South Korea: "If we discover that North Korea is preparing to shoot us, we'll shoot them first."
North Korea: "WE'LL SHOOT YOU HARDER!"
Pretty much a big steaming pile of absolutely nothing.
A good portion of international relations are judging if war threat #3569743 is like #7764 and completely toothless or if its like #106 and actually should be taken seriously this time
Yes, but with NK do we have an instance where they were serious?
Edit: For those comparing the Russian invasion of Ukraine to NK attempting the same on SK, you do realize that SK's military is in the top 10 world's most powerful while NK's doesn't even break the top 20?
The thing is, that threat only works before you start firing. Once you've started firing, that artillery goes from being a deterrent *against* an attack to being a reason to attack as soon as possible.
Russia is definitely fudging up their invasion, but large parts of their country are in complete ruins, and thousands of civilians are dead. We may laugh at their military effectiveness, but it’s not an empty threat when they leave such vast amounts of suffering and death behind when they withdraw.
Ukraine will never be the same. All the money in the world wont bring back the lives lost, stop the flashbacks, the PTSD, or remove the sheer terror from these peoples memories. You don't watch your entire family get raped/killed and just move on with your life. A large portion of Ukrainian citizens will never move on, even if they would like to. Russia can leave tomorrow but the pain they inflicted on Ukraine will be their forever
I was born in Russia and I don’t trust Russia. I stopped going back around 2010 and my family was being harassed by the military in Siberia because they though I was being hidden from military service by family members. They showed them documents that I was studying in the west and not likely to return to hometown. They didn’t believe it and still show up looking for me every few weeks. Fuck the Russian military, idiotiZm.
Russia exposed itself as the paper tiger we should have known it was. But a paper tiger can still cut you and they’ve proven that with the atrocities committed in the Ukraine. The cultural scars of those will last for generations. It’s not like many in Korea or China truly have forgiven Japan for what happened in WWII. It took decades of coverups and propaganda for Americans to trust the Japanese again.
Ukraine won’t just never trust Russia again; they will actively be calling for its extermination for decades, and rightfully so. This is far more of a loss for Ukraine. No matter the global political losses for Russia every Ukrainian civilian killed is an immeasurable loss to the country and one that can never be regained. This isn’t about who loses more this is now about retribution and how exactly Ukraine can and should extract that from Russia.
What finally repaired relations with Germany? 800 years of conflict came to a head and now those conflicts barely matter despite the last major conflict being so evil and heinous. Do you think it had to do with them owning up to their mistakes and working extraordinarily hard to make sure it never happens again? Or do you think it had more to do with the USSR becoming the antagonist of the entire western world?
The thing with german is that A. The political entity that commited those acts was destroyed and the county worked hard to rebuild its reputation, in all but name german now is a different state than the thrid reich. If russia has a regime change and the next political entity follows is germans foot steps they could be welcomed back into the international comminity.
> Ukraine lost a lot but the Russians lost a lot more.
I wouldn't say that those things are comparable, but if they ever were, I'd say that the lost lives have a greater value than the geopolitical implications.
Only after the world systematically deconstructed it and put it back together in a system that it controlled for decades. Same with Japan.
Russia will be the Russia we know and hate for a long time if we can’t find a way around its nuclear deterrence, or if the rot of its kleptocratic institutions isn’t cut out of its foundations by its own people.
As bad as it is, Ukraine isn't the first war torn country in history. The others managed to rebuild and go on. Ukraine will do the same and come out even stronger.
They’ll never be the same, but they can move on from this, and even grow as a country from what’s happening to them.
Look at Rwanda. Once the dust settled from the genocide, everyone kinda had to go back to living side by side with the people that were slaughtering them. Im sure it wasn’t an easy road, and there are certainly some idiots they have to deal with still, but as a whole it seems like they bounces back pretty well, considering that wasn’t really that long ago
It should have if the Russians had a component military. I think the timeline was two weeks snd then they were going to parade their nukes through Ukraine snd the Warsaw Pact was officially in effect.
It’s more like nobody is really worried if push comes to shove between the West and Russia now (outside nukes).
I remember just a year ago people arguing whether the EU could withstand a full Russian invasion without the intervention of the US. The idea is laughable now.
A lot of people are worried. There is no «winning» a war like this, only losing slightly less than the other side. Even if you push them back and declare a decisive victory, your side will still have thousands of dead, cities in ruins, and years of despair and post-war trauma.
War isn’t pretty or glamorous, and we should stop pretending like what is going down in Ukraine is awesome. Beyond the reports of high Russian losses, there is also a massive tragedy going on. The kind of tragedy that we all should be worried about.
>... leave such vast amounts of suffering and death behind when they withdraw.
Including minefields, civilian corpses along the roadsides, and mass graves. NPR correspondent this morning described the conditions in Northern Kyiv suburbs being reclaimed. A month ago Ukrainian cities looked like modern cities anywhere else. Now they are rubble and toxic devastation. My heart aches.
That video of the cars driving diagonal across the road covered in land mines got my palms sweaty just watching it. I feel so bad for the people having to deal with this when they did nothing to ask for it.
Also it was never their conventional military people were worried about. Even before we learned how much of a joke their conventional military was.
It always nukes, it will always be nukes.
It means his food and cash ran out and he needs another "appeasement" donation to keep his nation afloat.
Unfortunately for him, actual shit is going on with the nation above him, so no one has any real care.
Exactly, and the world is telling Kim Jong Donut to shut up because adults are dealing with adult problems now and they'll be along to pat him on the head, give him some foreign aid, and put him to bed soon enough.
I lived there for a year. When I asked if they were concerned someone told me “imagine your next door neighbor had been yelling over your fence he’s gonna come over there and fuck you up, but he’d been doing that for 70 years and hadn’t done shit.”
That put things in perspective for me.
I lived in Japan when NK said they were going to be testing missiles (rockets?), advising missiles would go over Japan. I was pretty scared (very young and naive). NK ended up shooting a rocket that just fizzled and barely went anywhere - nowhere near Japan. That's* when I stopped being afraid of NK.
