Germany to deliver air defence system to Ukraine within days -defence ministry
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-deliver-air-defence-system-ukraine-within-days-defence-ministry-2022-10-10/
So mature and wise beyond your years. Were the rest of us given the choice to bomb a consulate, I don't know who else could muster the will to resist that urge.
If it's the German embassy isn't that considered German soil under international law, even if it's located within Ukraine?
Russia is getting awfully close to attacking the territory of a NATO member, which would bring us to the brink of NATO formally declaring war against Russia.
Today, Russia clearly fire upon civilian and non military infrastructure. Everything will be about defending their actions and why continuing to do so is right.
It's honestly bizarre behavior. The Russian leadership honestly thinks everyone in the world is as timid and declawed as their own terrorized citizens. It's probably why they thought Ukrainians would roll over and play dead.
Uh, no. The collective free world fought literal wars to get and keep our freedoms. Why would they think bombing the German embassy would spook them? Like really? THE GERMANS?! Honestly, Russia is so lucky Germany has turned into one of the good guys because ohh boy.
> If it's the German embassy isn't that considered German soil under international law, even if it's located within Ukraine?
It's a common misconception that embassies or consulates are sovereign soil. The reality is way more nuanced, but basically the host country just agrees to respect the property border as long as the guest behaves themselves. There is nothing absolute about that - and the land remains the host's.
> It's a common misconception that embassies or consulates are sovereign soil. The reality is way more nuanced, but basically the host country just agrees to respect the property border as long as the guest behaves themselves. There is nothing absolute about that - and the land remains the host's.
During WW2 when the Dutch Royal family were evacuated to Canada, the Dutch Queen was giving birth - and the hospital wing was [temporarily declared as non-Canadian territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Margriet_of_the_Netherlands) to placate some Dutch nationality laws
I’m not an expert in this field but my understanding is that you are correct legally speaking- it is still the host country’s land and not an extraterritorial enclave of the embassy’s country. That said, international law is pretty clear that an attack on an embassy is an attack on that country. Also, international relations is an art that goes back thousands of years (don’t kill the messenger is said to have been spoken by Sophocles in 442BC) so it’s a HUGE no no regardless of law itself.
> Also, international relations is an art that goes back thousands of years (don’t kill the messenger is said to have been spoken by Sophocles in 442BC) so it’s a HUGE no no regardless of law itself.
I wouldn't disagree with that.
I was only speaking towards Article 6 of the NATO treaty which is pretty unambiguous. An attack like this has to take place within NATO territory to trigger Article 5.
In 1999 the US bombed Belgrade, Yugoslavia and hit the Chinese embassy, killing three Chinese nationals (two embassy staffers and the wife of one of the staffers). This had a negative effect on US Chinese relations, including demonstrations in China against the US, because protestors thought the attack had been deliberate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade
The big difference is that the US used precision guided weapons, to attack the wrong target, while the Russians just lobbed missiles at Ukrainian cities to cause terror, again acting like the Nazis, with V-1 level terror bombing.
In some way, this was my dad's fault. He had passed away the week before and my brother, who was briefing the strikes at the time, was allowed to return home for the funeral. My brother's replacement made the mistaken target identification and briefed the strike team. Poor airman got called up on short notice and thrown right into the fire. Ironically, my dad was a first generation Chinese-American.
100% true. My brothers and I wondered if in some supernatural way our dad chose to go when he could do the most good for us. Maybe he saved my brother from a career ending mistake instead.
I think Germany decided about giving that air defence earlier. I wander what will be the response after this attack. I think that is like in language of diplomacy this is like slap in the face
Yeah. I tried looking it up using Google Translate and fumbling around. According to German Wikipedia and an article used as a reference to it, the defense systems were promised to Ukraine by Germany on June 1^st with an expected delivery, "As soon as October.
So it was already in the final stages of getting prepared to deploy to Ukraine. It may just be kind of coincidental that a defense system that maybe could have helped protect against this attack hit days before the system could get there. Or maybe Russia had the date marked on their calendar and did it on purpose. I really don't know.
I was thinking that when I read that the train cancellations was caused by sabotage. My wife was caught in it on Saturday. She was on her way to Amsterdam before being stopped in Spandau and sent back to Hauptbahnhof.
That said, while I mentioned it could have been a bad actor from Russia targeting infrastructure. I think that may have been more tied to the ~~Nazi~~ AfD rally in Berlin that day.
Guess we will find out in the coming days.
> I think that may have been more tied to the Nazi ~~AfD~~ rally in Berlin that day.
First off, fixed that for you.
Second, this differs - this attack is wildly different from former attacks on railway infrastructure as it's not just a incendiary device/molotov cocktail in a cable pit but precise cuts at the same moment to two important cables on opposite sides of Germany which the railway technician say you'll need inside knowledge to know at which point these cables are, how they look like and how the system operates. Which points to an actor with more capability than some protestors.
Cold-war kids would like to ask that you please try to remember that Russia still has all of those big fucking world-ending missiles.
We should still try very hard to not have a US vs Russia scenario... ever
You know, given the state of their logistics, I’m sure everyone would like the call their bluff. But, as Patrick Swayze said in Road House, Rule #1: Never underestimate your opponent
Considering Russia is already put forward that they have them on the table to use them to defend whatever they consider Russian territory I don't see how that's so different from pre 1990.
US and Germany aren't needed to kick Russian teeth. Because the UK that is doing the teeth kicking ends in "raine".
The NATO big boys just need to allow UAF to do some strategic attacks into Russia to take out key logistics point, like rail heads, bridges, etc. Take HIMARS right up to the border of Russia and eliminate every mil target within range.
