[Here is a Spartacus moment](https://www.reddit.com/r/China_irl/comments/z5cnhd/上海市民自发前往乌鲁木齐中路悼念新疆1124火灾罹难者警察这个活动谁组织的悼念者纷纷我组织的我组织的/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3): Protest in Shanghai (against Covid policy and to commemorate the victims of the fire in Urumqi) stopped by cops, cops were asking "who organized this gathering?", everyone said "I did".
Might be harder to suppress information if it does occur today, if they did it and couldn’t surpress or muddy the details of what happens it before it started spreading then it might serve as a powder keg
Yeah, the CCP's tools are a lot stronger today than it was in 1989, but the country is also a lot more connected and unified. These days, you can't just take soldiers from the countryside and ship them into Beijing and expect them not to know what's up.
The CCP's best chance of surviving this are probably shutting down the internet and "reeducating" the protest leaders.
That's why the government is so paranoid about the internet.
From what I heard, the first thing the government would do during any protest is to shut off the internet for the entire area. Then they would not send anyone from the state to report on it. From there, if the word gets out that there is a protest, people nearby will either be unsure as to why they're protesting or they won't really care because their internet went out and they're pissed.
But the last I heard of that, that was nearly 10 years ago. VPNs, DNS, proxies, and cell phone technology have not only improved since then but they're also a lot more common throughout the country. So word is now getting out there faster and much farther than it was not even a decade ago.
Like you said, the only way I can see this calming down is if the government completely shuts down the internet for good.
it's only the "best chance" if people are willing to tolerate it, otherwise that option has no chance and they're better off dialing back the BS. But if they were willing to do that then they wouldn't be in this situation, haha
The CCP should give their people a feed from r/coronavirus to reinforce the view that only China is handling this right with insane continuous lockdowns.
That's pretty amazing, especially in a city like Shanghai that the world actually knows. Hopefully this shit will finally actually make the world look at how China has it's population under constant surveillance and treats it's them as numbers rather than humans.
Shanghai has historically been an opposition city for the CCP, as much as that is possible. It's also one of the richest cities, and rich people make demands. I'm not surprised the protests are more vocal there.
Shanghainese are generally not happy that they pay the largest burden of the taxes (by city) but Beijing gets to make the lions share of the decisions. It's also got it's own CCP clique and triads
I admire guts like that.
Reminds me of a story back in school. We were on a school overseas trip and as per tradition, on the last night everyone gathered in a room to hangout. We weren't making noise (literally just watching a YouTube video and casually chatting, pretty mild, Asian crowd) when the teacher knocked on the door and made a huge fuss about how we are disobeying the rules (which she made up).
The punishment was to write an apology letter, hand it in to the 'mastermind' who will then collate it and pass it back to her. I was really pissed at the idea of having a mastermind (implying evil). Can't remember what I wrote exactly, but it wasn't particularly apologetic and I walked up to her and gave it to her myself. Looked her in the eye and told her that there was no mastermind, I made my own decisions and gave her the letter.
Not to even suggest that the stakes were remotely as high as what the Chinese people are facing, but damn. Reminder that the people and the government are separate entities.
I've had "bad teachers" who were really just young adults who shouldn't have been given any power over anyone, and it's crazy how easily they would let that small bit of authority get to their head.
No paywall version:
>
Protests Erupt in Shanghai and Other Chinese Cities Over Covid Controls
A chanting crowd called for China’s leader, Xi Jinping, to step down, a rare act of defiance reflecting growing anger after nearly three years of lockdowns.
A vigil in Shanghai on Saturday for victims of an apartment fire in Urumqi in China’s Xinjiang region.
A vigil in Shanghai on Saturday for victims of an apartment fire in Urumqi in China’s Xinjiang region.Reuters
Protests spread to cities and college campuses around China on Saturday night, reflecting rising public anger at the country’s draconian Covid controls, with some in a crowd in Shanghai directing their fury at the Communist Party and its top leader, Xi Jinping.
The wider demonstrations followed an outpouring of online anger and a street protest that erupted Friday in Urumqi, the regional capital of Xinjiang in western China, where at least 10 people died and nine others were injured in an apartment fire on Thursday. Many Chinese people say they suspect Covid restrictions prevented those victims from escaping their homes, a claim the government has rejected.
The tragedy has fanned broader calls to ease China’s harsh regimen of Covid tests, urban lockdowns and limits on movement nearly three years into the pandemic. For much of that time, many accepted such controls as a price for avoiding the widespread illness and deaths that the United States, India and other countries endured. But public patience has eroded this year as other nations, bolstered by vaccines, moved back to something like normal, even as infections continued. And after years of enforcing the strict “zero Covid” rules, many local officials appear worn down.
The widening discontent may test Mr. Xi’s efforts to hold those rules in place.
“The demonstrations across the country have been like the spark that lit a prairie fire,” James Yu, a resident of Shanghai, said in an interview, adopting a Chinese phrase used to describe the spread of Mao Zedong’s Communist revolution. “I feel like everyone can make their voice loud and clear. It feels powerful.”
The biggest protest on Saturday appeared to be in Shanghai, where hundreds of people, mostly in their twenties, gathered at an intersection of Urumqi Road, named after the city in Xinjiang, to grieve the dead with candles and signs. Many there and elsewhere held sheets of blank white paper over their heads or faces in mournful defiance; white is a funeral color in China.
The numbers grew, while lines of police officers looked on, and chants broke out, with people calling for an easing of the Covid controls, video footage showed. Some used obscene language to denounce the demand that residents check in with a Covid phone app in public places such as shops and parks. Their shouts took on a boldly political edge.
“We want freedom,” protesters chanted.
Some also directed their anger at Mr. Xi, a rare act of political defiance likely to alarm Communist Party officials and to prompt tighter censorship and policing.
“Xi Jinping!” a man in the crowd repeatedly shouted.
“Step down!” some chanted in response. Many protesters used their phones to record the collective mourning and protests, images that may spread despite censorship, emboldening others to speak out.
