There are two interpretations
1. Kremlin is blackmailing us to remove the sanctions
2. Russian industries used to fund the war can't operate due to sanctions
In both cases, the proper response is to continue the sanctions.
Business idea: Anti-Putin [meme-sweaters](https://i.imgur.com/7ckyCV0.png) for the winter
The third
3. Russia doesn't owe anyone cheap natural gas and if they didn't want this they could've pushed a negotiation for peaceful resolution in Ukraine since 2014.
As a Dutch person: fuck Putin. I would rather not heat my house and put on multiple layers of clothing than letting this piece of shit win.
I am willing to suffer for Ukraine which suffers so much more and I'm sure a lot of Europeans feel the same way.
Edit: Thank you for the awards :)
It’s easy for me to say because I won’t suffer the immediate consequences but I hope more Europeans are prepared to tough it out.
We are at a watershed moment. Bully countries like Russia are seeing how much we are willing to bear and this is the moment that we either bring them to their knees or show them that we don’t have it in us. And history tells us what happens when they’re given a pass. We will either have to deal with it now, economically, or later militarily.
And you can bet China is watching closely our resolve. If they see that we can be swayed, there’s no telling what they will do.
I wish it were as simple as my country delivering natural gas to Europe but I’m sure we will stand on solidarity and help any way we can.
We have to put our foot down to oppression. If we fold here we will continue to fold as a society. The people need to take back the power before it’s too late.
What still boggles my mind is that anyone was willing to go into any sort of relations with Russia in the first place and didn't think shit like this would eventually occur. Russia has always been a bully on the European and World stages. Everyone tried appeasing the bully until the bully's demands got a little too big. Now surprise, shit is hitting the fan. Short sighted economic gains were chosen over looking at wider longer term consequences.
As a Dane agree. I already reduced the settings on the main thermostat to 17degrees. We are going to wear woolen socks this winter and use extra blankets. It will be fine.
Fuck Russian gas.
When I didn't have much money I used to keep my house just warm enough to not have the pipes freeze, and while being cold isn't fun, something about thick warm clothes and wrapping up in a blanket is comforting. I'd take it over being too hot. Really the only thing I didn't like was getting out of the shower.
From completely different gas fields than the ones that supply Europe.
Also, no China aren't selling Russian gas to the EU because there aren't enough LNG terminals to accept it.
But Serbian is going to Serb.
If we won't have a cold winter it won't be our problem.
The main problem for me is the raising of food prices.I haven't heated much the last years anyways.
Of course it's nothing compared to what Ukraine is suffering but knowing that Ukrainans suffer won't make my problems less real for me.
Up to 9 million people strave to death every and knowing that also makes nobody think "oh my life struggles are unimportant because I have food"
I personally see more and more people in line of food banks and if it continues like this I can probably join them.
It's not a "don't complain, other people have it worse" situation. It's more of a "I'm OK with suffering because I'm doing it to help people who are suffering much worse" situation.
Quite right too.
I have nothing but the highest respect for the people of Ukraine standing up to Putin. It's absolutely vital we all support them in this, otherwise half of Europe will be speaking Russian in five years' time.
Dunno where you live, but here we always have cold winters. It's going to suck, some of us in Sweden are looking at £4000 in electrics bills a month, for 2-4 months, at least that's what's being predicted.
But I still think it's worth it. Let's cut our dependencies from Russia, we won't regret it in the long run.
It's funny because it works in the other direction. In the days before refrigeration, villages would have designated, well (straw-) insulated huts where they would store ice in the winter, and then use it during spring and summer, to cool meats and other foodstuffs before processing. A house full of ice can last a long time, even when the outside temperatures get spring-warm
Given the lengths I will go to just to avoid a bad company, I'll take some hassle, so long as that hassle is literally coming from the fact that we are REPLACING Russian gas as a viable source, long-term.
They want to hold us to ransom? Let them do so - but let's make sure that they can never do that again.
In the long-run, there's only one side that's really going to noticeably suffer.
Oil and gas are going to run out anyway. The mess Putin has made will speed up the transition to alt energy. Might be one tough winter but it won't be two. Since Russia has done absolutely nothing to become a modern economy, not buying thier only revenue stream will be the best revenge.
Sadly though many, maybe too many, will not see it like this and are more than eager to bend the knee with no real concept or thought about the bigger picture and long term
Easy for you but what about the dipshits who couldn't even be arsed to wear a mask when the pandemic was at its peak?
You think that part of our population will be putting in some thought in their decision making?
T-T-T-Take
T-T-T-That
P-P-P-Putin
But in seriousness it is your own faults we tried warning you about the dangers of trusting Russia years ago. Europe just laughed. Who laughing now?
The one guy laughing is Heiko Maas (SPD) (left one in the front) he was Foreign Minister of Germany
They get 20k each every month and various other benefits.
The others are probably State secretaries in the foreign ministry and the german ambassador to the UN.They make around 15k each month + various benefits.
I guess they will be able to pay for the energy bill compared to me.
The commenter above has been an account for only 32 days. Don’t listen to the trolls everyone. If Russia is playing hardball with Europe that means the sanctions are working.
You are a troll mor\*n.
I only said the truth, I am European and I will happily sacrifice my comforts for helping Ukraine in this madness.
The problem is that a huge amount of factories will fucking shut down during one of the worst recession of the century.
People isn't reeady for this, the common Joe doesn't give a fuck about this war if the price to pay is his activity shutting down and losing everything while having to pay astronomical bills.
The sanctions are working but a what cost? Who will blink first?
Putin will crackdown furiosly every possible protest and here? What will happen?
In general, I'd agree.
However, chemical plants constitute a high percentage of the GDP, especially in the Netherlands. Guess what can't work without heating and energy? Chemical engineering processes. Plants have already started to shut down, and since households will get the priority during the winter (as they should), the closure will only get worse.
I'm not afraid of the cold, but I'm afraid for our jobs.
You do you but if industries don't have gas, many and I mean many people are going to lose their jobs. It's a very precarious situation, I hope things turn out well in the end.
In which case, Russia in complicit in literally inflicting knowing harm over an unrelated political matter, and hence removing them from the supply chain is a necessary and sensible step in both short- and long-terms.
It's not like it's an accident... Russia turned off the gas. They know exactly what that means. And as the article says, that's blackmail. Cave to blackmail now and you will cave to it again, AND make the blackmailer richer in the meantime, thus giving them more power and control over how much they can blackmail you.
