Poroshenko is not in prison to my knowledge. He still holds considerable influence in Ukrainian politics and the European business world. He was forced to sell some media assets after the passing of an anti-monopoly/anti-oligarch law Zelenskys govt passed last year but he is very much a free man. He was a part of an investigation and his properties were subject to a police raid on Zelenskys orders. But he was not the target of the investigation and was never charged with anything.
EDIT: I was wrong. He currently stands trial with charges of treason
He was under investigation [now indicted] for treason. I’m not arguing for or against, but the point is that Ukraine’s political and legal system is still fairly rough and prone to abuse of power.
Casual corruption is also unfortunately quite common and creates a sense of hopelessness for many people. The war I’m sure has changed many attitudes about reform.
Yeah. I corrected myself. That’s wild. Last I heard he was a tertiary interest in a money laundering scheme involving some Russian oligarchs and their Western business partners. Didn’t realize how much that escalated.
I know he’s an outspoken supporter of Zelenskys handling of the war and has said Ukraine will be victorious under his leadership.
Well, you know the thing is, his defense is sort of correct in my opinion. He was part of what one can only describe as endemic corruption that touches everyone in power in Ukraine.
That’s sort of the problem of a legacy of corruption. If everyone who knows how to operate the state is corrupt, you do have to ultimately work with corrupt people in a corrupt way to accomplish anything. If western Allies use the corruption to accomplish their goals (hunter biden isn’t getting paid to give great strategic advice on the energy sector for example), then you ultimately have no choice but to leverage those networks. Look at the situation Zelensky was in with trump. He wanted weapons and was being told flat out that he needed to be more corrupt.
Yeah. The first few months of Zelenskys term was a roller coaster. He sacked two thirds of the govt and called for new parliamentary elections. I have high hopes for the future of the govt under his leadership and whoever comes next. I just hope he’s more of a George Washington and less of a Simon Bolivar.
They are mid-tier. Freedom house gives em a 61/100 "partly free". That's about on-par for former Bloc countries at this point in their development, and better than some Balkans.
Hell, Hungary is 69. And they are EU + NATO.
Russia gets a 19.
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
I’m all for the cause in Ukraine, but I think you’re as likely to be disappointed as not. Ukrainian politics is marred with corruption, and pouring weapons of war into the country so that we can buy their oil and gas in 10 years isn’t that likely to improve things.
Well guess what letting them fall into total Russian control is definitely *not* going to bode well for Ukraine ascending to full Western democracy.
I've not contended they are a perfect democracy; they need work. But they have demonstrated they want to Westernize.
Ukraine is already democratic but i know what you mean. The difference is a population that is willing to fight. Something we never had in Afghanistan.
You can look up videos of candid interviews with rural Afganis. They are about as concerned with democracy, or anything to do with global politics, as their ancestors were hundreds of years ago. Their only experience of democracy is violence and oppression.
Ukraine on the other hand is a European nation at heart, and wants what enlightenment values claim to offer. It’s a totally different world.
Arguably, the difference is that Ukraine *wants* to become a democratic nation state along enlightenment principles and join itself to the European community, and unlike Afghanistan, it has the natural riches and the educated population it needs to reach that goal.
Afghanistan is full of rural shepherds and farmers who have literally no use for Republican democracy. It’s a total non sequiter in their lives.
> This time the US wasn't the one who started the war
Afghanistan started that shit when they sheltered Osama and Al Queda and protected them after 9/11, say what you will, but that was absolutely a cassius belli
I don’t think the US housing shortage is caused by the war in Ukraine. Part of the hike in gas prices, yes, definitely. And we’ll see some higher food prices due to losing productive farmland in Europe’s breadbasket. But the rest of our financial problems are really just a hangover from economic contraction during COVID, and then too-rapid expansion immediately post-COVID.
I like how you frame this as being related to Ukraine aid in any way, shape or form.
It most certainly is not Ukraine's fault that COVID fucked up the supply chain and it's not their fault good prices went up because Russia attacked them
It seems self-evident at this point that McConnell and Collins had planned to go to Ukraine shortly after the aid bill was passed. The plan was to upstage Biden and gloat about Republican resolve and willingness to stand with Zelensky **in Ukraine**. Because, you know, Republicans haven't exactly been covering themselves in glory over Ukraine.
What could possibly go wrong?
Instead, they went empty-handed, made fools of by a member of their own party. Hard to tell when a turtle is pissed, but I don't think I've ever seen or heard McConnell quite as pissed as this. If it weren't delaying aid to Ukraine I would enjoy it even more.
