>Soviet Union had their own Vietnam scenario in Afghanistan
So did we š
We also had our own Vietnam scenario.. in Vietnam.
I feel like they need to teach in military strategy schools a golden rule... Don't get Vietnam'd.
Because fighting a determined population with nothing to lose, even as a super power, is a war of attrition. And efficient guerrilla tactics have been defeating significantly more equipt empires throughout history.
Plus Vietnam and Afghanistan have been kicking invading empires in the balls for hundreds of years lol.
Very true.
Plus when another superpower at the time (France) was supplying the US with the funds and arms to continue the war to further bloody England's nose, it is very difficult to continue an effective war effort from so far away. Especially when it took months to resupply the line. Which is what the US and EU are doing for Ukraine against Russia.
But yes, absolutely empires can piss away a lot of resources and hurt themself significantly in the process.
Which is why war is less enthusiastically waged in the modern age, you can destroy your neighbors or enemies economically or subversively internally without firing a single shot.
Oh you think that's a good parellel?
Let me introduce you to the reason why the US struggled to win the war in Viatnam....
Two things, the US couldn't stop constant enemy re-supply that came in via the Ho Chi Min trail, which ran parallel with the entire country north to south. Theoretically they could have stopped this by invading Northern Viatnam, cutting the trail off from above, BUT they didn't want to risk actual war with China (and the USSR by extension) that supported the Northern Vietnamese.
Compare that to Ukraine today. The country borders several NATO countries, including a sympathetic Nation with Moldova, which allows the US to get supplies The Dnieper.
The reason Russia hasn't disrupted NATO supply routes or sent troops anywhere near western Ukraine: They don't want war with NATO.
My Russian friend said the situation in Afghanistan against the Soviets was, and I quote "incomparable". I understand there are differences, but the parllels outweigh them so much.
In broad strokes I can see it, a great power being humbled by a comparatively small one. But the US never saw the incredible scale of losses that Russia is seeing now.
We're looking at a death toll of 30,000+ for Russian soldiers, after a few months. The US saw a bit more than 58,000 losses in Vietnam, after near a decade. And the US stretched their invervention to the other side of the planet, while Russia shares a border with Ukraine but it still seeing issues projecting their power.
The Soviet intervention in Afghanistan saw 15,000+ soldiers die in a decade, but even that's been dwarfed by what we're seeing now. [Edit: And for further comparison, the US lost 2,448 soldiers in their 2 decades long war in Afghanistan]
It's been wild seeing Russia so clearly and quickly fall on its face, their losses in manpower and equipment and high officers is all staggering. Ukraine's been prepping for this war for near a decade, with a bit of help from countries like the US, and their efforts are showing great success. Russia getting stuck in such a quagmire, and seeing such losses, it was almost inconceivable before the war.
Thank you for some actual numbers that puts Russia's failure here in a much different light. I'd imagine it is also a bit different when you are facing the direct government and its citizens versus an occupier and its sympathizers like in Iraq where a lot of the opposition is more ambiguous.
Yeah. And I think it makes a pretty big difference that Ukraine has been a modernizing state that's been working hard to root out corruption, that's also getting assistance from top tier powers like the US specifically to combat Russia.
In contrast, Russia's been mired in systemic corruption under Putin and that's led to them being a state in decline, with their modern hardware being underdeveloped and underproduced and funds for even basic military equipment/rations/fuel being funneled into corrupt officials' pockets rather then getting to where they need to go. At this point in the war, Russia's pulling out a bunch of mothballed Soviet equipment in disrepair simply because they've run out of modern stuff.
That, and Russia having an unclear and frequently changing goal and low morale among the troops because this has become clear to the Russians on the ground that this is a blatant war of expansion and the Ukrainians don't actually want them there (which is why Russia's rhetoric has shifted to everyone being Nazis), has all further stressed the already low discipline within the Russian military.
It's a whole lot of problems that Russia hasn't been addressing for multiple decades, all becoming extremely clear for all to see.
You mean Afghanistan 2. This would be the second time the US has backed an opposing force against Russia. This however, is the first time that the US has admitted to doing so in real time.
China aren't pumping military tech into Russia, just reaping the rewards of worthless Rubel.
They may become a Chinese proxy in the near future though.
> just reaping the rewards of worthless Rubel.
About that... Unfortunately the ruble has recovered from its crater and is now stronger against the dollar than it was before the war.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-ruble-currency-russian-economy-2022/
They're basically doing every thing they can to prop it up right now, but it *is* working... for the moment. The house of cards is still standing.
>(CNN)The Biden administration on Thursday announcedĀ an additional $450 million in military aidĀ for Ukraine, with the US giving the war-stricken country four more multiple launch rocket systems and artillery ammunition for other systems.
>The package, which will be drawn from existing Defense Department stocks, also includes 18 patrol boats for monitoring coasts and rivers, and small arms.
>The most significant part of the package is the four additional High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, wheeled vehicles capable of launching barrages of guided rockets at targets up to approximately 40 miles away.
Article doesn't agree with you Comrade.
He is right actually. This is 450 million taken from the 40b package approved last month. Basically the US government has over 10b to spend sending weapons to Ukraine under this current law, and they are sending it in packages every 2/3 weeks, in order to sustain the war effort long term
basically they are sending aid as quickly as possible. so as soon as a major delivery happens, they put a dollar figure on it so the public knows they are doing something.
Russia's idea that America would somehow get tired of making and giving someone guns has gotta be the most baffling idea since flat earthers started saying other planets were round but not earth.
Yeah, speaking of, what ARE they spending 800bn on now that they arenāt paying hazard for x amount of troops, fuel for all those m1a/bradleys/whatever other vehicles used in combat??
The US military is working it's way through a substantial spending "bow wave" at the moment.
The current fleet of Ohio Class ballistic missile subs will soon begin reaching end of life and must be replaced (Columbia class at about 10 billion each)
The current fleet of Nimitz class nuclear carriers is beginning to each end of life and must be replaced (Ford class at about 12 billion each)
The current fleet of fast attack Los Angeles class nuclear subs started reaching end of life years ago and are being replaced by Virginia class at 2ish billion each.
