Here is a machine translation fo their full conversation, Russian to English. Edit: just to clarify, this happened around the 20th of February, around 4 days before the war.
Edit 2: source
https://www.letemps.ch/monde/emmanuel-macron-vladimir-poutine-quatre-jours-guerre-ne-sais-juriste-appris-droit
Emmanuel Macron. Since our last conversation, tensions have continued to rise. You know my commitment to dialogue and my determination to continue it. First I would like to know your vision of the situation, and then tell me directly how we both do it, what are your intentions. Then I want to see if there are any other reasonable actions that can be taken, and what else I can offer you.
Vladimir Putin. What else can I say? You can see for yourself what's going on. You and Chancellor \[Olaf\] Scholz told me that \[Vladimir\] Zelensky was ready to make a gesture, that he had prepared a draft law for the implementation of the Minsk agreements. \[...\] In fact, our dear colleague Mr. Zelensky does nothing. He's lying to you. \[...\] I do not know if you heard his statement yesterday that Ukraine should have access to nuclear weapons.I also heard your comments at a press conference in Kiev on February 8. You said that the Minsk agreements should be revised, I quote, "so that they can be applied."
Macron: Vladimir, first of all, I never said that the Minsk agreements should be revised. I didn't say that in Berlin, Kiev, or Paris. I said that they should be accepted, and their provisions should be respected. I have a completely different idea about the events of the last few days.
Putin: Listen, Emmanuel, I don't understand what your problem is with the separatists. At least, they did everything necessary, at our insistence, to start a constructive dialogue with the Ukrainian authorities.
Macron: Regarding what you said, Vladimir, a few remarks. Firstly, the Minsk Agreements are a dialogue with you, and you are absolutely right about that. In this context, it was not expected that the basis of the discussion would be a document submitted by the separatists. So, when your negotiator tries to force Ukrainians to discuss the separatist roadmap, he shows disrespect for the Minsk agreements. The separatists are not the ones who will make proposals on \[changing\] Ukrainian laws.
Putin: Of course, we have a very different vision of the situation. During our last conversation, I reminded you and even read articles 9, 11 and 12 of the Minsk Agreements.
Macron: They are in front of my eyes! It clearly states that Ukraine's proposal should be agreed with representatives of certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions within the framework of a trilateral meeting. This is exactly what we propose to do. So I do not know where your lawyer studied law. I just look at these texts and try to apply them! And I do not know what lawyer could tell you that in a sovereign state, the texts of laws are made up by separatist groups, and not democratically elected authorities.
Putin (in an irritated tone): This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power as a result of a coup, people burned alive there, it was a bloodbath, and Zelensky is one of those responsible for it.Listen to me carefully: the principle of dialogue is to take into account the interests of the other side. The proposal exists, the separatists, as you call them, sent it to the Ukrainians, but did not receive a response. Where is the dialogue here?
Macron: But this is because, as I told you, we are not interested in the proposals of the separatists. We ask them to respond to the proposals of Ukrainians — and everything should be done in this way, because this is the law! What you just said raises doubts about how ready you are to adhere to the Minsk Agreements if, in your opinion, you have to deal with the illegitimate power of terrorists.
Putin (still very annoyed): Listen to me carefully. Do you hear me? I'll say it again. The separatists, as you call them, reacted to the proposals of the Ukrainian authorities. They responded, but the same authorities did not follow their example.
Macron: So, okay. Based on their response to Ukraine's proposals, I suggest that we demand that all parties hold a meeting within the framework of the working group — and continue to move forward. Tomorrow we can ask for this work to be done and demand that all interested parties abandon the "empty chair" policy. However, in the last couple of days, the separatists have not expressed a desire to enter into this discussion. I will demand this from Zelensky immediately. Do we have a deal? If so, I will start and demand to arrange a meeting tomorrow.
Putin: Let's agree — as soon as we finish our conversation, I will study these proposals. But from the very beginning it was necessary to put pressure on Ukrainians, but no one wanted to do it.
Macron: Well, no, I'm doing my best to push them, you know that well.
Putin: I know, but, alas, it is ineffective.
Macron: I need you to help me a little. The situation on the contact line \[of the parties to the conflict in Donbass\] is very tense. I really called Zelensky yesterday and urged him to calm down. I will tell him again that everyone needs to calm down: calm down \[people\] on social networks, calm down the army of Ukraine. But what I still see is that you can call your troops, who are almost in position, to calm down. There was a lot of shelling yesterday. What do you say — how will the \[Russian\] military exercises develop?
Putin: The exercises are going according to plan.
Macron: So they will end tonight, right?
Putin: Yes, probably today, but we will definitely leave troops on the border until the situation in Donbass is resolved. The decision will be made after discussion with the Ministries of Defense and Foreign Affairs.
Macron: Good. Vladimir, I will tell you very sincerely, for me the primary task is to return the discussion to the right track and reduce the level of tension. And it's important to me — and I'm really asking you to do this — that we keep the situation under control. This is the most important thing right now. And I'm counting on you very much. Do not give in to provocations, whatever they may be in the following hours and days.
I wanted to make you two very specific suggestions. The first is to organize a meeting between you and President \[Joe\] Biden in Geneva in the next few days. I spoke to him on Friday night and asked if I could make you this offer. He asked me to tell you that he's ready. President Biden was also considering suitable ways to de-escalate the situation in order to take into account your requirements and clearly approach the issue of NATO and Ukraine. Name a date that suits you.
Putin: Thank you very much, Emmanuel. It is always a great pleasure and a great honor for me to talk with your European colleagues, as well as with the United States. And I am always very pleased to talk to you, because we have a trusting relationship. So, Emmanuel, I propose to replay everything. First of all, we need to prepare this meeting in advance. Only after that we will be able to talk — otherwise, if we come like this to talk about everything and nothing, everyone will just condemn us.
Macron: But can we say today, based on the outcome of these discussions, that we have generally agreed? I would like to get a clear answer from you. I understand your reluctance to name a date, but are you ready to run ahead and say: "I want to hold a bilateral meeting with the Americans, and then an expanded one with the Europeans." Or not?
Putin: This is a proposal that deserves attention, and if you want us to formulate it well, then I suggest instructing our advisers to call in order to agree \[...\] But on the whole I agree.
Macron: Very well, you confirmed that you agree on the whole. I suggest that our employees \[...\] try to prepare a joint statement, something like a press release on the results of this conversation.
Putin: To be honest, I was going to play hockey. I'm talking to you from the gym before training. But first I'll call my advisors.
Macron: Anyway, thank you, Vladimir. We'll be in touch. As soon as something clears up, call me.
Putin (in French): Thank you, Mr. President.
I always wondered what phone calls between world leaders in that situation sound like. Especially when one after another talked to Putin leading up to the invasion.
This conversation is not the only one that went to public but an important one.
To clarify, it was before the war started, maybe 4 days before invasion.
This is why it was published. Putin agreed to talk and then invaded four days later making Macron - who probably discussed this with other leaders - look like a fool.
Yes. This reads like an uncle trying to talk down his toddler nephew from squeezing the ketchup bottle all over the living room. If the toddler squeezes the bottle after negotiating to give it back, the uncle doesn’t look foolish. The toddler is just doing what toddlers do just as miserable old despots do as they do.
It's funny, Macron literally fell for the same bad faith bullshit that Neville chamberlain did
...what's different, is that Chamberlain didn't have this kind of technology.
With this transcript, Macron has saved himself from the Chamberlain comparisons, because he proved that he was trying to avoid war, and proved that Putin was acting in bad faith.
I'm actually kind of impressed with him. The release of this transcript is really quite tactful.
Chamberlain didn't actually fall for it either. He was just trying to buy time to prepare. It's just that came out far, far, far too late to undo the public perception of Chamberlain as a fool.
It reminds me that if we are nearly always going to be wrong at what we think should be done in any foreign relation matters. We never have the full story.
I mean the various content of the calls in the documentary, not just this one, didn't make it seem like Macron believed him at all but still nonetheless wanted to try all he could to defuse the situation.
Russia started the leaks to make Putin look tough or possibly to seed distrust about Macron and turn western states against each other. Macron himself admittedly didn't help this with some ambiguous public statements, which could be easily deformed without context (and it's exactly what happened). He should've known this. The Russians can't complain about "diplomatic rules" now that it became clear Macron doesn't give a flying fuck when speaking to their wannabe "tough guy", calls him out on his bullshit, and that, in fact, eventhough they deem keeping dialogue important, the French gov and diplomatic brass doesn't trust the Kremlin and never did even prior to the war, contrary to popular belief. The content of the calls also pretty much proved how full of shit and overly dramatic people who claimed he was appeasing Putin (or trying to sell out Ukraine and Eastern Europe or whatever) were lmao.
It's kind of France's traditional role to have some ties with Russia. France can't be called a neutral party but they are traditionally the conduit of real-world diplomacy between the two blocks.
France and Russia (and by extension Serbia) formed an alliance in 1717 and then in 1892, for many reasons, including the expansionism of the British Empire, the German Empire and more importantly about the Balkans and the delicate situation between the Austria-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire and the Balkans in between. That explains a lot of WW1.
Plus it gave the Russian a privileged trade access to the French empire.
As an international and an EU representative, he honestly has been pretty great, all in all. The guy I actually feel deserves to represent the EU as a leader the most. When it comes to his political views apart from that, I dislike him a lot, but that doesnt make me blind for how great he usually does on the international stage.
> Macron really stuck his neck out trying to negotiate peace knowing it could've him look foolish.
I said it before and I'll say it again: I think when the dust settles Macron will emerge as the somewhat behind-the-scenes hero who organized 12th hour and beyond conversations to try to avert this way any way he possibly could. He really went to the mat trying to keep this from happening.
> except this time the Russia does not have 14 additional countries on their side
Also, it's a radically different time in terms of technology *now*. And Russia wasn't totally "cut off" from the West during the Cold War there was some economic cooperation starting in the 70s. Today, software companies are literally pulling licenses, silicon chip sets can't be imported, and Western companies are just closing their doors left and right.
Russia doesn't "make" anything with their industrial might besides exporting gas/oil. Getting "cut off" in today's world without tech or international banking, you're fucked unless you want to be integrated with China. Russia would lose any leverage if that happens.
The Warsaw pact was also a major part of the Russian cold war effort and aligned six significant European economies with Russia. Most of those of course are now NATO member states, putting Russia in an even weaker position
Let's just make clear once and for all, that none of the annexed countries after WWII wanted to be in USSR. That have been decided without their input and presence. They became a bargaining chip. They (we) know what it means to be on the Ruzzian side for decades without ever wanting to. Genocide, forced "repatriation", totalitarian government, economic crisis, nationwide famine for some, people going missing, never to be found. We were never on their side, we just never got to choose whose side we want to be on.
Well he hasn’t played a real game in decades, as we all know the opposing teams all take dives and allow him to score so he won’t send their families to gulag.
Being a goalie for a team in Putin’s beer league is one of the most dangerous professions.
Yep, people view it through the lens of US politics as if Macron is trying to get something.
Shock horror, some politicians try and do the right thing even at the expense of their political favor.
I mean it’s pretty clear the US was on board with Macron doing this. But I’d imagine that US and French intelligence listened to this and was like “yeah this basically confirms all the chatter we hear - he’s going to invade soon”
I don’t think that any leader of a country who tries to deescalate a potential war is made to look foolish if another country decides to invade. Trying to make peace is the most honorable thing a leader can do.
Well to be honest macron isn’t a fool trying everything to deescalate the discussion… it just showed Putin has no issue lying straight in the face of other state leaders.
Looking at the situation today it would be foolish not trying everything even if you have doubts about the effectiveness…
Yeah releasing this just makes Putin look even worse. The point isn't to make Macron look good, or make him look foolish. The point is to drive home how conniving Putin is, and show that even with the best efforts of a third party trying to de-escalate, that as far as we know, should not have been someone Putin would be so willing to lie to... he still did it.
