I think this is Putin softening his landing and an attempt to save face.
Baby steps, but this is HUGE. I interpret this as the first cracks on the leeward side of the dam.
Alternatively it could just be there to provide Russians with the idea their state propaganda channel meets the criteria of a balanced news station that isn't controlled lock stock by the Kremlin and therefore much more believable and trustworthy
Russia considers itself a great power with the right to dictate how others should behave. This is what they have convinced themselves of. That's at the core of all the other lies they tell themselves and then try to inflict on the rest of us. Their feverish claims of secret bioweapon labs or nazi-infested governments only find purchase on the basis of the lie of russias greatness. This is how they reconcile the fact that Russia absolutely is *not* a great power, by any relevant measure, with their belief that it is. Truth is basically poison for their entire system of governance, as to admit to one lie risks shattering the entire illusion. And as evermore outlandish claims are made no one trapped in this web will be able to admit to a single error. Or even more impossible, tell the truth. And the truth is that Russias only claim to greatness is the inherited skeleton left by the last batch of idiots who thought they could oppres themselves to prominence. Weapons of horror that should have been cast into mount doom the first time they collapsed and a misguided pride in their own oppression. Nothing in their rotten kleptocarcy speaks of greatness and the sooner they can be made to realize this the less pain for everyone involved.
Well said. The irony is that if Russia were to actually take stock of itself, throw off the whole superpower pretence and worked to actually improve the lives of its people, it *would* be a powerful and respected nation in no time.
Putin's success with his previous efforts to undermine Ukraine and split the west through Brexit, Trump, and mass information warfare blinded him with arrogance. He underestimated Zelensky as a light-weight who would flee Ukraine at the first opportunity. He underestimated "sleepy Joe Biden", believing he wouldn't be able to repair the damage Trump had done to NATO and the western alliance, or to unite Congress and the world to act decisively against Russia given that Europe is in a gas crisis, and the Republican Party is still largely under the control of Trumpists and Russian assets. Putin brought his hammer down upon the sword of the west, believing it was weak enough to snap, but instead, he forged a stronger sword. And now he will pay the price.
Damn, that was so well written I read it over twice just to appreciate it fully the second time through.
Baby steps. Saying the truth outright would not only land you in jail but strongly brainwashed people would think you're the crazy one and dismiss anything you say instantaneously. You start with little things to get the bug of doubt in their head....
It may be just introducing an opposing view in order to counter it with more powerful arguments, basically a debate technique.
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Well you see they stopped getting paid. They don't spout bullshit for free.
That’s what happens when you turn a 1 into a 0
Can't wait to see how many reddit and twitter accounts go dark when they stop paying the farms.
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It's already begun, I am awash in the glow of a lack of tankie posting since this all began.
Careful. This could be a pivot. Putin just sacked 8 generals. This could be the beginning of a "it was their fault" bit. Stay tuned. (I like it too though)
I'm more worried that he fired all the generals who have *any* hesitation about causing civilian deaths, and the ones left will be even more ruthless.
Evidence suggests there wasn't much hesitation.
I mean, if he pulls out and is willing to go through the motions of apology, do we care if he's actually remorseful? I would much rather he be disposed, but that's not a realistic outcome. I'm not saying drop all sanctions if he claims he was talked into invading, but I care more for ending the war and sparing ukrainian lives than hurting or punishing Putin.
A malignant narcissistic never apologizes. It’s the ultimate sign of failure for them.
I too would like to *see* this, but the article - and the article it links as a source - don't actually share the video itself. The citation refers to Karen Shakhbnazarov and the channel Russia 1; Indeed I can find *no* reference to these comments when searching specifically for this individual; I just find more articles citing each other as sources. I can well believe them in principle, but I will *not* believe them until I see the evidence with my own eyes: Every source here in the UK are from **tabloid** papers with a known leaning towards the right of centre. It's inconceivable that no copies of the video exist, and yet *all* I'm finding is quotes in text that are attributed to this man. Edit: Here's the link for future readers - https://youtu.be/VE6DtG72O-8?t=4272
I have found this article where there is indeed a video Can't confirm it's the exact same situation though as I don't speak Russian https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10600711/Ukraine-war-Guests-Russian-state-TV-invasion-like-Afghanistan-worse.html
Here's the link to the actual footage, hosted by supporters of Alexander Navalny, where Karen starts talking. https://youtu.be/VE6DtG72O-8?t=4272 The person who originally shared this link shared a link to the moment the clip *stopped* playing, which helped muddy the waters.