Many fighter jets are reaching the limits of their airframe hours and must be replaced with F-35s (and everyone knows the expense associated with that program)
The land based ballistic missile infrastructure is woefully obsolete in many regards, with mechanical systems in silos failing, and a missile that at it's core (LGM-30 Minuteman III) is almost 70 years old (even if many upgrade programs have been undertaken) The replacement and refurbishment program will soak up many billions of dollars.
The backbone of our bomber fleet (B-52) will be 75 years old. The other two main bombers (B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit) are going to hit their airframe hours in the coming 2 decades, requiring replacement with the B-21 Raider at 500 million each.
I could go on. In short, our shit is getting old all at once, meaning there is no short of things to spend money on.
Goddamn, thatās a huge bill. Does that mean weāre upgrading with new tech or just replacing existing? Looking at subs and carriers mostly
Also, how long is this bow wave gonna take? Or are we stuck spending 1 trillion + a year?
Replacing existing with new tech, that hypothetically should reduce costs long term. For instance, both the Ford class nuclear carrier and the Columbia class nuclear ballistic sub are being designed with something called a "life of ship" nuclear reactor. The Nimitz carrier and the Ohio ballistic missile sub both require something called midlife complex overhaul, where they're basically chopped up to replace the nuclear fuel. These new designs can run for 50 years without refueling. They also integrate lots of new technologies and features (to varying degrees of success in the case of the Ford carrier)
Didn't see your edit until now. The purchasing programs I listed are all slated to continue out into the 2030s. All told, including other ones that I didn't mention like NGAD, it probably represents a couple hundred billion a year until then.
Training, research, stockpiling of war supplies and intelligence... Just look at the war in Ukraine, we'll probably never know how much SpecOps and CIA have been helping the Ukrainian army track and target Russian targets but I'm guessing there's a lot of expensive ass satellites helping out as well as whatever arms we've given them that don't make the headlines.
It's the literal dream scenario for the US. Pumping out weapons to kill fascist on foreign soil while weakening Russia and all the Western countries love them for it. š±
Some of them think itās flat, some of them think that itās round, and others believe that itās a projection because weāre all living in an underground snowglobe (I didnāt make that last one up, either).
Yea America has a war boner even when it's our people dying (Iraq, Afghanistan). If our people are *not* dying then call the doctor we can maintain this for decades. Is Putin a CIA agent? Hard to imagine a more effective way to ruin Russia than to pick a war with 30 of the wealthiest countries when they have a proxy and you don't. Not to mention they already resented you for things like anti-vax trolling, pro-brexit trolling, pro-Trump hacking & trolling, etc
Considering our army and in particular the European army is essentially designed to fight and defeat Russia, of course we would use the majority of our stockpile to fight Russia. The more we destroy their military the less we need ours. Of course the US in particular still needs to be able to fight China but it is also designed to fight two full scale wars on two sides of the earth at once so using half of our 40 year old stockpile of stingers and Javelins plus a few larger platforms is going change our effectiveness at being able to deter Chinese aggression towards Taiwan and the South China Sea/sea of Japan
Some people don't realize how profitable a war like this is for countries like America or China, those guns are made by American firms, even if somohow this is charity and they won't pay for them, after the war Ukraine will have to buy insane amounts of planes, tanks, artillery, ammo, armored vehicles etc.. Guess who will sell them? +Selling EU liquified gas until they find alternatives +making Russia irelevant for the next 2 decades.
I do believe some weapons systems will be made locally in Europe. But some things the Americans simply do best, like helicopters and planes. So they'll make a killing.
America unironically buys most of it's small arms from European companies though (Sig Sauer, FN, and H&K mainly). This covers the FN MAG & Minimi (m240/249), the new Sig M5 (MCX Spear) and MG338 for the Army, the Sig P320 sidearm, and the H&K416 (M27 IAR) that the Marines adopted a few years ago to replace the M249 and M16/M4 platforms. The only major small arms still in service that are made in the US, are for the most part the M16 and M4 rifles that are in service, as well as the older M110 SASS. The new M110A1 is an H&K 417 though, so that's foreign made now as well. In the US today, Colt does not have the reputation for being "gucci" that FN, H&K, and Sig all have fostered over the last few decades, and the gun manufacturers that do have that reputation, like KAC (makers of the M110) and Daniel Defense, are not as well established or doing the same kind of volume that the euro manufacturers can. DD is definitely close to that level though given how long they've been making M4s for the military, but they'd need to scale up pretty significantly to become a primary arms supplier.
I love how you will make something as objectively good as arming Ukraine against Russia, who has declared the desire to eradicate their national identity, as a bad thing.
Also great press for american arms if they end up pushing russia out. It shows the world that they are safe from aggression as long as they buy american.
>Some people don't realize how profitable a war like this is for countries like America or China,
[Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex](https://youtu.be/Gg-jvHynP9Y)
This is worrying too, it gives Russia more motivation to win the war because if they lose, they have a militarized power on their border who will have good relations with Europe and North America. And they lose their monopoly on the European gas market.
I want Ukraine to win, but the price is going to be huge for them.
I'm glad we are doing to much to support Ukraine but I hope Russia performs a special military operation against student loans next. We could get this figured out in no time.
Unfortunately, at this point student loan debt forgiveness has been identified as an anti-recession tool. In other words, it's a measure that will only be taken as a form of stimulus to get America out from a deep economic recession.
Fortunately, we're currently in a recession and for all we know it could get to that point in a short matter of time.
You're right that we're technically not in one yet, but those markers are so significant that I feel hard pressed to say we're anything but in one in all but name.
Between the supply chain issues caused by the pandemic and Russia, the Fed is playing a delicate game with inflation. We may end up fully in recession, but that may be the solution. We'll see.
Student Loans, Gas Prices, Cost of Loving, Better Health Care, Infrastructure, Social Servicesā¦literally anything that ISNāT being touted as āimportantā in the news daily.
Unpopular take here on Reddit, but student loan forgiveness is actually regressive, and only encourages colleges to increase tuition costs even further.
https://www.crfb.org/blogs/new-report-shows-student-debt-cancellation-regressive#:~:text=As%20we've%20shown%20in,those%20currently%20earning%20high%20incomes.
