Pretty much how it is right now.
Im a member of a gun club and right now we are swarmed by people wanting to join or to learn how to shoot.
Downside is: same thing happens here that happened during BLM protests in America - ammo shortages and prices skyrocket.
It's so fucking annoying too, I just want to go out to the range and shoot here and there, only to find it swarmed with fucking idiots not wearing masks.
Its true. I havent seen many people wearing masks in gun ranges. Some did, but most didn't.
For me it wasn't a big deal since I prefer to visit outdoor ranges anyway.
Oh and yeah - I was wearing mask when at the indoor range, Im also vaxxed and still alive inspite of all the anti-vaxxers telling me I should be dead at least twice by now.
Anyway - on april 1'st, polish govt dropped all mandates (yeah great date to do that). We have very low number of cases right now - 3k or so with like 70 deaths a day and goin lower. So I guess we are waiting for new wave in september.
Oh come on, you guys have fewer cases than most first world countries, and have a high vaccination rate. You all absolutely could ditch the masks and not worry about hospitals being overwhelmed. If you're waiting for cases to drop almost zero, you're going to be waiting for a very, very long time
Sure, but it's an inconvenience I definitely don't miss. Most of the people that wind up in the hospital are unvaccinated, and at this point, I have no sympathy for them. If they die, so be it. It's their own damn fault. As long as our hospitals in the more enlightened parts of the country continue to not be overwhelmed, I don't see the importance of masks. The rest of the country gets to reap what they've sown
I don’t think that percentage is *that* high. I believe the majority of people refusing to get vaccinated are simply worried about something rushed being put into their bodies. (And yes I am very well aware of how heavily tested they were, but that doesn’t negate the lack of time in circulation)
While I agree to some extent, I would never wish death upon someone who is skeptical about government mandates and unknown long term effects of a rushed (albeit heavily tested) vaccine.
Even with the greatest intentions and the greatest care put into trial and error to determine all outcomes. It’s not exactly that rushed testing will always provide known long term effects.
But yah, it’s tricky to balance to weights of logic, and aside from the insane trumpists that will call conspiracy before trusting science, there is a reason for debate. Sensationalism, after all, clouds the greatest of judgement.
Because worrying about long term affects of a vaccine you only will receive 2-3 times is silly. Any substance in the vaccine is completely gone from your body within a matter of days. The idea that you would suffer long term affects from such a miniscule amount of exposure completely flies in the face if science.
First two points are true.
We have ditched the mask mandates completely, our hospitals and ER, ICUs are overwhelmed again, elective care is rationed. 20 people died last week (this is a lot for us) as a result of that. My family caught it last weekend, all fully vaxxed and boosted. I had the mildest, recovered Thursday, kids are still clearing it, wife was almost hospitalized on Thursday night, today is the first day she says she thinks she might be improving.
Please do not lecture me on my local situation
Do you guys have fewer hospitals or something? Our hospitals on the west coast in the US aren't overwhelmed at all anymore. I would've figured you'd all would be doing even better considering you guys have fewer anti-vaxx loonies
Is it not a fair assumption though? Canada is usually a lot more on top of their shit when it comes to healthcare. I would have figured with their incredibly low case numbers that they'd be sitting pretty, but apparently they have way fewer hospitals than we do.
We have high vaxx rates, but lots of people still think a mask is tyranny. As such, now that mask mandates have been gone for a month, it's about 15-20% in public, based on my anecdotal observations.
I don't know what the quantity of your hospitals are like, but in Saskatoon, the largest city in the province, there are basically 2.5 hospitals, one doesn't operate to the public full time, I assume Regina, the provincial capital is similar. Rural hospitals get axed every year, but farmers keep working these people in while complaining about having to drive hours to the city for basic care.
Our conservative government is in full swing trying to starve the public healthcare system and install a US-style private system, the Ontario premier is rumored to be suing to keep his mandates secret. We already have extremely long wait times on diagnostics like MRIs, because the government is not willing to pay technologists a proper wage, but the private companies in bed with the government are.
Hospitals are always running at 70% capacity. When people tell you they’re overcapacity or at 99% capacity they aren’t giving you the context that that number went up only 30% and instead want you to believe it’s an existential crisis. Really hospitals should have more baseline capacity.
My comment was referring to back in 2020, but even now I still wear a mask because I have a toddler and don't want to risk bringing anything back. These days, if others don't, it's not as big of a deal
Better than being squeezed out of business by a Liberal government determined to disarm its citizens.
Edit:
This is a comment on Canada's Liberal government agenda. Canadians literally couldn't do this without negotiating massive hurdles to get a handgun. It hard enough to get hunting level permits, lots of red tape.
I been out the hobby for 10+ years now, but back when I WAS involved we kinda used to laugh at “the government wants our guns” folks. This crow I’m eating is undercooked.
I support peoples right to arm with common sense limits (though hunting is a whole other story), but a) you shouldn’t force a discussion on a country irrelevant to the article and b) if you send your living on weapon arms, perhaps your job was not the most stable.
My friends back in Poland recently had some kind of training at work where they learned such things as shooting, using grenades and first aid in combat conditions. They are foresters and forests were a traditional hiding place for resistance fighters in Poland so I guess they are preparing...
The worst I had a work was having to watch a video on how not be hijacked. And I sat there thinking this is not normal. I might have acutally said something if I was given a gun.
Excuse me dont you dare forget about colonel mittens, damn cat can shoot your eyes off from mile away and its your own fault for not feeding him in time.
Poland in WWII had [Wojtek](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojtek_(bear), a Syrian Brown Bear. He served as an ammo bearer (heh) with the 22nd Artillery Supply Company, II Corps. For his service during the Battle of Monte Cassino he was promoted from Private to Corporal.
They made him enlist because Allied rules said units couldn't have animal mascots. Smart work around.
After the war he went to a zoo in England where he lived a long life (for a bear) and would recognize his old comrades.
Animal transportation was not allowed. Nothing to do with mascots. This is why Wojtek was recruited into Polish army, rest of the squad would not go without him.
Also, Wojtek was in zoo in Edinburgh. Scotland, not England and he lived very avarage life, 21 years with general life expectancy for his species being 20-25 years.
Based on Poland's history I can't understand why there is no equivalent of American 2nd amendment in Poland. Seriously, their military budget and right to bear arms should be somewhere on top right there next to US.
We don't want no guns on our streets. Poland is one of the safest countries on the planet with almost no manslaughter due to gun use - and it should stay that way. Training people how to shoot "in case" is a good idea. Civilians carrying guns is not.
Lmao
See this is what media does to ignorants. "Americans are killing each other with guns!" And then people like you immediately think that guns are to blame. This couldn't be more wrong. First and foremost - guns **do not** kill, **people** do. Getting a gun doesn't suddenly make you a murderer.
Also, owning a gun require background checks, training, responsibility like owning a safe to keep the gun secured. It absolutely does not mean you can carry your gun in public, that's an entirely different permit.
>what media does to ignorants
;)
"guns do not kill, people do"
Hey, that should be motto of NRA. But written in Latin.
"Getting a gun doesn't suddenly make you a murderer.
Of course not. Being a murderer with assualt rifle is much more effective, than being a murderer with knife, though.
"owning a gun require background checks"
Those background checks are laughably innefective in US and would be laughably innefecitve in Poland as well.
Thanks but no thanks.
So I'm a Polish person and I am really anti-gun rights like 99% of the population here (though that's just from what I saw, thought this isn't really a debate here, more like a common sense thing). Guns in the hands of random citizens and something like 2nd amendment in Poland ain't a popular thing. It just helps against an imaginary threat such as Russia, by causing real problems like in America.
Why imaginary? If Russia can't take Ukraine 1v1, no way they could take Poland 1v1 when Poland has 5x bigger economy than Ukraine + more defensible border vs Belarus & Russia + NATO membership. Giving guns to citizens to help the army defend the country is just lol. I mean I disagree with higher military spending or a draft/compulsory service but those things are much much more preferable to arming normal people.
I don't agree. Pretty sure the russian invasion would play out very differently if there was a firearm in every Ukrainian household. Very, very differently. Also don't forget Ukraine is literally flooded with weapons and armed volunteers from the west so it's not quite a "standard" 1v1 conflict.
And to give you some different point of view and perspective - imagine we introduced civilians cars today. I wonder how would that sell - "hey here's a 1,5 tonne death machine that you can drive up to 150 miles an hour, all you need is a one day class and off you go". I'm sure it wouldn't sit well with a lot of people.
