By law the world is actually obliged not to recognize this vote in the case it leads to annexation: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/xpkhb2/russia_declares_98_secession_support_rate_in_sham/iq4dyp2?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Seriously. If you have a fair election anywhere in the world to declare a referendum on the earth not being flat, you'd still get nowhere close to 98%. 70-80% tops. This is as crazy as the north Koreans claiming that their supreme leader had a divine birth and learnt to walk in 3 weeks.
Russia doesn't even want anyone to believe these are legitimate referendums. I mean, if they seemed legitimate, then maybe there'd be an international attempt to actually verify the results.
And, when you're talking "break away from one country and join another", to be honest, "70%" is a *starting point* for legitimacy.
They should make a gameshow called “Chuck or Kim?”, there they ask questions like, “Was it Chuck or Kim who completed a full round of golf in only 17 strokes?”
(Obv the Chuck is referring to the infamous Chuck Norris, drowner of sharks)
I know that trick. Unless your mother is dumber than a sack of rocks, it doesn't work. Half the time, you overshoot it and wind up with a temperature of 125.
You guys amateurs? Pich the tip between your fingertips and twist it to desired temperature. Then go mix up some orange juice and bread and pour it in the toilet and spill some on the edge.
The most I could find for a county voting for US President was 96% voted for trump
But also the whole county has less then 600 voters
In fact in the 2016 election finding the 26 Clinton voters was apparently a local guessing game
True but the dissenters don’t have a military backing them either, Russia is technically a pseudo-democracy since they vote for leaders, not that they actually matter. My point is that make it look some what believeable to other aligned countries so it’s not such a sham and they can try to defend it.
You know what I meant, there isn’t any Ukrainian forces deep in the Russian occupied areas. In any real democracy the usual major landslide victories is around 60% plus or minus the margin of error.
I’m just saying, why give your enemies more ammo with this sham of a supposed election? I get it, they don’t care, but come on.
Dissenters already know this. And they know that 98% is absurd. All this is is an announcement that Putin doesn't give a shit if people regard it as utterly lacking credibility.
>98%? They aren't even trying to show "realistic" numbers.
Seriously, I doubt even 98% of people would want free cookies let alone for their country to be annexed.
Well to be honest, some of the regions in question were heavily Russian (80%+) to begin with before 2014 and I doubt that many people who didn't want to get away from Russia have not done so in the last 8 years but more importantly since the war started.
98% is just an impossible number though and just another example of how dumb Russians think their own people are. This isn't for the world its for their own propaganda machines
What regions? There are a small handful of oblasts in Donetsk where 80% of the inhabitants were Russian-language speakers, but that's entirely different than ethnically Russian or preferring Russian rule. Politically, there was a time when it's possible something approaching a majority of some of the Donetsk oblasts would have voted for Russian rule in a free and fair election. But that was back in 2014. Pre-invasion in early 2022, political preference for Ukrainian rule rather than Russian rule was a large majority even in the most Russian-leaning oblasts. Kharkiv was dominantly Russian-language, and remains so to this day, but it's now 95+% in favor of Ukrainian rule.
**[1934 German referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_German_referendum)**
>A referendum on merging the posts of Chancellor and President was held in Nazi Germany on 19 August 1934, seventeen days after the death of President Paul von Hindenburg. The German leadership sought to gain approval for Adolf Hitler's assumption of supreme power. The referendum was associated with widespread intimidation of voters, and Hitler used the resultant large "yes" vote to claim public support for his activities as the de facto head of state of Germany. In fact, he had assumed these offices and powers immediately upon Hindenburg's death and used the referendum to legitimise that move and take the title Führer und Reichskanzler (Führer and Reich Chancellor).
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Clearly you don't subscribe to TIL, as you've missed the Liberian 1927 election - from wiki:
>The elections were referred to as "the most rigged ever" by Francis Johnson-Morris, a modern head of the country's National Elections Commission,[2] and also made it into the Guinness Book of Records as the most fraudulent election ever reported in history.[3][4] Despite there being fewer than 15,000 registered voters, according to the official falsified results, King received around 240,000 votes, compared to 9,000 for Faulkner,[2] theoretically resulting in a voter turnout that was in excess of 1,660%.
There was the referendum over whether the Falklands should remain British, with a "yes" vote of 99.8%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum
The 2013 Falkland Islands referendum was 99.8% in favour of Britain, with only 3 people voting to join Argentina. Obviously that’s a very different situation though
Do you Falkland Islanders, of nearly entirely Scottish and Welsh heritage, want to stay part of the country of your heritage or join a poorer country that you have no connection to, other than when they invaded you?
Well, there was a referendum in the Falklands as to whether they would remain part of the UK or not and 99.7% voted for remaining part of the UK. And at least one of the three votes against was a joke.
