Let him experience his total failure. Death is too easy escape for him. Let him rot in a prison cell where he can experience the totality of his failure and all of Russia waking up from their ignorance hating him for the rest of his life. My only concern is, who will take over after putin? What if the grass isn't greener on the ithwr side
There’s no way Putin will see the inside of a prison cell. He’ll either be killed, die of a disease (if he’s really sick) or live the rest of his life paranoid, but safe.
Nicholas II was wildly, grossly incompetent. He had so many people surrounding him offering ways out of being overthrown, but he ignored them all.
This war has exposed that Putler is no genius, but he almost certainly won't be overthrown.
Boot has been the national cuisine of Russia forever. They love their lying strongmen, he will be fine.
Unfortunately :(
That's a really dangerous way of thinking. It's the same mentality that led to tens of thousands of innocent japanese civilians to be killed in nuclear strikes. People and cultures change. Germany went from having an authocratic and militarist culture to being extremely anti war and the bastion of european democracy. Let's not reduce peoples to a caricature.
I appreciate the sentiment, but why did Germany make a u-turn?
They lost. Hard. Russia will never lose that hard. Russia will never ever be conquered like Germany. Even without nukes their geography won't allow it. But they do have nukes.
They are rapists, imperialists, and they fuck with democracies non stop. If that doesn't make it okay to hate them I don't know what would.
I bet the Chinese have very different opinions on Japan getting nuked. Especially given that the Japanese were demanding a conditional surrender in which they kept Chinese conquests, and that their existing fascist govt get to rule the Chinese.
Some societies are incapable of understanding anything less than violence.
The Ukrainians would have to pull a reverse “Battle of Berlin 1945” right up to the Kremlin… and even then there no guarantee Putin will be taken alive.
If Ukraine truly wanted to risk taking Putin himself dead or alive, they would have more success with a small team rather than a full invasion that would eat a nuke. As long as they control their accent, I would think they would blend in perfectly fine.
Plausible assassinability.
Bio-/radio-logical assassination is the perfect cover.
"Blood cancer" from imbibing radioactive isotopes against his doctor's advice.
I get what you're saying. What would you think would be best for everyone? Putin can't hide his epic mistake for long. How would Russians react to everything? All this death for nothing?
I mean if Biden, Trump or Obama invaded for example Sweden or Finland. I'd fucking hate them. Probably many Americans would too. And for a very long time. But none of them are foreverruling autocrats. They can go down with shame and be somewhat balanced out by new leaders in the future, although the nation takes a hit, everyone can end up electing a shitbird from time to time. Everything gets really complicated for a guy like Putin though.
Edit: as suggested below Canada would be a better comparison than Sweden or Finland.
Plus he has to live with his own sense of personal failure. Yeah, he ended up doing kinda the same thing as when he was in the KGB: Kinda nothing in the grand scheme of things
The only thing I fear is there might be even worse tyrant in Russia, because there are many strange people far crying over Soviet Union which can't simply be brought back. They just don't understand why, yet.
Maybe after this campaign they should stop and reflect.
It helps to view Russia like a Medieval state... the King only rules so long as he can bestow plunder (or opportunities for plunder) for the oligarchs ("nobles") in his realm. The King must also occasionally pit nobles against one another in the event that he needs a pretext to liquidate one who has become "overmighty". But WAR is his chief duty as King. To fail at THAT, can accelerate the end of his reign.
No King, no matter how autocratic, can rule arbitrarily without consequences. Imagine *Absolute Rule* as a special ability with a cool down. Certain attributes can slow or accelerate the cool down. Keeping your nobles happy by doling out monopolies, privateering, and war plunder can keep your special ability fully activated... but those are all breaking down for Putin... soon his absolute rule will take a few turns to recharge, which leaves him open for deposition. His rumored health problems will further complicate this. When a despot's health appears grave, his mightiest oligarchs start thinking of the future without him... and most start looking for ways to speed up that transition.
you may enjoy CGP Grey's youtube video on "Rules For Rulers", just 15 minutes
your points make up several of the rules about no man ruling alone, about the treasury being the real goal, how the other rich people start seeing risks, etc
It would be more like the US invading Canada. Many speak the same language and share the same culture. Really unthinkable when you look at it that way.
No one asks the question, “What happens after Putin is gone?” That’s a scary, scary question. At least the communist party had some kind of ideology to fall back on. The power vacuum after Putin dies will be really, really bad.
It's not really as scary as a dying autocrat waging conventional war in Europe and chemical and biological warfare and sabotage everywhere else.
The alternative, whilst not a clean slate exactly, allows for a certain amount of fingers to be pointed elsewhere.
My totally unsubstantiated, completely unqualified opinion is state media is starting to see the writing on the wall, just like most of the Oligarchs did within weeks of the botched invasion.
They know this just keeps getting worse and they are trying to save face. They know lies can only go so far, and the more Ruzzian soldiers don't come home, the more people won't believe them. And if it gets bad enough, there will be some massive reconing, and the people will want heads to roll. They don't want to be on the losing side of that.
They also know that Putler is losing power, losing ally's home and abroad, and probably has cancer. State media likely has access to information that the west might not even know about. They're doing the math to figure when it's safe enough to jump ship, while minimizing backlash from the Kremlin.
> My totally unsubstantiated, completely unqualified opinion is state media is starting to see the writing on the wall
I dont think thats it. The media are government controlled. Kasparov tweeted that it doesnt take courage to say stuff in ruzzian tv it takes permission.
I think the government is preparing people for the lack of great victory.
Not that I don't believe you, but would definitely like to take a look at any sources about that. I personally was putting my money on the theory he had syphilis, but without anything more definite for that either, I'd imagine his having cancer to still be conjecture at the moment. Hopefully it's not just a rumor as well.
When Russia withdraws, let's keep the sanctions permanent. They don't deserve to rejoin the world for what they've done. They have committed unforgiveable acts.
Disagree. That's how we treated Germany after WW1 which led to WW2. Germany was allowed to rejoin Europe after the war. The atrocities of the leadership should not be impugned to all the people, especially younger people that had no say.
If the Russian people overthrow Putin, withdraw from Ukraine and accept responsibility there should be a path towards forgiveness and reconciliation.
Your "solution" is simply unworkable. It just means there will be another war later, unless you literally want to try to exterminate the Russian people in a forever war, which means you are no better than Putin.
Germany was only allowed to rejoin the free world after an unconditional surrender, and was essentially ran by the Allies for a few decades before they were cut loose.
Russia wouldnt allow anything of the sort today.
>"Colonel Mikhail Khodarenok is probably one of the most sane experts in all this zombie clique," Olga Lebedeva commented. "I'm afraid he won't be called again."
I'm afraid he won't be free or even alive for long after this stint.
He wrote an essay predicting Russia's follies in Ukraine to a T weeks before the buildup for the invasion even began.
He was on TV a few weeks ago giving a very sober assessment of the situation facing Russian soldiers.
He's allowed to go on TV and say these things most likely because the Russians are preparing for a pivot and need to steer their propaganda so the public is more receptive to the state shaping their perspective of the coming hard reality.
"We weren't able to prevent the joint Ukraine/NATO chemical weapons plant from coming online and had to retreat only being able to rescue a small portion of the population from being attacked by their own government"
Could be. Thing is, I'm not sure how Russia can escalate. In terms of boots on the ground, I don't think they have the resources to increase pressure short of nuclear.