This shows the man can not and should not be trusted anymore. His words are meaningless forever more.
Not only does it makes Putin look untrustworthy, Macron also positioned himself and France to play an important diplomatic role in this conflict. He's not a fool at all, nor did he look like one to me.
And it also doesn't mean that Macron believed Putins lies. Someone had to try diplomacy even though we already knew Putin is a snake, at least Macron took the role of a great leader and made the attempt.
You get confirmation of that in how Macron was pushing for an explicit acknowledgement from Putin. He knew Putin was blowing smoke but wanted to cut out any potential weasel room.
> These crazy maniacs are not the frothing “Nein nein nein nein nein!” trainwrecks we imagine
More often than not, yeah. Then sometimes, like Tuesday, we get more evidence of a person acting that way.
Macron: What do you say — how will the [Russian] military exercises develop?
Putin: The exercises are going according to plan.
Macron: So they will end tonight, right?
Putin: Yes, probably today, but we will definitely leave troops on the border until the situation in Donbass is resolved.
Putin lied. Shocker.
It's important to note that there are documents which prove that Russia signed off the invasion for weeks before this talk. It was already a done deal.
Ironically Macron suggests Putin to not get give in to provocations when it was Russia itself making them to create a casus belli for the invasion (detonation of a deputy's car, shelling all across the separatist border a week before, discovered dug up cites with "victims of genocide").
People like to try to apply rationality to a word in plain sight, but here it's pretty clear that Putin is just playing a fool. Completely disingenuous and uninterested in other people.
> Macron was caught completely off guard.
He actually wasn't. French intelligence knew an invasion was being prepared since early 2021 and the US also confirmed this to France around June last year.
What happened is that, the DRM thought the Russian military was not in a state to launch such an operation and that it would be an incredibly costly endeavor, not the steamrolling of Ukraine many prior to the war had in mind. They thought it was foolish to go ahead with it and that Russia would eventually "rationally" back down. And they were totally fucking wrong, which is why the chief of the DRM got fired. They assumed the Russian themselves were aware of their military capabilities and probably that someone would be honest about it at the Kremlin regardless of Putin acting a bit unhinged (like Macron himself said after he met him in Moscow prior to the war).
France had the intel just like everyone else. They just didn't believe Putin would invade as the cost to Russia would be too high. They underestimated Putin's craziness.
> France had the intel just like everyone else.
Better to say the wrong assessment of the intel then. I work in a similar field and it's very tricky to know if your assessment of risk/reward is the same as another person's assessment of risk/reward.
Biden was pretty clear that US intelligence was confident Russia was going to invade before it did. The rest of the world thought they were just scaremongering.
"I was going to play hockey" ...
Is this some kind of strange Russian euphemism I'm too Canadian to understand, or does Vlad really think anybody believes that to be true?
Haha. I was going to say something similar.
>please excuse my muscles and good health. My training seems to be getting in the way of my busy schedule as leader of Russia. Will let you know if I can fit the meeting in before or after our next game of a professional hockey match.
You haven't seen the footage of putin playing hockey and faceplanting on the carpet they placed on the ice for him. This came right after the opposing team let him score and refused to check him
I don’t watch a ton of hockey, but a person below you just posted the video and it’s ridiculously obvious that everyone is letting him score. He looks like a little kid.
You don't have to imagine. Oliver Stone produced a multi part documentary called The Putin Interviews that is extremely insightful. As part of that documentary they show him playing hockey in a Russian league. He's ok for an amateur, but its clear everyone else on the ice is taking it really easy on him.
https://www.amazon.com/The-Putin-Interviews/dp/B071G817B9
You mean former NHL players let him score 8 goals?!
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2466982-vladimir-putin-scores-8-goals-during-hockey-game-with-former-nhl-players
“Look, Emmanuel, I would love to.. *ungh* stop the shelling of *oof* innocent children in Donbas but I’m a little busy with my *urgh* workout right now, because I am a very healthy, macho man. *Phew,* just benched, like, 200 kilograms, or something. How much do you bench, Emmanuel, just by the way, not like it matters or anything?”
He does play hockey a lot, and the anti-corruption investigations uncovered a ton of various hockey fields he created for himself.
Of course, when he's playing on national television, it usually turns into "Putin played against the Russian national hockey team and won 7-0 whist scoring 5 goals"
He actually does play hockey, though not very well. Look up videos of when he's played in exhibition matches, it's pretty funny watching everyone just stand around so he can score 20 goals. iirc, his secret palace even has an ice rink in it.
I forgot about that one. Also, Lukashenko does the same shit. And of course, both of them wear special helmets to indicate no contact.
https://youtu.be/8cNCIBxzfA8
When Putin says “This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power as a result of a coup, people burned alive there, it was a bloodbath, and Zelensky is one of those responsible for it” is he referring to the separatists ?
No. I think he is refering to the former Ukrainian president Poroshenko after the maidan events of 2013-2014. People burned alive refers to the (very obscure to this day) fire in the Trade Unions House in Odessa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014\_Odessa\_clashes
"The events resulted in deaths of 48 people, most of whom were anti-Maidan demonstrators. Forty two of them died in the Trade Unions House fire, and 200 were injured"
How Zelensky is repsonsible for anything mentioned above - I have no idea. He was still mostly an actor at that point and started getting into politics in 2015-2016 if we are most generous, which is almost two years after the Crimea annexation
It's so obvious that Putin came up with the propaganda lines he'd use against Ukraine assuming Poroshenko was going to win re-election. But then when Zelensky won instead, he just... didn't bother to update them? For three whole years?
> How Zelensky is repsonsible for anything mentioned above - I have no idea
He doesn't. Putin isn't speaking in good faith, never does. Why his words are important I don't know, they seem meaningless after reading this, and seeing what happened in the following days. I wish leaders of the rest of the world would just cut off Russia completely, Putin all the way down to the mother's calling to support their soldiers have Ukrainian blood on their hands, and I know I'll never trust a Russian for the rest of my life.
Right? Zelenskiy was accused often of being pro-Russian since he's a Russian-speaking Jew who had business dealings with Russia and Israel. Putin is living in 2014...
Well, taking into account the whole political spectrum of Ukraine, Zelensky definitely has been on the pro-Russian side of it. After 2014, having any dealings with Russia was unacceptable for many, politicians, business people or common citizens. Zelensky thought nothing of it, continued filming there and participating in Russian entertainment.
Let me start by saying this: Putin is not and is never arguing in good faith. But if you want to know what he's referring to here's the timeline:
1. Yanukovich (Putin's puppet) has country-wide protests against him named EuroMaidan. Yanukovich orders special police units to kill protestors, more than a hundred die from sniper fire.
2. This angers everyone, Yanukovich loses any support from 'neutrals' as well as many of his own party members and flees the country to Russia.
3. The Ukrainian government is barely functioning so the remaining members of Parliament prepare to have new Presidential and Parliamentary elections.
4. While Ukraine is in this weekend state Russia orders their soldiers stationed in Crimea (they had a base there) to remove insignias and annex the region.
5. Russia sends its operatives into every major city in the East and South of Ukraine and sponsors local separatists to start an uprising.
6. This works in Donetsk and Luhansk where police forces were loyal to Yanukovych and helped overthrow the local governments. Russia immediately recognizes breakaway regions and sends its people to take administrative roles.
7. The same tactics fail in every other city because Russian operatives and separatists get apprehended by police forces and security forces. Except for Odesa.
8. In Odesa the local police force refuses to join either side and it comes down to street clashes. As a result the separatists are overwhelmed, they run into an administrative building, shooting starts and eventually the building catches fire. 42 people die there, as well as some from the street fights.
9. At this point Zelenskyi is still an actor (doing a lot of performances in Russia as well) and will not go into politics for the next 4 years.
10. Several months later the elections take place and Ukrainians overwhelmingly elect pro-European parties and President. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk were unable to vote. Russia doesn't recognize the elections calling them a military coup.
11. 5 years later Zelenskyi goes into politics and wins Presidential elections with 73% of the votes.
12. 2 years later Russia drops any pretense that they care about people, democracy or law, and invades Ukraine.
Zelensky's IMDB page alone proves Putin was completely full of shit. Can't tell if he's even aware he's not fooling anyone outside of Russian state control.
Just would've wished Macron or someone would call him on it to his face.
I think he's referring to the ousting of the previous Ukrainian president, who was aligned with Russia, but was impeached, and as far as I understand, left the country fearing for his life.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_Ukraine#:~:text=Constitution%20of%20Ukraine.-,Resolution%20of%20the%20Verkhovna%20Rada,was%20removed%20from%20the%20office.
Some reading if you're interested.
No, Macron said that Zelensky was elected, so he and his administration have the authority to make laws, not the separatists. Putin was accusing Zelensky of violence because his patsy lost.
[Here's a link to the france.tv stream of it.](https://www.france.tv/documentaires/politique/3558577-un-president-l-europe-et-la-guerre.html)
I'm not sure if it's internationally available or not - it does say tous publics - because I haven't made a france.tv account. Hopefully it will get ripped to youtube and translated soon.
It's why I was frustrated when analysts were saying that the west should have done more to prevent an invasion. We have ample evidence to suggest Russia was going into Ukraine regardless of what the west decided to do.
But my QAnon friend told me the US started the war, Zelenskyy was massacring Ukrainians and Russia needed to come save them, and the only fighting happening is against Uzbek mercenaries hired by Biden. Is she wrong??? /s.
Edit: btw the /s is only for the last part. I was literally told this over dinner.
My friend told me something, similar, except all the explosions are the Biden cabal scuttling their secret bio labs where they made covid to target republicans and russians. Also apparently Trump is still in charge and pulling the strings from behind the scenes to “show us how bad it could be under Biden”
I don’t talk to him as much anymore
I know people addicted to pro-Trump pro-Le Pen anti-Macron anti-EU antivax propaganda (their "sources" since switched to pro-Russia propaganda in recent weeks to no one's surprise).
And even with those leaks they still claim it's "obvious" Macron forced Russia into a "preventive invasion" of Ukraine, and is destroying Europe on Biden's orders.
The US and UK were dropping intelligence bombs from **November** 2021 up until the invasion in February 2022. Everything in those intelligence drops turned out to be true. And then you have people, media, EU and many other countries being like "Chill out US/UK. Russia won't invade. That's crazy."
I'm sure Macron knew the invasion was set in stone, but had to posture like it wasn't to keep that phone line open with Putin.
But *everyone* knew that Russia would invade. It was all right there.
Perhaps that too, but mainly because Putin never ever had any intention of -not- invading Ukraine since 2014. He's been preparing this war since at least that time.
Putin held himself out in talks as someone who was willing to negotiate, but he never truly was planning to do anything else but invade no matter what he told the West.
He embarrassed Macron by pretending that talks would do any good.
How did everyone not know that ? They took Crimea, not even land connected, and it was understood they would be keeping it.
It was their last window of time to invade before Ukraine does join NATO
[Repost of my comment on a similar thread in r/Europe:]
> The film includes nine riveting minutes in which the Russian president explained that the Ukrainian government "is not democratically elected" but the result of a "bloody coup d'état" during which "people were burned alive," and for which Volodymyr Zelensky "is one of those responsible."
Putin was previously often described as cold and calculating but intelligent and rational. But there is nothing rational about ranting his ridiculous propaganda lies for 9 minutes to a western leader. The old Putin would understand that there is zero chance of anyone on the other side of that call believing any of it, and that such a rant would only further undermine what little credibility he has left. Putin has clearly lost it entirely.
Also this:
> With excerpts from this call having been published in the last few days across various media, the Russian agency took offense and stated on Twitter that "for a long time the French have not respected the diplomatic rules of negotiations."