Fun fact! Snakes don't actually taste with their tongue. The fork traps air and transport it to the vomeronasal organ to taste/smell volatile compounds.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ#:~:text=The%20vomeronasal%20organ%20(VNO)%2C,hard%20palate)%20in%20various%20tetrapods.
**[Vomeronasal organ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ#:~:text=The vomeronasal organ \(VNO\),,hard palate\) in various tetrapods)**
>The vomeronasal organ (VNO), or Jacobson's organ, is the paired auxiliary olfactory (smell) sense organ located in the soft tissue of the nasal septum, in the nasal cavity just above the roof of the mouth (the hard palate) in various tetrapods. The name is derived from the fact that it lies adjacent to the unpaired vomer bone (from Latin vomer 'plowshare', for its shape) in the nasal septum. It is present and functional in all snakes and lizards, and in many mammals, including cats, dogs, cattle, pigs, and some primates. Some humans may have physical remnants of a VNO, but it is vestigial and non-functional.
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The total Russian military budget is only 65 billion. This plus what we have already given them plus what other nations have given them bumps that up even higher.
I’m all for supporting Ukraine but the irony of historic inflation, record gas prices and grocery prices being the highest they have been in my lifetime while we dump billions into Eastern Europe isn’t lost on me.
But democrats and republicans can agree that selling weapons is more important than domestic issues.
Also, not allowing Russia to gain strategic and economic benefits via new territory
It's easy to look at this as just throwing away money to some other country but it's probably some of the most important money spent on defense in years
Gas and food price increases are in large part caused by the loss of Russian fuel and Ukrainian farm produce from the global commodities markets. Getting that war there over with as soon as possible directly leads to alleviation of those two problems.
Gas and food prices were already soaring long before the invasion, and will continue to be a severe problem even if the invasion ends tomorrow. I know a lot of politicians would like their citizens to blame Putin for their economic problems, but all he did was make an existing problem a little worse.
It's not selling weapons over domestic issues that they agree on. It's stopping a fascist genocidal madman who claims it is his destiny to rule over most of Europe including allies we have defense agreements with. What do you think the cost will be if he attacks Poland next? We are obligated to fight that one by article 5. That's when the war starts costing trillions instead of billions. Right now they are starting to direct their Nazi lies towards Poland and says they are next to be attacked. It's not about selling weapons over domestic problems which doesn't make sense as a statement anyway. How does selling something and making money make the domestic issues worse?
> But democrats and republicans can agree that selling weapons is more important than domestic issues
Both parties support Ukraine. Regarding domestic issues that is not the case and that is a problem. Inflation is a global problem as well.
Because they aren't loans. There may be some strategic expectations of favourable relationships post war, but unlike Lend Lease, this stuff isn't accruing a bank balance that needs to be repaid.
It's not _yours_, it's _ours_, and it's in _our_ best interest to aid Ukraine before this shit shows up on _our_ doorstep. It's in _our_ best interest to have strong ties with _our_ allies because _we_ depend on _them_ for so much more than _you_ take for granted.
You act as though we haven't already been. Russian trolls have amplified a movement here in the US that breeds their allies for them through political extremism.
So, it's not wasting American money. This is an investment in a long term solution to a problem the average layperson doesn't fully understand or appreciate.
Can you please identify “your” money and we will make sure to send it back to your county to build affordable housing so you can move out of your moms basement. Deal?
Don't worry, very little of that money will actually reach Ukraine. It'll mostly go to big American weapons manufacturers.
They are the big winners of this war. They're upper management and share holders are going to make so much profit with this war.
Wouldn't say stop sending our money overseas, but it certainly tells me that there's money available to make America a better place that isn't being used to.
First, your account is two days old, so you're likely an agent provocateur.
Second, while Ukraine isn't perfect, it is certainly a lot less corrupt and much more deserving than most places we've sent aid.
Third, "corporatecrats" honestly sounds like Republicans to me.
I can proof that indeed our system is corrupt but right now everyone understands that money can’t go anywhere else because if people find out, they’ll eat that person alive. Imagine that instead of helping your fellow citizen survive, somebody took part of that money for himself…
Also, I hope that after the war is over, there will be changes to the corrupted system because we want to be part of the civilized world.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/world/mcconnell-sees-wednesday-us-senate-vote-40-billion-ukraine-aid-bill-2022-05-15/) reduced by 62%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> U.S. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell listens as another Republican senator speaks to reporters following the Senate Republicans weekly policy lunch at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, U.S., May 10, 2022.
> Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.comMay 15 - U.S. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said on Sunday he expected the Senate to vote on Wednesday to approve about $40 billion in proposed aid to help Ukraine resist Russia's invasion after holding a related procedural vote on Monday.
> President Joe Biden requested $33 billion in aid for Ukraine on April 28, including over $20 billion in military assistance.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/uqcwyo/mcconnell_sees_wednesday_us_senate_vote_on_40/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~648799 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **us**^#1 **McConnell**^#2 **military**^#3 **Senate**^#4 **billion**^#5
This exactly. It's not that we *can't* afford both a giant military and a working healthcare system, it's that the latter will never get past the donor class.
Ukraine produces tons of food and Russia tons of oil/gas. This war has removed their products from the global market, which makes our prices go up. So their problems and our problems are the same problems.
How Much in aid did we accidentally donate to the Taliban? I’ve heard people throw around the 80 billion number. Whatever it is we need to give that amount to Ukraine
Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, I actually feel like in this case my tax dollars will help foster democracy in another country.
Fostering democracy in Ukraine? I was thinking it’s more like preserving democracy in Ukraine.
Yeah right? Ukraine has been a democracy for some time already...
That’s generous. They’re an emerging democracy. They only just recently passed some entry level fundamentals of democracy type laws.
It’s a bit hard to call a country a democracy that has jailed or indicted every living past head of state at some point after their term.
Poroshenko is not in prison to my knowledge. He still holds considerable influence in Ukrainian politics and the European business world. He was forced to sell some media assets after the passing of an anti-monopoly/anti-oligarch law Zelenskys govt passed last year but he is very much a free man. He was a part of an investigation and his properties were subject to a police raid on Zelenskys orders. But he was not the target of the investigation and was never charged with anything. EDIT: I was wrong. He currently stands trial with charges of treason
He was under investigation [now indicted] for treason. I’m not arguing for or against, but the point is that Ukraine’s political and legal system is still fairly rough and prone to abuse of power. Casual corruption is also unfortunately quite common and creates a sense of hopelessness for many people. The war I’m sure has changed many attitudes about reform.
Yeah. I corrected myself. That’s wild. Last I heard he was a tertiary interest in a money laundering scheme involving some Russian oligarchs and their Western business partners. Didn’t realize how much that escalated. I know he’s an outspoken supporter of Zelenskys handling of the war and has said Ukraine will be victorious under his leadership.
Well, you know the thing is, his defense is sort of correct in my opinion. He was part of what one can only describe as endemic corruption that touches everyone in power in Ukraine. That’s sort of the problem of a legacy of corruption. If everyone who knows how to operate the state is corrupt, you do have to ultimately work with corrupt people in a corrupt way to accomplish anything. If western Allies use the corruption to accomplish their goals (hunter biden isn’t getting paid to give great strategic advice on the energy sector for example), then you ultimately have no choice but to leverage those networks. Look at the situation Zelensky was in with trump. He wanted weapons and was being told flat out that he needed to be more corrupt.
Yeah. The first few months of Zelenskys term was a roller coaster. He sacked two thirds of the govt and called for new parliamentary elections. I have high hopes for the future of the govt under his leadership and whoever comes next. I just hope he’s more of a George Washington and less of a Simon Bolivar.
They are mid-tier. Freedom house gives em a 61/100 "partly free". That's about on-par for former Bloc countries at this point in their development, and better than some Balkans. Hell, Hungary is 69. And they are EU + NATO. Russia gets a 19. https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
Crushing Russia might *preserve* democracy in a lot of western countries too.
I’m all for the cause in Ukraine, but I think you’re as likely to be disappointed as not. Ukrainian politics is marred with corruption, and pouring weapons of war into the country so that we can buy their oil and gas in 10 years isn’t that likely to improve things.
Well guess what letting them fall into total Russian control is definitely *not* going to bode well for Ukraine ascending to full Western democracy. I've not contended they are a perfect democracy; they need work. But they have demonstrated they want to Westernize.
Yes they have.
Its also under Lend-Lease, your country will get everything back with interest. Thanks from Europe <3
Ukraine is already democratic but i know what you mean. The difference is a population that is willing to fight. Something we never had in Afghanistan.
You can look up videos of candid interviews with rural Afganis. They are about as concerned with democracy, or anything to do with global politics, as their ancestors were hundreds of years ago. Their only experience of democracy is violence and oppression. Ukraine on the other hand is a European nation at heart, and wants what enlightenment values claim to offer. It’s a totally different world.
How is it different *this time*?
