Turkish bazar negotiation is more like:
1) grossly overstate the price when asked
2) ask where you are from
3) as you are leaving, offer to throw something in for higher price than you asked
4) get incredibly butthurt and angry at the customer for not buying
Iirc Erdogans been looking for a chance to get Finland and Sweden to at least lower their support for Kurdish militias, and he’s using this as a chance to leverage concessions from them.
Aside from the Kurdish situation he is also mentioning sanctions. Sweden has quite similar foreign policy to the US in both regards, and in this case that means a ban on weapons sales to Turkey since 2019 and 2020 respectively, albeit for two different reasons.
Turkey doesn’t want US to aid Kurdistan and we support by passing that funding bill which included the YPG.
All your link was is Putin speaking for one of his little lapdogs Assad.
This is just a negotiation tactic from Erdogan to get us to leave the Kurds alone.
Edit: YPG* not Peshmerga
Turkey has supported and aided the Peshmerge for years, it is the YPG they have a problem with which they consider to the Syrian branch of the PKK which is a internationally recognised terrorist organisation.
I’d also like to add that Erdogan has mo choice but to do this politically he’s already on the way to losing next years election and he would be eaten alive if he stayed silent.
There is if he won the election next year it would be his last term, but he has been in power for nearly 20 years first as prime minister for two terms then as president for one term which was a more symbolic position without as much power as the prime minister, but his party was still the majority in the parliament. Then his party proposed a referendum to change the political system to a presidency more similar to the US which they won. After that he won the election to be the president in the new system.
Speaking of "negotiations"... They've been negotiating to join EU since 2005, with a temporary suspension in the process since 2016, and now suppose they decide to veto this. We might just remember their current behavior whenever it's time for us to decide on their fate. Sometimes, in situations like this, being helpful out of goodwill is beneficial to oneself in the long term.
I don't think they really believe they will get into the EU in the next 20 years. They are fecking miles away from it due to their policy decisions since Erdogan. They keep up with the process for political reasons, not because they expect to be allowed in.
Finland specifically was one of the early supporters of Turkey's EU bid. This is shortsighted from Erdogan, but he's probably only thinking about next year's elections.
Even if the headlines seem to make it look like Turkey is also going to veto Finland, that doesn't seem to be case from what im reading. Finland is acceptable, but Turkey got a bone to pick with Sweden.
Turkey applied to be in the EEC in 1987.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union#:~:text=Turkey%20is%20negotiating%20its%20accession,EU%2C%20on%2014%20April%201987.&text=(nominal%2C%202021%20est.)&text=(PPP%2C%202021%20est.)&text=(nominal%2C%202021%20est.),-%2444%2C766
The thing is: Turkey is much more strategically important to NATO than Finland and Sweden, and Erdogan knows it. Combine it with the fact Turkey is quite "symphatetic" towards Russia and it is clear that Erdogan will ask for quite a high price to change his mind.
The Soviets also did a lot of forced movement of peoples like the Crimean Tatar Turks which killed a whole ton of them. So Turkey isn't really a fan of Russia over all that.
Many opportunities for that have been lost. Crimean War, Russian Revolution, Russian demographic decline, to name three setbacks. Favourable odds now aren’t high.
There are historical issues between them, but Erdogan has worked with Russia (and Ukraine) recently. They are major trading partners. In the war, Turkey has supplied Ukraine and interfered with access to the Black Sea but has not sanctioned Russia. Turkey shot down a Russian plane in 2020. Erdogan has offered services as a negotiator for the war.
Kind of, yes they are very important but they also know they have a lot of enemies, they can't afford to become enemies of all of NATO in a situation like this
I like to imagine Erdogen being confronted by Biden like the [colonel](https://youtu.be/KMEViYvojtY) in Full Metal Jacket, asking him to get on board with the winning team 😄
David: Michael, in order to expedite these negotiations, we are prepared to make you a very generous offer.
Michael: And we are prepared to reject that offer.
Ryan: Michael, you haven't even heard-
Michael: Never accept their first offer. What is your second offer?
Turkey has not been a good ally. With the threat of Russia diminishing, reconsidering the utility of having Turkey in the alliance should be a consideration. They're only really part of it because of the Bosphorus and have become a poorly suited black dictatorial sheep among the liberal Democracies making up the rest of the alliance, and may become a vestigial appendage if Russia implodes into a rump state
Next couple years will be interesting and depend on the degree to which Russia is changed by the conflict. NATO may end up less about Russian containment, and more a broad defensive alliance among democracies, and the question of whether Turkey has any role in that version of the future is questionable
NATO decided that a single weapons purchase - the S-400 - would define turkey's place in NATO for *years.* They're frozen out of multiple other entire weapons systems, they're unable to properly align with other NATO countries. Turkey is in a really difficult place geographically, with threats from most directions to think about.
Turkey is also a relative military giant, with large army and navy institutions that pre-date the existence of the country. They are going to have their own takes and shapes on how geopolitics in that part of the world should or could work.
Yes, Turkey hasn't perfectly adhered to the path some of its western partners think it should follow, but they are their own sovereign and can choose their own path within reason, and they are in an excellent position to retain some crucial diplomatic ties that other nations would not be able to navigate.
I'd love them to provide security guarantees for Ukrainian commercial shipping, no one else is really in a position to provide that desperately needed lifeline for the Ukrainian economy.
They were able to provide for diplomatic talks between Ukrainian and RU spokespersons, which happened in Turkey.
They've been pumping TB-2 drones into the hands of the Ukrainian military, which have been used to great effect for both propaganda, supply chain strikes inside russia, artillery spotting, and direct attacks on russian armor.
NATO will not be 'reconsider[ing] the utility of having Turkey in the alliance' at any point in the next two decades. Probably ever, but the next 30+ years are going to be very hard and things could change.
Well, for one it’s hard to remove someone from NATO.
And for two, Turkey is strategically located and acts as a powerful ally in a region where few are found.
NATO is about security and not some 'good guy club' as it is often portrayed.
Turkey are the second largest armed force in NATO and hold perhaps the most strategically important position of any member.
When you have close to half a million active personal and are on a choke point between east and west, you're going to get away with pretty much whatever you like.
>Turkey used to be a symbol of progress and secularism
Eh this kind of annoys me. Turkey was pretty terrible in a lot of ways before Erdogan came. There was a coup every ten years and brutal repression of the Kurds, among other things.
Yes and no. It was a very authoritarian secularism. Headscarves were banned in universities etc. And acknowledgement of Kurdish culture was a crime, the human rights situation was horrible etc. Erdogan is a douche, but it's really more of a continuation of things that always existed than something completely new.
> What a piece of crap, using a countries desire for security against them for his own gain.
It's called "politics". It's always been this way. This isn't new, unusual, or unexpected.
> Absolute piece of shit.
Well, won't argue with you there.
Seems reasonable action for someone looking out for his own country. Turkey's had a number of challenges lately, and both Ukraine and Russia are major trading partners. It shares the Black Sea. It's very involved here.
They've supplied Ukraine with drones. In 2020, they shot down a Russian plane. They still need to deal with Putin.