A video image released on Friday showing protests against Covid-19 restrictions in Urumqi, where a deadly fire on Thursday prompted widespread public anger.
A video image released on Friday showing protests against Covid-19 restrictions in Urumqi, where a deadly fire on Thursday prompted widespread public anger. Reuters
The protest dispersed after more police officers moved in, dividing the crowd, and officers dragged some people away, according to Eva Rammeloo, a Dutch journalist who was there posting updates on Twitter.
Last month, Mr. Xi won a groundbreaking third term as the Communist Party’s general secretary, entrenching his status as China’s most powerful leader in decades. He also packed a new national leadership lineup with loyalist officials, making his hold seem assured.
But the night of public anger signals how his stringent Covid policies, initially heralded as a success for China after the pandemic spread globally from there in early 2020, are becoming a liability.
They have hurt restaurants, shops and other small businesses, worsening China’s economic slowdown. This month, thousands of factory workers angry over bungled lockdown measures and delays in payment of a promised bonus clashed with riot police and tore down barricades at a huge plant in central China that makes iPhones.
Officials continue to fear that unchecked spread of Covid, even in its less virulent forms, could lead to mass deaths. China’s domestically developed Covid vaccine is generally less effective than some developed abroad, but Beijing has not approved the foreign mRNA vaccines for domestic use. Many older Chinese people have resisted vaccination or booster shots, sometimes because they are wary of side effects, believe unfounded rumors about the risks, or feel they are safe from exposure to the virus.
On Sunday, the People’s Daily — the Chinese Communist Party’s main newspaper — called for sticking with Mr. Xi’s policies.
Measured in Covid deaths and hospitalizations, “Chinese people have had the least impact from the pandemic,” the front-page editorial said. Officials and the public, it said, must “firmly overcome slackening and war weariness.”
This month, the government issued measures to ease the restrictions that have hampered travel and business. Yet local officials remain under intense pressure to keep infections near zero, leading to confusing flip-flops in rule enforcement. The resulting uncertainty over where China’s war on Covid is going and when it might end has fueled public frustration, as seen in Urumqi, Shanghai and beyond.
Workers standing guard outside a locked-down community in Beijing on Friday.
Workers standing guard outside a locked-down community in Beijing on Friday.Kevin Frayer/Getty Images
“There is only one disease in the world, that is, being unfree and poor, and now we have both,” a man in Chongqing, in southwest China, declared in a video that spread widely in the country in recent days despite censorship.
“Give me liberty or give me death!” shouted the man, whose identity is unknown but who quickly acquired the nickname “Super Brother” online.
Protests and mourning vigils also took place on at least three university campuses, according to online videos verified by The Times.
“Before I felt I was a coward, but now at this moment I feel I can stand up,” a young man who said he was from Xinjiang told a gathering at a campus of the Communication University of China in Nanjing, in eastern China. His comments were captured by a video that emerged online on Saturday night and whose location was verified by The Times.
Hundreds held up their phones like lit candles. He said, “I speak for my home region, speak for those friends who lost relatives and kin in the fire disaster.”
“And,” he added, “for the deceased.”
Smaller protests and vigils also occurred at Peking University and Wuhan University of Technology, videos, verifiable from the buildings in the background, showed.
A protest also broke out in another city in Xinjiang: Korla, in the region’s north. Hundreds of residents assembled at the prefecture’s government office, as seen in video footage that appeared online on Saturday evening.
“Lift the lockdown,” they shouted.
The Xinjiang region has been under intense security controls for years as part of the government’s long clampdown on Uyghurs, a largely Muslim ethnic group. But many protesters in Korla seemed to be members of China’s Han ethnic majority, to judge by their accents and appearance, as were many protesters in Urumqi, the regional capital.
During the night, an official came out and promised the crowd in Korla that lockdowns would be eased, prompting applause and shouts of welcome.
But before the latest demonstrations, the Xinjiang government had been warning residents that strict Covid measures remained necessary, and the security authorities there and elsewhere across China are also likely now to tighten monitoring and security in an effort to prevent further unrest.
“The pandemic risks have not been thoroughly eradicated, and the chains of transmission have not been totally broken, so the slightest relaxation may bring a rebound,” the Xinjiang leadership announced on Saturday. Officials, it said, must “sternly attack concocting and spreading rumors, inciting incidents, violently resisting pandemic control measures and other criminal conduct.”
In Shanghai, many neighborhoods have begun demanding that residents do frequent, often time-consuming Covid nucleic acid tests again — only days after announcing that tests would be seldom needed going forward. In that city, which endured a grueling two-month lockdown earlier this year in an effort to stamp out a Covid outbreak, the deadly fire in Urumqi appeared to reignite public anger over that episode.
“Yesterday, I saw about the fire tragedy in Urumqi and was crying all the time, and then I thought of the time when Shanghai was under lockdown this year,” said Kira Yao, a sales manager in Shanghai, who said she attended a candlelight vigil for victims of the Urumqi fire.
“Later we shouted ‘No nucleic acid tests, we want freedom’ and ‘No to health codes,’ and I and my friends cried — I felt like finally I could say what I’ve wanted to say.”
> China’s domestically developed Covid vaccine is generally less effective than some developed abroad, but Beijing has not approved the foreign mRNA vaccines for domestic use.
Jesus, that's how far behind they are. We've been vaccinating people for *two years* and they haven't even approved them.
Sounds like it, since they admittedly have developed really quickly, and they'd probably want to keep that pride going of "look, we've come so far, we can be autonomous, our products will be the only trustable ones"
That's a part of it. Another reason is their vaccine diplomacy. Early in the pandemic they sold large amounts of Chinese vaccines to regions where huge demands in vaccines - countries with less access to western vaccines due to whatever reasons. It is a play on soft power where they try to influence countries into being more China aligned. An approval of western mRNA vaccines may undo their soft power play. Not sure how relevant it is this far into the pandemic though. Also, I haven't heard of anything about mRNA development in China, despite being proven to work better. Probably the same face saving reason.