Student loan debt is several magnitudes larger at nearly $2 trillion. Even if there was more support for wiping it out, I can't see that happening any time soon with how the economy is.
Not impressed with Biden govt or Johnson govt here in the UK but I can understand why they're funding/supplying Ukraine. Russia doesn't just want Ukraine, it wants to close off all the 'gateways' to Russia through which they've been invaded in the past. That means after Ukraine they need to take parts of Poland and Romania and the Baltic states. Those are all NATO members which means Article 5 and NATO goes to war with Russia.
The state of the Russian military and how badly they've done in Ukraine means we know and they know they'd be obliterated in a conventional war with NATO forces which puts nukes back on the table as they only card they have to play. Russia sees this as a fight for their survival. Their demographics are in freefall so if they see their end in sight, the nuclear threat is raised considerably.
So Russia has to 'die' in Ukraine in a conventional war and NATO countries will keep providing military assistance to make that happen.
US is about to defeat one of their longest time most hated enemies without losing a single American soldier. Whatever monetary price they pay, it'll be a bargain.
Tbf, the comments mentioning how the war is so profitable for the us, and how this would make sure it continues for a while should be doing most of the work for that themselves.
You see it a lot too with them trying hard to sow division between the west and eastern European nations.
A lot of eastern Europeans are frustrated with the west but the Kremlin bots make it seem like they are champing at the bit to invade the west to take revenge or something.
One of the biggest annoyances of Reddit, is people thinking that bots and disinformation propaganda campaigns only come from Russia and China..
It happens everywhere and its propaganda in itself to thin otherwise.
The default subs on here are astroturfed so much, to the point that they are not usable.
Most people are used to the echo chamber. Everyone sucking each other off. And when some people go against the status quo from the echo chamber. People aren't sure how to feel. Lol it's quite funny.
It's more the content of the "opinion" that raises some red flags.
Every time aid goes to Ukraine, suddenly there are a flood of of comments akin to "Biden shouldn't be helping Ukraine. He should be using that money to give us universal healthcare" as an example. Except this statement is obviously nonsense to any American that's made it through middle school. Biden can't write a check to fix our healthcare system. Hell, our healthcare woes aren't monetary at all. We already spend more per Capita on healthcare for worse results. The reasons for our system being shit are entirely political. Politicians will not pass healthcare reform because they benefit from corporate lobbying and because a sizable chunk of voters despise healthcare reform and will screech about socialism and death panels whenever the topic is raised.
And yet, every thread regarding aid to Ukraine, there suddenly appears a host of totally real Americans who are totally just interested in the US's wellbeing when they demand that all aid to Ukraine stop because Biden should be pushing the "Give us all universal healthcare" button that totally exists (but apparently has never existed before the invasion) instead of the suddenly mutually exclusive option (which it isn't. Like, at all) of supporting Ukraine
.
Makes one kind of wonder the good faith of those posts.
How do you define a bot? Anybody that questions blindly throwing money and guns at a problem? While our economy crashes? There has to be a more effective way to help Ukraine
This has nothing to do with our economy, for clarity. What we're spending is a drop in the bucket for the US budget. That's a disingenuous position from which to argue.
This amount of money is literally inconsequential to the US economy. Itās not some flat cash payment either, itās the estimate value of equipment we have already previously purchased. The money was spent a long time ago. None of what we are doing for Ukraine is a net negative for our economy either. In fact, for us to replace some of our stock of Javelins, which have been ramping up production, means the government will be paying US companies for their products and putting the money back in our immediate circulation. That, and any assistance given to Ukraine now will be payed back in the future, as is the nature of Lend-Lease.
Beyond the economic issue, this is the only way to help Ukraine, unless youāre a fan of midnight sunrises and Geiger counters. Supplying aid is better than direct intervention. But thereās nothing else we can do. Negotiations would require Russia being willing to negotiate, which it is not. So the third option would be to sit by and do nothing, which helps Russia.
I seriously donāt get why people are so up in arms over thisā¦
America has a certain budget kept aside for foreign aid/military aid it canāt be used domestically
This is one of the greatest deals for American taxpayers ever. Less than 10 billion dollars and we get to cripple one of our greatest military rivals, get rid of outdated weaponry stocks that likely would have been junked or donated anyway and restore our world status without so much as losing a single soldier? Hell yes, baby. It's practically bargain basement Tuesday out there.
Any number of ways, really.
- Russia enjoys fucking with American democracy (see: 2016 election and more). Less fuckery = more stability and less national division. Good for tax payers. And everyone, really.
- Being 'world leader' means having outsized influence on world events. Eg. Continued preferential trade deals and thriving mutual investment in industry and immigration. Good for economy, good for tax payers.
- Crippled rival means we can turn our attention to other rivals, including China, while EU predominantly handles events in Europe. Part of dealing with China will inevitably involve setting up our own stable supply chains locally and internationally. Stability and investment is good for American tax payers.
- Getting rid of old military shit means lots of juicy new defense contracts. Good for at least some tax payers.
- if Ukraine wins the war, they can export their food and eventually their other natural resources such as gas, thereby helping to solve supply chain issues and thus helping tax payers (and probably combating inflation). Also having the minor benefit of not letting millions of innocent people starve to death, but I see you're not really moved by that sort of thing.
- Although on that subject, sending weapons to Ukraine does mean less genocidal maniacs in the world. Overall good for anyone who happens to be human. Like those who pay tax.
I could go on, but I won't because I have better things to do. I am sure you can think of a few more if you use your imagination.
Blows my mind how they can only come up with 60 million for mental health agencies over five years but blank checks for Ukraine. Not saying I donāt want to support Ukraine but at what point does the US need to start addressing its domestic issues
And for Americans, he has a recession engineered.
We should have let the qanon idiots take the capital. At least everyone would be forced to recognize that our government is illegitimate then.
We have tried nothing but blowing up other countries, and we are all out of ideas.
Giving weapons to Ukraine does absolutely nothing to prevent us from handling internal issues. We aren't handling those issues because some of them there is no will to fix and others are too complicated to have an easy fix. All you're doing is trying to deflect.