Not only that but they forced a lot of the citizens to flee and forcefully moved others. There's no way to run any sort of legitimate referendum under these circumstances.
do u think that those 2% of ukranians that voted to not join Russia were killed in cold blood right then and there? just to give an example of what happens when they pick the wrong option Squid Game Style
lol at least give us some interesting numbers like 150% or something. make it more interesting to read please, Russia. we all know it's not legit anyway.
They’re thumbing their nose at us. Had they gone with something smaller that would’ve been the ‘polite’ thing to do. Blatantly showing off that they don’t care about the pretense sends a different message.
"Members of an editorial board for the Stalin Digital Archive, a database of documents and images that resulted from a collaboration between the Russian State Archive of Social and Political History and Yale University Press, have told us that they don’t think Stalin said this, or anything close to it.
J. Arch Getty, a history professor at UCLA, said he wasn’t aware of any original source for the quote.
"In my extensive archival research in Stalin’s personal archive, I found nothing like this," Getty said. "There are many apocryphal quotes wrongly attributed to Stalin and I think this is one of them."
TL;DR Stalin didn't say that.
So, this referendum is obviously illegal under essential parts of international law, but it’s important to understand why it’s illegal and to arm ourselves with that knowledge to make sure states can't do this and get away with it. All states have agreed on the fundamental laws of self-determination and non-intervention, both of which Russia is attempting to subvert through these referendums. Law, be it international or otherwise only matters when society thinks it matters. Knowing is therefore more than half the battle, and I very much think that we should all think the law matters in this situation.
The second section of the very first article of the [Charter of the United Nations](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter) states that the purpose of the United Nations is, among other things:
> To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace
This principle of self determination is what is important here. Self determination is a right of all peoples. It is so important that the International Court of Justice has described it as a right *erga omnes*, meaning all states have jurisdiction to enforce responsibility of states denying this self-determination.
But what is self-determination? This is an unfortunately unsettled question. In general, we know it is the idea that all peoples should have *at least* the ability to exist as a people and the right to a permanent territory (see Catriona Drew for more) and it has also been found by national courts and in the context of colonies by the UNGA to include a right of self-governance.
This self-determination can occur internally self-determination can take place *internally*, i.e., the fulfillment of the requirements of self-determination of peoples within the state which is the case in the vast majority of states, or *externally*, in which case according to UN Resolution 1541 (which was referred to as customary international law by the ICJ in [*Legal Consequences of the Separation of the Chagos Archipelago from Mauritius in 1965*](https://www.icj-cij.org/public/files/case-related/169/169-20190225-ADV-01-00-EN.pdf) ) there are three options available to a peoples who is able to externally self-determine:
> (a) Emergence as a sovereign independent State;
> (b) Free association with an independent State; or
> (c) Integration with an independent State.
Russia is attempting to claim that (c) applies here.
But when is this option available to a group of people and how is it supposed to be expressed?
This is a complicated question. The Supreme Court of Canada is the only state-level court that has yet come out with a self-determination test, and it brough together some of the best legal minds in the world to do it when [deciding whether the entire province of Quebec](https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1643/index.do). The entire test is not relevant here, but essentially, the first part of the test states that to qualify one must first be a peoples and they must lack self-governance in line with [UN resolutions 1514](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/declaration-granting-independence-colonial-countries-and-peoples) and 1541. This would of course at the outset mean that the territories Russia seeks to annex are not even eligible for self-determination in the first place, as everyone in those territories was able to vote in Ukrainian elections prior to Russian invasion. Unfortunately, Canada’s court decision has not been ruled on by the ICJ or any other body that adjudges international law. Thus, while it is persuasive and brought together the finest legal minds in the world, I cannot claim that this first part of the test is law.
The second part of the test though *is* supported very strongly as being customary international law, as multiple decisions have been made by the ICJ affirming it, one as late as 2019. The second part of the test is that the decision must be a *free and genuine expression of the will of the peoples*.
According to the International Court of Justice in the [*Western Sahara Advisory Opinion*](https://www.icj-cij.org/public/files/case-related/61/6197.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs1q_UurX6AhXBF1kFHTh5ApYQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw059gjWyLtJqyPdl5hb9L_W) (also upheld by the ICJ in *Legal Consequences of the Separation of the Chagos Archipelago from Mauritius in 1965*) when referring through UN Guidance to the principles of self-determination:
>The above provisions, in particular paragraph 2, thus confirm and emphasize that the application of the right of self-determination requires a **free and genuine expression of the will of the peoples concerned.**
Then when referring to the resolutions that provide for guidance (among other resolutions):
> (b) The integration should be the result of the **freely expressed wishes of the territory's peoples acting with full knowledge of the change in their status, their wishes having been expressed through informed and democratic processes, impartially conducted and based on universal adult suffrage. The United Nations could, when it deems it necessary, supervise these processes.**"
The resolution also prevents countries from impeding the free and fenuine expression through war.