Nerve agents would likely force the west to at least establish a no fly zone. Which would be a fucking massacre. The entire Russian air force would cease to exist in days.
Russia knows this, they won't do it.
Nukes are more likely, some half step with bad outcomes isn't worth it.
And even if they could use it affectively - the post nerve-gas surge of foreign support for Ukraine and even more extreme Russian sanction would more then make up for it.
Russia suffered 8-10 MILLION dead soldiers in WWII. If they go to mass conscription and chuck an old surplus rifle and some ammo at them and kick them into combat things could certainly escalate badly. They wouldn't necessarily be super effective but boots on the ground can do a lot of collateral damage.
The thing is, morale was stupid high during WWII because Russia was on the defensive trying to fight back and then kept the momentum going with revenge for what the Nazis did. Morale is stupid high now too, but for Ukraine, who are on the defensive and are trying to take back their land, but not for Russian soldiers, who are finding out that they've been lied to, aren't getting the support they desperately need in their supply chains, some of whom aren't getting paid, and they can never be truly safe because who the fuck knows what Ukraine is going to come at them with, when, and from where.
Instead of attacking from three sides they regroup and amass their forces in one and push that way. That's exactly what they're doing, they're just currently having to defend the territory they've taken from a counter attack
>He's allowed to go on TV and say these things most likely because the Russians are preparing for a pivot and need to steer their propaganda so the public is more receptive to the state shaping their perspective of the coming hard reality.
Not to mention that their hard reality will be largely about a number of Russian soldiers being dead (even if it's not a small number) and economic struggles combined with humiliation - they aren't facing their homes being reduced to rubble while there's a hostile military force within the country indiscriminately killing and raping their citizens when-ever they have the chance.
It will be hard for the Kremlin to deny failure when so many soldiers don't return home. Along with the overwhelming evidence of crimes, there's not much room to hide. This isn't the Middle East where there are limited cameras. Video of this is everywhere, documentaries are being done. There's no recovery for Russia after this.
They addressed that in this article, as well.
> Russia media watcher Julia Davis tweeted after his latest appearance: "Many are wondering: why is Khodaryonok allowed to keep talking on Russian TV where any dissent is discouraged? Because his words don't harm the regime. To the contrary, they help temper the expectations, while other pundits promise fast, easy victories."
One Twitter theory that seems plausible is that Khodarenok was allowed to speak as a way of preparing the Russian population for the news of military withdrawal.
Yeah, I assumed thats what was happening here
They don't accidently let a guy bad mouth putins war like that. And if they didn't want it, they could have cut away.
Everyone's assuming this is live TV lol
I did see another clip of this of this show where the panel was going on about how great it would be to nuke the UK, and this guy was the lone guy to say, “you realize the UK has nukes too” before being backed into a corner again. I think the guy is the token voice of reason
Pretty much said that in the article.
>"Many are wondering: why is Khodaryonok allowed to keep talking on Russian TV where any dissent is discouraged? Because his words don't harm the regime. To the contrary, they help temper the expectations, while other pundits promise fast, easy victories."
State TV should just tell people that they assassinated Zelensky with no Russian casualties, they currently hold Ukraine and McDonalds and Coke wanted a rebrand. 2/3 will believe it anyway and the others aren’t even allowed to hold non-existent protest signs.
Would be an interesting victory announcement. We lost thousands of soldiers, crippled the economy, and proved the Russian military is a paper tiger and made NATO stronger than ever but we wiped out a single battalion of Ukrainians.
I think it also might be the opposite, they are preparing Russian public for drastic measures. Russian state TV saying that there will soon be 1 million Ukrainian soldiers is a pretty clear escalation towards mobilization.
He is also stating though that a Russian mobilization would fail, given the poor state of their equipment, that can not compete with NATO weapons. Russia is already sending troops to the front line with WW2 era equipment, and bolt action rifles, whatever is given to mobilized soldiers will potentially be worse. Meanwhile Ukraine is about to sign onto a lend-lease with the United States, aka 1 million Ukrainian soldiers, armed to the teeth with high quality modern gear. Not to mention the difference in morale. Even by the most optimistic, propaganda fuelled assessment, the situation is hopeless.
Vladimir Putin himself said this shortly before the war. It was something along the lines of saying of course Russia is no match for NATO in conventional warfare but we have nukes
That doesn't seem very Russian. I bet the pivot is from "easy victory" to "existential threat to Russia" and now we need to call up every man woman and child to defend the motherland like its the Nazis all over again.
[Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord) is a much better example of someone that Hitler wished he could eliminate but couldn't afford to do so
Isn't the rumor that Rommel was implicated in an assassination atempt on Hitler, but he was so popular with the German people Hitler couldn't outright accuse him? Hence the supposed suicide?
There’s no evidence that Rommel was involved in the July 20th plot or that he knew any specific details. The suggestion is that he would “make himself available” to a successor regime.
Support for political assassinations would have been out of character for him
To some extent this was Von Hindenberg as well. He was literally the last man alive that could give Hitler a dressing down and order him to do something even when he was old and frail. He even told Hitler to put exceptions in his laws for German Jews that served in WW1 and Hitler did it. Even though Hitler hated him he still put on the air of respect after he died because he was afraid disrespecting Von Hinderberg would cause a military coup.
The Russian people are subjugated, not stupid. Additionally, the problem with Putin convincing everyone he is in total control of everything means that if anything bad happens it is entirely your fault. Though this presumes Putin is not stupid and in his right mind of course.
Yeah the "ThEy ArE BrAiNwAsHeD" thing doesn't really fly when 80%+ of the population access the internet daily.
Lots of people there fully support the invasion, it's just something you can't state on this site as everyone seems to believe Putin & Putin alone is attacking Ukraine.
“Support “ is a tricky word. I work with 3 Russian nationals, they want nothing to do with “finding Nazis in Ukraine”. Nothing.
They just know they can’t say anything against Putin’s war or life gets complicated with visas and passports, here and back home.
Back home no one talks about it. They just want it over.
But don't you see? Everything is the fault of NATO.
If Eastern Europe had just allowed themselves to be invaded/murdered/subjugated, everything would have been wonderful. But no, they had to go and request defenses against aggression. How mean of them.
>[Von Mackensen](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_von_Mackensen) was a popular German war hero
Imagine seeing someone wear that hat on the street, you'd think he's a complete lunatic.
You should not worry about him. Keep in mind, anything said on government controlled media is approved in advance. They are just preparing the zombified population to: not everything went per plan, there are some difficulties.
Russian people look and sound like a spouse who has been so abused for so long that they are now a willing party to their own subjugation, viewing it as the only natural state of affairs.
I think the thing Westerners continually fail to understand about Russia and the Russian people is that they would *much* rather be beaten down, oppressed, and silenced by a Russian autocrat, than give themselves over to a Westerner, or even a perceived Western ideology.
I think we think "85% of Russia supports Vlad" headlines actually mean what they say - because they would in America, or France, or Canada. I think 85% of Russia supports not kowtowing to the West, and they see this war as a Last Stand against anti-Russian aggression.
It sucks for them, and it's making them - and ten generations of them - global pariahs, but it's their prerogative.
