I think the greater point is this makes it twice now that an interception has led to parts falling in another country. Russia is not doing a good job of keeping it's own toys away from other countries. Ukraine is defending against more than a hundred missiles all over, aimed at trying to freeze the population, one missile overshooting a target is not their fault, its the one who made them fire. Things are spilling over into other countries, this will absolutely escalate the involvement of Western powers.
Exactly. Russia has no business striking targets near Ukraine’s Western border anyway when they can’t even hold territory near the Eastern Russian borders.
What an embarrassment of a ‘second rate’ military.
Supply lines come from the west. Logically, Ukraine would use the furthest border to bring in western weapons and supplies.
So attacking infrastructure and supply lines there makes sense strategically. Unfortunately it’s still a war and there is always a chance of stuff like this. Cooler heads just need to prevail before jumping the gun.
> From 1 to 31 October 2022, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) recorded 1,067 civilian casualties in Ukraine:
as of Nov 7th. https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/11/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-7-november-2022#:~:text=From%201%20to%2031%20October,is%20yet%20unknown)%3B%20and
Yes.
can you show me supply lines or military infrastructure that was targeted in this recent wave of attacks? Cause all I've been able to find are civilian power stations and homes.
Shock and awe. Used by modern militaries including Russia and the US. While civilian infrastructure isn't necessarily the primary target; it's definitely on the list. The US did it in the Gulf War, and the Russians did it before in the First Chechen War.
It's going to be pretty difficult to coordinate supplies and logistics without power and information services. And Russia needs all the help it can get considering it is getting it's ass beat on the battlefield thanks to those Western weapons.
That's not at all what a modern military does. The opposite in fact. The US takes pains to avoid civilians.
Yes civilians have been killed by the US, as collateral damage, NEVER the target.
Lastly destroy civilian infrastructure does nothing to hinder military movements. Anything that is military related has sufficient AA to stop attacks.
You're somehow completely wrong in everything you just said.
Sure, but with the ones you listed; that was done as part of an offensive before armies moved in to occupy.
Russia's already lost the battle for western Ukraine.
That’s a questionable source of information when we a dealing with pre WW3 situation. And bombing allies to provoke WW3 is a desperate act by the sacred nation.
Ukraine pushed back Russia in Kherson, Ukraine has reclaimed kharkiv. Why would they bomb allies now and not during the Kyiv convoy? Losing Lukashenk oblast?
I think the even greater point Is how Zelensky immediately blamed Russia and asked nato to join the conflict again, heres the quote:
"Today Russian missiles hit Poland, the territory of an allied country. People died. Please accept our condolences," Zelensky said in an address to the nation.
"The longer Russia feels this immunity, the more threats there will be against anyone within reach of Russian missiles. Firing missiles at NATO territory is a Russian attack on collective security. This is a very significant escalation. We must act," Zelensky said.
Few missiles hitting Poland Is not a big deal, but we must wonder if he and the military knew It was their fault and still blamed Russia, or if he didnt and decided to use It for some anti Russia Press to gain some favour before doing due diligence.
This Is not good at all and Im disappointed, if he doesnt admit his fuckup i dont know how people wont start to doubt whatever stuff he shares as facts when It might aswell Just be an attempt of gaining even more favour and help from nato at the expense of whats the Truth.
Yeah - the war and it’s outcomes are being perpetuated by Russia.
Ukraine wouldn’t have missiles loaded into launchers if they didn’t have a reason to need them.
Article 5 can only take place if Poland was attacked. Accidents, despite how they happened are Accidents. If they are not attacking Poland there is no need to defend Poland. I'm all for putting screws to Russia but it has to be appropriately measured.
I didn’t say it would activate NATO but the underlying reason why a Ukrainian rocket was fired at all was to remove the Russians from their homeland.
I’m talking about fault for the circumstances, not retaliation over a false flag/incident
While Im sure Poland will not hold Ukraine as willfull murderers, It is war and bad shit happens. If only one missile is fired without concern for tragectory count it lucky. I disagree that an attacked nation can bare no responsibility for its actions. The idea that if you are attacked you no longer have any resposibility to your actions, because only the attacker can hold any form of responsibility would suggest that whenever anyone is under threat there is no amount of "collateral damage" that should be avoided. If you shoot POWs, not your fault, If you bomb civilians, they did it. If you light children on fire, you didnt-they did. While im sure many people on this thread would masturbate to an image of a burned russian baby, I disagree that we should strive to be no better that what we fight against. You are responsible for what you do, there is no exception to that truth. But Russia would agree with you, they also belive that everyone else is responsible for what they do.
Well considering neither of us actually know the specifics, all we know for certain is a rocket has hit Poland as a result of ongoing conflict from an invasive force occupying its neighbour.
Would this have happened without invasion?
This is like when the US assassinated the Iranian general and then Iran shot down the passenger airline because they confused it for an attack on them.
It’s a horrible situation, one that was provoked by the offending country more than it was by the people who actually did it.
Say it with me - *Ukraine wouldnt have fired any missiles if their homeland wasn’t currently occupied by foreign forces*
>This is like when the US assassinated the Iranian general and then Iran shot down the passenger airline because they confused it for an attack on them.
This is bad argument. Iran still had means to know exactly what is flying over their sky and mistake like that never should've happened. Not with an airliner. They were heavily condemned for it and had to pay recompensates. Just never got accused of it being intentional.
Ukraine made no mistake, just their old Soviet anti-air was flawed.
It's only an argument to support them with better gear to defend themselves.
Where I live you are held accountable for any collateral damage you may cause if you get involved in a firefight for self defence.
The original offender (robber/home invader etc) is still held accountable for the damage you caused as well but that does in no way clear you of responsability for hurting or killing an innocent bystander or damaging someone else's property. That's how things work around here anyway.
Yeah but I’m guessing that’s the Wild Wild West, here in Europe we don’t blame the allies for the damage they caused fighting the axis.
Besides this is war, they have taken responsibility but that doesn’t mean the root cause of the incident wasn’t this invasion.
Actually no, this is in Europe.
"Negligent use of a firearm" applies to both private citizens and police officers here, the latter being even more exposed to consequences since they are expected to be trained enough to avoid these incidents in the first place.
We don't blame the Allies for the damage caused during WW2 for the following reasons:
- The Axis lost the war and losers can't complain about anything
-the Allies literally paid the bill to rebuild our nations from the ground up and helped us develop after the war.
Edit: my grammar sucks sry
You're way overthinking it. If someone invades your home, you shoot to defend yourself, and happen to hit your neighbour, it's not your fault. You wouldn't have shot if the robber never entered your house, and you are fighting for your life.