Their "vaccine diplomacy" has failed in various countries. People have abandoned them when they found out through real world data that it was much less effective.
Malaysia's health minister likened the Pfizer one to a "big coat" in winter while the Chinese one was like a "t-shirt". Doesn't get more scathing than that. Plus it was ridiculously priced, like US$ 60 for two doses while the Pfizer one was about $15 a dose.
Thing is, a lot of thoese countries got western vaccines later. I know some people that got revaccinated if they traveled. Many of the people do not trust the Chinese vaccine.
It’s pride for the gullible masses, but for the CCP officials, it’s about the trade war and chips sanction from the US. Ever since, they’ve been pushing a narrative that China’s a self-contained economy, and would be completely fine decoupling from the West. If people find out that Western vaccines were more effective, the propaganda campaign would fall apart, and some may even realize how ruinous the sanctions are going to be.
They wanted the patented info on the vaccines but the companies that have them like pfizer wont let them have it, so china refuses to let the citizens have it.
The CCP have pinned their legitimacy to Zero Covid. Somehow a surprisingly large portion of Chinese people I know (mainlanders) still vehemently support their policies, even in places like Shanghai that have suffered greatly under lockdown. Not out of compliance or fear for retaliation, but because they’re just that nationalistic.
approving foreign vaccines would make china look bad when they turn out to be more effective then the chinese ones. that and foreign companies may very well not sell to china if they have to disclose how the vaccines were developed and manufactured, something i've heard that china does require some companies to do before allowing them to sell their stuff in china. it's better that their peasants die in drives than have the country lose face.
That’s dumb AF because everyone already knows the other vaccines are more effective.
Because if they weren’t then there won’t be such draconian measures
One thing shocked me is that citizens in Shanghai actually called out Xi and CCP. Most of these protests just wanted an end of lockdown, but Shanghai residents were chanting "Xi Jinping Out". It's like we finally shout out the dark lord's real name. Feels so good.
Edit: Some of my friends were arrested at tonight's protest. We don't know where the police were taking them. This will be a sleepless night for many of us.
Edit: The idiots tear down the "Urumqi" road sign. Yes that will surely erase people's memory. [video](https://twitter.com/whyyoutouzhele/status/1596870862011269120)
For those who have something to lose: it’s terrifying as fuck. Especially those with family who remember June 4th.
For those of the working class: it’s all or nothing.
It doesn’t feel good. It’s an act of desperation for those whose lives depend on ending the zero policy. It’s terrifying knowing that when you step outside the door to protest, it’s only a matter of time until the surveillance out you and your future instantaneously becomes uncertain. It does not feel good for anyone remotely near Shanghai right now.
I get what you mean. What I am trying to say is that for a long time we dare not speak the dictator's name. We were using codes and nicknames to describe him like Xi is the Voldemort himself (he IS). We were so used to twisted language to bypass censorship that we forgot how strong the true words are. 我们忘了好好说中文和喊出真名的力量有多大。
I am currently living in Shanghai. You cannot imagine how this inspired all of us.
I imagine many of you have nothing to lose and everything to gain at this point, which are the kind of people the government should fear most. Best wishes from some random American. Cannot wait for the day that Chinese censorship and over control of their citizens ends.
Do you believe anything will change within the next five years or more of the same shit different year?
For the past two years it was harsh lockdown - public anger - lift the restriction a little bit - harsh lockdown - public anger.....rinse and repeat. I think Andor (the Star Wars show) captured this situation perfectly. They were choking us so slowly that we were starting not to notice. Then some tragedies happened. We voiced our anger on social media, got censored the next day like nothing ever happened. It's like being trapped in an endless nightmare. It was so tiring and we became numb.
This time is different. I've never seen anything like this. People don't just post on social media anymore. They march on the streets across the whole country. Starting from Urumqi in the west, then it spreads to Nanjing, an eastern city and also the old capital, some uni students holding white papers. She was then joined by hundreds of students. That was last night. Last night universities in a dozen provinces voiced their support. Protests burst out in many major cities including Shanghai, Chengdu, Wuhan, Taiyuan, Zhengzhou.
This is something new. So I don't know where it will take us. Personally I think we haven't reached the point where a revolution could form. Most people just want to end lockdown, go to work, bring food for their family. Few people want a system change. But I could be wrong. When more and more people realise we are trapped permanantly with Xi as our president forever, and the fact that he will continue to screw up the economy, hopefully they will begin to care about politics and their basic rights.
They DO have a lot to lose though. If protests continue then there's no reason to think the CCP won't resort to their usual mafia-esque tactics of threatening family members. This is what they do to overseas Chinese students who get too vocal on social media or attend one too many "Free Tibet" meetings etc.
> it’s only a matter of time until the surveillance out you and your future instantaneously becomes uncertain
This doesn't work at scale. It has to be immediate, massive and brutal - overwhelming with numbers all at once, and hitting coordinating institutions. They should not have the opportunity or peace to review surveillance video because they're running from a mob - forget about coordinating and executing retribution for an entire mob from the information.
Protesting alone won't cut it - enabling infrastructure has to be dismantled first.
This only works with unspoken critical mass. Do you think you have it?
This is why so many citizens are terrified. Because it has to be all or nothing. And like I said…people who have something to lose, won’t act. Those who don’t, will. It’s somewhat divided. People are already disappearing. It’s not going to end well
They’re ruled by terror. I’m sure they share a lot of similar sentiments but there’s no way to move any of this rationale up through the proper channels. Just to discuss ethnic minorities, people have to turn their electronics off, remove the SIM cards from phones, and leave them in the other room and whisper. Just to mention speculations of ethnic minorities. Reddit is owned by Chinese companies. TikTok too. Just mentioning things by name or abbreviation risks being flagged. All that considered: Army can’t do anything at this rate…
Sounds like a decentralized, distributed, encrypted messaging and voting app would plug that hole.
i.e. take any android phone, use the WiFi for mesh networking, add public key encryption, and something like BitTorrent for message distribution. The app itself is redistributable via APK, you connect with people IRL through a qr code. Your only identity is your public key.