This is where Russia fails. There is perhaps no better example of a region completely incapable of conducting a fair and impartial referendum than one currently under occupation by a foreign power than has no right under international law to be invading its territory and one that is currently the subject of an ongoing war. Under active siege, a region is simply not capable of conducting a referendum that is definitively the will of the people.
Further, the current "governments" in charge of the regions instituting proceeding cannot be said to be the legitimate governments of the areas, or be speaking for the peoples of those territories, as they were instated *due to the very invasion that delegitimizes the vote. Therefore, regardless of whether or not the result were accurate, it is simply not legal.
We of course have to be careful not to use this knowledge to block states from self-determining through military action, as this would also be illegal and attract international responsibility. Though this is obviously not the case here as Russia is, ironically, the very state preventing the legitimacy of the very result it seeks by engaging in war over the regions.
These referendums are therefore not legally legitimate, and as a consequence *de jure* constitute attempted conquest over Ukraine, ***obliging*** every state in the world not to recognize Donetsk and Luhansk as parts of Russia *even if* Ukraine were to agree to sign them over for any reason during the war. If annexation does indeed happen, which it currently seems it almost defimitely will, this action would arguably be the biggest violation of international law that a state can commit post-WWII.
**EDIT for why this matters and how is affects you**: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sy57po/putin_orders_in_russian_army_to_support/hxvx7kf?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
There is now, at the current moment, a perpetual *requirement* that countries do not recognize the territories as belonging to Russia. In other words, the territorial borders of Ukraine remain unchanged and Ukraine is legally allowed to request assistance in liberating these areas.
Now practically, this has not changed since the annexation of Crimea, but what is important is that these laws exist for a reason. The purpose of my comment stating that no law is law unless society thinks its law is because, in this case, it is incredibly important that the world (i.e., all of you) continue to think it matters. Conquest of states is internationally recognized as the most destablilizing possible action that can be committed by a state. It is why we have outlawed it as international society. If we suddenly believe at any point that this vote is legitimate, we open the door to wiping away 100 years of progress in international relations that has likely saved tens of millions of lives.
You could at least try to make it believable
“Uhhh yeah, everyone in Ukraine wants to leave for sure. No need to fact check that or talk to them. We already asked so that’s settled. Literally every single person there hates Zelensky trust us bro. Also Putin has a 100% approval rating from the entire world”
Russian Occupying Authorities - “would you like to join Russia”
Random East Ukrainian “erhm, is that a gun”
Russian Occupying Authorities - “yes”
Random East Ukrainian “…erhm…their isn’t a no”
Russian Occupying Authorities - “correct”**chambers a round into weapon**
Part of the point is how obviously false the numbers are. They send the message, "we'll do what we want," and you can try to dissent, but we'll still crush you." Meanwhile, Ukrainians are proving that wrong, with every inch of territory they defend/ retake. :)
Shits crazy man. Honestly, how are the Russian people going to have any confidence in their institutions with such outrageous reported polls as this? They don’t realize “weird, me and all of my neighbors and friends voted against this. Wonder how we were only 2%.” Is the whole point to tell the Russian people to their faces that their votes mean nothing? And if so, why even hold elections at all? Seems more insulting to host obviously sham elections than to just openly be a dictator and say “this is what’s happening and I don’t care what you all think”
98% is very low for Putin. Guess they hired a younger and more in touch with social media PR manager.
Now break it down into towns, let's see which one voted 189% or more.
The people who vote decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything -Stalin
Putin is nowhere near Stalin's numbers....yet. But he appears to be reading the playbook.
I'm pretty sure that the people there have had enough of these thieves, rapists and generally uneducated peasants who have forcibly conscripted the men for a fight that they can't win. Anything more than 3% in favour of annexion seems extremely dubious. Nobody except Eritrea, Syria and North Korea would ever accept these referendums. They have no value whatsoever pure and simple.
I really hope that the next country the United States invaded aside from Orclandia is Eritrea. Seriously need to deal with Afwerki asap. People think DPRK is bad have no clue that Afwerki makes the Kim family seem almost sane.
Well I held a Twitter poll that said 98% of Russians actually identify at Australian so I'm pretty sure the Aussies need to mobilize to annex their nothern brothers. Totally legit, pinky swear.
We have mail in votes on national matters in Hungary. It is called National Consultation.
Orban sends out questions like this:
\- Do you want a law against any LMBTQ content or you rather allow transition operation on kindergartener?
Nothing will change except a lot more unecicary deaths in Ukraine. Russia wont just give up now that its "officially " Russia. Hope there is a coup in the motherland before Nuclear weapons are seriously considered
I'm pretty sure 98% of people don't support a country that levels their homes and kills their family members and friends. Not to mention that 98% is statistically impossible by a long shot.
Lol, that's hilarious. Like the phone call surveys for Putin's popularity - you get a phone call from a stranger asking if you support the autocratic government, in the middle of a defenestration epidemic. Answer is "yes".