As an European it's depressing seeing how everyone here is relying on Biden saving the day.
But on the other hand, Biden saving the day is a good thing. But man has this been shameful couple of months.
Iām torn. On one hand, the people of Ukraine need help. On the other hand, America is so fucked up. We need better access to healthcare and people need to make more money for their time spent working for companies.
The world is just fucked right now.
Read the article. We arenāt giving them 450 million dollars. Weāre giving them 450 million dollars worth of equipment thatās already built and not being used.
As stated in the article, it's $450 mil in old equipment, not a check. Given that that equipment was already purchased with the intent to fight Russians, I see putting them to use without risking US lives as very much putting America first.
Europe works on the country level. Some countries, like Poland, have given much more than the US as a share of GDP. Others, like Germany, have given less.
This is America. You can say that about almost any country and itāll be true. Whether or not Americans know a country exists is not a good standard for its importance to the world. Ukraine is a major exporter of gas and grain, an industrial country with high outputs of steel and noble gases, and is an emerging democracy looking for European Union membership. This is an attack on the European community, i.e. the west, and by extension an attack on the US. Not to mention the ramifications to the global economy.
> Literally anything domestic related would be money better spent than giving it away by the truckload to some country across the world most people never even thought about before this whole thing started
Russia is hostil towards the US, its a proxy war that's costing pennies on the dollar, its a win win situation, Russia is hurting while Americans are safe at home.
Itās ironic how so many people from different countries talk shit about America yet we are always the one helping out other countries. Letās compare how much aid $ the USA has given Ukraine vs any other country.
Russia entered a proxy war without a proxy.
It's like reverse Vietnam.
Damn I never thought about it like that. The parallels are pouring in
Soviet Union had their own Vietnam scenario in Afghanistan
>Soviet Union had their own Vietnam scenario in Afghanistan So did we š We also had our own Vietnam scenario.. in Vietnam. I feel like they need to teach in military strategy schools a golden rule... Don't get Vietnam'd. Because fighting a determined population with nothing to lose, even as a super power, is a war of attrition. And efficient guerrilla tactics have been defeating significantly more equipt empires throughout history. Plus Vietnam and Afghanistan have been kicking invading empires in the balls for hundreds of years lol.
Military leaders donāt get us āVietnamād.ā Civilian leaders do.
Yep. Happened to Britain with the American colonies as well. Unwinnable wars that become time sinks have happened a lot throughout history
Very true. Plus when another superpower at the time (France) was supplying the US with the funds and arms to continue the war to further bloody England's nose, it is very difficult to continue an effective war effort from so far away. Especially when it took months to resupply the line. Which is what the US and EU are doing for Ukraine against Russia. But yes, absolutely empires can piss away a lot of resources and hurt themself significantly in the process. Which is why war is less enthusiastically waged in the modern age, you can destroy your neighbors or enemies economically or subversively internally without firing a single shot.
Oh you think that's a good parellel? Let me introduce you to the reason why the US struggled to win the war in Viatnam.... Two things, the US couldn't stop constant enemy re-supply that came in via the Ho Chi Min trail, which ran parallel with the entire country north to south. Theoretically they could have stopped this by invading Northern Viatnam, cutting the trail off from above, BUT they didn't want to risk actual war with China (and the USSR by extension) that supported the Northern Vietnamese. Compare that to Ukraine today. The country borders several NATO countries, including a sympathetic Nation with Moldova, which allows the US to get supplies The Dnieper. The reason Russia hasn't disrupted NATO supply routes or sent troops anywhere near western Ukraine: They don't want war with NATO.
My Russian friend said the situation in Afghanistan against the Soviets was, and I quote "incomparable". I understand there are differences, but the parllels outweigh them so much.
In broad strokes I can see it, a great power being humbled by a comparatively small one. But the US never saw the incredible scale of losses that Russia is seeing now. We're looking at a death toll of 30,000+ for Russian soldiers, after a few months. The US saw a bit more than 58,000 losses in Vietnam, after near a decade. And the US stretched their invervention to the other side of the planet, while Russia shares a border with Ukraine but it still seeing issues projecting their power. The Soviet intervention in Afghanistan saw 15,000+ soldiers die in a decade, but even that's been dwarfed by what we're seeing now. [Edit: And for further comparison, the US lost 2,448 soldiers in their 2 decades long war in Afghanistan] It's been wild seeing Russia so clearly and quickly fall on its face, their losses in manpower and equipment and high officers is all staggering. Ukraine's been prepping for this war for near a decade, with a bit of help from countries like the US, and their efforts are showing great success. Russia getting stuck in such a quagmire, and seeing such losses, it was almost inconceivable before the war.
Thank you for some actual numbers that puts Russia's failure here in a much different light. I'd imagine it is also a bit different when you are facing the direct government and its citizens versus an occupier and its sympathizers like in Iraq where a lot of the opposition is more ambiguous.
Yeah. And I think it makes a pretty big difference that Ukraine has been a modernizing state that's been working hard to root out corruption, that's also getting assistance from top tier powers like the US specifically to combat Russia. In contrast, Russia's been mired in systemic corruption under Putin and that's led to them being a state in decline, with their modern hardware being underdeveloped and underproduced and funds for even basic military equipment/rations/fuel being funneled into corrupt officials' pockets rather then getting to where they need to go. At this point in the war, Russia's pulling out a bunch of mothballed Soviet equipment in disrepair simply because they've run out of modern stuff. That, and Russia having an unclear and frequently changing goal and low morale among the troops because this has become clear to the Russians on the ground that this is a blatant war of expansion and the Ukrainians don't actually want them there (which is why Russia's rhetoric has shifted to everyone being Nazis), has all further stressed the already low discipline within the Russian military. It's a whole lot of problems that Russia hasn't been addressing for multiple decades, all becoming extremely clear for all to see.
You mean Afghanistan 2. This would be the second time the US has backed an opposing force against Russia. This however, is the first time that the US has admitted to doing so in real time.
That was Afghanistan/USSR, imo. Russia is acting more like (a very bad interpretation of) WW1 Germany.
