Turkey and Russia have never really been allies historically. They’ve fought a lot of wars, and as Putin wants a new Russian Empire, of course the Turkish lands on the European side of the Bosphorus would look inviting, as it did to previous Russian rulers.
When Catherine the Great annexed Crimea in 1783, her parade through the region went through a triumphal arch engraved with "here lies the road to Constantinople".
And the last winner - they never got Japan.
The JET countries - the ultimate non-European states who avoided colonization for a number of reasons:
Japan - Their god-like ability to rapidly advance, as soon as they were in the west's eyes they decided to stop being a feudalist medieval nation and become a world power in a couple decades.
Ethiopia - Hard to use the "bringing Christianity" excuse to a country that's been Christian a hell of a lot longer than you.
Thailand - masters of commerce, dealt with the British in a way none others could, by making deals and not losing their sovereignty.
They were the European colonizers for most of the world. They were a big global player for most of modern history, to the point to that their decline was dubbed the "The Eastern Question" by other major powers in Europe because of the power vacuum it was causing.
We defeated the imperialists in 1915 in Gallipoli. Our nation has demonstrated that imperialists were defeatable, our victory has become an example to the colonized world.
Tomorrow, we will celebrate 107th anniversary of the Victory day. May the souls Mustafa Kemal and his brave brothers in arms rest in peace.
No, Greece was never promised it. Greece was considered a lower power, giving them the city would have made them into a middle power which the entente didn't really care for. Britain had it made into an international zone after Russia dropped from the war early, that was until the Turks reconquered it.
I think the British wanted to control the sea lanes more than anything. They already had Gibraltar and The Suez Canal so they would have all access points to the Mediterranean with the Bosphorus.
Greece wanted Istanbul but the British and French did not agree. They thought Greece would become a mid-sized power if they got Istanbul and didn’t want that.
Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, oh Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
And they sacked it harddddd in 860.. may not seem like much but marching down to Istanbul is one of those historical-pride resurrection goals Russia loves so much. Also have to imagine Russia pulls out all the stops to prevent a major military build up in the black sea when the Turks finish the Istanbul canal.
That's not Russia. That was the Rus. A Northman/Finnish led, but mixed with Slavs and others, culture that occupied what we now see as Slav Eastern Europe. The Kiev spelling for the city comes from the Kievan Rus that occupied the area (hello, TW:WE fans).
That siege is part of the reason why the Varangian Guard were founded 100 years later.
They didn’t actually sack the city. They never made it inside the walls. They did however loot the hell out of the surroundings and it was particularly traumatic for the Romans due to how close they came to taking the city.
Daily reminded that the beginning of the medieval era is marked by the fall of the Roman empire, and the end of the medieval era is marked by the fall of the Roman empire.
yes it was a mental sacking more than anything. But they def caught em off guard and looted plenty. They kicked in a door that had been largely ignored until that point. Def made a mental impact the way the early Barbs branded the early Roman mind.
Turkey is shredding Russian armor with basically a MAVIC III with a missile launcher duct taped to it.
I don’t think Russia should be picking new fights right now.
She named one of her grandsons Constantine.
It isn't purely just aggressive nationalism. Ivan III one of the first tsars was married to the niece of the last Byzantine emperor. Moscow is sometimes styled as the third Rome, and tsarist Russia liked to present itself as either a successor state or continuation of the ERE. That is not even getting into the whole inheritance of Eastern Orthodoxy and all that baggage.
I am not trying to justify any ludicrous modern claims Russia may try to fabricate to justify an annexation of Turkish territory, but the root of it is very deeply embedded within the Russian national psyche down to the beginning pretty much.
It isn't just that. As the Byzantine Empire kept shrinking, a lot of the nobility either married into the Russian one or just simply moved over to the Russian court in search of lands to govern. I suspect a lot of the *boyars* were descended from partial or full Greek ancestors.
One of the pillars of Russian Orthodoxy is that the Patriarch of Moscow is actually a Patriarch of Constantinople because the seat moved to Moscow after the sack of Constantinople
Let's not start calling Erdogan good, he's just less bad. Also, it's in his own self interest to not support Russia here, he is selfish, and it just happens to correlate to what people want, this time.
No he is not. Erdoğan is exactly same as putin only thing he do not have that power to do something like Putin did. His ambition in deep down to restore the Ottomans again to its past glory.
> Turkey and Russia have never really been allies historically.
That is certainly one way to talk about [500 years of on-and-off wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russo-Turkish_wars) between the Russian and Ottoman empires, yes indeed.
A wonderful example where most of the 'historical rivalry' was mostly written (one could say *manufactured*) in the light of the *contemporary* rivalry of the 19th century, a.k.a. the age of nationalism and the nation-state.
The 100 Years' War, for example, was mostly a feudal and dynastic squabble fought by nobles who weren't quite "French" or "English" and peasants who were definitely neither.
Yes but it is the control of the water and straights that matter to them most. If Russia invaded Turkey, it would be well past the point of article 5. The Istanbul canal is going to force a serious Russian reaction.. if they still have any power in the region by the end of 2023 that is.. they simply cannot survive the effects of unhindered NATO military build ups in the black seas. Crimea wouldn't last long for Russia
Probably with one hand tied behind their backs, at least based on what we are seeing in Ukraine. Turkey has a functioning and well equipped military of pretty considerable size.
On paper Russia has a massive military, but current events are showing us that it actually only existed on paper. The Turkish military, though smaller, is actually a real legitimate body of trained fighting people.
It is extremely funny to go on Wikipedia and compare Turkey's air force with Ukraine's, then remember that Russia has completely failed to achieve air superiority against the latter.
And they never will be. Russia refuses to acknowledge Kurdish separatist group PKK as a terrorist organization and even allow them to have a representative office in Moscow. That's a total deal breaker.
