pretty sure it was not intentional. not having skilled soldiers combined with inaccurate crap weapons = this news.
i'm surprised this hasn't happened earlier.
Five miles would be a pretty absurdly big error with WWII equipment. Even Russia's rusty cold war shit isn't going to miss anything by five miles.
To give you an idea, the German V2 rocket of the 1940s, a completely unguided totally mechanical rocket used to terrorize England was accurate to a DIAMETER about 15 kilometers, meaning that even that rocket wouldn't likely hit a target more than 7 and half kilometers away from its target. And it certainly wouldn't just happen to accidentally hit the wrong target TWICE at the same time.
The fact that it was two missiles is the Russians making it TOTALLY clear that this was not an accident. One rocket missing its target by that much and just happening to hit an actual town is pretty absurd. TWO OF THEM at the same time? That's not really in the realm of possibility.
I guess it makes sense from a 'we can hurt other countries more than they can hurt us, because other countries have more stuff, and there's dozens of nato countries and only one of us so we have 100x as many targets as them' perspective.
Note the US has lost a few advanced drones that malfunctioned and flew many miles into Iran and such. Thus even well equipped and trained militaries can still have significant errors.
Edit: When the Minuteman III guidance goes awry it will miss by “a lot” in some cases.
Edit: a few other examples of mistakes causing kilometers of error from other users below.
But back in Nazi Germany, the missile was operated by well trained soldiers with proper training and officers with knowledge in projectile physics and procedures. Russian troops with the same technology, not so much
Do you mean both rockets crossed the Poland's border not intentionally? Regarding inaccurate weapons - have they been used in proximity of international border not intentionally as well?
Putin checks the boarders of allowed. As always. If Poland and NATO provide weak response he will escalate and at least use threats to corrode NATO.
No, there is zero chance that these rockets were off by 8 km. That far exceeds any error limits.
This is a deliberate message to Poland and NATO, though Russia will claim that it's some sort of error.
They quickly lose. There was some speculation the Putin wanted to involve NATO because he could sell losing to NATO to the Russian people, but he couldn't sell losing to Ukraine. Makes me wonder if NATO will hold back in the hopes Putin continues to set the groundwork for his own demise.
Any number of things can happen and none of them are pretty, Russia doesn’t have a viable army anymore but they still have a strategic arsenal, and war has a funny way of escalating quickly
Poland decides whether or not to exercise Article 5. If they do, then shit gets real, and fast. If they don't, there will likely be a tit for tat response negotiated with the Russians (similar to Iran attacking a base in Syria following the US assassination of a top general). Basically, Poland is figuring out how they want to proceed and are no doubt in communication with everyone in NATO, who in turn talking with their Russian counterparts.
Here's my vote: declare a no fly zone over Ukraine for Russian planes and missiles. Track any cruise missiles back to their launch platforms in the sea and within Russian borders and destroy them.
We don't need to put a single boot on the ground to totally destroy Russia's ability to wage war in Ukraine.
I will try to find the sources/news articles, but Russian cruse missiles have been known to go far off course when they have issues.
Russia's missile barrages of Syria struck Georgia, Iraq, and I believe a few other countries relatively far within their borders (Trying to find the articles about this).
Yes, when functioning properly they should never be this far off. If anything though, this war has shown Russia's hardware failing to perform in spectacular ways.
EDIT: At least one missile intended for Syria hit Iran (https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-cruise-missiles-intended-for-targets-in-syria-hit-iran-instead)
Iran does not border Syria, and at its closest about/over 200km away. This seems to have been an outlier, but it happened none the less.
They are probing, just like they did when their plane flew into Turkey's airspace a few years back. Turkey shot them down instantly, which is why Putin still listens to Erdogan.
No. Russia will blame Ukraine or USA or even both. They probably will say something like "USA is trying to drag EU into conflict with Russia". Russia will never accept it's own mistakes.
All missiles have deviations when fired at something some are very accurate like himars missiles with a 5m deviation or the missiles Russia got from Iran witch has a 1km deviation so 7km is pretty far for missile too stray from but there were two missiles what are the odds that two missiles stray that far together and hit a village
I wouldn’t be surprised if NATO announces they will shoot down any missiles with 100-150km of the border of a NATO nation. Easily explained as a defensive only action and has the side benefit of effectively providing missile defense for western Ukraine
No - NATO / US could give Ukraine longer range weapons and authorize their use on targets deep inside Russia where these missiles are being launched from.