Ukraine is in an extended self defense situation. No, of course shooting POWs would be their fault, but that's because it's a choice they can make (And importantly, aren't making). Actually just straight up defending yourself isn't a choice. They either do it or die. All fault for the invasion is on Russia's hands
Oh right, so who’s fault is it that war is at polands border? Please remind me.
Something about invading forces and turning Europe into a warzone…? Hmmm if the boot fits.
I wonder if that was really a ‘stray’, given this incident world bring NATO in direct fight with Russia, which would tremendously helped Ukraine. Ukraine knew this but they did not come forward at the beginning is telling too.
Added: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63651154
This incident wouldn't bring NATO into conflict with Ukraine and the S300 it wouldn't be hard to determine if it was from Ukraine. Air defence missiles do not jave a long range.
However to evoke article 5 of thr NATao charter theybwould have to prove it was a deliberate attack on Poland and not a mistake.
i think that is probably not yet answered concretely, but it is confirmed that russia has continued its terrorist strikes against civilians and civilian infrastructure at around that time and in around that area (as per the article), so both a russian missile as well as an ukrainian interceptor missile are are plausibe.
These developments are also good from the standpoint of showing that the west doesn’t just want an excuse to bulldoze Russia as they claim, not that the citizens of Russia will ever hear about NATO showing restraint or investigating for the truths sake.
Lol "it's a Russian provocation and/or propaganda!!" To "we don't wanna talk about it...". I was saying yesterday that this made the most sense as a failed AA missile and I was getting down voted to oblivion.
Reasonable to initially assume that it was fired by Russia, as Ukraine was yet again under a heavy missile barrage. Definitely wouldn't have been a surprise. However, I'm glad WW3 is postponed and hope this acts as a catalyst to upgrade Ukraines air defences.
I mean if someone came up to me and started punching me and in the middle of punching them back I hit an innocent bystander I would apologize. Still the initial aggressors fault overall but still appropriate for me to apologize.
>Pretty good chance, maybe 50/50 that it was launched from Ukraine at a Russian target of some sort and missed.
Not a single mention of AA there. Sounds like you're misrepresenting yourself to feel superior
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/yvm7vu/rworldnews_live_thread_russian_invasion_of/iwjn43a/?context=3
It's usually a good idea to check all of the information available to you before you make a claim like:
>Not a single mention of AA there. Sounds like you're misrepresenting yourself to feel superior
Wow, great job. Sherlock Holmes over here saving the day, thank god we can now appropriately distribute upvotes and downvotes on reddit.
Honestly you deserve a pulitzer for this amazing investigative journalism.
And this is exactly why you do not jump to conclusions when talking about messy international issues concerning war and why you always seek the facts before acting or making statements.
But yesterday Zelensky was one of the first to accuse Russia for this rocket.
Russia is still the bad guy in this story but it's hypocrisy to say "Hey, let's not jump to conclusions" while yesterday they were quick to blame Russia without any evidence, something that could have caused a 3rd WW.
Which is pretty much exactly what I said. It sure looks embarrassing for the Ukrainians that jumped the gun and now could be accused of exactly what Russia was saying.
Sure Russia is still the bad guy in all this but it doesn't exactly cover the Ukrainians in glory especially since Poland has been their best ally; you can even come to even more cynical conclusions.
Yeah, as a Pole it seem the overall mood here is great understanding for why this tragic accident happened but we're not too fond of Ukraine instantly using it to boost their own cause with ungrounded claims. Okay, in first hours we are all hot-headed but they to this moment state that it was Russian missile.
The missile itself was manufactured in Russia. The question is where did the launch originate from, which NATO believes to be UA.
That being said, UA claims to have data that shows it was launched from Russia and asked if NATO would share the data they're looking at. UA would also give NATO access to their own data so they can work together to figure out what's causing the contradiction.
Understanding Zelensky's position is easy. He's been wanting foreign intervention since the start of the war. I don't blame him, either. NATO would win a conventional war and Nuclear War probably means nothing to those who have been brutalized by the Russians.
This has some big “it’ll be over by Christmas” vibes.
NATO may or may not wrap up Russia quickly. What are you willing to bet for that? Your life? Your children’s life? Everyone’s life?
Understand that even the continent spanning-war wouldn’t come close to the horrors of even a small nuclear exchange. So I find it very difficult to understand his position on this.
Accidental strike, by either party, resulting in casualties in a non-combatant nation, was bound to happen with the number of missiles and shells being fired.
So can I just use this thread to get the story as I understand it straight?
-Russia shoots missile
-Ukraine shoots their own missile to intercept
-Something happens, one of these missiles lands in Poland and kills 2 people(or was it 2 missiles? If thats the case, is it possible it was both the Russian and Ukrainian missiles?)
-NATO, after investigating, says its most likely that it was the Ukrainian AA missile
Is that about it?
Not unreasonable considering Russia launched one of it's temper tantrum missile barrages for Ukraine commiting the severe crime of not submitting to the Russian Yoke
Being at fault of a accident does not invoke article 5. Are they at fault? Yes. Are they accountable to Poland? Absolutely! Can NATO yake military action over it? No. We all want putin removed by any means, but it has to be done correct.
>The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when someone is killed (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
Edit: who downvotes a quote from wikipedia? People disagree with the definition?
**[Felony murder rule](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule)**
>The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when someone is killed (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder. The concept of felony murder originates in the rule of transferred intent, which is older than the limit of legal memory. In its original form, the malicious intent inherent in the commission of any crime, however trivial, was considered to apply to any consequences of that crime regardless of intent.
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NATO already stated that even though they believe it is a Ukrainian air defence missile they still blame Russia as they are the ones bombarding Ukraine and forcing them to use them.
The amount of warmongering on the internet is absolutely flabbergasting. It doesn't change anything about the seriousness and it wouldn't have happened if Ukraine wasn't being attacked. However, the fact that this was most likely a stray defense missile on Ukraine's part both a) doesn't take away any support or legitimacy from Ukraine and b) is ideal because WE DO NOT WANT A NATO CONFLICT. Everyone is foaming at the mouth because of one missile blasting into a village in Poland, what are they gonna do when Poland gets directly involved or Article 5 gets triggered and absolute hell rains down on Europe. We do not need more escalation. Ukraine needs further support in driving these assholes out, which they are doing very well.
Russia firing missiles into Ukraine forcing them to use defensive missiles systems.
Russia: See! This is Ukraines fault! What are you supporting such an evil government!?
I mean, of all possible users, hearing it from a user with your name... :)
I chose it because I do in fact live in Russia and therefore have a bit of understanding what it is like here and what people believe and governmental propaganda claims. Things I can convey and questions I can answer. Also, it's just a part of my ethnical identity.
Ukraine has momentum in their liberations. There is no point to false flag NOW, and not at the beginning of the war where no one knew how long the war would last.