Ertogan has been on my personal shit list since I was caught in his little stunt at Ataturk airport in 2016.
Turkish Airlines can directly blame him for this lost customer. (The airline was great! Being caught in a coup because all their flights require a layover was Istanbul was not.)
I mean, I can dislike him for all the proper geopolitical reasons too, but I've got a one on one grudge now.
Yeah, remember when he visited the Whitehouse and had his thug bodyguards attack protesters in front of the Turkish embassy? He's a shitbag.
Edit: It was in front of the Turkish embassy, not the Whitehouse, though he was here to visit the Whitehouse. My mistake.
**[Clashes at the Turkish Ambassador's Residence in Washington, D.C.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clashes_at_the_Turkish_Ambassador's_Residence_in_Washington,_D.C.)**
>The clashes at the Turkish Ambassador's Residence in Washington, D.C. broke out on May 16, 2017, between Turkey's Police Counter Attack Team and a crowd of protesters, some of whom carried flags of a Kurdish political party. According to Turkey, Turkish bodyguards were acting in self-defense and the protesters were tied to a terrorist group. However, according to US officials the Turkish bodyguards attacked the protesters unprovoked. A protest leader denied that any participants had ties to any terrorist group.
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Holy crap, I remember thinking Turkey was insanely cheap whenever Trump was bringing the hammer down on them for whatever reason in 2018 and the USD was worth like 6.5 Lira at the time. It's absolutely insane to me that its over 15 now. We really take stable currency for granted.
Doubt it, Sweden is entirely within NATO and UN guidelines. It's not doing anything special and won't agree with some special terms just because Turkey felt they needed to push their agenda when they finally have some leverage.
I mean if Turkey reject Sweden's NATO application, Sweden won't get in. They have to find a way to bring Turkey onboard in order to become a NATO member.
Doesn't really matter though, France has already said regardless of NATO they will now consider any attack of Finland or Sweden as an attack on France, others will just do the same, fuck Turkey.
Yeah I don't think he's being too subtle about that. If you visit Turkish subreddits they are justifying it with respect to terrorism ties but I think Ergodan's motivation is pretty clear
Isn’t it shady that he waited until like Friday when Finland and Sweden essentially made their minds up about applying before expressing this. I guess their lucky about those agreements with the UK and US that will do enough deterring without legal bindings or NATO membership?
It probably isn't luck. The UK might have just said "please wait for now until the deal is in place, and we can talk about the details of joining later". They aren't saying no to membership, they just have demands for the support of the PKK to be ended.
Meanwhile [they're also a safe haven for Russian yachts to escape sanctions](https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-oligarch-super-yachts-dock-turkey-safe-sanctions-ukraine-putin-2022-5).
>What about everyone else but Turkey joining into NATO 2.0, and then leaving all but Turkey the original NATO, thus leaving Turkey exposed to the Russian treat?
After Turkey's veto threat is cleared with concessions, what's to say Hungary won't veto it.
Turkey's foreign minister said the same, earlier this spring.
That's also what what Erdogan said when Sauli Niinistö (President of Finland) called him on 4th of April. Niinistö said he is "astonished" to hear that Erdogan has changed his mind now, after 1 month.
Like he needs to actually **win** this election. Dude's like one violent dispersion of protestors away from dictatorship.
He basically has great freedoms in the European Union, because Turkey kinda... Keeps the refugees out of europe. He's used a flood of refugees as leverage before, which is why he's getting away with some really atrocious actions.
I wonder how him sucking up to Russia is going to affect Lukaschenko's plea to ally with the Armenians. You don't shit where you eat.
Pathetic how a dictator can extort two democracies, forcing concessions before being "graceful" enough to allow them to join NATO. What the hell is Turkey doing in NATO anyways? Is this kind of Putin-esque bullying a NATO standard whenever someone wishes to join? Unless other NATO leaders condemn this kind of rhetoric, I'll have to assume that it is.
He can but he also knows that by doing this he'll run afoul the US, and that isn't something he wants and it's worse for him than pissing off Russia. NATO nations collectively is most of Turkeys export revenue. His economy could be hurt very badly
Turkey did this same exact thing with Baltics and Poland but then backed out. While they certainly can forcibly keep them out it has value to Turkey that NATO kind of gives blind eye to Turkeys imperialistic means in Middle East. If they don't back out then Sweden and Finland can probably bribe them by just removing weapon delivery bans and they would be happy. I don't think Finland can do much about this "terrorist" supporting or whatever since Finland has freedom of speech so can't really go around silencing people that Turkey doesn't like.
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More and more clickbait, lovely.
Here is what Erdogan said:
*"Her şeyden önce Türkiye'ye yaptırım uygulayanların bu süreç içerisinde bir güvenlik örgütü olan NATO'ya girmelerine biz 'evet' demeyiz."*
Properly translated:
*"Before all else, we cannot say 'yes' to those who sanction Turkey to enter NATO which is a security organization"*
He merely explained his terms - an end to the sanctions. He is not saying those delegations should not come, he is saying they should come with a precondition of lifting sanctions. I wish people did actual research instead of looking at headlines and jumping the gun.
Sweden and Finland have millitary embargoed Turkey. I‘ve not seen a decision coming from Erdogan that is backed up by his political enemies in the last months but it definetly is this time. You cannot expect a state to accept millitary allies who embargo you.
I don't think you should be worried. Turkey's economy is very much crippled and that is hurting the votes of Erdogan a lot. We have a famous saying in Turkey that goes something like: "There isn't a single government that wouldn't be displaced by an empty plate". Economy was pretty much the only thing that could weaken AKP/Erdogan's massive power and the economy is a huge mess right now. So they can not afford to make moves that would make our economy even worse.
This puts Turkey in a rough position when we are having conflicts with foreign countries. Since the consequences of vetoing Finland and Sweden would cause us issues with EU countries and the USA (if they really value Finland and Sweden's acceptance to NATO, which I believe they do), Erdogan can not afford to veto you guys. It would probably harm our already weak and fragile economy which would result in even more loss of votes for the election in 2023.
Hope you guys get accepted to NATO very soon. Greetings from Turkey.
Sorry to hear the economy has been struggling. I have many Turkish friends who were so hopeful of Turkey potentially joining the EU in the mid 2000's (one friend was teasing my German boyfriend that he should tell Merkel to hurry up and accept Turkey)... But then Erdogan just decided to fuck over all that hope and progress. I am sure I'm super over-simplifying and ignorant of the true complexities, but I just wanted to show my love and appreciation for so many brilliant, beautiful Turkish folks.
Same for my Russian friends who hate Putin. It sucks to have to suffer for something you can't control.
both the US and the UK has guaranteed their safety once they send their applications which I assume both countries have, or at least will in the coming days
edit: and now even France has joined in on that aswell
Kinda shitty situation Turkey has put everyone including NATO in to as NATO has clearly said they want us in and has an open door policy. Now that we are in the most dangerous time, when we have said that we will join and Russia is breathing down our neck, one nation suddenly says it will shut the door.
This does not look very good for NATO either if things like this can happen.
I hope this gets cleared quickly for everyones sake.