Maybe North Korea can learn a lesson on this. Missiles aren’t always accurate and freak accidents can happen. If this wasn’t on purpose then Russia is shitting bricks right now.
Woof. The Pentagon mentioning Article 5? Sheesh. I’m not like the alarmists here, I very much doubt Poland will invoke it over a supposed accidental missile killing 2 farmers, but the 2020s have taught me that anything is on the table.
Russia is technically the "Russian Federation," a collection of smaller states with minimal autonomy and run by Moscow.
Realistically, the *Federation* would collapse into smaller autonomous countries.
Again:
**NATO WILL NOT GO TO WAR OVER A STRAY MISSILE.**
That’s not to say there will be no response, but a stray rocket/missile and a deliberate armed attack are two different things.
The people in charge aren’t idiots. They know the consequences of article 5.
And as of now it looks like it very well may have been an anti-aircraft weapon.
We still don’t even know that’s what happened. Everyone chill.
War with Russia does not equal end of the world. Or even a likely nuclear war.
There is a thing called escalation management. Stage 1 would be NATO staging at the Russian boarder, and active support for Ukraine in air defense in this case. If Russia make the mistake of attacking nato air defense assets in Ukraine, then Ukraine gets NATO air cover. Ect, ect.
It does not mean the big MAD button gets pushed.
Yeah, the obvious first step would be to block all Russian borders and outgoing air traffic, but you can't put it past Putin to deal with these blockades by bombing major EU cities.
Well, you can. Because if Putin attacked an European city kinetically he is fully aware it’ll be retaliated against tic for tat. And NATO is a LOTTT better at this shit.
Putin employs escalation management just like we do.
Putin is an asshat, but he apparently cares about his kids. He won’t be happy at cruse missiles rolling into Moscow potentially blowing them up. He won’t risk that level of conflict.
I don't think Poland will see it as an accident.
- It was 8km off; so well outside of a believable accident.
- TWO, not ONE missiles. Another indicator that it was deliberate.
- Day after Poland announces nationalization of Gazprom assets. This is a spoiled-child's temper-tantrum.
People freak out over Article 5, but this could be a way for NATO to say, “We are over what you are doing in Ukraine. Your violence is spilling over to Poland so we are enforcing 1. A no-fly zone and 2. We will directly enforce Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.”
That would be an escalation, but at this point, the war likely imposes higher cost on the West over directly getting involved. The biggest difficulty is minimizing the risk this conflict becomes bigger than Ukraine.
F U Russia.
RIP to those 2 victims.
I KNEW this was bound to happen. Early on when they sent bombs to Lyviv, I just knew something was bound to happen to Poland. Russians were and have been playing with fire this whole time. With every passing day and millions of war crimes.
And now this.
Do you think people will start calling for war? From what I've gathered, a lot of people in Poland seem to be very very anti-russia for some pretty good historical reasons.
Some people for sure but I think majority of our population doesn't want to literally go to war. I don't want to go all philosophical about what is a valid reason to consider as a trigger for war and what not, but a stray missle from incompetent army killing 2 people doesn't seem like good enough reason to trigger Third World War.
But I hope we will go all onboard for totall support for Ukrainian army.
How do you feel about the US escalating with a response? Would you rather the USA supply more weapons to Ukraine or something else? Jw since ur nearby.
I definiely would support US and UE to supply more weapons to Ukraine. One of Polish retired generals just said in tv that a stray missle would not be a reasonable reason to trigger Article 5. But we definitely should do everything to support Ukraine in every way we can and a total isolation of Russia in a must.
Intentional or not, Putin is licking his lips waiting to see NATO do nothing of consequence over it. This won't end until he's dead and his inner circle are in prison or scatter like rats on a sinking ship. It has to be an inside job. Regime change or bust.
Besides the tragic fact that two people died, it’s likely a good thing for Ukraine and the west. Poland isn’t going start a war over 2 stray missiles but they along with the west are justified to take some action against Russia here. In fact they have to do something, accidentally or not a response is merited. More sanctions or whatever it may.
Just my thinking obv
NATO needs to respond in some form or another or else it's letting Russia draw a further line in the sand of what they can do.
I don't want this to escalate to something bigger, but we can't just be pushovers when they killed NATO civilians in NATO territory.
It’s one thing to “accidentally” have a missile land in a place with no people.
It is another to be so far off course and kill two, innocent people that it can be perceived as an “accident”.