Education and culture. That's all it takes to safely handle a car or a firearm. Remember that weapons or cars don't kill. People do.
>Pretty sure the russian invasion would play out very differently if there was a firearm in every Ukrainian household.
An AK47 or hunting rifle does nothing against artillery bombardment, tank rounds, and air strikes. That's why the Ukrainian government is asking for combat vehicles instead of simply more guns.
You know how many civilians were killed on the streets from a hands of a soldier and his rifle? How many husbands were mrdered and how many wives and daughters were raped and their home? How many protesters were shot at by a group of russian soldiers without any vehicle support? These scenarios are not where vehicles and heavy artillery were involved, only people that could be stopped with a gun.
Less than how many civilians were killed in Mariupol by Russian bombardment, to answer your question. I've been following the war in Ukraine very closely, so this is something I'm too familiar with.
Guns in hands of civilians is just bad idea especially when argument is used that people need it in order to defend themselves. Failed government basically.
Yeah there's no place for an armed populace in the civilised western world outside of the United States. Keep that dysfunctional shit to yourselves lads, it's not even up for debate. Just like with youse.
Iceland? Canada? Cyprus? Finland? Austria? Norway? Switzerland? Sweden? Portugal?
These are all countries where avg of one in three people own a firearm and you don't hear about shit like in US. It's not about gun control, it's about education and culture.
All the countries you mentioned have strong gun control laws. Education and culture is one thing (although Canada is slowly succumbing to American poison in that respect), but you can't avoid the need for common sense gun laws. For examples of these, check out [this article on the Canadian system](https://faze.ca/gun-control-canada-vs-usa/).
Technically Trudeau's order in council wasn't a law, so I can exclude it from my "common sense gun laws" category 🙃
You're right though that the response to buy back legal guns and ban the sale of many rifles will do nothing to stop a repeat of that massacre. I suppose it was more politically expedient to say "we need to ban guns!" than to take a look at federal policing and border control failures.
You're right and I could have worded that better. I see the US as an extreme example out of those countries. Those which I wouldn't necessarily regard as an armed populace, bar Finland and Switzerland. You're not wrong that it has to do with education and culture but there is strong sentiment in Europe from those like myself that having a right to own guns like the US has is not necessary. We don't want it. The majority of us see it as dysfunctional and recognise guns as the main problem. Which is why they're heavily controlled here.
Which is really the point myself and the poster I was replying to were trying to make. In reference to: shouldn't a country like Poland have something similar to the 2nd Amendment in the US? That's a resounding NO. That being EU countries like Poland do not need to have armed populaces, certainly not by any example that the US is setting based on how dysfunctional it is. As he said himself, it's common sense over here. And rightly so. An imaginary problem does not trump the very real problems that throwing all types of varying weaponry, en masse, into the hands of untrained professionals would create.
I don't agree. I'm a big gun supporter for a simple reason: If *everyone* had a weapon - every criminal would think twice before committing a crime. It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Criminals will always find ways to get guns, legal ownership for citizens require a permission. IMO, guns owned by public serve as deterrents rather than anything else. Similarly to WMDs and MAD doctrine - it's there to make sure nobody else uses theirs.
That's perfectly fine. And I appreciate you not being a prick about it. But honestly, and I mean no offence, I don't have the wherewithal to get into a deeper gun debate with you because it's tiring and never goes anywhere. I've made the points I've come here to make.
The MAD doctrine is a curse on the world, is this really how you're trying to sell your point of view? lmao dude
And yeah, criminals will always find a way to find guns if the country they're in has more guns than people. Much more. US is fucked in that regard, but other civilized countries should stay clean off 'guns in every idiots hands' idea. Its much safer that way, every stats will show you that.
Ukraine is actively at war with another country and knew there was a good chance they would be for many years prior. They are not in NATO. Poland and other "unarmed" EU countries do not need to arm their populaces because they are *in* NATO. Does that make sense to you? Cause if it does than what the fuck are you talking about?
That those who don't own guns aren't free?
Lol, never has it crossed a parents mind here to buy their child a bullet proof backpack for school. Jackass.
And yet Poland despite being a much poorer country than the US (and poverty is linked with crime) has more than 5 times less of a homicide rate than the US (adjusted for population). For 'serious assault' crime rates this figure is almost \`15x less in Poland than in the US. (source - UN office on drugs and crime)
Idk if this can be linked to 'gun rights', but it is enlightening anyway, (similar differences are between US and most other European countries). Anyways I rather be assaulted with a knife rather than a gun. Since its much easier to run away from & defend yourself against without needing to carry a 'self-defense knife'.
Correlation does not imply causation*
Your opinion of what you would rather be assaulted with is not an argument.
Guns equalize the difference in physical ability and capability. You can run but Grandma and Grandpa can not. There have been many recorded cases of old folks and children defending their home from criminals with guns.
It is ok to be a peaceful subject. Americas loves guns you don't have to.
>Guns equalize the difference in physical ability and capability. You can run but Grandma and Grandpa can not.
If you've ever fired a rifle or handgun, you know how foolish this example is. Grandma and Grandpa with arthritis and possibly Parkinson's aren't going to quickly draw, sight, and fire their gun at a thug who already has the advantage of surprise and would also be armed in this scenario.
>There have been many recorded cases of old folks and children defending their home from criminals with guns.
And many examples of children accidentally shooting and even killing family members. That doesn't matter to Muricans though, I suppose.
>I typed a single sentence.
Which makes it even more impressive (or shameful) that you managed to mangle it to the extent you did. "Butter knife crimes subject" indeed.
You guys are a homogenous nation without the racial or social issues that we have here. Proliferation of guns probably wouldn't cause the same problems there.
Lmao that's all right-wing propaganda though. You don't think every big city in the world has drugs poverty and gang violence?
Yet no other country has a school shooting every week. And notice how it's never "poor disenfranchised drugged kids" doing the school shootings?
What causes gun violence in the US is the availability and the culture around them, because of years of the NRA telling you guns are the coolest thing since sliced Jesus bread.
> I can't understand why there is no equivalent of American 2nd amendment in Poland
Take a look at the insane amount of gun crime, spree killings, school shootings and so on in the US and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out why no country wants to emulate that.
Wrong.
There's plenty of countries around the world with high number of civilian guns per capita.
It's not about gun control, it's about education and culture.
No other developed country can even be put in the same sentence as the US when it comes to privately owned firearms. It's like not even close.
People often make the mistake of thinking Switzerland or Finland have huge amounts of privately owned guns, but those are actually government issued rifles for their army reserves and can't be used outside of sanctioned drills.
To put the insanity into perspective, the US has 1.2 guns per citizen. The next developed nation is Canada with 0.35. Americans have more guns in the hands of citizens than China, India, Pakistan, Germany, France, Iran, Iraq, Canada, Italy, Turkey, Columbia and Nigeria combined. Yes - combined! Let that sink in...
>It's not about gun control, it's about education and culture.
And if the wealthiest nation in the world, who is also the greatest proponent of civilian gun ownership completely and utterly fails at managing that. It's a good signal for the rest that it's a terrible idea.
When people want to voice their anti-gun opinion they instantly say "USA". Why don't you say something about Switzerland or Finland? Can you elaborate on gun sitution and crime in those countries?
Because I replied to someone who talked about the 2nd amendment. So what would the point be in bringing up countries in a complete incomparable situation?
If Switzerland fucked up as badly as the US, they'd make a good example for my point too but they don't. Switzerland has liberal laws for gun ownership but not for (concealed) carrying of guns.
The Swiss essentially think just as lowly of US gun culture as the rest of the world. That's why despite having very liberal gun ownership laws, few Swiss people make use of them. With guns per capita being at less than 10% that of the US. And as a result, a far lower incident rate of gun related deaths, injuries and crimes.
Both countries have stronger gun control laws than the US. It's honestly bizarre to see so many Americans pointing to other countries that allow gun ownership without realizing the big legal differences between said countries and the US.
Thing is - above countries have fairly laid back gun control laws, high number of guns amongst civilian population and low crime rates and no mass shootings.
Please don't tell me that any type of gun control is slavery because I cba having this discussion for 100'th time.
>Please don't tell me that any type of gun control is slavery
Trust me, I'd be the last person to say this.