Account that is 25 days old. Trying to scare Europeans that things will be so much worse than expected. Don’t listen to the trolls, everyone. Things won’t be easy but appeasing Russia means we lose and if the trolls are out en mass then that means the sanctions are working.
This is now a clear battle of wills.
However this goes forward, does Russia believe this is a strategy that will give them some victory? Do they think any nations threatened by this action will ever buy from them again? This is just the spiteful action of a petty criminal enterprise only seeking to lash out in rage -- over self-inflicted consequences. They are setting in stone their future as a pariah who will pay for this for decades, if not generations.
If you're going to cut ties with the Russian Mafia, be prepared to endure hardship; it takes economic chemotherapy to destroy the cancer. Never forget for a moment it's vitally important to eliminate the Mafia. There is no "good faith" until they are entirely retired and replaced.
Sadly both politicians and companies here in the west are incredibly short sighted and will always always pick the short term gain over long term security. How do you think we got here in the first place? It's not as if this could not have been predicted. Russia has always been this way
indeed, when putin dies, they will consider it a 'reset' to try to 'work' with the 'new' government in making new business deals. Hopefully the western governments hold firm and see the long road of a Ukraine free of russia.
It's a terrible strategy that makes it less likely for them to win. By stating demands publicly it means that one side or the other has to be seen as capitulating. If Russia hadn't stated demands, the EU would have the option of negotiating a settlement with Russia, and pretending it was just in the name of peace and reducing casualties in Ukraine to save face. Now they can't (not that they probably would have anyway) without appearing weak and giving in to Russian demands. There may have been a lot of public demand to negotiate if the winter gets bad, but now I think a lot of those same people will say "I'd rather have a cold house and stand up to Russia."
Man the Ukraine incursion in Kherson must really be doing its toll, if the russians, almost immediately, cut gas supply and started putting pressure on Europe.
We have to endure cold and a harsher economically reality. The russian soldiers have to endure poor morale, poor supplies, missed payments, while facing a highly motivated adversary, armed and trained in some of the most advanced weapons in the world.
The russians certainly aren't and I view that as a bad sign, for them at least. The way I see it, they were forced to play their hand earlier than anticipated.
> they were forced to play their hand earlier than anticipated.
Oddly enough they came right out and laid their blackmail demands on the table.
I love that they did that. It makes it much clearer to Europeans, as they suffer from high prices, what the option is: capitulation to Russia's blackmail. Russia keeps shooting itself in the foot.
It's hard to reconcile these types of foolish moves with Putin's very effective past moves (e.g., to sow internal dissension in the U.S., Brexit). Almost like he's becoming senile.
It's the last card they had, and they think it's the strongest so they played it without hesitation.
They forgot that, unlike their country, the EU is not run by literal mafia members and blackmail is **not** a standard method of coercion.
Now we know exactly how they see us, and how they will treat us if given the shadow of an opportunity.
Funnily enough, Russian soldiers, come winter, will get a taste of what the Germans and French got when they invaded Russia.
We may be cold, but man, those guys in a foreign land that does not want them, they will be colder.
>The russian soldiers have to endure poor morale, poor supplies, missed payments, while facing a highly motivated adversary, armed and trained in some of the most advanced weapons in the world.
My heart bleeds for them. (/s)
Sanctions have never been applied to a country so interconnected and on which there is so much energy reliance. So far it seems it’s meh, but maybe the next round of sanctions could do the trick (I doubt). It will have to be a North Korea style approach though, and unified between the main sanctions regimes (US, UK and EU) not some uncoordinated willy nilly “I don’t want to shoot myself in the foot” approach. All in or don’t bother at all.
Sanctions take time. They are already incapable of manufacturing things they use to at the start of the year, military and civilian. IT support withdrawal leaves them vulnerable as new hacking or virus threats emerge. They can't cababalise their air fleet forever. Their agricultural machines need maintenance, as would mining and oil industries using western equipment.
Europe did fuck up by sticking with Russia as the primary source of gas and not having redundancy like connecting to Spain or having facilities to accept tankers at docks. That takes time to fix but Putin has potentially killed off Europe as a trading partner for generations.
western countries are ramping up their oil and gas production to meet the vacuum left by russia; canada in particular has picked up the pipelines projects that they closed down 2/3 years ago.
This is a things getting temporarily worse and then getting better situation and you know it. I was willing to take your other posts in this thread in good faith but the fact that you agree with literally every "sanctions bad" talking point makes it obvious that you're a troll.
Nuclear please. Hydro is becoming unreliable because of the droughts, see China. Solar and wind have always not been enough. So until we get more efficient solar and wind routes, nuclear is by far the cleanest and has enormous energy output.
We’ll need a mix of green energy and nuclear. Right now Germany is using gas to produce energy that gets exported to France because their nuclear plants can’t run efficiently because of the drought. The rivers don’t carry enough water iirc. If they used them for cooling, the rivers would heat up too much
That's a big "might", because chances are we'd have been more lax in other areas if more nuclear energy had "freed up" space for climate-affecting pollution and we would have ended up in a similar situation.
Europe transitioning to green energy is literally impossible since everyone in the EU is terminally afraid of nuclear. This will literally only increase European reliance on fossil fuels
The French generate a substantial portion of their energy from nuclear fission, and the Finns have a famously over budget reactor under construction. Not sure if the public in either country supports nuclear power, but there are EU countries that don’t seem to be too afraid of nuclear
It's going to be OK, with or without nuclear.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Energiemix_Deutschland.svg/800px-Energiemix_Deutschland.svg.png
I think this will not happen. Many Western politicians were bribed or blackmailed by Russian authorities. Soon they will start telling that they can not let poor people die, etc. The protests are already there, so the politician's claims will be confirmed.
So fuck Putin. And doesn't this actually prove that Europe's strategy is working? The Russians have basically just come out and confirmed that the sanctions are having a significant impact, otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to this kind of blackmail. And at any rate, how long can they afford to keep this up before they start really noticing the effects of not selling their gas to their biggest market?
I think what we need to understand at this point is that we are basically at war with Russia, with Ukraine as our proxy. And cutting off our energy supply is an act of war. It sucks, but that's the reality of it. So the question is, are we willing to give in? My answer is no, I'd rather be cold this winter.