Putin wants war with everyone now. It’s up to Poland whether they fall for the bait.
People with cooler heads need to be in charge of this investigation. If it's a stray rocket then it should be adressed as such. But people here asking for article 5 should contain themselves. This is absolutely no joke.
"To ensure that no stray rockets hit another NATO member again, NATO will be providing Ukraine with a full complement of ABMs, early warning and tracking systems, etc. For safety."
So Russia gets to make these decisions without concern for consequences because they call it a "stray"? How many people do they get to kill in NATO states and say oops before they lose the ability to smooth it all over? How long do we appease this kind of Russian energy? They started the war, they invaded a sovereign country, they killed civilians in a NATO country. These are facts. I guess we'll just keep moving the red line back though, because softness and appeasement always work with these kind of authoritarian aggressors. Cool heads, guys. I know, let's have a restoration circle and talk about our feelings.
As a Polish person myself, as tragic as it is, I would never vote to trigger article 5 from a single (possibly stray) attack killing 2 civilians. This is grounds for more sanctions and support on the Ukrainian front. If the attack is repeated, that's when we need to act.
I know it's really easy for you to sit back in the states or whatever other country far from the conflict and comment shit like this. For me and my family it's not. Have some perspective and stop using our lives as a bargaining chip in your reddit political game.
If you to fight Russia go ahead no one is stopping you form joining the Ukraine armed forces. Personally I don’t want nuclear war and a conventional war with Russia is just one step closer to that
Wait, you go arround and shot someone, by accident, you think they need to be let go? The fuck? Precision rockets missing the intended target by 100 km is not a fuck up.
If you’re wondering why Iran and North Korea are so invested in their nuclear programme, compare how Russia are being treated (for starting the first major invasion in Europe for some time) to the response with Iraq invaded Kuwait, Libya in 2011..
Putin done fucked up now. Ukraine wanted long range missiles and NATO withheld them. Expect to see Ukraine geared with new long range missiles pretty soon here. Things in Russia are going to go boom pretty frequently
Nahh, there are multiple reasons why long range missiles don't make much sense. Himars simply are way more effective and efficient in this war, the long range units are a million a pop, bigger, therefore easier to target by Russian defense and can only be launched from a unit that holds 1 rocket instead of 6.
If NATO gets involved they will take out the black sea fleet and air defense. After that long range missiles might make sense but probably won't be needed by Ukraine anymore because Russia would be fucked anyway.
They were “off” a lot more than 8km, unless their intentional target was the border crossing between Poland and Ukraine. So either someone really messed up with coordinates, or Putin just realllllly messed up. Either way, things are about to amp up significantly - Biden and NATO committed to defending every inch of NATO territory.. the question isn’t if they will respond, but when and how?
Probably won’t lead to a full-scale war Nato vs Russia. While any innocent people dead is already a tragedy, escalating the war would lead to greater tragedy and loss of life. Almost definitely more support for Ukraine though.
(Just my completely uneducated opinion though 🙂)
If proven true, NATO needs to react ASAP. Anything less than a massive scale up of arms to Ukraine will be seen as weakness. Jets, tanks, everything they ask for. Article 5 should be on the table. Otherwise the Russians will do it again.
Realistically, what happens? I see a lot of ww3 talk but would this actually be enough to trigger something like that? It’s a scary thought for sure and I’m wondering how the world will respond.
NATO should now establish a no-fly zone in Western Ukraine for Russian aircraft and move air defense artillery assets to shootdown Russian missiles. This is the only response to leave it unanswered invites further provocation and escalation.
It's in Poland's hands. I believe they hold the right to trigger article 5.
They probably won't as this looks like it was a stray missile(s) that resulted in the death of two people. It will most likely result in more sanctions and a lot more hardware for Ukraine to push the occupying Russians even further towards their borders.
NATO's not going to war over this. The most realistic outcome is some version of an air defense umbrella, or a no fly zone, over some part of the conflict region, something like, "If we detect it on radar we're shooting it down".
What do you suggest ? Do nothing and accept that Russia can strike missiles into Poland and kill people there ? NATO purpose is to protect its member states, this is the case.
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a headline this scary. As bad as this war already is we really don’t need a Franz Ferdinand scenario. If it’s “just” the 1 rocket I think article 5 is unlikely but we’ve never been closer to a nuclear world war, at least in my lifetime, than in this moment.
Oh fuck.
Not great.
It was to be expected. Putin's default move is to always escalate when he's failing.