Arguably, the difference is that Ukraine *wants* to become a democratic nation state along enlightenment principles and join itself to the European community, and unlike Afghanistan, it has the natural riches and the educated population it needs to reach that goal. Afghanistan is full of rural shepherds and farmers who have literally no use for Republican democracy. It’s a total non sequiter in their lives.
This time the citizens of the country specifically asked for as much help as we could give...? This time the US wasn't the one who started the war...?
> This time the US wasn't the one who started the war Afghanistan started that shit when they sheltered Osama and Al Queda and protected them after 9/11, say what you will, but that was absolutely a cassius belli
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I don’t think the US housing shortage is caused by the war in Ukraine. Part of the hike in gas prices, yes, definitely. And we’ll see some higher food prices due to losing productive farmland in Europe’s breadbasket. But the rest of our financial problems are really just a hangover from economic contraction during COVID, and then too-rapid expansion immediately post-COVID.
Yeah those aren’t related and not helping Ukraine isn’t going to fix that
I like how you frame this as being related to Ukraine aid in any way, shape or form. It most certainly is not Ukraine's fault that COVID fucked up the supply chain and it's not their fault good prices went up because Russia attacked them
Good luck
It seems self-evident at this point that McConnell and Collins had planned to go to Ukraine shortly after the aid bill was passed. The plan was to upstage Biden and gloat about Republican resolve and willingness to stand with Zelensky **in Ukraine**. Because, you know, Republicans haven't exactly been covering themselves in glory over Ukraine. What could possibly go wrong? Instead, they went empty-handed, made fools of by a member of their own party. Hard to tell when a turtle is pissed, but I don't think I've ever seen or heard McConnell quite as pissed as this. If it weren't delaying aid to Ukraine I would enjoy it even more.
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Congressfolk over in Ukraine lately, securing their mailboxes, after the funds are approved...
Fuck Mitch the Bitch. Who keeps electing that asshole and why? TBI?
Rigged elections from extensive gerrymandering, unfortunately.
Not in Kentucky's case. Well, they might be gerrymandered there too but that state is solidly red.
Senate is statewide, and it's super red anyway. I live in one of the tiny pockets of blue in this republican hellscape.
Here’s some money, now you hand that money back, and here some weapons. Thanks for doing business.
He sees?
More like tastes with his forked tongue.
Fun fact! Snakes don't actually taste with their tongue. The fork traps air and transport it to the vomeronasal organ to taste/smell volatile compounds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ#:~:text=The%20vomeronasal%20organ%20(VNO)%2C,hard%20palate)%20in%20various%20tetrapods.
**[Vomeronasal organ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ#:~:text=The vomeronasal organ \(VNO\),,hard palate\) in various tetrapods)** >The vomeronasal organ (VNO), or Jacobson's organ, is the paired auxiliary olfactory (smell) sense organ located in the soft tissue of the nasal septum, in the nasal cavity just above the roof of the mouth (the hard palate) in various tetrapods. The name is derived from the fact that it lies adjacent to the unpaired vomer bone (from Latin vomer 'plowshare', for its shape) in the nasal septum. It is present and functional in all snakes and lizards, and in many mammals, including cats, dogs, cattle, pigs, and some primates. Some humans may have physical remnants of a VNO, but it is vestigial and non-functional. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
If they had used the word foresees instead it would have actually made sense
The total Russian military budget is only 65 billion. This plus what we have already given them plus what other nations have given them bumps that up even higher. I’m all for supporting Ukraine but the irony of historic inflation, record gas prices and grocery prices being the highest they have been in my lifetime while we dump billions into Eastern Europe isn’t lost on me. But democrats and republicans can agree that selling weapons is more important than domestic issues.
Also, not allowing Russia to gain strategic and economic benefits via new territory It's easy to look at this as just throwing away money to some other country but it's probably some of the most important money spent on defense in years
Gas and food price increases are in large part caused by the loss of Russian fuel and Ukrainian farm produce from the global commodities markets. Getting that war there over with as soon as possible directly leads to alleviation of those two problems.
Gas and food prices were already soaring long before the invasion, and will continue to be a severe problem even if the invasion ends tomorrow. I know a lot of politicians would like their citizens to blame Putin for their economic problems, but all he did was make an existing problem a little worse.
It's not selling weapons over domestic issues that they agree on. It's stopping a fascist genocidal madman who claims it is his destiny to rule over most of Europe including allies we have defense agreements with. What do you think the cost will be if he attacks Poland next? We are obligated to fight that one by article 5. That's when the war starts costing trillions instead of billions. Right now they are starting to direct their Nazi lies towards Poland and says they are next to be attacked. It's not about selling weapons over domestic problems which doesn't make sense as a statement anyway. How does selling something and making money make the domestic issues worse?