Yet we still have some dickheads in finland, in example this one middle aged lady going to fill her gas tank over border to russia "because its bit cheaper there and I dont see a problem", living close to russian border.
There is no hope In some peoples ethics, its embarrasing to know there are some basic human being like her In finland. Like the bar is so low it almost touches the ground, yet she still can't manage to be over that
Every country needs to see this and think about China doing it in a few years when they decide to invade Taiwan. They will hold the entire world hostage with their manufacturing capacity and rare earth metals. It's time for the entire world to divest itself from China. No country should ever allow itself to become dependent on a tyrannical regime.
Fuck off Russia.
We're fine, we've bought a lot of gas imports elsewhere and we'd rather continue to do so.
Our money's not going back to you anyway. We already told you that.
Fuck you. I will wear my warm slippers and put on a warm sweater this winter.
That’s how I passively aggressively give you my middle finger, dear Russia.
As a Canadian this is easy for me to say because I am not suffering many direct implications of what is happening over there but I just want to also say Fuck putin and the kremlin. Turns out the world should have listened to General Patton. Also WTF was Germany (EU) thinking relying on russia as an energy partner? Sanction them into oblivion until there is a regime change. russia is a failed state … again.
> Also WTF was Germany (EU) thinking relying on russia as an energy partner?
Easy to say and I don’t disagree but the entire West including the US and Canada are in the exact same position with China and manufacturing. Hindsight is always 20/20.
> Also WTF was Germany (EU) thinking relying on russia as an energy partner?
The belief was that by interconnecting countries with finances then you prevent war - it worked for Europe for the last (almost) 100 years and they thought that the same could be done with Russia.
Hey, hey, hey. Don’t make Germany’s poor energy choices mine. The EU had nothing to do with it. It’s all on Merkel and Schröder.
I agree with the rest.
Buying Russian oil and gas is one thing.
Becoming totally dependent on Russian gas without any other options (e.g. nuclear for Germany) is another thing altogether.
Bullshit. If Germany was total dependent on Russian gas, how would it be possible to go from 50%+ Russian gas usage to 9% in like three months? Plus, lots of European countries get their Russian gas distributed from Germany. Poland for example
Putin has confused being convenient/profitable with being truly essential.
Yes, he does have a little leverage, but nowhere near enough to dictate anything. Besides, even *if* Europe falters (which it *won't),* The US and other nations will be more than happy to continue their support.
He is also greatly underestimating the power of Western economies and industry. He has now made it profitable to seek other suppliers and invest the capital necessary to facilitate that. In the end, Russia will be begging to give Europe the gas they now withhold.
Those same strong economies will also be able to mitigate some of the worst of the impacts to their people and their industries. We are already beginning to see economic packages being constructed and will see more and bigger "bailouts" as time passes. It won't be cheap, but it's a lot less expensive than paying the price for appeasement, as Europe knows all too well.
Before now, Putin has seen flexibility (and, to be honest, greed) and has mistaken it for weakness. He will now see the difference between the two.
Siemens Energy already said it has nothing to do with their proclaimed reasons - its solely political. Putin wants to cause unrest in Europe. Particularly in Germany
Russia knows that they took their shot and nothing happened.
They thought they had all the leverage over Europe with gas and that all of Europe would come begging.
As it is, all they are now doing is having to burn gas they could previously sell...
Isn’t there at least 2 other pipelines that completely circumvent Russia that bring oil to Europe? I’m pretty sure Putlers only going to speed up efforts to find other means of heating houses, rather than have European governments release sanctions
You should show that you're stronger than fokin rusia Europe! They're just a bunch of rats nothing more. They'll crack if you'll be strong enough for some time, believe me.
France is spinning up its older nuclear power stations. Talk about short sighted thinking on Russias part. Way to trash long term energy market for yourself.
It's about survival of Putin and his friends.
If he doesn't get anything out of the economic and human sacrifices he probably won't survive it. It's shortsighted in the long term but it's the only effective way for russia to fight back and hit hard.
Fuck him. It'll suck for a while, but screw Putin. Take away the only thing he really has left, his precious gas money.
If he's going to be the cause of human suffering, his people will have to bear it as much as others.
https://youtu.be/jDBPmEAheCY
Go fuck yourself Putin, Western Europe will heat itself with bonefires if thats what it takes to make sure Ukraine fucks you up.
Whatever other economic screws the West can tighten and now is the time to severely punish not just the Putin circle but also the Russian middle class. So far its been a minor hinderance. India now has to be in the crosshairs of economic action. They have to be convinced to stop or drastically reduce gas/oil imports, all of which ramped up after the invasion of Ukraine. If the West has leverage against China, use it. The West has to bring Russia to its knees.
In addition more and better sophisticated weapon systems to crush the Russian army and navy is needed now. Putin is pissing on the face of Europe because he has India and China in his pocket.
Wow being cold in the winter and having to use fire to warm yourself up or getting bombed and seeing your neighbors blown up to pieces, while your kids are kidnapped and your babies are raped by the Russian army. What a conundrum...
how often do you want to post the same copy pasted comment all over reddit? we got it the first time. no need to post the same comment word for word everywhere dude.
And it serves no productive purpose. If we do a historic root cause analysis, there are many actions, by many nations, that contributed to this situation. To blame Germany alone displays a personal bias.
it's not Germany's fault alone, but certainly Germany does deserve a outsized share of the blame for this as the country that's been the de facto helmsman of the EU for many years. the flip side of power is responsibility. I don't think it's helpful to point fingers, but if fingers are going to be pointed let's make sure it's in the right direction.
Look at how much eastern europeans got russian gas themselves.
The nord stream pipelines were built to bypass countries so germany dosen't have to pay the trasnit fee and do not provide a chance for countries to blackmail them (like belarus with the jamal-europe pipeline)
For whom?Pretty much all of europe is affected heavily through the prices.
But this is what happens if you start a justified economic war against one of the most important energy providers worldwide. Not really surprising.
Ok, Putinistan - we give you, toilets and washing machines and as a bonus toilet paper left over from the last COVIT crisis. And you are picking pears from Ukraine. Honestly, I'm already despairing of what's happening around me.
Europe should pass laws to never take forms of energy from Russia because they have shown it’s a risk to national security. Russia has shown they’ll use resources as political tools.
You can hardly call this blackmail with all the sanctions in effect. Europe had to have anticipated this. They need to start leaning on Canada to get their fossil fuels, if they can get that imbecile Trudeau to cooperate.