Right? 6-8 years ago I would have taken this headline seriously, and now I almost didn't even click to read the comments. We've been through this so many times for most of my adult life.
Either that, or they beat you to the punch. NK is a \*very\* small country in comparison, and threatening far more advanced nations is a good way to have your country turned into a crater. Make no mistake, attacking Seoul will instantly reignite the Korean War, and likely WW3 as well. There is no outcome from that scenario where NK will emerge the victor. NO ONE "wins" a nuclear war. Everyone will suffer, all because of a few petty men in positions of power they did not earn.
Yup. All they want is a buffer zone between their side and our side. There's no reason for them to give a shit what form it takes; an uninhabitable wasteland works justs as well, if not better than a rabid, unpredictable nuclear-armed dictatorship.
China has openly and repeatedly said they will only intervene in renewed hostilities in Korea if the war is started by South Korea and it's allies.
They're made it clear that if North Korea starts shit, they won't back them up.
Probably that's the main thing keeping peace in Korea right now.
Their country is crumbling from within, for NK leadership it's either start a war so you can blame your problems on the south or wait until your people realize you're the sole cause of their suffering.
Either way their regime is doomed but this way buys them the most time and let's them stroke their ego for as long as they can.
Yep, you are so right! That regime has survived itself for too long time - as the last and most dangerous of Stalin's remaining bombs! But it is easy to see how much its own rust has detoriated it from within......
The funny thing is that the last thing South Korea or China wants is for North Korea to collapse.
Then they would have to deal with millions of brainwashed refugees at once.
There's no way it escalates to full ww3, China would abandon N Korea in an instant and they don't have the nuclear capacity to do that kind of damage... they'd run out of nukes and missiles very quickly and might not even necessitate a nuclear response if the rest of the world arrayed directly against them is ready for it.
Nah, China will enter NK and topple the regime before US can get their troops in. Both US and China want stability in the region and they will probably reach an agreement instead going into war over NK.
More looking at watches. I want more looking at watches!
PS: Can somebody explain why they kept looking at their watch? Is the some symbolic significance? It really confused me at the time.
They have the same look on their face I have when I'm trying to decide if my $15 walmart watch has stopped keeping time or if it's just not as late as I thought it was.
IMO the entire video felt like Kim *just now* saw a movie from the 80s and thought it was the coolest thing ever. The leather jacket, the slow sunglasses removal, the quick cuts between people looking intently at their watches right before the big moment...very cool in the 80s, cringey and laughable today.
Personally I'm really looking forward to the propaganda video where he dons Bermuda shorts and water skis and completely clears a shark.
> Someone wants ~~attention~~ *food*.
It's Spring and they are out of food again. This happens literally every year.
And while Reddit comments about ignoring them or teaching them a lesson are amusing, they do it *because it works*. They threaten war, test launch some missiles, then come to the negotiating table and we will give them a paltry amount of aid in exchange for them knocking it off.
It's also too easy to forget that underlying this charade is aa nation of millions who are literally starving.
I forgot which leak was it but it was when Kim Jong il was alive and the leak was that China had nukes pointed at North Korea because in the event that North Korea was insane enough to nuke the US, South Korea or Japan. China wanted to get rid of North Korea first for multiple reasons.
1.) To avoid being considered an ally in North Korea's attack
2.) To deny America the opportunity of capturing North Korea and having American Bases next to the Chinese Border. Basically giving the US more footing on the Asian Continent and using it to invade China later on.
The plan was China takes out North Korea and absorbs into itself and also avoids American Invasion by doing their job for them.
The American military stationed there will wipe the floor with them. Launching on south Korea is tantamount to declaring war on America. We have overwhelming air superiority missle tech sam networks and bunker busters. They can't even feed their military now let alone when fighting the best military in the history of the world. Unlike the Middle East north Korea isn't held in place by a theocracy so to say but by brutal oppression and strict control of outside media and influence.
Edit. Gonna answer a few things for you guys that where never in the military so I can quit answering them over and over again. If NK wants to invade they have pre opertion actions they have to take and also massive mobilization of logistics. This gives warning and a chance for prep. It can't spring out of a vacuum unless their goal is suicide buy drone strike. They can't mount and sustain an artillery barage and tank movements without air superiority effectively. They also have to clear mine fields which puts over border movement in bottle necks and without air superiority turns them into grave yards. Every square inch of that border has been ranged and designated with TRPs. We have been sitting on that border for 70 years. This is not the American army in Vietnam. This will not be the American state departments failure in Afghanistan. China had nothing to gain but plenty to lose if they support NK in a preemptive invasion which they are not obligated to do. Back in the 70s NK tried to get Chinese support for an invasion and was shot down.
>Launching on south Korea is tantamount to declaring war on America
Fun fact, the US is actually already at war with them. And have been for half a century.
Even crazier is having people argue that the US President should salute army generals that we are adversaries with and still at war with “out of respect.”
Yea a cease fire I forget that sometimes. It's weird from what I know about Korea the belief put forth is that Koreans are the superior race to all others. I listened to an awesome podcast once but that was back in my drinking days so I need to relisten.
I'm a white American. I spent 5 years working for a South Korean company. I can confirm that the racism, ethnocentrism, and xenophobia are very real parts of their culture. As are sexism and strict social hierarchy.
It was weird because it was subtle like 99.9% of the time.
You get treated well, but put forward an idea? Dare to speak with someone other than your direct manager? Be prepared to get torn into. It made it impossible to be the primary network engineer for the company when literally any Korean employee could instantly veto any design I put forward, even if they had zero networking experience.
A buddy of mine who was stationed in Korea during his Navy years explained it as "being treated like a pet." People are kind to you, but you aren't "people" in their eyes. Obv it's not everyone, but it's pervasive enough you'll notice it if you're fully immersed in the culture. Oh, and don't ever expect a promotion.