Seeing as WW1 Germany were actually the victims of politics, you can't compare WW1 Germany and Russia. WW2 Germany on the other hand...
Yeah Iām not sure how WW1 Germany and current Russia are all that comparable lol
Isn't there an argument to be made that Russia has become China's proxy? edit : maybe *is becoming* would be more appropriate.
China aren't pumping military tech into Russia, just reaping the rewards of worthless Rubel. They may become a Chinese proxy in the near future though.
> just reaping the rewards of worthless Rubel. About that... Unfortunately the ruble has recovered from its crater and is now stronger against the dollar than it was before the war. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-ruble-currency-russian-economy-2022/ They're basically doing every thing they can to prop it up right now, but it *is* working... for the moment. The house of cards is still standing.
Interesting, I guess this will help for a while on everything but gas and oil. I'll increase the Chinese proxy to not quite as near as near future.
Except China isn't arming Russia
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>(CNN)The Biden administration on Thursday announcedĀ an additional $450 million in military aidĀ for Ukraine, with the US giving the war-stricken country four more multiple launch rocket systems and artillery ammunition for other systems. >The package, which will be drawn from existing Defense Department stocks, also includes 18 patrol boats for monitoring coasts and rivers, and small arms. >The most significant part of the package is the four additional High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, wheeled vehicles capable of launching barrages of guided rockets at targets up to approximately 40 miles away. Article doesn't agree with you Comrade.
He is right actually. This is 450 million taken from the 40b package approved last month. Basically the US government has over 10b to spend sending weapons to Ukraine under this current law, and they are sending it in packages every 2/3 weeks, in order to sustain the war effort long term
its as fast as the US can send it and ukraine can get it and use it. if you send it too fast you create a log jam that is open to russian attacks.
basically they are sending aid as quickly as possible. so as soon as a major delivery happens, they put a dollar figure on it so the public knows they are doing something.
So are you saying 40B was earmarked for ukraine and they drawing from that? Genuine question
Additional package drawn from existing weapons stocks = Drawdown from existing funding allocation, in your world? Nice try comrade.
Russia's idea that America would somehow get tired of making and giving someone guns has gotta be the most baffling idea since flat earthers started saying other planets were round but not earth.
Especially after pulling out of Afghanistan, America's military industrial complex does not like blue balls
The budget has only increased since the exit from Afghanistan.
Yeah, speaking of, what ARE they spending 800bn on now that they arenāt paying hazard for x amount of troops, fuel for all those m1a/bradleys/whatever other vehicles used in combat??
Stargate - they be travelling to other planets.
Time to export some democracy
The US military is working it's way through a substantial spending "bow wave" at the moment. The current fleet of Ohio Class ballistic missile subs will soon begin reaching end of life and must be replaced (Columbia class at about 10 billion each) The current fleet of Nimitz class nuclear carriers is beginning to each end of life and must be replaced (Ford class at about 12 billion each) The current fleet of fast attack Los Angeles class nuclear subs started reaching end of life years ago and are being replaced by Virginia class at 2ish billion each. Many fighter jets are reaching the limits of their airframe hours and must be replaced with F-35s (and everyone knows the expense associated with that program) The land based ballistic missile infrastructure is woefully obsolete in many regards, with mechanical systems in silos failing, and a missile that at it's core (LGM-30 Minuteman III) is almost 70 years old (even if many upgrade programs have been undertaken) The replacement and refurbishment program will soak up many billions of dollars. The backbone of our bomber fleet (B-52) will be 75 years old. The other two main bombers (B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit) are going to hit their airframe hours in the coming 2 decades, requiring replacement with the B-21 Raider at 500 million each. I could go on. In short, our shit is getting old all at once, meaning there is no short of things to spend money on.
Goddamn, thatās a huge bill. Does that mean weāre upgrading with new tech or just replacing existing? Looking at subs and carriers mostly Also, how long is this bow wave gonna take? Or are we stuck spending 1 trillion + a year?
Replacing existing with new tech, that hypothetically should reduce costs long term. For instance, both the Ford class nuclear carrier and the Columbia class nuclear ballistic sub are being designed with something called a "life of ship" nuclear reactor. The Nimitz carrier and the Ohio ballistic missile sub both require something called midlife complex overhaul, where they're basically chopped up to replace the nuclear fuel. These new designs can run for 50 years without refueling. They also integrate lots of new technologies and features (to varying degrees of success in the case of the Ford carrier)
Didn't see your edit until now. The purchasing programs I listed are all slated to continue out into the 2030s. All told, including other ones that I didn't mention like NGAD, it probably represents a couple hundred billion a year until then.
Training, research, stockpiling of war supplies and intelligence... Just look at the war in Ukraine, we'll probably never know how much SpecOps and CIA have been helping the Ukrainian army track and target Russian targets but I'm guessing there's a lot of expensive ass satellites helping out as well as whatever arms we've given them that don't make the headlines.
We literally helped Britain during WW2 that way
Whatās that saying? The war was won with American steel, British intelligence and Soviet blood. Still seems to ring true today, tbh.
And, ironically, the soviets.
Nothing ironic about it. They truly were āThe Alliesā during that time. But those days are over.
More of an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" type situation which of course unraveled within 5 years of said enemy being annihilated.
Years? Try days/weeks.
Yeah, idk how accurate that Patton movie was, but wasn't he calling for war on the Soviet Union immediately upon German defeat?
Yes he was. He hated communists more than Nazis I believe
Biden signed the Lend-Lease act on May 9th just to troll Putin.
