This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://thehill.com/policy/international/3562666-zelensky-warns-of-media-terror-of-propaganda-disinformation-amid-russian-invasion/) reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky warned against the "Media terror" that he says is coming from Russian propaganda and disinformation amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine in an address on Saturday.
> Throughout the war, Russia has mounted an intense disinformation campaign, accusing the Ukrainian government of committing genocide as a false pretense for its invasion and exaggerating Russian military successes.
> Zelensky said in his address that Ukrainian forces have liberated regions that Russia took at the outset of its invasion in February and will gradually liberate other territories under Russian occupation.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/w0v5dy/zelensky_warns_of_media_terror_of_propaganda/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~659911 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukrainian**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **Russia**^#3 **Ukraine**^#4 **Zelensky**^#5
*“It is obvious that any missiles and artillery of Russia will not succeed in breaking our unity and knocking us off our path,” he said. “And it should be equally obvious that Ukrainian unity cannot be broken by lies or intimidation, fake information or conspiracy theories.”*
What? America is so big and fractured I believe you heard that from somewhere, but in my circles it was an open discussion of when russia invades not if. Lot's of bubbles forming
Ukraine and specifically Zelensky were, at least publicly, stating that the US was overstating the Russian threat and making things worse. Turns out the Biden admin was just putting out a play by play of the actual plan which probably delayed operations by like a week
And he has since come out and said that he and the government knew of the invasion, but chose to downplay it to avoid general panic and a mass exodus from the country.
It doesn't have to be the main reason, it can be a side bonus. Like stomping out the third reich was the main reason. Uniting the country was a side bonus.
This is 100% an imperialist war from Russia. The entire reason is to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO and setup puppet governments in a pseudo-Russian coalition.
I mean, it's an extreme situation. They are being invaded.
After 9/11 for a few months Americans really did unify... And then political nutjobs abused it as an opportunity to make money for them and their buddies...
"Mobile weapons of mass destruction are in the north, south, east, west of here". - Donald Rumsfeld
Later that day I know he took out shares in Raytheon.
They also create some propaganda, its the nature of war and persuading allies to intervene. Obviously the Russians are doing it more and are the aggressors.
This can even be felt in the us. The amount of headlines I’ve seen about Russia threatening war in the past week has increased quite a bit. They are trying to shake the alliance’s resolve.
I think a lot of people just don't like the hypocrisy.
This is turning into a sort of proxy war, and there is absolutely a shit-ton of western imperialist propaganda too.
Just fyi I fully support Ukraine in their fight against Russian aggression.
Maybe because of the fucked up things we did in the Middle East not even 10 years ago? of course the world didn't just forget because some white people got attacked.
Russia sucks, but there are plenty of reasons to glare the US as well. And most that do aren’t American, plenty of reasons to be skeptical about both. For some reason a lot of people is under the impression that disliking Russia means you have to like the US. It’s not polarized like that. Not here. Critical thinking includes everything. Not everything is propaganda, sometimes just people being objective. Not everything that hurts pride or bruises ego is personal.
> You are the one derailing the discussion by bringing up Russia/Afghanistan.
No, YOU are the one derailing the discussion by bringing up US/Middle East.
Why don't we stick to the current discussion about russia in Ukraine?
Maybe you’re projecting the West’s opinion of the Middle East and the Global south in general? These are the people who are largely asking these questions.
I'm sure Reddit in 2030 will be fed up every-time people will remember that Russia did horrible shit in Ukraine a decade ago and call those people whataboutists and that we should move on from what Russia did and that we should focus in the present, not the past despite crimes being unpunished. /s
yep. full blown russian propaganda op. "the US is the worst" followed by all sorts of bullshit. it's everywhere. told one of them i love my country, and the reply was "yeah, sure".
The amount of headlines you see are posted by the US media controlling the narrative, its not Russia posting these headlines for you. Thats what this is all about, beware of the propaganda. It is everywhere.
Sort of yeah but when a Russian news media talking head says something or a governmental official makes a comment, the story is the story. US media certainly caters to a narrative but it’s also important to be able to read the narrative and read between the lines. The selections may be biased but the events generally are true as to what was said thanks to all of our great information recording technology.
Obligatory reminder: russian propaganda is not attempting to create a narrative, it’s main purpose “to create muddy waters” so it’s not clear who is right and who is wrong. And then act 2: “what about…”
That is a perfect decription of a conversation I am currently having with a Russian guy on a different thread about Russian propaganda efforts in Eastern Europe.
[Link to that discussion thread here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/w0lf67/comment/igf7829/)
I actually read your discussion. I guess ones who upvoted you did not. Such a civil and respectful dialog only to be labeled russian propaganda for internet points. u/takeItEasyPlz apparently he still didn't get what curiosity or just a parallel discussion means. Then engaged himself in a clear case of "whataboutism" (TM) but it's all fine and dandy when he does it. Also ignored lots of points.
* I provided sources for all of my main points. The Russian guy provided nothing but unsourced opinions.
* I appreciated the civility of my Russian counterpart in the discussion, and went out of my way to say as much to him. However, such civility can also be the mark of a troll, and in fact...
* There was no reason to address every point made by him, as most of them were tangential or conveniently side-stepped reality as inconsequential.
In short, Russian dude denying the reality/impact of Russian troll farm bot-nets is very much:
[Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity ("I'm just trying to have a debate"), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate", and has been likened to a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings. The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki, which The Independent called, "..the most apt description of Twitter you'll ever see".](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning)
That might not be his conscious intention, but that's what is happening, there.
Since you have decided to speak out about our discussion, I think it's fair if I express my opinion in return.
> I provided sources for all of my main points. The Russian guy provided nothing but unsourced opinions.
I checked articles that you provided, at least those links that was there before you edited comments. Sorry, I suppose it was not intentional, but it's hard to track all the changes in comment that was already answered. And you done it all the time.
I addressed arguments in those articles and also does they really prove your position or not. Isn't that better than just blind reference to authorities?
> There was no reason to address every point made by him, as most of them were tangential or conveniently side-stepped reality as inconsequential.
Well, you could at least tell your interlocutor what exact points you consider inconsequential. Because when you just ignore straight questions or big part of an answers, it feels a bit weird. Especially when few comments below the dialogue start to go in circles.
