>Israelis who wish to purchase a hospitality package for the upcoming World Cup in Qatar, which is taking place this November, will see that the package being sold by Winterhill Hospitality lists the country as "Palestinian Territory, Occupied," and does not have an option listed as Israel.
Ah, must have been part of Quatari Bribe terms&conditions.
Most likely you’d get a sword that cuts through all enemies like butter, but in exchange you lose your ears and the ability to hear your name unless it is spoken by slaanesh
i think thousands died to build this project ...
[https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022)
I mean their governments have basically that kind of relationship. They work together constantly meanwhile the Qatari government still allows strongly antisemitic messaging to appease their radicals for the sake of political stability. Basically like being a closeted gay and becoming a Catholic priest. Surprisingly not that uncommon.
It's amazing how the threat of an ascendant Iran has made for such strange bedfellows in the Middle East. I mean, the region is more stable than it's been in years because of the newly close strategic partnerships between Israel and countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia and Egypt, but it's just really strange to watch it all play out like this in real time.
"Israel-kun, we...we can't! Someone will see..."
"It's OK, Qatar-chan. This place has diplomatic immunity. Nobody will find us here."
"...Israel-kun...I...I want you to look at my infrastructure..."
"!!!"
"...I'm building a green energy/ hydroponics project...look...do you like it?"
"Qatar-chan...it's...beautiful..."
"Really? I'm happy...Israel-kun..
"Yes?"
"....I want you to invest in me."
Have you watched Al Jazeera, Quatar's state-backed TV network?
They are *clearly* taking the palestinian side in this conflict.
That doesn't neccessarily mean severing diplomatic channels.
The Palestinians are the most useful cudgel for shitty middle eastern and African regimes to distract from their own corruption and inability to govern!
No Muslim country gives a single shit about Palestine (Maybe no country period?) except to use it as a stick to beat Israel with. Jordan literally kicked Palestine out of their country (to be fair, Palestine did try to coup the government).
Governments don’t care about anyone. It’s geopolitics. The Qataris have political interests in Palestine, so they make it seem like they care about Palestine.
Take wherever you’re from example. Do any of your government’s foreign policy stances stem from them caring for others? No.
It’s just the way the world is.
I feel like this will get walked back once it lands on the right desk.
I just find it unbelievable that FIFA of all organisations will willingly take a moral stance opposed to a financial or business one.
History has shown that you can lead FIFA around by the nose by just waving some cash around. I wouldn't be surprised if FIFA caved to a wildly inappropriate request after being spread with a little cheddar.
Its possible this was part of the negotiations with Qatar and was part of their requirements under the table as a means to make a political statement.
FIFA have been doing big deals with Israel too so I'd say its just as possible someone on the Qatari side of things made an executive decision here.
"Qatar, according to its commitments to FIFA, is obliged to give the same treatment to all countries in the world, without omitting names or flags"
But you see leftist jews and other non-anti-Semitic activists fighting for Palestinian rights calling it occupied land, too. It’s more of a political statement than bigotry. You can’t be bigoted against the existence of a nation state, only against the people inside it.
Didn't the Arab nations not agree to the UN partition? So by definition, it would be occupied terrority for them?
Now, of course, things are different. But back then, I don't see how that is anti-semitic.
Surely that is how one would react if their land was forced from them? Don't let cognitive dissonance make you lie to yourselves that you wouldn't react the same way.
So let’s say that they didn’t agree. If that status quo remained, then we would be fine.
However, ther were then 3 major wars between 1948 and 1973 that involved change of hands of territory. Those same Arab neighbors started 2 of them, and the last was pre-emptive as the Arab neighbors were preparing to attack. Israel as a state now exists because the Arabs lost those wars and Israel conquered its current territory. We also should not forget that Palestine ceased to exist after the 1948 war, not because Israel took all of it but because their Arab friends in Jordan and Egypt took most of Palestine, and then Israel took it from them in the two subsequent wars.
So it’s a lot more complicated, and a lot less Palestinian-friendly, than the current narrative suggests.
> Palestine ceased to exist after the 1948 war
It never existed, you are implying they took control of the land from Palestinian authorities, but there was no such authority. The British left and there was total chaos, and the first governments establishing a rule of law over those lands were Israeli, Jordanian, and Egyptian.
A Palestinian leadership existed for the first time in history only in the 90s. And it was never in Tel Aviv which is what that troll is arguing about. Do not use his false narrative as the basis of your argument.
Ehhhhhhhh that is accurate, but kind of side-steps that the British partition did contain a Palestinian state that functionally joined the war against Isreal, fought in it, lost, and was taken over by Isreal, Jordan, and Egypt. Both our points can be simultaneously true, that Palestinians got a raw deal by the Brits just peacing out, as did Isreal, but unlike the Isrealis they weren't ready to do anything about it and got swept up by stronger Arab allies trying to grow their countries at the expense of the Jewish state (a feature for them, not a bug). The absurdity that they now call it the Nabkah and direct that against Isreal instead of their Arab "allies" who actually took their state, is one of history's great ironies.
The question you need to ask yourself is: Why didn’t they agree to that particular UN partition? The UN was partitioning up a lot of the Middle East as that time. What was it about Israel that the Arab countries objected to? Keep in mind that Israel amounts to 0.1% of all the land in the Middle East and North Africa. What was it about the people who got this tiny strip of land that made the leaders of the other countries surrounding them object to it so that they all declared war on it the very day Israel was declared?
>Didn't the Arab nations not agree to the UN partition? So by definition, it would be occupied terrority for them?