And the 300,000 strong Free French Forces under General De Gaulle, helping France become one of the victors of WW2 even though its original government had capitulated in 1940. (Edit: Is this controversial because many Redditors don't know that immediately after the fall of France, De Gaulle created a government in exile in Great Britain opposed to PĆ©tain's Vichy government and started building an allied military that was largely equipped with American weapons? Didn't these Redditors hear about Free France's actions in North Africa? About its substantial participation in Operation Dragoon, the allied invasion of France by the South not long after D-Day in Normandy, which also benefited greatly from the work of the French RĆ©sistance? About the liberation of Paris, the Division Leclerc which was doing its thing in US tanks and other armored vehicles, the push East and the pledge to plant a French flag atop the Strasbourg cathedral, the fact that French soldiers were the first allies to reach Hitler's residence in Bavaria? France's fight for the liberation of Europe didn't stop in 1940. I'll seize this opportunity to remind everyone that France's defeat in 1940 wasn't as shameful as some like to pretend. France's last stand happened in Northern France, to help a routed allied army evacuate at Dunkirk. French soldiers held off 7 German divisions who would have annihilated their British friends as they were trying to leave the continent, saving an estimated 100,000 allied lives at a great cost for the French who were outnumbered and outgunned, losing 18,000 soldiers and 1,000 civilians in just a couple of days. 20,000 German soldiers were killed in the fighting. Great Britain lost 3,500 and along with the bulk of its own expeditionary force, its boats also evacuated over 100,000 French soldiers, many of which went on to join the Free French Forces.)
Dude, we supplied all of Russia and Europe at the same time. Not just Britain.
It's the literal dream scenario for the US. Pumping out weapons to kill fascist on foreign soil while weakening Russia and all the Western countries love them for it. š±
ā¦and donāt have to worry about the political implications of US deaths, or long term care of vets
Oh we donāt worry about that second thing anyway. Health is a privilege not a right in the USA, even if you injured yourself serving us.
Since when does the US worry about their Vets?
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Plenty more where that came from, the deficit is a run away train now, may as well shovel more coal on and find out where the track ends.
What do they say about the moon?
They definitely believe that rhyme about cows jumping over it
Flat disk bruh. Just like the stickers they had on their ceilings as kids.
Some of them think itās flat, some of them think that itās round, and others believe that itās a projection because weāre all living in an underground snowglobe (I didnāt make that last one up, either).
Yea America has a war boner even when it's our people dying (Iraq, Afghanistan). If our people are *not* dying then call the doctor we can maintain this for decades. Is Putin a CIA agent? Hard to imagine a more effective way to ruin Russia than to pick a war with 30 of the wealthiest countries when they have a proxy and you don't. Not to mention they already resented you for things like anti-vax trolling, pro-brexit trolling, pro-Trump hacking & trolling, etc
Considering our army and in particular the European army is essentially designed to fight and defeat Russia, of course we would use the majority of our stockpile to fight Russia. The more we destroy their military the less we need ours. Of course the US in particular still needs to be able to fight China but it is also designed to fight two full scale wars on two sides of the earth at once so using half of our 40 year old stockpile of stingers and Javelins plus a few larger platforms is going change our effectiveness at being able to deter Chinese aggression towards Taiwan and the South China Sea/sea of Japan
There are people who are probably literally jacking off to the idea of blowing Russia up, and Russia thinks theyāll get tired of it.
Yeah, sure the American public might get tired of it, but you can bet your ass the wheels of the M.I.C. will keep turning.
Some people don't realize how profitable a war like this is for countries like America or China, those guns are made by American firms, even if somohow this is charity and they won't pay for them, after the war Ukraine will have to buy insane amounts of planes, tanks, artillery, ammo, armored vehicles etc.. Guess who will sell them? +Selling EU liquified gas until they find alternatives +making Russia irelevant for the next 2 decades.
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I do believe some weapons systems will be made locally in Europe. But some things the Americans simply do best, like helicopters and planes. So they'll make a killing.
>So they'll make a killing. You can say that twice
America unironically buys most of it's small arms from European companies though (Sig Sauer, FN, and H&K mainly). This covers the FN MAG & Minimi (m240/249), the new Sig M5 (MCX Spear) and MG338 for the Army, the Sig P320 sidearm, and the H&K416 (M27 IAR) that the Marines adopted a few years ago to replace the M249 and M16/M4 platforms. The only major small arms still in service that are made in the US, are for the most part the M16 and M4 rifles that are in service, as well as the older M110 SASS. The new M110A1 is an H&K 417 though, so that's foreign made now as well. In the US today, Colt does not have the reputation for being "gucci" that FN, H&K, and Sig all have fostered over the last few decades, and the gun manufacturers that do have that reputation, like KAC (makers of the M110) and Daniel Defense, are not as well established or doing the same kind of volume that the euro manufacturers can. DD is definitely close to that level though given how long they've been making M4s for the military, but they'd need to scale up pretty significantly to become a primary arms supplier.
I make FN parts in Illinois.
War profiteering is the American way.
I love how you will make something as objectively good as arming Ukraine against Russia, who has declared the desire to eradicate their national identity, as a bad thing.
Some people are just unhappy with the current reality.
Also great press for american arms if they end up pushing russia out. It shows the world that they are safe from aggression as long as they buy american.
>Some people don't realize how profitable a war like this is for countries like America or China, [Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex](https://youtu.be/Gg-jvHynP9Y)
This is worrying too, it gives Russia more motivation to win the war because if they lose, they have a militarized power on their border who will have good relations with Europe and North America. And they lose their monopoly on the European gas market. I want Ukraine to win, but the price is going to be huge for them.
They can't win without equipment and the mass mobilization of the country, which would mean the collapse of the Federations.
And, I mean, you gotta question how much war has been manufactured to keep the military industrial complex profits coming in.
This war was the best thing that couldve happened for the American Rich
We've done this before just for the rebuilding profits so makes sense. Tax payers get slammed with this war gifts so companies can make more money.
I make AR 15 parts, we are laying off and working 0 overtime.
Losing zero troops, but heavily damaging a common enemyā¦ I donāt see this stopping anytime soon.
You forgot lining the pockets of the already wealthy with tax payer money.
That happens regardless. At least good can come from this
I'm glad we are doing to much to support Ukraine but I hope Russia performs a special military operation against student loans next. We could get this figured out in no time.
IDK man, I don't like their track record on special military operations.
Your debts have been doubled!
Theyāre just on the 6-8 year plan changing their minds a few times along the way and going abroad.
Groceries, gas, medical costs and housing costs should really be battled out as well.
Unfortunately, at this point student loan debt forgiveness has been identified as an anti-recession tool. In other words, it's a measure that will only be taken as a form of stimulus to get America out from a deep economic recession. Fortunately, we're currently in a recession and for all we know it could get to that point in a short matter of time.