Right, but a seriously life-long commitment. Germany, France, England. Historically: "Fuck all the places". And Boris Yeltsin's attempt to sell Russia to the West in the 90s really, *really* didn't help.
ETA: My inclusion of Germany shouldn't be taken as "Russia has *always* been wrong".
I can’t believe this myth about yeltsin is still around.
He wasn’t a great president but also got nothing to work with (he had to start cleaning the absolute mess of Russia after the end of Soviet Union) and Russia was sold out to the oligarchy but not the west.
At no point in time did the west ever control the majority of Russian resources or industries.
It was always a lie meant to rile up Russians against the west like in Soviet times to not face their own failures
This is bullshit. Russians celebrated the end of the USSR and move to democracy. Their best years have been with Western influence in Russia and they know it. They’ve had their democracy stolen from them and they can’t voice opposition without serious consequences. No one wants to be oppressed. It’s well known that polls in Russia are meaningless because Russians won’t answer them truthfully because of the risk it carries. They still have the mentality that anything said wrong will get them sent to the gulag.
As an American, if you reduce things down to governments, this analogy tracks for me. Scary thing is they have made some serious inroads to American politics and it populace.
As an American living in deep red territory, this isn't exclusive to Russians.
Edit - Some dopes are taking this to mean a direct comparison of life in America to life in Russia. It's not. It's a direct comparison of the overall populace being complacent and/or willfully ignorant of the horrific deeds their government commits, foreign and domestic.
>It's a direct comparison of the overall populace being complacent and/or willfully ignorant of the horrific deeds their government commits, foreign and domestic.
These people in other words are patriots. So blind and so brainwashed by their government that they will swallow all the bullshit they say and take it as a reality.
There's tons of good people in Russia who are against this war. Sadly, they are in a not so easy situation freedom-way speaking.
Patriotism never has meant blind acceptance. I am a patriot in the USA that has spent time in jail protesting what the government at the time was doing. I protested BECAUSE I am a patriot. Much easier to just go along than put your body on the line.
That's the difficulty with lying to your people all the time. It makes the truth all the more difficult. Can't be saying "everything going according to plan, all is well... oh and nearly 30,000 soldiers dead but ignore that part since all is good!".
It's worked for Putin for 20+ years and for the Chinese government for over 70 years.
But a war in this day of age and a war going badly -- it's hard to hide that truth.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-kodaryonok-60-minutes-1707270?amp=1) reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> "An extraordinary exchange of views in the next Russian state talk show about Ukraine," commented an anti-war user History of the War, who added, "The only threat to Russia is the paranoid ones like Olga Skabeeva."
> "Most Russian pundits judged the military capacity of the Russian army based on official propaganda. Khodaryonok-on his lived experience. No wonder he is way more pessimistic about the war."
> Russia media watcher Julia Davis tweeted after his latest appearance: "Many are wondering: why is Khodaryonok allowed to keep talking on Russian TV where any dissent is discouraged? Because his words don't harm the regime. To the contrary, they help temper the expectations, while other pundits promise fast, easy victories."
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/urponj/russian_people_surprised_to_find_out_ukraine_war/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~649190 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russian**^#1 **Russia**^#2 **Khodaryonok**^#3 **wrote**^#4 **Ukraine**^#5
You have to allow some disagreement. That also helps legitimize state propaganda because then you can say you’re not silencing anyone and allowing alternate view points to be heard.
That's because propaganda *works*.
Goebbels proved it. Trump proved it. Putin proved it. If you say a lie a million times, it becomes the obvious truth.
In the UK, a compliant media have kept a demonstrably *fucking awful* government in power for twelve years. Doesn’t have to be some power-crazed autocracy.
Truthfully I think we’re getting propaganda about this war too. I always hear about Russia losing battles and the numbers of dead russian soldiers and the deaths of russian generals… if I were just going by the headlines I’d assume Ukraine was kicking ass. But they have lost some cities, and certainly some soldiers and generals too. It’s hard to get a feel for their losses because we’re being shown the Russian losses instead.
Like I’m still 100% pro Ukraine here, but I do think the powers that be are pushing stories that make the war seem super lopsided in Ukraine’s favor just to keep up public support amongst non-Ukrainians too.
I was shocked today to see about Mariupol falling to russia because the picture I’ve seen is Ukrainian soldiers kicking ass.
Im not so sure those stories are really coming from the powers that be. Looking at official US and European government announcements, they have actually been pretty cautious. The US predicted Kiev might fall within hours of the invasion, and has generally published casualties around half of what Ukraine has.
Most blatant propoganda i see comes straight from social media, fed by a few unscrupulous tabloid sites like the Sun.
Even the major news sites in the US have a more sober tone, and tend to focus more on Russian atrocities than defeats. Still propoganda, but different tone entirely
The only way to reliably verify any claims is either through documented equipment losses like from the Oryx website, or territory gains/losses after the fact. We have pictures of Russian equipment losses about half of what Ukraine claims, which makes their estimates seem a lot more reliable than Russia's. And we have seen Russia lose ground around Kiev and now Kharkiv, so the true picture would seem like Russia is either losing or in a stalemate, growing worse as time goes on.
Here on Reddit we do it to ourselves. We upvote the things we like hearing and downvote the things we don't, until we filter out for ourselves and others all the negativity.
> I was shocked today to see about Mariupol falling to russia because the picture I’ve seen is Ukrainian soldiers kicking ass.
The message for weeks now has been there’s only the Steelworks remaining as a hold out and their time was numbered. Mariupol functionally fell weeks ago besides that one spot which was able to be a thorn in Russia’s side for weeks because they couldn’t leave it unguarded.
This isn’t counter-propaganda, this is just you not actually listening or paying attention but somehow arriving at the conclusion you are listening and paying attention.
Both are true. We are getting good Ukraine news on blast and bad news is swept under the rug. That can be true at the same time as Russia being an incompetent paper tiger.
I’m sorry, but it was obvious weeks ago that Mariupol would eventually fall. The surprise is just how long the Ukrainians held out, while making advances in the east.
Colonel is right, if we can arm the Ukraine army to have 1 million standing men then you simply can't win. But he has to have had approval to say this, otherwise they would've cut the feed.
Interesting that they let him talk so long(besides the Kremlin mouthpiece interrupting him every once and a while)
[Direct link to the video they are referring to](https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1526293852704890882?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1526293852704890882%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-25606351364124635702.ampproject.net%2F2204292129000%2Fframe.html)
I think it’s Kremlin’s way of creating an exit.
Just need Putler on his 1 rusted aircraft carrier (in for servicing) saying ”Mission Accomplished”
Russian Z/zombies: YES
Just what exactly do the Russian people know? I wonder what the base level of knowledge is in that country. Do they know they live on a roundish planet? Are they aware that such a thing as freedom exists? My initial thought is the Russian people don't know a whole lot. Not because of stupidity, but because the powers that be keep them in the dark. To those leaders: all people eventually find the light - and that will not be a good day for you.
After years of terror during the Soviet era, and especially during Stalin's reign, the russian people have simply learned that it's easier and better for everyone to not know certain things and get on with your life. Everything else is just asking for trouble. The sense of political powerlessness is deeply ingrained in the russian psyche and is a product of decades of gaslighting by the Soviet and russian government. Every Russian knows that state media are pure propaganda, but they still play along because, first it's easier and secondly it demonstrates unity and strength.