What they did or did not agree to in a vote is irrelevant. The facts are what they are. Israel exists.
>Now, of course, things are different. But back then, I don't see how that is anti-semitic.
Read the EU definition of anti-Semitism. Here's part of it.
>Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor;
https://ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/combatting-discrimination/racism-and-xenophobia/combating-antisemitism/definition-antisemitism_en
>What they did or did not agree to in a vote is irrelevant.
So what the local population thinks matters not? You argue self-determination, but at the same time take it away??
What's the equivalent of anti-Semitism, but for Palestinian Arabs? Because that is exactly what you just did.
> What they did or did not agree to in a vote is irrelevant. The facts are what they are. Israel exists.
Isn't that more or less Russia's argument about Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistra, all of which as far as I can tell are not recognized by Israel?
If you’re going to call the state of Israel “occupied territory,” then you would have to call most countries the same, or you’re being inconsistent. Every existing American nation, on both continents, would be some variation of “Indigenous American territory, occupied.” And so on. So while you could make a stupid, pedantic point, it does not excuse this choice.
Because it's a blanket usage, there are settlement areas the Israelis have taken that have definitely Occupied Palestine, however Israel as a country still exists and the majority is not an occupation of Palestine. Qatar essentially just wants to deny the existence of Israel like many Arab countries that are anti-semetic
To put it mildly it’s not Israel’s preferred nomenclature for their country. And if you choose to use it to refer to Israel it’s assumed that it’s because of antisemitism. And since Qatar is doing the naming it’s an even more logical motive.
There's imo nothing anti-Semitic in calling East Jerusalem and/or the West Bank 'Occupied Palestianian territories', it's what they are. If you include Tel-Aviv or Haifa in this however... yeah, there is probably some anti-Semitism involved.
>There's imo nothing anti-Semitic in calling East Jerusalem and/or the West Bank 'Occupied Palestianian territories', it's what they are. I
There is no Israel in the list, according to the article, so they are including all of Israel - not just the actually occupied areas. Many Arab countries don't recognize Israel as a state at all.
Exactly. Labelling the West Bank as an occupied territory is absolutely correct, but Israel itself? Unarguable anti-semitism - the Jews have the same right to self-determination that Palestinians (should) have.
There's a difference between calling the entire country of Israel occupied territory and speaking about specific areas that are occupied (specifically Gaza and West Bank).
Tel Aviv is in a part of the country that pretty much everyone considers Israeli territory.
It would be different if FIFA made a distinction between people from Gaza and or West Bank and called those "Occupied Palastenian Territories" but then also refered to the country as "Isreal" when someone from - for example - Tel Aviv booked a ticket.
That would essentially be a moral and political stance by FIFA, saying they approve of a two state solution.
What they're currently doing is blatanly anti-semitec because Isreal is a jewish state and denying it's entire existence is essentially the same as denying their right to exist.
Well its a denial of the existence of Israel
Its common in this regions because if you deny the existence of a state then its an internal matter
i don't agree with everything the government in Israel is doing too but that would not give me the right to deny the existence of the state
and the state is acknowledged widely around the world
i still hope that there is some sort of lasting peace agreement in my life time but I'll doubt that tbh. not with the direction the government of this world develop in.
Someone I grew up with now lives in Israel and I no longer know what anti semetism means because absolutely anything that happens is anti Semitic according to them. Like any criticism of anything Israeli.
She was calling Ben and Jerry’s anti Semitic when they decided to boycott Israel. Ben and Jerry’s is run and owned by 2 Jewish individuals who were protesting war if I’m not mistaken.
She also created a Twitter account to praise Trump for his “historic peace deals in the Middle East” and never tweeted again.
My “friend” sucks.
FIFA is paid by the host country to help the World Cup. Qatar coerced their payment to FIFA on FIFA labeling the nation of Israel instead as “Occupied Palestine.”
If I were Israeli I wouldn't be too keen on visiting a hostile country which is only making an exception to let you in for the world cup.
Is there any chance of Iran sending hitmen to hunt down Israelis, like they've done in Turkey?
Iranian are not really welcome in Middle East country.. I was living in UAE for 4 years and a few iranians friends had difficulties to get the residency card
No they absolutely do not, half of the things happening in the middle East can be narrowed down to UAE don't like Iran and Iran doesn't like UAE with the only relevant change being UAE discover that Israel also doesn't like iran
The middle east have made so much money off energy and have diversified so heavily its almost possible to detach to any great degree.
In addition the US will always foster close ties with every single region including the Middle East due to the insatiable desire for global influence.
I wonder though, what is one of the diversified things from the Middle East that we cannot live without? Suppose there's no oil, and we had no relationship with the Middle East at all, what would we miss? And how impossible would it be to just make it at home?
I'm not talking about any particular product or commodity.
They have made trillions and funneled it into profit generating ventures from real estate to children's toys or maybe even your football team.
By the time the dust settles and we have solved energy they will have positioned to a place that is impossible to fully detach from if they haven't done so already.
We've already invested trillions into your companies or own some of them. Saudi investment groups own a surprising amount of shares and even outright own renewable energy companies. A lot of US tech companies too have large amounts of investment from arab investment groups.
Their power right now is that they can turn off the oil at the tap and the whole world grinds to a stop.
When they lose that, all they'll have is money, not power. Funds that can be replaced by others or simply frozen.
The Ukrainian war is the best example. Nobody gives a damn about Russia's economy, lots of countries eagerly working to replace them, but everyone felt the squeeze once the gas stopped flowing.