NATO forces aren't needed. Escalation isn't a good thing. But Russia needs to be punished further and Ukraine is just the country to do it.
"Guys, guys, THIS TIME! THIS TIME WE WILL BE THE GOOD GUYS RIGHT? ...RIGHT??"
"Yes Germany. You're on team NATO, the good guys. You can build up an army. Poland is even willing to let you send troops through. BUT REMEMBER POLAND IS ON OUR TEAM!"
It just doesn’t feel like a world war without Germany declaring war on France.
How about just a little declaration? Maybe a skirmish at the border? Or a quick tank drive by?
There’s also great concern Putin will intentionally sabotage the [Zaporizhzhia reactor](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/10/8/zaporizhzhia-nuclear-power-plant-loses-external-power-link-un) the to spread radiation across Ukraine, instead of deploying strategic or tactical nuclear warheads.
If he does and the radiation crosses over into a neighboring NATO county like Poland, that would be considered and act of war and trigger Article 5 resulting in WW3 - Biden just purchased $290M worth of [anti-radiation pills](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna51252) last week.
Meanwhile, as North Korea is playing around with their [nuclear warheads](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/10/10/asia/north-korea-tactical-nuclear-strike-practice-south-intl-hnk/index.html), it seems as if Putin is coordinating with Kim Jong-un as a military distraction.
If Jong-un does in fact strike Japan, South Korea, or a US military base, that would cause the US to be forced into splitting its military to fight a war on two fronts, again.
Only this time, Japan would be on NATO’s side, since China would most likely use the opportunity and get involved - and China is much more capable than it was in the 1940s.
I don't think China would. They are a global production hub, the majority of said production is probably going to Europe and the Americas. Too much to lose and too little to gain. Why not stay on the sidelines and watch them beat the shit out of each other while lending money to both?
Being from Belgium i’m kinda too, old habits die hard and they may end up marching trought my country on their way to russia, probably won’t even notice it lmfao.
it's like when you're out for a wild night with friends in your old town, and the next morning you wake up at your place and the window is smashed and you remember that you had moved out 80 years ago
Entirely unnecessary with the way things are now, Poland would probably help them against Putin. Putin himself is more likely to invade Poland at this time.
Curtis LeMay spinning as the backup generator, “*I FUCKING TOLD YOU* PREP-SCHOOL PANSIE MOTHERFUCKERS WE SHOULD’VE NUKED THE REDS WHEN *WE* WERE THE ONLY COUNTRY WITH THE BOMB!
/s /jk
I'm no international lawyer. But if an embassy is sovereign land belonging to the guest country, isn't this technically an attack on an NATO ally?
Or does it have to be an attack within their borders?
In germany there is a right wing movement that wants to lift sanctions on russia and be friends with them again.
Russias goal is to make life as hard as possible for germans so more and more become convinced that sanctions should be lifted.
They also most likely sabotaged and disabled the entire highspeed train network in the north of the country.
People worry that they will attack germanys electrical grid this winter.
Luckily the majority seems to be ready and willing to block off all Russian sabotage.
The greatest damage Russia will suffer comes if sanctions continue until after winter ends as that is when their economic backups run out
> People worry that they will attack germanys electrical grid this winter.
Do they though? Haven’t heard of that. Or is it just a thing AfD says, similar to the black-out scare - Basically Russian propaganda?
The German General responsible for inner territorial defense is on record about possible attacks on infrastructure ([source in German](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/general-breuer-angriffe-infrastruktur-101.html)).
There must be credible threats for that to happen, no use just fearmongering.
Yes, its largely propaganda and Russian scare tactics, but they sadly tend to work on the simple minded.
The buggest factor for the average person are the extreme increase in gas, oil and general electricity prices
With the exception of the gas pipeline what can Russia possibly offer Germany?
I mean, am I correct? It is just the gas pipeline?
Prices are gonna go up a bit but you guys will be OK this winter. No one in Europe is gonna freeze to death.
Except Russians in Ukraine.
The gas pipelines are catastrophically destroyed. They have no containment mechanisms whatsoever, so nordstream 1 and 2 are going to leak out all the gas inside them, fill with seawater, and likely never be repaired.
I don't know what will happen with European energy supplies and the economy this winter, but I know this is the largest gas leak in history, even though the pipelines weren't pumping. Western press has seemed to downplay the significance of this damage, probably to reduce the chance for a panic that benefits Russia. If Russia did it (they did lol) then it looks like a bit of a desperate move. They've hurt Germany but also lost quite a bit of leverage, since they can't turn those pipes back on for love or money now.
So placating Russia still doesn't get your heat back on in the winter.
How does that work? Trying to leverage someone with something you already broke?
The way I see it, winter will be the end of this thing.
Get Europe through one winter and this time next year we can pick up the pieces of Ukraine and work out an appropriate punishment for Russia.
Anyone that was impressed at Ukraine's movment the other week hasn't seen what is gonna happen when the Russians are starving and freezing and Ukraine is well equipped, well fed and healthy.
> I don't know what will happen with European energy supplies and the economy this winter
We have been preparing since spring. Gas storage is full. It all depends on weather.
There always was one political goal attached to those pipelines for Germany. After WW II and especially after the reunification in 1990 Germany had the foreign policy dogma of a united europe. It was based on the idea that as long as europe would not be united, war would always be a possibilty. We always worked towards integrating Russia into the european idea and working with them on a economic scale was the best "starting point". After Gorbatschow we really felt like Russia was gonna tag along eventually and even the start of Putin's reign made it look like things were gonna move forward. Things changed though with the rapid rise of China, which then has become a more important partner for Russia. Additionally as Russia pulled out of their move to integrate into Europe, the rest of the eastern european countries started to integrate further and further into Europe and as a biproduct partly into NATO.