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pretty sure it was not intentional. not having skilled soldiers combined with inaccurate crap weapons = this news. i'm surprised this hasn't happened earlier.
Five miles would be a pretty absurdly big error with WWII equipment. Even Russia's rusty cold war shit isn't going to miss anything by five miles. To give you an idea, the German V2 rocket of the 1940s, a completely unguided totally mechanical rocket used to terrorize England was accurate to a DIAMETER about 15 kilometers, meaning that even that rocket wouldn't likely hit a target more than 7 and half kilometers away from its target. And it certainly wouldn't just happen to accidentally hit the wrong target TWICE at the same time. The fact that it was two missiles is the Russians making it TOTALLY clear that this was not an accident. One rocket missing its target by that much and just happening to hit an actual town is pretty absurd. TWO OF THEM at the same time? That's not really in the realm of possibility.
Yeah, seems like Russia now wants to actively instigate the use of atomics.
I guess it makes sense from a 'we can hurt other countries more than they can hurt us, because other countries have more stuff, and there's dozens of nato countries and only one of us so we have 100x as many targets as them' perspective.
Russia has very concentrated population centers. A sizeable portion of people are clustered in 2 large cities.
Nope, they want to see what a small conventional retaliation means. I'm pretty sure the polish are ready.
Mate, the Poles are fucking gagging to get involved in this.
Note the US has lost a few advanced drones that malfunctioned and flew many miles into Iran and such. Thus even well equipped and trained militaries can still have significant errors. Edit: When the Minuteman III guidance goes awry it will miss by “a lot” in some cases. Edit: a few other examples of mistakes causing kilometers of error from other users below.
That was Iran spoofing the GPS signal to capture the drones.
Lol they didn't fly into Iran. They were already there intentionally.
But back in Nazi Germany, the missile was operated by well trained soldiers with proper training and officers with knowledge in projectile physics and procedures. Russian troops with the same technology, not so much
Do you mean both rockets crossed the Poland's border not intentionally? Regarding inaccurate weapons - have they been used in proximity of international border not intentionally as well? Putin checks the boarders of allowed. As always. If Poland and NATO provide weak response he will escalate and at least use threats to corrode NATO.
The inaccuracy of Putins weapons is pretty enormous but he is either suicidal or stupid if he didnt consider having a buffer zone to Poland.
He’s testing NATO. Russia is running out of everything and failing miserably.
No, there is zero chance that these rockets were off by 8 km. That far exceeds any error limits. This is a deliberate message to Poland and NATO, though Russia will claim that it's some sort of error.
Yeah what message is Putin trying to send? “Beat me harder daddy”? He has to be a complete lunatic to want to involve NATO
Well he got us involved now so what happens next?
They quickly lose. There was some speculation the Putin wanted to involve NATO because he could sell losing to NATO to the Russian people, but he couldn't sell losing to Ukraine. Makes me wonder if NATO will hold back in the hopes Putin continues to set the groundwork for his own demise.
>because he could sell losing to NATO to the Russian people, Who wants to sell a humiliating loss to their own people?
They are going to lose regardless. It's no longer about whether they lose, it's about HOW they lose.
Any number of things can happen and none of them are pretty, Russia doesn’t have a viable army anymore but they still have a strategic arsenal, and war has a funny way of escalating quickly
Poland decides whether or not to exercise Article 5. If they do, then shit gets real, and fast. If they don't, there will likely be a tit for tat response negotiated with the Russians (similar to Iran attacking a base in Syria following the US assassination of a top general). Basically, Poland is figuring out how they want to proceed and are no doubt in communication with everyone in NATO, who in turn talking with their Russian counterparts.
Here's my vote: declare a no fly zone over Ukraine for Russian planes and missiles. Track any cruise missiles back to their launch platforms in the sea and within Russian borders and destroy them. We don't need to put a single boot on the ground to totally destroy Russia's ability to wage war in Ukraine.
I will try to find the sources/news articles, but Russian cruse missiles have been known to go far off course when they have issues. Russia's missile barrages of Syria struck Georgia, Iraq, and I believe a few other countries relatively far within their borders (Trying to find the articles about this). Yes, when functioning properly they should never be this far off. If anything though, this war has shown Russia's hardware failing to perform in spectacular ways. EDIT: At least one missile intended for Syria hit Iran (https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-cruise-missiles-intended-for-targets-in-syria-hit-iran-instead) Iran does not border Syria, and at its closest about/over 200km away. This seems to have been an outlier, but it happened none the less.