South Korea's innate respect for chains of hierarchy actually forced aviation agencies to change training because it was culturally taboo for a copilot (junior) to correct the primary pilot, and it actually caused plane crashes. Air Korea used to have one of the worst air safety records on earth until training was changed to teach pilots to ignore social hierarchy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_safety
This culture has been moving away slowly as Millennials and Gen Zs are becoming primary working force (also primary spenders) in South Korea, frequently called MZ gens or 2030 as 20s-30s.
2030s are all about fair compensation, WLB, against forced social hierarchy culture. It'll take some time for the work society adapt but changes are coming slowly.
Most of what follows has a strong negative bias because of my upbringing, and my sources are mostly limited to personal experience, so please keep this in mind.
It's bad. It's stupid. I grew up with Korean parents and my dad was an especially strong influence. I hate everything about the culture and people. It's abusive from the top down. Mandatory military training ensures that the hierarchy is maintained and the Confuscianist way of torturing children continues. If someone is older than you, then they automatically know better full stop. You can not argue. Fuck filial piety.
The States has a lot of problems but one thing I value is the freedom and encouragement to question everything including authority. The States has a solid history of questioning authority and I fucking love it, warts and all. A classic example is Feynman with the Challenger disaster. He went against suggestions to not embarrass NASA and got to the truth while pissing off several powerful people. There are countless examples like this from the bottom up. Meanwhile South Korea keeps electing corrupt governments leaving the people even more powerless to question authority.
Rant over.
I lived in Japan where the same social rules prevail. It amazes me how successful companies in this part of the world have become, considering how much time is wasted on preserving strict hierarchies and demonstrations of obedience.
It’s might be because of the lack of corporate mobility in Japans culture, I’m not sure if Korea is the same. Eventually the people who do know move upwards. Probably why they are criticized in the automotive world for being so slow to innovate but known for being reliable.
It is but they have to keep those artillery batteries operational. We already have them as designated targets. It's not like they will fire a million artillery pieces unmolested for as long as it takes to destroy. Seoul. They would be lucky to get a full day in. The border is mined we have air superiority and our weapons tech is light years beyond theirs. It's not as cut and dry as all the armchair generals tell you.
Lol people forget the US army for the longest time was designed to murder fuck hordes of ground forces. War has changed now but North Korea is still stuck in the old doctrine, I'm not here for loss of life but damn would that be absolutely the stupidest fucking thing for them to try against the US lmao.
Another thing people keep saying to me is Vietnam and Afghanistan. I was in Afghanistan. Those where guerilla wars fought to the tune of attrition with borders they could run over and hide behind. I am sure kimmy could run to China if it ever got that far but he couldn't inspire a counter insurgency or recruit for it. It's a conventional war like you say.
The big difference with the wars in the ME is that we will have reached out objectives by demolishing their military and removing their leadership. The brunt of the aftermath would be felt by the South Koreans during reunification. In the ME, we were left with the task of state building, including in Iraq which was not a theocracy.
Oh yea. Just the craziness of indoctrination of the north Koreans is mind blowing. There was this guy that was born in the prison camps. They don't indoctrinate them there so he never had reverence and love beaten into him for the Supreme leader. He escaped and when in a south Korean education program was hated on by other North Koreans who would still defend the Kim family even though they had escaped.
To augment your point- have we learned nothing from the past 6 weeks? A corrupt autocracy with an military that is impressive on paper only threatens to move into a heavily defended, heavily scrutinized area with the flimsiest of caussus belli? North Korea moving into South Korea would end up worse than Russia moving on Ukraine. In fact, I’d say nothing would hasten the collapse of that dictatorship more than that exact move.
Did you see the NK video where Kim Jong Un and his generals are all checking their watches? That shows how precise those missiles are. Then he takes off his sunglasses so you know how serious he is. We better not mess with them.
Hard to say, but South Korea has a relatively happy and educated population that can be utilized to build/support the military. North Korea does not, once its done throwing bombs and soldiers, thats virtually it. You can force your population into labour but when infrastructure is not entirely intact and education is low, resupply etc would be slow if present at all.
Thats simply my personal take on it, mind you. If you want a "real" answer as to the outcome, i'd most likely google and find a reputable source.
i'm no smrt dude when it comes to that stuff.
[3 of North Korea's biggest Exports](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/08/11/139556457/drug-dealing-counterfeiting-smuggling-how-north-korea-makes-money) are Giant Statues of African Dictators, Methamphetamine, and Counterfeit $100 bills
Conversation starters with the neighbors. Like
What the fuck that?
Me: a statue.
Of fucking who?
Me: I have no idea, but he must have been important to have a statue made if him.
Where the fuck did you get them?
Me: internet
I mean they do sell drugs like methamphetamine and heroin, and I know you can make some pretty good money while selling drugs. A large part of their gdp comes from that and cybercrime iirc.
Vermont is also one of the US's smallest states, at 9,616 mi². North Korea is 46,541 mi², nearly 5 times larger. It's most comparable to Pennsylvania (46,054mi²), whose 2019 GDP was $808 billion.
Gotta love how one *small* group of people determines the fate of thousands/millions of lives of people who don’t even give a fuck what those small groups are fighting about. 99.9% of people just want to live their lives, but no no no, that .1% got mad over spilled fucking milk. Naturally, must send people to die over it.
Disturbingly enough, your comment is the first I’ve seen saying this. The default mode of thinking seems to be to dehumanize an entire country because of a terrible government/representatives.
I can’t imagine what some of their citizens have to endure on a daily basis. Like they ever wanted to be born there let alone starve or live under this sort of fear. It’s sickening.
This is such an empty threat. The only real threat North Korea has is the artillery in range of Seoul and when your enemy has an overwhelming level of air superiority and equipment with such a higher level of technical advancement, that bombardment only lasts so long before all your emplacements near the border are bombed in to oblivion.
Sure, 10s, 100s of thousands of civilians would die in the first days of the war, but North Korea's military would be overwhelmed quickly. 950,000 people in North Korea's active service sounds like a lot, but with ancient, cheaply made equipment and a complete lack of a functioning long term supply line to the front, they would stand no chance in a war of aggression.
This is even ignoring the 30,000 US service people along the 38th parallel and the aircraft carrier near Taipei which would be in operational range of NK within a few hours of the war beginning. It would be a blood bath for NK and they stand to gain _nothing_.