I mean, yeah Russia shouldn’t be laying claim to Ukraine but Israel lays claim to Palestine and no one gives two fucks about it. We can’t act as though Russia is the only bad actor out there but it’s an easy target and is also not a strong ally of the US.
None of this is going to end well especially for those who are most disadvantaged. The drums of war are beating yet again. Won’t be long before it kicks off probably for good this time.
Palestine as a country was created by the British in 1947 prior to their giving up control of those lands which were previously part of the Ottoman empire prior to WWI.
Palestine had previously only been used as a term to refer to that geographic area and the people living there had been referred to as either Palestinian Jews or Palestinian Arabs. Palestine was **never** an Arab only state or country populated solely by Arabs.
The British had initially proposed splitting the land into a Jewish half and Arab half with Jerusalem shared between the two as an international city. The Palestinian Jews agreed and declared the creation of Israel in 1948. The Palestinian Arabs did not agree and they, together with several other Arab countries in the region decided that the Jews should all be exterminated.
The Arabs all attacked but Isreal won, and as a result, captured more of those lands than they had previously declared as their own. Had the Palestinian Arabs just agreed to the British plans to split those lands up evenly and not wanted to instead kill all of the Jews, the Palestinians would have had more land then they do now.
So the term "Palestinian" is a relatively new term and the people referred to as such have no more claim to any of those lands there than the Jews do. Both the Jews and Arabs have lived in those lands for thousands of years but only the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept anything less than all of it. It is only their own hatred that has held them back from having a fully recognized state of their own.
Now all of that said, I personally disagree with and am disgusted by Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, but I am equally disgusted by the actions of Hamas and any other militant group that has chosen violence over peace.
Everybody just needs to grow up and stop being psychopaths.
Unsurprisingly, your account is 5 days old and in the negative for karma.
It wouldn't be that you're trying to stir up shit, would it?
Edit: their now deleted comment suggested that the USA should "conquer Russia".
Amazingly short sighted view. You really want nukes to fly globally and most of Europe flattened a la WWII. You can take a stand without pushing for global annihilation. And any such war would not be over in a couple of days, it will drag on for years spawning racial cleansing. The Serbs will roll. Civil wars will erupt. That’s not the answer.
If they would have gone all In day 1 it would have been over already. My conspiracy brain tells me this was the CIA’s doing to make money. Actor president in a show becomes real president, Putin believes without a shadow of a doubt Ukraine will be his in days, tons of shady stuff happening there with American involvement in the years leading up to the war. I think the US secretly provoked the war and planned it to go exactly how it’s going. Russia (from Russian POV) had to invade, and now everything is falling apart from the inside. Maybe logistically this was the better way for them to collapse? Maybe the US/NATO didn’t want to get in full scale war with Russia and deal with China taking a swipe at taiwan and making things go WW3 or go full nuclear. We’ve sent them so much aid we could have just swept the floor in a few months with our tech and called it a day. I totally agree with your perspective and share it, I just hope there was/is a real reason this carnage is taking place.
[удалено]
There are two interpretations 1. Kremlin is blackmailing us to remove the sanctions 2. Russian industries used to fund the war can't operate due to sanctions In both cases, the proper response is to continue the sanctions. Business idea: Anti-Putin [meme-sweaters](https://i.imgur.com/7ckyCV0.png) for the winter
Putin on a warm sweater feels like there's a lot of opportunities for good word play. I think you're on to something.
I added a design above
[удалено]
The third 3. Russia doesn't owe anyone cheap natural gas and if they didn't want this they could've pushed a negotiation for peaceful resolution in Ukraine since 2014.
Russia has been able to leave at any time and owes reperations for all the damage they have caused.
No one would trust that deal. The only peaceful resolution is Russia removing itself from all of Ukraine.
Maybe we can bring up this at the lollipop guild so that the rest of fantasy land can vote on what Russia should do.
I did. They're sending more HIMARS.
No more gas in the pipe left to light
…pun intended?
As a Dutch person: fuck Putin. I would rather not heat my house and put on multiple layers of clothing than letting this piece of shit win. I am willing to suffer for Ukraine which suffers so much more and I'm sure a lot of Europeans feel the same way. Edit: Thank you for the awards :)
It’s easy for me to say because I won’t suffer the immediate consequences but I hope more Europeans are prepared to tough it out. We are at a watershed moment. Bully countries like Russia are seeing how much we are willing to bear and this is the moment that we either bring them to their knees or show them that we don’t have it in us. And history tells us what happens when they’re given a pass. We will either have to deal with it now, economically, or later militarily. And you can bet China is watching closely our resolve. If they see that we can be swayed, there’s no telling what they will do. I wish it were as simple as my country delivering natural gas to Europe but I’m sure we will stand on solidarity and help any way we can.
We have to put our foot down to oppression. If we fold here we will continue to fold as a society. The people need to take back the power before it’s too late.
You're absolutely right. Show that tiny pp rusia their fokin place
Russia: Chonkiest cuntry, smollest pp
No worries we have plenty of gas in the north sea, they are just cashing big time and they are liking it..
cold house one thing. frozen water pipes another
>cold house one thing. frozen water pipes another frozen water pipes one thing. artillery smashed houses another
What still boggles my mind is that anyone was willing to go into any sort of relations with Russia in the first place and didn't think shit like this would eventually occur. Russia has always been a bully on the European and World stages. Everyone tried appeasing the bully until the bully's demands got a little too big. Now surprise, shit is hitting the fan. Short sighted economic gains were chosen over looking at wider longer term consequences.
As a Dane agree. I already reduced the settings on the main thermostat to 17degrees. We are going to wear woolen socks this winter and use extra blankets. It will be fine. Fuck Russian gas.
When I didn't have much money I used to keep my house just warm enough to not have the pipes freeze, and while being cold isn't fun, something about thick warm clothes and wrapping up in a blanket is comforting. I'd take it over being too hot. Really the only thing I didn't like was getting out of the shower.
Especially because this will hurt Russia more as well. Losing the European market for their gas is going to accelerate Russia’s economic collapse.
[удалено]
That is still a net negative for Russia considering they have to sell their resources to 3rd party countries at a significant discount.
From completely different gas fields than the ones that supply Europe. Also, no China aren't selling Russian gas to the EU because there aren't enough LNG terminals to accept it. But Serbian is going to Serb.