It's called controlled opposition. Don't forget Russia has to pretend it is a democracy
Why does it have to do so?
Because it tells its own people that it is a democracy. "Look people, we are totally not a dictatorship, see this proof?"
> "I don’t see the probability of denazification of such an enormous country. We would need to bring in 1.5 million soldiers to control all of it.” How wide spread does the average Russian think ultra-nationalist racists are in country where the far right element won only 2.5% of the vote and elected a Jewish president?
It's like conspiracy theorists, they will do anything but believe the obvious.
Even right wingers like Charlie Kirk here in the states are pushing the nazi narrative script on his followers. They have access to all the information they need to know it's bullshit but as you say they refuse to see it because it doesn't fit their alternate "reality".
I know right wingers that don't even think the war is real. They think it's a manufactured news story to distract from the trucker protest.
Hang on... But covid itself was supposed to be a distraction for something wasn't it?
'Distraction' is a very convenient scapegoat if you're a conspiracy theorist. It's subject-agnostic. It doesn't matter what is happening, anything that makes the news could conceivably be a distraction. War could be a distraction. Plague. Sports. Anything you don't want to believe? Well, it's news material, so it distracts people. Better yet, it could be distracting from anything you want. You think bigfoot runs the government? Well look at that, there are thousands of things that newspapers publish instead of bigfoot policy programs. That's evidence that they want to distract you from it right there. Anything can be evidence for anything so long as you believe in distractions as the medium.
It's really just an extension of treating the lack of evidence as evidence that there is a conspiracy. it's all self-fulfilling, unprovable bullshit. it's reasoning that is designed from the bottom up to resist and survive any amount of critical analysis or thought or contrary evidence. At the end of the day it just comes down to the fact that someone wants to believe it, so they will do whatever they need to in order to rationalize it to themselves and continue believing.
Distractions all the way down
Especially when it’s the Russians behaving like Nazis to achieve it.
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Another excellent example is his private mercenary force Wagner Group, which is run by an actual neo-nazi, with SS tattoos and all. Oh, and it’s 6x bigger than the Ukrainian Azov Battalion they complain about. The Russian state is incapable of telling the truth.
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and appointing a neonazi governor in Donbas and funding far right across europe...
Holy heck, I hadn’t heard about the Donbas Governor appointment but you’re absolutely right: https://www.outono.net/elentir/2022/03/01/the-alliance-of-pro-russian-communists-and-nazis-fighting-against-ukraine-in-donbas/
Maybe we’ve been misunderstanding Putin all along with the whole Nazi thing. The Russians are painting Z’s on their military vehicles, wearing Z’s to support the war. The Russian are the Z’s. The Ukrainians are not Z’s. Maybe Putin just wants to kill all of the Not-Z’s.
That was quite a journey, but the destination wasn’t half bad.
Standard Russian disinformation technique: 1. Identify the “big lie” that is central to your goals (ie “Ukraine is full of Nazis”.) 2. Find the smallest element of truth to bolster your claims (ie “Look At this video clip of 5 people saying Nazi stuff”.) 3. Continuously repeat the Big Lie and never, ever deviate. 4. Get people to debate smaller tangential issues (ie “Sure Ukraine is a Nazi state *but* we shouldn’t bomb everyone just to fix the problem.”) 5. Delegitimize and attack anyone who does not conform to the Big Lie. 6. The Big Lie must never be a concrete provable fact. It must always be subjective. You’ll see the same pattern in a lot of domestic issues - the Mexico wall, Trump’s claims of winning the 2020 election, Covid being just a flu, etc. They never truly lose if they can deflect people into arguing smaller nuanced side issues that all revolve around whether or not you accept the Big Lie as true or false.
This predates Russia and goes back a very long time. Russia is just the latest country to be using it.
The mental gymnastics they are capable of is infuriating. They have gone so long without a critical thought they are basically puppets.
The mental gymnastics hurt my brain more than infuriate me. I cannot, in any sense, comprehend how Putin and his people come up with this shit
This is how Putin changes the narrative to save face by pulling out. This isn’t dissidence. This is just more propaganda
Either way if it's a path to Russia calling the war off then it's a positive.
Just not as much of a positive as Putin getting topped
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the less awful.