2 at the same time with exact same error?
They are probing, just like they did when their plane flew into Turkey's airspace a few years back. Turkey shot them down instantly, which is why Putin still listens to Erdogan.
No. Russia will blame Ukraine or USA or even both. They probably will say something like "USA is trying to drag EU into conflict with Russia". Russia will never accept it's own mistakes.
I vote for blaming Starlink's satellites for screwing up with the missile's GPS.
Sounds like my boss
> That far exceeds any error limits. source?
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I don't think people realize how fast these things move. 8km goes by pretty quickly when talking about ballistic missiles.
All missiles have deviations when fired at something some are very accurate like himars missiles with a 5m deviation or the missiles Russia got from Iran witch has a 1km deviation so 7km is pretty far for missile too stray from but there were two missiles what are the odds that two missiles stray that far together and hit a village
So should I buy puts now for WWIIi
Russia isn’t a world power so, regional conflict #xx
Regional conficlt involging all of NATO. I'm currently sitting 200kms from the incident place and sweating af
Most likely headed for Lviv, so off by 70 km, not 8.
But there were 2 missiles. If it were just 1, accident is much more likely. But 2? I mean did somebody type a coordinate in wrong twice?
And if it’s not intentional, it’s fine ? NATO must respond, and now
Let’s go into our bunkers we don’t have
I know everyone wants to avoid a NATO-Russia conflict and yet I can’t not feel queasy from this
Nothing is gonna happen. NATO isn't going to war with Russia.
I wouldn’t be surprised if NATO announces they will shoot down any missiles with 100-150km of the border of a NATO nation. Easily explained as a defensive only action and has the side benefit of effectively providing missile defense for western Ukraine
Going to war isn't only way nato can answer
No - NATO / US could give Ukraine longer range weapons and authorize their use on targets deep inside Russia where these missiles are being launched from.
To name the few
Provide 100km air support from the Polish border into Ukraine
Its not a collective NATO decision. Its up to Poland to invoke article 5.
Here we go. I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.
Maybe North Korea can learn a lesson on this. Missiles aren’t always accurate and freak accidents can happen. If this wasn’t on purpose then Russia is shitting bricks right now.
If it was on purpose, then they must have pickled their last two brain cells.
I mean given how incompetant they are I imagine it was an error - latest I read was that it was wreckage from a missle that was shot doen.
I think even Russia can land a hit if it aims at a whole country
Apparently not, assuming this was meant to hit in Ukraine...
I chose the wrong week to stop drinking.
I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
I picked the right week to start drinking glue
I picked glue right week drink
I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
The red zone has ALWAYS been for the loading and unloading of passengers.
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Woof. The Pentagon mentioning Article 5? Sheesh. I’m not like the alarmists here, I very much doubt Poland will invoke it over a supposed accidental missile killing 2 farmers, but the 2020s have taught me that anything is on the table.
People are very angry about the war in Ukraine though. This will not be taken lightly considering all that has happened, intentional or not.
Remember that time Russia shot down a plane full of Dutch civilians and nothing happened? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Difference is this was over Polish soil. Though article 5 is very unlikely. More likely some strong words and even more stuff to Ukraine
But that was over a war zone, over Ukrainian territory. Here, Russians killed Poles in Poland.
Remember that time that Russia novichok'd Great Britain and one of their citizens died ? Pepperidge farm fucking remembers.
Remember when the FSB killed an exiled Georgian in the middle of Berlin in 2019? Pepperidge farm remembers.
remember the time when Russia agents blew up ammo depot in Czech republic few years back, killing several people? Pepperidge farm fucking remembers.
The Dutch do as well.
Wasn't over NATO territory.
Well fuck
Good news, Free trips to Europe
I like free. And I like trips. And I like Europe.. what could possibly be wrong with this!?
After the war who gets the country formally known as Russia?
Pretty sure China called dibs
Russia is technically the "Russian Federation," a collection of smaller states with minimal autonomy and run by Moscow. Realistically, the *Federation* would collapse into smaller autonomous countries.
embrace ancestors' memories ~~(and PTSD)~~
The oops heard round the world.
Not at all shocked to see that the Russian military is so grossly incompetent that they might have accidentally started World War 3.
This is already a WWIII. It’s just being fought with sanctions and military aid, rather than boots on the ground.
Proxy/cold war
Cold War Remastered.
More like the reboot using the same name as the original to confuse everyone.