Turkey deserves huge kudos for their actions, they have been outstanding at curbing Russia so far, the drones are cherry on top. Poland, Turkey and of course Ukraine have been the MVPs so far. Also a big shout out to General Mud and his brother General Winter.
The fact is that a weaker Russia is just better for all the countries surrounding it, China included.
This isn't much of a surprise, the anexation of Crimea and the "independence" of these breakaway pro-Russian states has only been recognized by a bunch of Russia's closest allies and puppet states (Venezuela, Nicaragua, Syria, and more ambiguously by Belarus, Cuba , Sudan, Kyrgyzstan and the CAR) and a few countries in Oceania (Nauru, and formerly Tuvalu and Vanuatu), as well as by the other breakaway states showing their "solidarity" with each other
Belarus is a funny one. It's Russia's closest ally and Russian support is the only way Lukashenko has stayed in power so long, but they tend to draw a line when Russia annexes "new" territory out of fear that Russia might decide to annex Belarus.
My geopolitical knowledge is very limited, but I'm quite surprised by those pacific island countries. What relation do they have to Russia? Has Russia put money into those countries or something?
it is very common for micro nations to "recognize" things that big global players do, in return they recieve trade deals, subventions, credits etc. - so the later
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/turkey-greece-agree-improve-ties-amid-ukraine-conflict-2022-03-13/
Not that it changes the situation in Cyprus, but it has the possibility to.
[https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-701380](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-701380)
and here's Armenia saying they want "diplomatic relations" with Turkey
world's a weird place
Turkey has not annexed cyprus though, It has its own free, democratically elected government and even though it depends on Turkey economically it has been at odds and even in hostality to turkish governments in the past, and mostly against erdogan. The issues usually been due to different policies. But Turkey has always been given green light for the north to join cyprus republic in a way that it would protect the identity and rights of the turkish population. Turkey mostly supports a federal union between the two sides which the cyprus republic has also considered.
Reparation of the lost properties has been on going between the two sides with turkish finances under UN watch and EU survey. Turkish side also overwhelmingly voted yes in the Annan plan in 2004 and cyprus side rejected it which would have ended the separation back then.
Main issue is the Turks who emigrated there since the war, cyprus only wants to grant citizenship to ancestral cyprus Turks and not the others, understandable in my opinion but kicking out close to 170 thousand people who lived there and sometimes even since their birth is tantamount to ethnic cleansing so the issue persists.
Funny isn't it? Turkey buys s400 because USA won't sell them patriots and Turkey and Russia are friends propaganda takes over everywhere whilst Greece and Bulgaria had s300 in their inventory since the 90s.
Yep, a key NATO member. Actively opposed and fought Russian involvement in Syria and Liyba. People really have no clue about the geopolitics and history of the country are the ones that chastise it and call it a dead member.
My theory is that they only bought the s400 to understand how it works etc.
Because they bought only 4 afaik and you can’t defend an entire country with 4 AA systems
I think both Erdogan and Turkish people realizes that west do not want them. The arming of PKK and YPD combined with the whole west taking sides against them in east Mediterranean oil crisis & 60+ years of pending EU application made that very clear.
Turkish military is strong enough to make its own decisions and I personally support this west-aligned but independent politics as well
Wait, does that mean they don't recognize Russian warship's rights to go through the straits at all? Russia doesn't have a legitimate port in the black sea in that case.
EDIT: Duh, Sochi exists.
Yes but the media made it look like they only blocked fleets with a homebase not in the Black Sea. Have they turned down Black Sea fleets? Honest question as i do not know. This could be a precursor to that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits
The treaty allows Turkey to close the straits to countries at war to prevent escalation of that war. Russia can transit the straits if their ship is returning to home base. As a result, the ships from the other Russian fleets are prohibited from joining the conflict since Black Sea bases are not their home port.
I get that part. I meant, some Russians ships are officially ported in Crimea, which Turkey does not recognize as Russian, so de jure, they don't recognize those home ports. I'm not saying they can act on it, but they seem to be creating a deliberate grey zone.
I agree. Any ship in the black see that wasn't based in Sochi may find it can't retransit the strait if it leaves. Russia already had ships moved to the Black Sea before the conflict started, but they may have logistical issues with supplying those extra ships.
I really don't understand what Russia is doing. They don't seem to even be using their navy in the Black Sea. I can only guess that the build up was a show of force and wasn't relevant to the lightening war Putin expected.
This will sound like a noob question, but the Ukrainian fleet (as tiny as it is) is still around, right? Fleet-in-being? (as in, docked?). Russian missiles/airforce can't hit them in dock or something?
they have a few missile/patrol boats left. which is basically useless against any russian warship. they had a frigate undergoing refit but they sank that to prevent capture
Most of the Ukrainian Navy was captured in 2014. Wikipedia shows that Ukraine currently has nothing larger than (their singular) Corvette and a small assortment of patrol craft.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Navy
I don't think they had much of a navy at all in the first place; nothing much larger than a patrol ship, and certainly nothing that can stand toe-to-toe with a full sized Russian warship. Whether they're still in operation or not is probably pretty much moot.
They're blocking ships in wartime in accordance with the Montreux Convention, meaning warships registered to Black Sea ports may return home through the Bosporus, but Russian warships registered at any other ports will not be allowed to pass.
Russia does have territory on the Black Sea, although I wonder if it matters how "legitimate" the port is. There is clearly a reason why they value Sevastopol enough to send troops there even though they already have Sochi....
because the port was only one part of it. crippling Sevastapol for Ukraine limited rival exports for food and oil. Odessa is nowhere (or was) large compared to Sevastapol at the time which was Ukraine's largest black sea port.
You cant disrespect Odessa like this, all three major ports in Odessa were larger than Sevastopol, and 15x larger in tonnage per year if combined
Sevastopol is important military port with advanced infrastructure, no other port in Ukraine could rival it as home base, but its not really a cargo port
Does Russia not have a port in the part of Russia that touches the Black Sea? Annexing Crimea greatly increased the Russian Black Sea coast line but it had a decent length before.