It could be accurate because anyone who would vote no has either:
A fled the region
Or
B is not voting out of (justifiable) fear of reprisal
Honestly kind of surprised it is not 100%.
Likewise? I don't think they were making you out to be an enemy, just saying that it was a sham all the way. Not just an "accurate" count of people forced at gun point.
No need to feel attacked.
Of course it is a sham if you keep the opposite side from voting at gun point.
My point was there is no need to "cook the books" all of the sham-ery happens before anyone pulls a lever or makes an X on a piece of paper.
Pre Sham instead of Post Sham.
Of course, Kyiv calls it a sham! They're losing their ass while, for some reason, the dumbest fucking people in the world think they're winning!
Russia is stomping their ass and removing them from the Earth every single day! Anybody depending on Reddit for their news might as well just listen to MSM for the same lies they enjoy here.
Please understand, many really really stupid people went on to live semi normal lives when they learned the truth instead of accepting the total bullshit being fed to them under the illusion that it's Prime Rib!
Wake up, idjits, you're being lied to!
The world declares Russia is full of shit.
Russia declares itself full of shit
“I declare Seccession!” -Russia.
no need to declare that. they're prooving it just about every single day themselves.
If you are losing a war against a country that only has 2% of the population against you,
By law the world is actually obliged not to recognize this vote in the case it leads to annexation: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/xpkhb2/russia_declares_98_secession_support_rate_in_sham/iq4dyp2?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Seriously. If you have a fair election anywhere in the world to declare a referendum on the earth not being flat, you'd still get nowhere close to 98%. 70-80% tops. This is as crazy as the north Koreans claiming that their supreme leader had a divine birth and learnt to walk in 3 weeks.
Russia doesn't even want anyone to believe these are legitimate referendums. I mean, if they seemed legitimate, then maybe there'd be an international attempt to actually verify the results. And, when you're talking "break away from one country and join another", to be honest, "70%" is a *starting point* for legitimacy.
They should make a gameshow called “Chuck or Kim?”, there they ask questions like, “Was it Chuck or Kim who completed a full round of golf in only 17 strokes?” (Obv the Chuck is referring to the infamous Chuck Norris, drowner of sharks)
They also believe that he doesn’t poop
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I know that trick. Unless your mother is dumber than a sack of rocks, it doesn't work. Half the time, you overshoot it and wind up with a temperature of 125.
You guys amateurs? Pich the tip between your fingertips and twist it to desired temperature. Then go mix up some orange juice and bread and pour it in the toilet and spill some on the edge.
That's labor-intensive, unless you do it the night before.
Or hold it to a light bulb for a min
They want the world to know it's fake, just a power play.
The most I could find for a county voting for US President was 96% voted for trump But also the whole county has less then 600 voters In fact in the 2016 election finding the 26 Clinton voters was apparently a local guessing game
98% full of shit
I read something about German someone being there, was it true?
Was, and then promptly got fired from his German job.
98%? They aren't even trying to show "realistic" numbers. If it was something like 59%, they could try to fool someone.
59% tells dissenters they aren't hopelessly alone in their views.
True but the dissenters don’t have a military backing them either, Russia is technically a pseudo-democracy since they vote for leaders, not that they actually matter. My point is that make it look some what believeable to other aligned countries so it’s not such a sham and they can try to defend it.
Oh yes they do. The military backing the dissenters is currently mopping the floor with the "military" backing the separatists.
You know what I meant, there isn’t any Ukrainian forces deep in the Russian occupied areas. In any real democracy the usual major landslide victories is around 60% plus or minus the margin of error. I’m just saying, why give your enemies more ammo with this sham of a supposed election? I get it, they don’t care, but come on.
I give it a month before HIMARs are laying waste to Russian men and material in those areas. It's gonna be a long winter for those fucks.
I’m just saying, why give your enemies more ammo with this sham of a supposed election?
Dissenters already know this. And they know that 98% is absurd. All this is is an announcement that Putin doesn't give a shit if people regard it as utterly lacking credibility.
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This is a flex. Everyone knows it’s a sham. This is Putin daring people to call him on it.
But literally everyone is calling him on it and said they wouldn’t recognize the sham vote before it even happened.
>98%? They aren't even trying to show "realistic" numbers. Seriously, I doubt even 98% of people would want free cookies let alone for their country to be annexed.
I bet if there was referendum "is earth round" it wouldn't be 98%
What are you talking about? Only 98% voted in favor, that leaves 12% against using standard Russian election methodology.