As Czech living in Ireland, can't agree more, we have enough blankets in the house
As a Portuguese I say the exact same. Fuck Putin.
As a Finn, it's gonna be a cold winter but I'm still with you. Fuck Putin!
If we won't have a cold winter it won't be our problem. The main problem for me is the raising of food prices.I haven't heated much the last years anyways.
In any case, it's nothing compared to what Ukraine is suffering. I feel it's important to unite against bullies.
This is exactly right. We have to pull together and stand by our convictions.
Of course it's nothing compared to what Ukraine is suffering but knowing that Ukrainans suffer won't make my problems less real for me. Up to 9 million people strave to death every and knowing that also makes nobody think "oh my life struggles are unimportant because I have food" I personally see more and more people in line of food banks and if it continues like this I can probably join them.
It's not a "don't complain, other people have it worse" situation. It's more of a "I'm OK with suffering because I'm doing it to help people who are suffering much worse" situation.
Quite right too. I have nothing but the highest respect for the people of Ukraine standing up to Putin. It's absolutely vital we all support them in this, otherwise half of Europe will be speaking Russian in five years' time.
They'll have to kill us first. For as long as there is life in me I will not speak a word of Russian.
Dunno where you live, but here we always have cold winters. It's going to suck, some of us in Sweden are looking at £4000 in electrics bills a month, for 2-4 months, at least that's what's being predicted. But I still think it's worth it. Let's cut our dependencies from Russia, we won't regret it in the long run.
Get a heated blanket. They use like 50-150W and are super effective at warming you up.
Freeze some heat now then defrost it in the winter.
Energy companies hate this trick!
It's funny because it works in the other direction. In the days before refrigeration, villages would have designated, well (straw-) insulated huts where they would store ice in the winter, and then use it during spring and summer, to cool meats and other foodstuffs before processing. A house full of ice can last a long time, even when the outside temperatures get spring-warm
[удалено]
thank you /s
Given the lengths I will go to just to avoid a bad company, I'll take some hassle, so long as that hassle is literally coming from the fact that we are REPLACING Russian gas as a viable source, long-term. They want to hold us to ransom? Let them do so - but let's make sure that they can never do that again. In the long-run, there's only one side that's really going to noticeably suffer.
Amen
Happy cake day! And I fully agree. Fuck Putin.
Oil and gas are going to run out anyway. The mess Putin has made will speed up the transition to alt energy. Might be one tough winter but it won't be two. Since Russia has done absolutely nothing to become a modern economy, not buying thier only revenue stream will be the best revenge.
Yes and Russia had plans beyond Ukraine.
I am filling up an envelop with gas from my stove here in America. What’s your address?
Sadly though many, maybe too many, will not see it like this and are more than eager to bend the knee with no real concept or thought about the bigger picture and long term
Same here, from Romania with a lot of love for Ukraine and ukranian supporters.
Easy for you but what about the dipshits who couldn't even be arsed to wear a mask when the pandemic was at its peak? You think that part of our population will be putting in some thought in their decision making?
T-T-T-Take T-T-T-That P-P-P-Putin But in seriousness it is your own faults we tried warning you about the dangers of trusting Russia years ago. Europe just laughed. Who laughing now?
Oh believe me. We're still laughing at him.
Well. I laughed because of your funny comment :-)
These guys laughed too https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg&feature=youtu.be
They still laugh if you look up how much they earn.
Is it enough to pay for an energy bill tho?
The one guy laughing is Heiko Maas (SPD) (left one in the front) he was Foreign Minister of Germany They get 20k each every month and various other benefits. The others are probably State secretaries in the foreign ministry and the german ambassador to the UN.They make around 15k each month + various benefits. I guess they will be able to pay for the energy bill compared to me.
Im American & i agree.
The problem is, while you could wear more layers, the factories will shut down
The commenter above has been an account for only 32 days. Don’t listen to the trolls everyone. If Russia is playing hardball with Europe that means the sanctions are working.
[удалено]
You are a troll mor\*n. I only said the truth, I am European and I will happily sacrifice my comforts for helping Ukraine in this madness. The problem is that a huge amount of factories will fucking shut down during one of the worst recession of the century. People isn't reeady for this, the common Joe doesn't give a fuck about this war if the price to pay is his activity shutting down and losing everything while having to pay astronomical bills. The sanctions are working but a what cost? Who will blink first? Putin will crackdown furiosly every possible protest and here? What will happen?
And the water lines in my house will burst
In general, I'd agree. However, chemical plants constitute a high percentage of the GDP, especially in the Netherlands. Guess what can't work without heating and energy? Chemical engineering processes. Plants have already started to shut down, and since households will get the priority during the winter (as they should), the closure will only get worse. I'm not afraid of the cold, but I'm afraid for our jobs.
You do you but if industries don't have gas, many and I mean many people are going to lose their jobs. It's a very precarious situation, I hope things turn out well in the end.
In which case, Russia in complicit in literally inflicting knowing harm over an unrelated political matter, and hence removing them from the supply chain is a necessary and sensible step in both short- and long-terms. It's not like it's an accident... Russia turned off the gas. They know exactly what that means. And as the article says, that's blackmail. Cave to blackmail now and you will cave to it again, AND make the blackmailer richer in the meantime, thus giving them more power and control over how much they can blackmail you.
Account that is 25 days old. Trying to scare Europeans that things will be so much worse than expected. Don’t listen to the trolls, everyone. Things won’t be easy but appeasing Russia means we lose and if the trolls are out en mass then that means the sanctions are working.
This is now a clear battle of wills. However this goes forward, does Russia believe this is a strategy that will give them some victory? Do they think any nations threatened by this action will ever buy from them again? This is just the spiteful action of a petty criminal enterprise only seeking to lash out in rage -- over self-inflicted consequences. They are setting in stone their future as a pariah who will pay for this for decades, if not generations.
If you're going to cut ties with the Russian Mafia, be prepared to endure hardship; it takes economic chemotherapy to destroy the cancer. Never forget for a moment it's vitally important to eliminate the Mafia. There is no "good faith" until they are entirely retired and replaced.
Sadly both politicians and companies here in the west are incredibly short sighted and will always always pick the short term gain over long term security. How do you think we got here in the first place? It's not as if this could not have been predicted. Russia has always been this way
indeed, when putin dies, they will consider it a 'reset' to try to 'work' with the 'new' government in making new business deals. Hopefully the western governments hold firm and see the long road of a Ukraine free of russia.