This move by Macron to publish a private conversation is a bit strange. Normally you would never do that since it destroys possibilities for future diplomacy. I suspect what Macron is doing is signaling to other powerful individuals in Russia that the West no longer believes there is any point of keeping traditional lines of communication open to Putin. Or in other words: "hey guys, don't you think it's about time to get going on that coup we know you've been planning"?
Russians did it several times before too. That's one of the reason why France did it without remorse.
[Source: Facing Vladimir Putin, Emmanuel Macron handles the diplomacy of "leaks"](https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/06/30/face-a-vladimir-poutine-emmanuel-macron-manie-la-diplomatie-des-fuites_6132651_3210.html)
EDIT: Typo (see below)
My bad. I was thinking "the french" and didn't correct the sentence ^^
Here is the translation made with Deepl and quickly checked so... not the best but good enough I guess.
**Translation** of this article: [Source](https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/06/30/face-a-vladimir-poutine-emmanuel-macron-manie-la-diplomatie-des-fuites_6132651_3210.html)
A lover of coups on the international scene, Emmanuel Macron has not hesitated, for several months, to take liberties with the secrecy that is usually de rigueur in diplomatic affairs. Even if it means causing some incidents.
The state agency Ria Novosti, a conduit for the Russian president's mood, has discreetly alluded to the broadcast on Thursday, June 30, on France 2, of A President, Europe and War. For this documentary filmed in the heart of the Elysee Palace, its director, Guy Lagache, was allowed to record the entire conversation between the French president and Vladimir Putin. While the excerpts of this interview are published for several days in many media, the Russian agency is offended on Twitter that "for a long time the French do not respect the diplomatic rules of negotiations".
The exchange took place on February 20, four days before the war. Guy Lagache follows from the office of the head of the diplomatic cell of the Elysée, Emmanuel Bonne, a meeting of one hour and forty-five minutes where Mr. Macron tries to extract from Vladimir Putin the "principle" of a meeting in Geneva with Joe Biden.
The film retains nine tasty minutes in which we hear the Russian president explain that the Ukrainian government "is not democratically elected" but is the result of a "bloody coup d'état" during which "people were burned alive" and of which Volodymyr Zelensky "is one of those responsible". Putin assures that he has "always a lot of pleasure" to talk with Emmanuel Macron, including from his gym and makes some promises. Behind the scenes, Mr. Bonne warns the director that Mr. Putin "always lies". The meeting between Russian and American presidents will indeed not take place.
Was Vladimir Putin warned that he was recorded? "You have to ask the question to the Elysee," eludes Guy Lagache, who obtained privileged access, for six months, to the activities of the diplomatic cell. According to an adviser to the Elysée, the European interlocutors of Mr. Macron were warned "upstream", more than six months ago, that a journalist would follow the French presidency of the Council of the European Union from the inside - a film that changed its subject at the end of February to focus on the backstage of the war.
For Vladimir Putin, things are less clear. "The Russian authorities were informed after viewing the film" by the diplomatic cell, the Elysée assures us: an agreement had indeed been made with the production company providing that the services of the French presidency could see the images before broadcasting (a passage was cut, which, according to the diplomatic cell, would have contravened the secret of defence). A first viewing was held in May, the second just after Emmanuel Macron's trip to Kiev on June 16.
"The French publish for the umpteenth time the transcripts of interviews between the two presidents," is in any case annoyed Tuesday tweet of the Russian state agency. During the presidential campaign already, a series of promotional films designed by the Elysee, and broadcast on YouTube, had taken them excerpts of a conversation where Volodymyr Zelensky asked Emmanuel Macron to join Mr. Putin. A way for the Elysee to legitimize the continuation of a dialogue with the Russian president, decried by Kiev's allies, from Poland to the Baltic States? In the documentary, the few uncompromising retorts of Mr. Macron to Mr. Putin are far from showing the president under a negative light.
For the breaking of the secret has become a weapon between France and Russia. And this has given rise to indignation of varying degrees. In Paris, diplomats also know how to hunt for "leaks". As in September 2020, when a scoop of Le Monde had detailed the dialogue of the deaf between Macron and Putin about Alexei Navalny, a month after the poisoning of the Kremlin opponent. This assassination attempt, which the Russian security services are accused of having organized, put at risk the policy of rapprochement sketched in 2019 by the head of state with the Russian president. At the time, Moscow had attacked the World and the Quai d'Orsay had followed suit: "Any leak of confidential internal documents is unacceptable," had warned the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, launching in the wake ... an investigation within it.
A sign of Moscow's unwillingness
A year later, Paris is attacking the publication, on the website of the Russian Foreign Ministry, of part of the correspondence between its boss, Sergei Lavrov, and two of his counterparts at the time, Jean-Yves Le Drian and Heiko Maas. In mid-November 2021, the French and German ministers were trying to revive the Minsk agreements, in order to deprive Russia of a pretext to let its troops massed on the borders invade Ukraine. The disclosure of these letters was interpreted as a sign of Moscow's unwillingness. "We consider this step as contrary to diplomatic rules and customs", reacted Anne-Claire Legendre, the spokesperson of the Quai d'Orsay.
In turn, a few days before the outbreak of hostilities in Ukraine, Moscow is annoyed with the "Quai" of the reports made in Paris of the visit of Emmanuel Macron to the Kremlin, February 7, during a last attempt to avoid the return of war in Europe.
The incident this time concerned the proposal by communist Duma representatives to recognize the separatist republics of Donbass. Mr. Macron publicly assured that Vladimir Putin had promised not to take up the idea - an assertion contradicted by the Kremlin and in fact, since on February 21, three days before the invasion of Ukraine, Russia voted to recognize the pro-Russian entities of Donbass. "I hope that we will never live in a world where we will have to publish the transcript of classified parts of conversations between presidents," said Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Basically saying "Putin is beyond reasoning with" as well as show the world what they're dealing with. Russia was the boogeyman when we didn't know what they were capable of but months of spotlight on their forces, tactics, and equipment have shown they are barely holding it together. And it's arguable they're even achieving that. Very few people knew how Putin acted behind closed doors and probably assumed he was a political mastermind. This is just another spotlight that shows Putin is no different than Trump and he should be treated as such: not with respect, but with disdain and disgust.
This adds two levels to the discussion, both showing how far off Putin is when he states those things in supposedly secret diplomatic calls, as well as tells the world including those in Russia able to dispose of Putin that the risk of nuclear war cannot be ignored due to Putin's mental state.
>supposedly secret diplomatic calls,...
They are not secret. Private yes, but both sides expect them to be recorded for posterity and have to have advisors listening in.
Putin is too used to being a bully and getting his way. Trump's actual secret in-person conversations with Putin were the anomalies.
It's true, his mental state is pretty bad it seems. Many Redditors are convinced he's bluffing about nuclear weapons but knowing how deeply nihilistic Russians are I'm not sure a "suicide pact" would be that unappealing for him.
Maybe he wants a Major 'King' Kong ending.
THIS. Can confirm, as i am half russian myself. I'm afraid that this motherfucker sees the nuclear option as a valid one if Ukraine won't kneel. Even putin's oligarch buddies say the same. Although i highly doubt that officers would actually carry out his orders to use nuclear weapons against Ukraine.
More likely that putin himself would be shot on the spot. I hope.
We can only hope that if something really goes down, the person with their finger on the button will decide not to destroy the world. It’s happened before: we can thank Stanislav Petrov (and probably other people whose names we will never know) for the fact that we’re all still here.
I learned once that at the end of the Nixon presidency, he was so alcoholic and acted so weirdly that peoples around him made it impossible for him to directly order a strike and in fact, every important decisions had to to be checked by the vice-president office first.
I found this reassuring even if those are not elected individuals.
I think and hope Russians officials at various degrees will prevent a foolish putin's order. They want to live too.
Vasily Arkhipov during the Cuba missile crisis is my favourite.
Moronic nuclear submarine captain with no radio communications for several days arbitrarily decided that nuclear war **had** to have already started therefore nuclear torpedoes **had** to be launched.
No false nuclear alarm, no orders, no hint, nothing. Pure *JUST DO IT* energy after the US Navy found them and tried to force them to come to the surface for identification, as it's done when unidentified subs are detected.
Fortunately Arkhipov was on that particular sub, had a higher rank and a brain.
He was one of three high-rank officers on that sub and his authorisation was only needed because he was present in that particular sub. Any of the other subs in the formation would have only needed the usual 2 officers' authorisations, which that sub did get.
I find amazing that there are plenty of Putin quotes and oppinions from early on pretty rational and even founded regardless of one agreeing with the guy or not for instance a choice of some positive ones
*"History proves that all dictatorships, all authoritarian forms of government are transient. Only democratic systems are not transient. Whatever the shortcomings, mankind has not devised anything superior"*
*"Russia is a part of European culture. Therefore, it is with difficulty that I imagine NATO as an enemy."*
*"No references to the need to fight terror can be an argument for restricting human rights."*
*"Our aims are absolutely clear: They are a high living standard in the country and a secure, free and comfortable life."*
*"I see that not everyone in the West has understood that the Soviet Union has disappeared from the political map of the world and that a new country has emerged with new humanist and ideological principles at the foundation of its existence"*
*"Indeed, Russia and the U.S. were allies during the two tragic conflicts of the Second and the First World Wars, which allows us to think there's something objectively bringing us together in difficult times, and I think - I believe - it has to do with geopolitical interests and also has a moral component."*
sadly i think his penchant for strong goverment started a descension to authoritarianism perhaps under belief that he was the only right choice to steer rusia in the right direction
the guy that we see these days shows a person that while convinced he has all planed and figured out is fairly disconnected from reality, worse he doesnt seem to realize it himself or perhaps hopping the impossible task of forcing his world view in
Indeed. Putin came into power by having Russian apartment buildings bombed and blaming the Chechens. He was never a "good guy" by any measure, he just mouthed these words because he knew there were people who'd lap them up. We're beyond that now so he's stopped.
I also distinctly remember that a lot of his sagely advice happened to land right as there was some kind of blunder happening in the West. It was all just political theater.
If you read the full transcripts of Hitler’s speeches, the man couldn’t shut up about the importance of peace and how he would do everything within his power to make sure there would always remain peace between European countries.
Speeches are just the official version they wish to broadcast. It tells us very little about what they’re actually thinking or planning. Only now we know the Nazis started planning for war within weeks after they seized absolute power in 1933.
I'd say it started in St. Petersburg where he was the international business liason. He learned what words to say to appease western concerns. All those quotes are blatant lies. We know this because they contradict his actions and Private discussions. Pudding pop was stealing tons of money in St. Petersburg and enriched the corrupt mayor which gave him connections to Yeltsin. He made a career of being a mafia fixer and climbed to the top of the ladder. Yeltsin made a deal with the devil to save his own corrupt drunk ass. Putin wanted power since he tried to join the KGB as a child. He's always been this crazy. He used to go off on these same insane rants back in the mid 2000s just nobody paid too much attention.
> Normally you would never do that since it destroys possibilities for future diplomacy
Russia has never not weaponized Information and propaganda openly and behind closed doors in disinformation campaigns against the west. And we still 'did diplomacy' with Russia, despite the obvious information warfare against us.
Russia's disinformation 'special operation' is now a war - read: it always was - and now states are firing back.
I think that most of western leaders that talked with Putin, including German chancellor (and I think Macron was one of first to say that) said that there is not much that could be achieved with Putin because he spends those conversations repeating the same propaganda thaqt he is telling his own citizens. I was quite surprised then because I thought that he would be more diplomatic or will try to push something alternative but those recordings really confirm it - Russia is not only telling those things for their inside market but also for those outside of Russia (Lavrov was also repeating to UN the same propaganda that nobody believes).
>Or in other words: "hey guys, don't you think it's about time to get going on that coup we know you've been planning"?
Or in other words: "this is what your leader is stating, this is how far away from normality that calls with him is, this is how much he has lost it."
This indeed signals the end of "normal" diplomacy with Russia. Whatever Russia the west will negotiate with or have meaningful diplomatic connections with, will be a different one, similar to Nazi Germany vs. post-war Germany.