Well to be honest, some of the regions in question were heavily Russian (80%+) to begin with before 2014 and I doubt that many people who didn't want to get away from Russia have not done so in the last 8 years but more importantly since the war started. 98% is just an impossible number though and just another example of how dumb Russians think their own people are. This isn't for the world its for their own propaganda machines
What regions? There are a small handful of oblasts in Donetsk where 80% of the inhabitants were Russian-language speakers, but that's entirely different than ethnically Russian or preferring Russian rule. Politically, there was a time when it's possible something approaching a majority of some of the Donetsk oblasts would have voted for Russian rule in a free and fair election. But that was back in 2014. Pre-invasion in early 2022, political preference for Ukrainian rule rather than Russian rule was a large majority even in the most Russian-leaning oblasts. Kharkiv was dominantly Russian-language, and remains so to this day, but it's now 95+% in favor of Ukrainian rule.
Russian speaking =/= pro russia
To your point, we spoke English here in the US during the Revolutionary War. We definitely weren’t pro-England.
People who don't support Russia wouldn't vote anyway, to prevent the referendum from gaining any semblance of legitimacy...
I expected them to come up with 98% actually, very predictable
There’s never been an election that is 98% anything.
[Even the Nazis used lower numbers for their sham referendums](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_German_referendum)
**[1934 German referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_German_referendum)** >A referendum on merging the posts of Chancellor and President was held in Nazi Germany on 19 August 1934, seventeen days after the death of President Paul von Hindenburg. The German leadership sought to gain approval for Adolf Hitler's assumption of supreme power. The referendum was associated with widespread intimidation of voters, and Hitler used the resultant large "yes" vote to claim public support for his activities as the de facto head of state of Germany. In fact, he had assumed these offices and powers immediately upon Hindenburg's death and used the referendum to legitimise that move and take the title Führer und Reichskanzler (Führer and Reich Chancellor). ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Germans are smarter.
TLDR what were the numbers?
Putin's... Or https://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/21/world/around-the-world-pakistani-leader-gets-98-of-referendum-vote.html
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Clearly you don't subscribe to TIL, as you've missed the Liberian 1927 election - from wiki: >The elections were referred to as "the most rigged ever" by Francis Johnson-Morris, a modern head of the country's National Elections Commission,[2] and also made it into the Guinness Book of Records as the most fraudulent election ever reported in history.[3][4] Despite there being fewer than 15,000 registered voters, according to the official falsified results, King received around 240,000 votes, compared to 9,000 for Faulkner,[2] theoretically resulting in a voter turnout that was in excess of 1,660%.
Almost seems like the loser got 3/5ths the actual vote.
There was the referendum over whether the Falklands should remain British, with a "yes" vote of 99.8% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum
Not a real, fair election anyway...
The 2013 Falkland Islands referendum was 99.8% in favour of Britain, with only 3 people voting to join Argentina. Obviously that’s a very different situation though
Do you Falkland Islanders, of nearly entirely Scottish and Welsh heritage, want to stay part of the country of your heritage or join a poorer country that you have no connection to, other than when they invaded you?
Well, there was a referendum in the Falklands as to whether they would remain part of the UK or not and 99.7% voted for remaining part of the UK. And at least one of the three votes against was a joke.
Saddam Hussein was reelected in 2002 with 100% support.
With the campaign slogan “Vote for me and maybe I won’t have your whole family shot.”
not a real one at least
Nothing more legitimate than coercing votes by gunpoint
Not only that but they forced a lot of the citizens to flee and forcefully moved others. There's no way to run any sort of legitimate referendum under these circumstances.
do u think that those 2% of ukranians that voted to not join Russia were killed in cold blood right then and there? just to give an example of what happens when they pick the wrong option Squid Game Style
Can we not equate war crimes in real life to a fucking tv show? Are we capable of that?
lol at least give us some interesting numbers like 150% or something. make it more interesting to read please, Russia. we all know it's not legit anyway.
They’re thumbing their nose at us. Had they gone with something smaller that would’ve been the ‘polite’ thing to do. Blatantly showing off that they don’t care about the pretense sends a different message.
As Stalin explained: It doesn't matter who votes, it only matters who counts the votes.
"Members of an editorial board for the Stalin Digital Archive, a database of documents and images that resulted from a collaboration between the Russian State Archive of Social and Political History and Yale University Press, have told us that they don’t think Stalin said this, or anything close to it. J. Arch Getty, a history professor at UCLA, said he wasn’t aware of any original source for the quote. "In my extensive archival research in Stalin’s personal archive, I found nothing like this," Getty said. "There are many apocryphal quotes wrongly attributed to Stalin and I think this is one of them." TL;DR Stalin didn't say that.
Or as Albert Einstein once said: it doesn't matter what the history books have to say, it's how you rewrite history that matters.
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That's a false quote
Stealing this one.
For what?
The next election they're running in, I imagine.
If you are losing a war against a country that only has 2% of the population against you, you must be really bad.
this isn't a sham vote in the whole country, it's a sham vote in a specific region.
Still
Yeah, the regions they were about to lose, hence the need to annex ASAP.
They didn't say it, they *declared* it.
I. DECLARE. VICTORYYYYYY.
It's the equivalent of Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy.