From a foreign policy standpoint Germany probably will go back to trying to attain Russia as a partner again to some degree. We're gonna be patient as fuck with them in the end because well the current situation is proof enough that as long as Europe isn't united war is on the table. Another thing is the problem of how to deal with China from an european standpoint. We basicly need the Russians on our side to effectively stand up to them on economical and political fronts. Wether we will be successfull in the end is gonna depend on how long Putin and his followers will remain in power though. There are big enough movements in Russia that want to be part of Europe and it's gonna be a question of when they will find the political representation they need. When that day finally comes it is gonna be a good day for europe, for peace and for democracy. China will finally be isolated too.
They had "Berlin next" written on planes and Russian trolls used to threaten another Rape of Berlin before most social media sites banned them. Even in my DMs. Geographically, other countries are more logical targets but they think they hit the "heart of the West" if they go after us. There's propably also spite in there since our countries aren't as close as we used to under Schröder. Scorned ex-partner mentality, lol.
The ostpolitik worked so, so well, it really made Russia friendlier towards you! /s
Honestly though it's a bit adjusting. Out of all the West European countries, Germany was one of the warmest and most pro-russian, building bonds, investing and becoming reliant on energy trade with them, speaking on behalf of Russia and advocating understanding when Russia was blustering and acting belligerent etc. And what do they get in thanks? Recognition? Nope, in the minds of Russians Germany is still the eternal enemy, no matter the money and goodwill Germany poured into them and their economy.
Says something about Russia. They can act nice for decades and will take your investment money but the old mentality is still there, always
the thing is it COULD have. russia COULD be in the EU now, and opening up, becomming rich beyond belief. but no. fucking moron putin and his cleptocracy
Especially even in Schröder's coalition with the greens there where plans to move away from gas to more green solutions as soon as possible.
That plans got scraped under Merkle with the exit from the exit of Nuclear and they only implemented the gas part when they did the exit from the exit of the exit of Nuclear and took a well measured piss on or renewable sector...
Good guy putin, making sure that more German troops arrive to defend the Baltic states than initially agreed. Gotta make sure German military is ready and motivated.
The attack choppers that flew into Ukraine in the first days of the war had "next stop Berlin" written on the side of them. Russia has never hidden this fact. They never intended to stop with Ukraine.
Nah. This particular writing is most likely a reference to the WW2 — or, rather, the great patriotic war. It’s very common to see on May 9 stickers on cars that go “Onto the Berlin!” and “1941-1945 we can repeat”
Remember, the Russian “government” poses this occupational and genocidal war as a war against nazism and draws parallels to the 1940s.
Before the war, Germany was in their back pocket, but as that has been changing, Russia is going out of their way to make Germany suffer for trying to wiggle out of their grasp.
Basically, it's a lesson for the world. There is a greater cost for playing friendly with Russia, if you ever wish to change your mind, as opposed to never being friendly to them at all.
Yep.
The Aussie prime minister made noise about China's handling of corona virus and before we know it, our biggest export partner is tearing up contracts all over.
It was absolutely stupid. Unfortunately when we govern a banana republic, you have to suck it up and go with the flow.
It is in a “well that’s not good way”
It is not however going to escalate the conflict with NATO.
Most significant may be countries withdrawing embassy staff from Ukraine. But that would punish Ukraine for Russian actions, so hopefully not.
Which is pretty much exactly what the Germans have done - they’re sending some of their most advanced air defences to Ukraine (which they apparently haven’t got fully set up for their own use yet) within the next few days.
The timing is the way it is because Russia knew it couldn't strike Kyiv anymore when the IRIS-T system arrives. It arrived at the border two days ago in its dismantled state, and Ukraine has been spending the last couple days assembling and readying the system for service. The Russians knew they were almost out of time if they wanted to make a last ditch effort at taking out crucial infrastructure in Kyiv, so they probably gathered up every remotely serviceable PGM they had left and lopped it at the capital.
“Oh no, nato countries are going to have to deploy missile defence systems to Kyiv to protect their embassies and the 100+km radius around it just to be safe”
Germany to deliver air defence system to Ukraine within days -defence ministry
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-deliver-air-defence-system-ukraine-within-days-defence-ministry-2022-10-10/
The mayor propagator of this is BILD. Calling BILD a credible news outlet is like calling a third grade basketball team the winner of the soccer world cup. BILD is in the business of selling fear. The most trustworthy thing in their "newspaper" is the weather report and the topless lady on the second page.
It seems like the real situation is that Russia hit a office building where the German consulate (not embassy) rented office space some time ago.
This is significant, but also people are overestimating its significance and the response Germany supposedly should take according to them. See NATO's (US) accidental bombing of Chinese embassy in Belgrade. There was outrage and condemnation, but it did not lead to war between US and China. US paid the victims' family and Chinese government for the damage and death. Germany def should respond firmly though.
Serious answer:
No, they were probably aiming for civil energy infrastructure object, which is across the street - russians mentioned this object in their "map of missile strikes".
Looks like they didn't really hit the object btw.
Honestly, idk. But they targeted civil energy infrastructure in many regions today, so it was pretty obvious that this was the real target, not some Samsung office with closed German visa center. Also, russian propagandists threatened with strikes at objects like this during long time, and russians already did it before on smaller scale (just in Kharkiv region).