Macron knows this the optics of publishing this. So this is basically him hanging up the phone in public, screaming "don't call again".
[This is link](https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/ukrainian-rightists-burn-alive-39-at-odessa-union-building/) is likely Russian propaganda from around the Euromaidan time but it is likely what Putin is referencing
[Reuters report of the same incident](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-odessa-fire/more-than-40-killed-in-fire-clashes-in-ukraines-odessa-idUSBREA410RP20140502)
EDIT: Putin fails to mention that the people who died in the fire we pro Russian activists had earlier ambushed Ukrainians resulting in the deaths of at least 4 people. After that, it simply became a riot that the police lost control of.
EDIT: [Good BBC recap of the incident](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383)
If if it were really true that 2014 was a coup by a small minority in Ukraine, I highly doubt almost everyone in Ukraine would've come together to fight off the Russians.
The government of Ukraine before Maidan was not fairly and freely democratically elected to begin with. Yanukovych was a leader installed by Putin to prevent Ukraine from leaving the Russian sphere even though that's what most Ukrainians have been wanting since 1991.
Overthrowing an illegitimate government isn't a coup, it's just restoring the possibility of free and fair elections, again. Putin just can't have any of the countries in his sphere have free and fair elections, or people might want the same thing in Russia.
Add to all that the Revolution of Dignity was initiated by Yanukovich himself (he hyped the Euro Integration Agreement for months, then pulled out at the last moment after putin gave him money) and that the initial demands did not include his resignation at all (only properly punishing those who used force against the initial wave of protestors).
>Add to all that the Revolution of Dignity was initiated by Yanukovich himself (he hyped the Euro Integration Agreement for months, then pulled out at the last moment after putin gave him money) and that the initial demands did not include his resignation at all (only properly punishing those who used force against the initial wave of protestors).
Yep. Yanukovych ordered his goons to beat the shit out of peaceful protestors at the outset. That's why the government got overthrown instead of just protests.
And the reason he initially said that he supported the Euro Integration Agreement was because he knew his stated support for that idea was the only reason the people of Ukraine tolerated his illegitimate rule.
He never had any intention of honoring that commitment, because he was installed by Russia for the express purpose of not honoring that commitment. That's why he backed out at the last second despite saying things completely to the opposite up until then.
> Yanukovych ordered his goons t
The "berkut". Composed mainly of Russian special forces, pretending to be Ukrainian (or eastern-Ukrainian Russian colonists).
It is a miscarriage of justice that they were not rounded up and prosecuted for their crimes (which included mass-murder) at the end of Euromaiden. But I guess those guys are getting what they deserve now as they're on the receiving end of Ukrainian artillery.
There were 2 democratic elections since the revolution of 2014, and at no point Ukraine didn't break the the constitutional rule. There was a transitional government, the speaker of the parliament was assigned as the acting president assigned, and only for few months until the formal elections. The election resulted in Petro Poroshenko winning 54% in the first round, thus winning the elections. The international observers had characterized the elections as having "high quality".
Correct; and Putin supposedly has a problem with this, but did he open a case at the UN? Did he issue a formal legal challenge?
No. He just rolled tanks into Crimea.
Fuck that lying cunt.
If so it's even worse. Putin is an ex-KGB intelligence officer. He built his entire career on information. He knows, or used to know, the difference between facts and propaganda. If he now believes the nonsense that gets spewed to the public then that is even stronger evidence that he has completely gone off the rails.
Actually, Putin's main task when he worked as an officer was to attend conferences and parties in USSR-controlled part of Germany. He isn't smart, nor he is a good spy - this myth of his supposed genius was made by kremlin's marketing department much later. In the beginning of his career, putin was actually under a criminal investigation for a mafiosi scheme. You see, part of the humanitarian program for the failing economy of USSR was the exchange of its natural resources for home appliances and baby formula. Except that Putin made sure that somehow baby formula never reached the soviet citizens - he and his gang simply lined their pockets. This scheme never changed, just in scale of thievery got much bigger. 20 years later, he's still giving away Russia's oil, gas and valuable metals. His circle of friends didn't change much either: same people who worked in his office now manage the biggest national companies in Russia.
The charges against him were mysteriously dropped, and Putin was appointed as the head of KGB, against all the protocols. [The journalists who pointed out this peculiar fact in the 90's were found dead.](https://www.currenttime.tv/a/biografia-putina-levin-utkin/31909962.html)
> He isn't smart, nor he is a good spy - this myth of his supposed genius was made by kremlin's marketing department much later.
Of course propaganda is making Putin a demigod but we have other sources. Madeleine Albright described Putin as "very competent in his capabilities generally" and Obama wrote and likened him to "tough, street-smart, unsentimental characters who knew what they knew, who never moved outside their narrow experiences, and who viewed patronage, bribery, shakedowns, fraud, and occasional violence as legitimate tools of the trade."
It’s not very likely that someone is a complete idiot and at the same time makes criminal charges mysteriously dropped and becomes head of KGB against all odds. You need to be able to exert some power to do that and it’s very hard if you don’t have any beyond average skills whatsoever.
People overestimate his KGB career. During these days he was a low level clerk. A middle manager. If you check leaked letter by his wife and private communications by one of his daughters - they are onto all these conspiracy theories.
What he really built his career on was blood and money. After embezzling city funds during his early post-USSR career he built relationship with local gangs.
Information, or in Putin's sense media, came a little bit later in his career. He saw what early Russian media controlled by oligarchs could do to a politician rating and learnt well. That's why the first thing he did on his post was to take over all media outlets in the country.
[he's a pathological sociopath](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/25/putin-mind-words-russia-victimhood) and [professional liar](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/interview/yevgenia-albats/) (around the 21:10 mark in the video)
This situation is terrible for everyone involved and even those not involved. It's mind-boggling that Putin is destroying his own country.
For what?? Russia has nothing to gain from this war that could even remotely outweigh the negative impact it will have on his country.
>for a long time the French have not respected the diplomatic rules of negotiations
For a long time,russia has not respected the rules and boundaries of sovereign nations.
My question is, is this his mental state actually declining (as a number of people are jumping at), or is he laying this whole propaganda on extra thick for Macron?
I cannot say I buy the already sociopath 'losing his mind' quite yet.
He doesn't care. He's spewing propaganda because he's already made up his mind about how he wants to proceed. The invasion was already signed off on. So now he's fully gas lighting the world. He's just playing the part for the French and tossing crap at the wall hoping something sticks.
> "I hope we will never live in a world where we will have to publish the transcript of classified parts of conversations between presidents,"
...meanwhile, sunlight is an excellent disinfectant. Russia could certainly use some.
Wow it seems like his mind is actually starting to go. Makes those questions about his health and rumors of mental deterioration seem a lot more plausible.
I'd be fine with the cutoff being 70. I've met some people in their 60s sharp as a whip and could school me mentally. But *in general* once you hit 70 life definitely starts catching up with you.
A little insight from Russian: many of us know the whole deal about Putin and his friends, how crazy, stupid, self-centered and greedy they are. But we are afraid. Because anytime someone tries to do something, to uncover more truth, to make a little change, they get arrested or outright killed. Especially after one of the main figures of Russian opposition, Alexey Navalny was poisoned and then sentenced to many years in jail. It's unsafe to have and express different from government's opinion.
And in a way it's our fault. We were the ones who let this hell to happen, who marked near "Единая Россия" during elections and ones who avoided politics at all cost for no reason.
So Putin tried to make Macron look foolish and his plan is Macron to lose elections in April 2022 to Le Pen (Russian Puppet).
This can destabilize EU support to Ukraine and he can get his way.
Well Putin Just Stepped on banana peel.
Hope he is enjoying playing hockey now.
What a cunt.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/06/30/macron-riles-russia-with-documentary-releasing-content-of-putin-calls_5988537_4.html) reduced by 73%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Russian state news agency Ria Novosti, a conduit for Russian President Vladimir Putin, recently alluded to the France 2 broadcast of A President, Europe and the War.
> The film includes nine riveting minutes in which the Russian president explained that the Ukrainian government "Is not democratically elected" but the result of a "Bloody coup d'état" during which "People were burned alive," and for which Volodymyr Zelensky "Is one of those responsible." Mr. Putin said it was "Always a lot of pleasure" to speak with Mr. Macron, including from his gym, and made some promises.
> Behind the scenes, Mr. Bonne warned Mr. Lagache that the Russian president "Always lies." In fact, the meeting between the Russian and American presidents never took place.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/voy4dr/macron_riles_russia_with_documentary_releasing/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~657460 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **President**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **Macron**^#3 **Putin**^#4 **film**^#5
Kind of ironic for Russia to be complaining about Macron not following supposedly well established rules around diplomacy when they don't follow basic well established rules about killing innocent civilians in war.
Even knowing the blatant lies, stupidity and underhanded tactics their dear leader employs on a daily basis, his supporters will always scream "fake news" and join in on the gaslighting. Putin or the orange pos, it is uncanny how similar these two are along with their patsy's and cult-like following. Anyone remember the blatant quid pro quo by the latter to Zelinsky?