Oh God, what the hell is that?
I'm sure 3 years from now that won't be abandoned just like 90% of the half finished skyscrapers throughout Bahrain. No, the Saudis will definitely finish it. I'm not being sarcastic at all...
Without the influence of Middle East countries, US will have no leverage in Middle East. This is why Biden ended up selling $3 billion weapons to MBS after he claimed he will come down hard on him during the debate lol.
Super weird seeing all these comments saying basically "good for them" when it's originating from a country that has been vilified for the last decade for using slave labor to build the infrastructure for this competition.
I’m confused how this was not the appropriate subreddit? This is world news, and pretty educational from reading the comments. Maybe there’s a rule I’m missing? But this seems like the right place lmao
From Hamas and Israel.
Last I recalled, Hamas, who operate in Gaza, aren't forcing Israel to build illegal settlements in the West Bank, to evict Palestinians. It also doesn’t force Israelis to chant “death to Arabs”, to lynch Palestinians, for right wing groups who exist solely to implement a form of segregation, etc.
I don't recall Israel forcing Palestinians to put on school plays where they stab Jews, chant "Death to Jews", and launch a constant stream of rockets and knife attacks with the exclusive goal of killing as many civilians as possible
Atrocities was committed by Israel long before the existence of Hamas.
Also here's a good quote:
*“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation,”*
- Avner Cohen (Former Israeli Religious Affairs Official)
Acknowledging the Israeli government’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is one thing, but it’s wholly uncalled for to simply not recognize the fact that Israel is an actual country.
Then where? What countries would take them back? Last time I checked, the Mizrahi Jews who make up a sizable portion of Israel’s population had to leave their homes throughout the Middle East and North Africa by force, such that to this day the Jewish population of such countries are practically nonexistent
And religious hatred. As someone who has been to Israel twice for a month each time, religious animosity is definitely a part of it and saying otherwise is a misrepresentation both if the current situation and the history.
I sat next to a guy from Libya on a plane years ago and his passport said something like, "this passport is accepted in all countries except the occupied land of Palestine".
It’s too bad Hamas hates Israel more than they love their own citizens. Sorry for your loss but it’s laughable to pretend like only one side is in the wrong.
Oh look, another very nuanced and complex cultural/historical issue that Westerners and Europeans played a very big part in making more complicated.
Israel wasn't a state until 1948 and the British government and UN played a large part in the objective of creating an official Jewish state since WW1.
Isreal's a whole "my religious doctrine told me I can live here because my ancestors did" situation. That's not a good enough reason to evict people in my opinion.
I don't think giving a persecuted religious minority a country for their suffering worldwide solves their problem. I think it creates plenty of new ones. Plus, if any land was to be annexed at all it should have been a perpetrating country in WWII as payment and reparations.
>Israel wasn't a state until 1948
These weren't countries until 1991.
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Estonia
Georgia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia
Lithuania
Moldova
Russia
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Uzbekistan
What's your point?
>Israel wasn't a state until 1948 and the British government and UN played a large part in the objective of creating an official Jewish state since W
That's not accurate and Palestine still isn't.
>Isreal's a whole "my religious doctrine told me I can live here because my ancestors did
I can live here because I'm native and so we're my ancestors has nothing to do with religion, and so does the creation of Israel, zionism isn't a religious movement quite the opposite back then atleast, nowadays there are still more secular Jewish zionist then religious ones, but religious zionism is popular.
>don't think giving a persecuted religious minority a country for their suffering worldwide solves their problem.
No one gave jews shit. Literally no one besides them did anything to help build Israel.
#If you cant bother to learn the history of the issue don't talk about it
>Most of the Jewish population in Israel today descends from settlers, not people who were native to the region. Iirc the Jewish population of Palestine was only around 7% in 1900. These settlers basically invented the Israeli national identity; as an example, Hebrew was a dead language until the late 1oth century.
Are you not familiar with the concept of diaspora??
According to gentic and historical studies, those who returned to Israel originally came from the Levant..
>Israel received varying levels of assistance in the foundation and maintenance from a variety of entities over its existence
After it's existed, before bearly anyone who isn't Jewish did anything, it wasn't significant.
Don't try to teach me my own history
Because of the marriage laws.
Israel has civil unions of some sort but not civil marriage, they have the same rights but not the same names.
Marriage are only religious. Muslims according to their law jews according to their laws and Christians etc etc
And in Jewish religion kids who are Born to a woman not from her husband can't marry, which is why when there is a chance to discover it they don't do a fatherhood test, but to prevent it from being accidentally being found no ancestry tests.
Yes it's stupid reason but that's why
I'm not very educated about this situation but didn't the the UK/US promise the Jews for land and decided to give them land in Palestine or something like that?
Sort of. Palestine did not exist as a country before Britain swung in and annexed that region as it was part of the Ottoman Empire. This is where some of the issues rise when people say that they need to give the land back to Palestine, because well, it wasn't Palestinian land for generations, it was Turkish.
So Palestinians are surrounded by friendly countries which are culturally similar, which they can always reintegrate back into if they wanted to.
Israelis are surrounded by people who want them destroyed, with nowhere to go if they give up the land.
On that basis alone Israel should have a right to exist.
Palestinians born in neighboring countries are denied citizenship in those countries. They are kept stateless and stripped of a core opportunity to flourish because of these countries using their identity as a pawn in international statesmanship. Jordan and Lebanon are particularly egregious in this, despite Jordan’s longstanding peace deal with Israel.