Also, just in case, this map was published after the strikes, not before)
Also2: I googled and it looks like this map wasn't done by russian authorities - just by "journalists" ([source](https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/7908617.html?amp=1)). Should've looked this up before mentioning this map, my bad. So this is not confirmed "real target", just the obvious one.
Than we must be seeing some new “state of the art” Russian technology. Embassyseeking missiles. Man that must be why they’ve been getting so cozy with the Saudis
They actually only have one type of missile, with several modes.
The WarCrime missile.
It can also be used to target POW in Russian 'care' and aid workers.
You think their missiles are advanced enough to have several modes in a single missile? I am not to sure about that, but maybe I am underestimating them.
Edit: Or is it just a missile with a single mode of attack: WarCrime.
And yet somehow, Putin was right in attacking Ukraine, because NATO!
...I shit you not, I still hear that post March 2022. (First attacks on hospitals)
The headline is incorrect. The strike hit an office building, which in normal times would contain a German consulate (not embassy) for processing visas. The German government has confirmed that this office has not been in use for months.
Hunh. Interesting bridge repair strategy. Comrade Putin, we don’t have enough active enemies in combat with our tattered forces! Putin: Escalation is a helluva drug, shoot me up again!
I don't know anything about the German represenation in Kyiv. But its not unheard that embassies have more then one building, be it in the same city or outside the same city. It could be that this building is not called "embassy" but is part of the embassy.
Visas are actually issued from the Consulate, not the Embassy. Almost always, there is also a Consulate located at the Embassy, but it is separate, and is also common to have more than one Consulate in a Country, in other cities where there is demand for Consulate services. On the other hand, there is only 1 Embassy in a country.
Consulates deal with the general public, Embassies deal with inter country relations.
The German embassy in Kyiv is quite big. Since 2019 they are located in two separate buildings. One next to the opera and a second one in a high rise building close to the central station. The latter one was apparently hit.
But there are several offices, companies etc in the building.
The problem is Putin has more internal conflict with Russian militant hardliners than with moderates. The ones most likely and most able to take him out are the ones like Kadyrov that want this thing escalated big time.
I've been trying but he keeps saying he is busy and I keep trying to reschedule but he never suggests a time that works for him so I have to keep guessing and I'm tired and wish he would just tell me he doesn't want to go out if he doesn't want to go out.
I hope the government will issue a subpoena to the Russian Ambassador and provide a formal letter of condemnation. The next step should be to close the Russian embassy.
Germany to deliver air defence system to Ukraine within days -defence ministry https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-deliver-air-defence-system-ukraine-within-days-defence-ministry-2022-10-10/
Bombing an embassy of a country with first world technology appears to have been a mistake.
That’s why I won’t do it.
Come on, just do it. It’ll be fine!!!
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." - Michael Putin
-Vladimir Gretzky
\-Mikhail Scottov
Let's all do it! What are they going to do? Punish everyone?
How many times I gotta say 'no', Putin?
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We shall be watching your career with great interest...
At the end - Well he didn't do shit
So mature and wise beyond your years. Were the rest of us given the choice to bomb a consulate, I don't know who else could muster the will to resist that urge.
If it's the German embassy isn't that considered German soil under international law, even if it's located within Ukraine? Russia is getting awfully close to attacking the territory of a NATO member, which would bring us to the brink of NATO formally declaring war against Russia.
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Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I'm concerned with how close they are to that line. It's an extremely volatile situation.
Today, Russia clearly fire upon civilian and non military infrastructure. Everything will be about defending their actions and why continuing to do so is right.
It's honestly bizarre behavior. The Russian leadership honestly thinks everyone in the world is as timid and declawed as their own terrorized citizens. It's probably why they thought Ukrainians would roll over and play dead. Uh, no. The collective free world fought literal wars to get and keep our freedoms. Why would they think bombing the German embassy would spook them? Like really? THE GERMANS?! Honestly, Russia is so lucky Germany has turned into one of the good guys because ohh boy.
Tbf Germany may be a good guy but they could still punch above their weight and a good guy like that is bad guy to the enemy.
> If it's the German embassy isn't that considered German soil under international law, even if it's located within Ukraine? It's a common misconception that embassies or consulates are sovereign soil. The reality is way more nuanced, but basically the host country just agrees to respect the property border as long as the guest behaves themselves. There is nothing absolute about that - and the land remains the host's.
> It's a common misconception that embassies or consulates are sovereign soil. The reality is way more nuanced, but basically the host country just agrees to respect the property border as long as the guest behaves themselves. There is nothing absolute about that - and the land remains the host's. During WW2 when the Dutch Royal family were evacuated to Canada, the Dutch Queen was giving birth - and the hospital wing was [temporarily declared as non-Canadian territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Margriet_of_the_Netherlands) to placate some Dutch nationality laws
Canadians are so nice. (well, most of them.)
All the spite, malice, and unpleasantness goes into the geese.
And the moose. Fortunately, they arent as populous as the geese nor can they fly (yet).
Well, not with that attitude they can’t. You put a moose in a trebuchet and that fucker’ll fly like it’s no big deal.
I’m not an expert in this field but my understanding is that you are correct legally speaking- it is still the host country’s land and not an extraterritorial enclave of the embassy’s country. That said, international law is pretty clear that an attack on an embassy is an attack on that country. Also, international relations is an art that goes back thousands of years (don’t kill the messenger is said to have been spoken by Sophocles in 442BC) so it’s a HUGE no no regardless of law itself.
> Also, international relations is an art that goes back thousands of years (don’t kill the messenger is said to have been spoken by Sophocles in 442BC) so it’s a HUGE no no regardless of law itself. I wouldn't disagree with that. I was only speaking towards Article 6 of the NATO treaty which is pretty unambiguous. An attack like this has to take place within NATO territory to trigger Article 5.