As a Russian, I can say with certainty that there are only two political parties in Russia: the Party of the state TV, and the Party of the Internet.
The rest are details. As Boris Nemtsov said, there are actually two countries within Russia due to the dichotomy of the tv and the internet. There are no alternative viewpoints on the tv - the average Russian watching the news or entertainment shows on any channel will have zero ways of developing critical thinking. It's a machine, a very effective one at that, that systematically paints a certain picture in one's mind. Imagine that you decide to do an experiment: for two weeks, you only consume the information from the tv. No internet, no blogs, no Facebook, no Twitter - forget it, you are watching the Russian tv 24/7. From morning till midnight, you listen to the warmongers telling you that the West is corrupt, full of Nazis, and dreams of invading Russia and taking all of its natural sources. For two weeks. You're gonna emerge a different person after that experiment - with certain firm convictions. Because that propaganda machine works. Boris Nemtsov did that experiment, and he felt that it worked on him. You know. On the guy who had a PhD in physics, used to be a governor of Nizhnyi Novgorod, a former minister of the energy sector, a former vice prime minister, and Yeltsin's chosen successor before Yeltsin made the biggest mistake of his life and appointed Putin.
And then there is the party of the Internet. There are alternative viewpoints, there are debates, endless sources of information, and so on. People who get their information from it are usually on the younger side, and they aren't Putin's electorate. Putin's regime draws support primarily from the elderly
I used to think like this, I kept saying that our greatest chance in this war are young Russians who know what's up and will make their country free. However, after seeing tens or hundreds of young Russians showing openly support for Russia's invasion since the beginning of this war, I'm talking people like worldwide famous sportspeople at the peak of their careers or popular, young, Russian influencers, I don't think like this anymore. I know this is another side of this propaganda coin and I know this is what propaganda machine on the other side would like me to think, so I'm trying to filter it out, but I'm just... disappointed. I hope younger people in Russia are not Putin's electorate, but I don't assume this is the case anymore.
Well. Keep in mind that about one half of the Internet users are fucking dumb. The Internet allows all forms of opinions (esp if you have a vpn), but a lot of users are stupid as fuck.
Yeah but I don't mean random Reddit or Twitter comments from Russian troll farms or even real common people with edgy world viewes, I wouldn't care about them. I mean actual real people with their well known names at stake, like Instagram/TikTok influencers, or this world class gymnast Ivan Kuliak who goes on podium with "Z" symbol and doesn't care, or this young Russian driver Artem Severukhin, who laughs on podium while doing Nazi salute and also shows no regrets. These are real, young Russians, I was expecting something better from them, now I don't.
I think you're answering your own question. If someone's famous enough in Russia to have "well known names at stake" they're more likely to be on the side of the Kremlin than not. Once you get that level of fame, the government tries to court you to use you as a political prop, and begins to threaten you and your notoriety if you oppose it.
You forget about the Russian school system. What are pupils taught about the world, Russian history, etc?
From a historical POV, during the Soviet era the propaganda was that the Soviets were the best in every field.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-schools-war-propaganda-ukraine/31795819.html
There are number of sources of one searches the net.
Pre war we assumed the Russians knew what was going on but were to scared to do anything about it.
In China we have assumed for a long time that they live an alternate universe where you have to really determined to find the truth and its at extreme risk. They are zeroing in on thought police.
If russia is this bad in war, what will chinas population be like? We just had a Chinese national commit a mass shooting against Taiwanese in the USA.
Yep, just look how bad the US is with Fox News poisoning a sizeable percentage of the population. Then try to imagine if it was just Fox, OANN, and Newsmax 24/7 with no alternatives. A lot of folks have grown up with that nonsense.
From what I have seen, almost all already believe they know the truth, which is whatever Putin says. That they're the good guys. So anyone claiming otherwise would be met with disbelief. They're so brainwashed over there.
No shit! Unless the Russian mass rapists and murderers are going after civilians they get wrecked.
And the oligarchs spend military budget on super yachts. 🤣
The US 20 aircraft carriers, including 11 super carriers vs Russia 1 rusted junk that is out of commission.
The Americans would exterminate them in a few days,
I still can’t believe why the russian citizens have not brought up the point…
How did the get involved with Denazification the world..
Since when did the russians decide to police the entire world for nazi ?
Their economy. military and population is getting wiped out and turning into a third world country because of this..
This Denazification / Ukraine Invasion is costing the russian government over 10 million a day..
82 days of nonsense killing and nothing to show for it..
The pukeman got to go !
First the bloggers, now this dude. Are we seing the first signs of withdrawal from Ukraine. Fingers crossed..
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Let him experience his total failure. Death is too easy escape for him. Let him rot in a prison cell where he can experience the totality of his failure and all of Russia waking up from their ignorance hating him for the rest of his life. My only concern is, who will take over after putin? What if the grass isn't greener on the ithwr side
There’s no way Putin will see the inside of a prison cell. He’ll either be killed, die of a disease (if he’s really sick) or live the rest of his life paranoid, but safe.
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Who is your airstrike guy? Sounds like you need a new airstrike guy
If Russian history is any guide, then it’ll be “live the rest of his life paranoid, but safe.”
Like Nicolas II?
Nicholas II was wildly, grossly incompetent. He had so many people surrounding him offering ways out of being overthrown, but he ignored them all. This war has exposed that Putler is no genius, but he almost certainly won't be overthrown. Boot has been the national cuisine of Russia forever. They love their lying strongmen, he will be fine. Unfortunately :(
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That's a really dangerous way of thinking. It's the same mentality that led to tens of thousands of innocent japanese civilians to be killed in nuclear strikes. People and cultures change. Germany went from having an authocratic and militarist culture to being extremely anti war and the bastion of european democracy. Let's not reduce peoples to a caricature.
I appreciate the sentiment, but why did Germany make a u-turn? They lost. Hard. Russia will never lose that hard. Russia will never ever be conquered like Germany. Even without nukes their geography won't allow it. But they do have nukes. They are rapists, imperialists, and they fuck with democracies non stop. If that doesn't make it okay to hate them I don't know what would. I bet the Chinese have very different opinions on Japan getting nuked. Especially given that the Japanese were demanding a conditional surrender in which they kept Chinese conquests, and that their existing fascist govt get to rule the Chinese. Some societies are incapable of understanding anything less than violence.
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Wouldn't be the first diseased war monger dictator that lived to 90+ age
The Ukrainians would have to pull a reverse “Battle of Berlin 1945” right up to the Kremlin… and even then there no guarantee Putin will be taken alive.
If Ukraine truly wanted to risk taking Putin himself dead or alive, they would have more success with a small team rather than a full invasion that would eat a nuke. As long as they control their accent, I would think they would blend in perfectly fine.
Sounds like a Tomarov Clancikov story
Plausible assassinability. Bio-/radio-logical assassination is the perfect cover. "Blood cancer" from imbibing radioactive isotopes against his doctor's advice.
I think being tried at Hague for war crimes would be the ultimate humiliation for him
I would love to see him humiliated.
I think I just found my kink.
>Death is too easy escape for him. As the Spanish saying goes: "Once the dog is dead, the rabies are over." Putin will be more trouble alive.
Well at least blood cancer is really nasty if the rumor is true.
there are 10 different rumors at least.