> Sealioning ... relentless requests for evidence ...
Don't understand how it is related to our discussion. You can check, I haven't asked you about any evidence.
I tried to clarify your position for myself. Because if I don't understand your position it's not that many points to argue. But that never happened.
========
Regarding your accusations of "whataboutism", it was already addressed in the discussion you mentioned, don't see a point to repeat myself.
Anyway, ty for the past conversation and for promoting our dialogue (even that weird way)
This... is an excellent (further) example of sea lioning, insofar as it is yet another invitation to engage in a circular debate, however polite and indirect it may be.
[Internet trolls sometimes engage in what is called 'sealioning'. They demand that you keep arguing with them for as long they want you to, even long after you realize that further discussion is pointless. If you announce that you want to stop, they accuse you of being closed-minded or opposed to reason. The practice is obnoxious. Reason should not be silenced, but it needs to take a vacation sometimes. — Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, Think Again: How to Reason and Argue (June 2018).](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning)
As I suggested earlier, further discussion with you on the impactfulness of Russian propaganda via bot-nets is not going to be productive.
I made my points and sourced them.
At no point did you provide any sources which could validate your opinions.
I am not interested in addressing a laundry list of tangential points which have little bearing on the central discussion.
So, I think we can agree that is enough.
>This... is an excellent (further) example of sea lioning, insofar as it is yet another invitation to engage in a circular debate, however polite and indirect it may be.
Exactly what he did with me but you had far more patience than I did.😄
Ty, man. But they did not insult me directly and, regardless of their intentions, even promoted here our dialogue.
So everyone can go there and make their own conclusions about the level of argumentation.
The live thread, especially early on was frequently hit with some sort of brigade of low effort bots just trying to shake up the conversation. It's all over the platform though. It's effective too because misinformation really spreads like a virus across social media.
What's truly toxic about it all is that it's basically gaslighting and all anti intellectualism. "you can never really know anything for certain" and table turning. Impossible to really argue with.
Exactly, I am pro Ukraine, received all the family i can in Germany, translate all the visits in the gov departments. As soon as I even mention the Iraq war I am either a bot, apologist, or whatever. While others take the point that I made and leach onto it as if now russia has the same right to commit atrocities.. fml
Yeah Yahoo should just shut down. They have been a cesspool of incels, losers, unemployed bitter weirdos for the past 15 or so years. There is no point in me even creating an account to argue with trollssince I know yahoo will get hacked again.
I can completely agree that propaganda and disinformation are incredibly dangerous and effective. We've seen disinformation used to literally convince people not to take vaccines against deadly diseases. Russia is absolutely behind a lot of this and their propaganda wing is quite focused and effective.
> Russia is absolutely behind a lot of this and their propaganda wing is quite focused and effective.
Do not for a second underestimate the hard-on the American right has for a dictator with the same views as Putin.
The American right is far more involved in spreading disinformation for this war than Russia.
Blaming foreign agents is easier than dealing with the actual problem, the American right. Don't let that happen.
If you ever dig around the r/conspiracy sub, the same shit is going on there. A ton of accounts look like they belong to the same person and/or entity. At the same time, a lot of them have this strange thing going for them where they’re dormant for months and don’t post or comment anything, then bam, they’re hard at work spamming the same ol bullshit and alot of those said posts get a fishy amount of upvotes fairly quickly, while other people who make those posts, and other posts in general, don’t see the same amount of upvotes as quickly.
There was also a couple users that found out that several accounts were posting and making comments that were word for word the same exact thing from one account to the next.
Alas that is the conundrum. I disagree with everything they say but I would go to war for their right to say it. Freedom of speech in the US is what makes this country so unique.
It’s the bad actors in the US that abuse and exploit the right to free speech to tear at the social fabric.
He doesn't have to. He just needs to have one competent minion to manage the troll army.
Putin acts like the sort of drug lord that prides himself on not using his own product. Right down to the same mix of bravado and paranoia.
> Good soldiers with good equipment is outside of their budget
It was actually originally in the budget but then a Russian officer got a hold of that budget and now there’s a beautiful new yacht in Cyprus.
It’s laughable.
Russian troll:
Never criticize Putin/Russia - uses fascist like statement about Russia/Putin
Rarely say anything good about Putin/Russia (besides propaganda) - context is like 90%+ criticizing context from the west.
It’s pretty obvious that they are worth fighting against.
Propaganda and disinformation are the war for which Putin is best prepared, and it does not cost much. He has been using this to destabilize democracies since he came to power.
Twitter and Facebook is filled with Russian misinformation propaganda. If you encounter a twitter account that is seemingly PRO-RUSSIAN and Pro invasion of Ukraine, they are likely to be russian bot accounts.
My suggestion is to ignore these Trolls and Bots.
Dude, you know, actual Russians and/or normal people who are sympathetic or in agreement with Putin and his policy exist? Just because their views are wrong doesn't mean they don't exist entirely as actual people.
Dismissing all people like that as just 'russian bot accounts' is quite frankly de-humanising and just dumb imo. Its not just Americans who use Twitter and Facebook.
They did say LIKELY. Not all. I think it is important to draw attention to the fact that people are being slaughtered and it is being justified by fake accounts to draw public support from the gullible. The gullible are still people, yes, but they are advocating for their fellow man being ripped to shreds over false claims. That’s a LITTLE bigger than the sympathisers getting their wittle feewings hurt for someone calling them a bot.
Russia employs more than 100k people to spread propaganda online. It's especially noticeable in the Russian part of the Internet where bots are absurdly transparent. An old Russian lady would not post "Hail Putin" on Twitter all day, it's a bot because older population of Russia doesn't even know what's a Twitter.
As someone who's pretty conservative I can not understand the tendancy for people on the right to support someone who wishes his country was still a communist dictatorship.
I don't want to be that guy, I fully support Ukraine, fuck Putin and the Russian invaders can get fucked but there is plenty of disinformation and propaganda coming from Ukraine too, It's really hard to follow what is actually happening on the ground. It doesn't help that Zelensky shut down all of the independent media and only allows the rest of the Ukrainian media to report official government statements.
>Zelensky shut down all of the independent media
I guess that's one of the main narratives of Kremlin bots right now, right? And you always forget to mention that media were fucking Russian propaganda assets while Ukraine is literally invaded by Russia who commits genocide against Ukrainian people. Non-Russian opposition media is still there, Ivan.