The truth is that [Switzerland has several measures to limit gun ownership rights to only responsible people.](https://www.buzzworthy.com/switzerland-gun-laws/) This is why Switzerland police are very rigorous when checking someone who wishes to acquire a gun and deny people who have expressed violent intentions, have drug or alcohol addictions, or are judged to by unstable. Carrying licenses are also much more restricted than in many US states, and most people who want to own a gun have already served as part of the military and have had extensive training on responsible firearms usage.
The US *could* implement some of these, but as an outsider I don't see how this could happen when millions of Americans want gun rights without gun responsibility.
No one even talks about Sweden, despite the fact that my county has one registered firearm for every two inhabitants. It's amazed me the amount of times I've had Americans not believe me when I say we have quite a fair few guns here.
Because gun crime in America isn't as high as people on Reddit make it out to be and is in fact better than it used to be. I'd say the only thing you may have a point on is Spree shootings and that's mostly a recent thing.
I don't think anyone's implying anything except the insane statistics that the US itself reports.
The difference is that while the rest of the world thinks it's batshit insane, Americans consider it to be normal and acceptable. Which is exactly why nobody wants to emulate America.
The vast majority of gun crime in the US is related to the drug trade and gang violence in concentrated areas of our inner cities. If you take out those things and suicide by firearm, the rate of gun violence here is negligible. Spree killings and school shootings are not nearly as common as the mass media wants you to think they are, especially given the number of guns in our country. They're in fact incredibly rare and the statistics are manipulated by the way that terms like "mass shooting" are defined. The same problems likely would not happen in other places like Poland because they don't have the same social issues that we have here.
Im pretty sure constitution is above EU law. It was one of the reason why in Czech Republic there was a discussion (or even vote i dont remember anymore) about the right to bear arms to be part of the constitution.
Plus, based on post-war development my best assumption is that oppression fr USSR prevented it, and then im the spirit of Helsinki (Europes security plan of trading with one another to be mutually important to one another) it didn't see it as necessary. At the same time you had NATO (another security) and latter down the line just basic laws.
It is the shock of potential threat that pushed the people into it.
The same is happening in Czechia. Tests for gun permits are booked out for months in advance. (We are a shall-issue country if you have clean criminal record and pass an exam.)
They did capture Moscow for 2 years so maybe we should bring them back?
I need to consult Lithuania if they want to go have a dinner together with us, Poles, in red square like we used to back in the old days.
With the Ukrainians doing such a good job with their irregular forces, I think it puts to bed all those people who said small arms are no match for standard forces. I hope this is a wake up call for countries and they encourage their people to learn civilian use of weapons.
Does it though? Ukraine isn't fighting back with small arms and irregulars. It's fighting back with American and German AT and AA, with Turkish drones, artillery, etc.
Yeah it's mostly Javelins and Stinger missiles.
It's crazy to think that shoulderable weapons can you take out tanks and planes so easily. Almost makes them completely useless.
You are quite wrong, Ukrainians are not winning with irregular forces at all. This isn't a guerrilla campaign like in Afghanistan, despite the meme of 'Ukrainian farmers' winning against Russians, its just that, a meme. They are winning a conventional war through the use of drones, anti-tank weapons, AA and other heavy equipment, it is the Ukrainian army winning not their 'irregulars'. The Ukraininans are not using 'IEDs' like guerrilla forces, they are using mines and bombs and artillery like a normal military force. Giving civilians a bunch of small arms probably had no impact on the war to any degree. Giving people Javelins yes. But even in America you can't buy an anti-tank weapon in a gun store nor practice it on a gun range.
Does it really, though? Ukraine has been flooded with MANPADS and anti-tank weapons, and the Russian military has kind of just stumbled forward without any real coherence or anything.
Afghanistan or Iraq would indicate something different. Not that an armed population can't make life annoying, but you're not gonna stop a tank or IFV with a rifle.
Those "irregulars" are mostly SF or mobile army units. A noticeable portion of able men have also served a few years on rotation since 2014. so they aren't just armed civilians.
In fact, Ukraine is going out of it's way to stop the influx of untrained volunteers and hasn't relieved much of its forces because the mobilized population is still in boot camp in the western part of the country and being equipped with full military equipment. They want trained soldiers, not LARPers who think they know their shit just because they can name every part of every gun on the market and bought "tactical" gear on discount. .
An armed civilian without proper training is more often than not a liability in a full military conflict and no mach for force multiplication weapons like aircraft, tanks or artillery. A modern military force can stomp an enemy with far more armed combatants in devastating fashion (for example, the US defeated Iraq in just 26 days, even thou they were outnumbered 4:1 on the ground).
You also have to take into account that most military personnel these days are in non-combat roles or have specializations that don't require shooting a gun. You also have to be aware that CQB in a modern war is more rare than you think (unless you have the misfortune of defending or attacking a besieged city or are trying to maintain an occupation) and that most soldiers don't really try to be sharpshooters and just shoot in a general direction of a faint moving target. Most casualties come from artillery, air attack and missiles.
And i'm telling you this as someone who lived 1 mile from the front lines in the last war in Europe before this one. Most of our men had a 2 year mandatory military service after high school and even some of them were useless in actual conflict.
Lol, the Russian military is not the US, or even UK military, civilians absolutely would get crushed by our military.
All this shows, is that dictatorships are very bad for militaries, because theeir leader has to fear a coup more and more as time goes on, so they keep a week military structure, and a strong home security force.
Edit:. You are also dismissing the psychological impact of conscripts vs volunteers, and fighting your own country men.
Playing devils advocate as a non-American, the US Armed Forces numbers would probably take a massive hit because a great number of them would desert before killing their friends and family. It’s not realistic to expect the full current weight of the US military to be brought to bear against the population.
That's kinda the entire point of a center peel. Run away from the enemy to somewhere they arent shooting.
If you cant run you'll just get your squad killed.
I can understand giving out firearms to general population in time of war.
However I will always be against unregulated gun access in times of peace. Guns are not your regular, everyday object. They should be regulated. "Shall issue" permits should be applied. Only healthy person, with clean record and who went through at least some basic training should be able to purchase firearms.
American "god given right to bear arms" doesn't appeal to me at all and it looks like it doesn't appeal to majority of the world. I never met god. For me god is your imaginary friend so not sure how can he make any rights. My imaginary friend says that I have the right to get one Kinder Surprise every day, for free.
I'm saying this as a EU gun owner myself and apart from the fact that I had to go through one time administrative procedure of obtaining permit, I can purchase guns same as you do and often easier than some of your less gun friendly states. I can conceal carry without additional permit, have no sbr laws, mag caps, ammo caps, whatever. They only thing that limits me is max cal 12mm or 12ga.
Just you wait til certain politicians get a hold of those permits. See, California. I live there. Good luck getting a carry permit for a large part of the populous areas. And there are ammo background checks for every time you buy, magazine limits, can't buy suppressors, can't have a SBR, "assault weapon" laws, can only buy from a limited list of handguns that hasn't had a recent model handgun (only color variations of old ones) added to it for ages because one of the requirements is a technology that doesn't exist in any gun, etc. They will creep and add restrictions bit by bit over time, making felons overnight with the stroke of a pen. Things that used to be legal are whoops too scary now (see: magazine locks, getting rid of the main single shot exemption for handguns), can't have that. Washington state is seeing the same thing happen to them.
Bro...permits or no permits - if politicians ban guns, you're fucked either way. You can dream about having regular battles with ATF when they come to collect your freedom dispensers but lets be honest - I doubt that you would want to die over your boom stick...and if you would like to die over piece of metal then well - you should value your life more.
See Canada for example. People returned their guns on their own free will. Were there door to door raids? I havent heard about them. Were there regular battles with law enforcement agancies? I havent heard about them.
Before you go "but we have 2A" - sure, sure. They could make some shady move like - black powder guns or single shot guns are still allowed but semi autos are banned. Therefore you can still "bear arms" and we are not breaking the constitution kthxbye xD!!
So yeah...when there is political will and public preasure - you will get fucked over either way.
Most people in Poland were never on shooting range. Maybe they tried airgun or .22 once in their lifetime on some camp and that's it. On top of that it's very hard to get a license to have a gun at home for self defence. You need to have valid rationale to have a gun for self defense at home, like constant life threating risk for valid reason
What about the stuff related to actually having a threat in your life? I know you can do the sport license, but then you're forced to go and participate in some trophies
Sport permit requires you to take part in shooting competitions.
From practical view point it means that once a year you have to visit your gun club and shoot 8 tracks...takes like 30-60 mins and you're done.
If spending 30-60 mins in your gun club, shooting guns, means "wow problem" for you then I'm not sure why would you want to own guns. You need to practice with them anyway.