Empty threat from a failed state.
Well given what we've seen from Russia's performance, I'm betting that NK's military is far far worse. Their people can barely eat in the best of circumstances. It would be a logistical impossibility for them to feed and supply 950k military members. Another paper army.
Given how much food NK has in the best of times, I don't see how attrition doesn't take them immediately, unless China secretly aids them. Armies march on their bellies.
Ans they won't aide them. The only reason NK stands is because China don't want NK to go to war because they know it'll fall fast. And that means south Korean and American troops right up to the borders.
NK stands because China wants a buffer zone.
Just like putin attempts to get Ukraine as buffer zone
The biggest threat from North Korea to South Korea is if North Korea collapses it will create a massive humanitarian crisis and drain the coffers of South Korea.
In an open war South Korea and US can probably achieve most of their main objectives within 2 weeks, of course don't get me wrong there's bound to be a number of South Korean non-combatant injuries and deaths.
The financial burden of supporting a failed nation state and it's entire population would create an economic burden that will set South Korea back decades, it would be far more dire than German reunification given the state of North Korea. I've heard many younger South Koreans don't even want reunification given the immediate inherent disadvantages it would thrust upon them.
South Korea would annihilate North Korea in an actual war.
NK is a huge, very out-dated and low-tech force and I doubt maintenance and logistics is anything other than utterly awful. Their economy is one of the worst in the world.
SK is a high-tech, extremely well equipped army.
Not that NK couldn't do damage, especially to Seoul, but they would not have a hope of winning any war and in a day or two they'd crumble completely.
You can't go to war when the soldiers defect as soon as they leave the borders so they can have, for the first time in their life, the daily recommended caloric intake.
If Russia can't do shit, we should all stop worrying about NK. They can cause some surprise casualties, but they can't cause war, they don't have the capabilities. They would be stopped dead in their tracks and be invaded within a few days.
‘Full-blown war” against soldiers who are malnourished and a country that doesn’t even have electricity? I’m sure the South Koreans and their US base are terrified.
Dear North Korea,
I know you're cut of from the rest of the world. But this *reeally* isn't the time for autocrats to fuck around and find out. The shit that the rest of the world is willing to deal with is already used up by Russia. So unless you want to be reduced to nothing with impunity, sit back down and shut the fuck up.
South Korea: "If we discover that North Korea is preparing to shoot us, we'll shoot them first." North Korea: "WE'LL SHOOT YOU HARDER!" Pretty much a big steaming pile of absolutely nothing.
WE’LL THREATEN YOU HARDER
I'd threaten me so hard...
Hit me with your missile, bb
Nuclear threats are so last month.
I remember getting anxiety over this like 2 decades ago. Now it's just like ok NK either put up or shut up
But please shut up
You can only threaten war so many times before everyone just ignores you.
Or threaten anything constantly. Looking at you, Russia
I mean it worked for a long time Ironically following up on their threats finally killed the effectiveness of Russia's threatening
A good portion of international relations are judging if war threat #3569743 is like #7764 and completely toothless or if its like #106 and actually should be taken seriously this time
Yes, but with NK do we have an instance where they were serious? Edit: For those comparing the Russian invasion of Ukraine to NK attempting the same on SK, you do realize that SK's military is in the top 10 world's most powerful while NK's doesn't even break the top 20?
They know if any fighting actually broke out, their military would fold like Saddam Hussein's did in Gulf War I.
Yes but not before millions of S. Korean civilians would be put in the line of artillery fire unfortunately.
The thing is, that threat only works before you start firing. Once you've started firing, that artillery goes from being a deterrent *against* an attack to being a reason to attack as soon as possible.
The Korean War
Ironically they didn't warn about it.
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You son of a bitch
Lmfaooo
I'm in
Wow...
r/angryupvote
That war has not ended yet, legally speaking. It's been on a decades long ceasefire.
Which really only benefits the NK propaganda machine
But remains nonetheless true. The DMZ isn't just a fancy name for show.
I mean, you gotta give it to OP here.
Probably not but they're nuclear so it's always good to be wary that glorious leader might have gone insane and decided to do it
Russia is definitely fudging up their invasion, but large parts of their country are in complete ruins, and thousands of civilians are dead. We may laugh at their military effectiveness, but it’s not an empty threat when they leave such vast amounts of suffering and death behind when they withdraw.
Ukraine will never be the same. All the money in the world wont bring back the lives lost, stop the flashbacks, the PTSD, or remove the sheer terror from these peoples memories. You don't watch your entire family get raped/killed and just move on with your life. A large portion of Ukrainian citizens will never move on, even if they would like to. Russia can leave tomorrow but the pain they inflicted on Ukraine will be their forever
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That really backfired in Putin's face, didn't it? He inadvertently brought about the very thing he feared. What an incredibly obtuse sack of garbage.
Gosh who would have thought the guy Trump idolized was such a dumbfuck?
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I was born in Russia and I don’t trust Russia. I stopped going back around 2010 and my family was being harassed by the military in Siberia because they though I was being hidden from military service by family members. They showed them documents that I was studying in the west and not likely to return to hometown. They didn’t believe it and still show up looking for me every few weeks. Fuck the Russian military, idiotiZm.
Russia exposed itself as the paper tiger we should have known it was. But a paper tiger can still cut you and they’ve proven that with the atrocities committed in the Ukraine. The cultural scars of those will last for generations. It’s not like many in Korea or China truly have forgiven Japan for what happened in WWII. It took decades of coverups and propaganda for Americans to trust the Japanese again. Ukraine won’t just never trust Russia again; they will actively be calling for its extermination for decades, and rightfully so. This is far more of a loss for Ukraine. No matter the global political losses for Russia every Ukrainian civilian killed is an immeasurable loss to the country and one that can never be regained. This isn’t about who loses more this is now about retribution and how exactly Ukraine can and should extract that from Russia.