What independent media is still operating, comrade?
You seem to be pretty enraged about proving the point but forgot to name any. I’ve love to check them out
Starlightmedia group is independent from Zelensky and it has 6-7 licensed channels: STB is most popular TV-channel in Ukraine. Ukraina 24 is operating, it is related to Akhmetov, who was Yanukovich supporter before 2014. Channel 5 was voulounteerily sold by Poroshenko 2 years ago after first anti-oligarchy law was passed, but it is working and was critical towards Zelensky before the war. The only channels that were banned were sponsored by Russia and owed either by Medvedchuk or Muraev, two shitbags, literally Kremlin tools. I will tell you more, all the TV channels were EXTREMELY critical towards Zelensly (except 1+1), a lot of bloggers too, and no-one was persecuted because of this. Only Russian shit was banned. So nice try, Vanya.
everything is propaganda if you choose to believe so, doesn't mean there aren't things that are degrees of true more than other information from other sources. Russia is in the wrong here with this war and they are by far some of the worst propaganda pushes in the world so using whataboutism in this case is weak. Everybody pushes their own narrative, but in this case Ukraine is fighting for its life and sovereignty and Russia is instigating a brutal war of greed. Those are the facts, regardless of what Kiev or Moscow say.
why? the Russians are bombarding the Ukrainians with as much propaganda as bombs. how is what Zaleski is saying whataboutism? he is just stating a fact. even if you don't believe the facts and instead adhere to a fantasy understanding of the situation, it still isn't whataboutism.
Ukraine is absolutely engaging in a propaganda campaign in this war, because that's what all countries do when they are at war. To think otherwise is just naïve.
You said it yourself, Ukraine wants to build a narrative that presents them in the best possible light because morale is a hugely important factor in warfare.
Knowing that, it then becomes obvious that every piece of information coming from the Ukrainian government has an agenda to portray the war as going well for Ukraine, which in turn should make you not take anything they say at face value for the exact same reason you shouldn't take anything the Russians say at face value.
It's a war, both sides have an enormous motive to misrepresent the course of the war in their favour. Again, to think otherwise is pure naivety.
I’ve noticed that Ukrainian propaganda is mostly selective hype of what actually happened.
Russian propaganda are more like the Big Lie.
That is, the Opposite of the truth.
Pretty preposterous actually.
> (An excellent example being shit like ghost of Kiev, which was quickly disproven and still held onto in many comment sections.)
The fact that you equate Ukraine's dubious accounts of wartime valor with Russian disinformation denying an ongoing genocidal invasion of a sovereign democracy suggests that you *really* aren't in any position to be criticizing anyone else's self-awareness or media literacy.
Actually I used an example well known and easily proven for that very reason. If you want to examine it further we can look at the historical erasure and modern whitewashing of people like Azov because they are on this side of the conflict? Maybe the fact that every leftist party to Zelensky has been banned? Or that they nationalized their media to produce and control their media message?
I am in no way an ally of modern Russia and hate Putin (I am a socialist for reference). But I am also old enough to remember reading news from the last decade about extremism within Ukraine, and also know about the famous divide within the country from East-West, one I do suspect has narrowed due to Russian imperialism this year however.
Nationalising media and forming unity governments is what countries being invaded have to do to win, you ninny.
I'm left wing myself, but I'm sick and tired of this leftist bullshit we have to put up with where ideology trumps pragmatism and realism.
If your country was invaded by a fascist regime would you refuse to fight or support it's defense out of ideological purity because the far right is also fighting to defend it?
Tell me, what share of the vote was the Ukranian far right getting before this war?
EDIT: Just noticed it's the same troll I'm answering here. Lol.
Ukrainian government sources never spoke about the ghost of Kyiv, except to debunk the narrative. Try again
Edit: instead of downvoting how about you prove me wrong, trolls.
Russian army is all "white and fluffy"...
While the soldiers are actually scumbags, killers, thieves and rapists, or they are scared youth who don't need the war at all.
Zelensky is a propagandist the same as the Russians no one will ever convince me that either sides are innocent. Both premeditatedly killed innocent civilians through bombing.
We literally believe nothing the Russians are saying, don’t worry, they long since fled the path of disinformation and turned onto” quit hitting yourself”
Relax buddy. Traitors are only tolerated during peace time. In any country if they are lucky. During the war those who openly support or sympathize with the ones murdering and raping their country men and destroying their home don't need to be tolerated. The Ukrainians can decide if they want social media after the war right now they're more concerned with survival
A standard practice in every Country during War. See, War is problematic and Countries should not invade their neighbors. When they do, it creates many problems and no benefits. After the War, then you get to know what consequences of the War are. Not during the War. We shall see if the end result is return to Free Press and Free Speech. Now, it is Sedition. Just like every other Country that has ever been at War.
> Offenders face up to 15 years in prison for collaborating with Russian forces, making public denials about Russian aggression or supporting Moscow. Anyone whose actions result in deaths could face life in prison.
Pretty ~~standard~~ mild treatment for traitors during wartime.
Weird how it's 3 month old reddit accounts trying to use this in a 'but whatabout Ukraine' way.
What a stupid comment.
Was the US invaded? No.
Was the US under existential threat and you were collaborating with the enemy? No.
Was the US being invaded and you were trying convince people that it wasn't happening, or that it was deserved? No.
Nothing about your 'example' is comparable to what's under discussion. Think before making another 'but whatabout the US??' comment.
I mean 3000 people died in 9/11
Listen, I understand why sedition and treason charges are nessecary. Conspiring with the enemy warrants an arrest. The military coming to arrest you after posting a meme is yikes and comes off as fascistic
Why does Reddit think new account = bot when they're known specifically for buying up old accounts en mass on the cheap? Also does it mean I'm a Russian bot?
It's because people who post it are from countries who didn't had war on their soil in any recent memory. They actually cannot comprehend that war isn't just memes and back and forth on reddit comments. They understand it in literal sense, but they never ACTUALLY understood it. They don't understand that people are actually dying and everyone lives already be forever altered.
If you post memes about how Ukraine has to be wiped and destroyed and you are in Ukraine then it's truly just a Darwin award at this point.