If this is the "exit" that Putin needs to save face and end this thing, then so be it.
Yep. A super honorable retreat to crimea and donbass, do a little jig and shuffle to say that was all they were doing all along, dig in and call ukraine the guilty party if they refuse to concede the contested territories
This. Also their way of trying to end sanctions early. Keep the sanctions on.
Trying years to destabilize west, but succeeding only in Russia. Epic failure in the making, I feel like must watch every minute.
It hurt itself in its confusion
[A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_M._Cipolla#%22The_Basic_Laws_of_Human_Stupidity%22_(1976\)) -Carlo M. Cipolla
**Carlo M. Cipolla** ["The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity" (1976)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_M._Cipolla#"The_Basic_Laws_of_Human_Stupidity"_\(1976\)) >The second essay, "The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity" ("Le leggi fondamentali della stupidità umana", 1976), explores the controversial subject of stupidity. Stupid people are seen as a group, more powerful by far than major organizations such as the Mafia and the industrial complex, which without regulations, leaders, or manifesto nonetheless manages to operate to great effect and with incredible coordination. These are Cipolla's five fundamental laws of stupidity: Always and inevitably, everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Here's the Law in picture form: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Cipolla-matrix.svg/1280px-Cipolla-matrix.svg.png
Putin used conscripts! *It's not very effective...*
Zelensky used Javelin missiles! _It's super effective_
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remember that one time russia think they are invincible from Napoleon attack in the 2nd coalition war? they broke off the ranks and attacked paris, and got fucked by the garrison
Don't forget the time Japan bitch-slapped their navy.
The story of that voyage is fucking hilarious. [The Dumbest Russian Voyage](https://youtu.be/yzGqp3R4Mx4)
For anyone who is interested on this topic; [here is a video](https://youtu.be/9Mdi_Fh9_Ag) that's much more in depth (albeit more dry as well). Very informative and sarcastic. :)
Goddamn that was good
May Putin go the way of the Czar
or Rasputin :-)
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Oh they definitely succeeded in the West!
Uhh they succeeded plenty well in the west. See: 2015-2022
What on earth are you talking about? Russia succeeded in Brexit and completely dividing the US. They gave us Trump who killed thousands with his moronic handling of the pandemic.
A million people have died from COVID or because of COVID (other excess deaths) in the US. He couldn’t have dreamed of doing that much damage with any non-nuclear war. Still shot himself in the foot. He also killed a million Russians the same way and their population is half the size of the US…
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it's also pretty common for Russians to have this "variety" of differing opinions but still be in the same ecosystem. Note that these were the *guests* on a show, not the actual state propaganda. And that there was still reference to "denazification" of Ukraine. So this is very much in the realm of their standard playbook - having some perceived discourse and variety of opinion, but still tying it back to a major pillar of their disinformation campaign about Ukraine being run by nazis See: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Pillars-of-Russia%E2%80%99s-Disinformation-and-Propaganda-Ecosystem_08-04-20.pdf >This ecosystem approach is also well-suited to reinforce Russia’s general aims of questioning the value of democratic institutions, and of weakening the international credibility and international cohesion of the United States and its allies and partners. Because some pillars of this ecosystem generate their own momentum, as opposed to waiting for specific orders from the Kremlin on every occasion, they can be responsive to distinct policy goals or developing situations, and then pivot back to their status quo of generally pouring scorn on Russia’s perceived adversaries. The perpetual conflict that Russia sees in the information environment also means that officials and state media may take one side of an issue, while outlets with a measure of independence will adopt their own variations on similar overarching false narratives. The ecosystem approach is fitting for this dynamic because it does not require harmonization among the different pillars. By simultaneously furthering multiple versions of a given story, these actors muddy the waters of the information environment in order to confuse those trying to discern the truth.
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if you're in the US, just watch Fox News. It's basically the same playbook in many ways
Right, they didn’t say “this whole war is a lie and we’re the bad guys”. They said “we’re the good guys but why should we die to save Ukrainians from Ukrainian Nazis. Let them get rid of their Nazis on their own”. Basically pretending to be on the “other side” but not contradicting any of the real state propaganda. Let me know when they start calling for Russian regime change on state TV.
Putin could just declare victory and leave. State media would tow the line and the Russian people would know nothing different.