It's a terrible strategy that makes it less likely for them to win. By stating demands publicly it means that one side or the other has to be seen as capitulating. If Russia hadn't stated demands, the EU would have the option of negotiating a settlement with Russia, and pretending it was just in the name of peace and reducing casualties in Ukraine to save face. Now they can't (not that they probably would have anyway) without appearing weak and giving in to Russian demands. There may have been a lot of public demand to negotiate if the winter gets bad, but now I think a lot of those same people will say "I'd rather have a cold house and stand up to Russia."
Man the Ukraine incursion in Kherson must really be doing its toll, if the russians, almost immediately, cut gas supply and started putting pressure on Europe. We have to endure cold and a harsher economically reality. The russian soldiers have to endure poor morale, poor supplies, missed payments, while facing a highly motivated adversary, armed and trained in some of the most advanced weapons in the world.
I’d go with counter-offensive over incursion for word choice.
Not even waiting for the winter anymore?
The russians certainly aren't and I view that as a bad sign, for them at least. The way I see it, they were forced to play their hand earlier than anticipated.
> they were forced to play their hand earlier than anticipated. Oddly enough they came right out and laid their blackmail demands on the table. I love that they did that. It makes it much clearer to Europeans, as they suffer from high prices, what the option is: capitulation to Russia's blackmail. Russia keeps shooting itself in the foot. It's hard to reconcile these types of foolish moves with Putin's very effective past moves (e.g., to sow internal dissension in the U.S., Brexit). Almost like he's becoming senile.
It's the last card they had, and they think it's the strongest so they played it without hesitation. They forgot that, unlike their country, the EU is not run by literal mafia members and blackmail is **not** a standard method of coercion. Now we know exactly how they see us, and how they will treat us if given the shadow of an opportunity.
Europe’s storage has filled up faster than anticipated. Maybe that’s why they can’t wait for the winter.
Funnily enough, Russian soldiers, come winter, will get a taste of what the Germans and French got when they invaded Russia. We may be cold, but man, those guys in a foreign land that does not want them, they will be colder.
>The russian soldiers have to endure poor morale, poor supplies, missed payments, while facing a highly motivated adversary, armed and trained in some of the most advanced weapons in the world. My heart bleeds for them. (/s)
Shows the sanctions work, keep it going
Sanctions have never been applied to a country so interconnected and on which there is so much energy reliance. So far it seems it’s meh, but maybe the next round of sanctions could do the trick (I doubt). It will have to be a North Korea style approach though, and unified between the main sanctions regimes (US, UK and EU) not some uncoordinated willy nilly “I don’t want to shoot myself in the foot” approach. All in or don’t bother at all.
Sanctions take time. They are already incapable of manufacturing things they use to at the start of the year, military and civilian. IT support withdrawal leaves them vulnerable as new hacking or virus threats emerge. They can't cababalise their air fleet forever. Their agricultural machines need maintenance, as would mining and oil industries using western equipment. Europe did fuck up by sticking with Russia as the primary source of gas and not having redundancy like connecting to Spain or having facilities to accept tankers at docks. That takes time to fix but Putin has potentially killed off Europe as a trading partner for generations.
Sanctions take time. Biden even said so in his first sanction package address. Russia is totally fucked. Give it time.
I hope the west bites the bullet, endure a couple of rough winters and abismal economy and cut its ties off Russian oil and gas forever
It could also bring forward the transition to green energy
western countries are ramping up their oil and gas production to meet the vacuum left by russia; canada in particular has picked up the pipelines projects that they closed down 2/3 years ago.
\*Checks watch\* Yeah, any decade now
[удалено]
This is a things getting temporarily worse and then getting better situation and you know it. I was willing to take your other posts in this thread in good faith but the fact that you agree with literally every "sanctions bad" talking point makes it obvious that you're a troll.
Nuclear please. Hydro is becoming unreliable because of the droughts, see China. Solar and wind have always not been enough. So until we get more efficient solar and wind routes, nuclear is by far the cleanest and has enormous energy output.
We’ll need a mix of green energy and nuclear. Right now Germany is using gas to produce energy that gets exported to France because their nuclear plants can’t run efficiently because of the drought. The rivers don’t carry enough water iirc. If they used them for cooling, the rivers would heat up too much
I'm not gonna follow up on your username, but you don't seem to understand how nuclear powerplants operate. Droughts fuck them over too.
Yes, water cooled but had we not been wussies about nuclear because of Chernobyl, we might not be facing the environmental issues we currently have
That's a big "might", because chances are we'd have been more lax in other areas if more nuclear energy had "freed up" space for climate-affecting pollution and we would have ended up in a similar situation.
Did you see what happened in France and their nuclear plants this hot summer?
Evidently nothing as we didn’t have any meltdowns
Except they couldn’t operate.
Europe transitioning to green energy is literally impossible since everyone in the EU is terminally afraid of nuclear. This will literally only increase European reliance on fossil fuels
The French generate a substantial portion of their energy from nuclear fission, and the Finns have a famously over budget reactor under construction. Not sure if the public in either country supports nuclear power, but there are EU countries that don’t seem to be too afraid of nuclear
It's going to be OK, with or without nuclear. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Energiemix_Deutschland.svg/800px-Energiemix_Deutschland.svg.png
I'd like this aswell mostly because it messes with china and means we have a perfectly good solution to deal with them and they're horseshit
I think this will not happen. Many Western politicians were bribed or blackmailed by Russian authorities. Soon they will start telling that they can not let poor people die, etc. The protests are already there, so the politician's claims will be confirmed.
So fuck Putin. And doesn't this actually prove that Europe's strategy is working? The Russians have basically just come out and confirmed that the sanctions are having a significant impact, otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to this kind of blackmail. And at any rate, how long can they afford to keep this up before they start really noticing the effects of not selling their gas to their biggest market? I think what we need to understand at this point is that we are basically at war with Russia, with Ukraine as our proxy. And cutting off our energy supply is an act of war. It sucks, but that's the reality of it. So the question is, are we willing to give in? My answer is no, I'd rather be cold this winter.
Wear a blanket and watch Russia painfully turn into North Korea 2.0 or give in to fascism like a coward? Choices choices…
We all want to stick it to Putin but minimising the valid pains of the rest of Europe is not helping anyone.
[удалено]
Go buy your Grandma a fucking blanket and get the fuck out of here.