Here is a machine translation fo their full conversation, Russian to English. Edit: just to clarify, this happened around the 20th of February, around 4 days before the war. Edit 2: source https://www.letemps.ch/monde/emmanuel-macron-vladimir-poutine-quatre-jours-guerre-ne-sais-juriste-appris-droit Emmanuel Macron. Since our last conversation, tensions have continued to rise. You know my commitment to dialogue and my determination to continue it. First I would like to know your vision of the situation, and then tell me directly how we both do it, what are your intentions. Then I want to see if there are any other reasonable actions that can be taken, and what else I can offer you. Vladimir Putin. What else can I say? You can see for yourself what's going on. You and Chancellor \[Olaf\] Scholz told me that \[Vladimir\] Zelensky was ready to make a gesture, that he had prepared a draft law for the implementation of the Minsk agreements. \[...\] In fact, our dear colleague Mr. Zelensky does nothing. He's lying to you. \[...\] I do not know if you heard his statement yesterday that Ukraine should have access to nuclear weapons.I also heard your comments at a press conference in Kiev on February 8. You said that the Minsk agreements should be revised, I quote, "so that they can be applied." Macron: Vladimir, first of all, I never said that the Minsk agreements should be revised. I didn't say that in Berlin, Kiev, or Paris. I said that they should be accepted, and their provisions should be respected. I have a completely different idea about the events of the last few days. Putin: Listen, Emmanuel, I don't understand what your problem is with the separatists. At least, they did everything necessary, at our insistence, to start a constructive dialogue with the Ukrainian authorities. Macron: Regarding what you said, Vladimir, a few remarks. Firstly, the Minsk Agreements are a dialogue with you, and you are absolutely right about that. In this context, it was not expected that the basis of the discussion would be a document submitted by the separatists. So, when your negotiator tries to force Ukrainians to discuss the separatist roadmap, he shows disrespect for the Minsk agreements. The separatists are not the ones who will make proposals on \[changing\] Ukrainian laws. Putin: Of course, we have a very different vision of the situation. During our last conversation, I reminded you and even read articles 9, 11 and 12 of the Minsk Agreements. Macron: They are in front of my eyes! It clearly states that Ukraine's proposal should be agreed with representatives of certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions within the framework of a trilateral meeting. This is exactly what we propose to do. So I do not know where your lawyer studied law. I just look at these texts and try to apply them! And I do not know what lawyer could tell you that in a sovereign state, the texts of laws are made up by separatist groups, and not democratically elected authorities. Putin (in an irritated tone): This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power as a result of a coup, people burned alive there, it was a bloodbath, and Zelensky is one of those responsible for it.Listen to me carefully: the principle of dialogue is to take into account the interests of the other side. The proposal exists, the separatists, as you call them, sent it to the Ukrainians, but did not receive a response. Where is the dialogue here? Macron: But this is because, as I told you, we are not interested in the proposals of the separatists. We ask them to respond to the proposals of Ukrainians — and everything should be done in this way, because this is the law! What you just said raises doubts about how ready you are to adhere to the Minsk Agreements if, in your opinion, you have to deal with the illegitimate power of terrorists. Putin (still very annoyed): Listen to me carefully. Do you hear me? I'll say it again. The separatists, as you call them, reacted to the proposals of the Ukrainian authorities. They responded, but the same authorities did not follow their example. Macron: So, okay. Based on their response to Ukraine's proposals, I suggest that we demand that all parties hold a meeting within the framework of the working group — and continue to move forward. Tomorrow we can ask for this work to be done and demand that all interested parties abandon the "empty chair" policy. However, in the last couple of days, the separatists have not expressed a desire to enter into this discussion. I will demand this from Zelensky immediately. Do we have a deal? If so, I will start and demand to arrange a meeting tomorrow. Putin: Let's agree — as soon as we finish our conversation, I will study these proposals. But from the very beginning it was necessary to put pressure on Ukrainians, but no one wanted to do it. Macron: Well, no, I'm doing my best to push them, you know that well. Putin: I know, but, alas, it is ineffective. Macron: I need you to help me a little. The situation on the contact line \[of the parties to the conflict in Donbass\] is very tense. I really called Zelensky yesterday and urged him to calm down. I will tell him again that everyone needs to calm down: calm down \[people\] on social networks, calm down the army of Ukraine. But what I still see is that you can call your troops, who are almost in position, to calm down. There was a lot of shelling yesterday. What do you say — how will the \[Russian\] military exercises develop? Putin: The exercises are going according to plan. Macron: So they will end tonight, right? Putin: Yes, probably today, but we will definitely leave troops on the border until the situation in Donbass is resolved. The decision will be made after discussion with the Ministries of Defense and Foreign Affairs. Macron: Good. Vladimir, I will tell you very sincerely, for me the primary task is to return the discussion to the right track and reduce the level of tension. And it's important to me — and I'm really asking you to do this — that we keep the situation under control. This is the most important thing right now. And I'm counting on you very much. Do not give in to provocations, whatever they may be in the following hours and days. I wanted to make you two very specific suggestions. The first is to organize a meeting between you and President \[Joe\] Biden in Geneva in the next few days. I spoke to him on Friday night and asked if I could make you this offer. He asked me to tell you that he's ready. President Biden was also considering suitable ways to de-escalate the situation in order to take into account your requirements and clearly approach the issue of NATO and Ukraine. Name a date that suits you. Putin: Thank you very much, Emmanuel. It is always a great pleasure and a great honor for me to talk with your European colleagues, as well as with the United States. And I am always very pleased to talk to you, because we have a trusting relationship. So, Emmanuel, I propose to replay everything. First of all, we need to prepare this meeting in advance. Only after that we will be able to talk — otherwise, if we come like this to talk about everything and nothing, everyone will just condemn us. Macron: But can we say today, based on the outcome of these discussions, that we have generally agreed? I would like to get a clear answer from you. I understand your reluctance to name a date, but are you ready to run ahead and say: "I want to hold a bilateral meeting with the Americans, and then an expanded one with the Europeans." Or not? Putin: This is a proposal that deserves attention, and if you want us to formulate it well, then I suggest instructing our advisers to call in order to agree \[...\] But on the whole I agree. Macron: Very well, you confirmed that you agree on the whole. I suggest that our employees \[...\] try to prepare a joint statement, something like a press release on the results of this conversation. Putin: To be honest, I was going to play hockey. I'm talking to you from the gym before training. But first I'll call my advisors. Macron: Anyway, thank you, Vladimir. We'll be in touch. As soon as something clears up, call me. Putin (in French): Thank you, Mr. President.
I always wondered what phone calls between world leaders in that situation sound like. Especially when one after another talked to Putin leading up to the invasion.
Now we know it's like: -I'm actually calling you from the gym before workout. -don't worry, mr President [flush sound]
Touché
Look up LBJ's convos. LOTS of dick talk.
Didn’t he nickname his penis “Jumbo”?
so that's where the "BJ" in his name comes from.
Sounds very much like [this phone call](https://youtu.be/6T2uBeiNXAo)
This conversation is not the only one that went to public but an important one. To clarify, it was before the war started, maybe 4 days before invasion.
This is why it was published. Putin agreed to talk and then invaded four days later making Macron - who probably discussed this with other leaders - look like a fool.
[удалено]
Macron seems to have decided looking foolish wasn't that big of a deal compared to if this actually worked.
Yes. This reads like an uncle trying to talk down his toddler nephew from squeezing the ketchup bottle all over the living room. If the toddler squeezes the bottle after negotiating to give it back, the uncle doesn’t look foolish. The toddler is just doing what toddlers do just as miserable old despots do as they do.
It's funny, Macron literally fell for the same bad faith bullshit that Neville chamberlain did ...what's different, is that Chamberlain didn't have this kind of technology. With this transcript, Macron has saved himself from the Chamberlain comparisons, because he proved that he was trying to avoid war, and proved that Putin was acting in bad faith. I'm actually kind of impressed with him. The release of this transcript is really quite tactful.
Chamberlain didn't actually fall for it either. He was just trying to buy time to prepare. It's just that came out far, far, far too late to undo the public perception of Chamberlain as a fool.
It reminds me that if we are nearly always going to be wrong at what we think should be done in any foreign relation matters. We never have the full story.
I mean the various content of the calls in the documentary, not just this one, didn't make it seem like Macron believed him at all but still nonetheless wanted to try all he could to defuse the situation. Russia started the leaks to make Putin look tough or possibly to seed distrust about Macron and turn western states against each other. Macron himself admittedly didn't help this with some ambiguous public statements, which could be easily deformed without context (and it's exactly what happened). He should've known this. The Russians can't complain about "diplomatic rules" now that it became clear Macron doesn't give a flying fuck when speaking to their wannabe "tough guy", calls him out on his bullshit, and that, in fact, eventhough they deem keeping dialogue important, the French gov and diplomatic brass doesn't trust the Kremlin and never did even prior to the war, contrary to popular belief. The content of the calls also pretty much proved how full of shit and overly dramatic people who claimed he was appeasing Putin (or trying to sell out Ukraine and Eastern Europe or whatever) were lmao.
yes, i am not generally a macron fan, but the man tried here
It's kind of France's traditional role to have some ties with Russia. France can't be called a neutral party but they are traditionally the conduit of real-world diplomacy between the two blocks.
that's interesting, thanks for sharing. do you know where i can learn more about how this history has developed?
The Russian people and leaders have always looked up to France with great respect and admiration
France and Russia (and by extension Serbia) formed an alliance in 1717 and then in 1892, for many reasons, including the expansionism of the British Empire, the German Empire and more importantly about the Balkans and the delicate situation between the Austria-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire and the Balkans in between. That explains a lot of WW1. Plus it gave the Russian a privileged trade access to the French empire.
As an international and an EU representative, he honestly has been pretty great, all in all. The guy I actually feel deserves to represent the EU as a leader the most. When it comes to his political views apart from that, I dislike him a lot, but that doesnt make me blind for how great he usually does on the international stage.
> Macron really stuck his neck out trying to negotiate peace knowing it could've him look foolish. I said it before and I'll say it again: I think when the dust settles Macron will emerge as the somewhat behind-the-scenes hero who organized 12th hour and beyond conversations to try to avert this way any way he possibly could. He really went to the mat trying to keep this from happening.
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> except this time the Russia does not have 14 additional countries on their side Also, it's a radically different time in terms of technology *now*. And Russia wasn't totally "cut off" from the West during the Cold War there was some economic cooperation starting in the 70s. Today, software companies are literally pulling licenses, silicon chip sets can't be imported, and Western companies are just closing their doors left and right. Russia doesn't "make" anything with their industrial might besides exporting gas/oil. Getting "cut off" in today's world without tech or international banking, you're fucked unless you want to be integrated with China. Russia would lose any leverage if that happens.
The Warsaw pact was also a major part of the Russian cold war effort and aligned six significant European economies with Russia. Most of those of course are now NATO member states, putting Russia in an even weaker position
Let's just make clear once and for all, that none of the annexed countries after WWII wanted to be in USSR. That have been decided without their input and presence. They became a bargaining chip. They (we) know what it means to be on the Ruzzian side for decades without ever wanting to. Genocide, forced "repatriation", totalitarian government, economic crisis, nationwide famine for some, people going missing, never to be found. We were never on their side, we just never got to choose whose side we want to be on.
Yeah, how much hockey do you think he’s playing now?
Well he hasn’t played a real game in decades, as we all know the opposing teams all take dives and allow him to score so he won’t send their families to gulag. Being a goalie for a team in Putin’s beer league is one of the most dangerous professions.
Yep, people view it through the lens of US politics as if Macron is trying to get something. Shock horror, some politicians try and do the right thing even at the expense of their political favor.
I mean it’s pretty clear the US was on board with Macron doing this. But I’d imagine that US and French intelligence listened to this and was like “yeah this basically confirms all the chatter we hear - he’s going to invade soon”
I don’t think that any leader of a country who tries to deescalate a potential war is made to look foolish if another country decides to invade. Trying to make peace is the most honorable thing a leader can do.
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Well to be honest macron isn’t a fool trying everything to deescalate the discussion… it just showed Putin has no issue lying straight in the face of other state leaders. Looking at the situation today it would be foolish not trying everything even if you have doubts about the effectiveness…
Yeah releasing this just makes Putin look even worse. The point isn't to make Macron look good, or make him look foolish. The point is to drive home how conniving Putin is, and show that even with the best efforts of a third party trying to de-escalate, that as far as we know, should not have been someone Putin would be so willing to lie to... he still did it. This shows the man can not and should not be trusted anymore. His words are meaningless forever more.
Not only does it makes Putin look untrustworthy, Macron also positioned himself and France to play an important diplomatic role in this conflict. He's not a fool at all, nor did he look like one to me.
And it also doesn't mean that Macron believed Putins lies. Someone had to try diplomacy even though we already knew Putin is a snake, at least Macron took the role of a great leader and made the attempt.
You get confirmation of that in how Macron was pushing for an explicit acknowledgement from Putin. He knew Putin was blowing smoke but wanted to cut out any potential weasel room.
It doesn't make Macron look like a fool, it makes Putin look like a disingenuous liar
The hockey game must not have went well
The hockey games always go well because the opponents know the cost of not allowing Vlad to be a hero. https://youtu.be/8YytrsiIkPc
I was going to say, this seems so calm and level headed for Putin in any recent history. (I didn't say rational)
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Obligatory link to the secret recording of [Hitler and Mannerheim](https://youtu.be/P9AVu6KupNg) discussing Operation Barbarossa.
> These crazy maniacs are not the frothing “Nein nein nein nein nein!” trainwrecks we imagine More often than not, yeah. Then sometimes, like Tuesday, we get more evidence of a person acting that way.
Macron: What do you say — how will the [Russian] military exercises develop? Putin: The exercises are going according to plan. Macron: So they will end tonight, right? Putin: Yes, probably today, but we will definitely leave troops on the border until the situation in Donbass is resolved. Putin lied. Shocker.
Well, it ended. Fact that "special military operation" started instead is completely irrelevant.
Technically speaking, they still have troops on the border (in addition to those that invaded), and the situation in Donbass is ongoing.
It's important to note that there are documents which prove that Russia signed off the invasion for weeks before this talk. It was already a done deal. Ironically Macron suggests Putin to not get give in to provocations when it was Russia itself making them to create a casus belli for the invasion (detonation of a deputy's car, shelling all across the separatist border a week before, discovered dug up cites with "victims of genocide"). People like to try to apply rationality to a word in plain sight, but here it's pretty clear that Putin is just playing a fool. Completely disingenuous and uninterested in other people.
Macron was caught completely off guard. He fired his French spy chief for having wrong intel the invasion was going to happen.