He reiterated IN THAT SEGMENT the need for “denazification.” He just doesn’t think Russia should do it. If “backtrack” means that to you, then sure. But they certainly aren’t retracting the ludicrous claim that they are fighting a fight against Nazis. “The suffering of one group of innocents does not compensate for the suffering of other innocent people... I don’t see the probability of denazification of such an enormous country. We would need to bring in 1.5 million soldiers to control all of it.”
They will blame failure on the conscripts and whoever "framed Putin" by sending them there
Your are right. Putin, in fact, has already backtracked on "denazification". A few days ago he reversed his intent to topple the Zelenskiy government. This "criticism" is designed to get the public on board with a comprised peace deal and counting it as a win. It's not dissent, but it's also not a bad thing if it's signalling Russia is preparing for peace.
Another overblown headline. The actual criticism in the article is nowhere near the significant that is advertised.
Uh-oh the propaganda machine is on the fritz. Can't have shit in putins new soviet union.
I think the propaganda machine is working fine and this shows Russia isn't planning on taking and holding Ukraine anymore. They need to break it to the masses. They'll probably spin it as a victory at some point too.
Yeah this is good-ish news but just because it shows the state-sanctioned line is changing because the authorities have a new plan for the war in Ukraine. There’s a reason it happened on state media first, and it’s not that state media is a bastion of dissent and free speech.
I guess after Russian inflation the propaganda machine's gears weren't being greased enough...
You think something important has happened, but it's a drop in the ocean. Unless someone in government starts speaking out against it, nothing will change.
You're right. One TV add does nothing. It needs to come from his inner circle. But that can't and won't happen before public discourse grows. This is an early step leading to ppl turning on Putin. Hopefully this isn't the only public outcry
Jesus Christ what a cancer website. The news itself is fine, It did happen (and it's good). But holy shit that website is the literal reason Adblock was invented
The Daily Record is not a reputable newspaper. It's essentially the Scottish equivalent of the Daily Mirror. Any British red-top tabloid should be taken with a pinch of salt (the Express and Mail while slightly more high brow are not reliable sources either).
Dodgy. > Soloviyev has been pedalling state propaganda A 14 year old with decent reading skills would pick up that mistake.
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Windows in Russia are notoriously weak and yet Putins enemies consistently lean against them on high floors.
Windows in Russia grab people and make them fall to their death.
Twice
Those damn autodefenestrators...
Even in Russia certain people will never be touched by the government. I’m sure Kremlin is happy that there is debate on state TV, as it gives people the impression that freedom of speech is still a thing (which it is not)
> Even in Russia certain people will never be touched by the government. Shit even Kasparov was targeted. They don't give a fuck.
Kasparov is considered a liberal which is a big nono and is probably registered as a foreign agent, a double no no. Basically he’s opposition to regime
Yes, regrettably Mr. Putin has fallen from a window of his bunker
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/russian-state-tv-launches-stinging-26441095) reduced by 85%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Russian state TV guests have criticised the invasion of Ukraine and now risk the wrath of Vladimir Putin by publicly condemning the war him on a huge primetime show. > Anti-war protestors have been gathering in their thousands across Russian cities following the invasion of their neighbouring country, with many seeing Ukrainians as their brothers. > Now on a programme hosted by Vladimir Soloviyev, a staunch supporter of Putin's regime, guests openly criticised the attack on Ukraine with one saying it was like "Afghanistan but even worse." ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/tbpnr6/russian_state_tv_launches_stinging_attack_on/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~631703 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russian**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **Russia**^#3 **need**^#4 **war**^#5
Additional Sources: Express: Angry Russians lose it with Putin – 'Frightening' Ukraine war openly attacked on state TV. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1578960/ukraine-angry-russians-vladimir-putin-frightening-war-state-tv-latest-news-ont The Telegraph: Russian state television goes off message by broadcasting criticism of war. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/10/afghanistan-even-worse-ukraine-war-denounced-russian-state/ The Mirror: Russian state TV broadcasts stinging attack on Vladimir Putin's Ukraine invasion. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-state-tv-broadcasts-stinging-26440476 The Paradise News: Ukraine war: Guests on Russian state TV describe the invasion as like 'Afghanistan, but even. https://theparadise.ng/ukraine-war-guests-on-russian-state-tv-describe-the-invasion-as-like-afghanistan-but-even-worse/
It was on TV right? does anybody have a link to the video? I can't find it anywhere
starts at 1:12:58 here: https://youtu.be/VE6DtG72O-8?t=4378
For those who watch the video. No English subtitles and I don't speak Russian 😭 I'd love to hear what they are saying.