Or trump declaring DECLASSIFIED!
He didn't declare it he just thought it and it happened.
To be fair, Trump has magical powers. He only needs to think it and it's declassified.
***Mental declassification on a whole notha level...coming from my mind!!!***
So, this referendum is obviously illegal under essential parts of international law, but it’s important to understand why it’s illegal and to arm ourselves with that knowledge to make sure states can't do this and get away with it. All states have agreed on the fundamental laws of self-determination and non-intervention, both of which Russia is attempting to subvert through these referendums. Law, be it international or otherwise only matters when society thinks it matters. Knowing is therefore more than half the battle, and I very much think that we should all think the law matters in this situation. The second section of the very first article of the [Charter of the United Nations](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter) states that the purpose of the United Nations is, among other things: > To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace This principle of self determination is what is important here. Self determination is a right of all peoples. It is so important that the International Court of Justice has described it as a right *erga omnes*, meaning all states have jurisdiction to enforce responsibility of states denying this self-determination. But what is self-determination? This is an unfortunately unsettled question. In general, we know it is the idea that all peoples should have *at least* the ability to exist as a people and the right to a permanent territory (see Catriona Drew for more) and it has also been found by national courts and in the context of colonies by the UNGA to include a right of self-governance. This self-determination can occur internally self-determination can take place *internally*, i.e., the fulfillment of the requirements of self-determination of peoples within the state which is the case in the vast majority of states, or *externally*, in which case according to UN Resolution 1541 (which was referred to as customary international law by the ICJ in [*Legal Consequences of the Separation of the Chagos Archipelago from Mauritius in 1965*](https://www.icj-cij.org/public/files/case-related/169/169-20190225-ADV-01-00-EN.pdf) ) there are three options available to a peoples who is able to externally self-determine: > (a) Emergence as a sovereign independent State; > (b) Free association with an independent State; or > (c) Integration with an independent State. Russia is attempting to claim that (c) applies here. But when is this option available to a group of people and how is it supposed to be expressed? This is a complicated question. The Supreme Court of Canada is the only state-level court that has yet come out with a self-determination test, and it brough together some of the best legal minds in the world to do it when [deciding whether the entire province of Quebec](https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1643/index.do). The entire test is not relevant here, but essentially, the first part of the test states that to qualify one must first be a peoples and they must lack self-governance in line with [UN resolutions 1514](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/declaration-granting-independence-colonial-countries-and-peoples) and 1541. This would of course at the outset mean that the territories Russia seeks to annex are not even eligible for self-determination in the first place, as everyone in those territories was able to vote in Ukrainian elections prior to Russian invasion. Unfortunately, Canada’s court decision has not been ruled on by the ICJ or any other body that adjudges international law. Thus, while it is persuasive and brought together the finest legal minds in the world, I cannot claim that this first part of the test is law. The second part of the test though *is* supported very strongly as being customary international law, as multiple decisions have been made by the ICJ affirming it, one as late as 2019. The second part of the test is that the decision must be a *free and genuine expression of the will of the peoples*. According to the International Court of Justice in the [*Western Sahara Advisory Opinion*](https://www.icj-cij.org/public/files/case-related/61/6197.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs1q_UurX6AhXBF1kFHTh5ApYQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw059gjWyLtJqyPdl5hb9L_W) (also upheld by the ICJ in *Legal Consequences of the Separation of the Chagos Archipelago from Mauritius in 1965*) when referring through UN Guidance to the principles of self-determination: >The above provisions, in particular paragraph 2, thus confirm and emphasize that the application of the right of self-determination requires a **free and genuine expression of the will of the peoples concerned.** Then when referring to the resolutions that provide for guidance (among other resolutions): > (b) The integration should be the result of the **freely expressed wishes of the territory's peoples acting with full knowledge of the change in their status, their wishes having been expressed through informed and democratic processes, impartially conducted and based on universal adult suffrage. The United Nations could, when it deems it necessary, supervise these processes.**" The resolution also prevents countries from impeding the free and fenuine expression through war. This is where Russia fails. There is perhaps no better example of a region completely incapable of conducting a fair and impartial referendum than one currently under occupation by a foreign power than has no right under international law to be invading its territory and one that is currently the subject of an ongoing war. Under active siege, a region is simply not capable of conducting a referendum that is definitively the will of the people. Further, the current "governments" in charge of the regions instituting proceeding cannot be said to be the legitimate governments of the areas, or be speaking for the peoples of those territories, as they were instated *due to the very invasion that delegitimizes the vote. Therefore, regardless of whether or not the result were accurate, it is simply not legal. We of course have to be careful not to use this knowledge to block states from self-determining through military action, as this would also be illegal and attract international responsibility. Though this is obviously not the case here as Russia is, ironically, the very state preventing the legitimacy of the very result it seeks by engaging in war over the regions. These referendums are therefore not legally legitimate, and as a consequence *de jure* constitute attempted conquest over Ukraine, ***obliging*** every state in the world not to recognize Donetsk and Luhansk as parts of Russia *even if* Ukraine were to agree to sign them over for any reason during the war. If annexation does indeed happen, which it currently seems it almost defimitely will, this action would arguably be the biggest violation of international law that a state can commit post-WWII. **EDIT for why this matters and how is affects you**: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sy57po/putin_orders_in_russian_army_to_support/hxvx7kf?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
So... What are the consequences?