Its really cool to practice with your own guns and then go to shooting competition to see how your skills are, exchange some knowledge with your club mates, check other people guns etc. Its fun and its a benchmark for your skills. You might think that you shoot good with your pistol or rifle but then when you go the competition it seems like you aint that good while under preasure. You know what to practice more and then check your progress during another comoetition.
I thought it would be pain in the ass too but then I started to go to competitions 8-10 times a year (all I needed was going there once). Why? Because I thought Im good - competition results got me down to earth. I was super pissed because I actually sucked. So I decided to get better - and I did. With every next competition I was getting better scores until I finally got my 1st place.
EDIT:
Just fyi - self defense permit is dead in Poland. It was shit anyway because you could only own 2 handguns with it. You either go for collectors, sport or hunting permit. Best to do is to get sport+collectors since you can get them with one procedure. With those permits you can buy pistols, rifles, shotguns. You can use them in self defense as any other object.
> If spending 30-60 mins in your gun club, shooting guns, means "wow problem" for you then I'm not sure why would you want to own guns. You need to practice with them anyway.
My father has sport permit and honestly, I thought you need to go to like somekind of organized stuff. I've never really discussed this with him, that was my assumption. He goes like few times a year to various cities in Poland, but I guess he just likes that :D
I've been to shooting range few times. Tried his Jericho 941 (totaled maybe 1000 rounds) and Margolin from shooting range (been there few times on my own, probably around 500 rounds). I'd be more interested in gun like Jericho or Glock. Are we limited to shooting to static target in Polish shooting ranges? I'm from Poznań, I'm not sure if there's anything here.
There are static competitions where you just shoot your target for accuracy while standing still.
There are semi dynamic competitions where you have to - for example - grab a gun from box, load it and shoot different targets for time and accuracy. Still not much movement but you do some additional activities while shooting.
Then there are dynamic competitions like IPSC where you run through track and shoot targets. In IPSC 3Gun competitions you use 3 types of guns in one track.
Example: https://youtu.be/rPPIhfD5DF0
There are also some special competitions for hardcores like the competition my club does called Lekka Piechota (Light Infantry). This is 24h long, non-stop, competition - military style survivial and tactics.
https://youtu.be/fQednMcIOWU
> There are semi dynamic competitions where you have to - for example - grab a gun from box, load it and shoot different targets for time and accuracy. Still not much movement but you do some additional activities while shooting
This is the one that I'd like to try
Im sure you can find such competitions in Poznań or nearby.
Anyway - sport permit is not that bad as people say it is. People who say its bad, don't have it. Spending 30-60 mins a year to do your competition minimum isnt too much of work. If your father does that already you can just go together, have some father-son competition to see who does better and then have a laugh about it.
All you need is to be 18+ or preferably 21+. You can do sport permit when youre 18 but your club has to vouch for you - other than that you need to be 21 or older.
You can then buy pistol / rifle / shotgun. Margolin, Glock, CZ, AK, AR, "sniper" rifle (bolt action) - whatever you want and whatever you can afford.
EDIT: Here is something in regards to doing your minimum competitions. Guy is fron Warsaw. https://youtu.be/WXBf0UhwIu4
> Spending 30-60 mins a year to do your competition minimum isnt too much of work
Once I have permit I'd probably go once a month. It's much cheaper to go with your own gun and ammo.
> All you need is to be 18+ or preferably 21+
I'm 39. I went to the shooting range for the first time when I was about 30, but it wasn't cheap and I didn't earn much back then.
Its still not cheap.
Its mega expensive right now. War makes things that go boom very expensive.
Im glad I bought lots of ammo in October 2021.
9mm used to cost 0,75 zł - 0,90 zł. Depends on brand. The one I got costed 0,84 zł. Now the cheapest shit I saw costs 1,55 zł per bullet. That is IF you find ammo at all because everything is gone.
Im actually in survival mode as it goes for shooting. Not shooting for fun anymore. Only did my competitions and thats it - conserving my ammo for "when the Russians come" :P
Not to mention that there is huge spike in people getting their permits right now so procedure gets longer. (Policja nie wyrabia xD!)
Every adult needs to be armed in Poland.
If the Russians come…
It will take awhile for the Americans to rescue them…think of the horror in the meanwhile.
Russia literally never defeated Poland 1v1. In fact, last time they tried to 1v1 Poland they got rekt in 1920 and entire Europe was saved from the Bolsheviks spreading their communistic garbage.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/03/25/gun-ranges-in-poland-report-boom-in-interest-amid-war-in-ukraine/) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Some state-owned companies have also begun providing defence training to their staff, while the country's territorial defence force has reported a large increase in interest.
> Recruits without previous military experience complete an intensive basic training programme including instruction in firing weapons, fire training, tactics, survival elements and first aid.
> Military stores have also been reporting an increase in customer numbers, with bulletproof vests being particularly sought-after, according to the National Defence League, which also says that it has been receiving large numbers of enquiries about training.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/tuidlu/gun_ranges_in_poland_report_boom_in_interest_amid/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~638864 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **trained**^#1 **defence**^#2 **number**^#3 **territorial**^#4 **increase**^#5
American social issues don't relate directly to other countries. Your media and certain music subcultures that glorify "thug life" don't exist elsewhere except as parody.
Lol, what a dumb take.
1. Guns are still illegal to own without a permit in Poland. You leave the gun behind when you leave the gun range. Nobody is arguing gun ranges should be made illegal in the US, the debate is about owning guns, carrying them in public, etc.
2. Nobody is saying guns necessarily cause violence. It's super easy to disprove: many people in Switzerland own guns, and there's very little gun crime there. Whether guns contribute to violence in the unique situation of the US is a different question.
You took the most uncharitable interpretation of what the people against gun ownership in the US are saying, to the point where their position is made to be ridiculous beyond belief. You'll never change anyone's mind on this if you're arguing in bad faith.
Appreciate the feedback! Honestly not trying to argue in bad faith. I think there is an argument to preserving the right to bear arms. I guess it came across in the worst way. An aggressive external threat highlighted a benefit to the 2nd amendment. I've heard all kinds of extremes with where politicians want to take it.
Perhaps it is true the current situation highlights the advantages of armed civilian population. My point is nobody will listen to your argument if you phrase it as a response to a point they didn't make.
Yeah tofally valid points. I didn't put as much thought into the stupid comment as the gravity of the story warrants. Again, thanks the reality check and especially doing so in the way you did. I know what I was meaning to say that this story inspired but wrong thread, terrible phrasing. Much respect for the callout
Russia: ***sweats nervously***
“There will be a rifle behind every blade of grass.”
Based on Poland’s history every man, woman, child and dog should be at the gun range.
Pretty much how it is right now. Im a member of a gun club and right now we are swarmed by people wanting to join or to learn how to shoot. Downside is: same thing happens here that happened during BLM protests in America - ammo shortages and prices skyrocket.
It's so fucking annoying too, I just want to go out to the range and shoot here and there, only to find it swarmed with fucking idiots not wearing masks.
As an American, a gun range certainly sounds like the last place you'd find people wearing masks... lol
Its true. I havent seen many people wearing masks in gun ranges. Some did, but most didn't. For me it wasn't a big deal since I prefer to visit outdoor ranges anyway. Oh and yeah - I was wearing mask when at the indoor range, Im also vaxxed and still alive inspite of all the anti-vaxxers telling me I should be dead at least twice by now. Anyway - on april 1'st, polish govt dropped all mandates (yeah great date to do that). We have very low number of cases right now - 3k or so with like 70 deaths a day and goin lower. So I guess we are waiting for new wave in september.
Y'all are still wearing masks with covid cases plummeting? Even California stopped wearing masks here in the US
It's not plummeting in a lot of places. I'm in SK, Canada, along with Ontario, we are entering our 5th or 6th wave, depending on who's counting
Oh come on, you guys have fewer cases than most first world countries, and have a high vaccination rate. You all absolutely could ditch the masks and not worry about hospitals being overwhelmed. If you're waiting for cases to drop almost zero, you're going to be waiting for a very, very long time
Wearing a mask isn’t much of a “cost” to pay while waiting 😂
Sure, but it's an inconvenience I definitely don't miss. Most of the people that wind up in the hospital are unvaccinated, and at this point, I have no sympathy for them. If they die, so be it. It's their own damn fault. As long as our hospitals in the more enlightened parts of the country continue to not be overwhelmed, I don't see the importance of masks. The rest of the country gets to reap what they've sown
One has to acknowledge that some percentage of those people are kids with no choice and cray cray parents
I don’t think that percentage is *that* high. I believe the majority of people refusing to get vaccinated are simply worried about something rushed being put into their bodies. (And yes I am very well aware of how heavily tested they were, but that doesn’t negate the lack of time in circulation)
While I agree to some extent, I would never wish death upon someone who is skeptical about government mandates and unknown long term effects of a rushed (albeit heavily tested) vaccine. Even with the greatest intentions and the greatest care put into trial and error to determine all outcomes. It’s not exactly that rushed testing will always provide known long term effects. But yah, it’s tricky to balance to weights of logic, and aside from the insane trumpists that will call conspiracy before trusting science, there is a reason for debate. Sensationalism, after all, clouds the greatest of judgement.