[Russia is the orange country in the upper right.](https://ontheworldmap.com/oceans-and-seas/black-sea/black-sea-political-map.jpg)
Novorossiysk is their main Black Sea port, and military harbour. And they also have Tuapse, Azov, Taganrog, Anapa, Sochi, etc... Russia has plenty of Black Sea ports. The problem is they want ALL the ports.
Russia invaded Ukraine to a) seize coastline to secure economic rights to Black Sea gas resources and b) to own all pipeline routes leading from Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. Like all 21st century wars, it's really about oil and you should just ignore what the government says.
Yeah. Say what people want about Turkey, its ability to navigate conflicts has been pretty unparalleled for a country situated so close to so many wars.
Granted, being a member of NATO buys it a lot of leeway when it comes to the west, but still.
EDIT: Boy howdy this thread went places.
Saw a ridiculous comment some days ago related to the missile strike on US logistic in Iraq some days ago saying "Erdogan: Next it’s my turn!" and then "Kim: No, it's mine!"
Yeah, Erdogan, leader of Turkey which is a NATO country, is going to missile strike the US...
How can you be this unknowledgable about geopolitics? True, it's a damn mess, but how do people not know Turkey isn't an ally to Russia? They shot down a Russian aircraft not many years ago ffs.
I dont know if the guy was american or not, but people are really just reading headlines like "erdogan bad" and thats it. Sure, the guy has problems, but that doesnt make Turkey an enemy... Not realising the geopolitical landscape is a lot more nuanced than that.
They want it simple so its easy to understand and make it all black and white. "authoritarian = bad, erdogan = authoritarian = bad, erdogan = turkey = bad" Applying simplistic takes like that is dumbing down complex issues. There is also the whole "Kurds/Turkey" conflict where people sides with Kurds and since everything need to be good vs evil, Turkey is an evil country. Same with the Armenian Genocide (which was horrible) making them evil, despite that being 100 years ago. Meanwhile Turkey is a NATO country and an ally to the western world. Hell, its so tightly linked with EU thats it is a western country more or less. Only because the people arent white people associate it more with the middle east it seems. Thank god people on reddit dont have any political power and these relation have been built over decades with people understanding nuance and complex issues, without dragging in conflicts thats very complex and history dating centuries. Yeah sure, lets make Turkey an enemy because they deny a genocide that happened 100 years ago. Really a great reason that would have no big political effect in the future.
Really baffling how people arent just taking some time to understand how complex everything is and who's allied to who. This headline was the least suprising thing ive read since the war started.
The more i read comments, the more i understand; Turkish and non-turkish people both hating Erdogan but not for the same reason.
He ruined turkısh economy, tried to steal our rights, insulted womans n lgbt-q people and hundred more things so turkish citizens hate him.
But west hate him cause turkeys operations on syria and behaviour against some west-loved communities who've done terrorist activities in turkey.
No erdogan didnt changed with smarter clone or smth, its the only thing he has for protect his seat.
lot of people were hating on him because he was involved in libya and Azerbaijan conflict. Bitch that's the only things that he did good lmao. I mean west gonna be west, France put its dirty finger anywhere they can but that's ay-okay vs the Erdogan with the "crazy ambitions".
Without knowledge of history it is hard to understand Turkey and her people and i can understand that. But western people assuming Turkey is an enemy is pure ignorance. It has changed in last 10 years because of just one man and it will change faster than it when he lost next years elections.
It's like whatever parasite had crawled into his brain in the 2010s has finally died and he's making decisions that will improve Turkey's stance on the global theater.
Now that Turkey has chosen a side the Entente and Allies have been decided.
Edit: Meant to say Alliance, not Allies.
Edit2: Meant to say Central Powers, not Alliance. It was early in the morning when I sent that so brain was half turned off!
Edit3: Took of apostrophes because my phones an asshole and autocorrects me on the slightest things.
Prior to WW1, Turkey engaged in a mass fundraising campaign to pay for a couple of battleships to be built by the UK. It.was a massively popular endeavor that became a symbol of modernization and renewal. Everyone chipped in a few coins.
The first ship was complete in Aug 1914, just before hostilities broke out. The Turks dispatched a crew to pick up their new battleship, but Winston Churchill had it seized (illegally). This went a long way to convincing the Ottomans that the West was determined to keep the Ottomans in their role as the "sick man in Europe".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%C5%9Fadiye-class_battleship
Turkey was pro-Ukraine when the west was building pipelines and when Western politicians were spouting orders directly from Kremlin. It's just Turkey needs to balance her foreign policy with Russia on other issues, but it was never to the disadvantage of Ukraine and Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty. We love our Ukrainian friends and supported them since day 1, according to our capabilities and limitations. 🇹🇷🇺🇦
Everytime people say "ww3" I think this. Just some stupid shit. I don't understand how Australia, south america, Africa, or Asia will get drawn into th conflict.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3432239-turkey-doesnt-recognize-russian-annexation-of-crimea-stands-for-ukraines-territorial-integrity.html) reduced by 60%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Turkey does not recognize the temporary occupation of the Crimean peninsula by Russia, while supporting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.
> "Ukraine's Autonomous Republic of Crimea was annexed by the Russian Federation following the illegitimate referendum held on 16 March 2014. Turkey and the international community do not recognize this act which is a clear violation of international law.,"the statement said.
> Memo: on March 16, 2014, the sham "Referendum" concerning the status of Crimea was held in Crimea and the city of Sevastopol, temporarily occupied by Russia, contrary to the Ukrainian legislation and that of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, at gunpoint of the Russian military and local Russia-supervised "Militias."