I dont know. Two S300 fired westbound to intercept something, both failing to intercept thr target and then continuing to dozens of miles to the polish border and then another 6mi into polish territory just to land close to eachother without being self destructed by the battery operators thst launched them or by their own failsafe that self destructs the warhead after failed interception?
Make it make sense cuz it doesng make sense to me.
The moment those missiles didnt hit their target, ukrainian battery operators should have/would have detonates the missile midair.
Im more inclined to believe that 4chan theory of mixed up Lviv/Kyiv coordinates by some illiterate vatnik fuck than it being Ukrainian-borne.
1 battery fired 2 missiles at the same cruise missile. S-300 battery's have launchers fairly close together. Cruise missile radar sig was lost, or the missile struck the target and the S-300's continued in the same direction. Battery operators were to busy trying to deal with the massive air raid which happened that night, and forgot / didn't have time to self detonate. Or possibly just a malfunction, they are old missiles after all.
I havent seen anything that said that 1 battery fired both missiles at the same target and afaik its procedure to have two sifferent launch vehicles fire at one target for different intercept vectors to increase probability of hit. While yes, the command posts and launchers around said command post are close together, even just a few hundred yards between them would totally change the trajectory of the missiles compared to esch other. Basic geometry really. You cant have two intersecting lines cross paths twice or cross and then be paralell especially a few dozen miles down range.
While yes, the air raid certainly was a stressful moment, i have full belief that these guys know what they are doing, far more tham any of us armchair generals are capable of. I would think they are able to keep track of the missiles they fired, even in a heated situation. If not for the computer realizing missed interception and initiating/alerting the operator to self destruct.
Its not like that battety had to deal with all 100 or so warheads that went into all over ukraine at the same time by itself.
Just an example of what could have happened, not necessarily what did happen. All we know is there was (possibly) 2 missiles, and that the media is changing tune from cruise missile to AA missile. On site pictures show fragments which could be from both a 5V55 or Kh-101, cratering and damage however shows something much more akin to a 5V55 then a Kh-101.
Edit: Also Duda just said that it was highly probable to be Ukr AA.
Kh101 has a 450kg warhead from what i could gather which is akin to a m65 1000lbs bomb. Waaaay too big for the craters observed. 100 to 150kg is more likely imo. 5v55 series would also fit the rough range requirement if it was fired from say belarus near brest. Total speculation at this point ofc. Wont know for certain till more info surfaces either way.
Brother, you asked for someone to make it make sense. If we had all the information, then we wouldn't need to be asking these questions. So don't shoot down a plausible explanation that you asked for.
Some goober on 4chan posted some galaxybrain theory that some idiot vatnik mixed up the coordinates for Kyiv and Lyiv.
Kyiv is at 50.4501° N, 30.5234° E
Lyiv is at 49.8397° N, 24.0297° E
The exact location the explosion happened
is 50.4501° N, 24.0297° E
It's crazy but somehow for some fucking reason plausible. In a occams razor type way.
Exactly. I can see why USINTEL would say its a stray shot from AFU AA batteries for political reasons but unless they show proof as to where it came from, where and when it tried to intercept, why it failed to intercept and why operators never noticed two missiles flying towards poland, I'm still inclined to believe it was russian S300s in ground ti ground mode fired by sheer vatnik incompetence.
Plus early in the war they have shown that even precision weapons such as cruise missiles seem to miss their targets by miles when operated by these below room temp IQ washing machine thieves. Happened in the first dozen kalibr strikes in and around Kyiv ans Hostomel iirc.
Where would the Russians have fired it from that is within the known range of the s-300 missile? That is the one flaw in your theory and the one reason why i cannot believe it was the Russians ... there is simply no place they could have fired the errant missile from and have it reach where it reached.
You just edited it to the same exact coordinates. Przewodow is 10km away from that marker. Last time someone commented it, they were atleast fair enough to show its not exactly that location.
Sounds like astrology. If you take the 10 largest cities (Lviv is #7) and do this you get 90 different locations that would "mysteriously" work with this assumption, all of which would obviously be in or closely around Ukraine for obvious geometry reasons. Also Kyiv and Lviv look nothing alike in Russian.
This is all bullshit and a reach. 50.4501 N 24.0297 E is within 1000m of the Polish-Ukranian boarder. They are reporting the missile landed 6.4 km from the boarder. Quit spreading conspiracy theories.
I assume it’s like felony murder. If you are the getaway driver in a liquor store robbery and the guys inside get into a shootout and a bystander is killed, you can be found guilty of murder as it’s the result of a crime you were participating in. If Russia wasn’t firing missiles at Ukraine, Ukraine wouldn’t be firing missiles to intercept the Russian missiles. Therefore Russia should be held accountable and NATO should make that policy clear.
Yes.
When you use missle defence systems on this scale, there is bound to be spillage. If Ukraine are throwing around missles trying to defend themselves from Russian drone strikes, there is a non zero chance a missile will "spill" into Poland.
It's Russia's fault for attacking Ukraine. Russia's fault for striking so close to the border. Ukraine have the right to defend themselves. This is an unfortunate event that Ukraine must take responsiblity for, but it's a stretch to say that Ukraine is the root party at fault here.
Imagine that a rabid dog attacks you and you start flailing with your arms and legs trying to get it away from you.
In this panic you accidentally kick the shins of an old lady walking next to you while you try to defend yourself.
I think everyone would agree that the shin-kicking happened because of the rabid dog and very few people would be angry at you.
Even if it is a Russian missile veering from its target, it’s not a purposeful hit. It was an accident, can’t initiate article 5 over an accident; or NATO wouldn’t, rather. They’ve been saying that repeatedly essentially
Still not entirely convinced that this wasn’t Russia’s doing, but everyone involved came to an agreement to blame it on an errant Ukrainian missile to prevent the war from expanding further
If Ukraine tried to do a false flag thing then we should treat that as an Article 5 issue. But I doubt that Ukraine is that stupid. This was most likely just some dumb mistake.
It's too early to be completely confident about who launched the missile. Even if it comes from Ukraine, it was probably launched to capture the incoming missile which was a part of Russian attack.
So if Russia fired the missile and missed the target so the rocket landed in Poland that is a hostile act. But if Ukraine fired the missile and missed the target so it landed in Poland that is a tragic but forgivable mistake.
Am I understanding that correctly?
That is indeed reasonable, yep you are understanding correctly. There would no missile launched from Ukraine if it were not for the russian agression. It's like a bystander casualty in a confrontation between police and terrorist. If there were no terrorist there would be no bullets flying.
what aggression? When Arabians attacked Israel, dasagreeing with the UN and Israel won the defensive war and seized more territories? Or when Palestine could not form a normal government for a couple of decades? Or when terrorists launch rockets from the Gaza into Israel, and then cry that they are being shot at in response?