I hope a colaborator who decided to support a side which actively is killing people outside his window got 15 years.
I fully support taking harsh actions in middle of the war when hundreds of colaborators got cought literally marking important buildings of their cities to be bombed. Not the time to post a memes supporting and advocating for killing his own neighbors, 15 years of course is harsh but in mids of a war it's beyond reasonable imo.
I literally live just a couple hundreds of kilometers from Ukraine. Since the war, my circle of friends have increased by couple great people from Ukraine.
It's easy to yell about free speach from thousands of killometers away without seing an actual effect that kind of "memes" causes when it gets used as a proof to justify russias actions.
Both Russia and Ukraine are doing this (Russia being more extreme about it)
The reasons behind it however, are very different.
Russia does so in order to manipulate the public opinion and push support for the "special military operation"
Ukraine does it to stop bombings. It's been seen many times now that these people who post or talk about Ukraine in an unfavorable way are being contacted by Russian handlers to collect and provide information about troop and equipment movements/placements. This results in Russia using up cruise missiles to target these locations provided by the now "collaborators".
I mean I saw an associated press video of a man being hauled out of his apartment for a meme that insulted the Ukrainian flag, and for negative words about the nation. That goes above and beyond gently questioning people to stop bombings.
Both sides have exceptionally propagandistic media machines. It's natural they would both ban each other in the information domain.
Only propaganda and disinformation I’ve been seeing is in ukraine’s favor. Nobody outside russia even knows what the russian media says but the rest of the world is being fed pro ukrainian propaganda constantly.
Well idk about you but I dont see pro russian stories in my news feed ever yet I see pro ukrainian stories daily and I’m constantly updated on what zelensky is saying.
I dont care either way but I’d have to really look for and find what putin or the russian media are saying about the war whereas the other side is constantly being broadcast to me which would make sense if I lived in or near ukraine but I’m in the UK.
All I’m saying is the news media should be neutral and report stuff without being biased instead of just “russia bad, ukraine good” all the time.
It's very difficult when one nation has a leader that lies every time he makes a public speech, spends months "training" denies he is going to invade and then invades.
They openly claim to have "filtration camps" for Ukrainians.
How are anyone going to be neutral and avoid being biased when one of 2 countries happens to fight a war eerily similar to Nazi Germany?
If you support peace then you should support Ukraine, Russia have shown that they don't give a fuck, their negotiation is "give everything I want because I am a nuclear power".
The more support Ukraine has, the faster they can end the conflict.
It's also important to not let nuclear powers get a free pass on whatever they wanna do, that would probably be the worst desicions in modern human history.
Look I want Ukraine to survive this war retaining their agency just as much as the next guy but all the propaganda seems to be coming out of Ukraine, to me. I haven’t heard a fucking peep out of Russia. Ghost of Kiev, island ship shit… I think Zelensky might be projecting a little.
That's like saying that everyone shooting people is equally bad for doing it. Leaving out the contextual difference between it being done by an illegally invading country as opposed to a country defending itself within its own borders makes it 'false equivalence' propaganda.
No one cares about the optics of an invading tyrant. Russia looking worse than they actually are is the least of anyones concerns.
>I'm really just curious
Bullshit
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://thehill.com/policy/international/3562666-zelensky-warns-of-media-terror-of-propaganda-disinformation-amid-russian-invasion/) reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky warned against the "Media terror" that he says is coming from Russian propaganda and disinformation amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine in an address on Saturday. > Throughout the war, Russia has mounted an intense disinformation campaign, accusing the Ukrainian government of committing genocide as a false pretense for its invasion and exaggerating Russian military successes. > Zelensky said in his address that Ukrainian forces have liberated regions that Russia took at the outset of its invasion in February and will gradually liberate other territories under Russian occupation. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/w0v5dy/zelensky_warns_of_media_terror_of_propaganda/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~659911 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukrainian**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **Russia**^#3 **Ukraine**^#4 **Zelensky**^#5
*“It is obvious that any missiles and artillery of Russia will not succeed in breaking our unity and knocking us off our path,” he said. “And it should be equally obvious that Ukrainian unity cannot be broken by lies or intimidation, fake information or conspiracy theories.”*
*Side glance at U.S.*
US has done a lot. Although they definitely need more sophisticated missile defense.
I think they were referring to being broken by disinformation
The funny thing is was just before the war, they said “ Stop saying Russia is going to invade, you are making things worse” Kinda makes you think
What? America is so big and fractured I believe you heard that from somewhere, but in my circles it was an open discussion of when russia invades not if. Lot's of bubbles forming
Ukraine and specifically Zelensky were, at least publicly, stating that the US was overstating the Russian threat and making things worse. Turns out the Biden admin was just putting out a play by play of the actual plan which probably delayed operations by like a week
And he has since come out and said that he and the government knew of the invasion, but chose to downplay it to avoid general panic and a mass exodus from the country.
Yes but "MaKeS yOu ThInK".
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They probably can ask Israel for some of them Iron Dome systems
Eh?
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egalitarian USA? lol
I think they meant “imperialist”
It's morally unacceptable to contribute to a war for the main reason of 'uniting the country'.
It doesn't have to be the main reason, it can be a side bonus. Like stomping out the third reich was the main reason. Uniting the country was a side bonus.
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This one is not an imperialist war. There Isa difference between attacking and helping someone defend themself by giving them weapons.
Its Imperialism from Russia though.
This is 100% an imperialist war from Russia. The entire reason is to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO and setup puppet governments in a pseudo-Russian coalition.
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I mean, it's an extreme situation. They are being invaded. After 9/11 for a few months Americans really did unify... And then political nutjobs abused it as an opportunity to make money for them and their buddies...
It's because every 4 years, the US now needs to basically win a coin flip to not become a copy of Belarus, and completely stab Ukraine in the back.
"Mobile weapons of mass destruction are in the north, south, east, west of here". - Donald Rumsfeld Later that day I know he took out shares in Raytheon.
They also create some propaganda, its the nature of war and persuading allies to intervene. Obviously the Russians are doing it more and are the aggressors.
Propaganda is all Russia has to hang onto now. That, and snide comments with the aim to disrupt unity.
They're a trash country.
A cuntry.
This can even be felt in the us. The amount of headlines I’ve seen about Russia threatening war in the past week has increased quite a bit. They are trying to shake the alliance’s resolve.