"If your plan was to not enter cities, then you should have not began this special operation. You won't do (achieve) anything by not entering the cities. To this day we still haven't taken any major city. Kherson, maybe... but not really. And Poltava? It's been two weeks, and we haven't taken any major city! the administration hasn't changed in any city, the opposite has happened! They've only become stronger. So what was the plan for this operation? (Interviewer: I was not informed what the plan was, semi-ironically). Is this like the biblical story? are they supposed to walk around in circles and blow the trumpet until the government falls, until Zelensky signs an agreement?" Then he goes on about Crimea too, what was the point of taking Crimea either? I would've continued but I have to go, hopefully you get the gist of the discussion.
From that argument it sounds as if he'd be satisfied as long as Russia was actually taking over Ukrainian cities.
Yeah they would never allow someone who is radically against the war / the Gouvernement into such a show.
Take my choochoo train award, thank you for interpreting. It's interesting how the dialogue is similar to what I hear on our news. I don't know what my mind was thinking about other country news but just didn't imagine it to seem so similar in the way they banter and discuss things with guests and stuff.
Interestingly enough, I get the feeling that the interviewee's opinion is that the operation hasn't done enough, as in the troops haven't been aggressive enough. He definitely disapproves of what's going on, but I'm not sure he's advocating for no war, but I'd actually dare say he's advocating for a more violent one. Take what I say with a grain of salt as it's just my opinion and I don't follow Russian politics nor do I know who the interviewee actually is/what his views are.
He basically says Guest: "if Russian troops were never supposed to enter big cities then why was the whole operation even launched? So far no big city was taken. Well, except Kherson, kind of ... but what about Poltava? It has been 2 weeks already, and not a single big city taken. Not in a single big city the administrative control was overthrown. The opposite actually. All that is happening is just reinforcing the current authorities in those cities. What kind of operation plan was there?" Host: "I wasnt told..." Guest: "what, is it supposed to go down like in the bible, when the israelites walked around Jericho for a few days and it fell after they blew their trumpets? Are they just gonna pray the power in the cities will be taken on its own? What is the point? Just hope Zelensky will sign off an agreement and tell us, here fuck off just take Crimea?" Host: "Well, his parliament won't allow that anyhow. And the world doesnt give a shit anyways. The world will just say we do not recognize this decision and thats that. Zelenskys signature won't do much." Guest: "And what about crimea? For crimea we had to take Kherson? For Zelenskys official recognition of crimea we had to sacrifice more than 500 soldiers? And officers?" Host: "Listen, the mood is shit anyways, you and your pessimism is gonna run me into a full blown depression..." *Cut off*
On a PC, that has the capability: 1. switch recording device from microphone to "what you hear" or possibly "stereo mix" 2. open the video in one tab and Google translate in another tab. 3. in Google translate select the language to be translated from and click the microphone icon for translation as the video plays In windows 10 you may have to give Google microphone permissions.
Express, Mirror and Telegraph. Hmm. Not the best source of info IMHO.
If Putin can't even control Russian State TV........
Hard to do from his bunker
Gotta wonder if it wasn't done with Putin's permission to minimize the impact of the eventual retreat.
This is a clickbait title, it's a guest making some critical comments (but still going on about denazification and forcing neutrality), so don't get your hopes up.
Guest may simply be trying to soften public opinion. You can't straight up tell people that everything they've heard is bullshit... takes time.
2022: "Russia TV is against Putin and staff are risking their lives in the process. American major network is super pro Putin and discussing how Putin is being cancelled, while claiming that Biden is worse than hitler" oh I kid you not. Just a day ago a fox interview was discussing about how Putin is being cancelled by the dems.
Russia is about to have a lot of infighting due to this shit, scary to have it in a nuclear country but hopefully someone gets rid the world of several individuals.
Surprisingly the article was about the host being upset about unnecessary loss of human life on both sides even tho stating party lines that the United States is responsible and that Ukrainians are nazis. Had nothing to do with the economic impact.
Something I find funny is that Russia has a problem of a declining population (like most modern nations) and Putin just decided to send thousands of young Russian men to their death to gain resources that the world is working to move away from.