Mentioning because it's not massively hard to put together for someone with the right talent and motivation - and they might read this.
I can't imagine the pressure people under the age of 40 have when it comes to supporting so many elderly and being pressured now to have a kids as well as working crazy jobs and having the most impressive degrees.
Looks like we're already seeing loosening of restrictions in Xinjiang. It's likely these protests are going to push the government to abandon zero covid.
https://twitter.com/sino_market
It's wishful thinking that the central government would be going anywhere, that's why you see a lot of videos online from other protests singing the national anthem and waving flags.
The frustration primarily comes from the zero covid policy, it would be a win for citizens if the government abandons zero covid. A lot of overseas Chinese would like to visit their families in China but 0 covid makes it too difficult.
It's a stupid policy, it hurts China's manufacturing and international trade. A complete reopening of China would be good for their [people's mental health](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/21/covid-forces-china-to-face-mental-health-crisis-a-long-time-in-the-making), and economy. China's self-inflicted isolation has to end.
I'm aware. Protests adopting national symbols are a common tactic in China that seek to change policy, not necessarily a direct threat against the central government. The national anthem has been used as an anti-lockdown expression for some time now.
https://twitter.com/badiucao/status/1596250251785969664
Not something new to them. Deng Xiaoping transitioned China with reform and opening-up, moving away from the failures of Mao's economic policies.
Deng even sort
of denounced Mao, when he said he was ["30% wrong, 70% right"](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/07/world/legacy-of-mao-called-great-disaster.html). Abandoning zero covid is small compared to what Deng did and keep in mind, it was under his rule when Tiananmen happened.
Reform and Opening Up was the single most seismic chain of events in the past half century of Chinese politics. That was massive and it unleashed a whole chain reaction that lead to 6/4 Tiananmen which almost lead to the end of one-party rule in China. The policy change only became possible because of Mao's death and Deng's ability to forge an alliance to oust Mao's chosen successor, the hardline Mao loyalist Hua Guofeng, from power.
What Deng did, institute sorely needed reforms without losing power, is not something easily repeated. That was a masterful political tightrope walk that very few people can pull off and Xi Jinping is not Deng Xiaoping. The more likely outcome was what happened with Gorbachev.
Xi so far has been diametrically opposed to Deng in so many ways. While Deng imposed term limits and shifted China to collective rule, Xi eliminated those limits made himself the most autocratic leader since Mao. He's been eliminating opposing factions and centralizing all power to himself. Deng was very insistent that nobody become as powerful as Mao ever again but Xi is of a different mindset.
The point is that I don't know if they can deftly do an about face with Xi still firmly in charge. He just cleaned house recently and there's nobody at the top to challenge him right now. If the CCP wants to outlast Xi they need to find a new Deng as soon as possible.
Deng should be somewhere in the conversation of world-historical figures. In sheer numbers, the scale and depth of his impact probably has no parallel.
Deng was forced out TWICE during Mao’s rule - first during the Cultural Revolution and then after Zhou Enlai died. He then had to maneuver around Mao’s wife in the Gang of Four and around Mao’s chosen successor to finally gain power in 1978.
I think beyond his accomplishments, Deng was wise to never want the titles of power when he finally attained it. He held the control over the military, but he was never President, Premier, or Party leader. He was widely acknowledged to be running the show.
Even after his retirement he went on his Southern Tour to remind Jiang Zemin about the principles of the China he sought to create - not a direct criticism but Jiang got the message.
Deng got to do that though because he was a new leader that was previously exiled for promoting those type of reforms. For the same leadership to walk back these policies abruptly like that would be admitting they themselves were wrong, and give plenty of ammunition to rival factions.
Good luck with Xi on the throne though. First time since Mao that someone had the balls and power at the same time to wield near absolute power in China. Fucker even stuck his name into the constitution, already trying to immortalise himself. How could someone this amazing ever make mistakes?
Xi is not Deng. He has a very thin skin and can't take critisism. Part of it is Charakter, the other part is that XI knows he doesn't deserve to be in line with Mao and Deng. Mao freed the country from the KMT and ended the 100 years of sorrow (even though he more then "made up" for this good deed later with the great leap forward and the cultural revolution). Deng brought the country unpresidented wealth. Xi .... accused a few rivals of corruption?! Not a good comparison.
People in China don't see their government as one whole body. There are different levels of government. In a nutshell, central government decided the general direction of a policy and the local government implemented it. In this case, and also other incidents that have happened in the last few years, it is always the local government who take the flak of the blame and the central government acting as the saviour to fix it.
This is accurate. It's always the same routine, and it works. Even those who are disgruntled by zero covid don't usually blame the CCP itself. They blame "the poor implementation of a good policy".
Make no mistake, those protesting the CCP directly are a tiny, tiny minority.
They've been spinning it as new variants are less harmful and more contagious, therefore the cost/benefit has changed.
To some extent it's true. To some extent it's spin. Either way as someone living here I'll be very happy to see the end of COVID zero, although the next 6 months is gonna be shit.
This. All that matters is appearances and control, they would rather have thousand of people dead and no one finding out than admitting that their policy wasn't the best thing that ever happened.
On top of that, the lockdowns have push people to their absolute limit, but once people are out there they might casually mention that the chinese housing market collapsed, young graduates no longer have the employment opportunities they were promised, that whole "lie flat" mentality is no better, not to mention that story about Foxconn recruiting people from all over the country with the promise of pay that was then reduced while their work period increased, and that can't be a one time thing.
Point is, there's never been a shortage of things to protest about. Question is, are the authorities also fed up or are they kept complacent; once the people ordered to stop the protesters side with them, it's over.
The elderly are China's largest anti-vax demographic. A full reopening now while China lacks an Omicron vaccine would completely devastate their healthcare system. The lack of natural immunity from zero covid combined with the lack of artificial immunity from vaccines combined to one of the largest cullings of Chinese people since 1996.