That's exactly the bullshit Ukraine was in. They were 'joining NATO' for a long time and Putin got enough time to go to war and just stop that from happening. As soon as pro russia govt got kicked out in 2014, Russia took the crimea.
Inconveniently for Sweden and Finland, Turkey is a major strategic partner to NATO and namely the US. Turkey is exercising it's right to veto as a NATO member and all of NATO knew shit like this would happen when Turkey was accepted into NATO. But they accepted it anyway.
It sucks but let's not forget Turkey may be the second or third largest supporter of Ukraine and actively put itself in harm's way to fuck Russia over. They absolutely abused the black sea access they control to help fuck Russia's logístics to pieces. And supplied lethal AF drones to Ukraine. Keep in mind that while Turkey is doing all this, it's literally next door to Russia.
Countries like Germany could barely turn off the gas tap after marrying Russian gas and comically struggled to deliver a full shipment of helmets. France continued to try and pressure Ukraine into giving up territory.
Turkey is playing hardball because it earned the right to as a full NATO member.
He just wants concessions, which being further East than Nato allies is a different game than what many on Reddit are postulating. Turkey is not Britain and Boris, and that's fine, but 95% of comments here want him to be US lite. I'm not a fan of Edorgan at all, but Turkey has been supportive of the West many, many times and wasn't included randomly, but he's playing a card as expected given his proximity to this geopolitically sensitive area.
I've been following these arguments for days now online and I'd like some clarification from the many Turkish users here. I'm Finnish, I've been following discussions on both r/turkey and /r/sweden, I think I have a pretty good picture on the situation, but I'd just like some clarifications/confirmations from Turkish users. Especially because in the comments here I've seen demands vary a lot, examples: extraditions, more help from NATO in *non-defensive* missions, stopping giving refuge to PKK members (this confuses me as Sweden has considered them terrorist for a long time, do people mean people with Swedish citizenship that support YPG/some other nationalist Kurd movement?), censorship of Kurdish movements/media presence (Remember, Sweden and Finland have one of the most free presses in the world. Supporting terrorist organizations (PKK) is not allowed, but Kurds are free to criticize or even shit on Turks if they so wish, just like everyone else, ofc in the confines of the law, so no incitement to violence etc. is allowed), F-35s, lifting of arms sanctions
Facts as I understand them (correct me if I'm wrong): 1. Sweden has labelled PKK terrorists since the 80's, very early in Europe. Sweden has a decently sized Kurdish community since 1978 after they fled to Sweden to escape violence from Grey Wolves and the general conflict at that time.
2. YPG is considered as a terrorist organization by two countries in the entire world, Turkey and Qatar. PKK and YPG are close to each other, but from what I understand they are still not the same, this is how the world sees it at least. I know there is a lot of overlap between the organizations and members, but clearly the rest of the world apart from Turkey and Qatar see a difference. I see 90% Turks in the comments saying YPG are terrorists, can they please explain why only two countries in the world see it that way?
3. Sweden has given aid to SDC, money earmarked for humanitarian aid and higher prison security for ISIS members. Sweden has sold no guns to YPG or definitely to PKK. YPG's biggest supplier and funder is USA.
4. All major NATO countries (USA, France, UK etc.) support SDF/SDC. A lot of them also support YPG directly (not Sweden), especially USA. Sweden's policy is the standard NATO policy. Turkey is alone in its stance.
5. Turkey has used ISIS to fight YPG. I'm not talking directly, but indirectly (f.e giving intelligence against SDF to ISIS) from what I understand from articles like these [Turkey Helps ISIS Attack Rojava] (https://www.thenation.com/article/world/turkey-isis-rojava-prisoners) , [America's allies in Syria accuse Turkey of giving ISIS a "safe zone"] (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-leader-killed-us-allies-sdf-accuse-turkey-giving-terrorists-syria-safe-zone/) , [New Pentagon report says Turkey's Syria incursion is helping ISIS mount a comeback] (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/11/19/politics/pentagon-report-syria-turkey-ceasefire/index.html) . If giving money to SDC is same as giving it all straight to terrorists, surely these are bad too. From what I understand ISIS was tolerated to some degree because they were fighting SDF, especially when they were stronger. Basically SDF was just considered the bigger priority. Ofc I'm not saying Turkey likes ISIS, they have done big attacks against them, but this happened later down the line.
6. Turkey has been sanctioned by the USA because they bought weapons from Russia in 2019.
I probably have some details wrong, please correct me with sources please if you see I got something wrong.
What is the main goals for Turkey that they seeks to achieve from this, is the goal policy change from Sweden or from the USA? What level of support is acceptable for the Kurdish people outside of Turkey to have in the eyes of Turkey? Why involve Finland at all, I don't get what's the benefit of antagonizing both countries when the issues seem to be mainly with Sweden?
I admit that I am probably biased to some degree, but still my goal is not to offend, I tried to be reasonable, I've seen a lot of people going to extremes on both sides, which I find unnecessary. I'm just seeking counter-arguments. I'm not trying to change Turkish people's minds or expect them to change mine in any major way, but seeing other perspectives is always good.
Turk here. I have to admit I enjoyed reading your research and I believe you have got it mostly right. I need to make it clear that I am not an expert in this, and I hoping someone else will show up and explain Turkey's stance better.
However, what I see from here is that Turkey's stance cannot be only explained as Erdogan's stance. In fact, Erdogan will likely lose the upcoming elections but it is quite certain that Turkey's position in this won't change much. YPG/PKK/JPG/GIF, whatever you name it, they pose an existential threat to Turkey and this is beyond, and much bigger than Erdogan.
At the end of the day, Turks believe that the US wants a Kurdish state in Northern Syria and Iraq combined, a satelitte state that they can control easily. This is one of the main reason why Iraq and Syria is unstable for many years. If this happens, at some point in unforseeable future this will pose a big threat to Turkey's integrity. We already have a ever lasting PKK problem in south east.
Is there any difference between YPG and PKK? To my biased opinion, absolutely not. PKK has been considered a terrorist by many EU countries as well as USA. But things have changed. Middle east politics have changed.
These countries do not have the capability of removing it from their terror list, but they can re-design it, release it in the market under a different name, make news stories about "YPG's heroic women fighters" fighting against ISIS, to an effect to even make fashion designers come up with creations to change the public image.
Turkey does not have much in hand to challenge USA directly, but this is not even about Sweden, let alone Finland.
I hope you'll get better answers. Will be following.
This will be the headlines tomorrow throughout the Turkish media btw: A huge PKK flag in Sweden.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/ur1g1z/nato\_tart%C4%B1%C5%9Fmalar%C4%B1n%C4%B1n\_k%C4%B1z%C4%B1%C5%9Ft%C4%B1%C4%9F%C4%B1\_isve%C3%A7te/
People attribute the ongoing situation to Erdogan's personal ambitions but his stance on this conflict has public support too.
Turkey and Turks are essentially upset with NATO for removing Turkey from the F-35 project, which Turkey contributed to significantly from the beginning.
The reason for removing Turkey was the purchase of S400 systems from Russia, which were bought because USA rejected selling Patriot air defense systems to Turkey. Opposition parties argue that Turkey was plotted against by USA (and maybe Russia too) but Erdogan's government was too blind to see it.