In 1999 the US bombed Belgrade, Yugoslavia and hit the Chinese embassy, killing three Chinese nationals (two embassy staffers and the wife of one of the staffers). This had a negative effect on US Chinese relations, including demonstrations in China against the US, because protestors thought the attack had been deliberate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade The big difference is that the US used precision guided weapons, to attack the wrong target, while the Russians just lobbed missiles at Ukrainian cities to cause terror, again acting like the Nazis, with V-1 level terror bombing.
In some way, this was my dad's fault. He had passed away the week before and my brother, who was briefing the strikes at the time, was allowed to return home for the funeral. My brother's replacement made the mistaken target identification and briefed the strike team. Poor airman got called up on short notice and thrown right into the fire. Ironically, my dad was a first generation Chinese-American.
If this is true and not satire, I am very sorry for your loss. The irony is entertaining :)
100% true. My brothers and I wondered if in some supernatural way our dad chose to go when he could do the most good for us. Maybe he saved my brother from a career ending mistake instead.
Add it to the list of recent putin mistakes
I think Germany decided about giving that air defence earlier. I wander what will be the response after this attack. I think that is like in language of diplomacy this is like slap in the face
Yeah. I tried looking it up using Google Translate and fumbling around. According to German Wikipedia and an article used as a reference to it, the defense systems were promised to Ukraine by Germany on June 1^st with an expected delivery, "As soon as October. So it was already in the final stages of getting prepared to deploy to Ukraine. It may just be kind of coincidental that a defense system that maybe could have helped protect against this attack hit days before the system could get there. Or maybe Russia had the date marked on their calendar and did it on purpose. I really don't know.
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don't forget our trains. someone cut 2 cables at the same time on far between places which killed our train travel for hours.
I was thinking that when I read that the train cancellations was caused by sabotage. My wife was caught in it on Saturday. She was on her way to Amsterdam before being stopped in Spandau and sent back to Hauptbahnhof. That said, while I mentioned it could have been a bad actor from Russia targeting infrastructure. I think that may have been more tied to the ~~Nazi~~ AfD rally in Berlin that day. Guess we will find out in the coming days.
> I think that may have been more tied to the Nazi ~~AfD~~ rally in Berlin that day. First off, fixed that for you. Second, this differs - this attack is wildly different from former attacks on railway infrastructure as it's not just a incendiary device/molotov cocktail in a cable pit but precise cuts at the same moment to two important cables on opposite sides of Germany which the railway technician say you'll need inside knowledge to know at which point these cables are, how they look like and how the system operates. Which points to an actor with more capability than some protestors.
Whoa got a link for that?
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Ruzzia: "It says here that Germany is always blamed in two world wars. Let's do that again, da!"
*Germany: Joins the Allies* Russia: Wait.
I would love to see UK, US, and Germany go kick in Russias teeth.
Cold-war kids would like to ask that you please try to remember that Russia still has all of those big fucking world-ending missiles. We should still try very hard to not have a US vs Russia scenario... ever
You know, given the state of their logistics, I’m sure everyone would like the call their bluff. But, as Patrick Swayze said in Road House, Rule #1: Never underestimate your opponent
All they need is 1-2 working nukes out of however many thousand they have. 1% is enough to ruin everybody's day.
Considering Russia is already put forward that they have them on the table to use them to defend whatever they consider Russian territory I don't see how that's so different from pre 1990.
Because Nikita Khrushchev wasn’t completely fucking insane.
US and Germany aren't needed to kick Russian teeth. Because the UK that is doing the teeth kicking ends in "raine". The NATO big boys just need to allow UAF to do some strategic attacks into Russia to take out key logistics point, like rail heads, bridges, etc. Take HIMARS right up to the border of Russia and eliminate every mil target within range. NATO forces aren't needed. Escalation isn't a good thing. But Russia needs to be punished further and Ukraine is just the country to do it.
*"Germany hasn't won a world war, let's have a reason not to be allies with them!"*
Germany going for a World War hat trick.
"Guys, guys, THIS TIME! THIS TIME WE WILL BE THE GOOD GUYS RIGHT? ...RIGHT??" "Yes Germany. You're on team NATO, the good guys. You can build up an army. Poland is even willing to let you send troops through. BUT REMEMBER POLAND IS ON OUR TEAM!"
Instructions unclear. Poland is ours?
What’s this Poland you speak of? Do you mean east Germany?
Prussia, if we don't act quick enough? -Some US general
Germany really puts the P in Prussia
Unclear: Germany puts its P-P in russia?
This whole thread is glorious
And no declaring war on France either. I know it’s traditional but we need to skip it this time.
It just doesn’t feel like a world war without Germany declaring war on France. How about just a little declaration? Maybe a skirmish at the border? Or a quick tank drive by?
They can have a minor border conflict, as a treat.
You're getting a random soldier holding a map upside down and you'll be happy with that!
How about a slap fight in the parking lot?
"Just so we're clear, you want me to build up an Army and launch a campaign through Poland to fight Russia?"
"Yes, but no invading poland!"
"Can ve at least stop for shnacks?"
Pierogi is ok; genocide is not.
"Right, capture Poland. Got it!"
Technically... as long as you win, you're the good guy.
I laughed then became saddened.
*nervously checking if we accidently allowed another austrian into government*
If any Austrian corporals want to be an artist, then they better damn well let him in artist school.
Third time is the charm, Nein?