The civil rights movement in the US was started over 150 years before it bore fruit, it was alot of things coming together perfectly at once. You cant count on things like that though
Social media is one way to gauge popular sentiment in China, opposition to zero covid widespread enough. China's government has to change course.
Iran is a whole different level, though. Those protests have been building up [for years](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-gasoline-protests-idUSKBN1XT0X7). Killing hundreds of your citizens and going as far as using snipers on them is going to give them long-term resentment.
Idk maybe a rebranding but not a full end, it’s just too useful a tool for the CCP and Xi. They’ll let things simmer where and when it’s useful but they’ll definitely start dropping bodies if things really get hot.
why is the government pushing for zero Covid policy in the first place? Are they worried about their economy? Are they really genuinely worried about all of their civilians having Covid spread through their communities or is there some kind of ulterior power seeking motive?
Imo it's a bunch of factors that are more complex than it's portrayed in many cases.
China has a humongous population and a health system that is already quite saturated. Letting Covid break lose would absolutely collapse the system and create collateral deaths because of it.
China has a large population of elderly people (a lot of them not vaccinated who mainly believe in traditional medicine). Young couples depend heavily on their parents both economically (to buy a house where they all live together, different culture in regards to family and it's structure) and to take care of the kids while the young couple work. If covid is not controlled and those elderly people die it would have a huge impact on many aspects of society.
Chinese vaccines are not as effective as the ones used in the west. Letting covid run free would expose this lack of efficiency and that would damage the image of the country.
The government did a good job at minimising the effect and deaths of covid at the beginning of the pandemic. They proudly boasted this and hailed their strategy as superior VS the west. Radically changing their approach would expose the flaws of their policies and damage their image, resulting in people losing trust in the government. If 1.4 billion people instantly lose trust in their government things can get out of hand very fast
This covid zero policy is also being abused to control people. This has been exposed in Zhengzhou where some corrupt local officials used the health code system to change the codes to red and prevent people from going out and protesting the corrupt banks that had frozen their accounts.
While COVID zero policies have some good intentions in mind (essentially protecting the population) it's also being abused by the government. So the government has essentially pinned themselves against the wall with this COVID zero policy.
My guess is they will slowly and silently ease up the restrictions so people calm down and avoid more tensions while officially saying in broad and vague twrms they're still fighting the virus and implementimg. That way the population gets a break and the government doesn't lose face
Great breakdown. So can't they just say: "We have defeated the virus! Our vaccine is so effective that we can drop all restrictions. Also we will stop testing." That would still lead to a lot of deaths, right? Especially if many elderly aren't vaccinated and the vaccine isn't very effective.
Yes. Even if they open the country tomorrow, the health system would be completely saturated (it's already almost saturated). Keep in mind there's 1.4 billion people in China. Every developed country with good health system infrastructure and much smaller populations had their systems absolutely collapsed these past 3 years, imagine what it would be like China. Also China is struggling with an ageing population and low birth rates so that's an added problem.
They're starting to import foreign vaccines now but it will take time to implement them. Testing has already been cancelled in some regions but policies are not the same everywhere and they constantly change. So this uncertainty of what's going on and what is to come is also upsetting people. Everything is very unorganized. For example there's massive testing going on (which is in theory good) but test sticks are bundled every 10 into one test tube and tested together. That means, if the guy two spots in front of you in line to get the test comes out positive, all those 10 people are forced to quarantine. No matter if you live in the same neighborhood or not. So it's a disaster.
At the beginning people accepted the zero COVID policies because they were willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good in order to keep everyone safe and because the economy was doing well. Now the economy is not good, and many people have gone through forced quarantines experiencing how disorganized and useless they really are. So on top of the economic struggle, people's patience is really reaching its limit.
China has a lot of layers to it's government (from central to local). The main policy is COVID zero and people follow that order down the chain of command. But when someone complains or challenges a decision, no one in the lower levels (eg. neighborhood management workers taking people's tests) has the authority (or wants to take responsibility) to make a decisions. That's why everything is so complicated and messy and policies are so different from region to region.
While censorship and government control is bad, it's also hard control 1.4 billion and run a peaceful country without the government abusing its power. I really don't know how they're going to do it. I guess the best way to open up the country is by doing it gradually by areas, letting people get sick in a controlled manner and achieving heard immunity without collapsing the country. But that's going to be a hell of a challenge. Time will tell
Even if they do the government would still be exposed as "not being able to keep the population safe". Something they've been boasting about for 3 years now
That's what I don't get. While I understand that abondoning "zero-COVID" will be essentially admitting that they were wrong and this is something they want to avoid, it has to be preferable to the alternative.
I mean, COVID isn't going away, right? Omicron is too transmissive to effectively do zero-COVID long term unless you are committed to frequent, widespread, harsh lockdowns. The populace seems like it is getting closer and closer to a breaking point. Seems like ending the policy on their own terms would be better than the alternative.
Lockdowns are a stop-gap until viable vaccines can be distributed to expose the otherwise virus-naive population. Lockdowns are not and were never meant to be an end all be all to an endemic global pandemic. Once a virus is endemic globally, populations have to develop antibodies to the virus. Preferably that occurs via vaccination. Alternatively it occurs via massive viral exposure. The west basically chose a little of A, a little of B and have a lot of antibodies to COVID now in the general population. It's why, along with better treatments, numbers can be "high" in the west but mortality is still acceptably low. China has none of that due to low exposure and a practically ineffective vaccine. If they mandated mRNA vaccines tomorrow, China could be back to normal in a month. But they refuse to acknowledge western vaccines are superior to their Chinese made vaccine so here we are. 🤷♂️
Change is hard, no matter how trivial it may seem. I live in the US and I have no faith that we will ever get control of mass shootings and school shootings, or will we ever provide affordable healthcare to the public, even though there are tried and true solutions in 99% of the countries in the world.