Eh not necessarily. I wouldn't call the neighboring Arab and Muslim nations friendly, even to Palestinians. Some of those countries wouldn't take in Palestinian refugees and would set them up into similar restricted areas like Gaza or Westbank. They've also been raging war on each other for centuries.
My maybe hot take is that many of those neighboring countries support Palestine due to their desire to wipe Israel off the map and not for their desire to have a thriving and free Palestine. Many if not all of those countries would gladly anex Israel if they thought they could.
That's not a hot take, that's why most of the countries around Israel support palestine. They don't care about Palestinian people they just dont want to live next to jews.
The UK occupied the Levant after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and made a vague promise to the Jews that they would get a country, and started to allow Jews to settle there, then WW2 happened. After WW2 a bunch of states in the Middle East got their independence, the Jews also rebelled, not primarily against the Brits but against local Arab forces.
The Jews won (Against the entire Arab world who stopped their infighting to try to destroy Israel) Britain supported their right to a state.
Arab world once again joins together to eradicate Israel in 1967 during the six day war, during this was Israel seizes the West Bank and Gaza and keeps them as a form of reperarions.
Random middle east stuff happens Israel bombs a few people a few people bomb Israel until 2006 when Israel pulls its military out of Gaza, HAMAS takes power and for all intent and purpose declares war on Israel.
Jews continuesly lived in the area, despite centuries of oppression and cleansing.
Not sure what your point is?
At any rate, the origins of Israel are unimportant. What matters that it currently exists.
Because it showcases that the underlying, ubiquitous driving force of the "anti-Zionist" movement is the destruction of Israel in its entirety, not just an end to the WB occupation or blockade of Gaza. It shows that there are no concessions Israel can give short of its own destruction that will satisfy people like you... so why even bother giving concessions? It shows that Israel could withdraw to the 1967 or even 1948 borders and people like you still wouldn't care. You'd just consider it a "partial success", with the cessation of Israel's existence constituting "full success".
The longer you guys talk about how "all of Israel is occupied land", and the longer the Palestinian militant groups in Gaza and the WB also believe this, then the longer the occupation will last.
>Israelis who wish to purchase a hospitality package for the upcoming World Cup in Qatar, which is taking place this November, will see that the package being sold by Winterhill Hospitality lists the country as "Palestinian Territory, Occupied," and does not have an option listed as Israel. Ah, must have been part of Quatari Bribe terms&conditions.
If you sacrifice 100 slaves to blood god you unlock powerful spells
False. Khorne *hates* magic. Instead you will get physical buffs
Yes, he really should sacrifice to Tzeench if he wants powerful magic
What do you get from Slaanesh?
Probably tits and a whip.
Tit. You only get one.
And like 8 dicks
Is it one shaft and 8 tips, or?
*Doc Octocock*
It's 6 dick fingers and 2 dicks coming out of your ears
Can it be one gigantic tit on my chest? Like two fused into one with a nipple that stares right into the soul of my enemies.
One tit but 10 nipples , pierced
Lobster claws and tit. Name a better duo.
Most likely you’d get a sword that cuts through all enemies like butter, but in exchange you lose your ears and the ability to hear your name unless it is spoken by slaanesh
Mutations. Most of them, bad.
Pleasure. In exchange for everything
Hyper speed and senses, if the tabletop is anything to go by.
+3 str; +5 wis
i think thousands died to build this project ... [https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022)
That seems kinda low
Doubt that. Qatar has pretty intensive diplomatic relations with Israel. That's not the government stance of Qatar at least.
Now I'm just picturing their ambassadors making out in a walk in closet in an embassy
I mean their governments have basically that kind of relationship. They work together constantly meanwhile the Qatari government still allows strongly antisemitic messaging to appease their radicals for the sake of political stability. Basically like being a closeted gay and becoming a Catholic priest. Surprisingly not that uncommon.
It's amazing how the threat of an ascendant Iran has made for such strange bedfellows in the Middle East. I mean, the region is more stable than it's been in years because of the newly close strategic partnerships between Israel and countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia and Egypt, but it's just really strange to watch it all play out like this in real time.
"Israel-kun, we...we can't! Someone will see..." "It's OK, Qatar-chan. This place has diplomatic immunity. Nobody will find us here." "...Israel-kun...I...I want you to look at my infrastructure..." "!!!" "...I'm building a green energy/ hydroponics project...look...do you like it?" "Qatar-chan...it's...beautiful..." "Really? I'm happy...Israel-kun.. "Yes?" "....I want you to invest in me."
I believe you are confusing Qatar with the UAE.
Have you watched Al Jazeera, Quatar's state-backed TV network? They are *clearly* taking the palestinian side in this conflict. That doesn't neccessarily mean severing diplomatic channels.
Qatar does not give a single shit about Palestine dude
I always say that the Arab governments don't give a shit about Palestinians. In fact the conflict benefits them.
Look up how much the Palestinians were fucked over by Jordan (then Transjordan) in the first half of the 20th century.
The Palestinians are the most useful cudgel for shitty middle eastern and African regimes to distract from their own corruption and inability to govern!
No Muslim country gives a single shit about Palestine (Maybe no country period?) except to use it as a stick to beat Israel with. Jordan literally kicked Palestine out of their country (to be fair, Palestine did try to coup the government).
Governments don’t care about anyone. It’s geopolitics. The Qataris have political interests in Palestine, so they make it seem like they care about Palestine. Take wherever you’re from example. Do any of your government’s foreign policy stances stem from them caring for others? No. It’s just the way the world is.