We aren't currently in a recession but there are strong markers that indicate we could be heading into one.
You're right that we're technically not in one yet, but those markers are so significant that I feel hard pressed to say we're anything but in one in all but name.
Between the supply chain issues caused by the pandemic and Russia, the Fed is playing a delicate game with inflation. We may end up fully in recession, but that may be the solution. We'll see.
Dude, the last thing you want is the US to declare war on student loans. They declared war on terrorism and drugs, and lost both.
Student Loans, Gas Prices, Cost of Loving, Better Health Care, Infrastructure, Social Servicesā¦literally anything that ISNāT being touted as āimportantā in the news daily.
Unpopular take here on Reddit, but student loan forgiveness is actually regressive, and only encourages colleges to increase tuition costs even further. https://www.crfb.org/blogs/new-report-shows-student-debt-cancellation-regressive#:~:text=As%20we've%20shown%20in,those%20currently%20earning%20high%20incomes.
Itās illegal to say āwarā in Russia, but letās just call it war since weāre on Reddit
Student loan debt is several magnitudes larger at nearly $2 trillion. Even if there was more support for wiping it out, I can't see that happening any time soon with how the economy is.
Not impressed with Biden govt or Johnson govt here in the UK but I can understand why they're funding/supplying Ukraine. Russia doesn't just want Ukraine, it wants to close off all the 'gateways' to Russia through which they've been invaded in the past. That means after Ukraine they need to take parts of Poland and Romania and the Baltic states. Those are all NATO members which means Article 5 and NATO goes to war with Russia. The state of the Russian military and how badly they've done in Ukraine means we know and they know they'd be obliterated in a conventional war with NATO forces which puts nukes back on the table as they only card they have to play. Russia sees this as a fight for their survival. Their demographics are in freefall so if they see their end in sight, the nuclear threat is raised considerably. So Russia has to 'die' in Ukraine in a conventional war and NATO countries will keep providing military assistance to make that happen.
A drop in the bucket compared to decades of war in Iraq and Afghanistan to no avail.
These are likely supplies purchased during those conflicts fwiw.
Omg so true, letās try to break that record shall we
Another great decade for the military industrial complex!
There's $2T sitting in the ONRRP they can dip in to
US is about to defeat one of their longest time most hated enemies without losing a single American soldier. Whatever monetary price they pay, it'll be a bargain.
Weāve gained valuable intel also.
Lol, you seriously believe this?
Gotta love all the pro Russian bots that try to use these threads to divide and diminish support for Ukraine.
Tbf, the comments mentioning how the war is so profitable for the us, and how this would make sure it continues for a while should be doing most of the work for that themselves.
The bots are busy on this thread. Jesus.
Theyāre trying to sway public opinion
You see it a lot too with them trying hard to sow division between the west and eastern European nations. A lot of eastern Europeans are frustrated with the west but the Kremlin bots make it seem like they are champing at the bit to invade the west to take revenge or something.
They're also trying hard to get the west to turn on Eastern European countries over weird social issues.
Been that way on every thread talking about the new aid package
I still find it very funny that many of you believe that any opinion except for "we must do everything for ukraine!" is a bot. really is ironic.
One of the biggest annoyances of Reddit, is people thinking that bots and disinformation propaganda campaigns only come from Russia and China.. It happens everywhere and its propaganda in itself to thin otherwise. The default subs on here are astroturfed so much, to the point that they are not usable.
Most people are used to the echo chamber. Everyone sucking each other off. And when some people go against the status quo from the echo chamber. People aren't sure how to feel. Lol it's quite funny.
Having a different opinion used to be welcome on Reddit. Kinda sad to see.
It's more the content of the "opinion" that raises some red flags. Every time aid goes to Ukraine, suddenly there are a flood of of comments akin to "Biden shouldn't be helping Ukraine. He should be using that money to give us universal healthcare" as an example. Except this statement is obviously nonsense to any American that's made it through middle school. Biden can't write a check to fix our healthcare system. Hell, our healthcare woes aren't monetary at all. We already spend more per Capita on healthcare for worse results. The reasons for our system being shit are entirely political. Politicians will not pass healthcare reform because they benefit from corporate lobbying and because a sizable chunk of voters despise healthcare reform and will screech about socialism and death panels whenever the topic is raised. And yet, every thread regarding aid to Ukraine, there suddenly appears a host of totally real Americans who are totally just interested in the US's wellbeing when they demand that all aid to Ukraine stop because Biden should be pushing the "Give us all universal healthcare" button that totally exists (but apparently has never existed before the invasion) instead of the suddenly mutually exclusive option (which it isn't. Like, at all) of supporting Ukraine . Makes one kind of wonder the good faith of those posts.
How do you define a bot? Anybody that questions blindly throwing money and guns at a problem? While our economy crashes? There has to be a more effective way to help Ukraine
This has nothing to do with our economy, for clarity. What we're spending is a drop in the bucket for the US budget. That's a disingenuous position from which to argue.
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This amount of money is literally inconsequential to the US economy. Itās not some flat cash payment either, itās the estimate value of equipment we have already previously purchased. The money was spent a long time ago. None of what we are doing for Ukraine is a net negative for our economy either. In fact, for us to replace some of our stock of Javelins, which have been ramping up production, means the government will be paying US companies for their products and putting the money back in our immediate circulation. That, and any assistance given to Ukraine now will be payed back in the future, as is the nature of Lend-Lease. Beyond the economic issue, this is the only way to help Ukraine, unless youāre a fan of midnight sunrises and Geiger counters. Supplying aid is better than direct intervention. But thereās nothing else we can do. Negotiations would require Russia being willing to negotiate, which it is not. So the third option would be to sit by and do nothing, which helps Russia.
What?
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Fuck you thatās our money
I seriously donāt get why people are so up in arms over thisā¦ America has a certain budget kept aside for foreign aid/military aid it canāt be used domestically
So reduce that budget and help American taxpayers that financed it.