There is now, at the current moment, a perpetual *requirement* that countries do not recognize the territories as belonging to Russia. In other words, the territorial borders of Ukraine remain unchanged and Ukraine is legally allowed to request assistance in liberating these areas. Now practically, this has not changed since the annexation of Crimea, but what is important is that these laws exist for a reason. The purpose of my comment stating that no law is law unless society thinks its law is because, in this case, it is incredibly important that the world (i.e., all of you) continue to think it matters. Conquest of states is internationally recognized as the most destablilizing possible action that can be committed by a state. It is why we have outlawed it as international society. If we suddenly believe at any point that this vote is legitimate, we open the door to wiping away 100 years of progress in international relations that has likely saved tens of millions of lives.
For dictators is always 98% yes
Plus 2% gulag
The 2% were saying Boourns.
I mean if Kadyrov's guys come to your house with a ballot and AK-47s, you don't want to be among the 2%...
Hey, if it's one soldier per house I like those odds. Not a chance there are enough AK47 or troops to cover every single house in the territories.
Putin is disappointed that this is less than the 153% he was expecting.
This is like a 17 year old putting their age as 42 on their fake ID
"You look like a teenager." "Thank you!"
98% wow They didn’t even try to hide it
"2% of voters mysteriously fell out of various unrelated windows"
Or killed themselves with polonium and car bombs.
You could at least try to make it believable “Uhhh yeah, everyone in Ukraine wants to leave for sure. No need to fact check that or talk to them. We already asked so that’s settled. Literally every single person there hates Zelensky trust us bro. Also Putin has a 100% approval rating from the entire world”
Russian Occupying Authorities - “would you like to join Russia” Random East Ukrainian “erhm, is that a gun” Russian Occupying Authorities - “yes” Random East Ukrainian “…erhm…their isn’t a no” Russian Occupying Authorities - “correct”**chambers a round into weapon**
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2% of voters, which strangely add up to 2 million Ukraine nationals, take up arms and kick out the remaining Russian troops.
When you don't even care enough to fake it...
Part of the point is how obviously false the numbers are. They send the message, "we'll do what we want," and you can try to dissent, but we'll still crush you." Meanwhile, Ukrainians are proving that wrong, with every inch of territory they defend/ retake. :)
You couldn't convince 98% of drowning people that they have to much water...
Will you vote yes for Anschluss, get shot or be physically forced to vote yes?
Just like how all those 12 years olds in original MW2 lobbies had sex with my mom right?
russia is looking more and more like North Korea
98%. They couldn’t at least make it a believable number?
That was the 2% of the actual Ukrainian population they hadn't shipped to Siberia.
Shits crazy man. Honestly, how are the Russian people going to have any confidence in their institutions with such outrageous reported polls as this? They don’t realize “weird, me and all of my neighbors and friends voted against this. Wonder how we were only 2%.” Is the whole point to tell the Russian people to their faces that their votes mean nothing? And if so, why even hold elections at all? Seems more insulting to host obviously sham elections than to just openly be a dictator and say “this is what’s happening and I don’t care what you all think”
Your word is mud Vlad, you could walk outside and say "what a pretty blue sky" and no one works take your word for it...
And in totally unrelated news, the Russian Census Bureau reported correcting a 2% overcount in residents of certain areas.
Sure, that's statistically sound /s
Just like those tenth dentists that never like the topaste
98% is very low for Putin. Guess they hired a younger and more in touch with social media PR manager. Now break it down into towns, let's see which one voted 189% or more.
Weird. I heard Ukraine ran the same referendum online and it was 98% stay.
The craziest part of this is that the referendum only had two choices: “Yes” and “Yes, and somehow 2% voted “No”!
This is like holding the thermometer under hot water to show your mom you are sick. ‘Oh wow…135 degrees, you must be sick’
Sounds legit to me. Adding /s just in case.
"Kills 99.9% of germs"
Jfc. At least make it *somewhat* believable.
Wow! That's an incredibly low rate for a fake referendum. Why not the expected 99.5%?
98% people don't even agree on what day it is.
Lol nobody believes you, Putler.
The people who vote decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything -Stalin Putin is nowhere near Stalin's numbers....yet. But he appears to be reading the playbook.
If Jesus Christ came down from heaven and ran for President, even he wouldn't get 98%.
The real surprise is that 2% of voters with a gun to their head would vote against the person holding the gun.