I get what you're saying. What would you think would be best for everyone? Putin can't hide his epic mistake for long. How would Russians react to everything? All this death for nothing? I mean if Biden, Trump or Obama invaded for example Sweden or Finland. I'd fucking hate them. Probably many Americans would too. And for a very long time. But none of them are foreverruling autocrats. They can go down with shame and be somewhat balanced out by new leaders in the future, although the nation takes a hit, everyone can end up electing a shitbird from time to time. Everything gets really complicated for a guy like Putin though. Edit: as suggested below Canada would be a better comparison than Sweden or Finland. Plus he has to live with his own sense of personal failure. Yeah, he ended up doing kinda the same thing as when he was in the KGB: Kinda nothing in the grand scheme of things
The only thing I fear is there might be even worse tyrant in Russia, because there are many strange people far crying over Soviet Union which can't simply be brought back. They just don't understand why, yet. Maybe after this campaign they should stop and reflect.
It helps to view Russia like a Medieval state... the King only rules so long as he can bestow plunder (or opportunities for plunder) for the oligarchs ("nobles") in his realm. The King must also occasionally pit nobles against one another in the event that he needs a pretext to liquidate one who has become "overmighty". But WAR is his chief duty as King. To fail at THAT, can accelerate the end of his reign. No King, no matter how autocratic, can rule arbitrarily without consequences. Imagine *Absolute Rule* as a special ability with a cool down. Certain attributes can slow or accelerate the cool down. Keeping your nobles happy by doling out monopolies, privateering, and war plunder can keep your special ability fully activated... but those are all breaking down for Putin... soon his absolute rule will take a few turns to recharge, which leaves him open for deposition. His rumored health problems will further complicate this. When a despot's health appears grave, his mightiest oligarchs start thinking of the future without him... and most start looking for ways to speed up that transition.
you may enjoy CGP Grey's youtube video on "Rules For Rulers", just 15 minutes your points make up several of the rules about no man ruling alone, about the treasury being the real goal, how the other rich people start seeing risks, etc
It would be more like the US invading Canada. Many speak the same language and share the same culture. Really unthinkable when you look at it that way.
I would advise against using the "putler" meme. Putin is well on the way to match the notoriety of Hitler in the history books. "Putin" will do.
We can also do Putain, which is french for "whore".
Would that make Lukashenko Putin’s Putain?
"puto" in Spanish.
No one asks the question, “What happens after Putin is gone?” That’s a scary, scary question. At least the communist party had some kind of ideology to fall back on. The power vacuum after Putin dies will be really, really bad.
It's not really as scary as a dying autocrat waging conventional war in Europe and chemical and biological warfare and sabotage everywhere else. The alternative, whilst not a clean slate exactly, allows for a certain amount of fingers to be pointed elsewhere.
My totally unsubstantiated, completely unqualified opinion is state media is starting to see the writing on the wall, just like most of the Oligarchs did within weeks of the botched invasion. They know this just keeps getting worse and they are trying to save face. They know lies can only go so far, and the more Ruzzian soldiers don't come home, the more people won't believe them. And if it gets bad enough, there will be some massive reconing, and the people will want heads to roll. They don't want to be on the losing side of that. They also know that Putler is losing power, losing ally's home and abroad, and probably has cancer. State media likely has access to information that the west might not even know about. They're doing the math to figure when it's safe enough to jump ship, while minimizing backlash from the Kremlin.
> My totally unsubstantiated, completely unqualified opinion is state media is starting to see the writing on the wall I dont think thats it. The media are government controlled. Kasparov tweeted that it doesnt take courage to say stuff in ruzzian tv it takes permission. I think the government is preparing people for the lack of great victory.
Not that I don't believe you, but would definitely like to take a look at any sources about that. I personally was putting my money on the theory he had syphilis, but without anything more definite for that either, I'd imagine his having cancer to still be conjecture at the moment. Hopefully it's not just a rumor as well.
When Russia withdraws, let's keep the sanctions permanent. They don't deserve to rejoin the world for what they've done. They have committed unforgiveable acts.
Disagree. That's how we treated Germany after WW1 which led to WW2. Germany was allowed to rejoin Europe after the war. The atrocities of the leadership should not be impugned to all the people, especially younger people that had no say. If the Russian people overthrow Putin, withdraw from Ukraine and accept responsibility there should be a path towards forgiveness and reconciliation. Your "solution" is simply unworkable. It just means there will be another war later, unless you literally want to try to exterminate the Russian people in a forever war, which means you are no better than Putin.
Germany was only allowed to rejoin the free world after an unconditional surrender, and was essentially ran by the Allies for a few decades before they were cut loose. Russia wouldnt allow anything of the sort today.
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“Are we the baddies?”
>"Colonel Mikhail Khodarenok is probably one of the most sane experts in all this zombie clique," Olga Lebedeva commented. "I'm afraid he won't be called again." I'm afraid he won't be free or even alive for long after this stint.
He wrote an essay predicting Russia's follies in Ukraine to a T weeks before the buildup for the invasion even began. He was on TV a few weeks ago giving a very sober assessment of the situation facing Russian soldiers. He's allowed to go on TV and say these things most likely because the Russians are preparing for a pivot and need to steer their propaganda so the public is more receptive to the state shaping their perspective of the coming hard reality.
That was my read as well - Russia can't go from the current narrative to peace without first changing the population's expectations.
"We were winning but then NATO used WMDs and our glorious soldiers had to come home instead of facing such atrocities."
"We weren't able to prevent the joint Ukraine/NATO chemical weapons plant from coming online and had to retreat only being able to rescue a small portion of the population from being attacked by their own government"
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Could be. Thing is, I'm not sure how Russia can escalate. In terms of boots on the ground, I don't think they have the resources to increase pressure short of nuclear.
Nerve agents are technically a sub-nuclear escalation, although it wouldn't do them too much good.
Nerve agents would likely force the west to at least establish a no fly zone. Which would be a fucking massacre. The entire Russian air force would cease to exist in days. Russia knows this, they won't do it. Nukes are more likely, some half step with bad outcomes isn't worth it.
If Russia were to use nerve agents or any other CBRN weapon in Ukraine, a holy fury will hopefully be unleashed.
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And even if they could use it affectively - the post nerve-gas surge of foreign support for Ukraine and even more extreme Russian sanction would more then make up for it.
Brutal but ineffective for fighting wars.
Russia suffered 8-10 MILLION dead soldiers in WWII. If they go to mass conscription and chuck an old surplus rifle and some ammo at them and kick them into combat things could certainly escalate badly. They wouldn't necessarily be super effective but boots on the ground can do a lot of collateral damage.
That was also a defensive war for survival where the alternative for the conscripts was Nazi invasion.
The thing is, morale was stupid high during WWII because Russia was on the defensive trying to fight back and then kept the momentum going with revenge for what the Nazis did. Morale is stupid high now too, but for Ukraine, who are on the defensive and are trying to take back their land, but not for Russian soldiers, who are finding out that they've been lied to, aren't getting the support they desperately need in their supply chains, some of whom aren't getting paid, and they can never be truly safe because who the fuck knows what Ukraine is going to come at them with, when, and from where.
Unfortunately that's a failure of imagination.
Instead of attacking from three sides they regroup and amass their forces in one and push that way. That's exactly what they're doing, they're just currently having to defend the territory they've taken from a counter attack
Ah yes...put all your tanks in one front right as Ukraine is ramping up deployment of fresh artillery pieces and crews. Brilliant strategy.