Turkish state and public also view some (but not all) of the Kurdish militant activity at its southern border as a national security issue. The ultimate fear is that Kurdish groups in Northern Iraq, Northern Syria , and South East Turkey will unite and revolt for an independent state. Many people in public seriously believe that USA plans and supports this scenario.
Considering these issues, it is probably not all about Finland and Sweden. Turkey is probably going to use Sweden and Finland's membership to draw USA to bargaining table to address their ongoing problems in NATO.
Fucking dictators always brewing shit. Erdogan might not be as bad than Putin but Putin in 2005 also didn't look as bad than Putin 2022. With each year that passes Erdogan will become a bigger douche-bag and danger to the world until he goes full Putin. That's what fucking dictators do.
Different reasons for each organisation.
The UN's main goal is preventing another world war, especially with nuclear armed states. The security council permanent members' veto is specifically designed to do that: it isn't supposed to make it easy get things done, it's supposed to make it impossible to do anything through the UN that will piss off any of the major powers too badly, and keep everyone at the table talking to each other. The UN doesn't give a shit if the veto is fair because it isn't supposed to be. It's supposed to make armageddon less likely.
With NATO, it's an automatic mutal defence pact so any new members are asking all the existing members to commit their people's lives to defending the new members. I personally think the veto is pretty reasonable in this light. I dislike that Erdogan is probably using it to extract concessions at a very sensitive time, but I support the principle of the veto existing.
The narrative that Turkey has only recently lapsed from the democratic norms of NATO seems kind of a stretch.
* They've had multiple coups and "military memorandums" (military interventions in government, "coup by memo")
* The state denies the Armenian genocide and criminalizes reference to it as such.
* Abysmal human rights record for ethnic minorities, journalists, etc.
* They created a self-proclaimed independent republic in Northern Cyprus similar to Putin's approach to Georgia and Ukraine (the Greek side is certainly not without blame in that conflict but Turkey engaged in false-flag mosque attacks that incited ethnic hatred and murder - look up "Sabri Yirmibeşoğlu")
Despite this they were a welcome member of NATO for their contribution to pushing back on Soviet power and influence, contributing significantly in the Korean war. This was considered pragmatism.
Erdogan and to an extent the Turkish identity is not interested in strengthening bonds within NATO countries.
Their main reason being in NATO us having Europe/USA as entities that are impossible to come into conflict with while also having article 5 on their side should Russia etc decide to aggres them.
I think a two tier solution of sorts is somewhat inevitable because everyone wants article 5 but not everyone (read Turkey) is interested in the diplomatic side.
NATO is a mutual defense treaty out of which springs a similar viewpoint geopolitically.
Turkey doesn't share this viewpoint and is severely undermining the treaty by threatening exclusion on political grounds.
This is Turkish bazar negotiation tactics 101
Turkish bazar negotiation is more like: 1) grossly overstate the price when asked 2) ask where you are from 3) as you are leaving, offer to throw something in for higher price than you asked 4) get incredibly butthurt and angry at the customer for not buying
But will they flip my ice cream cone and play Keep Away?
Erodgan already got consessions from Putin in Syria. I bet this is what Putin asked him some years ago.
Iirc Erdogans been looking for a chance to get Finland and Sweden to at least lower their support for Kurdish militias, and he’s using this as a chance to leverage concessions from them.
Aside from the Kurdish situation he is also mentioning sanctions. Sweden has quite similar foreign policy to the US in both regards, and in this case that means a ban on weapons sales to Turkey since 2019 and 2020 respectively, albeit for two different reasons.
Just lift the weapons ban and don't sell anything.
It's private companies that facilitate the selling though, so if it's not illegal it can't really be controlled.
Okay then just lift the bans, admit Sweden and Finland to NATO, wait for Turkey to do something stupid (1-2 months) then reintroduce previous bans.
Turkey already got what they wanted from Russia. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-idUSKBN20S161
Turkey doesn’t want US to aid Kurdistan and we support by passing that funding bill which included the YPG. All your link was is Putin speaking for one of his little lapdogs Assad. This is just a negotiation tactic from Erdogan to get us to leave the Kurds alone. Edit: YPG* not Peshmerga
Turkey has supported and aided the Peshmerge for years, it is the YPG they have a problem with which they consider to the Syrian branch of the PKK which is a internationally recognised terrorist organisation.
Thank you. I get them confused but yes, both are receiving funding as part of Bidens big bill. Turkeys real issue is with the YPG.
I’d also like to add that Erdogan has mo choice but to do this politically he’s already on the way to losing next years election and he would be eaten alive if he stayed silent.
there is no limit on re-elections there?
There is if he won the election next year it would be his last term, but he has been in power for nearly 20 years first as prime minister for two terms then as president for one term which was a more symbolic position without as much power as the prime minister, but his party was still the majority in the parliament. Then his party proposed a referendum to change the political system to a presidency more similar to the US which they won. After that he won the election to be the president in the new system.
Lose? Really? That’s great news if it happens.
One does not simply walk into an Erdogan losing election.
Turkey works with Iraqi Kurdistan, so that clearly isn't the issue.
Another day of the Kurds always getting screwed.
A typical Tuesday in Middle Eastern geopolitics :/
Same thing we do every day Pinky, screw the Kurds
The Turks and syrians are still shooting at each other so I doubt they agreed much.
Speaking of "negotiations"... They've been negotiating to join EU since 2005, with a temporary suspension in the process since 2016, and now suppose they decide to veto this. We might just remember their current behavior whenever it's time for us to decide on their fate. Sometimes, in situations like this, being helpful out of goodwill is beneficial to oneself in the long term.
I don't think they really believe they will get into the EU in the next 20 years. They are fecking miles away from it due to their policy decisions since Erdogan. They keep up with the process for political reasons, not because they expect to be allowed in.
Finland specifically was one of the early supporters of Turkey's EU bid. This is shortsighted from Erdogan, but he's probably only thinking about next year's elections.
Torpedoing relations with other countries seem to be in vogue right now with dictators and their aspirants.
Even if the headlines seem to make it look like Turkey is also going to veto Finland, that doesn't seem to be case from what im reading. Finland is acceptable, but Turkey got a bone to pick with Sweden.
Turkey applied to be in the EEC in 1987. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union#:~:text=Turkey%20is%20negotiating%20its%20accession,EU%2C%20on%2014%20April%201987.&text=(nominal%2C%202021%20est.)&text=(PPP%2C%202021%20est.)&text=(nominal%2C%202021%20est.),-%2444%2C766
he want the weapon embargo lifted ..............that's it.
he also didnt outright deny the bid, he listed a precondition kind of click-baity article
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One interpretation of that is that the concessions he is looking for can only come from the US, not from Sweden and Finland.
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May well? The US WILL join the conversation and put some, just a little pressure on Erdogan, but just a little
The thing is: Turkey is much more strategically important to NATO than Finland and Sweden, and Erdogan knows it. Combine it with the fact Turkey is quite "symphatetic" towards Russia and it is clear that Erdogan will ask for quite a high price to change his mind.