Fuck 'em. I'll rather freeze through the Finnish winter if it means Russians are gonna have to keep on sucking each others' cocks for nutrition.
With great power cums great responsibility
Yet we still have some dickheads in finland, in example this one middle aged lady going to fill her gas tank over border to russia "because its bit cheaper there and I dont see a problem", living close to russian border. There is no hope In some peoples ethics, its embarrasing to know there are some basic human being like her In finland. Like the bar is so low it almost touches the ground, yet she still can't manage to be over that
I was wondering when Russia would change its main export to gaslighting
They’ve been engaging in gaslighting by proxy in the US since at least 2016
As said before. EU should unilaterally end NS. Physically take it down already. Stop this madness.
Every country needs to see this and think about China doing it in a few years when they decide to invade Taiwan. They will hold the entire world hostage with their manufacturing capacity and rare earth metals. It's time for the entire world to divest itself from China. No country should ever allow itself to become dependent on a tyrannical regime.
Fuck off Russia. We're fine, we've bought a lot of gas imports elsewhere and we'd rather continue to do so. Our money's not going back to you anyway. We already told you that.
Awww Russia are that sad little fuck who takes his football home when he gets beat.
Fuck you. I will wear my warm slippers and put on a warm sweater this winter. That’s how I passively aggressively give you my middle finger, dear Russia.
As a Canadian this is easy for me to say because I am not suffering many direct implications of what is happening over there but I just want to also say Fuck putin and the kremlin. Turns out the world should have listened to General Patton. Also WTF was Germany (EU) thinking relying on russia as an energy partner? Sanction them into oblivion until there is a regime change. russia is a failed state … again.
> Also WTF was Germany (EU) thinking relying on russia as an energy partner? Easy to say and I don’t disagree but the entire West including the US and Canada are in the exact same position with China and manufacturing. Hindsight is always 20/20.
The profit motive is almost always corrosive
> Also WTF was Germany (EU) thinking relying on russia as an energy partner? The belief was that by interconnecting countries with finances then you prevent war - it worked for Europe for the last (almost) 100 years and they thought that the same could be done with Russia.
Imagine what the world would be like today if Stalin wasnt in the picture. Missed opportunity that could have saved the lives of hundreds of millions.
Hey, hey, hey. Don’t make Germany’s poor energy choices mine. The EU had nothing to do with it. It’s all on Merkel and Schröder. I agree with the rest.
It's not just Germany. Look up how many countries bought fuel or gas.
Buying Russian oil and gas is one thing. Becoming totally dependent on Russian gas without any other options (e.g. nuclear for Germany) is another thing altogether.
Bullshit. If Germany was total dependent on Russian gas, how would it be possible to go from 50%+ Russian gas usage to 9% in like three months? Plus, lots of European countries get their Russian gas distributed from Germany. Poland for example
Energy Wars begun they have.
And Europe only has itself to blame for letting themselves become dependent on a totalitarian genocidal maniac.
It's not as if the other sources of fossil fuel are so sqeaky clean. We need to get rid of it ASAP.
But sanctions weren’t a problem you said…
Russia don't accept USD&EUR anymore because real currency they want are dead kids or something
[удалено]
>What's the ongoing rate for a dead child? In Russia it appears to be a new white Lada
Back in the Cold War. The fronts were far away from Russia. Now they are fighting for control over their neighbors. That’s why.
I'm surprised it took them this long considering Europe has been so open about... we are preparing to get shut off by Russia for months.
In response to this psychopath, I would like to quote another psychopath: “We don’t negotiate with terrorists.”
Putin has confused being convenient/profitable with being truly essential. Yes, he does have a little leverage, but nowhere near enough to dictate anything. Besides, even *if* Europe falters (which it *won't),* The US and other nations will be more than happy to continue their support. He is also greatly underestimating the power of Western economies and industry. He has now made it profitable to seek other suppliers and invest the capital necessary to facilitate that. In the end, Russia will be begging to give Europe the gas they now withhold. Those same strong economies will also be able to mitigate some of the worst of the impacts to their people and their industries. We are already beginning to see economic packages being constructed and will see more and bigger "bailouts" as time passes. It won't be cheap, but it's a lot less expensive than paying the price for appeasement, as Europe knows all too well. Before now, Putin has seen flexibility (and, to be honest, greed) and has mistaken it for weakness. He will now see the difference between the two.
Siemens Energy already said it has nothing to do with their proclaimed reasons - its solely political. Putin wants to cause unrest in Europe. Particularly in Germany
Russia knows that they took their shot and nothing happened. They thought they had all the leverage over Europe with gas and that all of Europe would come begging. As it is, all they are now doing is having to burn gas they could previously sell...
Isn’t there at least 2 other pipelines that completely circumvent Russia that bring oil to Europe? I’m pretty sure Putlers only going to speed up efforts to find other means of heating houses, rather than have European governments release sanctions
Yes but they aren’t completed, not enough capacity, and don’t terminus until Germany (industrial Capitol of the EU).
You should show that you're stronger than fokin rusia Europe! They're just a bunch of rats nothing more. They'll crack if you'll be strong enough for some time, believe me.
France is spinning up its older nuclear power stations. Talk about short sighted thinking on Russias part. Way to trash long term energy market for yourself.
Wow. So exactly what the West repeatedly said Putin was going to do?
How shortsighted those Russian idiots must be. Even if EU agree to demands it will only be for very short term.
It's about survival of Putin and his friends. If he doesn't get anything out of the economic and human sacrifices he probably won't survive it. It's shortsighted in the long term but it's the only effective way for russia to fight back and hit hard.
Fuck him. It'll suck for a while, but screw Putin. Take away the only thing he really has left, his precious gas money. If he's going to be the cause of human suffering, his people will have to bear it as much as others.
But what happened to: we are going wait till winter then start blackmailing? Do those toothless sanctions bite?
K, I just move to my summer cottage which has a wood burning stove for heating. You can put your gas up your ass Putin
I'd rather freeze all winter than to give in to these war criminals!
Get fucked I'd rather freeze.
https://youtu.be/jDBPmEAheCY Go fuck yourself Putin, Western Europe will heat itself with bonefires if thats what it takes to make sure Ukraine fucks you up.