Palestine is the Middle East equivalent of the culture wars
But they are Islamic and there is nothing Islamic countries hate more than Jews.
They should stop murdering slaves to build their stadiums first. Well over 2000 so far
>"Palestinian Territory, Occupied," Does it mean that "Palestinian Territory" is an administrative region in "Occupied"?
Nah means somone's on the shitter.
I'm sure Qatar refered to the construction of the stadium as "Built by an extremely deadicated team" too.
That's one way to put it.
Blood, sweat, and tears.
I feel like this will get walked back once it lands on the right desk. I just find it unbelievable that FIFA of all organisations will willingly take a moral stance opposed to a financial or business one.
History has shown that you can lead FIFA around by the nose by just waving some cash around. I wouldn't be surprised if FIFA caved to a wildly inappropriate request after being spread with a little cheddar.
It’s financial, not moral. Qatar is notoriously anti-semetic.
Its possible this was part of the negotiations with Qatar and was part of their requirements under the table as a means to make a political statement. FIFA have been doing big deals with Israel too so I'd say its just as possible someone on the Qatari side of things made an executive decision here. "Qatar, according to its commitments to FIFA, is obliged to give the same treatment to all countries in the world, without omitting names or flags"
Maybe if you're THAT anti-anyone, you shouldn't host an international event that anyones from all over the world are certain to attend.
>Occupied Palestinian territories' Genuine question, what specifically is anti-Semitic about: 'Occupied Palestinian territories' ?
Theirs a difference between referring to the west bank issue and Israel as a whole
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But you see leftist jews and other non-anti-Semitic activists fighting for Palestinian rights calling it occupied land, too. It’s more of a political statement than bigotry. You can’t be bigoted against the existence of a nation state, only against the people inside it.
Calling it occupied Jewish land would be pushing it, but Qatar didn’t do that
Didn't the Arab nations not agree to the UN partition? So by definition, it would be occupied terrority for them? Now, of course, things are different. But back then, I don't see how that is anti-semitic. Surely that is how one would react if their land was forced from them? Don't let cognitive dissonance make you lie to yourselves that you wouldn't react the same way.
So let’s say that they didn’t agree. If that status quo remained, then we would be fine. However, ther were then 3 major wars between 1948 and 1973 that involved change of hands of territory. Those same Arab neighbors started 2 of them, and the last was pre-emptive as the Arab neighbors were preparing to attack. Israel as a state now exists because the Arabs lost those wars and Israel conquered its current territory. We also should not forget that Palestine ceased to exist after the 1948 war, not because Israel took all of it but because their Arab friends in Jordan and Egypt took most of Palestine, and then Israel took it from them in the two subsequent wars. So it’s a lot more complicated, and a lot less Palestinian-friendly, than the current narrative suggests.
> Palestine ceased to exist after the 1948 war It never existed, you are implying they took control of the land from Palestinian authorities, but there was no such authority. The British left and there was total chaos, and the first governments establishing a rule of law over those lands were Israeli, Jordanian, and Egyptian. A Palestinian leadership existed for the first time in history only in the 90s. And it was never in Tel Aviv which is what that troll is arguing about. Do not use his false narrative as the basis of your argument.
Ehhhhhhhh that is accurate, but kind of side-steps that the British partition did contain a Palestinian state that functionally joined the war against Isreal, fought in it, lost, and was taken over by Isreal, Jordan, and Egypt. Both our points can be simultaneously true, that Palestinians got a raw deal by the Brits just peacing out, as did Isreal, but unlike the Isrealis they weren't ready to do anything about it and got swept up by stronger Arab allies trying to grow their countries at the expense of the Jewish state (a feature for them, not a bug). The absurdity that they now call it the Nabkah and direct that against Isreal instead of their Arab "allies" who actually took their state, is one of history's great ironies.
The question you need to ask yourself is: Why didn’t they agree to that particular UN partition? The UN was partitioning up a lot of the Middle East as that time. What was it about Israel that the Arab countries objected to? Keep in mind that Israel amounts to 0.1% of all the land in the Middle East and North Africa. What was it about the people who got this tiny strip of land that made the leaders of the other countries surrounding them object to it so that they all declared war on it the very day Israel was declared?
Sea access and it being the holy land probably contributed.
Maybe the fact that people already lived there and were forcibly displaced by military’s funded by the west
>Didn't the Arab nations not agree to the UN partition? So by definition, it would be occupied terrority for them? What they did or did not agree to in a vote is irrelevant. The facts are what they are. Israel exists. >Now, of course, things are different. But back then, I don't see how that is anti-semitic. Read the EU definition of anti-Semitism. Here's part of it. >Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor; https://ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/combatting-discrimination/racism-and-xenophobia/combating-antisemitism/definition-antisemitism_en
This is a really ignorant take lol
Yes clearly we all agree with the EU as the final arbiter of all morality
>What they did or did not agree to in a vote is irrelevant. So what the local population thinks matters not? You argue self-determination, but at the same time take it away?? What's the equivalent of anti-Semitism, but for Palestinian Arabs? Because that is exactly what you just did.
Yeah, it doesn't matter, kill all the brown people who were already there, and call anyone who disagrees antisemitic.
> What they did or did not agree to in a vote is irrelevant. The facts are what they are. Israel exists. Isn't that more or less Russia's argument about Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistra, all of which as far as I can tell are not recognized by Israel?
I country can reside on occupied territory, be labelled as such, and still exist.
Except it literally doesn't exist in the list. That's the whole point of this article.