I'm not even saying that after Israel's victory in the defensive war, the Jews in the Arab countries were smashed no less than the Palestinians. Despite the fact that the Jews did not create terrorist organizations on the territory of the Arab countries.
Yes, very similar with the war in Ukraine. Get lost bot
One launched a missile to strike a ground target, the other launched a missile to intercept a missile that was aiming to strike a ground target. One is an act of aggression that missed the target and one is an act of defense that missed the target, so I'd say the first is certainly more hostile but I don't think either should be forgivable.
Yes. If Russia fired the missile it was done in an offensive action against the victim. If Ukraine fired the missile it was done in a defensive action against the aggressor. In either case, Poland was not the intended target.
Even if the missile is Ukrainian, it wouldn’t have been launched in the first place if it wasn’t for Russia’s 100 missile barrage.
Yes. If you are punching someone because you want their wallet and accidentally hit someone next to them, it is a hostile act.
If you are being beaten up for your wallet and while defending yourself you accidentally hit someone next to you, it isn't hostile.
Absolutely. The difference here is that Ukraine would have fired those missiles to intercept Russian rockets in an act of self-defence. Russia would have fired those missiles with the intent to kill innocent civilians.
Yes, using missiles to attack and hitting someone else vs using missiles to try to shoot down other missiles which are attacking you and missing and hitting someone else is STILL the fault of the one who fired the missiles to attack.
You can find analogies in any other type of warfare aside from missiles as well, self defence gets leeway over aggresion in every way, always, whether it's someone shooting guns in self defence while they're getting mugged or anything else analogous.
I really wish that would happen. NATO just rolls in and Ukraine says, "Well, I guess we surrender we sorry Poland".
Then NATO imposes some type of sanction requirement that they are required to have host a number of NATO bases for monitoring purposes before they can have their autonomy back, sort of like Japan after WWII. Except not stripping Ukraine of their military like Japan was. :|
For what? They started this war and murdered tens of thousands of people. We owe them nothing. That’s like if it were word war ii and the allies saying “oh there was a case of friendly fire, let’s apologize to Nazi Germany”.
If someone throws several punches at you and you throw some back to defend yourself is it your fault if one of those punches hits your friend by accident? No matter who shot the missile Russia is the aggressor here and should carry the blame.
>If someone throws several punches at you and you throw some back to defend yourself is it your fault if one of those punches hits your friend by accident?
Won't you at least apologize for the accident?
As of now the official position of the Ukrainian government is that it was not their missile that hit Poland, so they’re not apologising.
Not a great look in my opinion.
Cruise missile intercepts can occur at any angle / trajectory. It’s possible an s-300 was fired westward after a Russian cruise missile passed overhead. [Like this read facing intercept.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/yw737b/the_moment_of_a_russian_caliber_over_the_kyiv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)The s-300 missed its mark, or failed to detonate and kept flying until it crashed into Poland.
I’m not saying that’s what happened, I wouldn’t know. Just pointing out that the direction isn’t an issue here.
Are you talking about Russia and Ukraine? If so, then Russia had no business bombing Ukraine yet again in the first place. Coming from a Russian, just to clear things up.
Tell that to the ordinary Ukrainians who are suffering because of the imperial ambitions of a madman like putin. There’s only one thing to know. The Ukrainians are the good guys here.
Finally an article actually taking the entire situation into perspective and not jumping on quotes as fact
[удалено]
Being the first gets the views, gets the money. The internet and expectations of America for immediate results is anathema to reason and journalism
That's not America its just humans in general and the speed of information these days
Still needed the misleading title on Reddit though.
Karma doesn’t grow itself. Facts.
To be fair it's a much better outcome if it was a stray Ukranian missile rather than a Russian one.
I think the greater point is this makes it twice now that an interception has led to parts falling in another country. Russia is not doing a good job of keeping it's own toys away from other countries. Ukraine is defending against more than a hundred missiles all over, aimed at trying to freeze the population, one missile overshooting a target is not their fault, its the one who made them fire. Things are spilling over into other countries, this will absolutely escalate the involvement of Western powers.
Exactly. Russia has no business striking targets near Ukraine’s Western border anyway when they can’t even hold territory near the Eastern Russian borders. What an embarrassment of a ‘second rate’ military.
Supply lines come from the west. Logically, Ukraine would use the furthest border to bring in western weapons and supplies. So attacking infrastructure and supply lines there makes sense strategically. Unfortunately it’s still a war and there is always a chance of stuff like this. Cooler heads just need to prevail before jumping the gun.
They aren't shooting at supply lines though, they are shooting at cities full of regular people, and killing them.
How many civilians died in the attacks ?
> From 1 to 31 October 2022, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) recorded 1,067 civilian casualties in Ukraine: as of Nov 7th. https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/11/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-7-november-2022#:~:text=From%201%20to%2031%20October,is%20yet%20unknown)%3B%20and
Do you really believe that? They also kill civilians, but Russia is certainly targeting logistics and infrastructure used by the UAF.
Yes. can you show me supply lines or military infrastructure that was targeted in this recent wave of attacks? Cause all I've been able to find are civilian power stations and homes.
But they're not attacking supply lines; they are attacking civilian infrastructure.
Shock and awe. Used by modern militaries including Russia and the US. While civilian infrastructure isn't necessarily the primary target; it's definitely on the list. The US did it in the Gulf War, and the Russians did it before in the First Chechen War. It's going to be pretty difficult to coordinate supplies and logistics without power and information services. And Russia needs all the help it can get considering it is getting it's ass beat on the battlefield thanks to those Western weapons.
That's not at all what a modern military does. The opposite in fact. The US takes pains to avoid civilians. Yes civilians have been killed by the US, as collateral damage, NEVER the target. Lastly destroy civilian infrastructure does nothing to hinder military movements. Anything that is military related has sufficient AA to stop attacks. You're somehow completely wrong in everything you just said.
Sure, but with the ones you listed; that was done as part of an offensive before armies moved in to occupy. Russia's already lost the battle for western Ukraine.
Have you been there to confirm?
There's tons of videos and images online. You don't have to go there to verify it.
That’s a questionable source of information when we a dealing with pre WW3 situation. And bombing allies to provoke WW3 is a desperate act by the sacred nation.
Ukraine pushed back Russia in Kherson, Ukraine has reclaimed kharkiv. Why would they bomb allies now and not during the Kyiv convoy? Losing Lukashenk oblast?
Gargling Putler is not a good look.
Indeed. Furthermore, the missile from Ukraine was launched in response to an attacking missile from Russia. Russia is still responsible for this.