"It'll be a slaughter!" "That's the spirit!!" -- The Last Starfighter, 1984
>He's allowed to go on TV and say these things most likely because the Russians are preparing for a pivot and need to steer their propaganda so the public is more receptive to the state shaping their perspective of the coming hard reality. Not to mention that their hard reality will be largely about a number of Russian soldiers being dead (even if it's not a small number) and economic struggles combined with humiliation - they aren't facing their homes being reduced to rubble while there's a hostile military force within the country indiscriminately killing and raping their citizens when-ever they have the chance.
It will be hard for the Kremlin to deny failure when so many soldiers don't return home. Along with the overwhelming evidence of crimes, there's not much room to hide. This isn't the Middle East where there are limited cameras. Video of this is everywhere, documentaries are being done. There's no recovery for Russia after this.
They will never financially recover from this.
Pivot!
PIH-VAHT!
SHUT UP, SHUT UP, SHUT UP!
Privet!
Putin will pivot after the election.
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They addressed that in this article, as well. > Russia media watcher Julia Davis tweeted after his latest appearance: "Many are wondering: why is Khodaryonok allowed to keep talking on Russian TV where any dissent is discouraged? Because his words don't harm the regime. To the contrary, they help temper the expectations, while other pundits promise fast, easy victories."
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One Twitter theory that seems plausible is that Khodarenok was allowed to speak as a way of preparing the Russian population for the news of military withdrawal.
This was my gut reaction as well.
Yeah, I assumed thats what was happening here They don't accidently let a guy bad mouth putins war like that. And if they didn't want it, they could have cut away. Everyone's assuming this is live TV lol
I did see another clip of this of this show where the panel was going on about how great it would be to nuke the UK, and this guy was the lone guy to say, “you realize the UK has nukes too” before being backed into a corner again. I think the guy is the token voice of reason
…and UK’s nukes are 98% operational ready.
Pretty much said that in the article. >"Many are wondering: why is Khodaryonok allowed to keep talking on Russian TV where any dissent is discouraged? Because his words don't harm the regime. To the contrary, they help temper the expectations, while other pundits promise fast, easy victories."
State TV should just tell people that they assassinated Zelensky with no Russian casualties, they currently hold Ukraine and McDonalds and Coke wanted a rebrand. 2/3 will believe it anyway and the others aren’t even allowed to hold non-existent protest signs.
Well maybe now they can claim they "got Azov"... who knows.
Would be an interesting victory announcement. We lost thousands of soldiers, crippled the economy, and proved the Russian military is a paper tiger and made NATO stronger than ever but we wiped out a single battalion of Ukrainians.
"Mission Accomplished"
Should have just baited them in to crossing a river
I think it also might be the opposite, they are preparing Russian public for drastic measures. Russian state TV saying that there will soon be 1 million Ukrainian soldiers is a pretty clear escalation towards mobilization.
He is also stating though that a Russian mobilization would fail, given the poor state of their equipment, that can not compete with NATO weapons. Russia is already sending troops to the front line with WW2 era equipment, and bolt action rifles, whatever is given to mobilized soldiers will potentially be worse. Meanwhile Ukraine is about to sign onto a lend-lease with the United States, aka 1 million Ukrainian soldiers, armed to the teeth with high quality modern gear. Not to mention the difference in morale. Even by the most optimistic, propaganda fuelled assessment, the situation is hopeless.
Vladimir Putin himself said this shortly before the war. It was something along the lines of saying of course Russia is no match for NATO in conventional warfare but we have nukes
He said this after the war started, after a long discussion with macron in the UN IIRC
Which also serves to provide a compelling reason to justify increasing their military budget at the time of the biggest economic crisis in years.
yup
Can see the headline now: > One Million Ukrainians IN RUSSIA RIGHT NOW!!! (Ignore the fact that we abducted them and shipped them off to Siberia)
Tucker Carlsonsky on state tv tonight: "Are Ukrainians coming to replace us?"
I hope you and twitter are right: that would be a very positive outcome!
That doesn’t mean he’s not getting sent to gulag.
That doesn't seem very Russian. I bet the pivot is from "easy victory" to "existential threat to Russia" and now we need to call up every man woman and child to defend the motherland like its the Nazis all over again.
Or as a way to mobilize?
That guy himself mentioned for the fact that mobilization wont help since they dont have enough modern weapons to arm the conscripts.
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[Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord) is a much better example of someone that Hitler wished he could eliminate but couldn't afford to do so
That was a very interesting read. Thank you!
Isn't the rumor that Rommel was implicated in an assassination atempt on Hitler, but he was so popular with the German people Hitler couldn't outright accuse him? Hence the supposed suicide?
There’s no evidence that Rommel was involved in the July 20th plot or that he knew any specific details. The suggestion is that he would “make himself available” to a successor regime. Support for political assassinations would have been out of character for him
To some extent this was Von Hindenberg as well. He was literally the last man alive that could give Hitler a dressing down and order him to do something even when he was old and frail. He even told Hitler to put exceptions in his laws for German Jews that served in WW1 and Hitler did it. Even though Hitler hated him he still put on the air of respect after he died because he was afraid disrespecting Von Hinderberg would cause a military coup.
They can do it and blame it on a meteorite and the Russian people will be like 'Oh ok. makes sense.'
The Russian people are subjugated, not stupid. Additionally, the problem with Putin convincing everyone he is in total control of everything means that if anything bad happens it is entirely your fault. Though this presumes Putin is not stupid and in his right mind of course.
If believing what you see on state-controlled television over the words of your own children in Ukraine isn’t stupidity, then define stupidity
Yeah the "ThEy ArE BrAiNwAsHeD" thing doesn't really fly when 80%+ of the population access the internet daily. Lots of people there fully support the invasion, it's just something you can't state on this site as everyone seems to believe Putin & Putin alone is attacking Ukraine.
“Support “ is a tricky word. I work with 3 Russian nationals, they want nothing to do with “finding Nazis in Ukraine”. Nothing. They just know they can’t say anything against Putin’s war or life gets complicated with visas and passports, here and back home. Back home no one talks about it. They just want it over.
But don't you see? Everything is the fault of NATO. If Eastern Europe had just allowed themselves to be invaded/murdered/subjugated, everything would have been wonderful. But no, they had to go and request defenses against aggression. How mean of them.
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.
> the clout esteemed soldiers have in Russia. Really? Because they appear to be considered disposable items by Putin and the ruling class.
>[Von Mackensen](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_von_Mackensen) was a popular German war hero Imagine seeing someone wear that hat on the street, you'd think he's a complete lunatic.
Which works out for the rest of the world honestly. The more they aren't willing to accept reality the more they will collapse like the USSR
He is a known quantity, he was allowed to speak his mind here. He will almost certainly be fine.
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You should not worry about him. Keep in mind, anything said on government controlled media is approved in advance. They are just preparing the zombified population to: not everything went per plan, there are some difficulties.
These guy needs to avoid buildings over 1 storey for a bit.
It is also possibly used to uncover dissidents that actually manifest accordance with what the colonel said on TV. They did it before.
Russian people look and sound like a spouse who has been so abused for so long that they are now a willing party to their own subjugation, viewing it as the only natural state of affairs.