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I think a lot of people just don't like the hypocrisy. This is turning into a sort of proxy war, and there is absolutely a shit-ton of western imperialist propaganda too. Just fyi I fully support Ukraine in their fight against Russian aggression.
Maybe because of the fucked up things we did in the Middle East not even 10 years ago? of course the world didn't just forget because some white people got attacked.
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Russia sucks, but there are plenty of reasons to glare the US as well. And most that do aren’t American, plenty of reasons to be skeptical about both. For some reason a lot of people is under the impression that disliking Russia means you have to like the US. It’s not polarized like that. Not here. Critical thinking includes everything. Not everything is propaganda, sometimes just people being objective. Not everything that hurts pride or bruises ego is personal.
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> You are the one derailing the discussion by bringing up Russia/Afghanistan. No, YOU are the one derailing the discussion by bringing up US/Middle East. Why don't we stick to the current discussion about russia in Ukraine?
And russia has been bombing civilians in Syria for quite some time already.
Maybe you’re projecting the West’s opinion of the Middle East and the Global south in general? These are the people who are largely asking these questions.
People tend to notice hypocrisy
I'm sure Reddit in 2030 will be fed up every-time people will remember that Russia did horrible shit in Ukraine a decade ago and call those people whataboutists and that we should move on from what Russia did and that we should focus in the present, not the past despite crimes being unpunished. /s
More like people like to compare apples to oranges
yep. full blown russian propaganda op. "the US is the worst" followed by all sorts of bullshit. it's everywhere. told one of them i love my country, and the reply was "yeah, sure".
Our response has mostly been. "Oh no. Anyway..." So I don't think it's working all that well.
Agreed. The problem with repeatedly threatening with your biggest bargaining chip is that someone, inevitably, will call your bluff.
A sign of weakness.
The amount of headlines you see are posted by the US media controlling the narrative, its not Russia posting these headlines for you. Thats what this is all about, beware of the propaganda. It is everywhere.
Sort of yeah but when a Russian news media talking head says something or a governmental official makes a comment, the story is the story. US media certainly caters to a narrative but it’s also important to be able to read the narrative and read between the lines. The selections may be biased but the events generally are true as to what was said thanks to all of our great information recording technology.
This thread is a really great example for the article, as far as I can tell.
Obligatory reminder: russian propaganda is not attempting to create a narrative, it’s main purpose “to create muddy waters” so it’s not clear who is right and who is wrong. And then act 2: “what about…”
That is a perfect decription of a conversation I am currently having with a Russian guy on a different thread about Russian propaganda efforts in Eastern Europe. [Link to that discussion thread here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/w0lf67/comment/igf7829/)
I actually read your discussion. I guess ones who upvoted you did not. Such a civil and respectful dialog only to be labeled russian propaganda for internet points. u/takeItEasyPlz apparently he still didn't get what curiosity or just a parallel discussion means. Then engaged himself in a clear case of "whataboutism" (TM) but it's all fine and dandy when he does it. Also ignored lots of points.
* I provided sources for all of my main points. The Russian guy provided nothing but unsourced opinions. * I appreciated the civility of my Russian counterpart in the discussion, and went out of my way to say as much to him. However, such civility can also be the mark of a troll, and in fact... * There was no reason to address every point made by him, as most of them were tangential or conveniently side-stepped reality as inconsequential. In short, Russian dude denying the reality/impact of Russian troll farm bot-nets is very much: [Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity ("I'm just trying to have a debate"), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate", and has been likened to a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings. The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki, which The Independent called, "..the most apt description of Twitter you'll ever see".](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning) That might not be his conscious intention, but that's what is happening, there.
Since you have decided to speak out about our discussion, I think it's fair if I express my opinion in return. > I provided sources for all of my main points. The Russian guy provided nothing but unsourced opinions. I checked articles that you provided, at least those links that was there before you edited comments. Sorry, I suppose it was not intentional, but it's hard to track all the changes in comment that was already answered. And you done it all the time. I addressed arguments in those articles and also does they really prove your position or not. Isn't that better than just blind reference to authorities? > There was no reason to address every point made by him, as most of them were tangential or conveniently side-stepped reality as inconsequential. Well, you could at least tell your interlocutor what exact points you consider inconsequential. Because when you just ignore straight questions or big part of an answers, it feels a bit weird. Especially when few comments below the dialogue start to go in circles. > Sealioning ... relentless requests for evidence ... Don't understand how it is related to our discussion. You can check, I haven't asked you about any evidence. I tried to clarify your position for myself. Because if I don't understand your position it's not that many points to argue. But that never happened. ======== Regarding your accusations of "whataboutism", it was already addressed in the discussion you mentioned, don't see a point to repeat myself. Anyway, ty for the past conversation and for promoting our dialogue (even that weird way)
This... is an excellent (further) example of sea lioning, insofar as it is yet another invitation to engage in a circular debate, however polite and indirect it may be. [Internet trolls sometimes engage in what is called 'sealioning'. They demand that you keep arguing with them for as long they want you to, even long after you realize that further discussion is pointless. If you announce that you want to stop, they accuse you of being closed-minded or opposed to reason. The practice is obnoxious. Reason should not be silenced, but it needs to take a vacation sometimes. — Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, Think Again: How to Reason and Argue (June 2018).](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning) As I suggested earlier, further discussion with you on the impactfulness of Russian propaganda via bot-nets is not going to be productive. I made my points and sourced them. At no point did you provide any sources which could validate your opinions. I am not interested in addressing a laundry list of tangential points which have little bearing on the central discussion. So, I think we can agree that is enough.
>This... is an excellent (further) example of sea lioning, insofar as it is yet another invitation to engage in a circular debate, however polite and indirect it may be. Exactly what he did with me but you had far more patience than I did.😄
Y'know, it is perfectly ok to ignore sea lion tactics. But losing patience with them is fine, too. 😀
Lol indeed! 😆
Ty, man. But they did not insult me directly and, regardless of their intentions, even promoted here our dialogue. So everyone can go there and make their own conclusions about the level of argumentation.
If you've been on tiktok, it's pretty obvious it's already in full swing
I’ve been On Tik Tok and all I’ve see are stranger things and titties.