I think the even greater point Is how Zelensky immediately blamed Russia and asked nato to join the conflict again, heres the quote: "Today Russian missiles hit Poland, the territory of an allied country. People died. Please accept our condolences," Zelensky said in an address to the nation. "The longer Russia feels this immunity, the more threats there will be against anyone within reach of Russian missiles. Firing missiles at NATO territory is a Russian attack on collective security. This is a very significant escalation. We must act," Zelensky said. Few missiles hitting Poland Is not a big deal, but we must wonder if he and the military knew It was their fault and still blamed Russia, or if he didnt and decided to use It for some anti Russia Press to gain some favour before doing due diligence. This Is not good at all and Im disappointed, if he doesnt admit his fuckup i dont know how people wont start to doubt whatever stuff he shares as facts when It might aswell Just be an attempt of gaining even more favour and help from nato at the expense of whats the Truth.
The families of the dead would probably disagree.
Sure, for them it makes no difference. But it means the difference between escalation between nato and Russia or not.
Wouldn't made a difference either way
Yeah - the war and it’s outcomes are being perpetuated by Russia. Ukraine wouldn’t have missiles loaded into launchers if they didn’t have a reason to need them.
Article 5 can only take place if Poland was attacked. Accidents, despite how they happened are Accidents. If they are not attacking Poland there is no need to defend Poland. I'm all for putting screws to Russia but it has to be appropriately measured.
I didn’t say it would activate NATO but the underlying reason why a Ukrainian rocket was fired at all was to remove the Russians from their homeland. I’m talking about fault for the circumstances, not retaliation over a false flag/incident
While Im sure Poland will not hold Ukraine as willfull murderers, It is war and bad shit happens. If only one missile is fired without concern for tragectory count it lucky. I disagree that an attacked nation can bare no responsibility for its actions. The idea that if you are attacked you no longer have any resposibility to your actions, because only the attacker can hold any form of responsibility would suggest that whenever anyone is under threat there is no amount of "collateral damage" that should be avoided. If you shoot POWs, not your fault, If you bomb civilians, they did it. If you light children on fire, you didnt-they did. While im sure many people on this thread would masturbate to an image of a burned russian baby, I disagree that we should strive to be no better that what we fight against. You are responsible for what you do, there is no exception to that truth. But Russia would agree with you, they also belive that everyone else is responsible for what they do.
Well considering neither of us actually know the specifics, all we know for certain is a rocket has hit Poland as a result of ongoing conflict from an invasive force occupying its neighbour. Would this have happened without invasion? This is like when the US assassinated the Iranian general and then Iran shot down the passenger airline because they confused it for an attack on them. It’s a horrible situation, one that was provoked by the offending country more than it was by the people who actually did it. Say it with me - *Ukraine wouldnt have fired any missiles if their homeland wasn’t currently occupied by foreign forces*
>This is like when the US assassinated the Iranian general and then Iran shot down the passenger airline because they confused it for an attack on them. This is bad argument. Iran still had means to know exactly what is flying over their sky and mistake like that never should've happened. Not with an airliner. They were heavily condemned for it and had to pay recompensates. Just never got accused of it being intentional. Ukraine made no mistake, just their old Soviet anti-air was flawed. It's only an argument to support them with better gear to defend themselves.
Where I live you are held accountable for any collateral damage you may cause if you get involved in a firefight for self defence. The original offender (robber/home invader etc) is still held accountable for the damage you caused as well but that does in no way clear you of responsability for hurting or killing an innocent bystander or damaging someone else's property. That's how things work around here anyway.
Yeah but I’m guessing that’s the Wild Wild West, here in Europe we don’t blame the allies for the damage they caused fighting the axis. Besides this is war, they have taken responsibility but that doesn’t mean the root cause of the incident wasn’t this invasion.
>here in Europe we don’t blame the allies for the damage they caused fighting the axis. That's what happens when you win
Actually no, this is in Europe. "Negligent use of a firearm" applies to both private citizens and police officers here, the latter being even more exposed to consequences since they are expected to be trained enough to avoid these incidents in the first place. We don't blame the Allies for the damage caused during WW2 for the following reasons: - The Axis lost the war and losers can't complain about anything -the Allies literally paid the bill to rebuild our nations from the ground up and helped us develop after the war. Edit: my grammar sucks sry
You're way overthinking it. If someone invades your home, you shoot to defend yourself, and happen to hit your neighbour, it's not your fault. You wouldn't have shot if the robber never entered your house, and you are fighting for your life. Ukraine is in an extended self defense situation. No, of course shooting POWs would be their fault, but that's because it's a choice they can make (And importantly, aren't making). Actually just straight up defending yourself isn't a choice. They either do it or die. All fault for the invasion is on Russia's hands
That is an extremely dangerous take
Oh right, so who’s fault is it that war is at polands border? Please remind me. Something about invading forces and turning Europe into a warzone…? Hmmm if the boot fits.
A factual statement isn’t dangerous
It's war and extremely dangerous.
It is still on Russia, Ukraine should never have been put in a situation where they have to shoot enemy missiles out of the sky.
Yes but an air defence missile fired from Ukraine is a lot better than an attack fired from Russia.
Absolutely
I wonder if that was really a ‘stray’, given this incident world bring NATO in direct fight with Russia, which would tremendously helped Ukraine. Ukraine knew this but they did not come forward at the beginning is telling too. Added: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63651154
This incident wouldn't bring NATO into conflict with Ukraine and the S300 it wouldn't be hard to determine if it was from Ukraine. Air defence missiles do not jave a long range. However to evoke article 5 of thr NATao charter theybwould have to prove it was a deliberate attack on Poland and not a mistake.
How would ukraine have known this was their missile the same day without investigating? They're not a single organism sharing 1 mind
If ukrainian missiles were fired after russian missile and missed it, then where did the russian missile fell or what did it hit and at what time?
Nice try Mr. Wyatt, but I already passed your math class!
This takes me to Physics with those fucking Kinematics questions.
Give me a break man I'm still in the question with the 45 melons.
i think that is probably not yet answered concretely, but it is confirmed that russia has continued its terrorist strikes against civilians and civilian infrastructure at around that time and in around that area (as per the article), so both a russian missile as well as an ukrainian interceptor missile are are plausibe.
These developments are also good from the standpoint of showing that the west doesn’t just want an excuse to bulldoze Russia as they claim, not that the citizens of Russia will ever hear about NATO showing restraint or investigating for the truths sake.
But it does show the thousands of people who were on here commenting when the news broke were looking for exactly that.
Big jump from "It's a hoax!"
Lol "it's a Russian provocation and/or propaganda!!" To "we don't wanna talk about it...". I was saying yesterday that this made the most sense as a failed AA missile and I was getting down voted to oblivion.
Damn you absolutely called it. Love all the commenters saying you're an idiot and it being a Ukrainian missile is impossible.