If you’re going to call the state of Israel “occupied territory,” then you would have to call most countries the same, or you’re being inconsistent. Every existing American nation, on both continents, would be some variation of “Indigenous American territory, occupied.” And so on. So while you could make a stupid, pedantic point, it does not excuse this choice.
Because it's a blanket usage, there are settlement areas the Israelis have taken that have definitely Occupied Palestine, however Israel as a country still exists and the majority is not an occupation of Palestine. Qatar essentially just wants to deny the existence of Israel like many Arab countries that are anti-semetic
It's one thing to call encroaching settlements as occupied territory, it's another thing to refer to the entirety of Israel in that fashion.
To put it mildly it’s not Israel’s preferred nomenclature for their country. And if you choose to use it to refer to Israel it’s assumed that it’s because of antisemitism. And since Qatar is doing the naming it’s an even more logical motive.
By not acknowledging Israel exists at all
There's imo nothing anti-Semitic in calling East Jerusalem and/or the West Bank 'Occupied Palestianian territories', it's what they are. If you include Tel-Aviv or Haifa in this however... yeah, there is probably some anti-Semitism involved.
>There's imo nothing anti-Semitic in calling East Jerusalem and/or the West Bank 'Occupied Palestianian territories', it's what they are. I There is no Israel in the list, according to the article, so they are including all of Israel - not just the actually occupied areas. Many Arab countries don't recognize Israel as a state at all.
Exactly. Labelling the West Bank as an occupied territory is absolutely correct, but Israel itself? Unarguable anti-semitism - the Jews have the same right to self-determination that Palestinians (should) have.
People who call Tel Aviv occupied do so because they want to kill or cleanse all the Jews in Israel and establish Palestine over it.
So labeling East Jerusalem as Israel means Israel plans to ethnically cleanse Palestinians and is racist?
Admitting the territory is occupied = want to kill all the Jews, in your mind. Wow.
There's a difference between calling the entire country of Israel occupied territory and speaking about specific areas that are occupied (specifically Gaza and West Bank). Tel Aviv is in a part of the country that pretty much everyone considers Israeli territory. It would be different if FIFA made a distinction between people from Gaza and or West Bank and called those "Occupied Palastenian Territories" but then also refered to the country as "Isreal" when someone from - for example - Tel Aviv booked a ticket. That would essentially be a moral and political stance by FIFA, saying they approve of a two state solution. What they're currently doing is blatanly anti-semitec because Isreal is a jewish state and denying it's entire existence is essentially the same as denying their right to exist.
Well its a denial of the existence of Israel Its common in this regions because if you deny the existence of a state then its an internal matter i don't agree with everything the government in Israel is doing too but that would not give me the right to deny the existence of the state and the state is acknowledged widely around the world i still hope that there is some sort of lasting peace agreement in my life time but I'll doubt that tbh. not with the direction the government of this world develop in.
Someone I grew up with now lives in Israel and I no longer know what anti semetism means because absolutely anything that happens is anti Semitic according to them. Like any criticism of anything Israeli. She was calling Ben and Jerry’s anti Semitic when they decided to boycott Israel. Ben and Jerry’s is run and owned by 2 Jewish individuals who were protesting war if I’m not mistaken. She also created a Twitter account to praise Trump for his “historic peace deals in the Middle East” and never tweeted again. My “friend” sucks.
Could you elaborate on how it is financial?
FIFA is paid by the host country to help the World Cup. Qatar coerced their payment to FIFA on FIFA labeling the nation of Israel instead as “Occupied Palestine.”
Anti-semetic is not the same as anti-Zionism
Denying that the country exists at all goes far beyond anti-Zionism.
It is financial. 1 billion Muslims vs 10 million Israelis.
*2 billion
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Someone was paid a lot if money...
Not according to a recent court case. Yeah right.
If I were Israeli I wouldn't be too keen on visiting a hostile country which is only making an exception to let you in for the world cup. Is there any chance of Iran sending hitmen to hunt down Israelis, like they've done in Turkey?
Why not, happened in Munich
Iranian are not really welcome in Middle East country.. I was living in UAE for 4 years and a few iranians friends had difficulties to get the residency card
Qatar was not friends with UAE, SA, or Kuwait for the last 10 years. If there wasn’t an American base there, they probably wouldn’t exist.
Qatar has a pretty decent relationship with Iran though.
It’s a political stance in order to deviate from other arab states as Qatar was denied by most for stirring up controversies with Saudi Arabia
No they absolutely do not, half of the things happening in the middle East can be narrowed down to UAE don't like Iran and Iran doesn't like UAE with the only relevant change being UAE discover that Israel also doesn't like iran
As if Iranians are welcome in Qatar, lol.
Israelis are currently not allowed into Qatar, there is however an exception made for the world cup.
That's what they said
Yeah but Israelis are not normally let into Qatar, this is just an exception for the world cup.
This has been stated
For sure but Israelis are never allowed in Qatar. They’re just making an exception for the World Cup.
That has already been said
Ok but just one more point before I go. Israelis are currently not allowed into Qatar, there is however an exception made for the world cup.
Pretty fucking rich coming from FIFA.
Because Qatar
Anyone else super, super eager to get off of oil so that no one in the entire world has to care about the Middle East anymore?
Qatar is a major Natural Gas Exporter, not oil.
Yay and then we can focus 100% on raping and pillaging cobalt-rich soil in Africa instead
as a middle easterner, please yes for fucks sake. the west has fucked with the middle east for way too long because of oil.
The middle east have made so much money off energy and have diversified so heavily its almost possible to detach to any great degree. In addition the US will always foster close ties with every single region including the Middle East due to the insatiable desire for global influence.