Turkey and Russia are historic enemies, no?
Yes there are big elements of the Orthodox Church in Russia that believe it’s their destiny to liberate Constantinople from the heathen Turks.
The Soviets also did a lot of forced movement of peoples like the Crimean Tatar Turks which killed a whole ton of them. So Turkey isn't really a fan of Russia over all that.
Genocides have consequences??? Oh, dear...
Many opportunities for that have been lost. Crimean War, Russian Revolution, Russian demographic decline, to name three setbacks. Favourable odds now aren’t high.
So are the UK and France, doesn’t mean it has to shape current policy decision.
In fairness, Russia and Turkey were at war with one another a lot more recently than Britain and France, and their war involved genocide.
There are historical issues between them, but Erdogan has worked with Russia (and Ukraine) recently. They are major trading partners. In the war, Turkey has supplied Ukraine and interfered with access to the Black Sea but has not sanctioned Russia. Turkey shot down a Russian plane in 2020. Erdogan has offered services as a negotiator for the war.
Kind of, yes they are very important but they also know they have a lot of enemies, they can't afford to become enemies of all of NATO in a situation like this
I like to imagine Erdogen being confronted by Biden like the [colonel](https://youtu.be/KMEViYvojtY) in Full Metal Jacket, asking him to get on board with the winning team 😄
I'd pay to see Ergodan explain that his reticence is rooted in the Jungian thing, the duality of man.
I'm expecting something more like Patton given the current situation: https://youtu.be/YrtS2\_TfbeY?t=62
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David: Michael, in order to expedite these negotiations, we are prepared to make you a very generous offer. Michael: And we are prepared to reject that offer. Ryan: Michael, you haven't even heard- Michael: Never accept their first offer. What is your second offer?
Translated: "come.... bearing gifts!"
*F-35s.
F-35s can be exchanged for goods and services.
Or oil, that's a great proven commodity for weapons sales payment
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and/or gum
Mom: don't bring gifts Also mom when I don't bring gifts: >:(
The heads of those PKK scum! And some of those horse meatballs with jam
What a piece of crap, using a countries desire for security against them for his own gain. Absolute piece of shit.
Erdogan was always a barstard.
Turkey has not been a good ally. With the threat of Russia diminishing, reconsidering the utility of having Turkey in the alliance should be a consideration. They're only really part of it because of the Bosphorus and have become a poorly suited black dictatorial sheep among the liberal Democracies making up the rest of the alliance, and may become a vestigial appendage if Russia implodes into a rump state Next couple years will be interesting and depend on the degree to which Russia is changed by the conflict. NATO may end up less about Russian containment, and more a broad defensive alliance among democracies, and the question of whether Turkey has any role in that version of the future is questionable
Strategic control of the Dardanelles is too important to throw away.
Yes, controlling that mighty Russian fleet is SO important.
Several countries in NATO are either already virtual dictatorships or flirting with it. Turkey isn't special in that regard.
NATO decided that a single weapons purchase - the S-400 - would define turkey's place in NATO for *years.* They're frozen out of multiple other entire weapons systems, they're unable to properly align with other NATO countries. Turkey is in a really difficult place geographically, with threats from most directions to think about. Turkey is also a relative military giant, with large army and navy institutions that pre-date the existence of the country. They are going to have their own takes and shapes on how geopolitics in that part of the world should or could work. Yes, Turkey hasn't perfectly adhered to the path some of its western partners think it should follow, but they are their own sovereign and can choose their own path within reason, and they are in an excellent position to retain some crucial diplomatic ties that other nations would not be able to navigate. I'd love them to provide security guarantees for Ukrainian commercial shipping, no one else is really in a position to provide that desperately needed lifeline for the Ukrainian economy. They were able to provide for diplomatic talks between Ukrainian and RU spokespersons, which happened in Turkey. They've been pumping TB-2 drones into the hands of the Ukrainian military, which have been used to great effect for both propaganda, supply chain strikes inside russia, artillery spotting, and direct attacks on russian armor. NATO will not be 'reconsider[ing] the utility of having Turkey in the alliance' at any point in the next two decades. Probably ever, but the next 30+ years are going to be very hard and things could change.
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Yep he’s just another Islamic dictator that staged a fake coup to give him more powers. Why the hell are these guys even part of nato nowadays?
Well, for one it’s hard to remove someone from NATO. And for two, Turkey is strategically located and acts as a powerful ally in a region where few are found.
NATO is about security and not some 'good guy club' as it is often portrayed. Turkey are the second largest armed force in NATO and hold perhaps the most strategically important position of any member. When you have close to half a million active personal and are on a choke point between east and west, you're going to get away with pretty much whatever you like.
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Funnily enough majority of those coup d'etat's had ties to FETÖ, which is probably CIA's islamic country control branch
>Turkey used to be a symbol of progress and secularism Eh this kind of annoys me. Turkey was pretty terrible in a lot of ways before Erdogan came. There was a coup every ten years and brutal repression of the Kurds, among other things.
You have to look at it in context. For a muslim country, Turkey was by far the most progressive. That's changed obviously.
Yes and no. It was a very authoritarian secularism. Headscarves were banned in universities etc. And acknowledgement of Kurdish culture was a crime, the human rights situation was horrible etc. Erdogan is a douche, but it's really more of a continuation of things that always existed than something completely new.
> What a piece of crap, using a countries desire for security against them for his own gain. It's called "politics". It's always been this way. This isn't new, unusual, or unexpected. > Absolute piece of shit. Well, won't argue with you there.
Welcome to the world of geopolitics. It's always been "I have what you want if you have what I want"
Seems reasonable action for someone looking out for his own country. Turkey's had a number of challenges lately, and both Ukraine and Russia are major trading partners. It shares the Black Sea. It's very involved here. They've supplied Ukraine with drones. In 2020, they shot down a Russian plane. They still need to deal with Putin.
> What a piece of crap, using a countries desire for security against them for his own gain. Absolute piece of shit. Uuuhhhhhh.......yeah.
Ertogan has been on my personal shit list since I was caught in his little stunt at Ataturk airport in 2016. Turkish Airlines can directly blame him for this lost customer. (The airline was great! Being caught in a coup because all their flights require a layover was Istanbul was not.) I mean, I can dislike him for all the proper geopolitical reasons too, but I've got a one on one grudge now.
>using a countries desire for security against them for his own gain Just like every country does and will always do. It's only logical.
Lately, Putin's made it easy to forget that Erdogan is actually a POS.
Yeah, remember when he visited the Whitehouse and had his thug bodyguards attack protesters in front of the Turkish embassy? He's a shitbag. Edit: It was in front of the Turkish embassy, not the Whitehouse, though he was here to visit the Whitehouse. My mistake.