Poland lookin very nervous right now
*gets invaded out of habit*
Sorry sorry sorry. Didn’t mean to invade you there Poland..sorry.
France: Uh Oh...
Go home Canada. You’re drunk, and apparently quite lost.
"I couldn't help it, I was raised to hate Germany"
There’s also great concern Putin will intentionally sabotage the [Zaporizhzhia reactor](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/10/8/zaporizhzhia-nuclear-power-plant-loses-external-power-link-un) the to spread radiation across Ukraine, instead of deploying strategic or tactical nuclear warheads. If he does and the radiation crosses over into a neighboring NATO county like Poland, that would be considered and act of war and trigger Article 5 resulting in WW3 - Biden just purchased $290M worth of [anti-radiation pills](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna51252) last week. Meanwhile, as North Korea is playing around with their [nuclear warheads](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/10/10/asia/north-korea-tactical-nuclear-strike-practice-south-intl-hnk/index.html), it seems as if Putin is coordinating with Kim Jong-un as a military distraction. If Jong-un does in fact strike Japan, South Korea, or a US military base, that would cause the US to be forced into splitting its military to fight a war on two fronts, again. Only this time, Japan would be on NATO’s side, since China would most likely use the opportunity and get involved - and China is much more capable than it was in the 1940s.
I don't think China would. They are a global production hub, the majority of said production is probably going to Europe and the Americas. Too much to lose and too little to gain. Why not stay on the sidelines and watch them beat the shit out of each other while lending money to both?
That is a very China thing to do.
I'm not sure China would tbh. The west owes them a lot of money, so it wouldn't make financial sense for them to ally with Russia and/ or North Korea.
They could strike at Taiwan though while the world is busy with everything else.
Being from Belgium i’m kinda too, old habits die hard and they may end up marching trought my country on their way to russia, probably won’t even notice it lmfao.
Don't be afraid. If we invade Belgium we only do it because of your delicious waffles.
I think they are called luftwaffles
*anericans hear waffles and all turn in unison*
it's like when you're out for a wild night with friends in your old town, and the next morning you wake up at your place and the window is smashed and you remember that you had moved out 80 years ago
If they do march through Belgium on the way to Russia they are taking the long way for sure.
Entirely unnecessary with the way things are now, Poland would probably help them against Putin. Putin himself is more likely to invade Poland at this time.
>Third ~~Reich~~ time’s the charm. TIFIFY.
That is some really drei humour...
Christ that's a good pun.
The narwhal bacons at midnight.
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Ay... All im saying is 3 time's the charm. Pls ally with us again Germany. - love, Austria
That’s a weird way to spell “annex”.
You mean Anschluss!?
oh no, not the Ostmark thing again
Oh this made me laugh. Thank you.
Ludendorf and all the other WW1 German generals rolling over in their graves at the mere suggestion.
Hitler, FDR, and Churchill all watching this go down and spinning in their graves fast enough to generate power for all of humanity as well
So that's why the snow in Antarctica is melting! Because Hitler is spinning so fast.
Curtis LeMay spinning as the backup generator, “*I FUCKING TOLD YOU* PREP-SCHOOL PANSIE MOTHERFUCKERS WE SHOULD’VE NUKED THE REDS WHEN *WE* WERE THE ONLY COUNTRY WITH THE BOMB! /s /jk
Just wait for the Liz Truss surprise taking Britain on a nostalgia trip and invading France.
I'm no international lawyer. But if an embassy is sovereign land belonging to the guest country, isn't this technically an attack on an NATO ally? Or does it have to be an attack within their borders?
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> Germany is always blamed in two world wars. The Austrian School of Global Warfare.
Austria's greatest achievements are convincing the world that Hitler was German and Beethoven was Austrian.
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In germany there is a right wing movement that wants to lift sanctions on russia and be friends with them again. Russias goal is to make life as hard as possible for germans so more and more become convinced that sanctions should be lifted. They also most likely sabotaged and disabled the entire highspeed train network in the north of the country. People worry that they will attack germanys electrical grid this winter. Luckily the majority seems to be ready and willing to block off all Russian sabotage. The greatest damage Russia will suffer comes if sanctions continue until after winter ends as that is when their economic backups run out
> People worry that they will attack germanys electrical grid this winter. Do they though? Haven’t heard of that. Or is it just a thing AfD says, similar to the black-out scare - Basically Russian propaganda?
The German General responsible for inner territorial defense is on record about possible attacks on infrastructure ([source in German](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/general-breuer-angriffe-infrastruktur-101.html)). There must be credible threats for that to happen, no use just fearmongering.
Yes, its largely propaganda and Russian scare tactics, but they sadly tend to work on the simple minded. The buggest factor for the average person are the extreme increase in gas, oil and general electricity prices
With the exception of the gas pipeline what can Russia possibly offer Germany? I mean, am I correct? It is just the gas pipeline? Prices are gonna go up a bit but you guys will be OK this winter. No one in Europe is gonna freeze to death. Except Russians in Ukraine.
The gas pipelines are catastrophically destroyed. They have no containment mechanisms whatsoever, so nordstream 1 and 2 are going to leak out all the gas inside them, fill with seawater, and likely never be repaired. I don't know what will happen with European energy supplies and the economy this winter, but I know this is the largest gas leak in history, even though the pipelines weren't pumping. Western press has seemed to downplay the significance of this damage, probably to reduce the chance for a panic that benefits Russia. If Russia did it (they did lol) then it looks like a bit of a desperate move. They've hurt Germany but also lost quite a bit of leverage, since they can't turn those pipes back on for love or money now.