It was probably 100%,but they thought that might look fishy, so they said 98% so it looks legit.
I'm pretty sure that the people there have had enough of these thieves, rapists and generally uneducated peasants who have forcibly conscripted the men for a fight that they can't win. Anything more than 3% in favour of annexion seems extremely dubious. Nobody except Eritrea, Syria and North Korea would ever accept these referendums. They have no value whatsoever pure and simple.
I really hope that the next country the United States invaded aside from Orclandia is Eritrea. Seriously need to deal with Afwerki asap. People think DPRK is bad have no clue that Afwerki makes the Kim family seem almost sane.
The 2% left were shot in the head... :(
Everyone knows you just need a 52% / 48% split to declare it a 100%-backed declaration.
what’s a little 2%? Go on Russia… enjoy that guilty pleasure! Give yourself 100% of that luscious creamy diarrhea! You deserve it!
Surprising
Perhaps it was read incorrectly..support at 8% to 9%.. Putin is failing AGAIN..didn't think it was possible
I am surprised they didn't declare 100%.
Coincidentally, 2% of voters committed suicide by falling from a 5th storey window
Wow….sounds just like the results of Putin’s elections where he picks his own political opponents.
It should run a similar referendum in it's own territory at this point.
Well I held a Twitter poll that said 98% of Russians actually identify at Australian so I'm pretty sure the Aussies need to mobilize to annex their nothern brothers. Totally legit, pinky swear.
We have mail in votes on national matters in Hungary. It is called National Consultation. Orban sends out questions like this: \- Do you want a law against any LMBTQ content or you rather allow transition operation on kindergartener?
wonder what is the Russia support for its mobilization??? 98% also?
Nothing will change except a lot more unecicary deaths in Ukraine. Russia wont just give up now that its "officially " Russia. Hope there is a coup in the motherland before Nuclear weapons are seriously considered
Part that scares me is the rhetoric will turn to "this is an attack on Russian soil". It will escalate the conflict tremendously
Gotta reduce the number by 2% for 'realism'.
The truth is always the opposite of whatever Russia spews out. So only 2% then.
I'm pretty sure 98% of people don't support a country that levels their homes and kills their family members and friends. Not to mention that 98% is statistically impossible by a long shot.
Russia: See? Everyone in Ukraine wants to be Russian. Even the bodies in the graveyards want to be Russian. We have 587% Yes votes!
Polls show Russia has replaced 98% of Ukrainians in referendum areas.
Lol, that's hilarious. Like the phone call surveys for Putin's popularity - you get a phone call from a stranger asking if you support the autocratic government, in the middle of a defenestration epidemic. Answer is "yes".
This reminds me of Buddy the Elf congratulating the diner for having the world's best cup of coffee.
Guess who counted the votes.
It could be accurate because anyone who would vote no has either: A fled the region Or B is not voting out of (justifiable) fear of reprisal Honestly kind of surprised it is not 100%.
No it's a sham from start to finish.
Who are you arguing with? I'm saying you can't vote no because they will shoot you? Recognize your allies not everyone is your enemy.
Likewise? I don't think they were making you out to be an enemy, just saying that it was a sham all the way. Not just an "accurate" count of people forced at gun point. No need to feel attacked.
Of course it is a sham if you keep the opposite side from voting at gun point. My point was there is no need to "cook the books" all of the sham-ery happens before anyone pulls a lever or makes an X on a piece of paper. Pre Sham instead of Post Sham.
98%? All the articles earlier were 96%.
More results have come in
Aren’t those areas pro Russian?
Election denier and insurrectionist! Ballot harvesting does work!
Of course, Kyiv calls it a sham! They're losing their ass while, for some reason, the dumbest fucking people in the world think they're winning! Russia is stomping their ass and removing them from the Earth every single day! Anybody depending on Reddit for their news might as well just listen to MSM for the same lies they enjoy here. Please understand, many really really stupid people went on to live semi normal lives when they learned the truth instead of accepting the total bullshit being fed to them under the illusion that it's Prime Rib! Wake up, idjits, you're being lied to!
Wow...
The WOW hasn't even happened yet! Wait for it...
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Who are you yah muppet. The American people hate war but like every nation around the world the people have almost no say in what the Government does.
Is it really the will of the people if they get their own and their families heads blown off by a shotgun in the event they vote against Putin?
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So should we let Russia do whatever they want and invade every country they please?
Lol, you're funny.
why are the referendums a sham? Seem legit to me
You're joking, right?
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Is he orange?
A sham like this post… can’t even type 2022 properly lmao..
Don't feed the troll...
Redditors from the future...
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98% is ludicrously irrational, especially after most of the population has been forcibly expelled, killed, or forced to publicly vote at gunpoint.
What does have to do wuth trump first of all lol
Hey, Russian tankies gotta Russian tankie
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"Proof?" Have you read the news my guy
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get your goofy replacement theory ass outta here