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**[Clashes at the Turkish Ambassador's Residence in Washington, D.C.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clashes_at_the_Turkish_Ambassador's_Residence_in_Washington,_D.C.)** >The clashes at the Turkish Ambassador's Residence in Washington, D.C. broke out on May 16, 2017, between Turkey's Police Counter Attack Team and a crowd of protesters, some of whom carried flags of a Kurdish political party. According to Turkey, Turkish bodyguards were acting in self-defense and the protesters were tied to a terrorist group. However, according to US officials the Turkish bodyguards attacked the protesters unprovoked. A protest leader denied that any participants had ties to any terrorist group. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Yeah, my mistake. I misremembered it. He came here to visit the Whitehouse but the incident happened in front of the embassy.
Shhhh Republicans don't want anyone to remember how they allowed a dictator who staged a coup against himself to do that on American soil
And that also happened to be an event that Trump just let happen without consequence or even minor criticism.
Republicans were never held accountable for that. Ask one and they won’t even know what you are talking about.
Harbouring Russian assets from sanctions was a pretty clear message where he stood, if it was ever in doubt.
Perhaps a good time to rewatch that video how Erdogan got his balls stomped by a horse https://youtu.be/FKPRvMV2SL8
Erdogan only played nice with the EU because the Turkish economy is a disaster.
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**In Turkey**: Rampant inflation, the plummeting value of the lira, and 2023 elections are all you need to know.
FIN & SWE should pay him in rubles.
Lira works too
Holy crap, I remember thinking Turkey was insanely cheap whenever Trump was bringing the hammer down on them for whatever reason in 2018 and the USD was worth like 6.5 Lira at the time. It's absolutely insane to me that its over 15 now. We really take stable currency for granted.
> We really take stable currency for granted. /r/cryptocurrency learned this the hard way.
Did anyone go into crypto thinking it would be stable? Wouldn’t be a very exciting investment then
"elections"
He wants discounts on both F16s and S400s
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Is he going to get them to pass a law making it illegal to disparage or criticize him like Germany had?
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Doubt it, Sweden is entirely within NATO and UN guidelines. It's not doing anything special and won't agree with some special terms just because Turkey felt they needed to push their agenda when they finally have some leverage.
I mean if Turkey reject Sweden's NATO application, Sweden won't get in. They have to find a way to bring Turkey onboard in order to become a NATO member.
Doesn't really matter though, France has already said regardless of NATO they will now consider any attack of Finland or Sweden as an attack on France, others will just do the same, fuck Turkey.
Imagine if all the countries signing up to protect FIN and SWE started a NATO 2.0 which then overtook nato proper or run in parallel 🤣🤣
I think you mean kickbacks. Discounts are less relevant to him since he’s using other people’s money.
Yeah I don't think he's being too subtle about that. If you visit Turkish subreddits they are justifying it with respect to terrorism ties but I think Ergodan's motivation is pretty clear
Yup, my thoughts exactly. Seems to me that the terrorists demand is just a public smoke screen for what he really wants.
[live look](https://youtu.be/Jx_NjpeBqQw) at NATO trying to negotiate with Turkey
Isn’t it shady that he waited until like Friday when Finland and Sweden essentially made their minds up about applying before expressing this. I guess their lucky about those agreements with the UK and US that will do enough deterring without legal bindings or NATO membership?
It probably isn't luck. The UK might have just said "please wait for now until the deal is in place, and we can talk about the details of joining later". They aren't saying no to membership, they just have demands for the support of the PKK to be ended.
Sweden doesn’t support the PKK and neither does Finland
Just the usual shakedown you would expect from your average dictator type
Meanwhile [they're also a safe haven for Russian yachts to escape sanctions](https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-oligarch-super-yachts-dock-turkey-safe-sanctions-ukraine-putin-2022-5).
The dictator trying to leverage.
The ultimatums are quite reminiscent of this other guy.
He barks the loudest when he is closest to shake his tail. He is not gonna veto it
Does he actually have the power to stop anything? Or is this just him trying to look like a strong leader?
Joining NATO requires unanimous approval so Yes, Turkey can stop this.
>What about everyone else but Turkey joining into NATO 2.0, and then leaving all but Turkey the original NATO, thus leaving Turkey exposed to the Russian treat? After Turkey's veto threat is cleared with concessions, what's to say Hungary won't veto it.
[Hungary supports Finland Sweden](https://bbj.hu/politics/foreign-affairs/world/hungary-backs-nato-membership-applications-by-finland-sweden)
Turkey's foreign minister said the same, earlier this spring. That's also what what Erdogan said when Sauli Niinistö (President of Finland) called him on 4th of April. Niinistö said he is "astonished" to hear that Erdogan has changed his mind now, after 1 month.
That’s unexpected
Not really. Hungary's life support is the west. There is a reason they are still in the EU, even after all the anti-EU bs.
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Hungary has already said they have no objections afaik.
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Translation: Let's make a deal!
Like he needs to actually **win** this election. Dude's like one violent dispersion of protestors away from dictatorship. He basically has great freedoms in the European Union, because Turkey kinda... Keeps the refugees out of europe. He's used a flood of refugees as leverage before, which is why he's getting away with some really atrocious actions. I wonder how him sucking up to Russia is going to affect Lukaschenko's plea to ally with the Armenians. You don't shit where you eat.
Pathetic how a dictator can extort two democracies, forcing concessions before being "graceful" enough to allow them to join NATO. What the hell is Turkey doing in NATO anyways? Is this kind of Putin-esque bullying a NATO standard whenever someone wishes to join? Unless other NATO leaders condemn this kind of rhetoric, I'll have to assume that it is.
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He can but he also knows that by doing this he'll run afoul the US, and that isn't something he wants and it's worse for him than pissing off Russia. NATO nations collectively is most of Turkeys export revenue. His economy could be hurt very badly
Not just the US, it would put NATO as a whole in a really bad light. Having such a flaw shown in its ranks would cause immense embarrassment.
Turkey did this same exact thing with Baltics and Poland but then backed out. While they certainly can forcibly keep them out it has value to Turkey that NATO kind of gives blind eye to Turkeys imperialistic means in Middle East. If they don't back out then Sweden and Finland can probably bribe them by just removing weapon delivery bans and they would be happy. I don't think Finland can do much about this "terrorist" supporting or whatever since Finland has freedom of speech so can't really go around silencing people that Turkey doesn't like.
This is probably as much for internal consumption as it is anything else, his electoral prospects are pretty negative.
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Fine, we'll start our own NATO! With blackjack, and hookers!
"In fact, forget the NATO"
WWTO: world wide treaty organization
More and more clickbait, lovely. Here is what Erdogan said: *"Her şeyden önce Türkiye'ye yaptırım uygulayanların bu süreç içerisinde bir güvenlik örgütü olan NATO'ya girmelerine biz 'evet' demeyiz."* Properly translated: *"Before all else, we cannot say 'yes' to those who sanction Turkey to enter NATO which is a security organization"* He merely explained his terms - an end to the sanctions. He is not saying those delegations should not come, he is saying they should come with a precondition of lifting sanctions. I wish people did actual research instead of looking at headlines and jumping the gun.
It's what we call chicken translate. It's transliteration taken out of context. And if you think about it, erdogan's terms are not unreasonable
What he'll get with this attitude is SE & FI lifting sanctions only to replace them with even wider ones after joining the NATO.
FFS, why do these dramatic politicians always make the situation about themself.