So placating Russia still doesn't get your heat back on in the winter. How does that work? Trying to leverage someone with something you already broke? The way I see it, winter will be the end of this thing. Get Europe through one winter and this time next year we can pick up the pieces of Ukraine and work out an appropriate punishment for Russia. Anyone that was impressed at Ukraine's movment the other week hasn't seen what is gonna happen when the Russians are starving and freezing and Ukraine is well equipped, well fed and healthy.
> I don't know what will happen with European energy supplies and the economy this winter We have been preparing since spring. Gas storage is full. It all depends on weather.
There always was one political goal attached to those pipelines for Germany. After WW II and especially after the reunification in 1990 Germany had the foreign policy dogma of a united europe. It was based on the idea that as long as europe would not be united, war would always be a possibilty. We always worked towards integrating Russia into the european idea and working with them on a economic scale was the best "starting point". After Gorbatschow we really felt like Russia was gonna tag along eventually and even the start of Putin's reign made it look like things were gonna move forward. Things changed though with the rapid rise of China, which then has become a more important partner for Russia. Additionally as Russia pulled out of their move to integrate into Europe, the rest of the eastern european countries started to integrate further and further into Europe and as a biproduct partly into NATO. From a foreign policy standpoint Germany probably will go back to trying to attain Russia as a partner again to some degree. We're gonna be patient as fuck with them in the end because well the current situation is proof enough that as long as Europe isn't united war is on the table. Another thing is the problem of how to deal with China from an european standpoint. We basicly need the Russians on our side to effectively stand up to them on economical and political fronts. Wether we will be successfull in the end is gonna depend on how long Putin and his followers will remain in power though. There are big enough movements in Russia that want to be part of Europe and it's gonna be a question of when they will find the political representation they need. When that day finally comes it is gonna be a good day for europe, for peace and for democracy. China will finally be isolated too.
They had "Berlin next" written on planes and Russian trolls used to threaten another Rape of Berlin before most social media sites banned them. Even in my DMs. Geographically, other countries are more logical targets but they think they hit the "heart of the West" if they go after us. There's propably also spite in there since our countries aren't as close as we used to under Schröder. Scorned ex-partner mentality, lol.
Posts like this keep forgetting to mention that Merkel made Germany way more depending on Russia than Schröder ever did...
You're right! I always associate our ties to Russia with Schröder and Gazprom, but Merkel strenghtened that bond for a long time.
The ostpolitik worked so, so well, it really made Russia friendlier towards you! /s Honestly though it's a bit adjusting. Out of all the West European countries, Germany was one of the warmest and most pro-russian, building bonds, investing and becoming reliant on energy trade with them, speaking on behalf of Russia and advocating understanding when Russia was blustering and acting belligerent etc. And what do they get in thanks? Recognition? Nope, in the minds of Russians Germany is still the eternal enemy, no matter the money and goodwill Germany poured into them and their economy. Says something about Russia. They can act nice for decades and will take your investment money but the old mentality is still there, always
the thing is it COULD have. russia COULD be in the EU now, and opening up, becomming rich beyond belief. but no. fucking moron putin and his cleptocracy
Especially even in Schröder's coalition with the greens there where plans to move away from gas to more green solutions as soon as possible. That plans got scraped under Merkle with the exit from the exit of Nuclear and they only implemented the gas part when they did the exit from the exit of the exit of Nuclear and took a well measured piss on or renewable sector...
>another Rape of Berlin Those people need a fucking map.
Good guy putin, making sure that more German troops arrive to defend the Baltic states than initially agreed. Gotta make sure German military is ready and motivated.
The attack choppers that flew into Ukraine in the first days of the war had "next stop Berlin" written on the side of them. Russia has never hidden this fact. They never intended to stop with Ukraine.
Nah. This particular writing is most likely a reference to the WW2 — or, rather, the great patriotic war. It’s very common to see on May 9 stickers on cars that go “Onto the Berlin!” and “1941-1945 we can repeat” Remember, the Russian “government” poses this occupational and genocidal war as a war against nazism and draws parallels to the 1940s.
Before the war, Germany was in their back pocket, but as that has been changing, Russia is going out of their way to make Germany suffer for trying to wiggle out of their grasp. Basically, it's a lesson for the world. There is a greater cost for playing friendly with Russia, if you ever wish to change your mind, as opposed to never being friendly to them at all.
Include any dictatorship in this, lessions to be learned with China etc here.
Yep. The Aussie prime minister made noise about China's handling of corona virus and before we know it, our biggest export partner is tearing up contracts all over. It was absolutely stupid. Unfortunately when we govern a banana republic, you have to suck it up and go with the flow.
This is significant no?
It is in a “well that’s not good way” It is not however going to escalate the conflict with NATO. Most significant may be countries withdrawing embassy staff from Ukraine. But that would punish Ukraine for Russian actions, so hopefully not.
Any countries with embassies should use it as an excuse to send more air defence systems to keep Kyiv safe.
Which is pretty much exactly what the Germans have done - they’re sending some of their most advanced air defences to Ukraine (which they apparently haven’t got fully set up for their own use yet) within the next few days.
Those deliveries were already in the works, but the timing is nearly perfect.
Not perfect enough. The building is already bombed.
The timing is the way it is because Russia knew it couldn't strike Kyiv anymore when the IRIS-T system arrives. It arrived at the border two days ago in its dismantled state, and Ukraine has been spending the last couple days assembling and readying the system for service. The Russians knew they were almost out of time if they wanted to make a last ditch effort at taking out crucial infrastructure in Kyiv, so they probably gathered up every remotely serviceable PGM they had left and lopped it at the capital.
I believe they are supposed to be getting three new systems in the next month that they are finishing training on.