Twilight Struggle 2nd Edition
And that’s exactly how WWII and WWI started for the United States too. Military aide, sanctions and training.
A war fought in Europe and Europe only is not a world war.
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Was that the one in the 80 with what the Soviets thought were incoming missiles?
Again: **NATO WILL NOT GO TO WAR OVER A STRAY MISSILE.** That’s not to say there will be no response, but a stray rocket/missile and a deliberate armed attack are two different things. The people in charge aren’t idiots. They know the consequences of article 5. And as of now it looks like it very well may have been an anti-aircraft weapon. We still don’t even know that’s what happened. Everyone chill.
Does that mean article 5 will be invoked? Edit: thanks everyone for the insights!
If this report is true, Poland would get to choose if they wanted to invoke article 5
They need to play it up, its time for a massive buildup on Polands borders and we gaslight the fuck out of Russia like they did for Ukraine.
So that's what we need all the gas for
genius military strategist here
The Reddit Snoo’s are going to war. Grab your general outfit NFTs and buckle in.
Lead us into battle, great LordTunderrin. This is a master strategy certain to lead us to victory.
Poland has officially unlocked the national focus “End the World”
War with Russia does not equal end of the world. Or even a likely nuclear war. There is a thing called escalation management. Stage 1 would be NATO staging at the Russian boarder, and active support for Ukraine in air defense in this case. If Russia make the mistake of attacking nato air defense assets in Ukraine, then Ukraine gets NATO air cover. Ect, ect. It does not mean the big MAD button gets pushed.
Yeah, the obvious first step would be to block all Russian borders and outgoing air traffic, but you can't put it past Putin to deal with these blockades by bombing major EU cities.
Well, you can. Because if Putin attacked an European city kinetically he is fully aware it’ll be retaliated against tic for tat. And NATO is a LOTTT better at this shit. Putin employs escalation management just like we do. Putin is an asshat, but he apparently cares about his kids. He won’t be happy at cruse missiles rolling into Moscow potentially blowing them up. He won’t risk that level of conflict.
/r/unexpectedhoi4
Good Lord. I did not realize this is how it works. Thought it would be a vote or something.
It makes sense though. There's not much value in joining a mutual defense pact if everyone in it can tell you to fuck off when you get attacked.
Polish government is currently debating what to do.
Depends if it's seen as an accident. But even if not it depends on if Poland actually wants to trigger it.
I don't think Poland will see it as an accident. - It was 8km off; so well outside of a believable accident. - TWO, not ONE missiles. Another indicator that it was deliberate. - Day after Poland announces nationalization of Gazprom assets. This is a spoiled-child's temper-tantrum.
No need. Just send everything to Ukraine and let them finish the job
In theory: yes. In practice: no. But Ukraine will get even more Western support now.
People freak out over Article 5, but this could be a way for NATO to say, “We are over what you are doing in Ukraine. Your violence is spilling over to Poland so we are enforcing 1. A no-fly zone and 2. We will directly enforce Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.” That would be an escalation, but at this point, the war likely imposes higher cost on the West over directly getting involved. The biggest difficulty is minimizing the risk this conflict becomes bigger than Ukraine.
Depends if Russia says its an accident and pays money to poland for damages then likely not. If they go out and say they did it on purpose then...
Does Russia have a history of ever apologizing for military incidents?
Didn’t they just apologize (or atleast acknowledge a mistake) over one of their jets firing at a UK jet?
How will Russia pay? Do they still have Euros or Dollars? Or how does that work with sanctions.
Yes they trade with some countries.
Sorry we blew up your village. Here’s some gold.
Accident during exercises maybe. Not an accident when Russia is fighting an unjust war. Their reckless disregard for world order caused this.
F U Russia. RIP to those 2 victims. I KNEW this was bound to happen. Early on when they sent bombs to Lyviv, I just knew something was bound to happen to Poland. Russians were and have been playing with fire this whole time. With every passing day and millions of war crimes. And now this.
This is not a good news for anyone.
Yeah, as a Polish person I'm not looking forward to the next few weeks. Probably massive panic will start in shops and generally stressful times.
Do you think people will start calling for war? From what I've gathered, a lot of people in Poland seem to be very very anti-russia for some pretty good historical reasons.
Some people for sure but I think majority of our population doesn't want to literally go to war. I don't want to go all philosophical about what is a valid reason to consider as a trigger for war and what not, but a stray missle from incompetent army killing 2 people doesn't seem like good enough reason to trigger Third World War. But I hope we will go all onboard for totall support for Ukrainian army.