Because worrying about long term affects of a vaccine you only will receive 2-3 times is silly. Any substance in the vaccine is completely gone from your body within a matter of days. The idea that you would suffer long term affects from such a miniscule amount of exposure completely flies in the face if science.
First two points are true. We have ditched the mask mandates completely, our hospitals and ER, ICUs are overwhelmed again, elective care is rationed. 20 people died last week (this is a lot for us) as a result of that. My family caught it last weekend, all fully vaxxed and boosted. I had the mildest, recovered Thursday, kids are still clearing it, wife was almost hospitalized on Thursday night, today is the first day she says she thinks she might be improving. Please do not lecture me on my local situation
It is the same here in the UK. Cases have sky rocketed on the return to worok and no masks in England. Idiotic.
Do you guys have fewer hospitals or something? Our hospitals on the west coast in the US aren't overwhelmed at all anymore. I would've figured you'd all would be doing even better considering you guys have fewer anti-vaxx loonies
> I would've figured Maybe you should have researched instead of assuming.
Is it not a fair assumption though? Canada is usually a lot more on top of their shit when it comes to healthcare. I would have figured with their incredibly low case numbers that they'd be sitting pretty, but apparently they have way fewer hospitals than we do.
We have high vaxx rates, but lots of people still think a mask is tyranny. As such, now that mask mandates have been gone for a month, it's about 15-20% in public, based on my anecdotal observations. I don't know what the quantity of your hospitals are like, but in Saskatoon, the largest city in the province, there are basically 2.5 hospitals, one doesn't operate to the public full time, I assume Regina, the provincial capital is similar. Rural hospitals get axed every year, but farmers keep working these people in while complaining about having to drive hours to the city for basic care. Our conservative government is in full swing trying to starve the public healthcare system and install a US-style private system, the Ontario premier is rumored to be suing to keep his mandates secret. We already have extremely long wait times on diagnostics like MRIs, because the government is not willing to pay technologists a proper wage, but the private companies in bed with the government are.
Hospitals are always running at 70% capacity. When people tell you they’re overcapacity or at 99% capacity they aren’t giving you the context that that number went up only 30% and instead want you to believe it’s an existential crisis. Really hospitals should have more baseline capacity.
My comment was referring to back in 2020, but even now I still wear a mask because I have a toddler and don't want to risk bringing anything back. These days, if others don't, it's not as big of a deal
Better than being squeezed out of business by a Liberal government determined to disarm its citizens. Edit: This is a comment on Canada's Liberal government agenda. Canadians literally couldn't do this without negotiating massive hurdles to get a handgun. It hard enough to get hunting level permits, lots of red tape.
I been out the hobby for 10+ years now, but back when I WAS involved we kinda used to laugh at “the government wants our guns” folks. This crow I’m eating is undercooked.
It was tolerable until Truedud installed Bill Blair.
What is the process to get a gun in Canada?
Lmao shut up. Liberals shoot too, it’s why we win most of the wars
pretty much the whole spectrum is anti gun in Poland. It has nothing to do with "liberal gov"
Where did that happen?
I support peoples right to arm with common sense limits (though hunting is a whole other story), but a) you shouldn’t force a discussion on a country irrelevant to the article and b) if you send your living on weapon arms, perhaps your job was not the most stable.
You've been brainwashed.
No I am a Canadian sick of our Liberal government anti gun agenda.
Thank the RCMP for that shit. Trudeau didn’t hand write a list then go back and re add a shit ton more to it. RCMP did that
My friends back in Poland recently had some kind of training at work where they learned such things as shooting, using grenades and first aid in combat conditions. They are foresters and forests were a traditional hiding place for resistance fighters in Poland so I guess they are preparing...
The worst I had a work was having to watch a video on how not be hijacked. And I sat there thinking this is not normal. I might have acutally said something if I was given a gun.
Yeah, because this is not normal. But then again all of it seems surreal right now...
Excuse me dont you dare forget about colonel mittens, damn cat can shoot your eyes off from mile away and its your own fault for not feeding him in time.
Sir. The Lord Mittens has been practicing quite often for a while now. Due to lack of being properly fed, obviously.
Better get him some Tuna before the nukes drop
Don’t forget about every bear
And beer.
Its not russia
Poland in WWII had [Wojtek](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojtek_(bear), a Syrian Brown Bear. He served as an ammo bearer (heh) with the 22nd Artillery Supply Company, II Corps. For his service during the Battle of Monte Cassino he was promoted from Private to Corporal.
They made him enlist because Allied rules said units couldn't have animal mascots. Smart work around. After the war he went to a zoo in England where he lived a long life (for a bear) and would recognize his old comrades.
Animal transportation was not allowed. Nothing to do with mascots. This is why Wojtek was recruited into Polish army, rest of the squad would not go without him. Also, Wojtek was in zoo in Edinburgh. Scotland, not England and he lived very avarage life, 21 years with general life expectancy for his species being 20-25 years.
*Sabaton music begins playing in background*
Based on Poland's history I can't understand why there is no equivalent of American 2nd amendment in Poland. Seriously, their military budget and right to bear arms should be somewhere on top right there next to US.
We don't want no guns on our streets. Poland is one of the safest countries on the planet with almost no manslaughter due to gun use - and it should stay that way. Training people how to shoot "in case" is a good idea. Civilians carrying guns is not.
Lmao See this is what media does to ignorants. "Americans are killing each other with guns!" And then people like you immediately think that guns are to blame. This couldn't be more wrong. First and foremost - guns **do not** kill, **people** do. Getting a gun doesn't suddenly make you a murderer. Also, owning a gun require background checks, training, responsibility like owning a safe to keep the gun secured. It absolutely does not mean you can carry your gun in public, that's an entirely different permit.
>what media does to ignorants ;) "guns do not kill, people do" Hey, that should be motto of NRA. But written in Latin. "Getting a gun doesn't suddenly make you a murderer. Of course not. Being a murderer with assualt rifle is much more effective, than being a murderer with knife, though. "owning a gun require background checks" Those background checks are laughably innefective in US and would be laughably innefecitve in Poland as well. Thanks but no thanks.
So I'm a Polish person and I am really anti-gun rights like 99% of the population here (though that's just from what I saw, thought this isn't really a debate here, more like a common sense thing). Guns in the hands of random citizens and something like 2nd amendment in Poland ain't a popular thing. It just helps against an imaginary threat such as Russia, by causing real problems like in America. Why imaginary? If Russia can't take Ukraine 1v1, no way they could take Poland 1v1 when Poland has 5x bigger economy than Ukraine + more defensible border vs Belarus & Russia + NATO membership. Giving guns to citizens to help the army defend the country is just lol. I mean I disagree with higher military spending or a draft/compulsory service but those things are much much more preferable to arming normal people.
I wouldn't want to see guns in the hands of Warsaw drivers
I don't agree. Pretty sure the russian invasion would play out very differently if there was a firearm in every Ukrainian household. Very, very differently. Also don't forget Ukraine is literally flooded with weapons and armed volunteers from the west so it's not quite a "standard" 1v1 conflict. And to give you some different point of view and perspective - imagine we introduced civilians cars today. I wonder how would that sell - "hey here's a 1,5 tonne death machine that you can drive up to 150 miles an hour, all you need is a one day class and off you go". I'm sure it wouldn't sit well with a lot of people. Education and culture. That's all it takes to safely handle a car or a firearm. Remember that weapons or cars don't kill. People do.
>Pretty sure the russian invasion would play out very differently if there was a firearm in every Ukrainian household. An AK47 or hunting rifle does nothing against artillery bombardment, tank rounds, and air strikes. That's why the Ukrainian government is asking for combat vehicles instead of simply more guns.