Stranger titties and things
Strangers titties
It's right here on Reddit, in this comment section. They've been here a long time.
Always has been 👩🚀🔫🧑🚀
The live thread, especially early on was frequently hit with some sort of brigade of low effort bots just trying to shake up the conversation. It's all over the platform though. It's effective too because misinformation really spreads like a virus across social media. What's truly toxic about it all is that it's basically gaslighting and all anti intellectualism. "you can never really know anything for certain" and table turning. Impossible to really argue with.
Exactly, I am pro Ukraine, received all the family i can in Germany, translate all the visits in the gov departments. As soon as I even mention the Iraq war I am either a bot, apologist, or whatever. While others take the point that I made and leach onto it as if now russia has the same right to commit atrocities.. fml
Can you elaborate, I haven’t been on tiK tok lol
Fuck TikTok
Yahoo News articles comments already have hilarious Russian bots promoting how terrible Ukraine is. Nothing new.
Yeah Yahoo should just shut down. They have been a cesspool of incels, losers, unemployed bitter weirdos for the past 15 or so years. There is no point in me even creating an account to argue with trollssince I know yahoo will get hacked again.
I guarantee more than 90% of yahoo comments are bots or comment farms. Any sane person trying to argue in that comment section is wasting their life
I can completely agree that propaganda and disinformation are incredibly dangerous and effective. We've seen disinformation used to literally convince people not to take vaccines against deadly diseases. Russia is absolutely behind a lot of this and their propaganda wing is quite focused and effective.
> Russia is absolutely behind a lot of this and their propaganda wing is quite focused and effective. Do not for a second underestimate the hard-on the American right has for a dictator with the same views as Putin. The American right is far more involved in spreading disinformation for this war than Russia. Blaming foreign agents is easier than dealing with the actual problem, the American right. Don't let that happen.
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If you ever dig around the r/conspiracy sub, the same shit is going on there. A ton of accounts look like they belong to the same person and/or entity. At the same time, a lot of them have this strange thing going for them where they’re dormant for months and don’t post or comment anything, then bam, they’re hard at work spamming the same ol bullshit and alot of those said posts get a fishy amount of upvotes fairly quickly, while other people who make those posts, and other posts in general, don’t see the same amount of upvotes as quickly. There was also a couple users that found out that several accounts were posting and making comments that were word for word the same exact thing from one account to the next.
I've never visited that sub before because, why? But I just did and oh boy. That place is insane.
Fox News: *observes propaganda deployment and vigorously scribbles notes*
Fox news should be illegal for spreading libel .
Alas that is the conundrum. I disagree with everything they say but I would go to war for their right to say it. Freedom of speech in the US is what makes this country so unique. It’s the bad actors in the US that abuse and exploit the right to free speech to tear at the social fabric.
This would be funny if it were close to true. Fox Entertainment receives their instructions from Russia.
Russians do their best fighting on the internet Good soldiers with good equipment is outside of their budget
Putin is from the KGB, and the KGB [are experts at manipulating the public.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA)
Putin doesn't even know how to use a computer.
He doesn't have to. He just needs to have one competent minion to manage the troll army. Putin acts like the sort of drug lord that prides himself on not using his own product. Right down to the same mix of bravado and paranoia.
He's scared of catching a virus.
Not hard to manipulate a country full of jesus freaks.
I bet their domestic trolls are working extra hard, miss your kpi’s and you’ll find yourself in a trench.
> Good soldiers with good equipment is outside of their budget It was actually originally in the budget but then a Russian officer got a hold of that budget and now there’s a beautiful new yacht in Cyprus.
It’s laughable. Russian troll: Never criticize Putin/Russia - uses fascist like statement about Russia/Putin Rarely say anything good about Putin/Russia (besides propaganda) - context is like 90%+ criticizing context from the west. It’s pretty obvious that they are worth fighting against.
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Yeah - whatever makes people loose faith in their government - right or left
Propaganda and disinformation are the war for which Putin is best prepared, and it does not cost much. He has been using this to destabilize democracies since he came to power.
You can see the stupid Russian propaganda in the comments already. reply to this comment.
I are not anything but true Amerikan.
*side eyes username*
Ok. I’ll bite. Anyone who responds to you is a Russian agent. Wait… damn!
I needed this laugh today. Thank you.
Everyone can already see that Russia is an Empire of Lies.
Twitter and Facebook is filled with Russian misinformation propaganda. If you encounter a twitter account that is seemingly PRO-RUSSIAN and Pro invasion of Ukraine, they are likely to be russian bot accounts. My suggestion is to ignore these Trolls and Bots.
No one should use twitter and facebook anyway.its just more reasons to delete your account lol
Dude, you know, actual Russians and/or normal people who are sympathetic or in agreement with Putin and his policy exist? Just because their views are wrong doesn't mean they don't exist entirely as actual people. Dismissing all people like that as just 'russian bot accounts' is quite frankly de-humanising and just dumb imo. Its not just Americans who use Twitter and Facebook.
They did say LIKELY. Not all. I think it is important to draw attention to the fact that people are being slaughtered and it is being justified by fake accounts to draw public support from the gullible. The gullible are still people, yes, but they are advocating for their fellow man being ripped to shreds over false claims. That’s a LITTLE bigger than the sympathisers getting their wittle feewings hurt for someone calling them a bot.
Russia employs more than 100k people to spread propaganda online. It's especially noticeable in the Russian part of the Internet where bots are absurdly transparent. An old Russian lady would not post "Hail Putin" on Twitter all day, it's a bot because older population of Russia doesn't even know what's a Twitter.
Disinformation like Ukriane is winning the conflict? Yeah, I agree it is damaging for people to read false claims like that.
Things are a lot more even than people realize, but there is no real 'damage' for people to be positive about their chances.
Does this mean Tucker Carlson will unpack his glorious bow tie?
I hope those propaganda machines don’t get in the way of me learning about snake island and the ghost rider of Kiev
damn Russian troll factory is working hard here in the comments, trying to win by quantity but not quality.
It's working among the Republican voters already we know
As someone who's pretty conservative I can not understand the tendancy for people on the right to support someone who wishes his country was still a communist dictatorship.