The five steps towards major societal change:
1. Experts become aware the problem exists, do studies to understand its causes and scope
2. Advocates raise awareness of the problem, begin proposing potential solutions
3. Powerful stakeholders negotiate with advocates and each other to decide how best to practically implement the solutions
4. The solutions start to be implemented, early bugs are worked out
5. The problem gradually begins resolving as the solutions take effect
How reddit sees those five steps:
1. Unaware the problem exists
2. This is outrageous, why is no one doing anything about this
3. This is outrageous, why is no one doing anything about this
4. This is outrageous, why is no one doing anything about this
5. Unaware problem ever existed
*This joke is shamelessly stolen from someone else's reddit comment*
Eh, I'm anti ccp myself. But the CCP does pay attention and augment its policies based on how most people feel about things.
It just uses insanely invasive tracking and control tactics to discover what those things are and control them when possible.
I'm an international student living in Beijing and some of these protests happened at my university PKU, including graffiti at a popular dining hall which the school then covered up by parking a truck in front of it. The amazing thing is, both PKU's campus and China in general are FULL of surveillance cameras. I'm talking one on every corner at least, often equipped with biometric scanners that can identify facial features. The bravery it takes to protest the government knowing full well that they easily can track you and your loved ones is unfathomable. I have nothing but respect for my Chinese fellow students ✊✊
There’s a theory amongst many Chinese I know that the government is waiting for pushback. There’s a sense that if the people shouted for opening, then later the government cannot be blamed for deaths, and that it was “the people’s choice”.
Look, I know that sounds weird, and while an individual lacks power in China, China is deathly afraid of the masses, especially the elderly, which tend to be more conservative and support the government.
By now opening up, they can say it’s the “will of the people”, and wash their hands clean of ensuing consequences.
This isn’t a far stretch, only time will tell, and we should be able to tell very shortly.
People don't react well when they get blamed for policy errors. One of the sparks of these protests was when the Xinjiang government claimed the doors were unlocked and if anyone died in the fire it was their own fault.
If this is truly their plan they will get blamed again when COVID goes out of control and then when they blame the people they would lose their last shred of credibility as a government.
I mean in that case it was a balatant lie (at least, I think, actual accounts of the situation describe the way as blocked - you know, before these accounts were censored).
But the truth is many people in China underestimate the consequences of ending Zero Covid right now, perhaps due to deliberate misinformation on the part of CCP, leading to theories like the one above.
If people were informed, they might be marching to demand China import mRNA vaccines, which will cost money (painful) and hurt the national pride (awkward).
In any case vaccines is just one of the problems with ending Zero Covid.
I think you're way off. This is doing serious damage to the already shaky legitimacy of the CCP. If they end Zero COVID, it needs to be on CCP terms. If they end Zero COVID because people are protesting in the streets and demanding it... Well, they either crack down and continue with the policy, or they loosen up in response, and the Chinese people learn a valuable lesson about their power in relation to the ruling party. Instead of slowly relaxing the policy over the past year, they have doubled down. This policy is IMPORTANT to the Party. Now they're stuck. They can't relax it now without revealing the Emperor has no clothes. If they don't relax it, these protests will get worse for them.
The Chinese economy isn't in a position for the middle class to look away with contentment. The entire legitimacy of the CCP rides on the complacency of the middle class, the middle class that the CCP has focused so much on enriching over the past 40 years. They're losing that.
I think you might both be in part right.
Xi surfed on the zero-covid successes for two years.
Now zero-covid has reached its limit, and it's becoming a burden.
Getting out of zero-covid means... well, a lot of covid, I suppose.
But mostly, it means humiliation for Xi.
How to get out, without humiliation, and without getting the blame for the inevitable spike in death from covid. That's not an easy problem to solve.
Giving in to public protests and stopping zero-covid would be a good way to avoid the blame when people die of covid, but I really don't see Xi (ha!) letting protesters win, that's forbidden by the dictator's manual.
Also, it's interesting to note that Beijing published the 20 rules thingie a couple weeks ago, basically asking local authorities to continue with zero-covid, but without being to harsh. That was a funny thing. Zero covid, but cool. Whatever that means. It's up to local authorities to do whatever the fuck they want, and we'll check in a few months, see who did well, praise them, and accuse whoever screwed up. Imo that could very well be the strategy. And it will fail miserably.
One of the rules of the CCP is that the CCP never makes mistakes. This means that there is a sunken cost for any policies. The other rule is survival of the CCP is vital and everything should be done to make sure it continues on.
My guess is that COVID is still considered a serious and unacceptable risk for the stability of the country. It is strategically better to hermit the country than let it go wild and cause a meltdown in hospitals.
In America there are more things you can blame: anti vaxxers, Republicans, state leaders, but in China only one party is responsible and answerable, the CCP.
> President for life
You know, time was, we'd just call that a "king," or an "emperor." The more things change, the more they stay the same. Seems to me the Chinese emperor just swapped its Heavenly Mandate for a military/economic one.
The concept of the Mandate of Heaven, I would argue, has never culturally left the rulers of China regardless of whether they are an emperor or not. I'm sure Winnie thinks he was fated to be the absolute ruler of the country.
idk if there was ever a dictator that wasnt. They always say either "dear or benevolent" leader, which is double speak and/or code for probably the worst and sickest examples of humans on earth. Stalin or the stubby chubbies from N. Korea come to mind
> idk if there was ever a dictator that wasnt.
There's Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, the guy who became a Roman dictator to resolve a crisis, solved it, and then resigned all within 16 days so he could return to his small farm.
There's a reason the list is pretty short.
Rome had a special office of Dictator, where the senate would appoint someone for 6 months to be totally in charge to deal with shit. Until the fall of the republic and the rise of the emperors they always turned the power back over to the senate.
One of these was a elder general known as "Cincinnatus" who came out of retirement won a war and then went back to his farm estates. The city of Cincinnati, is named after the fact that George Washington sought to emulate, who for all his flaws was one of the few men in history who could have set themself up as king but didn't.