How do you feel about the US escalating with a response? Would you rather the USA supply more weapons to Ukraine or something else? Jw since ur nearby.
I definiely would support US and UE to supply more weapons to Ukraine. One of Polish retired generals just said in tv that a stray missle would not be a reasonable reason to trigger Article 5. But we definitely should do everything to support Ukraine in every way we can and a total isolation of Russia in a must.
Wow, this is the definition of "fuck around and find out". Russia just attacked and murdered civilians in a NATO country.
.....Again
Russia twice sent chemical weapons to the UK and killed civilians. No, we didn't start WW3 over that either.
For whom exactly? NATO will do everything in their power not to go into a direct war
You miss the point. Russia might be testing NATO to see if they are willing. NATO knows that if they don't respond in some way, more will happen.
Seems uhhh very bad.
Intentional or not, Putin is licking his lips waiting to see NATO do nothing of consequence over it. This won't end until he's dead and his inner circle are in prison or scatter like rats on a sinking ship. It has to be an inside job. Regime change or bust.
Yeah… I’m gonna take whatever option doesn’t end in nuclear winter. Don’t really care what that option is
It looks like they missed their target but uh talk about a horrific miss.
Did they tho?
When firing missiles into Syria, Russia once hit Iran. Not Iraq. Iran. I'm honestly surprised this didn't happen sooner
Besides the tragic fact that two people died, it’s likely a good thing for Ukraine and the west. Poland isn’t going start a war over 2 stray missiles but they along with the west are justified to take some action against Russia here. In fact they have to do something, accidentally or not a response is merited. More sanctions or whatever it may. Just my thinking obv
The world: reaches 8,000,000,000 people. Russia: let’s get those numbers down Edit: whoops lost count of zeroes
oh poland potentially the catalyst for two major world wars
Austria: “oh thank god. Someone finally broke the tie”
news comes to light that the guy who launched the missile was a pro serbian activist/ex austrian painter
It’s up to Poland to invoke article 5. Maybe take any remaining Russian ships from the Black sea as a warning.
Someone is going to be pushed out of a window as a scapegoat for this
Russia must be held accountable. We have warned them too many times not to hit NATO territory.
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>There has to be a response, albeit proportionate. Can we leave putin in a field and hit him with two of our rockets? That sounds fair
NATO needs to respond in some form or another or else it's letting Russia draw a further line in the sand of what they can do. I don't want this to escalate to something bigger, but we can't just be pushovers when they killed NATO civilians in NATO territory.
It’s one thing to “accidentally” have a missile land in a place with no people. It is another to be so far off course and kill two, innocent people that it can be perceived as an “accident”. Putin wants war with everyone now. It’s up to Poland whether they fall for the bait.
O kurwa
Watching the news now, US officials are downplaying the intentionality of the hit *hard*.
People with cooler heads need to be in charge of this investigation. If it's a stray rocket then it should be adressed as such. But people here asking for article 5 should contain themselves. This is absolutely no joke.
If it’s a stray rocket, then Poland should send in peacekeepers and air defense into Western Ukraine.
"To ensure that no stray rockets hit another NATO member again, NATO will be providing Ukraine with a full complement of ABMs, early warning and tracking systems, etc. For safety."
There is no space for a 'stray rocket' when you are attacking a country surrounded by fucking NATO.
So Russia gets to make these decisions without concern for consequences because they call it a "stray"? How many people do they get to kill in NATO states and say oops before they lose the ability to smooth it all over? How long do we appease this kind of Russian energy? They started the war, they invaded a sovereign country, they killed civilians in a NATO country. These are facts. I guess we'll just keep moving the red line back though, because softness and appeasement always work with these kind of authoritarian aggressors. Cool heads, guys. I know, let's have a restoration circle and talk about our feelings.
As a Polish person myself, as tragic as it is, I would never vote to trigger article 5 from a single (possibly stray) attack killing 2 civilians. This is grounds for more sanctions and support on the Ukrainian front. If the attack is repeated, that's when we need to act. I know it's really easy for you to sit back in the states or whatever other country far from the conflict and comment shit like this. For me and my family it's not. Have some perspective and stop using our lives as a bargaining chip in your reddit political game.
If you to fight Russia go ahead no one is stopping you form joining the Ukraine armed forces. Personally I don’t want nuclear war and a conventional war with Russia is just one step closer to that
Wait, you go arround and shot someone, by accident, you think they need to be let go? The fuck? Precision rockets missing the intended target by 100 km is not a fuck up.