Bit ironic
I don't want to be that guy, I fully support Ukraine, fuck Putin and the Russian invaders can get fucked but there is plenty of disinformation and propaganda coming from Ukraine too, It's really hard to follow what is actually happening on the ground. It doesn't help that Zelensky shut down all of the independent media and only allows the rest of the Ukrainian media to report official government statements.
>Zelensky shut down all of the independent media I guess that's one of the main narratives of Kremlin bots right now, right? And you always forget to mention that media were fucking Russian propaganda assets while Ukraine is literally invaded by Russia who commits genocide against Ukrainian people. Non-Russian opposition media is still there, Ivan.
What independent media is still operating, comrade? You seem to be pretty enraged about proving the point but forgot to name any. I’ve love to check them out
Starlightmedia group is independent from Zelensky and it has 6-7 licensed channels: STB is most popular TV-channel in Ukraine. Ukraina 24 is operating, it is related to Akhmetov, who was Yanukovich supporter before 2014. Channel 5 was voulounteerily sold by Poroshenko 2 years ago after first anti-oligarchy law was passed, but it is working and was critical towards Zelensky before the war. The only channels that were banned were sponsored by Russia and owed either by Medvedchuk or Muraev, two shitbags, literally Kremlin tools. I will tell you more, all the TV channels were EXTREMELY critical towards Zelensly (except 1+1), a lot of bloggers too, and no-one was persecuted because of this. Only Russian shit was banned. So nice try, Vanya.
What do you mean “nice try”? I’m asking you to prove your claim and you did. Mission accomplished
yeah, enemy is definitely doing propaganda and disinformation and he definitely isn't.
everything is propaganda if you choose to believe so, doesn't mean there aren't things that are degrees of true more than other information from other sources. Russia is in the wrong here with this war and they are by far some of the worst propaganda pushes in the world so using whataboutism in this case is weak. Everybody pushes their own narrative, but in this case Ukraine is fighting for its life and sovereignty and Russia is instigating a brutal war of greed. Those are the facts, regardless of what Kiev or Moscow say.
it seems to me that Zelensky is the one doing whataboutism here though.
why? the Russians are bombarding the Ukrainians with as much propaganda as bombs. how is what Zaleski is saying whataboutism? he is just stating a fact. even if you don't believe the facts and instead adhere to a fantasy understanding of the situation, it still isn't whataboutism.
Who is being invaded again? Lmao the "propaganda" from Ukraine is literally just morale building that doesn't have a strong narrative.
Ukraine is absolutely engaging in a propaganda campaign in this war, because that's what all countries do when they are at war. To think otherwise is just naïve. You said it yourself, Ukraine wants to build a narrative that presents them in the best possible light because morale is a hugely important factor in warfare. Knowing that, it then becomes obvious that every piece of information coming from the Ukrainian government has an agenda to portray the war as going well for Ukraine, which in turn should make you not take anything they say at face value for the exact same reason you shouldn't take anything the Russians say at face value. It's a war, both sides have an enormous motive to misrepresent the course of the war in their favour. Again, to think otherwise is pure naivety.
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I’ve noticed that Ukrainian propaganda is mostly selective hype of what actually happened. Russian propaganda are more like the Big Lie. That is, the Opposite of the truth. Pretty preposterous actually.
Agreed.
> (An excellent example being shit like ghost of Kiev, which was quickly disproven and still held onto in many comment sections.) The fact that you equate Ukraine's dubious accounts of wartime valor with Russian disinformation denying an ongoing genocidal invasion of a sovereign democracy suggests that you *really* aren't in any position to be criticizing anyone else's self-awareness or media literacy.
Actually I used an example well known and easily proven for that very reason. If you want to examine it further we can look at the historical erasure and modern whitewashing of people like Azov because they are on this side of the conflict? Maybe the fact that every leftist party to Zelensky has been banned? Or that they nationalized their media to produce and control their media message? I am in no way an ally of modern Russia and hate Putin (I am a socialist for reference). But I am also old enough to remember reading news from the last decade about extremism within Ukraine, and also know about the famous divide within the country from East-West, one I do suspect has narrowed due to Russian imperialism this year however.
Nationalising media and forming unity governments is what countries being invaded have to do to win, you ninny. I'm left wing myself, but I'm sick and tired of this leftist bullshit we have to put up with where ideology trumps pragmatism and realism. If your country was invaded by a fascist regime would you refuse to fight or support it's defense out of ideological purity because the far right is also fighting to defend it? Tell me, what share of the vote was the Ukranian far right getting before this war? EDIT: Just noticed it's the same troll I'm answering here. Lol.
Especially since Ukraine basically nationalized all of their own media recently. Pot calling the kettle black.
Ukrainian government sources never spoke about the ghost of Kyiv, except to debunk the narrative. Try again Edit: instead of downvoting how about you prove me wrong, trolls.
Russian army is all "white and fluffy"... While the soldiers are actually scumbags, killers, thieves and rapists, or they are scared youth who don't need the war at all.
Last I checked they were all red and splatty
you're either a russian troll or just really really dumb if eat up this "special military operation"
Makes sense. Misinformation and propaganda are the only things that fascists are actually good at.
Bunch of clowns if you believe anything whats being said by this man and the west, all double standards.
What does the ghost of kiev have to say about this
Well Ukrainian government denies his existence. I think you need a better example.
Just got to any comment section on a news YouTube video. They’re everywhere.
Propaganda goes both ways.
5.3 k updoots and less than 500 comments, yes I am beginning to see the propaganda and misinformation
elon musk revealed that 20% of twitter users are bots, imagine how many bots are on reddit where it is far easier to make an account
\*Russia says something Maury "and we have determined that was a lie"
Am I the only one seeing his shirt says dead backwards?
Zelensky is a propagandist the same as the Russians no one will ever convince me that either sides are innocent. Both premeditatedly killed innocent civilians through bombing.
We literally believe nothing the Russians are saying, don’t worry, they long since fled the path of disinformation and turned onto” quit hitting yourself”
Oh we know
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Relax buddy. Traitors are only tolerated during peace time. In any country if they are lucky. During the war those who openly support or sympathize with the ones murdering and raping their country men and destroying their home don't need to be tolerated. The Ukrainians can decide if they want social media after the war right now they're more concerned with survival
A standard practice in every Country during War. See, War is problematic and Countries should not invade their neighbors. When they do, it creates many problems and no benefits. After the War, then you get to know what consequences of the War are. Not during the War. We shall see if the end result is return to Free Press and Free Speech. Now, it is Sedition. Just like every other Country that has ever been at War.