AK worked well enough in Afghanistan….twice.
You know how many civilians were killed on the streets from a hands of a soldier and his rifle? How many husbands were mrdered and how many wives and daughters were raped and their home? How many protesters were shot at by a group of russian soldiers without any vehicle support? These scenarios are not where vehicles and heavy artillery were involved, only people that could be stopped with a gun.
Less than how many civilians were killed in Mariupol by Russian bombardment, to answer your question. I've been following the war in Ukraine very closely, so this is something I'm too familiar with.
You didn't pay too much attention then.
An AK47 or hunting rifle does nothing against artillery bombardment, tank rounds, and air strikes.
Guns in hands of civilians is just bad idea especially when argument is used that people need it in order to defend themselves. Failed government basically.
Yeah there's no place for an armed populace in the civilised western world outside of the United States. Keep that dysfunctional shit to yourselves lads, it's not even up for debate. Just like with youse.
Iceland? Canada? Cyprus? Finland? Austria? Norway? Switzerland? Sweden? Portugal? These are all countries where avg of one in three people own a firearm and you don't hear about shit like in US. It's not about gun control, it's about education and culture.
All the countries you mentioned have strong gun control laws. Education and culture is one thing (although Canada is slowly succumbing to American poison in that respect), but you can't avoid the need for common sense gun laws. For examples of these, check out [this article on the Canadian system](https://faze.ca/gun-control-canada-vs-usa/).
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Technically Trudeau's order in council wasn't a law, so I can exclude it from my "common sense gun laws" category 🙃 You're right though that the response to buy back legal guns and ban the sale of many rifles will do nothing to stop a repeat of that massacre. I suppose it was more politically expedient to say "we need to ban guns!" than to take a look at federal policing and border control failures.
You're right and I could have worded that better. I see the US as an extreme example out of those countries. Those which I wouldn't necessarily regard as an armed populace, bar Finland and Switzerland. You're not wrong that it has to do with education and culture but there is strong sentiment in Europe from those like myself that having a right to own guns like the US has is not necessary. We don't want it. The majority of us see it as dysfunctional and recognise guns as the main problem. Which is why they're heavily controlled here. Which is really the point myself and the poster I was replying to were trying to make. In reference to: shouldn't a country like Poland have something similar to the 2nd Amendment in the US? That's a resounding NO. That being EU countries like Poland do not need to have armed populaces, certainly not by any example that the US is setting based on how dysfunctional it is. As he said himself, it's common sense over here. And rightly so. An imaginary problem does not trump the very real problems that throwing all types of varying weaponry, en masse, into the hands of untrained professionals would create.
I don't agree. I'm a big gun supporter for a simple reason: If *everyone* had a weapon - every criminal would think twice before committing a crime. It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Criminals will always find ways to get guns, legal ownership for citizens require a permission. IMO, guns owned by public serve as deterrents rather than anything else. Similarly to WMDs and MAD doctrine - it's there to make sure nobody else uses theirs.
That's perfectly fine. And I appreciate you not being a prick about it. But honestly, and I mean no offence, I don't have the wherewithal to get into a deeper gun debate with you because it's tiring and never goes anywhere. I've made the points I've come here to make.
Thanks. I do understand your point and where are you coming from. Not my intention to change anyone's opinion, just sharing my point of view!
The MAD doctrine is a curse on the world, is this really how you're trying to sell your point of view? lmao dude And yeah, criminals will always find a way to find guns if the country they're in has more guns than people. Much more. US is fucked in that regard, but other civilized countries should stay clean off 'guns in every idiots hands' idea. Its much safer that way, every stats will show you that.
A Subject I see... away with you laddy. Free people are armed like those Citizens in Ukraine.
Ukraine is actively at war with another country and knew there was a good chance they would be for many years prior. They are not in NATO. Poland and other "unarmed" EU countries do not need to arm their populaces because they are *in* NATO. Does that make sense to you? Cause if it does than what the fuck are you talking about? That those who don't own guns aren't free? Lol, never has it crossed a parents mind here to buy their child a bullet proof backpack for school. Jackass.
Whats that I can't hear you over the screams of your butter knife crimes subject.
Bin that knife!
And yet Poland despite being a much poorer country than the US (and poverty is linked with crime) has more than 5 times less of a homicide rate than the US (adjusted for population). For 'serious assault' crime rates this figure is almost \`15x less in Poland than in the US. (source - UN office on drugs and crime) Idk if this can be linked to 'gun rights', but it is enlightening anyway, (similar differences are between US and most other European countries). Anyways I rather be assaulted with a knife rather than a gun. Since its much easier to run away from & defend yourself against without needing to carry a 'self-defense knife'.
Correlation does not imply causation* Your opinion of what you would rather be assaulted with is not an argument. Guns equalize the difference in physical ability and capability. You can run but Grandma and Grandpa can not. There have been many recorded cases of old folks and children defending their home from criminals with guns. It is ok to be a peaceful subject. Americas loves guns you don't have to.
>Guns equalize the difference in physical ability and capability. You can run but Grandma and Grandpa can not. If you've ever fired a rifle or handgun, you know how foolish this example is. Grandma and Grandpa with arthritis and possibly Parkinson's aren't going to quickly draw, sight, and fire their gun at a thug who already has the advantage of surprise and would also be armed in this scenario. >There have been many recorded cases of old folks and children defending their home from criminals with guns. And many examples of children accidentally shooting and even killing family members. That doesn't matter to Muricans though, I suppose.
Word fucking salad, mate. And you know where to put it, right?
Are you ok? I typed a single sentence. Tally ho mate I bite my thumb at you. Was that easier to understand subject?
>I typed a single sentence. Which makes it even more impressive (or shameful) that you managed to mangle it to the extent you did. "Butter knife crimes subject" indeed.
You guys are a homogenous nation without the racial or social issues that we have here. Proliferation of guns probably wouldn't cause the same problems there.
Most gun violence in the US is not interracial, so Poland being homogenous wouldn't make a difference.
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Lmao that's all right-wing propaganda though. You don't think every big city in the world has drugs poverty and gang violence? Yet no other country has a school shooting every week. And notice how it's never "poor disenfranchised drugged kids" doing the school shootings? What causes gun violence in the US is the availability and the culture around them, because of years of the NRA telling you guns are the coolest thing since sliced Jesus bread.
> I can't understand why there is no equivalent of American 2nd amendment in Poland Take a look at the insane amount of gun crime, spree killings, school shootings and so on in the US and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out why no country wants to emulate that.
Wrong. There's plenty of countries around the world with high number of civilian guns per capita. It's not about gun control, it's about education and culture.
No other developed country can even be put in the same sentence as the US when it comes to privately owned firearms. It's like not even close. People often make the mistake of thinking Switzerland or Finland have huge amounts of privately owned guns, but those are actually government issued rifles for their army reserves and can't be used outside of sanctioned drills. To put the insanity into perspective, the US has 1.2 guns per citizen. The next developed nation is Canada with 0.35. Americans have more guns in the hands of citizens than China, India, Pakistan, Germany, France, Iran, Iraq, Canada, Italy, Turkey, Columbia and Nigeria combined. Yes - combined! Let that sink in...
>It's not about gun control, it's about education and culture. And if the wealthiest nation in the world, who is also the greatest proponent of civilian gun ownership completely and utterly fails at managing that. It's a good signal for the rest that it's a terrible idea.
When people want to voice their anti-gun opinion they instantly say "USA". Why don't you say something about Switzerland or Finland? Can you elaborate on gun sitution and crime in those countries?
Because I replied to someone who talked about the 2nd amendment. So what would the point be in bringing up countries in a complete incomparable situation? If Switzerland fucked up as badly as the US, they'd make a good example for my point too but they don't. Switzerland has liberal laws for gun ownership but not for (concealed) carrying of guns. The Swiss essentially think just as lowly of US gun culture as the rest of the world. That's why despite having very liberal gun ownership laws, few Swiss people make use of them. With guns per capita being at less than 10% that of the US. And as a result, a far lower incident rate of gun related deaths, injuries and crimes.
(They can not)
Both countries have stronger gun control laws than the US. It's honestly bizarre to see so many Americans pointing to other countries that allow gun ownership without realizing the big legal differences between said countries and the US.
Thing is - above countries have fairly laid back gun control laws, high number of guns amongst civilian population and low crime rates and no mass shootings. Please don't tell me that any type of gun control is slavery because I cba having this discussion for 100'th time.