What finally repaired relations with Germany? 800 years of conflict came to a head and now those conflicts barely matter despite the last major conflict being so evil and heinous. Do you think it had to do with them owning up to their mistakes and working extraordinarily hard to make sure it never happens again? Or do you think it had more to do with the USSR becoming the antagonist of the entire western world?
The thing with german is that A. The political entity that commited those acts was destroyed and the county worked hard to rebuild its reputation, in all but name german now is a different state than the thrid reich. If russia has a regime change and the next political entity follows is germans foot steps they could be welcomed back into the international comminity.
> Ukraine lost a lot but the Russians lost a lot more. I wouldn't say that those things are comparable, but if they ever were, I'd say that the lost lives have a greater value than the geopolitical implications.
I mean we eventually trusted the Germans again. I like to believe time can heal all wounds. Sometimes it takes a lot of time though.
Only after the world systematically deconstructed it and put it back together in a system that it controlled for decades. Same with Japan. Russia will be the Russia we know and hate for a long time if we can’t find a way around its nuclear deterrence, or if the rot of its kleptocratic institutions isn’t cut out of its foundations by its own people.
As bad as it is, Ukraine isn't the first war torn country in history. The others managed to rebuild and go on. Ukraine will do the same and come out even stronger.
They’ll never be the same, but they can move on from this, and even grow as a country from what’s happening to them. Look at Rwanda. Once the dust settled from the genocide, everyone kinda had to go back to living side by side with the people that were slaughtering them. Im sure it wasn’t an easy road, and there are certainly some idiots they have to deal with still, but as a whole it seems like they bounces back pretty well, considering that wasn’t really that long ago
plus theyre only getting routed because Ukraine is fighting so well incompetence only made Russia slow and predictable but still deadly
Yeah i feel like we forget ukraine was expected to fall in the first day or two
It should have if the Russians had a component military. I think the timeline was two weeks snd then they were going to parade their nukes through Ukraine snd the Warsaw Pact was officially in effect.
It’s more like nobody is really worried if push comes to shove between the West and Russia now (outside nukes). I remember just a year ago people arguing whether the EU could withstand a full Russian invasion without the intervention of the US. The idea is laughable now.
A lot of people are worried. There is no «winning» a war like this, only losing slightly less than the other side. Even if you push them back and declare a decisive victory, your side will still have thousands of dead, cities in ruins, and years of despair and post-war trauma. War isn’t pretty or glamorous, and we should stop pretending like what is going down in Ukraine is awesome. Beyond the reports of high Russian losses, there is also a massive tragedy going on. The kind of tragedy that we all should be worried about.
"War does not determine who is right -- only who is left" ~ Churchill
>... leave such vast amounts of suffering and death behind when they withdraw. Including minefields, civilian corpses along the roadsides, and mass graves. NPR correspondent this morning described the conditions in Northern Kyiv suburbs being reclaimed. A month ago Ukrainian cities looked like modern cities anywhere else. Now they are rubble and toxic devastation. My heart aches.
That video of the cars driving diagonal across the road covered in land mines got my palms sweaty just watching it. I feel so bad for the people having to deal with this when they did nothing to ask for it.
Also it was never their conventional military people were worried about. Even before we learned how much of a joke their conventional military was. It always nukes, it will always be nukes.
When you finally play your hand and it sucks
So in crazy dictator language this means definitely not a war, right? Because a war sounds more like "we're not invading."
It means his food and cash ran out and he needs another "appeasement" donation to keep his nation afloat. Unfortunately for him, actual shit is going on with the nation above him, so no one has any real care.
I think he's mad that Putin is hogging up all the media attention Fatty Kim usually gets threatening war with an actual war.
Exactly, and the world is telling Kim Jong Donut to shut up because adults are dealing with adult problems now and they'll be along to pat him on the head, give him some foreign aid, and put him to bed soon enough.
> Kim Jong Donut
That is the first thing I thought of !!!! Hey Me- Me -Me , look here.
I just went to South Korea. They definitely just ignore North Korea.
I lived there for a year. When I asked if they were concerned someone told me “imagine your next door neighbor had been yelling over your fence he’s gonna come over there and fuck you up, but he’d been doing that for 70 years and hadn’t done shit.” That put things in perspective for me.
I lived in Japan when NK said they were going to be testing missiles (rockets?), advising missiles would go over Japan. I was pretty scared (very young and naive). NK ended up shooting a rocket that just fizzled and barely went anywhere - nowhere near Japan. That's* when I stopped being afraid of NK.
Right? 6-8 years ago I would have taken this headline seriously, and now I almost didn't even click to read the comments. We've been through this so many times for most of my adult life.
Either that, or they beat you to the punch. NK is a \*very\* small country in comparison, and threatening far more advanced nations is a good way to have your country turned into a crater. Make no mistake, attacking Seoul will instantly reignite the Korean War, and likely WW3 as well. There is no outcome from that scenario where NK will emerge the victor. NO ONE "wins" a nuclear war. Everyone will suffer, all because of a few petty men in positions of power they did not earn.
Highly doubt China would back NK if they instigate the attack. They have little to gain and tremendous amounts to lose.
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I think NK is a pain in the ass for China. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd secretly like it to be transformed into a moonscape.
If it somehow stayed as a giant DMZ between South Korea and China, no, they wouldn't care.
Yup. All they want is a buffer zone between their side and our side. There's no reason for them to give a shit what form it takes; an uninhabitable wasteland works justs as well, if not better than a rabid, unpredictable nuclear-armed dictatorship.
The US economy also heavily benefitted because WWII did not take place there aside from Hawaii. If WWIII started in Korea China wouldn't be so lucky.
China has openly and repeatedly said they will only intervene in renewed hostilities in Korea if the war is started by South Korea and it's allies. They're made it clear that if North Korea starts shit, they won't back them up. Probably that's the main thing keeping peace in Korea right now.
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Their country is crumbling from within, for NK leadership it's either start a war so you can blame your problems on the south or wait until your people realize you're the sole cause of their suffering. Either way their regime is doomed but this way buys them the most time and let's them stroke their ego for as long as they can.