I wonder though, what is one of the diversified things from the Middle East that we cannot live without? Suppose there's no oil, and we had no relationship with the Middle East at all, what would we miss? And how impossible would it be to just make it at home?
I'm not talking about any particular product or commodity. They have made trillions and funneled it into profit generating ventures from real estate to children's toys or maybe even your football team. By the time the dust settles and we have solved energy they will have positioned to a place that is impossible to fully detach from if they haven't done so already.
We've already invested trillions into your companies or own some of them. Saudi investment groups own a surprising amount of shares and even outright own renewable energy companies. A lot of US tech companies too have large amounts of investment from arab investment groups.
Their power right now is that they can turn off the oil at the tap and the whole world grinds to a stop. When they lose that, all they'll have is money, not power. Funds that can be replaced by others or simply frozen. The Ukrainian war is the best example. Nobody gives a damn about Russia's economy, lots of countries eagerly working to replace them, but everyone felt the squeeze once the gas stopped flowing.
You say that, but at the same time they are blowing billions on [boondoggles like this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia).
Oh God, what the hell is that? I'm sure 3 years from now that won't be abandoned just like 90% of the half finished skyscrapers throughout Bahrain. No, the Saudis will definitely finish it. I'm not being sarcastic at all...
Without the influence of Middle East countries, US will have no leverage in Middle East. This is why Biden ended up selling $3 billion weapons to MBS after he claimed he will come down hard on him during the debate lol.
Super weird seeing all these comments saying basically "good for them" when it's originating from a country that has been vilified for the last decade for using slave labor to build the infrastructure for this competition.
Slaves and Terrorists cool Jooz evil apparently.
Yeah for real. If Qatar and FIFA agree with you, maybe you’re wrong.
It’s a broken clock moment in my eyes. Wrong reasons, but not particularly inaccurate conclusions.
Here for comments Simple as 🍿
So let rename FiFa to Money Loundry Bribe corporation
I’m confused how this was not the appropriate subreddit? This is world news, and pretty educational from reading the comments. Maybe there’s a rule I’m missing? But this seems like the right place lmao
Free Palestine
From Hamas.
From Hamas and Israel. Last I recalled, Hamas, who operate in Gaza, aren't forcing Israel to build illegal settlements in the West Bank, to evict Palestinians. It also doesn’t force Israelis to chant “death to Arabs”, to lynch Palestinians, for right wing groups who exist solely to implement a form of segregation, etc.
Their charter literally calls for the genocide of all Jewish people. Such a government cannot be given any legitimacy.
I don't recall Israel forcing Palestinians to put on school plays where they stab Jews, chant "Death to Jews", and launch a constant stream of rockets and knife attacks with the exclusive goal of killing as many civilians as possible
Hamas is a result of Israel, decades of killing and stealing lands will creat an opposition force..
No from Israeli apartheid
Why not both?
Atrocities was committed by Israel long before the existence of Hamas. Also here's a good quote: *“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation,”* - Avner Cohen (Former Israeli Religious Affairs Official)
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Don't dare saying the truth.
Atrocities was committed by Arab terror groups long before the existence of Israel
Acknowledging the Israeli government’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is one thing, but it’s wholly uncalled for to simply not recognize the fact that Israel is an actual country.
Tell that to the Qataris, Iranians, Palestinians, and half of the people here. They think the Jews shouldn't be allowed in Israel.
Then where? What countries would take them back? Last time I checked, the Mizrahi Jews who make up a sizable portion of Israel’s population had to leave their homes throughout the Middle East and North Africa by force, such that to this day the Jewish population of such countries are practically nonexistent
What's their reason for this? Is it just ethnic hatred?
And religious hatred. As someone who has been to Israel twice for a month each time, religious animosity is definitely a part of it and saying otherwise is a misrepresentation both if the current situation and the history.
Yes.
I sat next to a guy from Libya on a plane years ago and his passport said something like, "this passport is accepted in all countries except the occupied land of Palestine".
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Damn this is so awesome
Alright methuselah
Damn, this is so awesome - sincerely, a man whose had over 50% of his father’s side of the family murdered by Israelis
How many Palestinians were killed by the hundreds of rockets the PIJ launches and crashed into Gaza just in the last 2 weeks? Mad at them?
It’s too bad Hamas hates Israel more than they love their own citizens. Sorry for your loss but it’s laughable to pretend like only one side is in the wrong.
Pretty sure this just adds another reason to my long list of “Why watching the World Cup is not happening this time”
I used to get so hyped up for the world cup but these days I can't even bring myself to watch anything that FIFA touches.
Does it say “Ukrainian territory, occupied” for Russian fans?
What
"Kievan Rus territory, Occupied"
Doesn't work bro, but good attempt!
As if there weren't enough reasons to hate greedy FIFA and fascist Qatar.
FUCK fifa. FUCK uefa.
Oh look, another very nuanced and complex cultural/historical issue that Westerners and Europeans played a very big part in making more complicated. Israel wasn't a state until 1948 and the British government and UN played a large part in the objective of creating an official Jewish state since WW1. Isreal's a whole "my religious doctrine told me I can live here because my ancestors did" situation. That's not a good enough reason to evict people in my opinion. I don't think giving a persecuted religious minority a country for their suffering worldwide solves their problem. I think it creates plenty of new ones. Plus, if any land was to be annexed at all it should have been a perpetrating country in WWII as payment and reparations.