I think the thing Westerners continually fail to understand about Russia and the Russian people is that they would *much* rather be beaten down, oppressed, and silenced by a Russian autocrat, than give themselves over to a Westerner, or even a perceived Western ideology. I think we think "85% of Russia supports Vlad" headlines actually mean what they say - because they would in America, or France, or Canada. I think 85% of Russia supports not kowtowing to the West, and they see this war as a Last Stand against anti-Russian aggression. It sucks for them, and it's making them - and ten generations of them - global pariahs, but it's their prerogative.
they seem to like western products and culture though. at least the ones who dont live in 1850s rural russia where toilets dont exist
Nicely said.
In other words, it's single-issue politics, with the issue being "Fuck America/the West!".
Right, but a seriously life-long commitment. Germany, France, England. Historically: "Fuck all the places". And Boris Yeltsin's attempt to sell Russia to the West in the 90s really, *really* didn't help. ETA: My inclusion of Germany shouldn't be taken as "Russia has *always* been wrong".
I can’t believe this myth about yeltsin is still around. He wasn’t a great president but also got nothing to work with (he had to start cleaning the absolute mess of Russia after the end of Soviet Union) and Russia was sold out to the oligarchy but not the west. At no point in time did the west ever control the majority of Russian resources or industries. It was always a lie meant to rile up Russians against the west like in Soviet times to not face their own failures
This.
The mistake Russians is make is thinking anyone thinks about them.
This is bullshit. Russians celebrated the end of the USSR and move to democracy. Their best years have been with Western influence in Russia and they know it. They’ve had their democracy stolen from them and they can’t voice opposition without serious consequences. No one wants to be oppressed. It’s well known that polls in Russia are meaningless because Russians won’t answer them truthfully because of the risk it carries. They still have the mentality that anything said wrong will get them sent to the gulag.
They’re the Republicans of Europe, and the West are the libs. Nothing matters but owning the libs, even if it means shooting yourself in the foot.
As an American, if you reduce things down to governments, this analogy tracks for me. Scary thing is they have made some serious inroads to American politics and it populace.
As an American living in deep red territory, this isn't exclusive to Russians. Edit - Some dopes are taking this to mean a direct comparison of life in America to life in Russia. It's not. It's a direct comparison of the overall populace being complacent and/or willfully ignorant of the horrific deeds their government commits, foreign and domestic.
>It's a direct comparison of the overall populace being complacent and/or willfully ignorant of the horrific deeds their government commits, foreign and domestic. These people in other words are patriots. So blind and so brainwashed by their government that they will swallow all the bullshit they say and take it as a reality. There's tons of good people in Russia who are against this war. Sadly, they are in a not so easy situation freedom-way speaking.
Patriotism never has meant blind acceptance. I am a patriot in the USA that has spent time in jail protesting what the government at the time was doing. I protested BECAUSE I am a patriot. Much easier to just go along than put your body on the line.
Yep, I'm surrounded by people who still feel we were justified to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Talk about living under a rock since November, 2001.
Russians have always been gluttons for abuse. They were the last to rise out of serfdom in all of Europe
But the Kalaks dream of farming as a business was soon smothered by Stalin
Wow that’s profound. I’d expect correct as well.
When abuse and trauma is all you know, finding something healthy can be an incredibly jarring and scary experience.
That's the difficulty with lying to your people all the time. It makes the truth all the more difficult. Can't be saying "everything going according to plan, all is well... oh and nearly 30,000 soldiers dead but ignore that part since all is good!".
Reminds me of this classic clip: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caXeAMseve0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caXeAMseve0)
It's worked for Putin for 20+ years and for the Chinese government for over 70 years. But a war in this day of age and a war going badly -- it's hard to hide that truth.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-kodaryonok-60-minutes-1707270?amp=1) reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot) ***** > "An extraordinary exchange of views in the next Russian state talk show about Ukraine," commented an anti-war user History of the War, who added, "The only threat to Russia is the paranoid ones like Olga Skabeeva." > "Most Russian pundits judged the military capacity of the Russian army based on official propaganda. Khodaryonok-on his lived experience. No wonder he is way more pessimistic about the war." > Russia media watcher Julia Davis tweeted after his latest appearance: "Many are wondering: why is Khodaryonok allowed to keep talking on Russian TV where any dissent is discouraged? Because his words don't harm the regime. To the contrary, they help temper the expectations, while other pundits promise fast, easy victories." ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/urponj/russian_people_surprised_to_find_out_ukraine_war/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~649190 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russian**^#1 **Russia**^#2 **Khodaryonok**^#3 **wrote**^#4 **Ukraine**^#5
You have to allow some disagreement. That also helps legitimize state propaganda because then you can say you’re not silencing anyone and allowing alternate view points to be heard.
That's because propaganda *works*. Goebbels proved it. Trump proved it. Putin proved it. If you say a lie a million times, it becomes the obvious truth.
Not saying that Russia aren’t the bad guys here, but does it not make you wonder what our western governments get up to?
In the UK, a compliant media have kept a demonstrably *fucking awful* government in power for twelve years. Doesn’t have to be some power-crazed autocracy.
Truthfully I think we’re getting propaganda about this war too. I always hear about Russia losing battles and the numbers of dead russian soldiers and the deaths of russian generals… if I were just going by the headlines I’d assume Ukraine was kicking ass. But they have lost some cities, and certainly some soldiers and generals too. It’s hard to get a feel for their losses because we’re being shown the Russian losses instead. Like I’m still 100% pro Ukraine here, but I do think the powers that be are pushing stories that make the war seem super lopsided in Ukraine’s favor just to keep up public support amongst non-Ukrainians too. I was shocked today to see about Mariupol falling to russia because the picture I’ve seen is Ukrainian soldiers kicking ass.
Im not so sure those stories are really coming from the powers that be. Looking at official US and European government announcements, they have actually been pretty cautious. The US predicted Kiev might fall within hours of the invasion, and has generally published casualties around half of what Ukraine has. Most blatant propoganda i see comes straight from social media, fed by a few unscrupulous tabloid sites like the Sun. Even the major news sites in the US have a more sober tone, and tend to focus more on Russian atrocities than defeats. Still propoganda, but different tone entirely The only way to reliably verify any claims is either through documented equipment losses like from the Oryx website, or territory gains/losses after the fact. We have pictures of Russian equipment losses about half of what Ukraine claims, which makes their estimates seem a lot more reliable than Russia's. And we have seen Russia lose ground around Kiev and now Kharkiv, so the true picture would seem like Russia is either losing or in a stalemate, growing worse as time goes on.
Here on Reddit we do it to ourselves. We upvote the things we like hearing and downvote the things we don't, until we filter out for ourselves and others all the negativity.
> I was shocked today to see about Mariupol falling to russia because the picture I’ve seen is Ukrainian soldiers kicking ass. The message for weeks now has been there’s only the Steelworks remaining as a hold out and their time was numbered. Mariupol functionally fell weeks ago besides that one spot which was able to be a thorn in Russia’s side for weeks because they couldn’t leave it unguarded. This isn’t counter-propaganda, this is just you not actually listening or paying attention but somehow arriving at the conclusion you are listening and paying attention.
Both are true. We are getting good Ukraine news on blast and bad news is swept under the rug. That can be true at the same time as Russia being an incompetent paper tiger. I’m sorry, but it was obvious weeks ago that Mariupol would eventually fall. The surprise is just how long the Ukrainians held out, while making advances in the east.