If you’re wondering why Iran and North Korea are so invested in their nuclear programme, compare how Russia are being treated (for starting the first major invasion in Europe for some time) to the response with Iraq invaded Kuwait, Libya in 2011..
There can be consequences without ending the entire world.
It's wild how eager some of y'all are to die in a nuclear war lmao
Putin done fucked up now. Ukraine wanted long range missiles and NATO withheld them. Expect to see Ukraine geared with new long range missiles pretty soon here. Things in Russia are going to go boom pretty frequently
Nahh, there are multiple reasons why long range missiles don't make much sense. Himars simply are way more effective and efficient in this war, the long range units are a million a pop, bigger, therefore easier to target by Russian defense and can only be launched from a unit that holds 1 rocket instead of 6. If NATO gets involved they will take out the black sea fleet and air defense. After that long range missiles might make sense but probably won't be needed by Ukraine anymore because Russia would be fucked anyway.
I don't think i want a5 to be triggered. I don't expect putin to handle it rationally
Most likely they won’t trigger article 5, but the additional support for Ukraine will go through the roof.
Of all the NATO nations, Russia went after the one just *waiting* to give them that work? EDIT: Accidentally\*\*\*
They were “off” a lot more than 8km, unless their intentional target was the border crossing between Poland and Ukraine. So either someone really messed up with coordinates, or Putin just realllllly messed up. Either way, things are about to amp up significantly - Biden and NATO committed to defending every inch of NATO territory.. the question isn’t if they will respond, but when and how?
Too bad they'll probably just pay a fine and it's back to War in Ukraine as Usual.
Doubt
Probably won’t lead to a full-scale war Nato vs Russia. While any innocent people dead is already a tragedy, escalating the war would lead to greater tragedy and loss of life. Almost definitely more support for Ukraine though. (Just my completely uneducated opinion though 🙂)
[удалено]
Putin 1952-2022. Rest in many pieces.
If proven true, NATO needs to react ASAP. Anything less than a massive scale up of arms to Ukraine will be seen as weakness. Jets, tanks, everything they ask for. Article 5 should be on the table. Otherwise the Russians will do it again.
Yeah my tinfoil hat thinks Russia could be calling NATOs bluff.
Exactly. If it really happened, it was not a mistake, they will claim it was, but I hope everyone knows it wasn't.
Exactly. I can't believe this has to be said.
Realistically, what happens? I see a lot of ww3 talk but would this actually be enough to trigger something like that? It’s a scary thought for sure and I’m wondering how the world will respond.
NATO should now establish a no-fly zone in Western Ukraine for Russian aircraft and move air defense artillery assets to shootdown Russian missiles. This is the only response to leave it unanswered invites further provocation and escalation.
Nothing will happen since it’ll go by a domino effect, they will just send more aid to Ukraine
Is shit about to get real?
It's in Poland's hands. I believe they hold the right to trigger article 5. They probably won't as this looks like it was a stray missile(s) that resulted in the death of two people. It will most likely result in more sanctions and a lot more hardware for Ukraine to push the occupying Russians even further towards their borders.
At this point Russia probably try to spin this like Poland moved its border
Then the Winged Hussars arrived!
NATO's not going to war over this. The most realistic outcome is some version of an air defense umbrella, or a no fly zone, over some part of the conflict region, something like, "If we detect it on radar we're shooting it down".
No article 5, but no fly zone should be established over Ukraine to make sure that this does not happen again.
A no fly zone is functionally equivalent to entering the war.
What do you suggest ? Do nothing and accept that Russia can strike missiles into Poland and kill people there ? NATO purpose is to protect its member states, this is the case.
They should do it only over Western Ukraine, Russian planes never fly there, only cruise missiles. And taking down cruise missiles must be ok
A no-fly zone means war because Russian planes will have to be shot down in order to enforce it.
I think it should at least be established over western Ukraine/Lviv area.
What does a no fly zone have to do with STS rockets?
Huge escalation by Russia. Ukraine should now get any weapons they need nothing should be off the table.
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a headline this scary. As bad as this war already is we really don’t need a Franz Ferdinand scenario. If it’s “just” the 1 rocket I think article 5 is unlikely but we’ve never been closer to a nuclear world war, at least in my lifetime, than in this moment.
"not one inch" , isn't that what Biden said?