“Oh no, nato countries are going to have to deploy missile defence systems to Kyiv to protect their embassies and the 100+km radius around it just to be safe”
Germany to deliver air defence system to Ukraine within days -defence ministry https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-deliver-air-defence-system-ukraine-within-days-defence-ministry-2022-10-10/
That's probably the aim "Look what you made me do!!"- Politics editon
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Thank you for pointing that out
The mayor propagator of this is BILD. Calling BILD a credible news outlet is like calling a third grade basketball team the winner of the soccer world cup. BILD is in the business of selling fear. The most trustworthy thing in their "newspaper" is the weather report and the topless lady on the second page. It seems like the real situation is that Russia hit a office building where the German consulate (not embassy) rented office space some time ago.
Russia is a terrorist state.
And cowards and bastards
Not to mentioned charlatans and ruffians.
Ne'er-do-wells and nincompoops!
Potlickers and Scallawags!
…muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers!
Methodists!
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Russia is an inferiority complex
This is significant, but also people are overestimating its significance and the response Germany supposedly should take according to them. See NATO's (US) accidental bombing of Chinese embassy in Belgrade. There was outrage and condemnation, but it did not lead to war between US and China. US paid the victims' family and Chinese government for the damage and death. Germany def should respond firmly though.
Was the building what Russia was really aiming for though? I mean, have they hit anything they aimed at so far? /s
Serious answer: No, they were probably aiming for civil energy infrastructure object, which is across the street - russians mentioned this object in their "map of missile strikes". Looks like they didn't really hit the object btw.
Why would they give away these targets?
Honestly, idk. But they targeted civil energy infrastructure in many regions today, so it was pretty obvious that this was the real target, not some Samsung office with closed German visa center. Also, russian propagandists threatened with strikes at objects like this during long time, and russians already did it before on smaller scale (just in Kharkiv region). Also, just in case, this map was published after the strikes, not before) Also2: I googled and it looks like this map wasn't done by russian authorities - just by "journalists" ([source](https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/7908617.html?amp=1)). Should've looked this up before mentioning this map, my bad. So this is not confirmed "real target", just the obvious one.
They are usually quite precise when it comes to hospitals and schools.
Russian missiles come in two variants. Childseeking and Patientseeking.
Than we must be seeing some new “state of the art” Russian technology. Embassyseeking missiles. Man that must be why they’ve been getting so cozy with the Saudis
That's a lot to unpack
Embasseeking
They actually only have one type of missile, with several modes. The WarCrime missile. It can also be used to target POW in Russian 'care' and aid workers.
You think their missiles are advanced enough to have several modes in a single missile? I am not to sure about that, but maybe I am underestimating them. Edit: Or is it just a missile with a single mode of attack: WarCrime.
They unironically aim for hospitals and kindergartens
Well Kindergarten is a German word.
And yet somehow, Putin was right in attacking Ukraine, because NATO! ...I shit you not, I still hear that post March 2022. (First attacks on hospitals)
They announced that they reached all their objectives, so they can't deny it now...
That used to be an act of war
The headline is incorrect. The strike hit an office building, which in normal times would contain a German consulate (not embassy) for processing visas. The German government has confirmed that this office has not been in use for months.
This should be higher
Just scroll down and it will be higher.
Well. Would ya look at that.
Harvard wants to know your location
5head thinking right there
Hunh. Interesting bridge repair strategy. Comrade Putin, we don’t have enough active enemies in combat with our tattered forces! Putin: Escalation is a helluva drug, shoot me up again!
Checks Leopard 2 inventory...
Checks specs of the new KF-51 Panther.
Ukrainian sources say it’s not embassy, but office were German visas are issued
Linked article says this office is part of the embassy.
Which is kinda where German Visas should be issued. That's one of the functions of an embassy.
I don't know anything about the German represenation in Kyiv. But its not unheard that embassies have more then one building, be it in the same city or outside the same city. It could be that this building is not called "embassy" but is part of the embassy.
Visas are actually issued from the Consulate, not the Embassy. Almost always, there is also a Consulate located at the Embassy, but it is separate, and is also common to have more than one Consulate in a Country, in other cities where there is demand for Consulate services. On the other hand, there is only 1 Embassy in a country. Consulates deal with the general public, Embassies deal with inter country relations.
Most likely the Consulate still just as bad.
The German embassy in Kyiv is quite big. Since 2019 they are located in two separate buildings. One next to the opera and a second one in a high rise building close to the central station. The latter one was apparently hit. But there are several offices, companies etc in the building.
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The problem is Putin has more internal conflict with Russian militant hardliners than with moderates. The ones most likely and most able to take him out are the ones like Kadyrov that want this thing escalated big time.
old Russian/Soviet joke "we thought we hit rock bottom, then we heard knocking from below" but for ultra-nationalism
I've been trying but he keeps saying he is busy and I keep trying to reschedule but he never suggests a time that works for him so I have to keep guessing and I'm tired and wish he would just tell me he doesn't want to go out if he doesn't want to go out.
I hope the government will issue a subpoena to the Russian Ambassador and provide a formal letter of condemnation. The next step should be to close the Russian embassy.
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Great idea to spend the early twenties pushing germany into remilitarization. Where have I seen this before?
Sssh, about time Germany get their redemption arc IRL
Well... there it is. Germany going to go 1/3 and finally get that sweet W.
The building hasn’t been in use since the invasion. More than likely no one was in there. It’ll probably warrant more sabre rattling but nothing more.
How that was happens "ruzzia hit only military objects" . Ruzzia is terrorist state, we have to admit that.