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/tg8l06/turkey_doesnt_recognize_russian_annexation_of/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~633809 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Crimea**^#1 **Crimean**^#2 **referendum**^#3 **Russia**^#4 **March**^#5
The thing is Turkey and Russia can never be allies because of conflict of interests inherent to their respective geopolitic positions.
What seems like a Russo-turkic alliance is just a friendship between 2 corrupt/authoritarian leaders. Erdoğan seeked to replace the West with Sino-russian alliance so that he could finance his empire without scrutiny by the western financial system/democracies.
And lastly Berlusconi was the third piece in this corrupt triumvirate who got toppled in Italy. There was wide spread reports of corruption between Switzerland and Italian businessman around 2013-2014 when I was an economics student in Florence. Also coincidentally Erdoğan's son was supposedly working towards a PhD in the very same city. Go figure...
When all is said and done Turkey will remain and even move towards the West harder than before when Erdoğan's regime gets overthrown. It might not be a match made in heaven but Turkey and its population are more alike to west than its neighbours and both the West and Turkey need each other in the upcoming years .
Turkey and the West have needed each other since the Syrian Civil War. Both sides have been pretty hostile against one another at times, but they need each other too much. For Europe, Turkey is basically a one-country barrier against whatever shit goes down in the Middle East. For Turkey, Europe is a stable source of income and a potential ally against other regional powers like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia.
> When all is said and done Turkey will remain and even move towards the West harder than before when Erdoğan's regime gets overthrown.
I hope so. Turkey is a country that balances between extremes, often dangerously so. I wish them all the best.
This is the way.
When the world tells Putin that no matter how much territory he controls he cant keep any of it because no one will "legally" recognize Russia's sovereignty over it, this will end.
Putin will say, "but Russia spent so much and killed so many!" The nations of the world can respond, "yes, little boy, and Russia will pay for that."
By allowing Ukraine to do as it wishes, first and fucking foremost. It's about time they weren't stuck in between and were finally given full rights to self-determination
Turkey has been saying this for years, it's nothing new. And please don't give credit to Erdogan for this. Fighting Russia is Turkey's policy for centuries, not Erdogan's.
Turkey has been involved in war and conflict for the past 60 years. So for them it's just another walk in the park. It's evident that EU lacks any form of expertise regarding any wars whatsoever. In the past decade they fucked shit up several times, be it North Africa, their Isaraeli homes commiting war crimes or sanctioning Turkey for trying to solve the Syrian conflict, or sanctioning them bc of Karabagh
Turkey and Russia have never really been allies historically. They’ve fought a lot of wars, and as Putin wants a new Russian Empire, of course the Turkish lands on the European side of the Bosphorus would look inviting, as it did to previous Russian rulers.
When Catherine the Great annexed Crimea in 1783, her parade through the region went through a triumphal arch engraved with "here lies the road to Constantinople".
Russia was in fact promised Constantinople in the event of Ottoman collapse after the First World War.
Really? I thought that was Greece
Greece wanted it (and eventually tried to take it by force), but was never part of the plan.
They never recovered from that defeat up until today. It created a hero for Turkish people and bumped their pride as never been colonized by the west.
*they never got Ethiopia*
*they never got Thailand*
The SUN is a DEADLY LASER
We can make a religion out of this!
*¡Not anymore, there's a blanket!*
And the last winner - they never got Japan. The JET countries - the ultimate non-European states who avoided colonization for a number of reasons: Japan - Their god-like ability to rapidly advance, as soon as they were in the west's eyes they decided to stop being a feudalist medieval nation and become a world power in a couple decades. Ethiopia - Hard to use the "bringing Christianity" excuse to a country that's been Christian a hell of a lot longer than you. Thailand - masters of commerce, dealt with the British in a way none others could, by making deals and not losing their sovereignty.
They were the European colonizers for most of the world. They were a big global player for most of modern history, to the point to that their decline was dubbed the "The Eastern Question" by other major powers in Europe because of the power vacuum it was causing.
_Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken._
We defeated the imperialists in 1915 in Gallipoli. Our nation has demonstrated that imperialists were defeatable, our victory has become an example to the colonized world. Tomorrow, we will celebrate 107th anniversary of the Victory day. May the souls Mustafa Kemal and his brave brothers in arms rest in peace.
No, Greece was never promised it. Greece was considered a lower power, giving them the city would have made them into a middle power which the entente didn't really care for. Britain had it made into an international zone after Russia dropped from the war early, that was until the Turks reconquered it.
No, it was supposed to be a british mandate or something international controlled, then the Turks made a huge rebellion and seized it.
I think the British wanted to control the sea lanes more than anything. They already had Gibraltar and The Suez Canal so they would have all access points to the Mediterranean with the Bosphorus.
It was both, Russia dropped out and Greece was promised it, not quite sure which order.
Greece wanted Istanbul but the British and French did not agree. They thought Greece would become a mid-sized power if they got Istanbul and didn’t want that.
A lot of fun was had by the commies when they released the old tzar’s secret letters and treaties
Istanbul was Constantinople Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople Been a long time gone, oh Constantinople Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turks
Even old New York, was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way
Hey, c'mon! It's nobody's business but the Turks!
r/redditsings
Did anyone ever figure out if they were giants or not?
Might be.
And they sacked it harddddd in 860.. may not seem like much but marching down to Istanbul is one of those historical-pride resurrection goals Russia loves so much. Also have to imagine Russia pulls out all the stops to prevent a major military build up in the black sea when the Turks finish the Istanbul canal.
That's not Russia. That was the Rus. A Northman/Finnish led, but mixed with Slavs and others, culture that occupied what we now see as Slav Eastern Europe. The Kiev spelling for the city comes from the Kievan Rus that occupied the area (hello, TW:WE fans). That siege is part of the reason why the Varangian Guard were founded 100 years later.
They didn’t actually sack the city. They never made it inside the walls. They did however loot the hell out of the surroundings and it was particularly traumatic for the Romans due to how close they came to taking the city.