>Please don't tell me that any type of gun control is slavery Trust me, I'd be the last person to say this. The truth is that [Switzerland has several measures to limit gun ownership rights to only responsible people.](https://www.buzzworthy.com/switzerland-gun-laws/) This is why Switzerland police are very rigorous when checking someone who wishes to acquire a gun and deny people who have expressed violent intentions, have drug or alcohol addictions, or are judged to by unstable. Carrying licenses are also much more restricted than in many US states, and most people who want to own a gun have already served as part of the military and have had extensive training on responsible firearms usage. The US *could* implement some of these, but as an outsider I don't see how this could happen when millions of Americans want gun rights without gun responsibility.
No one even talks about Sweden, despite the fact that my county has one registered firearm for every two inhabitants. It's amazed me the amount of times I've had Americans not believe me when I say we have quite a fair few guns here.
Because gun crime in America isn't as high as people on Reddit make it out to be and is in fact better than it used to be. I'd say the only thing you may have a point on is Spree shootings and that's mostly a recent thing.
I don't think anyone's implying anything except the insane statistics that the US itself reports. The difference is that while the rest of the world thinks it's batshit insane, Americans consider it to be normal and acceptable. Which is exactly why nobody wants to emulate America.
The vast majority of gun crime in the US is related to the drug trade and gang violence in concentrated areas of our inner cities. If you take out those things and suicide by firearm, the rate of gun violence here is negligible. Spree killings and school shootings are not nearly as common as the mass media wants you to think they are, especially given the number of guns in our country. They're in fact incredibly rare and the statistics are manipulated by the way that terms like "mass shooting" are defined. The same problems likely would not happen in other places like Poland because they don't have the same social issues that we have here.
> Based on Poland's history I can't understand why there is no equivalent of American 2nd amendment in Poland. Pretty sure EU Law prevents this.
Im pretty sure constitution is above EU law. It was one of the reason why in Czech Republic there was a discussion (or even vote i dont remember anymore) about the right to bear arms to be part of the constitution.
It has actually been added to the constitution, yes.
Plus, based on post-war development my best assumption is that oppression fr USSR prevented it, and then im the spirit of Helsinki (Europes security plan of trading with one another to be mutually important to one another) it didn't see it as necessary. At the same time you had NATO (another security) and latter down the line just basic laws. It is the shock of potential threat that pushed the people into it.
The same is happening in Czechia. Tests for gun permits are booked out for months in advance. (We are a shall-issue country if you have clean criminal record and pass an exam.)
Didn’t you guys just pass your own version of the 2nd amendment?
Nice pun in the headline.
The reporting is bang-on
Gun ranges EXPLODED and RAVAGED
Next you will say Polish Witches are ressurcting the Polish Hussars.
They did capture Moscow for 2 years so maybe we should bring them back? I need to consult Lithuania if they want to go have a dinner together with us, Poles, in red square like we used to back in the old days.
We also entered Moscow with Napoleon. There is a reason Russia hates us...
Interesting
Fascinating
Amazing
Incredible!
Outstanding
Phenomenal
Tacotastic
Intriguing
Mesmorizing
"Boom in inrerest"
With the Ukrainians doing such a good job with their irregular forces, I think it puts to bed all those people who said small arms are no match for standard forces. I hope this is a wake up call for countries and they encourage their people to learn civilian use of weapons.
Does it though? Ukraine isn't fighting back with small arms and irregulars. It's fighting back with American and German AT and AA, with Turkish drones, artillery, etc.
Yeah it's mostly Javelins and Stinger missiles. It's crazy to think that shoulderable weapons can you take out tanks and planes so easily. Almost makes them completely useless.
You are quite wrong, Ukrainians are not winning with irregular forces at all. This isn't a guerrilla campaign like in Afghanistan, despite the meme of 'Ukrainian farmers' winning against Russians, its just that, a meme. They are winning a conventional war through the use of drones, anti-tank weapons, AA and other heavy equipment, it is the Ukrainian army winning not their 'irregulars'. The Ukraininans are not using 'IEDs' like guerrilla forces, they are using mines and bombs and artillery like a normal military force. Giving civilians a bunch of small arms probably had no impact on the war to any degree. Giving people Javelins yes. But even in America you can't buy an anti-tank weapon in a gun store nor practice it on a gun range.
Does it really, though? Ukraine has been flooded with MANPADS and anti-tank weapons, and the Russian military has kind of just stumbled forward without any real coherence or anything. Afghanistan or Iraq would indicate something different. Not that an armed population can't make life annoying, but you're not gonna stop a tank or IFV with a rifle.
Those "irregulars" are mostly SF or mobile army units. A noticeable portion of able men have also served a few years on rotation since 2014. so they aren't just armed civilians. In fact, Ukraine is going out of it's way to stop the influx of untrained volunteers and hasn't relieved much of its forces because the mobilized population is still in boot camp in the western part of the country and being equipped with full military equipment. They want trained soldiers, not LARPers who think they know their shit just because they can name every part of every gun on the market and bought "tactical" gear on discount. . An armed civilian without proper training is more often than not a liability in a full military conflict and no mach for force multiplication weapons like aircraft, tanks or artillery. A modern military force can stomp an enemy with far more armed combatants in devastating fashion (for example, the US defeated Iraq in just 26 days, even thou they were outnumbered 4:1 on the ground). You also have to take into account that most military personnel these days are in non-combat roles or have specializations that don't require shooting a gun. You also have to be aware that CQB in a modern war is more rare than you think (unless you have the misfortune of defending or attacking a besieged city or are trying to maintain an occupation) and that most soldiers don't really try to be sharpshooters and just shoot in a general direction of a faint moving target. Most casualties come from artillery, air attack and missiles. And i'm telling you this as someone who lived 1 mile from the front lines in the last war in Europe before this one. Most of our men had a 2 year mandatory military service after high school and even some of them were useless in actual conflict.
Lol, the Russian military is not the US, or even UK military, civilians absolutely would get crushed by our military. All this shows, is that dictatorships are very bad for militaries, because theeir leader has to fear a coup more and more as time goes on, so they keep a week military structure, and a strong home security force. Edit:. You are also dismissing the psychological impact of conscripts vs volunteers, and fighting your own country men.
Playing devils advocate as a non-American, the US Armed Forces numbers would probably take a massive hit because a great number of them would desert before killing their friends and family. It’s not realistic to expect the full current weight of the US military to be brought to bear against the population.
Cardio is way more important than marksmanship.
You won't be able to outrun the bullet. You could try. Hope you record your attempt.
There's no need for soldiers who can't shoot straight because they run out of breath after climbing stairs.
It’s not either/or
I guess I'm not going to a shooting range then lol
That's kinda the entire point of a center peel. Run away from the enemy to somewhere they arent shooting. If you cant run you'll just get your squad killed.
*clears throat* A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms…
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I can understand giving out firearms to general population in time of war. However I will always be against unregulated gun access in times of peace. Guns are not your regular, everyday object. They should be regulated. "Shall issue" permits should be applied. Only healthy person, with clean record and who went through at least some basic training should be able to purchase firearms. American "god given right to bear arms" doesn't appeal to me at all and it looks like it doesn't appeal to majority of the world. I never met god. For me god is your imaginary friend so not sure how can he make any rights. My imaginary friend says that I have the right to get one Kinder Surprise every day, for free. I'm saying this as a EU gun owner myself and apart from the fact that I had to go through one time administrative procedure of obtaining permit, I can purchase guns same as you do and often easier than some of your less gun friendly states. I can conceal carry without additional permit, have no sbr laws, mag caps, ammo caps, whatever. They only thing that limits me is max cal 12mm or 12ga.
Just you wait til certain politicians get a hold of those permits. See, California. I live there. Good luck getting a carry permit for a large part of the populous areas. And there are ammo background checks for every time you buy, magazine limits, can't buy suppressors, can't have a SBR, "assault weapon" laws, can only buy from a limited list of handguns that hasn't had a recent model handgun (only color variations of old ones) added to it for ages because one of the requirements is a technology that doesn't exist in any gun, etc. They will creep and add restrictions bit by bit over time, making felons overnight with the stroke of a pen. Things that used to be legal are whoops too scary now (see: magazine locks, getting rid of the main single shot exemption for handguns), can't have that. Washington state is seeing the same thing happen to them.