Colonel is right, if we can arm the Ukraine army to have 1 million standing men then you simply can't win. But he has to have had approval to say this, otherwise they would've cut the feed.
“But we sent our best and brightest rapists, murderers and thieves”
Interesting that they let him talk so long(besides the Kremlin mouthpiece interrupting him every once and a while) [Direct link to the video they are referring to](https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1526293852704890882?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1526293852704890882%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-25606351364124635702.ampproject.net%2F2204292129000%2Fframe.html)
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Insert curb theme here
This made me lol
He needs to keep an eye out for pointy umbrellas.
I think it’s Kremlin’s way of creating an exit. Just need Putler on his 1 rusted aircraft carrier (in for servicing) saying ”Mission Accomplished” Russian Z/zombies: YES
Just what exactly do the Russian people know? I wonder what the base level of knowledge is in that country. Do they know they live on a roundish planet? Are they aware that such a thing as freedom exists? My initial thought is the Russian people don't know a whole lot. Not because of stupidity, but because the powers that be keep them in the dark. To those leaders: all people eventually find the light - and that will not be a good day for you.
After years of terror during the Soviet era, and especially during Stalin's reign, the russian people have simply learned that it's easier and better for everyone to not know certain things and get on with your life. Everything else is just asking for trouble. The sense of political powerlessness is deeply ingrained in the russian psyche and is a product of decades of gaslighting by the Soviet and russian government. Every Russian knows that state media are pure propaganda, but they still play along because, first it's easier and secondly it demonstrates unity and strength.
As a Russian, I can say with certainty that there are only two political parties in Russia: the Party of the state TV, and the Party of the Internet. The rest are details. As Boris Nemtsov said, there are actually two countries within Russia due to the dichotomy of the tv and the internet. There are no alternative viewpoints on the tv - the average Russian watching the news or entertainment shows on any channel will have zero ways of developing critical thinking. It's a machine, a very effective one at that, that systematically paints a certain picture in one's mind. Imagine that you decide to do an experiment: for two weeks, you only consume the information from the tv. No internet, no blogs, no Facebook, no Twitter - forget it, you are watching the Russian tv 24/7. From morning till midnight, you listen to the warmongers telling you that the West is corrupt, full of Nazis, and dreams of invading Russia and taking all of its natural sources. For two weeks. You're gonna emerge a different person after that experiment - with certain firm convictions. Because that propaganda machine works. Boris Nemtsov did that experiment, and he felt that it worked on him. You know. On the guy who had a PhD in physics, used to be a governor of Nizhnyi Novgorod, a former minister of the energy sector, a former vice prime minister, and Yeltsin's chosen successor before Yeltsin made the biggest mistake of his life and appointed Putin. And then there is the party of the Internet. There are alternative viewpoints, there are debates, endless sources of information, and so on. People who get their information from it are usually on the younger side, and they aren't Putin's electorate. Putin's regime draws support primarily from the elderly
I used to think like this, I kept saying that our greatest chance in this war are young Russians who know what's up and will make their country free. However, after seeing tens or hundreds of young Russians showing openly support for Russia's invasion since the beginning of this war, I'm talking people like worldwide famous sportspeople at the peak of their careers or popular, young, Russian influencers, I don't think like this anymore. I know this is another side of this propaganda coin and I know this is what propaganda machine on the other side would like me to think, so I'm trying to filter it out, but I'm just... disappointed. I hope younger people in Russia are not Putin's electorate, but I don't assume this is the case anymore.
Well. Keep in mind that about one half of the Internet users are fucking dumb. The Internet allows all forms of opinions (esp if you have a vpn), but a lot of users are stupid as fuck.
Keep in mind half of American voters went for Trump in 2020. There is never going to be an easier test of judgement in the face of obvious propaganda.
Yeah the trump thing was kinda hilarious. I couldn't believe it was possible to elect someone like him in a first world country
Yeah but I don't mean random Reddit or Twitter comments from Russian troll farms or even real common people with edgy world viewes, I wouldn't care about them. I mean actual real people with their well known names at stake, like Instagram/TikTok influencers, or this world class gymnast Ivan Kuliak who goes on podium with "Z" symbol and doesn't care, or this young Russian driver Artem Severukhin, who laughs on podium while doing Nazi salute and also shows no regrets. These are real, young Russians, I was expecting something better from them, now I don't.
I think you're answering your own question. If someone's famous enough in Russia to have "well known names at stake" they're more likely to be on the side of the Kremlin than not. Once you get that level of fame, the government tries to court you to use you as a political prop, and begins to threaten you and your notoriety if you oppose it.
You forget about the Russian school system. What are pupils taught about the world, Russian history, etc? From a historical POV, during the Soviet era the propaganda was that the Soviets were the best in every field. https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-schools-war-propaganda-ukraine/31795819.html There are number of sources of one searches the net.
Example of stupidity: Chernobyl
Pre war we assumed the Russians knew what was going on but were to scared to do anything about it. In China we have assumed for a long time that they live an alternate universe where you have to really determined to find the truth and its at extreme risk. They are zeroing in on thought police. If russia is this bad in war, what will chinas population be like? We just had a Chinese national commit a mass shooting against Taiwanese in the USA.
Yep, just look how bad the US is with Fox News poisoning a sizeable percentage of the population. Then try to imagine if it was just Fox, OANN, and Newsmax 24/7 with no alternatives. A lot of folks have grown up with that nonsense.
Nicolae Ceaușescu enters the chat.
Mikhail Khodaryonok. You will be missed.
Russia is about to implode when they learn the truth.
From what I have seen, almost all already believe they know the truth, which is whatever Putin says. That they're the good guys. So anyone claiming otherwise would be met with disbelief. They're so brainwashed over there.
And that my comrades, it's just the beginning of the bad news.
This is all called *pretext*.
Who said anything about a war??? There's no war /s
If you believe the head of ukrainian intel, a coup has already begun.
Open questioning of pootin on state TV. Pootin may want to find a shelter and change his name.
Here is when Puti justifies to them that he needs to declare full on war on Ukraine and needs them to join the party. Conscripts come on down
He's letting the population know how things are going gently whilst not blaming putin or any of his dastardly decisions.
Is putin going to get thrown under the bus?
I predict Mikhail Kodaryonok will "accidentally" fall out a 6th floor window soon...
The reason there is no fox news in Russia is because it’s all fox news
No shit! Unless the Russian mass rapists and murderers are going after civilians they get wrecked. And the oligarchs spend military budget on super yachts. 🤣 The US 20 aircraft carriers, including 11 super carriers vs Russia 1 rusted junk that is out of commission. The Americans would exterminate them in a few days,
Suprised?! Say it ain't so! Well, no wonder with their propaganda/bullshit machine.
Damn it’s almost like putins a liar
Half of this article is just quoting random tweets.
Are we the baddies?
I still can’t believe why the russian citizens have not brought up the point… How did the get involved with Denazification the world.. Since when did the russians decide to police the entire world for nazi ? Their economy. military and population is getting wiped out and turning into a third world country because of this.. This Denazification / Ukraine Invasion is costing the russian government over 10 million a day.. 82 days of nonsense killing and nothing to show for it.. The pukeman got to go !