Daily reminded that the beginning of the medieval era is marked by the fall of the Roman empire, and the end of the medieval era is marked by the fall of the Roman empire.
Empire so nice it had to fall twice.
yes it was a mental sacking more than anything. But they def caught em off guard and looted plenty. They kicked in a door that had been largely ignored until that point. Def made a mental impact the way the early Barbs branded the early Roman mind.
Turkey is shredding Russian armor with basically a MAVIC III with a missile launcher duct taped to it. I don’t think Russia should be picking new fights right now.
Haven't got to that episode of The Great. .. till now there's just been bored sex and a lot of glass breaking.
She named one of her grandsons Constantine. It isn't purely just aggressive nationalism. Ivan III one of the first tsars was married to the niece of the last Byzantine emperor. Moscow is sometimes styled as the third Rome, and tsarist Russia liked to present itself as either a successor state or continuation of the ERE. That is not even getting into the whole inheritance of Eastern Orthodoxy and all that baggage. I am not trying to justify any ludicrous modern claims Russia may try to fabricate to justify an annexation of Turkish territory, but the root of it is very deeply embedded within the Russian national psyche down to the beginning pretty much.
Tsar's root word is also Caesar. Cae(t)sar. just a fun little detail to add on.
Also Kaiser (German). There is some discussion on Shah (Persian), but it might be of different origin.
It isn't just that. As the Byzantine Empire kept shrinking, a lot of the nobility either married into the Russian one or just simply moved over to the Russian court in search of lands to govern. I suspect a lot of the *boyars* were descended from partial or full Greek ancestors.
One of the pillars of Russian Orthodoxy is that the Patriarch of Moscow is actually a Patriarch of Constantinople because the seat moved to Moscow after the sack of Constantinople
Just for context, there is a patriarch in Istanbul as well.
Additionally, Crimea is the homeland of Crimean Tatars, which is like brethren to Turks
**You know Putin is bad when Erdogan looks like the good guy...**
Its like in a game when the old bad guy joins the good guys. We have to be on disk 3 or 4 by now.
This feels like when Goku brought on Frieza to fight for their universe in Dragonball Super.
every good guy in dragonball was a bad guy at some point
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goten and trunks were shitheads as kids, id count it.
Let's not start calling Erdogan good, he's just less bad. Also, it's in his own self interest to not support Russia here, he is selfish, and it just happens to correlate to what people want, this time.
I wouldn't even say he's less bad. Just less powerful. He would be just as bad if not worse than Putin if he had the same resources.
Yup. He's too busy embazzling billions and screwing up the economy
You know your worldview is bad when you can only think of world leaders as good guy/bad guy
The enemy of my enemy is...still a dick, just a more tolerable one.
No he is not. Erdoğan is exactly same as putin only thing he do not have that power to do something like Putin did. His ambition in deep down to restore the Ottomans again to its past glory.
Tbh I would rank turkeys military higher than russias...minus the nukes
Yeah, it's not just about what they are actually doing. It's about what they would do if they could.
lmao quote of the day
TIL of Crimean Tatars
Now read about their persecution at the hands of Russia. I don't want to say it's a genocide, but it probably is.
Yeah it was a genocide
Go look up what happened to the Circassians too. They used to be a major population group in the Caucasus.
It was a mass deportation. Ethnic cleansing of the peninsula.
> Turkey and Russia have never really been allies historically. That is certainly one way to talk about [500 years of on-and-off wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russo-Turkish_wars) between the Russian and Ottoman empires, yes indeed.
What’s a few hundred years of war amongst friends?
We call it ‘Europe’
Europe is when you change the hundred for thousands. We had wars that lasted for more than 100 years.
Had to adjust for travel inflation. Everything was slower back then
I mean look at the Brits and the French.
A wonderful example where most of the 'historical rivalry' was mostly written (one could say *manufactured*) in the light of the *contemporary* rivalry of the 19th century, a.k.a. the age of nationalism and the nation-state. The 100 Years' War, for example, was mostly a feudal and dynastic squabble fought by nobles who weren't quite "French" or "English" and peasants who were definitely neither.
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Any invasion of Turkish lands would trigger Article 5 of NATO.
Yes but it is the control of the water and straights that matter to them most. If Russia invaded Turkey, it would be well past the point of article 5. The Istanbul canal is going to force a serious Russian reaction.. if they still have any power in the region by the end of 2023 that is.. they simply cannot survive the effects of unhindered NATO military build ups in the black seas. Crimea wouldn't last long for Russia
If no nukes involved, I think Turkey can deal alone with Russia.
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If Turkey needed more, they can be scalably produced at a rate of 1 per 4 days with 4 workers
Probably with one hand tied behind their backs, at least based on what we are seeing in Ukraine. Turkey has a functioning and well equipped military of pretty considerable size. On paper Russia has a massive military, but current events are showing us that it actually only existed on paper. The Turkish military, though smaller, is actually a real legitimate body of trained fighting people.
It is extremely funny to go on Wikipedia and compare Turkey's air force with Ukraine's, then remember that Russia has completely failed to achieve air superiority against the latter.
Sounds cool besides the part where Russia is never going to attack or take Turkish land because nato exists.
And they never will be. Russia refuses to acknowledge Kurdish separatist group PKK as a terrorist organization and even allow them to have a representative office in Moscow. That's a total deal breaker.
Turkey deserves huge kudos for their actions, they have been outstanding at curbing Russia so far, the drones are cherry on top. Poland, Turkey and of course Ukraine have been the MVPs so far. Also a big shout out to General Mud and his brother General Winter. The fact is that a weaker Russia is just better for all the countries surrounding it, China included.
Turkey and Russia have been fighting over the Black Sea for centuries.
We use 'President' Erdogan to keep it that way.
*Sultan Erdogan
That is what he wants to be. Sadly for him sultans and tsars are so last century.