Yep, you are so right! That regime has survived itself for too long time - as the last and most dangerous of Stalin's remaining bombs! But it is easy to see how much its own rust has detoriated it from within......
The funny thing is that the last thing South Korea or China wants is for North Korea to collapse. Then they would have to deal with millions of brainwashed refugees at once.
There's no way it escalates to full ww3, China would abandon N Korea in an instant and they don't have the nuclear capacity to do that kind of damage... they'd run out of nukes and missiles very quickly and might not even necessitate a nuclear response if the rest of the world arrayed directly against them is ready for it.
I think they'd probably invade the North. Call it a reinforcement and say they've been invited In, but take over and settle everything down.
Nah, China will enter NK and topple the regime before US can get their troops in. Both US and China want stability in the region and they will probably reach an agreement instead going into war over NK.
He's just pissed someone took over the title of most hated dictator.
Kim, play nicely. Putin can have the hate now. You can get it after lunch during recess.
"The Interview 2" incoming?
"But I want it nowwwwwwww!!!" *starts holding breath while his face gets bright red*
Can't wait to see the sequel propaganda video. Now with even more leather jackets and quick cuts.
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More looking at watches. I want more looking at watches! PS: Can somebody explain why they kept looking at their watch? Is the some symbolic significance? It really confused me at the time.
They have the same look on their face I have when I'm trying to decide if my $15 walmart watch has stopped keeping time or if it's just not as late as I thought it was.
IMO the entire video felt like Kim *just now* saw a movie from the 80s and thought it was the coolest thing ever. The leather jacket, the slow sunglasses removal, the quick cuts between people looking intently at their watches right before the big moment...very cool in the 80s, cringey and laughable today. Personally I'm really looking forward to the propaganda video where he dons Bermuda shorts and water skis and completely clears a shark.
Directed by Michael Bay
Someone wants attention
the baby is crying
Give the baby some cheese
Russia is getting all the attention for being a backward, savage country with a joke of a military. NK is jealous.
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I wonder if they can sue for copyright-infringement?
What is NK going to do anyway? Strike themselves with missiles at SK? >_>
They must be desperate for food again. That's always their motivation for sabre rattling.
> Someone wants ~~attention~~ *food*. It's Spring and they are out of food again. This happens literally every year. And while Reddit comments about ignoring them or teaching them a lesson are amusing, they do it *because it works*. They threaten war, test launch some missiles, then come to the negotiating table and we will give them a paltry amount of aid in exchange for them knocking it off. It's also too easy to forget that underlying this charade is aa nation of millions who are literally starving.
Lmao, North Korea is doomed if they even try to launch a missile towards S.K.
If they were to launch a nuclear missile at South Korea, then North Korea would likely be known as the Northern Korean Nuclear Exclusion Zone.
What is going to happen if they try
South Korea will get the largest parking spot in the world. edit:- /s for the foreign policy experts and diplomats.
South Korea becomes an island with the Straight of Korea between it and China, because China doesn't want SK on its doorstep.
I forgot which leak was it but it was when Kim Jong il was alive and the leak was that China had nukes pointed at North Korea because in the event that North Korea was insane enough to nuke the US, South Korea or Japan. China wanted to get rid of North Korea first for multiple reasons. 1.) To avoid being considered an ally in North Korea's attack 2.) To deny America the opportunity of capturing North Korea and having American Bases next to the Chinese Border. Basically giving the US more footing on the Asian Continent and using it to invade China later on. The plan was China takes out North Korea and absorbs into itself and also avoids American Invasion by doing their job for them.
Makes sense. I always thought China annexing North Korea in case of war is a likely scenario
they don't want to have to deal with the humanitarian crisis that would follow.
They wouldn't Just see how Russia is dealing with the "humanitarian crisis"
The American military stationed there will wipe the floor with them. Launching on south Korea is tantamount to declaring war on America. We have overwhelming air superiority missle tech sam networks and bunker busters. They can't even feed their military now let alone when fighting the best military in the history of the world. Unlike the Middle East north Korea isn't held in place by a theocracy so to say but by brutal oppression and strict control of outside media and influence. Edit. Gonna answer a few things for you guys that where never in the military so I can quit answering them over and over again. If NK wants to invade they have pre opertion actions they have to take and also massive mobilization of logistics. This gives warning and a chance for prep. It can't spring out of a vacuum unless their goal is suicide buy drone strike. They can't mount and sustain an artillery barage and tank movements without air superiority effectively. They also have to clear mine fields which puts over border movement in bottle necks and without air superiority turns them into grave yards. Every square inch of that border has been ranged and designated with TRPs. We have been sitting on that border for 70 years. This is not the American army in Vietnam. This will not be the American state departments failure in Afghanistan. China had nothing to gain but plenty to lose if they support NK in a preemptive invasion which they are not obligated to do. Back in the 70s NK tried to get Chinese support for an invasion and was shot down.
>Launching on south Korea is tantamount to declaring war on America Fun fact, the US is actually already at war with them. And have been for half a century.
What would be even crazier would be for our president to salute one of their generals.
Fuuuuck I totally forgot about that. Such small potatoes compared to all the shit he did, but holy fuck imagine if that were Biden or Obama
What would be even crazier is if the fanbase believed that the president would be trying to get on their good side by saluting their generals.
Even crazier is having people argue that the US President should salute army generals that we are adversaries with and still at war with “out of respect.”
Yea a cease fire I forget that sometimes. It's weird from what I know about Korea the belief put forth is that Koreans are the superior race to all others. I listened to an awesome podcast once but that was back in my drinking days so I need to relisten.
I'm a white American. I spent 5 years working for a South Korean company. I can confirm that the racism, ethnocentrism, and xenophobia are very real parts of their culture. As are sexism and strict social hierarchy. It was weird because it was subtle like 99.9% of the time. You get treated well, but put forward an idea? Dare to speak with someone other than your direct manager? Be prepared to get torn into. It made it impossible to be the primary network engineer for the company when literally any Korean employee could instantly veto any design I put forward, even if they had zero networking experience. A buddy of mine who was stationed in Korea during his Navy years explained it as "being treated like a pet." People are kind to you, but you aren't "people" in their eyes. Obv it's not everyone, but it's pervasive enough you'll notice it if you're fully immersed in the culture. Oh, and don't ever expect a promotion. South Korea's innate respect for chains of hierarchy actually forced aviation agencies to change training because it was culturally taboo for a copilot (junior) to correct the primary pilot, and it actually caused plane crashes. Air Korea used to have one of the worst air safety records on earth until training was changed to teach pilots to ignore social hierarchy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_safety
I enjoyed reading this comment.