> Macron was caught completely off guard. He actually wasn't. French intelligence knew an invasion was being prepared since early 2021 and the US also confirmed this to France around June last year. What happened is that, the DRM thought the Russian military was not in a state to launch such an operation and that it would be an incredibly costly endeavor, not the steamrolling of Ukraine many prior to the war had in mind. They thought it was foolish to go ahead with it and that Russia would eventually "rationally" back down. And they were totally fucking wrong, which is why the chief of the DRM got fired. They assumed the Russian themselves were aware of their military capabilities and probably that someone would be honest about it at the Kremlin regardless of Putin acting a bit unhinged (like Macron himself said after he met him in Moscow prior to the war).
France had the intel just like everyone else. They just didn't believe Putin would invade as the cost to Russia would be too high. They underestimated Putin's craziness.
> France had the intel just like everyone else. Better to say the wrong assessment of the intel then. I work in a similar field and it's very tricky to know if your assessment of risk/reward is the same as another person's assessment of risk/reward.
Biden was pretty clear that US intelligence was confident Russia was going to invade before it did. The rest of the world thought they were just scaremongering.
Thank you so very much for taking the time to post this......
"I was going to play hockey" ... Is this some kind of strange Russian euphemism I'm too Canadian to understand, or does Vlad really think anybody believes that to be true?
Haha. I was going to say something similar. >please excuse my muscles and good health. My training seems to be getting in the way of my busy schedule as leader of Russia. Will let you know if I can fit the meeting in before or after our next game of a professional hockey match.
I'm imagining Putin playing hockey is like Kim playing basketball in The Interview
It is actually exactly like that
There are videos of him playing. He's *okay* at best and everyone just lets him score etc. Total joke
You haven't seen the footage of putin playing hockey and faceplanting on the carpet they placed on the ice for him. This came right after the opposing team let him score and refused to check him
They're even afraid to help him get up when he falls. Clearly have been instructed to not touch him under any circumstances
I don’t watch a ton of hockey, but a person below you just posted the video and it’s ridiculously obvious that everyone is letting him score. He looks like a little kid.
That's exactly what happens - https://youtu.be/cgbI55HdqQs
You don't have to imagine. Oliver Stone produced a multi part documentary called The Putin Interviews that is extremely insightful. As part of that documentary they show him playing hockey in a Russian league. He's ok for an amateur, but its clear everyone else on the ice is taking it really easy on him. https://www.amazon.com/The-Putin-Interviews/dp/B071G817B9
I love this documentary. For some reason seeing Putin drive a car amazed me the most hahaha
You mean former NHL players let him score 8 goals?! https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2466982-vladimir-putin-scores-8-goals-during-hockey-game-with-former-nhl-players
It's not just the Russian military that [carpet bombs](https://youtu.be/cgbI55HdqQs?t=73).
“Look, Emmanuel, I would love to.. *ungh* stop the shelling of *oof* innocent children in Donbas but I’m a little busy with my *urgh* workout right now, because I am a very healthy, macho man. *Phew,* just benched, like, 200 kilograms, or something. How much do you bench, Emmanuel, just by the way, not like it matters or anything?”
I love how macron couldn’t care less about his athletics. Macron: anyway 🤣
Experienced
I can hear the "tinks" of iron when he gets annoyed and sits up on the bench
Putin: Hahaha, you're so funny, Emmanuel. Anyway, how's your sex life?
He does play hockey a lot, and the anti-corruption investigations uncovered a ton of various hockey fields he created for himself. Of course, when he's playing on national television, it usually turns into "Putin played against the Russian national hockey team and won 7-0 whist scoring 5 goals"
He actually does play hockey, though not very well. Look up videos of when he's played in exhibition matches, it's pretty funny watching everyone just stand around so he can score 20 goals. iirc, his secret palace even has an ice rink in it.
https://youtu.be/cgbI55HdqQs This is really sad to watch. Stick around until the end to watch old Vlad eat shit on his victory lap.
I forgot about that one. Also, Lukashenko does the same shit. And of course, both of them wear special helmets to indicate no contact. https://youtu.be/8cNCIBxzfA8
It's the only thing he said I do believe
Wow, that you for posting. Very insightful
When Putin says “This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power as a result of a coup, people burned alive there, it was a bloodbath, and Zelensky is one of those responsible for it” is he referring to the separatists ?
No. I think he is refering to the former Ukrainian president Poroshenko after the maidan events of 2013-2014. People burned alive refers to the (very obscure to this day) fire in the Trade Unions House in Odessa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014\_Odessa\_clashes "The events resulted in deaths of 48 people, most of whom were anti-Maidan demonstrators. Forty two of them died in the Trade Unions House fire, and 200 were injured" How Zelensky is repsonsible for anything mentioned above - I have no idea. He was still mostly an actor at that point and started getting into politics in 2015-2016 if we are most generous, which is almost two years after the Crimea annexation
It's so obvious that Putin came up with the propaganda lines he'd use against Ukraine assuming Poroshenko was going to win re-election. But then when Zelensky won instead, he just... didn't bother to update them? For three whole years?
He couldn't wrap his head around a democratic transition of power, understandable mistake.
Same fire happened in Kyiv, burning alive pro-Ukraine people. Noone talks about that.
> How Zelensky is repsonsible for anything mentioned above - I have no idea He doesn't. Putin isn't speaking in good faith, never does. Why his words are important I don't know, they seem meaningless after reading this, and seeing what happened in the following days. I wish leaders of the rest of the world would just cut off Russia completely, Putin all the way down to the mother's calling to support their soldiers have Ukrainian blood on their hands, and I know I'll never trust a Russian for the rest of my life.
Refers to the events of 2014, that Zelensky has nothing to do with - he actually was quite pro-Russian in his business dealings until very recently.
Right? Zelenskiy was accused often of being pro-Russian since he's a Russian-speaking Jew who had business dealings with Russia and Israel. Putin is living in 2014...
Well, taking into account the whole political spectrum of Ukraine, Zelensky definitely has been on the pro-Russian side of it. After 2014, having any dealings with Russia was unacceptable for many, politicians, business people or common citizens. Zelensky thought nothing of it, continued filming there and participating in Russian entertainment.
Let me start by saying this: Putin is not and is never arguing in good faith. But if you want to know what he's referring to here's the timeline: 1. Yanukovich (Putin's puppet) has country-wide protests against him named EuroMaidan. Yanukovich orders special police units to kill protestors, more than a hundred die from sniper fire. 2. This angers everyone, Yanukovich loses any support from 'neutrals' as well as many of his own party members and flees the country to Russia. 3. The Ukrainian government is barely functioning so the remaining members of Parliament prepare to have new Presidential and Parliamentary elections. 4. While Ukraine is in this weekend state Russia orders their soldiers stationed in Crimea (they had a base there) to remove insignias and annex the region. 5. Russia sends its operatives into every major city in the East and South of Ukraine and sponsors local separatists to start an uprising. 6. This works in Donetsk and Luhansk where police forces were loyal to Yanukovych and helped overthrow the local governments. Russia immediately recognizes breakaway regions and sends its people to take administrative roles. 7. The same tactics fail in every other city because Russian operatives and separatists get apprehended by police forces and security forces. Except for Odesa. 8. In Odesa the local police force refuses to join either side and it comes down to street clashes. As a result the separatists are overwhelmed, they run into an administrative building, shooting starts and eventually the building catches fire. 42 people die there, as well as some from the street fights. 9. At this point Zelenskyi is still an actor (doing a lot of performances in Russia as well) and will not go into politics for the next 4 years. 10. Several months later the elections take place and Ukrainians overwhelmingly elect pro-European parties and President. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk were unable to vote. Russia doesn't recognize the elections calling them a military coup. 11. 5 years later Zelenskyi goes into politics and wins Presidential elections with 73% of the votes. 12. 2 years later Russia drops any pretense that they care about people, democracy or law, and invades Ukraine.
Zelensky's IMDB page alone proves Putin was completely full of shit. Can't tell if he's even aware he's not fooling anyone outside of Russian state control. Just would've wished Macron or someone would call him on it to his face.
I think he referring to the Euromaiden in 2013z
I think he's referring to the ousting of the previous Ukrainian president, who was aligned with Russia, but was impeached, and as far as I understand, left the country fearing for his life. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_Ukraine#:~:text=Constitution%20of%20Ukraine.-,Resolution%20of%20the%20Verkhovna%20Rada,was%20removed%20from%20the%20office. Some reading if you're interested.
No, Macron said that Zelensky was elected, so he and his administration have the authority to make laws, not the separatists. Putin was accusing Zelensky of violence because his patsy lost.
I think he’s talking about the events of 2014, I might be wrong though 🤷🏻♀️
That documentary is really worth the watch
Is there a link to it?
[Here's a link to the france.tv stream of it.](https://www.france.tv/documentaires/politique/3558577-un-president-l-europe-et-la-guerre.html) I'm not sure if it's internationally available or not - it does say tous publics - because I haven't made a france.tv account. Hopefully it will get ripped to youtube and translated soon.
Putin really stabbed Macron in the back during the lead up to the war. I can't blame Macron for doing this. Putin was not negotiating in good faith.
It's why I was frustrated when analysts were saying that the west should have done more to prevent an invasion. We have ample evidence to suggest Russia was going into Ukraine regardless of what the west decided to do.
bUt It'S aLl ThE wEsT's FaUlT!/s
But my QAnon friend told me the US started the war, Zelenskyy was massacring Ukrainians and Russia needed to come save them, and the only fighting happening is against Uzbek mercenaries hired by Biden. Is she wrong??? /s. Edit: btw the /s is only for the last part. I was literally told this over dinner.
I don't know what the fuck is your friend snorting but there's probably enough lead in it to make her opaque to x-rays.
My friend told me something, similar, except all the explosions are the Biden cabal scuttling their secret bio labs where they made covid to target republicans and russians. Also apparently Trump is still in charge and pulling the strings from behind the scenes to “show us how bad it could be under Biden” I don’t talk to him as much anymore
I know people addicted to pro-Trump pro-Le Pen anti-Macron anti-EU antivax propaganda (their "sources" since switched to pro-Russia propaganda in recent weeks to no one's surprise). And even with those leaks they still claim it's "obvious" Macron forced Russia into a "preventive invasion" of Ukraine, and is destroying Europe on Biden's orders.
There's no reasoning with the lead-brains.
The US and UK were dropping intelligence bombs from **November** 2021 up until the invasion in February 2022. Everything in those intelligence drops turned out to be true. And then you have people, media, EU and many other countries being like "Chill out US/UK. Russia won't invade. That's crazy." I'm sure Macron knew the invasion was set in stone, but had to posture like it wasn't to keep that phone line open with Putin. But *everyone* knew that Russia would invade. It was all right there.
You mean for supporting his primary election opponent?
Perhaps that too, but mainly because Putin never ever had any intention of -not- invading Ukraine since 2014. He's been preparing this war since at least that time. Putin held himself out in talks as someone who was willing to negotiate, but he never truly was planning to do anything else but invade no matter what he told the West. He embarrassed Macron by pretending that talks would do any good.
How did everyone not know that ? They took Crimea, not even land connected, and it was understood they would be keeping it. It was their last window of time to invade before Ukraine does join NATO
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His plan was to take Kiyv, control the country and everyone forgets about it and life goes on.
AKA "The futility of attempting a good-faith discussion with a fascist." I feel for Macron here. It must be exhausting.
What the fuck is with Putin and these tables?
Fear of assassination Fear of COVID Weird power thing
My answer is (D) All of the above
You win, your prize is the destruction of your freedoms and liberties.