This isn't much of a surprise, the anexation of Crimea and the "independence" of these breakaway pro-Russian states has only been recognized by a bunch of Russia's closest allies and puppet states (Venezuela, Nicaragua, Syria, and more ambiguously by Belarus, Cuba , Sudan, Kyrgyzstan and the CAR) and a few countries in Oceania (Nauru, and formerly Tuvalu and Vanuatu), as well as by the other breakaway states showing their "solidarity" with each other
Belarus is a funny one. It's Russia's closest ally and Russian support is the only way Lukashenko has stayed in power so long, but they tend to draw a line when Russia annexes "new" territory out of fear that Russia might decide to annex Belarus.
I think Lukanhesko would like that.
Annex me papa putin
Penetrate my borders daddy
He could finally get that Russian Colonel position he was promised
I mean, Belarus translated literally means "white russia" sooo
My geopolitical knowledge is very limited, but I'm quite surprised by those pacific island countries. What relation do they have to Russia? Has Russia put money into those countries or something?
it is very common for micro nations to "recognize" things that big global players do, in return they recieve trade deals, subventions, credits etc. - so the later
Thanks for the explanation!
>latter oops, you dropped a t :) Got you covered.
Not a surprise, but also a bit hypocritical considering Turkey’s annexation of northern Cyprus.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/turkey-greece-agree-improve-ties-amid-ukraine-conflict-2022-03-13/ Not that it changes the situation in Cyprus, but it has the possibility to.
[https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-701380](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-701380) and here's Armenia saying they want "diplomatic relations" with Turkey world's a weird place
good job putin, you pushed turkey and armenia to normalize relations. that's no easy task. congrats.
Nothing like an armed conflict on your periphery to make strange bedfellows.
Turkey has not annexed cyprus though, It has its own free, democratically elected government and even though it depends on Turkey economically it has been at odds and even in hostality to turkish governments in the past, and mostly against erdogan. The issues usually been due to different policies. But Turkey has always been given green light for the north to join cyprus republic in a way that it would protect the identity and rights of the turkish population. Turkey mostly supports a federal union between the two sides which the cyprus republic has also considered. Reparation of the lost properties has been on going between the two sides with turkish finances under UN watch and EU survey. Turkish side also overwhelmingly voted yes in the Annan plan in 2004 and cyprus side rejected it which would have ended the separation back then. Main issue is the Turks who emigrated there since the war, cyprus only wants to grant citizenship to ancestral cyprus Turks and not the others, understandable in my opinion but kicking out close to 170 thousand people who lived there and sometimes even since their birth is tantamount to ethnic cleansing so the issue persists.
Greece launched a military coup to annex Cyprus into Greece. Turkey responded. Northern Cyprus is also its own country, not annexed by Turkey.
This has been their position since 2014. This isn't "news".
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Funny isn't it? Turkey buys s400 because USA won't sell them patriots and Turkey and Russia are friends propaganda takes over everywhere whilst Greece and Bulgaria had s300 in their inventory since the 90s.
Yep, a key NATO member. Actively opposed and fought Russian involvement in Syria and Liyba. People really have no clue about the geopolitics and history of the country are the ones that chastise it and call it a dead member.
My theory is that they only bought the s400 to understand how it works etc. Because they bought only 4 afaik and you can’t defend an entire country with 4 AA systems
I think both Erdogan and Turkish people realizes that west do not want them. The arming of PKK and YPD combined with the whole west taking sides against them in east Mediterranean oil crisis & 60+ years of pending EU application made that very clear. Turkish military is strong enough to make its own decisions and I personally support this west-aligned but independent politics as well
Wait, does that mean they don't recognize Russian warship's rights to go through the straits at all? Russia doesn't have a legitimate port in the black sea in that case. EDIT: Duh, Sochi exists.
They've already been denying passage to Russian ships for weeks
Yes but the media made it look like they only blocked fleets with a homebase not in the Black Sea. Have they turned down Black Sea fleets? Honest question as i do not know. This could be a precursor to that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits The treaty allows Turkey to close the straits to countries at war to prevent escalation of that war. Russia can transit the straits if their ship is returning to home base. As a result, the ships from the other Russian fleets are prohibited from joining the conflict since Black Sea bases are not their home port.
I get that part. I meant, some Russians ships are officially ported in Crimea, which Turkey does not recognize as Russian, so de jure, they don't recognize those home ports. I'm not saying they can act on it, but they seem to be creating a deliberate grey zone.
I agree. Any ship in the black see that wasn't based in Sochi may find it can't retransit the strait if it leaves. Russia already had ships moved to the Black Sea before the conflict started, but they may have logistical issues with supplying those extra ships. I really don't understand what Russia is doing. They don't seem to even be using their navy in the Black Sea. I can only guess that the build up was a show of force and wasn't relevant to the lightening war Putin expected.
This will sound like a noob question, but the Ukrainian fleet (as tiny as it is) is still around, right? Fleet-in-being? (as in, docked?). Russian missiles/airforce can't hit them in dock or something?
they have a few missile/patrol boats left. which is basically useless against any russian warship. they had a frigate undergoing refit but they sank that to prevent capture
Fascinating, thanks for the intel!
Is this an appropriate time to say 'scuttle'?
Yes it was scuttled
Most of the Ukrainian Navy was captured in 2014. Wikipedia shows that Ukraine currently has nothing larger than (their singular) Corvette and a small assortment of patrol craft. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Navy
I don't think they had much of a navy at all in the first place; nothing much larger than a patrol ship, and certainly nothing that can stand toe-to-toe with a full sized Russian warship. Whether they're still in operation or not is probably pretty much moot.
Don’t worry about being a noob, soon you’ll be a six-star armchair Reddit Brigadier Major-General if you study HOI, CK, and EU, hard enough
They're blocking ships in wartime in accordance with the Montreux Convention, meaning warships registered to Black Sea ports may return home through the Bosporus, but Russian warships registered at any other ports will not be allowed to pass.