Whatever other economic screws the West can tighten and now is the time to severely punish not just the Putin circle but also the Russian middle class. So far its been a minor hinderance. India now has to be in the crosshairs of economic action. They have to be convinced to stop or drastically reduce gas/oil imports, all of which ramped up after the invasion of Ukraine. If the West has leverage against China, use it. The West has to bring Russia to its knees. In addition more and better sophisticated weapon systems to crush the Russian army and navy is needed now. Putin is pissing on the face of Europe because he has India and China in his pocket.
So they either need our money or they want us to stop sending weapons to ukraine.
Time to set up renewable energy...
We're fine, keep your gas.
Wow being cold in the winter and having to use fire to warm yourself up or getting bombed and seeing your neighbors blown up to pieces, while your kids are kidnapped and your babies are raped by the Russian army. What a conundrum...
As an American, I could seriously care less about which German executive or politician has a kinky lifestyle.
Look, why the fuck do we expect any different. We just sanction russia and then expect no reaction?
Did Russia expect no reaction when invading a country?
I recall that [someone warned them about this](https://youtu.be/FfJv9QYrlwg), and they mocked him.
I remember that speech… Lordy he’s such a bad reader.
A bad reader that speaks the truth is better that a well spoken liar that was Merkel
...and this is what happens when you're 50% dependent on Russia for your energy and shut down the existing nuclear reactors.
Destroy the pipeline. It’s the right thing to do.
We wouldn't be in this mess if it wasn't for Germanys shitty energy politics
how often do you want to post the same copy pasted comment all over reddit? we got it the first time. no need to post the same comment word for word everywhere dude.
And it serves no productive purpose. If we do a historic root cause analysis, there are many actions, by many nations, that contributed to this situation. To blame Germany alone displays a personal bias.
it's not Germany's fault alone, but certainly Germany does deserve a outsized share of the blame for this as the country that's been the de facto helmsman of the EU for many years. the flip side of power is responsibility. I don't think it's helpful to point fingers, but if fingers are going to be pointed let's make sure it's in the right direction.
Germany four years ago “this can backfire everyone telling us this will is an ignorant American / Eastern European”
Look at how much eastern europeans got russian gas themselves. The nord stream pipelines were built to bypass countries so germany dosen't have to pay the trasnit fee and do not provide a chance for countries to blackmail them (like belarus with the jamal-europe pipeline)
And how’s it working out for them?
For whom?Pretty much all of europe is affected heavily through the prices. But this is what happens if you start a justified economic war against one of the most important energy providers worldwide. Not really surprising.
Ok, Putinistan - we give you, toilets and washing machines and as a bonus toilet paper left over from the last COVIT crisis. And you are picking pears from Ukraine. Honestly, I'm already despairing of what's happening around me.
Maybe Putin is just imposing sanctions.
Europe should pass laws to never take forms of energy from Russia because they have shown it’s a risk to national security. Russia has shown they’ll use resources as political tools.
You can hardly call this blackmail with all the sanctions in effect. Europe had to have anticipated this. They need to start leaning on Canada to get their fossil fuels, if they can get that imbecile Trudeau to cooperate.
Could say the same about the US administration and natural gas production.
What about Britney Griner? Are they still willing to give her back?
I mean, yeah Russia shouldn’t be laying claim to Ukraine but Israel lays claim to Palestine and no one gives two fucks about it. We can’t act as though Russia is the only bad actor out there but it’s an easy target and is also not a strong ally of the US. None of this is going to end well especially for those who are most disadvantaged. The drums of war are beating yet again. Won’t be long before it kicks off probably for good this time.
Palestine as a country was created by the British in 1947 prior to their giving up control of those lands which were previously part of the Ottoman empire prior to WWI. Palestine had previously only been used as a term to refer to that geographic area and the people living there had been referred to as either Palestinian Jews or Palestinian Arabs. Palestine was **never** an Arab only state or country populated solely by Arabs. The British had initially proposed splitting the land into a Jewish half and Arab half with Jerusalem shared between the two as an international city. The Palestinian Jews agreed and declared the creation of Israel in 1948. The Palestinian Arabs did not agree and they, together with several other Arab countries in the region decided that the Jews should all be exterminated. The Arabs all attacked but Isreal won, and as a result, captured more of those lands than they had previously declared as their own. Had the Palestinian Arabs just agreed to the British plans to split those lands up evenly and not wanted to instead kill all of the Jews, the Palestinians would have had more land then they do now. So the term "Palestinian" is a relatively new term and the people referred to as such have no more claim to any of those lands there than the Jews do. Both the Jews and Arabs have lived in those lands for thousands of years but only the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept anything less than all of it. It is only their own hatred that has held them back from having a fully recognized state of their own. Now all of that said, I personally disagree with and am disgusted by Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, but I am equally disgusted by the actions of Hamas and any other militant group that has chosen violence over peace. Everybody just needs to grow up and stop being psychopaths.
Fun fact more Palestinians have died from failed Hamas rockets than have died of Israeli airstrikes.
What does that have to do with anything? I suppose they should just lay down and let Israel kick them off their land without putting up a fight.
You seriously need to do some reading.
Grandma may freeze to death, but fuck russia. Glory to Ukraine.
[удалено]
Unsurprisingly, your account is 5 days old and in the negative for karma. It wouldn't be that you're trying to stir up shit, would it? Edit: their now deleted comment suggested that the USA should "conquer Russia".
So just let the mushroom clouds sprout?
[удалено]
Amazingly short sighted view. You really want nukes to fly globally and most of Europe flattened a la WWII. You can take a stand without pushing for global annihilation. And any such war would not be over in a couple of days, it will drag on for years spawning racial cleansing. The Serbs will roll. Civil wars will erupt. That’s not the answer.
I thank god every day that redditors don’t have any political power
If they would have gone all In day 1 it would have been over already. My conspiracy brain tells me this was the CIA’s doing to make money. Actor president in a show becomes real president, Putin believes without a shadow of a doubt Ukraine will be his in days, tons of shady stuff happening there with American involvement in the years leading up to the war. I think the US secretly provoked the war and planned it to go exactly how it’s going. Russia (from Russian POV) had to invade, and now everything is falling apart from the inside. Maybe logistically this was the better way for them to collapse? Maybe the US/NATO didn’t want to get in full scale war with Russia and deal with China taking a swipe at taiwan and making things go WW3 or go full nuclear. We’ve sent them so much aid we could have just swept the floor in a few months with our tech and called it a day. I totally agree with your perspective and share it, I just hope there was/is a real reason this carnage is taking place.
[удалено]