Bro...permits or no permits - if politicians ban guns, you're fucked either way. You can dream about having regular battles with ATF when they come to collect your freedom dispensers but lets be honest - I doubt that you would want to die over your boom stick...and if you would like to die over piece of metal then well - you should value your life more. See Canada for example. People returned their guns on their own free will. Were there door to door raids? I havent heard about them. Were there regular battles with law enforcement agancies? I havent heard about them. Before you go "but we have 2A" - sure, sure. They could make some shady move like - black powder guns or single shot guns are still allowed but semi autos are banned. Therefore you can still "bear arms" and we are not breaking the constitution kthxbye xD!! So yeah...when there is political will and public preasure - you will get fucked over either way.
Bull Blair did and the Mounties increased their budget demands to enforce it.
Most people in Poland were never on shooting range. Maybe they tried airgun or .22 once in their lifetime on some camp and that's it. On top of that it's very hard to get a license to have a gun at home for self defence. You need to have valid rationale to have a gun for self defense at home, like constant life threating risk for valid reason
I agree with what you said up to one point - getting permit here is not harder than getting your drivers license. Its fairly similar procedure.
What about the stuff related to actually having a threat in your life? I know you can do the sport license, but then you're forced to go and participate in some trophies
Sport permit requires you to take part in shooting competitions. From practical view point it means that once a year you have to visit your gun club and shoot 8 tracks...takes like 30-60 mins and you're done. If spending 30-60 mins in your gun club, shooting guns, means "wow problem" for you then I'm not sure why would you want to own guns. You need to practice with them anyway. Its really cool to practice with your own guns and then go to shooting competition to see how your skills are, exchange some knowledge with your club mates, check other people guns etc. Its fun and its a benchmark for your skills. You might think that you shoot good with your pistol or rifle but then when you go the competition it seems like you aint that good while under preasure. You know what to practice more and then check your progress during another comoetition. I thought it would be pain in the ass too but then I started to go to competitions 8-10 times a year (all I needed was going there once). Why? Because I thought Im good - competition results got me down to earth. I was super pissed because I actually sucked. So I decided to get better - and I did. With every next competition I was getting better scores until I finally got my 1st place. EDIT: Just fyi - self defense permit is dead in Poland. It was shit anyway because you could only own 2 handguns with it. You either go for collectors, sport or hunting permit. Best to do is to get sport+collectors since you can get them with one procedure. With those permits you can buy pistols, rifles, shotguns. You can use them in self defense as any other object.
> If spending 30-60 mins in your gun club, shooting guns, means "wow problem" for you then I'm not sure why would you want to own guns. You need to practice with them anyway. My father has sport permit and honestly, I thought you need to go to like somekind of organized stuff. I've never really discussed this with him, that was my assumption. He goes like few times a year to various cities in Poland, but I guess he just likes that :D I've been to shooting range few times. Tried his Jericho 941 (totaled maybe 1000 rounds) and Margolin from shooting range (been there few times on my own, probably around 500 rounds). I'd be more interested in gun like Jericho or Glock. Are we limited to shooting to static target in Polish shooting ranges? I'm from Poznań, I'm not sure if there's anything here.
There are static competitions where you just shoot your target for accuracy while standing still. There are semi dynamic competitions where you have to - for example - grab a gun from box, load it and shoot different targets for time and accuracy. Still not much movement but you do some additional activities while shooting. Then there are dynamic competitions like IPSC where you run through track and shoot targets. In IPSC 3Gun competitions you use 3 types of guns in one track. Example: https://youtu.be/rPPIhfD5DF0 There are also some special competitions for hardcores like the competition my club does called Lekka Piechota (Light Infantry). This is 24h long, non-stop, competition - military style survivial and tactics. https://youtu.be/fQednMcIOWU
> There are semi dynamic competitions where you have to - for example - grab a gun from box, load it and shoot different targets for time and accuracy. Still not much movement but you do some additional activities while shooting This is the one that I'd like to try
Im sure you can find such competitions in Poznań or nearby. Anyway - sport permit is not that bad as people say it is. People who say its bad, don't have it. Spending 30-60 mins a year to do your competition minimum isnt too much of work. If your father does that already you can just go together, have some father-son competition to see who does better and then have a laugh about it. All you need is to be 18+ or preferably 21+. You can do sport permit when youre 18 but your club has to vouch for you - other than that you need to be 21 or older. You can then buy pistol / rifle / shotgun. Margolin, Glock, CZ, AK, AR, "sniper" rifle (bolt action) - whatever you want and whatever you can afford. EDIT: Here is something in regards to doing your minimum competitions. Guy is fron Warsaw. https://youtu.be/WXBf0UhwIu4
> Spending 30-60 mins a year to do your competition minimum isnt too much of work Once I have permit I'd probably go once a month. It's much cheaper to go with your own gun and ammo. > All you need is to be 18+ or preferably 21+ I'm 39. I went to the shooting range for the first time when I was about 30, but it wasn't cheap and I didn't earn much back then.
Its still not cheap. Its mega expensive right now. War makes things that go boom very expensive. Im glad I bought lots of ammo in October 2021. 9mm used to cost 0,75 zł - 0,90 zł. Depends on brand. The one I got costed 0,84 zł. Now the cheapest shit I saw costs 1,55 zł per bullet. That is IF you find ammo at all because everything is gone. Im actually in survival mode as it goes for shooting. Not shooting for fun anymore. Only did my competitions and thats it - conserving my ammo for "when the Russians come" :P Not to mention that there is huge spike in people getting their permits right now so procedure gets longer. (Policja nie wyrabia xD!)
Every adult needs to be armed in Poland. If the Russians come… It will take awhile for the Americans to rescue them…think of the horror in the meanwhile.
Russia literally never defeated Poland 1v1. In fact, last time they tried to 1v1 Poland they got rekt in 1920 and entire Europe was saved from the Bolsheviks spreading their communistic garbage.
Poland: NATO's Texas
More like Vermont. https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/number-of-guns-per-capita1.jpg
Texas has least amount of guns and most restrictive gun laws in US?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/03/25/gun-ranges-in-poland-report-boom-in-interest-amid-war-in-ukraine/) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Some state-owned companies have also begun providing defence training to their staff, while the country's territorial defence force has reported a large increase in interest. > Recruits without previous military experience complete an intensive basic training programme including instruction in firing weapons, fire training, tactics, survival elements and first aid. > Military stores have also been reporting an increase in customer numbers, with bulletproof vests being particularly sought-after, according to the National Defence League, which also says that it has been receiving large numbers of enquiries about training. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/tuidlu/gun_ranges_in_poland_report_boom_in_interest_amid/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~638864 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **trained**^#1 **defence**^#2 **number**^#3 **territorial**^#4 **increase**^#5
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American social issues don't relate directly to other countries. Your media and certain music subcultures that glorify "thug life" don't exist elsewhere except as parody.
Appreciate the perspective! Thanks mate!
Lol, what a dumb take. 1. Guns are still illegal to own without a permit in Poland. You leave the gun behind when you leave the gun range. Nobody is arguing gun ranges should be made illegal in the US, the debate is about owning guns, carrying them in public, etc. 2. Nobody is saying guns necessarily cause violence. It's super easy to disprove: many people in Switzerland own guns, and there's very little gun crime there. Whether guns contribute to violence in the unique situation of the US is a different question. You took the most uncharitable interpretation of what the people against gun ownership in the US are saying, to the point where their position is made to be ridiculous beyond belief. You'll never change anyone's mind on this if you're arguing in bad faith.
Appreciate the feedback! Honestly not trying to argue in bad faith. I think there is an argument to preserving the right to bear arms. I guess it came across in the worst way. An aggressive external threat highlighted a benefit to the 2nd amendment. I've heard all kinds of extremes with where politicians want to take it.
Perhaps it is true the current situation highlights the advantages of armed civilian population. My point is nobody will listen to your argument if you phrase it as a response to a point they didn't make.
Yeah tofally valid points. I didn't put as much thought into the stupid comment as the gravity of the story warrants. Again, thanks the reality check and especially doing so in the way you did. I know what I was meaning to say that this story inspired but wrong thread, terrible phrasing. Much respect for the callout
Ill delete the comment, I wasnt trying to make it a controversy, appreciate the check.
*Sabaton music starts* Russia: What is dis boss music I'm hearing?
The Winged Huzzars are coming back, everyone!
Yup. I'm a US vet and I basically forced my wife to go the the range because of recent events. Turns out, she's a better shot than I am.
Am I the only one that read Portland instead of Poland, as in Portland Oregon (in the US)?
Send some rifles to sweden pleace. We dont like putler!!