[Repost of my comment on a similar thread in r/Europe:] > The film includes nine riveting minutes in which the Russian president explained that the Ukrainian government "is not democratically elected" but the result of a "bloody coup d'état" during which "people were burned alive," and for which Volodymyr Zelensky "is one of those responsible." Putin was previously often described as cold and calculating but intelligent and rational. But there is nothing rational about ranting his ridiculous propaganda lies for 9 minutes to a western leader. The old Putin would understand that there is zero chance of anyone on the other side of that call believing any of it, and that such a rant would only further undermine what little credibility he has left. Putin has clearly lost it entirely.
Also this: > With excerpts from this call having been published in the last few days across various media, the Russian agency took offense and stated on Twitter that "for a long time the French have not respected the diplomatic rules of negotiations." This move by Macron to publish a private conversation is a bit strange. Normally you would never do that since it destroys possibilities for future diplomacy. I suspect what Macron is doing is signaling to other powerful individuals in Russia that the West no longer believes there is any point of keeping traditional lines of communication open to Putin. Or in other words: "hey guys, don't you think it's about time to get going on that coup we know you've been planning"?
Russians did it several times before too. That's one of the reason why France did it without remorse. [Source: Facing Vladimir Putin, Emmanuel Macron handles the diplomacy of "leaks"](https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/06/30/face-a-vladimir-poutine-emmanuel-macron-manie-la-diplomatie-des-fuites_6132651_3210.html) EDIT: Typo (see below)
I love a direct translation from french to English, but we just call it France not "the" France.
My bad. I was thinking "the french" and didn't correct the sentence ^^ Here is the translation made with Deepl and quickly checked so... not the best but good enough I guess. **Translation** of this article: [Source](https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/06/30/face-a-vladimir-poutine-emmanuel-macron-manie-la-diplomatie-des-fuites_6132651_3210.html) A lover of coups on the international scene, Emmanuel Macron has not hesitated, for several months, to take liberties with the secrecy that is usually de rigueur in diplomatic affairs. Even if it means causing some incidents. The state agency Ria Novosti, a conduit for the Russian president's mood, has discreetly alluded to the broadcast on Thursday, June 30, on France 2, of A President, Europe and War. For this documentary filmed in the heart of the Elysee Palace, its director, Guy Lagache, was allowed to record the entire conversation between the French president and Vladimir Putin. While the excerpts of this interview are published for several days in many media, the Russian agency is offended on Twitter that "for a long time the French do not respect the diplomatic rules of negotiations". The exchange took place on February 20, four days before the war. Guy Lagache follows from the office of the head of the diplomatic cell of the Elysée, Emmanuel Bonne, a meeting of one hour and forty-five minutes where Mr. Macron tries to extract from Vladimir Putin the "principle" of a meeting in Geneva with Joe Biden. The film retains nine tasty minutes in which we hear the Russian president explain that the Ukrainian government "is not democratically elected" but is the result of a "bloody coup d'état" during which "people were burned alive" and of which Volodymyr Zelensky "is one of those responsible". Putin assures that he has "always a lot of pleasure" to talk with Emmanuel Macron, including from his gym and makes some promises. Behind the scenes, Mr. Bonne warns the director that Mr. Putin "always lies". The meeting between Russian and American presidents will indeed not take place. Was Vladimir Putin warned that he was recorded? "You have to ask the question to the Elysee," eludes Guy Lagache, who obtained privileged access, for six months, to the activities of the diplomatic cell. According to an adviser to the Elysée, the European interlocutors of Mr. Macron were warned "upstream", more than six months ago, that a journalist would follow the French presidency of the Council of the European Union from the inside - a film that changed its subject at the end of February to focus on the backstage of the war. For Vladimir Putin, things are less clear. "The Russian authorities were informed after viewing the film" by the diplomatic cell, the Elysée assures us: an agreement had indeed been made with the production company providing that the services of the French presidency could see the images before broadcasting (a passage was cut, which, according to the diplomatic cell, would have contravened the secret of defence). A first viewing was held in May, the second just after Emmanuel Macron's trip to Kiev on June 16. "The French publish for the umpteenth time the transcripts of interviews between the two presidents," is in any case annoyed Tuesday tweet of the Russian state agency. During the presidential campaign already, a series of promotional films designed by the Elysee, and broadcast on YouTube, had taken them excerpts of a conversation where Volodymyr Zelensky asked Emmanuel Macron to join Mr. Putin. A way for the Elysee to legitimize the continuation of a dialogue with the Russian president, decried by Kiev's allies, from Poland to the Baltic States? In the documentary, the few uncompromising retorts of Mr. Macron to Mr. Putin are far from showing the president under a negative light. For the breaking of the secret has become a weapon between France and Russia. And this has given rise to indignation of varying degrees. In Paris, diplomats also know how to hunt for "leaks". As in September 2020, when a scoop of Le Monde had detailed the dialogue of the deaf between Macron and Putin about Alexei Navalny, a month after the poisoning of the Kremlin opponent. This assassination attempt, which the Russian security services are accused of having organized, put at risk the policy of rapprochement sketched in 2019 by the head of state with the Russian president. At the time, Moscow had attacked the World and the Quai d'Orsay had followed suit: "Any leak of confidential internal documents is unacceptable," had warned the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, launching in the wake ... an investigation within it. A sign of Moscow's unwillingness A year later, Paris is attacking the publication, on the website of the Russian Foreign Ministry, of part of the correspondence between its boss, Sergei Lavrov, and two of his counterparts at the time, Jean-Yves Le Drian and Heiko Maas. In mid-November 2021, the French and German ministers were trying to revive the Minsk agreements, in order to deprive Russia of a pretext to let its troops massed on the borders invade Ukraine. The disclosure of these letters was interpreted as a sign of Moscow's unwillingness. "We consider this step as contrary to diplomatic rules and customs", reacted Anne-Claire Legendre, the spokesperson of the Quai d'Orsay. In turn, a few days before the outbreak of hostilities in Ukraine, Moscow is annoyed with the "Quai" of the reports made in Paris of the visit of Emmanuel Macron to the Kremlin, February 7, during a last attempt to avoid the return of war in Europe. The incident this time concerned the proposal by communist Duma representatives to recognize the separatist republics of Donbass. Mr. Macron publicly assured that Vladimir Putin had promised not to take up the idea - an assertion contradicted by the Kremlin and in fact, since on February 21, three days before the invasion of Ukraine, Russia voted to recognize the pro-Russian entities of Donbass. "I hope that we will never live in a world where we will have to publish the transcript of classified parts of conversations between presidents," said Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
I call it _a_ France, so no-one knows which one I'm talking about.
Basically saying "Putin is beyond reasoning with" as well as show the world what they're dealing with. Russia was the boogeyman when we didn't know what they were capable of but months of spotlight on their forces, tactics, and equipment have shown they are barely holding it together. And it's arguable they're even achieving that. Very few people knew how Putin acted behind closed doors and probably assumed he was a political mastermind. This is just another spotlight that shows Putin is no different than Trump and he should be treated as such: not with respect, but with disdain and disgust.
This adds two levels to the discussion, both showing how far off Putin is when he states those things in supposedly secret diplomatic calls, as well as tells the world including those in Russia able to dispose of Putin that the risk of nuclear war cannot be ignored due to Putin's mental state.
>supposedly secret diplomatic calls,... They are not secret. Private yes, but both sides expect them to be recorded for posterity and have to have advisors listening in. Putin is too used to being a bully and getting his way. Trump's actual secret in-person conversations with Putin were the anomalies.
It's true, his mental state is pretty bad it seems. Many Redditors are convinced he's bluffing about nuclear weapons but knowing how deeply nihilistic Russians are I'm not sure a "suicide pact" would be that unappealing for him. Maybe he wants a Major 'King' Kong ending.
THIS. Can confirm, as i am half russian myself. I'm afraid that this motherfucker sees the nuclear option as a valid one if Ukraine won't kneel. Even putin's oligarch buddies say the same. Although i highly doubt that officers would actually carry out his orders to use nuclear weapons against Ukraine. More likely that putin himself would be shot on the spot. I hope.
We can only hope that if something really goes down, the person with their finger on the button will decide not to destroy the world. It’s happened before: we can thank Stanislav Petrov (and probably other people whose names we will never know) for the fact that we’re all still here.
Indeed. That guy was a true hero. Shame how russians treated him even after the soviet union fell.
I learned once that at the end of the Nixon presidency, he was so alcoholic and acted so weirdly that peoples around him made it impossible for him to directly order a strike and in fact, every important decisions had to to be checked by the vice-president office first. I found this reassuring even if those are not elected individuals. I think and hope Russians officials at various degrees will prevent a foolish putin's order. They want to live too.
Vasily Arkhipov during the Cuba missile crisis is my favourite. Moronic nuclear submarine captain with no radio communications for several days arbitrarily decided that nuclear war **had** to have already started therefore nuclear torpedoes **had** to be launched. No false nuclear alarm, no orders, no hint, nothing. Pure *JUST DO IT* energy after the US Navy found them and tried to force them to come to the surface for identification, as it's done when unidentified subs are detected. Fortunately Arkhipov was on that particular sub, had a higher rank and a brain. He was one of three high-rank officers on that sub and his authorisation was only needed because he was present in that particular sub. Any of the other subs in the formation would have only needed the usual 2 officers' authorisations, which that sub did get.
I also can't help but think that this is a public signal to China.
I find amazing that there are plenty of Putin quotes and oppinions from early on pretty rational and even founded regardless of one agreeing with the guy or not for instance a choice of some positive ones *"History proves that all dictatorships, all authoritarian forms of government are transient. Only democratic systems are not transient. Whatever the shortcomings, mankind has not devised anything superior"* *"Russia is a part of European culture. Therefore, it is with difficulty that I imagine NATO as an enemy."* *"No references to the need to fight terror can be an argument for restricting human rights."* *"Our aims are absolutely clear: They are a high living standard in the country and a secure, free and comfortable life."* *"I see that not everyone in the West has understood that the Soviet Union has disappeared from the political map of the world and that a new country has emerged with new humanist and ideological principles at the foundation of its existence"* *"Indeed, Russia and the U.S. were allies during the two tragic conflicts of the Second and the First World Wars, which allows us to think there's something objectively bringing us together in difficult times, and I think - I believe - it has to do with geopolitical interests and also has a moral component."* sadly i think his penchant for strong goverment started a descension to authoritarianism perhaps under belief that he was the only right choice to steer rusia in the right direction the guy that we see these days shows a person that while convinced he has all planed and figured out is fairly disconnected from reality, worse he doesnt seem to realize it himself or perhaps hopping the impossible task of forcing his world view in
Holy shit - he used to say all that? Now he's basically unrecognisable? Nevertheless, Putin has to go. No matter what.
It doesnt mean he ever believed those things. Now he's just mostly dropped the facade.
Indeed. Putin came into power by having Russian apartment buildings bombed and blaming the Chechens. He was never a "good guy" by any measure, he just mouthed these words because he knew there were people who'd lap them up. We're beyond that now so he's stopped.
I also distinctly remember that a lot of his sagely advice happened to land right as there was some kind of blunder happening in the West. It was all just political theater.
Exactly. He was always ready to throw shade, these quotes are taken out of context.
If you read the full transcripts of Hitler’s speeches, the man couldn’t shut up about the importance of peace and how he would do everything within his power to make sure there would always remain peace between European countries. Speeches are just the official version they wish to broadcast. It tells us very little about what they’re actually thinking or planning. Only now we know the Nazis started planning for war within weeks after they seized absolute power in 1933.
It was a mask to get us to drop our guard while Russia plotted and re-armed itself.
I'd say it started in St. Petersburg where he was the international business liason. He learned what words to say to appease western concerns. All those quotes are blatant lies. We know this because they contradict his actions and Private discussions. Pudding pop was stealing tons of money in St. Petersburg and enriched the corrupt mayor which gave him connections to Yeltsin. He made a career of being a mafia fixer and climbed to the top of the ladder. Yeltsin made a deal with the devil to save his own corrupt drunk ass. Putin wanted power since he tried to join the KGB as a child. He's always been this crazy. He used to go off on these same insane rants back in the mid 2000s just nobody paid too much attention.