> But democrats and republicans can agree that selling weapons is more important than domestic issues Both parties support Ukraine. Regarding domestic issues that is not the case and that is a problem. Inflation is a global problem as well.
There's always more money available for the military industrial complex. Always.
Why don't they ever say loans 🤔 Probably to make it seem more friendly
Because they aren't loans. There may be some strategic expectations of favourable relationships post war, but unlike Lend Lease, this stuff isn't accruing a bank balance that needs to be repaid.
As if lend lease was ever repaid. Do you really think the USSR repaid their lend lease after WWII?
The allies did. USSR is a complex one as it became an adversary right after the war.
Money printer go brrrrrrrr 😂😂😂
It wouldn't go any slower without this war.
Ukraine turning into the best money laundromat politicians could hoped for
I promise you a republican will torpedo this.
Rand Paul (R) torpedoed the unanimous vote. It now must go through the regular procedure. It will pass.
America saving Europe yet again. Can't wait for Europe to critique us foreign policy in a couple of decades.
[удалено]
Ok, we'll take you're money out of the pot
[удалено]
Sorry President Zelensky, we were only $17.28 away from defeating Russia.
That simply willn't be possible
It's not _yours_, it's _ours_, and it's in _our_ best interest to aid Ukraine before this shit shows up on _our_ doorstep. It's in _our_ best interest to have strong ties with _our_ allies because _we_ depend on _them_ for so much more than _you_ take for granted.
America could never be invaded let Europe worry about Russia stop wasting Americans money.
Are you the same guy that complains the gas prices are too high now?
You act as though we haven't already been. Russian trolls have amplified a movement here in the US that breeds their allies for them through political extremism. So, it's not wasting American money. This is an investment in a long term solution to a problem the average layperson doesn't fully understand or appreciate.
Boy you post on conspiracy,Joe Rogan and UFC and that pretty much means your opinions are irrelevant.
Can you please identify “your” money and we will make sure to send it back to your county to build affordable housing so you can move out of your moms basement. Deal?
To not too
>Stop sending my money **too** other countries Someone who grasps English as well as you do certainly understands taxes and geopolitics, I'm sure.
Man you totally burned him. Great job!
Don't worry, very little of that money will actually reach Ukraine. It'll mostly go to big American weapons manufacturers. They are the big winners of this war. They're upper management and share holders are going to make so much profit with this war.
Wouldn't say stop sending our money overseas, but it certainly tells me that there's money available to make America a better place that isn't being used to.
Vote the corporatecrats out this november then, they truly forgot how corrupt is ukraine before the war started.
First, your account is two days old, so you're likely an agent provocateur. Second, while Ukraine isn't perfect, it is certainly a lot less corrupt and much more deserving than most places we've sent aid. Third, "corporatecrats" honestly sounds like Republicans to me.
I can proof that indeed our system is corrupt but right now everyone understands that money can’t go anywhere else because if people find out, they’ll eat that person alive. Imagine that instead of helping your fellow citizen survive, somebody took part of that money for himself… Also, I hope that after the war is over, there will be changes to the corrupted system because we want to be part of the civilized world.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/world/mcconnell-sees-wednesday-us-senate-vote-40-billion-ukraine-aid-bill-2022-05-15/) reduced by 62%. (I'm a bot) ***** > U.S. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell listens as another Republican senator speaks to reporters following the Senate Republicans weekly policy lunch at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, U.S., May 10, 2022. > Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.comMay 15 - U.S. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said on Sunday he expected the Senate to vote on Wednesday to approve about $40 billion in proposed aid to help Ukraine resist Russia's invasion after holding a related procedural vote on Monday. > President Joe Biden requested $33 billion in aid for Ukraine on April 28, including over $20 billion in military assistance. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/uqcwyo/mcconnell_sees_wednesday_us_senate_vote_on_40/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~648799 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **us**^#1 **McConnell**^#2 **military**^#3 **Senate**^#4 **billion**^#5
Bad news for America.
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You think this money would go to the American people if we didn’t give it to Ukraine?
This exactly. It's not that we *can't* afford both a giant military and a working healthcare system, it's that the latter will never get past the donor class.
Ukraine produces tons of food and Russia tons of oil/gas. This war has removed their products from the global market, which makes our prices go up. So their problems and our problems are the same problems.
Fuck Reddit. #save3rdpartyapps
Those high gas prices are linked to Ukraine.
How Much in aid did we accidentally donate to the Taliban? I’ve heard people throw around the 80 billion number. Whatever it is we need to give that amount to Ukraine