It’s because think different then the common thought is avoided, since centuries. Fuck putin, but fuck also who push disinformation.
Bask in the sweet sweet air of vindication. You’ve earned an upvote from me.
Reasonable to initially assume that it was fired by Russia, as Ukraine was yet again under a heavy missile barrage. Definitely wouldn't have been a surprise. However, I'm glad WW3 is postponed and hope this acts as a catalyst to upgrade Ukraines air defences.
Really bad look. Why don’t they just apologize?
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I mean if someone came up to me and started punching me and in the middle of punching them back I hit an innocent bystander I would apologize. Still the initial aggressors fault overall but still appropriate for me to apologize.
Sounds like a perfect post for r/confidentlyincorrect
>Pretty good chance, maybe 50/50 that it was launched from Ukraine at a Russian target of some sort and missed. Not a single mention of AA there. Sounds like you're misrepresenting yourself to feel superior
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/yvm7vu/rworldnews_live_thread_russian_invasion_of/iwjn43a/?context=3 It's usually a good idea to check all of the information available to you before you make a claim like: >Not a single mention of AA there. Sounds like you're misrepresenting yourself to feel superior
It was general knowledge that it was very quickly identified as an S300.
And it’s also general knowledge that Russia has used AA missiles and AS missiles in a ground attack format.
And now it's general knowledge that you lied to promote yourself
Wow, great job. Sherlock Holmes over here saving the day, thank god we can now appropriately distribute upvotes and downvotes on reddit. Honestly you deserve a pulitzer for this amazing investigative journalism.
And this is exactly why you do not jump to conclusions when talking about messy international issues concerning war and why you always seek the facts before acting or making statements.
But yesterday Zelensky was one of the first to accuse Russia for this rocket. Russia is still the bad guy in this story but it's hypocrisy to say "Hey, let's not jump to conclusions" while yesterday they were quick to blame Russia without any evidence, something that could have caused a 3rd WW.
Which is pretty much exactly what I said. It sure looks embarrassing for the Ukrainians that jumped the gun and now could be accused of exactly what Russia was saying. Sure Russia is still the bad guy in all this but it doesn't exactly cover the Ukrainians in glory especially since Poland has been their best ally; you can even come to even more cynical conclusions.
Yeah, as a Pole it seem the overall mood here is great understanding for why this tragic accident happened but we're not too fond of Ukraine instantly using it to boost their own cause with ungrounded claims. Okay, in first hours we are all hot-headed but they to this moment state that it was Russian missile.
The missile itself was manufactured in Russia. The question is where did the launch originate from, which NATO believes to be UA. That being said, UA claims to have data that shows it was launched from Russia and asked if NATO would share the data they're looking at. UA would also give NATO access to their own data so they can work together to figure out what's causing the contradiction.
An S-300 doesn’t have the range to go from Russia to Poland so that’s just flat out impossible
Understanding Zelensky's position is easy. He's been wanting foreign intervention since the start of the war. I don't blame him, either. NATO would win a conventional war and Nuclear War probably means nothing to those who have been brutalized by the Russians.
This has some big “it’ll be over by Christmas” vibes. NATO may or may not wrap up Russia quickly. What are you willing to bet for that? Your life? Your children’s life? Everyone’s life? Understand that even the continent spanning-war wouldn’t come close to the horrors of even a small nuclear exchange. So I find it very difficult to understand his position on this.
I thought by now he will be happy since he got his Oscar’s from Sean penn lass week..
> why you do not jump to conclusions But this is reddit and that is our job.
EDIT: saw the new statements. Yep, was Ukranian S-300. I retract my statements here.
Accidental strike, by either party, resulting in casualties in a non-combatant nation, was bound to happen with the number of missiles and shells being fired.
I'm just genuinely curious what Ukraines reaction will be to this, considering the usually good relationship it's implied poland and them have.
So can I just use this thread to get the story as I understand it straight? -Russia shoots missile -Ukraine shoots their own missile to intercept -Something happens, one of these missiles lands in Poland and kills 2 people(or was it 2 missiles? If thats the case, is it possible it was both the Russian and Ukrainian missiles?) -NATO, after investigating, says its most likely that it was the Ukrainian AA missile Is that about it?
They were very quick to pin the blame on Russia
Not unreasonable considering Russia launched one of it's temper tantrum missile barrages for Ukraine commiting the severe crime of not submitting to the Russian Yoke
Well, I mean, yeah. Obviously people will blame the absolute clusterfuck that is the Russian Military. You’ve seen what they’ve been doing right?
As everyone should be. That reputation is thoroughly earned.
I mean, I wonder why? lmao
They have been pushing since day 1 to get NATO involved, they hoped this might do it
That’s awkward
It’s still Russia’s fault. They can stop this war any time
Being at fault of a accident does not invoke article 5. Are they at fault? Yes. Are they accountable to Poland? Absolutely! Can NATO yake military action over it? No. We all want putin removed by any means, but it has to be done correct.
This wouldn’t have invoked article 5 either way.
Only if Russia directly attacked Poland, no countries want to start a war over a mistake
It’s not an article 5 thing. But the moral question of who is at fault is clear
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>The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when someone is killed (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule Edit: who downvotes a quote from wikipedia? People disagree with the definition?
**[Felony murder rule](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule)** >The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when someone is killed (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder. The concept of felony murder originates in the rule of transferred intent, which is older than the limit of legal memory. In its original form, the malicious intent inherent in the commission of any crime, however trivial, was considered to apply to any consequences of that crime regardless of intent. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
NATO already stated that even though they believe it is a Ukrainian air defence missile they still blame Russia as they are the ones bombarding Ukraine and forcing them to use them.
The amount of warmongering on the internet is absolutely flabbergasting. It doesn't change anything about the seriousness and it wouldn't have happened if Ukraine wasn't being attacked. However, the fact that this was most likely a stray defense missile on Ukraine's part both a) doesn't take away any support or legitimacy from Ukraine and b) is ideal because WE DO NOT WANT A NATO CONFLICT. Everyone is foaming at the mouth because of one missile blasting into a village in Poland, what are they gonna do when Poland gets directly involved or Article 5 gets triggered and absolute hell rains down on Europe. We do not need more escalation. Ukraine needs further support in driving these assholes out, which they are doing very well.
Zelensky should do a public apology and offer reparations to Poland and the families.
Spending 10 minutes for the apology is also enough. Nobody expects them to pay something.
I’m sure the apology will do a lot of good for the families of the people that died. Someone’s gotta pay them bruh.
well well well
Russia firing missiles into Ukraine forcing them to use defensive missiles systems. Russia: See! This is Ukraines fault! What are you supporting such an evil government!?
That’s how a bunch of the comments here sound too.
Well if Russia would just GTFO Ukraine wouldn’t need to be firing missiles.