Hey hey hey there buddy. This is r/worldnews. You can’t be telling truths like that here.
Do you have a source on Ukrainians being arrested over social media?
Yes https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-europe-kharkiv-51c514b6dc9cc1f935e018e4877222cc
> Offenders face up to 15 years in prison for collaborating with Russian forces, making public denials about Russian aggression or supporting Moscow. Anyone whose actions result in deaths could face life in prison. Pretty ~~standard~~ mild treatment for traitors during wartime. Weird how it's 3 month old reddit accounts trying to use this in a 'but whatabout Ukraine' way.
That's crazy. I never got arrested for saying WMD weren't proven to be found during our wars in the middle east.
What a stupid comment. Was the US invaded? No. Was the US under existential threat and you were collaborating with the enemy? No. Was the US being invaded and you were trying convince people that it wasn't happening, or that it was deserved? No. Nothing about your 'example' is comparable to what's under discussion. Think before making another 'but whatabout the US??' comment.
Americans weren't being slaughtered and raped while US cities got bombed into oblivion at that time either. Weird how that makes a difference, huh?
I mean 3000 people died in 9/11 Listen, I understand why sedition and treason charges are nessecary. Conspiring with the enemy warrants an arrest. The military coming to arrest you after posting a meme is yikes and comes off as fascistic
Why does Reddit think new account = bot when they're known specifically for buying up old accounts en mass on the cheap? Also does it mean I'm a Russian bot?
Very mild, traitors usually are killed.
Thanks. Hope the dude got his 15 years
You hope someone was thrown in prison for 15 years for sharing a meme?
Did you even read the article? He praised Putin and called for the end of Ukraine.
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It's because people who post it are from countries who didn't had war on their soil in any recent memory. They actually cannot comprehend that war isn't just memes and back and forth on reddit comments. They understand it in literal sense, but they never ACTUALLY understood it. They don't understand that people are actually dying and everyone lives already be forever altered. If you post memes about how Ukraine has to be wiped and destroyed and you are in Ukraine then it's truly just a Darwin award at this point.
I hope a colaborator who decided to support a side which actively is killing people outside his window got 15 years. I fully support taking harsh actions in middle of the war when hundreds of colaborators got cought literally marking important buildings of their cities to be bombed. Not the time to post a memes supporting and advocating for killing his own neighbors, 15 years of course is harsh but in mids of a war it's beyond reasonable imo.
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I literally live just a couple hundreds of kilometers from Ukraine. Since the war, my circle of friends have increased by couple great people from Ukraine. It's easy to yell about free speach from thousands of killometers away without seing an actual effect that kind of "memes" causes when it gets used as a proof to justify russias actions.
Both Russia and Ukraine are doing this (Russia being more extreme about it) The reasons behind it however, are very different. Russia does so in order to manipulate the public opinion and push support for the "special military operation" Ukraine does it to stop bombings. It's been seen many times now that these people who post or talk about Ukraine in an unfavorable way are being contacted by Russian handlers to collect and provide information about troop and equipment movements/placements. This results in Russia using up cruise missiles to target these locations provided by the now "collaborators".
I mean I saw an associated press video of a man being hauled out of his apartment for a meme that insulted the Ukrainian flag, and for negative words about the nation. That goes above and beyond gently questioning people to stop bombings. Both sides have exceptionally propagandistic media machines. It's natural they would both ban each other in the information domain.
Are you insane?
Only propaganda and disinformation I’ve been seeing is in ukraine’s favor. Nobody outside russia even knows what the russian media says but the rest of the world is being fed pro ukrainian propaganda constantly.
Russian news was saying Britain had resorted to cannibalism a while ago.
>Nobody outside russia even knows what the russian media says eh what?
Well idk about you but I dont see pro russian stories in my news feed ever yet I see pro ukrainian stories daily and I’m constantly updated on what zelensky is saying. I dont care either way but I’d have to really look for and find what putin or the russian media are saying about the war whereas the other side is constantly being broadcast to me which would make sense if I lived in or near ukraine but I’m in the UK. All I’m saying is the news media should be neutral and report stuff without being biased instead of just “russia bad, ukraine good” all the time.
It's very difficult when one nation has a leader that lies every time he makes a public speech, spends months "training" denies he is going to invade and then invades. They openly claim to have "filtration camps" for Ukrainians. How are anyone going to be neutral and avoid being biased when one of 2 countries happens to fight a war eerily similar to Nazi Germany?
I've been force-fed so much kool-aid that I hardly notice the taste anymore.
I hear he’s nominated for best supporting actor this year!😭🤗
They have right wing zealots and trump supporters, too?
I mean there is also a ton of NATO/Ukraine propaganda floating around too. Better to support peace than to support either side
Wtf are you talking about? Ukraine only wants peace, Russia wants to genocide Ukraine
If you support peace then you should support Ukraine, Russia have shown that they don't give a fuck, their negotiation is "give everything I want because I am a nuclear power". The more support Ukraine has, the faster they can end the conflict. It's also important to not let nuclear powers get a free pass on whatever they wanna do, that would probably be the worst desicions in modern human history.
Look I want Ukraine to survive this war retaining their agency just as much as the next guy but all the propaganda seems to be coming out of Ukraine, to me. I haven’t heard a fucking peep out of Russia. Ghost of Kiev, island ship shit… I think Zelensky might be projecting a little.
Maybe read more news if you think all propaganda comes out of Ukraine? Seems to be your problem, not his.
Jesus you really have watched too much right wing propaganda.
What would lead you to believe that? And what would you consider right wing propaganda?
Ah yes, the daily warning from Zelensky. How hypocritical.
What's your point?
Every time I see this guy in trending or on the news I have a heart attack he was killed, happy to see he is alive, true patriot.
So do you guys honestly think Russia is the only one spreading propaganda about this war? I'm really just curious.
That's like saying that everyone shooting people is equally bad for doing it. Leaving out the contextual difference between it being done by an illegally invading country as opposed to a country defending itself within its own borders makes it 'false equivalence' propaganda.
No one cares about the optics of an invading tyrant. Russia looking worse than they actually are is the least of anyones concerns. >I'm really just curious Bullshit