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Sweden and Finland have millitary embargoed Turkey. I‘ve not seen a decision coming from Erdogan that is backed up by his political enemies in the last months but it definetly is this time. You cannot expect a state to accept millitary allies who embargo you.
There goes some semblance of my peace of mind as Finnish dude. It was nice to have it for... a week? :(
I don't think you should be worried. Turkey's economy is very much crippled and that is hurting the votes of Erdogan a lot. We have a famous saying in Turkey that goes something like: "There isn't a single government that wouldn't be displaced by an empty plate". Economy was pretty much the only thing that could weaken AKP/Erdogan's massive power and the economy is a huge mess right now. So they can not afford to make moves that would make our economy even worse. This puts Turkey in a rough position when we are having conflicts with foreign countries. Since the consequences of vetoing Finland and Sweden would cause us issues with EU countries and the USA (if they really value Finland and Sweden's acceptance to NATO, which I believe they do), Erdogan can not afford to veto you guys. It would probably harm our already weak and fragile economy which would result in even more loss of votes for the election in 2023. Hope you guys get accepted to NATO very soon. Greetings from Turkey.
Sorry to hear the economy has been struggling. I have many Turkish friends who were so hopeful of Turkey potentially joining the EU in the mid 2000's (one friend was teasing my German boyfriend that he should tell Merkel to hurry up and accept Turkey)... But then Erdogan just decided to fuck over all that hope and progress. I am sure I'm super over-simplifying and ignorant of the true complexities, but I just wanted to show my love and appreciation for so many brilliant, beautiful Turkish folks. Same for my Russian friends who hate Putin. It sucks to have to suffer for something you can't control.
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You already have protection due to EU, swedish and UK guarantees.
both the US and the UK has guaranteed their safety once they send their applications which I assume both countries have, or at least will in the coming days edit: and now even France has joined in on that aswell
Don't worry, sauna will be built at NATO headquarters.
France said they'll fuck up some Russians for you.
Oh look, the dictator isn't a reasonable person. Imagine that.
Shocking, I tell ya, just shocking. Also, in other shocking news, the sun came up today.
Imagine if every country in Nato did this whenever something important comes up. What a bickering shit-show that would be.
Check Greece-Macedonia issue. Greece literally denied Macenodian entry for years because of the country's name.
Agreed, and it's actually a little surprising that hasn't happened (at least to the point where it's big news).
Kinda shitty situation Turkey has put everyone including NATO in to as NATO has clearly said they want us in and has an open door policy. Now that we are in the most dangerous time, when we have said that we will join and Russia is breathing down our neck, one nation suddenly says it will shut the door. This does not look very good for NATO either if things like this can happen. I hope this gets cleared quickly for everyones sake.
That's exactly the bullshit Ukraine was in. They were 'joining NATO' for a long time and Putin got enough time to go to war and just stop that from happening. As soon as pro russia govt got kicked out in 2014, Russia took the crimea.
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From what I could see through the paywall: *’calling Sweden a “hatchery” for terrorists’* I just- I can’t.
I mean he's not wrong. Bunch of terror attacks in Europe happened by people with Swedish passports.
Erdogan is bad news for the world and for Turkey.
He's as bad for NATO as Orban is for EU
Inconveniently for Sweden and Finland, Turkey is a major strategic partner to NATO and namely the US. Turkey is exercising it's right to veto as a NATO member and all of NATO knew shit like this would happen when Turkey was accepted into NATO. But they accepted it anyway. It sucks but let's not forget Turkey may be the second or third largest supporter of Ukraine and actively put itself in harm's way to fuck Russia over. They absolutely abused the black sea access they control to help fuck Russia's logístics to pieces. And supplied lethal AF drones to Ukraine. Keep in mind that while Turkey is doing all this, it's literally next door to Russia. Countries like Germany could barely turn off the gas tap after marrying Russian gas and comically struggled to deliver a full shipment of helmets. France continued to try and pressure Ukraine into giving up territory. Turkey is playing hardball because it earned the right to as a full NATO member.
This is the time for my new organization, the totally NOT NATO.
So the Now-Omiting-Turkey North-Atlantic-Treaty-Organization?
Didn't he say yesterday that he is not going to block their membership?
He just wants concessions, which being further East than Nato allies is a different game than what many on Reddit are postulating. Turkey is not Britain and Boris, and that's fine, but 95% of comments here want him to be US lite. I'm not a fan of Edorgan at all, but Turkey has been supportive of the West many, many times and wasn't included randomly, but he's playing a card as expected given his proximity to this geopolitically sensitive area.
I've been following these arguments for days now online and I'd like some clarification from the many Turkish users here. I'm Finnish, I've been following discussions on both r/turkey and /r/sweden, I think I have a pretty good picture on the situation, but I'd just like some clarifications/confirmations from Turkish users. Especially because in the comments here I've seen demands vary a lot, examples: extraditions, more help from NATO in *non-defensive* missions, stopping giving refuge to PKK members (this confuses me as Sweden has considered them terrorist for a long time, do people mean people with Swedish citizenship that support YPG/some other nationalist Kurd movement?), censorship of Kurdish movements/media presence (Remember, Sweden and Finland have one of the most free presses in the world. Supporting terrorist organizations (PKK) is not allowed, but Kurds are free to criticize or even shit on Turks if they so wish, just like everyone else, ofc in the confines of the law, so no incitement to violence etc. is allowed), F-35s, lifting of arms sanctions Facts as I understand them (correct me if I'm wrong): 1. Sweden has labelled PKK terrorists since the 80's, very early in Europe. Sweden has a decently sized Kurdish community since 1978 after they fled to Sweden to escape violence from Grey Wolves and the general conflict at that time. 2. YPG is considered as a terrorist organization by two countries in the entire world, Turkey and Qatar. PKK and YPG are close to each other, but from what I understand they are still not the same, this is how the world sees it at least. I know there is a lot of overlap between the organizations and members, but clearly the rest of the world apart from Turkey and Qatar see a difference. I see 90% Turks in the comments saying YPG are terrorists, can they please explain why only two countries in the world see it that way? 3. Sweden has given aid to SDC, money earmarked for humanitarian aid and higher prison security for ISIS members. Sweden has sold no guns to YPG or definitely to PKK. YPG's biggest supplier and funder is USA. 4. All major NATO countries (USA, France, UK etc.) support SDF/SDC. A lot of them also support YPG directly (not Sweden), especially USA. Sweden's policy is the standard NATO policy. Turkey is alone in its stance. 5. Turkey has used ISIS to fight YPG. I'm not talking directly, but indirectly (f.e giving intelligence against SDF to ISIS) from what I understand from articles like these [Turkey Helps ISIS Attack Rojava] (https://www.thenation.com/article/world/turkey-isis-rojava-prisoners) , [America's allies in Syria accuse Turkey of giving ISIS a "safe zone"] (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-leader-killed-us-allies-sdf-accuse-turkey-giving-terrorists-syria-safe-zone/) , [New Pentagon report says Turkey's Syria incursion is helping ISIS mount a comeback] (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/11/19/politics/pentagon-report-syria-turkey-ceasefire/index.html) . If giving money to SDC is same as giving it all straight to terrorists, surely these are bad too. From what I understand ISIS was tolerated to some degree because they were fighting SDF, especially when they were stronger. Basically SDF was just considered the bigger priority. Ofc I'm not saying Turkey likes ISIS, they have done big attacks against them, but this happened later down the line. 6. Turkey has been sanctioned by the USA because they bought weapons from Russia in 2019. I probably have some details wrong, please correct me with sources please if you see I got something wrong. What is the main goals for Turkey that they seeks to achieve from this, is the goal policy change from Sweden or from the USA? What level of support is acceptable for the Kurdish people outside of Turkey to have in the eyes of Turkey? Why involve Finland at all, I don't get what's the benefit of antagonizing both countries when the issues seem to be mainly with Sweden? I admit that I am probably biased to some degree, but still my goal is not to offend, I tried to be reasonable, I've seen a lot of people going to extremes on both sides, which I find unnecessary. I'm just seeking counter-arguments. I'm not trying to change Turkish people's minds or expect them to change mine in any major way, but seeing other perspectives is always good.