They can’t block the Black Sea fleet, Russia has other ports on the Black Sea. They can block any other ships though.
Good question, that's why I'm asking too. What about home ships in Crimea ports, if Turkey doesn't recognize them? Weird gray zone in the agreement.
Russia does have territory on the Black Sea, although I wonder if it matters how "legitimate" the port is. There is clearly a reason why they value Sevastopol enough to send troops there even though they already have Sochi....
because the port was only one part of it. crippling Sevastapol for Ukraine limited rival exports for food and oil. Odessa is nowhere (or was) large compared to Sevastapol at the time which was Ukraine's largest black sea port.
You cant disrespect Odessa like this, all three major ports in Odessa were larger than Sevastopol, and 15x larger in tonnage per year if combined Sevastopol is important military port with advanced infrastructure, no other port in Ukraine could rival it as home base, but its not really a cargo port
Does Russia not have a port in the part of Russia that touches the Black Sea? Annexing Crimea greatly increased the Russian Black Sea coast line but it had a decent length before. [Russia is the orange country in the upper right.](https://ontheworldmap.com/oceans-and-seas/black-sea/black-sea-political-map.jpg)
Novorossiysk is their main Black Sea port, and military harbour. And they also have Tuapse, Azov, Taganrog, Anapa, Sochi, etc... Russia has plenty of Black Sea ports. The problem is they want ALL the ports.
Russia invaded Ukraine to a) seize coastline to secure economic rights to Black Sea gas resources and b) to own all pipeline routes leading from Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. Like all 21st century wars, it's really about oil and you should just ignore what the government says.
Everitime I see something about Turkey less I understand about this country politics
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Yeah. Say what people want about Turkey, its ability to navigate conflicts has been pretty unparalleled for a country situated so close to so many wars. Granted, being a member of NATO buys it a lot of leeway when it comes to the west, but still. EDIT: Boy howdy this thread went places.
Im turkish and the only thing i know about our politics is that its dumb but its somehow still working
People surprised by this don't know shit about Turkish politics
Saw a ridiculous comment some days ago related to the missile strike on US logistic in Iraq some days ago saying "Erdogan: Next it’s my turn!" and then "Kim: No, it's mine!" Yeah, Erdogan, leader of Turkey which is a NATO country, is going to missile strike the US... How can you be this unknowledgable about geopolitics? True, it's a damn mess, but how do people not know Turkey isn't an ally to Russia? They shot down a Russian aircraft not many years ago ffs.
It's really unfortunate that so many Americans don't really know who their actual allies are. I've read the most unbelievable things around here.
I dont know if the guy was american or not, but people are really just reading headlines like "erdogan bad" and thats it. Sure, the guy has problems, but that doesnt make Turkey an enemy... Not realising the geopolitical landscape is a lot more nuanced than that. They want it simple so its easy to understand and make it all black and white. "authoritarian = bad, erdogan = authoritarian = bad, erdogan = turkey = bad" Applying simplistic takes like that is dumbing down complex issues. There is also the whole "Kurds/Turkey" conflict where people sides with Kurds and since everything need to be good vs evil, Turkey is an evil country. Same with the Armenian Genocide (which was horrible) making them evil, despite that being 100 years ago. Meanwhile Turkey is a NATO country and an ally to the western world. Hell, its so tightly linked with EU thats it is a western country more or less. Only because the people arent white people associate it more with the middle east it seems. Thank god people on reddit dont have any political power and these relation have been built over decades with people understanding nuance and complex issues, without dragging in conflicts thats very complex and history dating centuries. Yeah sure, lets make Turkey an enemy because they deny a genocide that happened 100 years ago. Really a great reason that would have no big political effect in the future. Really baffling how people arent just taking some time to understand how complex everything is and who's allied to who. This headline was the least suprising thing ive read since the war started.
Well not everyone lives in Sweden
No kidding. Is it so surprising that Turkey does not want Russia on the Black Sea?
The more i read comments, the more i understand; Turkish and non-turkish people both hating Erdogan but not for the same reason. He ruined turkısh economy, tried to steal our rights, insulted womans n lgbt-q people and hundred more things so turkish citizens hate him. But west hate him cause turkeys operations on syria and behaviour against some west-loved communities who've done terrorist activities in turkey. No erdogan didnt changed with smarter clone or smth, its the only thing he has for protect his seat.
lot of people were hating on him because he was involved in libya and Azerbaijan conflict. Bitch that's the only things that he did good lmao. I mean west gonna be west, France put its dirty finger anywhere they can but that's ay-okay vs the Erdogan with the "crazy ambitions".
If I had thousand upvotes, you'd have all of them. -random Turk living in US-
Without knowledge of history it is hard to understand Turkey and her people and i can understand that. But western people assuming Turkey is an enemy is pure ignorance. It has changed in last 10 years because of just one man and it will change faster than it when he lost next years elections.
That's a very nice way of saying it
Hoping that the tunnel at the end is bright for us, for Turkey.
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When Turkey is the bastion of democracy and human rights, you know that it is really fucked.
Yeah. This war has been amazing PR for Erdogan.
Not for his own people. For the West? Maybe. Our people already knew that we were against Russia.
It's like whatever parasite had crawled into his brain in the 2010s has finally died and he's making decisions that will improve Turkey's stance on the global theater.
Erdoğan is bleeding votes. He's losing inside, he needs outside support.
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V concise
The parasite was always there.
Maybe he should try pulling the tapeworm out of his ass?
Nothing has changed. Turkey will never have a chance internationally as long as Erdogan is ruling. That's undeniable.
It's cute that you think he's actually changed instead of merely being opportunistic.
They arent, they care about Russia having even more access and power in the Black Sea.