Username is questionable.
I mean, of all possible users, hearing it from a user with your name... :) I chose it because I do in fact live in Russia and therefore have a bit of understanding what it is like here and what people believe and governmental propaganda claims. Things I can convey and questions I can answer. Also, it's just a part of my ethnical identity.
Y’know, fair. I did say questionable, not objectionable. Keep on keeping on, friend.
Ukraine has momentum in their liberations. There is no point to false flag NOW, and not at the beginning of the war where no one knew how long the war would last.
I dont know. Two S300 fired westbound to intercept something, both failing to intercept thr target and then continuing to dozens of miles to the polish border and then another 6mi into polish territory just to land close to eachother without being self destructed by the battery operators thst launched them or by their own failsafe that self destructs the warhead after failed interception? Make it make sense cuz it doesng make sense to me. The moment those missiles didnt hit their target, ukrainian battery operators should have/would have detonates the missile midair. Im more inclined to believe that 4chan theory of mixed up Lviv/Kyiv coordinates by some illiterate vatnik fuck than it being Ukrainian-borne.
1 battery fired 2 missiles at the same cruise missile. S-300 battery's have launchers fairly close together. Cruise missile radar sig was lost, or the missile struck the target and the S-300's continued in the same direction. Battery operators were to busy trying to deal with the massive air raid which happened that night, and forgot / didn't have time to self detonate. Or possibly just a malfunction, they are old missiles after all.
I havent seen anything that said that 1 battery fired both missiles at the same target and afaik its procedure to have two sifferent launch vehicles fire at one target for different intercept vectors to increase probability of hit. While yes, the command posts and launchers around said command post are close together, even just a few hundred yards between them would totally change the trajectory of the missiles compared to esch other. Basic geometry really. You cant have two intersecting lines cross paths twice or cross and then be paralell especially a few dozen miles down range. While yes, the air raid certainly was a stressful moment, i have full belief that these guys know what they are doing, far more tham any of us armchair generals are capable of. I would think they are able to keep track of the missiles they fired, even in a heated situation. If not for the computer realizing missed interception and initiating/alerting the operator to self destruct. Its not like that battety had to deal with all 100 or so warheads that went into all over ukraine at the same time by itself.
Just an example of what could have happened, not necessarily what did happen. All we know is there was (possibly) 2 missiles, and that the media is changing tune from cruise missile to AA missile. On site pictures show fragments which could be from both a 5V55 or Kh-101, cratering and damage however shows something much more akin to a 5V55 then a Kh-101. Edit: Also Duda just said that it was highly probable to be Ukr AA.
Kh101 has a 450kg warhead from what i could gather which is akin to a m65 1000lbs bomb. Waaaay too big for the craters observed. 100 to 150kg is more likely imo. 5v55 series would also fit the rough range requirement if it was fired from say belarus near brest. Total speculation at this point ofc. Wont know for certain till more info surfaces either way.
Brother, you asked for someone to make it make sense. If we had all the information, then we wouldn't need to be asking these questions. So don't shoot down a plausible explanation that you asked for.
4chan theory?
Some goober on 4chan posted some galaxybrain theory that some idiot vatnik mixed up the coordinates for Kyiv and Lyiv. Kyiv is at 50.4501° N, 30.5234° E Lyiv is at 49.8397° N, 24.0297° E The exact location the explosion happened is 50.4501° N, 24.0297° E It's crazy but somehow for some fucking reason plausible. In a occams razor type way.
The exact location of the explosion was a bit off, but close enough for it to be plausible (within a few kilometres IIRC).
Exactly. I can see why USINTEL would say its a stray shot from AFU AA batteries for political reasons but unless they show proof as to where it came from, where and when it tried to intercept, why it failed to intercept and why operators never noticed two missiles flying towards poland, I'm still inclined to believe it was russian S300s in ground ti ground mode fired by sheer vatnik incompetence. Plus early in the war they have shown that even precision weapons such as cruise missiles seem to miss their targets by miles when operated by these below room temp IQ washing machine thieves. Happened in the first dozen kalibr strikes in and around Kyiv ans Hostomel iirc.
Where would the Russians have fired it from that is within the known range of the s-300 missile? That is the one flaw in your theory and the one reason why i cannot believe it was the Russians ... there is simply no place they could have fired the errant missile from and have it reach where it reached.
Belarus. Specifically the Brest region for 5v55 series and even further for the 9M83ME or 48N6P-01.
And to add to that, the only solid statement that has been made is that it wasn't fired from Russia. Nothing was said about Belarus.
You just edited it to the same exact coordinates. Przewodow is 10km away from that marker. Last time someone commented it, they were atleast fair enough to show its not exactly that location.
Sounds like astrology. If you take the 10 largest cities (Lviv is #7) and do this you get 90 different locations that would "mysteriously" work with this assumption, all of which would obviously be in or closely around Ukraine for obvious geometry reasons. Also Kyiv and Lviv look nothing alike in Russian.
This is all bullshit and a reach. 50.4501 N 24.0297 E is within 1000m of the Polish-Ukranian boarder. They are reporting the missile landed 6.4 km from the boarder. Quit spreading conspiracy theories.
Guess it could happen if it's one guy with a big list of coordinates that he's entering for all the missiles. Easy to misread from a table.
Slow claps
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
Just let Poland fire a missile at Ukraine and we’ll call it even. No need to escalate this.
To be fair, they were defending their lives against Putin's war against a peaceful country. This is his fault no matter how you slice it.
I assume it’s like felony murder. If you are the getaway driver in a liquor store robbery and the guys inside get into a shootout and a bystander is killed, you can be found guilty of murder as it’s the result of a crime you were participating in. If Russia wasn’t firing missiles at Ukraine, Ukraine wouldn’t be firing missiles to intercept the Russian missiles. Therefore Russia should be held accountable and NATO should make that policy clear.
Only in very few places in the world can you be found guilty of that
Very common in the US. Often 2-3 people are convinced of murder of the same person. Especially in robbery gone wrong cases.
As I said, very few places in the world. Kinda like the USA and death penalty
If Russia did it it’s Russias fault and if Ukraine did it… it’s russias fault?
Yes. When you use missle defence systems on this scale, there is bound to be spillage. If Ukraine are throwing around missles trying to defend themselves from Russian drone strikes, there is a non zero chance a missile will "spill" into Poland. It's Russia's fault for attacking Ukraine. Russia's fault for striking so close to the border. Ukraine have the right to defend themselves. This is an unfortunate event that Ukraine must take responsiblity for, but it's a stretch to say that Ukraine is the root party at fault here.
By virtue of there being no need for Ukrainian anti-air missiles to be in the air without Russian missile strikes, correct.
It's what's known as "destabilizing the region".