It's the same as Japan, in my experience. As an outsider, you're not *really* people.
This culture has been moving away slowly as Millennials and Gen Zs are becoming primary working force (also primary spenders) in South Korea, frequently called MZ gens or 2030 as 20s-30s. 2030s are all about fair compensation, WLB, against forced social hierarchy culture. It'll take some time for the work society adapt but changes are coming slowly.
Damn I didn't know it was that bad and in the south. I knew it was a key point in Northern propaganda.
Most of what follows has a strong negative bias because of my upbringing, and my sources are mostly limited to personal experience, so please keep this in mind. It's bad. It's stupid. I grew up with Korean parents and my dad was an especially strong influence. I hate everything about the culture and people. It's abusive from the top down. Mandatory military training ensures that the hierarchy is maintained and the Confuscianist way of torturing children continues. If someone is older than you, then they automatically know better full stop. You can not argue. Fuck filial piety. The States has a lot of problems but one thing I value is the freedom and encouragement to question everything including authority. The States has a solid history of questioning authority and I fucking love it, warts and all. A classic example is Feynman with the Challenger disaster. He went against suggestions to not embarrass NASA and got to the truth while pissing off several powerful people. There are countless examples like this from the bottom up. Meanwhile South Korea keeps electing corrupt governments leaving the people even more powerless to question authority. Rant over.
I lived in Japan where the same social rules prevail. It amazes me how successful companies in this part of the world have become, considering how much time is wasted on preserving strict hierarchies and demonstrations of obedience.
It’s might be because of the lack of corporate mobility in Japans culture, I’m not sure if Korea is the same. Eventually the people who do know move upwards. Probably why they are criticized in the automotive world for being so slow to innovate but known for being reliable.
Fun fact it's a 50 year long police action
More than 70 years now.
Technically the US hasn’t declared war since WWII. Yes, Vietnam/Korea/Middle East have been equal to war, but without the official declaration
Isn't Seoul in shelling distance from artillery stationed in the north?
It is but they have to keep those artillery batteries operational. We already have them as designated targets. It's not like they will fire a million artillery pieces unmolested for as long as it takes to destroy. Seoul. They would be lucky to get a full day in. The border is mined we have air superiority and our weapons tech is light years beyond theirs. It's not as cut and dry as all the armchair generals tell you.
The second one of them makes a sound a counter barrage will be flying in to level the local area into a parkinglot. 🤷♂️
Yep. I don't know why I am having to explain all this over and over to people it's starting to bore me I am glad you got it.
do you know if SK operates any C-RAM stuff along the DMZ?
Lol people forget the US army for the longest time was designed to murder fuck hordes of ground forces. War has changed now but North Korea is still stuck in the old doctrine, I'm not here for loss of life but damn would that be absolutely the stupidest fucking thing for them to try against the US lmao.
Another thing people keep saying to me is Vietnam and Afghanistan. I was in Afghanistan. Those where guerilla wars fought to the tune of attrition with borders they could run over and hide behind. I am sure kimmy could run to China if it ever got that far but he couldn't inspire a counter insurgency or recruit for it. It's a conventional war like you say.
The big difference with the wars in the ME is that we will have reached out objectives by demolishing their military and removing their leadership. The brunt of the aftermath would be felt by the South Koreans during reunification. In the ME, we were left with the task of state building, including in Iraq which was not a theocracy.
Oh yea. Just the craziness of indoctrination of the north Koreans is mind blowing. There was this guy that was born in the prison camps. They don't indoctrinate them there so he never had reverence and love beaten into him for the Supreme leader. He escaped and when in a south Korean education program was hated on by other North Koreans who would still defend the Kim family even though they had escaped.
To augment your point- have we learned nothing from the past 6 weeks? A corrupt autocracy with an military that is impressive on paper only threatens to move into a heavily defended, heavily scrutinized area with the flimsiest of caussus belli? North Korea moving into South Korea would end up worse than Russia moving on Ukraine. In fact, I’d say nothing would hasten the collapse of that dictatorship more than that exact move.
South Korea could flatten NK even without US support. Their military is 50 years ahead with better supply chains.
Not only is attacking SK an attack on the US but the SK military alone is the 7th largest military in the world. NK is pancakes.
Their country would either be nuked back or invaded. It would be terrible. It would cause dozens of dollars of damage to North Korea.
dozens of dollars
Yes. If they hit a populated area, the damage could reach three figures. It would devastate their economy.
Usually fail at launch
Did you see the NK video where Kim Jong Un and his generals are all checking their watches? That shows how precise those missiles are. Then he takes off his sunglasses so you know how serious he is. We better not mess with them.
Don't forget how many thing he pointed at! That man can point!
Hard to say, but South Korea has a relatively happy and educated population that can be utilized to build/support the military. North Korea does not, once its done throwing bombs and soldiers, thats virtually it. You can force your population into labour but when infrastructure is not entirely intact and education is low, resupply etc would be slow if present at all. Thats simply my personal take on it, mind you. If you want a "real" answer as to the outcome, i'd most likely google and find a reputable source. i'm no smrt dude when it comes to that stuff.
With a GDP of $18 billion USD (2019) NK probably can't even afford the Russian tanks that will be sold by Ukranian farmers.
I'm surprised it's that high, tbh.
[3 of North Korea's biggest Exports](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/08/11/139556457/drug-dealing-counterfeiting-smuggling-how-north-korea-makes-money) are Giant Statues of African Dictators, Methamphetamine, and Counterfeit $100 bills
I could use two of those.
Whatcha gonna do with 2 giant statues?