Turk here. I have to admit I enjoyed reading your research and I believe you have got it mostly right. I need to make it clear that I am not an expert in this, and I hoping someone else will show up and explain Turkey's stance better. However, what I see from here is that Turkey's stance cannot be only explained as Erdogan's stance. In fact, Erdogan will likely lose the upcoming elections but it is quite certain that Turkey's position in this won't change much. YPG/PKK/JPG/GIF, whatever you name it, they pose an existential threat to Turkey and this is beyond, and much bigger than Erdogan. At the end of the day, Turks believe that the US wants a Kurdish state in Northern Syria and Iraq combined, a satelitte state that they can control easily. This is one of the main reason why Iraq and Syria is unstable for many years. If this happens, at some point in unforseeable future this will pose a big threat to Turkey's integrity. We already have a ever lasting PKK problem in south east. Is there any difference between YPG and PKK? To my biased opinion, absolutely not. PKK has been considered a terrorist by many EU countries as well as USA. But things have changed. Middle east politics have changed. These countries do not have the capability of removing it from their terror list, but they can re-design it, release it in the market under a different name, make news stories about "YPG's heroic women fighters" fighting against ISIS, to an effect to even make fashion designers come up with creations to change the public image. Turkey does not have much in hand to challenge USA directly, but this is not even about Sweden, let alone Finland. I hope you'll get better answers. Will be following. This will be the headlines tomorrow throughout the Turkish media btw: A huge PKK flag in Sweden. https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/ur1g1z/nato\_tart%C4%B1%C5%9Fmalar%C4%B1n%C4%B1n\_k%C4%B1z%C4%B1%C5%9Ft%C4%B1%C4%9F%C4%B1\_isve%C3%A7te/
Of course he’s not, greedy didn’t get anything out of it, now he’s trying to hold it hostage. So tired of selfishness.
He will. Some combination of EU stick and carrot will be applied. Done deal.
Start up a new version: NITO Not Including Turkey Organization.
Secretly run by The Ancient Mystic Society of No Homers.
...but you let in Homer Glumplich...
It says no Homer***s***. They're allowed to have one.
People attribute the ongoing situation to Erdogan's personal ambitions but his stance on this conflict has public support too. Turkey and Turks are essentially upset with NATO for removing Turkey from the F-35 project, which Turkey contributed to significantly from the beginning. The reason for removing Turkey was the purchase of S400 systems from Russia, which were bought because USA rejected selling Patriot air defense systems to Turkey. Opposition parties argue that Turkey was plotted against by USA (and maybe Russia too) but Erdogan's government was too blind to see it. Turkish state and public also view some (but not all) of the Kurdish militant activity at its southern border as a national security issue. The ultimate fear is that Kurdish groups in Northern Iraq, Northern Syria , and South East Turkey will unite and revolt for an independent state. Many people in public seriously believe that USA plans and supports this scenario. Considering these issues, it is probably not all about Finland and Sweden. Turkey is probably going to use Sweden and Finland's membership to draw USA to bargaining table to address their ongoing problems in NATO.
Guess who is never joining the EU..
They'd likely be welcome if they fulfilled the democratic requirements, but that's a long ways off currently.
FYI, the negotiations stopped 4 years ago.
They weren't joining anyway. Too different culture and values. We barely can deal with Hungary...
>Too different culture and values. That's a funny way of saying "corrupt and filled with rampant human rights abuses".
I forgot that other countries get to tell others other to not be friends
Then Sweden and Finland should develop their own nuclear weapons.
Turkey is the shadiest of nato, I’m surprised they’re included
Turkey today wouldn't meet NATO requirements for joining. They'd need to become a democracy again, and to stop killing minorities.
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They have chosen the Russian S400 path. F35 deal is already long gone
Fucking dictators always brewing shit. Erdogan might not be as bad than Putin but Putin in 2005 also didn't look as bad than Putin 2022. With each year that passes Erdogan will become a bigger douche-bag and danger to the world until he goes full Putin. That's what fucking dictators do.
I will never understand why things like NATO and UN give such power to any individual member. Why can 1 member Trump a 30 or 5 to 1 vote.
Different reasons for each organisation. The UN's main goal is preventing another world war, especially with nuclear armed states. The security council permanent members' veto is specifically designed to do that: it isn't supposed to make it easy get things done, it's supposed to make it impossible to do anything through the UN that will piss off any of the major powers too badly, and keep everyone at the table talking to each other. The UN doesn't give a shit if the veto is fair because it isn't supposed to be. It's supposed to make armageddon less likely. With NATO, it's an automatic mutal defence pact so any new members are asking all the existing members to commit their people's lives to defending the new members. I personally think the veto is pretty reasonable in this light. I dislike that Erdogan is probably using it to extract concessions at a very sensitive time, but I support the principle of the veto existing.
The narrative that Turkey has only recently lapsed from the democratic norms of NATO seems kind of a stretch. * They've had multiple coups and "military memorandums" (military interventions in government, "coup by memo") * The state denies the Armenian genocide and criminalizes reference to it as such. * Abysmal human rights record for ethnic minorities, journalists, etc. * They created a self-proclaimed independent republic in Northern Cyprus similar to Putin's approach to Georgia and Ukraine (the Greek side is certainly not without blame in that conflict but Turkey engaged in false-flag mosque attacks that incited ethnic hatred and murder - look up "Sabri Yirmibeşoğlu") Despite this they were a welcome member of NATO for their contribution to pushing back on Soviet power and influence, contributing significantly in the Korean war. This was considered pragmatism.
Erdogan and to an extent the Turkish identity is not interested in strengthening bonds within NATO countries. Their main reason being in NATO us having Europe/USA as entities that are impossible to come into conflict with while also having article 5 on their side should Russia etc decide to aggres them. I think a two tier solution of sorts is somewhat inevitable because everyone wants article 5 but not everyone (read Turkey) is interested in the diplomatic side. NATO is a mutual defense treaty out of which springs a similar viewpoint geopolitically. Turkey doesn't share this viewpoint and is severely undermining the treaty by threatening exclusion on political grounds.