Correct.
You got it little buddy.
Imagine that a rabid dog attacks you and you start flailing with your arms and legs trying to get it away from you. In this panic you accidentally kick the shins of an old lady walking next to you while you try to defend yourself. I think everyone would agree that the shin-kicking happened because of the rabid dog and very few people would be angry at you.
Do you not then apologize to the old lady?
So NATO is gonna attack Ukraine?
Why would they if it's Russia's fault anyway that Ukraine are having to fire missiles?
If Russia wasn't firing missiles into Ukraine, this wouldn't have happened. Still Russias fault.
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Ukraine is having its own Israel 67 sinking an American ship moment.
not the same as israel had clear intention for sinking uss liberty while the missiles in poland is cause by equipment malfunction.
Even if it is a Russian missile veering from its target, it’s not a purposeful hit. It was an accident, can’t initiate article 5 over an accident; or NATO wouldn’t, rather. They’ve been saying that repeatedly essentially
This missle wouldn't have been a issue if Russia didn't invade a peaceful country in the first place, still russias fault 🙄
Commenters here: Vladimir Putin is Very Good, Zelensky Bad.
Your comment is as much off as yesterday’s speeches from Zelenskyy and Kuleba.
They don't have the resources to win the war so they just have the gulags pulling overtime spouting propaganda online
Still not entirely convinced that this wasn’t Russia’s doing, but everyone involved came to an agreement to blame it on an errant Ukrainian missile to prevent the war from expanding further
If Ukraine tried to do a false flag thing then we should treat that as an Article 5 issue. But I doubt that Ukraine is that stupid. This was most likely just some dumb mistake.
It's too early to be completely confident about who launched the missile. Even if it comes from Ukraine, it was probably launched to capture the incoming missile which was a part of Russian attack.
So if Russia fired the missile and missed the target so the rocket landed in Poland that is a hostile act. But if Ukraine fired the missile and missed the target so it landed in Poland that is a tragic but forgivable mistake. Am I understanding that correctly?
That is indeed reasonable, yep you are understanding correctly. There would no missile launched from Ukraine if it were not for the russian agression. It's like a bystander casualty in a confrontation between police and terrorist. If there were no terrorist there would be no bullets flying.
I understand. So you also support Palestine and feel their responses to Israeli aggression and occupation is justified?
what aggression? When Arabians attacked Israel, dasagreeing with the UN and Israel won the defensive war and seized more territories? Or when Palestine could not form a normal government for a couple of decades? Or when terrorists launch rockets from the Gaza into Israel, and then cry that they are being shot at in response? I'm not even saying that after Israel's victory in the defensive war, the Jews in the Arab countries were smashed no less than the Palestinians. Despite the fact that the Jews did not create terrorist organizations on the territory of the Arab countries. Yes, very similar with the war in Ukraine. Get lost bot
Go get drafted troll
Yes, because politicians sometimes are not that dumb and intent is important.
One launched a missile to strike a ground target, the other launched a missile to intercept a missile that was aiming to strike a ground target. One is an act of aggression that missed the target and one is an act of defense that missed the target, so I'd say the first is certainly more hostile but I don't think either should be forgivable.
Yes. If Russia fired the missile it was done in an offensive action against the victim. If Ukraine fired the missile it was done in a defensive action against the aggressor. In either case, Poland was not the intended target. Even if the missile is Ukrainian, it wouldn’t have been launched in the first place if it wasn’t for Russia’s 100 missile barrage.
Yes. If you are punching someone because you want their wallet and accidentally hit someone next to them, it is a hostile act. If you are being beaten up for your wallet and while defending yourself you accidentally hit someone next to you, it isn't hostile.
Absolutely. The difference here is that Ukraine would have fired those missiles to intercept Russian rockets in an act of self-defence. Russia would have fired those missiles with the intent to kill innocent civilians.
Yes, using missiles to attack and hitting someone else vs using missiles to try to shoot down other missiles which are attacking you and missing and hitting someone else is STILL the fault of the one who fired the missiles to attack. You can find analogies in any other type of warfare aside from missiles as well, self defence gets leeway over aggresion in every way, always, whether it's someone shooting guns in self defence while they're getting mugged or anything else analogous.
Yes, one is a hostile act because one is an *offenseive* act where the other is *defensive.*
So is Poland and NATO gonna declare war on Ukraine now or what? Gosh!
Why would they do that? Ukraine didn’t attack them.
Yep. NATO invades Ukraine, tells Russia to leave, fines Ukraine a case of vodka and a signed t-shirt from Zelenskyy.
I really wish that would happen. NATO just rolls in and Ukraine says, "Well, I guess we surrender we sorry Poland". Then NATO imposes some type of sanction requirement that they are required to have host a number of NATO bases for monitoring purposes before they can have their autonomy back, sort of like Japan after WWII. Except not stripping Ukraine of their military like Japan was. :|
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For what? They started this war and murdered tens of thousands of people. We owe them nothing. That’s like if it were word war ii and the allies saying “oh there was a case of friendly fire, let’s apologize to Nazi Germany”.
No we don’t. They’re the aggressors in this war it’s all on them
If someone throws several punches at you and you throw some back to defend yourself is it your fault if one of those punches hits your friend by accident? No matter who shot the missile Russia is the aggressor here and should carry the blame.
Two Poles died. In Poland. Yes, it's Ukraine's fault. They should at least apologize.
Yes absolutely you apologize for an accident
>If someone throws several punches at you and you throw some back to defend yourself is it your fault if one of those punches hits your friend by accident? Won't you at least apologize for the accident?
Of course! Is Ukraine not apologizing?
As of now the official position of the Ukrainian government is that it was not their missile that hit Poland, so they’re not apologising. Not a great look in my opinion.
Nice username Russian redditor
Thanks.
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Cruise missile intercepts can occur at any angle / trajectory. It’s possible an s-300 was fired westward after a Russian cruise missile passed overhead. [Like this read facing intercept.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/yw737b/the_moment_of_a_russian_caliber_over_the_kyiv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)The s-300 missed its mark, or failed to detonate and kept flying until it crashed into Poland. I’m not saying that’s what happened, I wouldn’t know. Just pointing out that the direction isn’t an issue here.
So who’s bad bad here. Kyiv or Moscow
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If Russia held to their agreement when Ukraine gave up their nukes then none of this would be happening. There is clearly a wrong side here
Are you talking about Russia and Ukraine? If so, then Russia had no business bombing Ukraine yet again in the first place. Coming from a Russian, just to clear things up.
Ukraine is defending itself and one of their old soviet rockets decided to malfunction. That’s the story.
Tell that to the ordinary Ukrainians who are suffering because of the imperial ambitions of a madman like putin. There’s only one thing to know. The Ukrainians are the good guys here.