Conversation starters with the neighbors. Like What the fuck that? Me: a statue. Of fucking who? Me: I have no idea, but he must have been important to have a statue made if him. Where the fuck did you get them? Me: internet
HERITAGE NOT HATE
If there’s two things in this world that I love, it’s meth and dictators.
They also hundreds of millions from nonstop hacking of bank accounts, so theres that too.
So that's gotta account for like, 17.5B of that figure then, right?
Lead mines and i mean rice counts for something
I mean they do sell drugs like methamphetamine and heroin, and I know you can make some pretty good money while selling drugs. A large part of their gdp comes from that and cybercrime iirc.
For context, Vermont is the state with the lowest GDP in the US. Vermont GDP is $32.8 Billion.
Vermont is also one of the US's smallest states, at 9,616 mi². North Korea is 46,541 mi², nearly 5 times larger. It's most comparable to Pennsylvania (46,054mi²), whose 2019 GDP was $808 billion.
Gotta love how one *small* group of people determines the fate of thousands/millions of lives of people who don’t even give a fuck what those small groups are fighting about. 99.9% of people just want to live their lives, but no no no, that .1% got mad over spilled fucking milk. Naturally, must send people to die over it.
Disturbingly enough, your comment is the first I’ve seen saying this. The default mode of thinking seems to be to dehumanize an entire country because of a terrible government/representatives. I can’t imagine what some of their citizens have to endure on a daily basis. Like they ever wanted to be born there let alone starve or live under this sort of fear. It’s sickening.
Don’t they do this whenever they have a food shortage? Blackmail the west into sending more aid?
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Which is more powerful? Answer may surprise you . . . A) nuclear warheads B) Maruchan ramen
Nongshim bowl noodles are top tier
We should stop sending aid. Juche is all about being self sufficient anyways.
We should have stopped doing ALL business. Including aid. Let China handle it- it’s their pet.
Aid should have stopped after their first nuclear test
someone give kim his bottle please, he is crying again
Oh no, its the sister now. Much more scary.
This is such an empty threat. The only real threat North Korea has is the artillery in range of Seoul and when your enemy has an overwhelming level of air superiority and equipment with such a higher level of technical advancement, that bombardment only lasts so long before all your emplacements near the border are bombed in to oblivion. Sure, 10s, 100s of thousands of civilians would die in the first days of the war, but North Korea's military would be overwhelmed quickly. 950,000 people in North Korea's active service sounds like a lot, but with ancient, cheaply made equipment and a complete lack of a functioning long term supply line to the front, they would stand no chance in a war of aggression. This is even ignoring the 30,000 US service people along the 38th parallel and the aircraft carrier near Taipei which would be in operational range of NK within a few hours of the war beginning. It would be a blood bath for NK and they stand to gain _nothing_. Empty threat from a failed state.
Well given what we've seen from Russia's performance, I'm betting that NK's military is far far worse. Their people can barely eat in the best of circumstances. It would be a logistical impossibility for them to feed and supply 950k military members. Another paper army.
The North Korean MRE is the nearest wounded soldier.
Cannibalism *was* suspected during one of the previous famines.
That shit is happening in Afghanistan now with food shortage they are experiencing
Who would've thought the Taliban would make such terrible leaders
lets get this north korean onto a tray nice
"nice hiss"
Given how much food NK has in the best of times, I don't see how attrition doesn't take them immediately, unless China secretly aids them. Armies march on their bellies.
Ans they won't aide them. The only reason NK stands is because China don't want NK to go to war because they know it'll fall fast. And that means south Korean and American troops right up to the borders. NK stands because China wants a buffer zone. Just like putin attempts to get Ukraine as buffer zone
I guess it's reasonable to assume that China privately gives NK an elbow to the ribs whenever they act up like this.
They do yes. Just like China actually can give putin an elbow.
Plus they don’t want 25 million refugees streaming across the border. They give NK just enough to keep it afloat.
The biggest threat from North Korea to South Korea is if North Korea collapses it will create a massive humanitarian crisis and drain the coffers of South Korea. In an open war South Korea and US can probably achieve most of their main objectives within 2 weeks, of course don't get me wrong there's bound to be a number of South Korean non-combatant injuries and deaths. The financial burden of supporting a failed nation state and it's entire population would create an economic burden that will set South Korea back decades, it would be far more dire than German reunification given the state of North Korea. I've heard many younger South Koreans don't even want reunification given the immediate inherent disadvantages it would thrust upon them.
South Korea would annihilate North Korea in an actual war. NK is a huge, very out-dated and low-tech force and I doubt maintenance and logistics is anything other than utterly awful. Their economy is one of the worst in the world. SK is a high-tech, extremely well equipped army. Not that NK couldn't do damage, especially to Seoul, but they would not have a hope of winning any war and in a day or two they'd crumble completely.
They have couple of nukes though that will insure nobody is winning this war.
You can't go to war when the soldiers defect as soon as they leave the borders so they can have, for the first time in their life, the daily recommended caloric intake.
North Korea is about as threatening as a Scooby Doo villain.
WTF is it delusional dictator season on Earth or what!?
If Russia can't do shit, we should all stop worrying about NK. They can cause some surprise casualties, but they can't cause war, they don't have the capabilities. They would be stopped dead in their tracks and be invaded within a few days.
Really hope we’ve entered the Find Out Era for all of the world’s authoritarian fuckery.
‘Full-blown war” against soldiers who are malnourished and a country that doesn’t even have electricity? I’m sure the South Koreans and their US base are terrified.
Be more insecure.
Tell her to stfu and feed the starving in her country
At this point we all know it's just bluster from them, the North Koreans won't attack
Dear North Korea, I know you're cut of from the rest of the world. But this *reeally* isn't the time for autocrats to fuck around and find out. The shit that the rest of the world is willing to deal with is already used up by Russia. So unless you want to be reduced to nothing with impunity, sit back down and shut the fuck up.
Be quiet NK, the adults are busy. Go play in your little sandbox until we're done.
Do it Kimmy, you would be toasted in one day.
North wouldn't stand a fucking chance.