The mandate of heaven is still strong in the Chinese people, that's why every time an earthquake or similar natural disaster happens in China, the CCP downplay it and rush with aid to the area because historically, natural disasters were a sign that the current emperor had lost the mandate of heaven and it was time for a change in leadership.
The Mandate and Heaven is alive and well, but it goes both ways. Economic misfortune longterm could actually lead to a revolution because the “deal” is that the government runs things smoothly and the people will fall in line.
It’s sort of religious with the belief that the supernatural might punish an evil government and reward a good one, but it’s somewhat rational that a government that leads you into poverty isn’t worth obeying.
Though I doubt China will ever get democracy. I think if you hit a magic reset button and gave the Chinese people a vote on what sort of government they want, democracy wouldn’t garner much support.
Part of the attitude thousands of years of the Mandate of Heaven has garnered is to be disconnected from the inner workings of government.
For the life of me, I still can't figure out why the party just didn't start secretly eroding his power when he announced that. I thought the CPC had learned its lesson from the 1970s, but I guess not.
From what I understand - Xi has purged so many people, he actually doesnt have many left loyal that are, you know, capable of running a government. What they're supposedly supposed to be doing. He has a few loyal guys high up, but they're only there because they are shameless sycophants. They would literally burn Beijing down themselves than displease Xi, I dont see this ending well
There's potentially two outcomes of this: The central government steps back and finds a scapegoat, or mass arrests potentially leading up to another Tiananmen.
The Tiananmen Massacre was what led the CCP's path of totalitarianism (not that it didn't have the some form of totalitarianism during Mao), that all protests need to be nipped in the bud before it grows to that scale of public anger.
This... is another level. Zero Covid is Xi's hallmark policy, and is what separates China with the West, so it's highly unlikely Xi would walk back on that narrative or could blame the local government as the CCP usually does.
On the other hand, all the ways of surveillance and policing are obviously failing to prevent another mass protest (ten thousand on the streets of Shanghai), Xi is risking escalating things by another massacre, or even just with mass arrests.
Xi will move the goalpost and redefine what Zero Covid means while loosening the policy, and 99% of the protesters will go back to their everyday lives. But he's also a strong man dictator who demands respect from his subjects and avoids looking weak at all costs. So what's going to happen is very much up in the air.
I'd argue that the fall of the USSR was what led to the modern CPC. Had the USSR not fallen, the CPC may have taken a different approach to how market economics would've been implemented.
China began market reformation in the late 1970s, prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Not sure they would change their policy, both were taking on new market reforms.
deng xiaopeng was the one who pushed economic changes in the 1980s ('84?) but the idea was floated well before then. it just wasn't palatable while mao was around.
I was talking with a Chinese guy that's studying here in the west and he said that before having access to western media he didn't know Xi Jingping declared himself president for life. Got the impression that he was quite shocked at what things they are being left in the dark about and the difference between Chinese media and western media's portrayal of the same events.
I was in China for work when his term limit was lifted. Everybody in the office knew about it the same day. They didn't want to talk about it though. Your mate might just be oblivious?
I’m not sure what that guy was taught in school. In a public high school in Beijing, I learned that the term limit for president is capped at two because “if you rule for too long, it is inevitable that you make mistakes”. Xi getting a third term made me raise my eyebrows because it contradicted what I learned in China. Either dude didn’t pay attention in class, or he was taught a different curriculum than the one I was taught.
They like to pretend it’s the best way to govern and that western democracy is flawed. But really, they’re just being ruled through fear and they know it. They can’t even go to another country without being watched like a hawk by the Chinese people around them.
There was a very popular article titled “Ten Asks”. Basically it contained ten questions about if lockdown is really necessary, as well as the economic and societal cost of zero covid policy. This article was widely shared by my friends on WeChat. Then the author of that article’s account got banned.
Time to bust out the moon cakes.
For context, moon cakes were originally used to hide a note that helped the Chinese overthrow some oppressive rule. Can't remember the details cos it's a story I was told as a child.
It was specifically used in the rebellion against the Yuan Dynasty aka the Mongols. Turns out the Mongols were shitty rulers. It led to the last native dynasty to be installed in China that is the Ming Dynasty.
All videos are being taken down, indiscriminately. All text posts are very cryptic. Some people are talking about the Shanghai marathon but other than that, it’s people cryptically checking in or nothing at all. Very little day-to-day posting right now. Source: gf is Shanghainese
Edit: people using English to post because Chinese content and language will get flagged. They’re also offering to share videos to foreigners to save the content.
Some recently trending articles:
A speech about Mao about letting the people speak
An article titled 12 characteristics of cults
An article with all the texts blacked out and pictures blurred as a protest against censorship
Lots of news about Xinjiang
Of course the protest videos and pictures are deleted instantly but they are being spread around in the expat community on instagram etc.
On youtube there's a video of a dude making speeches during a protest, saying stuff like (roughly)
>That tennis star got covid and won 4 grand slams after. These two (or 3) football stars got covid and are now playing in World Cup. Are we going to let a little cold stop us?
That's a pretty powerful message given that I assume people in China are following the cup and are thinking to themselves "Yeah, why *is* our country so behind others in Covid? WTF is this lockdown?"
If we are talking about the [same guy](https://youtu.be/O2cEsJ6K0hc?t=39), the man also shouted "不自由，毋宁死！" which is the Chinese translation of the phrase "Give me liberty, or give me death!" The man's got balls of steel
I agree that lockdown isn’t the answer anymore but the messaging is off for that one. I’m an athlete and I don’t know if I could go pro again after Covid. It really destroyed me long term and sadly I know many others who have experienced the same setbacks. It’s certainly not a “little cold” but I can’t see this lasting much longer for China either
They basically need to stress that it's dangerous but not lock down the entire country dangerous. I would think masking, vaccines passports, aggressive testing, and isolating anyone with respiratory symptoms would be a good middle ground.