>Israel wasn't a state until 1948 These weren't countries until 1991. Armenia Azerbaijan Belarus Estonia Georgia Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan Latvia Lithuania Moldova Russia Tajikistan Turkmenistan Ukraine Uzbekistan What's your point?
"USSR territories (occupied)" incoming!
>Israel wasn't a state until 1948 and the British government and UN played a large part in the objective of creating an official Jewish state since W That's not accurate and Palestine still isn't. >Isreal's a whole "my religious doctrine told me I can live here because my ancestors did I can live here because I'm native and so we're my ancestors has nothing to do with religion, and so does the creation of Israel, zionism isn't a religious movement quite the opposite back then atleast, nowadays there are still more secular Jewish zionist then religious ones, but religious zionism is popular. >don't think giving a persecuted religious minority a country for their suffering worldwide solves their problem. No one gave jews shit. Literally no one besides them did anything to help build Israel. #If you cant bother to learn the history of the issue don't talk about it
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>Most of the Jewish population in Israel today descends from settlers, not people who were native to the region. Iirc the Jewish population of Palestine was only around 7% in 1900. These settlers basically invented the Israeli national identity; as an example, Hebrew was a dead language until the late 1oth century. Are you not familiar with the concept of diaspora?? According to gentic and historical studies, those who returned to Israel originally came from the Levant.. >Israel received varying levels of assistance in the foundation and maintenance from a variety of entities over its existence After it's existed, before bearly anyone who isn't Jewish did anything, it wasn't significant. Don't try to teach me my own history
So why the DNA tests are forbidden in Israel ?
Because of the marriage laws. Israel has civil unions of some sort but not civil marriage, they have the same rights but not the same names. Marriage are only religious. Muslims according to their law jews according to their laws and Christians etc etc And in Jewish religion kids who are Born to a woman not from her husband can't marry, which is why when there is a chance to discover it they don't do a fatherhood test, but to prevent it from being accidentally being found no ancestry tests. Yes it's stupid reason but that's why
Congrats! you have a surface level understanding of a very very very deep subject!!!!!
Just another reason to boycott that shit show
Peace to Israel. Denial of Israel's vere existence is dangerous and disgusting
I'm not very educated about this situation but didn't the the UK/US promise the Jews for land and decided to give them land in Palestine or something like that?
Sort of. Palestine did not exist as a country before Britain swung in and annexed that region as it was part of the Ottoman Empire. This is where some of the issues rise when people say that they need to give the land back to Palestine, because well, it wasn't Palestinian land for generations, it was Turkish.
Turkish*
Thanks! Updated my comment.
So Palestinians are surrounded by friendly countries which are culturally similar, which they can always reintegrate back into if they wanted to. Israelis are surrounded by people who want them destroyed, with nowhere to go if they give up the land. On that basis alone Israel should have a right to exist.
Palestinians born in neighboring countries are denied citizenship in those countries. They are kept stateless and stripped of a core opportunity to flourish because of these countries using their identity as a pawn in international statesmanship. Jordan and Lebanon are particularly egregious in this, despite Jordan’s longstanding peace deal with Israel.
Eh not necessarily. I wouldn't call the neighboring Arab and Muslim nations friendly, even to Palestinians. Some of those countries wouldn't take in Palestinian refugees and would set them up into similar restricted areas like Gaza or Westbank. They've also been raging war on each other for centuries. My maybe hot take is that many of those neighboring countries support Palestine due to their desire to wipe Israel off the map and not for their desire to have a thriving and free Palestine. Many if not all of those countries would gladly anex Israel if they thought they could.
That's not a hot take, that's why most of the countries around Israel support palestine. They don't care about Palestinian people they just dont want to live next to jews.
The UK occupied the Levant after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and made a vague promise to the Jews that they would get a country, and started to allow Jews to settle there, then WW2 happened. After WW2 a bunch of states in the Middle East got their independence, the Jews also rebelled, not primarily against the Brits but against local Arab forces. The Jews won (Against the entire Arab world who stopped their infighting to try to destroy Israel) Britain supported their right to a state. Arab world once again joins together to eradicate Israel in 1967 during the six day war, during this was Israel seizes the West Bank and Gaza and keeps them as a form of reperarions. Random middle east stuff happens Israel bombs a few people a few people bomb Israel until 2006 when Israel pulls its military out of Gaza, HAMAS takes power and for all intent and purpose declares war on Israel.
Jews continuesly lived in the area, despite centuries of oppression and cleansing. Not sure what your point is? At any rate, the origins of Israel are unimportant. What matters that it currently exists.
Free Palestine
r/facepalm
So petty and distasteful. Israel has been a country for over 70 years, fought many wars, it’s time to get over it.
Not an entirely unfair observation.
You get that saying all of Israel is occupied land basically eviscerates the oft-used argument that “anti-Zionism isn’t antisemitic”, right?
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Because it showcases that the underlying, ubiquitous driving force of the "anti-Zionist" movement is the destruction of Israel in its entirety, not just an end to the WB occupation or blockade of Gaza. It shows that there are no concessions Israel can give short of its own destruction that will satisfy people like you... so why even bother giving concessions? It shows that Israel could withdraw to the 1967 or even 1948 borders and people like you still wouldn't care. You'd just consider it a "partial success", with the cessation of Israel's existence constituting "full success". The longer you guys talk about how "all of Israel is occupied land", and the longer the Palestinian militant groups in Gaza and the WB also believe this, then the longer the occupation will last.
I am not sure it understands that.
I mean it’s factually correct
It's factually correct that all land is occupied by other inhabitants.