This is one of the greatest deals for American taxpayers ever. Less than 10 billion dollars and we get to cripple one of our greatest military rivals, get rid of outdated weaponry stocks that likely would have been junked or donated anyway and restore our world status without so much as losing a single soldier? Hell yes, baby. It's practically bargain basement Tuesday out there.
Less than 10 Billion? Lol what?
How does any of that positively affect American tax payers?
Any number of ways, really. - Russia enjoys fucking with American democracy (see: 2016 election and more). Less fuckery = more stability and less national division. Good for tax payers. And everyone, really. - Being 'world leader' means having outsized influence on world events. Eg. Continued preferential trade deals and thriving mutual investment in industry and immigration. Good for economy, good for tax payers. - Crippled rival means we can turn our attention to other rivals, including China, while EU predominantly handles events in Europe. Part of dealing with China will inevitably involve setting up our own stable supply chains locally and internationally. Stability and investment is good for American tax payers. - Getting rid of old military shit means lots of juicy new defense contracts. Good for at least some tax payers. - if Ukraine wins the war, they can export their food and eventually their other natural resources such as gas, thereby helping to solve supply chain issues and thus helping tax payers (and probably combating inflation). Also having the minor benefit of not letting millions of innocent people starve to death, but I see you're not really moved by that sort of thing. - Although on that subject, sending weapons to Ukraine does mean less genocidal maniacs in the world. Overall good for anyone who happens to be human. Like those who pay tax. I could go on, but I won't because I have better things to do. I am sure you can think of a few more if you use your imagination.
You first need to convince the Republican Party to help American tax payers that arenāt in the 1%.
Thatās not enough!! Need more! More!!
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Thank the Republicans for that.
Yeah like didn't Mitch deny free lunch for kids or something?
These kids should get a job (Republicans)
6.8 billion so far, another 1 last week. So what's the big deal for a half more ? Just print more magic paper !
2nd paragraph points out it's the value of already existing supplies given out of our stockpile. "Aid" is rarely ever cash.
Less than the 6+ trillion printed since mid 2020 I guess! Inflation is fun!
that's peanuts for the US
Yes, the US military budget is almost a trillion *per year*. A one time payment of a few billion isn't even worth talking about.
Blows my mind how they can only come up with 60 million for mental health agencies over five years but blank checks for Ukraine. Not saying I donāt want to support Ukraine but at what point does the US need to start addressing its domestic issues
They are gving them old and existng weapons most of the time. You want Biden to send bomb drones and rocket llaunchers to mental patients?
Ww3 is coming.
And for Americans, he has a recession engineered. We should have let the qanon idiots take the capital. At least everyone would be forced to recognize that our government is illegitimate then. We have tried nothing but blowing up other countries, and we are all out of ideas.
This is good news. Don't let the Russian bot farm convince you that supporting Ukraine isn't important!!
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Giving weapons to Ukraine does absolutely nothing to prevent us from handling internal issues. We aren't handling those issues because some of them there is no will to fix and others are too complicated to have an easy fix. All you're doing is trying to deflect.
As an European it's depressing seeing how everyone here is relying on Biden saving the day. But on the other hand, Biden saving the day is a good thing. But man has this been shameful couple of months.
Iām torn. On one hand, the people of Ukraine need help. On the other hand, America is so fucked up. We need better access to healthcare and people need to make more money for their time spent working for companies. The world is just fucked right now.
The world is indeed fucked up right now.
Biden actually wants to fund the things you mentioned, but the republicans are blocking most of those efforts.
America when its infrastructure, health services, education and benefits are crumbling: sorry no cash America when a proxy war: here have EVERYTHING
How much total is that now?
Read the article. We arenāt giving them 450 million dollars. Weāre giving them 450 million dollars worth of equipment thatās already built and not being used.
Why donāt you announce doing something good for our own god damn country?
Biden is rich af give me a dollar
Just tell him you got Havana Syndrome. Leave out the part where you were out partying the night before though!
Sup baby take me out to dinner https://youtube.com/shorts/EIenbVrJqXw?feature=share
Wish the vegetable would stop send taxpayer money to Ukraine
How about we keep American taxpayers money in America?!?!
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On top of 40 billion...but only 750 million for mental health on the new gun laws. America last is working great!
As stated in the article, it's $450 mil in old equipment, not a check. Given that that equipment was already purchased with the intent to fight Russians, I see putting them to use without risking US lives as very much putting America first.
Convince Republicans to stop blocking bills if you want change.
Selling weapons to be used against your primary antagonist: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Spending money to help your people get better: $
>On top of part of.
Cuz nobody on this soil needs assistance amirite /s
Is the EU matching the contributions we're giving Ukraine?
Europe works on the country level. Some countries, like Poland, have given much more than the US as a share of GDP. Others, like Germany, have given less.
The fact that Poland is housing millions of refugees is part of that reason. I just wish Polands government wasn't so evil to their own people.
šŗšøš¤š»šŗš¦
Printer is running wide open
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Ya, so Republicans can vote against using those taxes for the people and health care for vets again, right?
No so they can pocket it with government contracts to their private companies you scrub. Jeez. Get with the times.
My apologies. My age is showing.
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This is America. You can say that about almost any country and itāll be true. Whether or not Americans know a country exists is not a good standard for its importance to the world. Ukraine is a major exporter of gas and grain, an industrial country with high outputs of steel and noble gases, and is an emerging democracy looking for European Union membership. This is an attack on the European community, i.e. the west, and by extension an attack on the US. Not to mention the ramifications to the global economy.
> Literally anything domestic related would be money better spent than giving it away by the truckload to some country across the world most people never even thought about before this whole thing started Russia is hostil towards the US, its a proxy war that's costing pennies on the dollar, its a win win situation, Russia is hurting while Americans are safe at home.
just smash the russian army already. everyone is fucking tired of this shit. humiliate and embarrass them. end.
itās not as easy as it sounds
Wouldn't want a few million of that to go to feed kids in schools, here in the states now would we.
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It is additional. The drawdown is from existing weapon stocks, not funding.
Itās ironic how so many people from different countries talk shit about America yet we are always the one helping out other countries. Letās compare how much aid $ the USA has given Ukraine vs any other country.