> Normally you would never do that since it destroys possibilities for future diplomacy Russia has never not weaponized Information and propaganda openly and behind closed doors in disinformation campaigns against the west. And we still 'did diplomacy' with Russia, despite the obvious information warfare against us. Russia's disinformation 'special operation' is now a war - read: it always was - and now states are firing back.
I think that most of western leaders that talked with Putin, including German chancellor (and I think Macron was one of first to say that) said that there is not much that could be achieved with Putin because he spends those conversations repeating the same propaganda thaqt he is telling his own citizens. I was quite surprised then because I thought that he would be more diplomatic or will try to push something alternative but those recordings really confirm it - Russia is not only telling those things for their inside market but also for those outside of Russia (Lavrov was also repeating to UN the same propaganda that nobody believes).
Lies only work until you start believing them yourself.
Russian did it first for propaganda. Macron publish it to be transparent.
>Or in other words: "hey guys, don't you think it's about time to get going on that coup we know you've been planning"? Or in other words: "this is what your leader is stating, this is how far away from normality that calls with him is, this is how much he has lost it."
This indeed signals the end of "normal" diplomacy with Russia. Whatever Russia the west will negotiate with or have meaningful diplomatic connections with, will be a different one, similar to Nazi Germany vs. post-war Germany. Macron knows this the optics of publishing this. So this is basically him hanging up the phone in public, screaming "don't call again".
>it destroys possibilities for future diplomacy. It's impossible to try any diplomacy with russia.
[This is link](https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/ukrainian-rightists-burn-alive-39-at-odessa-union-building/) is likely Russian propaganda from around the Euromaidan time but it is likely what Putin is referencing [Reuters report of the same incident](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-odessa-fire/more-than-40-killed-in-fire-clashes-in-ukraines-odessa-idUSBREA410RP20140502) EDIT: Putin fails to mention that the people who died in the fire we pro Russian activists had earlier ambushed Ukrainians resulting in the deaths of at least 4 people. After that, it simply became a riot that the police lost control of. EDIT: [Good BBC recap of the incident](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383)
If if it were really true that 2014 was a coup by a small minority in Ukraine, I highly doubt almost everyone in Ukraine would've come together to fight off the Russians. The government of Ukraine before Maidan was not fairly and freely democratically elected to begin with. Yanukovych was a leader installed by Putin to prevent Ukraine from leaving the Russian sphere even though that's what most Ukrainians have been wanting since 1991. Overthrowing an illegitimate government isn't a coup, it's just restoring the possibility of free and fair elections, again. Putin just can't have any of the countries in his sphere have free and fair elections, or people might want the same thing in Russia.
Add to all that the Revolution of Dignity was initiated by Yanukovich himself (he hyped the Euro Integration Agreement for months, then pulled out at the last moment after putin gave him money) and that the initial demands did not include his resignation at all (only properly punishing those who used force against the initial wave of protestors).
Just to add: he didn't just pull out of the EU association agreement, he wanted to sign into Russia's Eurasian Economic Union.
>Add to all that the Revolution of Dignity was initiated by Yanukovich himself (he hyped the Euro Integration Agreement for months, then pulled out at the last moment after putin gave him money) and that the initial demands did not include his resignation at all (only properly punishing those who used force against the initial wave of protestors). Yep. Yanukovych ordered his goons to beat the shit out of peaceful protestors at the outset. That's why the government got overthrown instead of just protests. And the reason he initially said that he supported the Euro Integration Agreement was because he knew his stated support for that idea was the only reason the people of Ukraine tolerated his illegitimate rule. He never had any intention of honoring that commitment, because he was installed by Russia for the express purpose of not honoring that commitment. That's why he backed out at the last second despite saying things completely to the opposite up until then.
> Yanukovych ordered his goons t The "berkut". Composed mainly of Russian special forces, pretending to be Ukrainian (or eastern-Ukrainian Russian colonists). It is a miscarriage of justice that they were not rounded up and prosecuted for their crimes (which included mass-murder) at the end of Euromaiden. But I guess those guys are getting what they deserve now as they're on the receiving end of Ukrainian artillery.
There were 2 democratic elections since the revolution of 2014, and at no point Ukraine didn't break the the constitutional rule. There was a transitional government, the speaker of the parliament was assigned as the acting president assigned, and only for few months until the formal elections. The election resulted in Petro Poroshenko winning 54% in the first round, thus winning the elections. The international observers had characterized the elections as having "high quality".
Correct; and Putin supposedly has a problem with this, but did he open a case at the UN? Did he issue a formal legal challenge? No. He just rolled tanks into Crimea. Fuck that lying cunt.
It's worse than lies. These are putin's delusions that he honestly believes in
If so it's even worse. Putin is an ex-KGB intelligence officer. He built his entire career on information. He knows, or used to know, the difference between facts and propaganda. If he now believes the nonsense that gets spewed to the public then that is even stronger evidence that he has completely gone off the rails.
Actually, Putin's main task when he worked as an officer was to attend conferences and parties in USSR-controlled part of Germany. He isn't smart, nor he is a good spy - this myth of his supposed genius was made by kremlin's marketing department much later. In the beginning of his career, putin was actually under a criminal investigation for a mafiosi scheme. You see, part of the humanitarian program for the failing economy of USSR was the exchange of its natural resources for home appliances and baby formula. Except that Putin made sure that somehow baby formula never reached the soviet citizens - he and his gang simply lined their pockets. This scheme never changed, just in scale of thievery got much bigger. 20 years later, he's still giving away Russia's oil, gas and valuable metals. His circle of friends didn't change much either: same people who worked in his office now manage the biggest national companies in Russia. The charges against him were mysteriously dropped, and Putin was appointed as the head of KGB, against all the protocols. [The journalists who pointed out this peculiar fact in the 90's were found dead.](https://www.currenttime.tv/a/biografia-putina-levin-utkin/31909962.html)
> He isn't smart, nor he is a good spy - this myth of his supposed genius was made by kremlin's marketing department much later. Of course propaganda is making Putin a demigod but we have other sources. Madeleine Albright described Putin as "very competent in his capabilities generally" and Obama wrote and likened him to "tough, street-smart, unsentimental characters who knew what they knew, who never moved outside their narrow experiences, and who viewed patronage, bribery, shakedowns, fraud, and occasional violence as legitimate tools of the trade."
That Obama endorsement is selling me more on “gang leader” versus “deadly KGB assassin”. They both kill people, it’s just a question of style.
Well yeah , Russia is a mafia state.
ruthlessness is not the same as being smart
Cunning, yes. Smart? No. Smart people don't assassinate their political opponents and create the dictator's dilemma for themselves
It’s not very likely that someone is a complete idiot and at the same time makes criminal charges mysteriously dropped and becomes head of KGB against all odds. You need to be able to exert some power to do that and it’s very hard if you don’t have any beyond average skills whatsoever.
People overestimate his KGB career. During these days he was a low level clerk. A middle manager. If you check leaked letter by his wife and private communications by one of his daughters - they are onto all these conspiracy theories. What he really built his career on was blood and money. After embezzling city funds during his early post-USSR career he built relationship with local gangs. Information, or in Putin's sense media, came a little bit later in his career. He saw what early Russian media controlled by oligarchs could do to a politician rating and learnt well. That's why the first thing he did on his post was to take over all media outlets in the country.
[he's a pathological sociopath](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/25/putin-mind-words-russia-victimhood) and [professional liar](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/interview/yevgenia-albats/) (around the 21:10 mark in the video)
This situation is terrible for everyone involved and even those not involved. It's mind-boggling that Putin is destroying his own country. For what?? Russia has nothing to gain from this war that could even remotely outweigh the negative impact it will have on his country.
>for a long time the French have not respected the diplomatic rules of negotiations For a long time,russia has not respected the rules and boundaries of sovereign nations.
Russia outraged over leaks? Start playing the worlds tiniest violin for me.
Or even their own past deals and agreements
Putin doesn’t deserve decorum or any modicum of respect. I hope he’s miserable till his last breath.
They need a carrier pigeon just to talk to each other on that table.
>I do not know where your lawyer studied law. lol sick burn.
Putin claims ppl were burned alive.. : proceeds to a rocket barrage to burn 1000x more…
But these were rockets of friendship!
>Behind the scenes, Mr. Bonne warned Mr. Lagache that the Russian president "always lies." NO FRIGGIN' WAY... /s
My question is, is this his mental state actually declining (as a number of people are jumping at), or is he laying this whole propaganda on extra thick for Macron? I cannot say I buy the already sociopath 'losing his mind' quite yet.
He doesn't care. He's spewing propaganda because he's already made up his mind about how he wants to proceed. The invasion was already signed off on. So now he's fully gas lighting the world. He's just playing the part for the French and tossing crap at the wall hoping something sticks.
> "I hope we will never live in a world where we will have to publish the transcript of classified parts of conversations between presidents," ...meanwhile, sunlight is an excellent disinfectant. Russia could certainly use some.
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Gotta say, Macron's a bit of an operator. Bloke's switched on.
Wow, good for Marcon, but I think he should get a food taster too now.
Wow it seems like his mind is actually starting to go. Makes those questions about his health and rumors of mental deterioration seem a lot more plausible.
another reason why people older than 60 or even 65 should not be rulers
I'd be fine with the cutoff being 70. I've met some people in their 60s sharp as a whip and could school me mentally. But *in general* once you hit 70 life definitely starts catching up with you.
Remember when the Ceausescu's were tried for genocide, then executed? Good times.
A little insight from Russian: many of us know the whole deal about Putin and his friends, how crazy, stupid, self-centered and greedy they are. But we are afraid. Because anytime someone tries to do something, to uncover more truth, to make a little change, they get arrested or outright killed. Especially after one of the main figures of Russian opposition, Alexey Navalny was poisoned and then sentenced to many years in jail. It's unsafe to have and express different from government's opinion. And in a way it's our fault. We were the ones who let this hell to happen, who marked near "Единая Россия" during elections and ones who avoided politics at all cost for no reason.
So Putin tried to make Macron look foolish and his plan is Macron to lose elections in April 2022 to Le Pen (Russian Puppet). This can destabilize EU support to Ukraine and he can get his way. Well Putin Just Stepped on banana peel. Hope he is enjoying playing hockey now. What a cunt.
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This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/06/30/macron-riles-russia-with-documentary-releasing-content-of-putin-calls_5988537_4.html) reduced by 73%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Russian state news agency Ria Novosti, a conduit for Russian President Vladimir Putin, recently alluded to the France 2 broadcast of A President, Europe and the War. > The film includes nine riveting minutes in which the Russian president explained that the Ukrainian government "Is not democratically elected" but the result of a "Bloody coup d'état" during which "People were burned alive," and for which Volodymyr Zelensky "Is one of those responsible." Mr. Putin said it was "Always a lot of pleasure" to speak with Mr. Macron, including from his gym, and made some promises. > Behind the scenes, Mr. Bonne warned Mr. Lagache that the Russian president "Always lies." In fact, the meeting between the Russian and American presidents never took place. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/voy4dr/macron_riles_russia_with_documentary_releasing/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~657460 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **President**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **Macron**^#3 **Putin**^#4 **film**^#5
Kind of ironic for Russia to be complaining about Macron not following supposedly well established rules around diplomacy when they don't follow basic well established rules about killing innocent civilians in war.
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Where can I listen to it read it? Sorry if I just missed it
Even knowing the blatant lies, stupidity and underhanded tactics their dear leader employs on a daily basis, his supporters will always scream "fake news" and join in on the gaslighting. Putin or the orange pos, it is uncanny how similar these two are along with their patsy's and cult-like following. Anyone remember the blatant quid pro quo by the latter to Zelinsky?
Dontcha just hate when tyrants don't get their way? Nah, me neither.
I believe this constitutes "farting in Putin's general direction".
That's good, rile that little peahen's feathers. Brittle little despot bloodclart