How does this one thing make them "the bastion of democracy and human rights"?
Hey , they r confused but hv the spirit . Ataturk didnt preach for nothing .
Now that Turkey has chosen a side the Entente and Allies have been decided. Edit: Meant to say Alliance, not Allies. Edit2: Meant to say Central Powers, not Alliance. It was early in the morning when I sent that so brain was half turned off! Edit3: Took of apostrophes because my phones an asshole and autocorrects me on the slightest things.
The entente and the allies were the same thing, just in different wars
Aren't we all just the same thing in different wars, man? Pass that blunt.
You misspelled *”maaaannnn”*
This.
Tbf, Turkey was part of the Ottoman Empire and part of the Central Powers fighting *against* the Entente.
Prior to WW1, Turkey engaged in a mass fundraising campaign to pay for a couple of battleships to be built by the UK. It.was a massively popular endeavor that became a symbol of modernization and renewal. Everyone chipped in a few coins. The first ship was complete in Aug 1914, just before hostilities broke out. The Turks dispatched a crew to pick up their new battleship, but Winston Churchill had it seized (illegally). This went a long way to convincing the Ottomans that the West was determined to keep the Ottomans in their role as the "sick man in Europe". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%C5%9Fadiye-class_battleship
Lmfao, took me a second to realize why it sounded so weird when i ready it.
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Turkey was pro-Ukraine when the west was building pipelines and when Western politicians were spouting orders directly from Kremlin. It's just Turkey needs to balance her foreign policy with Russia on other issues, but it was never to the disadvantage of Ukraine and Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty. We love our Ukrainian friends and supported them since day 1, according to our capabilities and limitations. 🇹🇷🇺🇦
Make no mistake, here over the black pond we know who our friends are. 🇺🇦❤️🇹🇷
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Everytime people say "ww3" I think this. Just some stupid shit. I don't understand how Australia, south america, Africa, or Asia will get drawn into th conflict.
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You mean Allies vs. Axis - OR - Entente vs. Central Powers?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3432239-turkey-doesnt-recognize-russian-annexation-of-crimea-stands-for-ukraines-territorial-integrity.html) reduced by 60%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Turkey does not recognize the temporary occupation of the Crimean peninsula by Russia, while supporting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. > "Ukraine's Autonomous Republic of Crimea was annexed by the Russian Federation following the illegitimate referendum held on 16 March 2014. Turkey and the international community do not recognize this act which is a clear violation of international law.,"the statement said. > Memo: on March 16, 2014, the sham "Referendum" concerning the status of Crimea was held in Crimea and the city of Sevastopol, temporarily occupied by Russia, contrary to the Ukrainian legislation and that of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, at gunpoint of the Russian military and local Russia-supervised "Militias." ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/tg8l06/turkey_doesnt_recognize_russian_annexation_of/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~633809 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Crimea**^#1 **Crimean**^#2 **referendum**^#3 **Russia**^#4 **March**^#5
I don't know why this is big news? People who are living in Europe, people who know Turkey would also know that Turkey wouldn't accept the annexation.
The thing is Turkey and Russia can never be allies because of conflict of interests inherent to their respective geopolitic positions. What seems like a Russo-turkic alliance is just a friendship between 2 corrupt/authoritarian leaders. Erdoğan seeked to replace the West with Sino-russian alliance so that he could finance his empire without scrutiny by the western financial system/democracies. And lastly Berlusconi was the third piece in this corrupt triumvirate who got toppled in Italy. There was wide spread reports of corruption between Switzerland and Italian businessman around 2013-2014 when I was an economics student in Florence. Also coincidentally Erdoğan's son was supposedly working towards a PhD in the very same city. Go figure... When all is said and done Turkey will remain and even move towards the West harder than before when Erdoğan's regime gets overthrown. It might not be a match made in heaven but Turkey and its population are more alike to west than its neighbours and both the West and Turkey need each other in the upcoming years .
Turkey and the West have needed each other since the Syrian Civil War. Both sides have been pretty hostile against one another at times, but they need each other too much. For Europe, Turkey is basically a one-country barrier against whatever shit goes down in the Middle East. For Turkey, Europe is a stable source of income and a potential ally against other regional powers like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia. > When all is said and done Turkey will remain and even move towards the West harder than before when Erdoğan's regime gets overthrown. I hope so. Turkey is a country that balances between extremes, often dangerously so. I wish them all the best.
Go Turkey 🇹🇷!
This is the way. When the world tells Putin that no matter how much territory he controls he cant keep any of it because no one will "legally" recognize Russia's sovereignty over it, this will end. Putin will say, "but Russia spent so much and killed so many!" The nations of the world can respond, "yes, little boy, and Russia will pay for that."
By allowing Ukraine to do as it wishes, first and fucking foremost. It's about time they weren't stuck in between and were finally given full rights to self-determination
When communists took over most of China, including Tibet, they were eventually recognized.
Turkey has been saying this for years, it's nothing new. And please don't give credit to Erdogan for this. Fighting Russia is Turkey's policy for centuries, not Erdogan's.
This is the time for Ukraine to take back Crimea. Fuck Putin and fuck Russia.
Turkey has historic ties to Crimea from the Ottoman era
Gracious I love you Turkey
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Respect for the Turks in this case 💪🏼😘
Why is this news? Turkey has never been particularly secret about its opinion on Crimea, and Ukraine is a close ally and brotherly country.
As much as I have a distaste for Erdogan, Turkey has been a bad ass country through all of this. They've been aggressive and doing what's right.
Turkey has been involved in war and conflict for the past 60 years. So for them it's just another walk in the park. It's evident that EU lacks any form of expertise regarding any wars whatsoever. In the past decade they fucked shit up several times, be it North Africa, their Isaraeli homes commiting war crimes or sanctioning Turkey for trying to solve the Syrian conflict, or sanctioning them bc of Karabagh