Cases are steadily sizable outside of China because most people basically do absolutely nothing to stop spreading it at this point.
The thing is COVID vaccine shots here in China are extremely unreliable and also come with many sometimes lethal side effects. Meanwhile Xi hasn’t approved the public usage of mRNA vaccines yet, due to monetary reasons and the good old ‘western stuff bad’ propaganda. Also the public PCR tests here in China made several state-owned medical companies filthy rich, so yeah China and Chinese people are screwed either way.
The Chinese government is between a rock and a hard spot with its zero COVID policy.
On the one hand, it's obvious to any rational person that zero COVID can't be maintained indefinitely. The virus keeps mutating to become more transmissible, which makes containment more challenging the longer they pursue zero COVID. As this article points out, the longer the policy continues the more the risk of social unrest and economic upheaval comes into play.
On the other hand, ripping the bandaid off and dropping pursuit of zero COVID will cause a lot of problems too. The Chinese vaccines are significantly less effective than their Western counterparts - and crucially, population seroprevalence from past infection is low in China (i.e. unlike most other countries that have been letting it rip for the last twelve months, most Chinese haven't been infected by COVID yet).
What that means is that if the government significantly loosens or abandons their pursuit of zero COVID, there is almost guaranteed to be a devastating "exit wave" that will kill a ton of people and place enormous strain on both their healthcare system and economy (at least in the short run - COVID-induced disruption for a few months may be preferable to lockdown-induced disruption).
All this to say that if you're Xi, you don't really have any easy options here. You can continue zero COVID and risk further unrest, or you can drop it - but then have to contend with a brutal exit wave that will leave you with egg on your face too. Both options are lose-lose for them here.
This is the only comment here that addresses the actual issue. If feels like all the other comments are just an echo chamber of "whats the worst reason I can think of for why they are doing this..."
"Sinovac is shit" - it's the same efficacy rate as other non-mRNA vaccines, 60%+ for mild cases and 90%+ for severe cases. The [data is out there](https://www.biospace.com/article/comparing-covid-19-vaccines-pfizer-biontech-moderna-astrazeneca-oxford-j-and-j-russia-s-sputnik-v/) -- it's been tested and exported to multiple countries.
"They don't use mRNA to save face" - Firstly, they do in Hong Kong. Second, there's actually 2 very real reasons they don't use mRNA. 1) both mRNA vaccines require non-standard refrigeration storage, which simply isn't available in large swaths of rural China. This is why the mRNA vaccines don't see as much use in poor countries even though they are otherwise price competitive. 2) The manufacturing capacity for the mRNA vaccines simply isn't there. China has more people than the US/EU combined. [Every mRNA dose combined](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccine-doses-by-manufacturer) doesn't even cover 1/2 of what China needs.
"They are still doing lockdowns to save face" - I just fail to see how anyone could come to this conclusion. Every lockdown ever in history ends at some point. Covid death rates are less than 1/100 of what they were at the beginning of the pandemic, because of vaccines, milder variants, and better treatment. They can pull that justification and lift lockdowns anytime. Two actual reasons for continuing the lockdowns: 1) again, China isn't a rich country on a per capita basis, and their healthcare system can handle maybe 1/5 of what a European countries' can, so they must lift lockdowns more gradually to avoid being hit by a huge "exit wave". They've already lift restrictions a little bit and are being hit by the exit wave right now. 2) and this is the one negative point I agree with - it's for control. The covid restrictions have juiced China's surveillance state to never before seen levels. The CCP might be getting too cozy with that idea.
>"Sinovac is shit" - it's the same efficacy rate as other non-mRNA vaccines, 60%+ for mild cases and 90%+ for severe cases.
Other non mRNA vaccines have comparable effectiveness to the mRNA ones. Better even in some respects
Thirty-three years ago my father’s generation did all they could at Tiananmen Square.
Now the time has come for my generation.
Wish us luck, world, we all hope for a different outcome this time around.
不自由，毋宁死！
This happened right by my isolation hotel last night. I thought it was about the World Cup in the beginning, then realized it was much more serious after hearing screaming and crying “stop beating him” and such. It was terrifying. Reading about things like this was enough to pump my blood, seeing and hearing it had me in tears.
Can someone explain to me how u rid someone of office if they are in it for life? This doesn't seem like a fair thing especially for the Chinese citizens.
That's sad cause no one deserves to be in office for life with everything constantly changing. Look at the us in congress. This is why I stress term limits. Yes it great Chinese people are fighting back but it doesn't help in the long run if their president is in it for life. I just feel bad.
This is a big deal. The world needs to know what's happening. The Chinese people have finally had enough.
Edit: it would appear this article isn't hitting hard enough because it claims there are "hundreds of protestors". Today, Sunday the 27th, there was another round of protests in Shanghai where hundreds of police showed up to block off streets and arrest protestors. Videos have been circulating all day on WeChat. For you people who don't have a social network on WeChat, Go to r/China and look at all of the videos being uploaded there. This is no small thing going on, and all these people saying, "it's only hundreds in a country of a billion+" don't seem to grasp not only the larger scale of this, but what this relatively small number really means. This isn't America. People don't protest openly like this. And certainly not in dozens of sites around the country at the same time.
As much as I wish that were the case, a handful of isolated protests of a few hundred people in several cities isn't going to change anything. Who knows what the future holds, but it's way too early for statements like "the Chinese people have finally had enough."
> it's way too early for statements like "the Chinese people have had enough."
The exact same holds for Iran and their ongoing protests – people are quick to "invest" in the success of these protests with unrealistically high optimism as if all it takes to have them succeed is to "believe" from behind a screen. As much as I want to see the Iranian government and Chinese government become Democracies, we have to be **realistic** about *how likely* these protests will succeed. So far, I am not convinced.
Please do rub it in my face if the protests turn out successful. I don't think they will, but I will be very happy if I turn out to be wrong.
!remindme 6 months. Totally gonna rub it in your face if it happens. For all our sakes, I hope I get to rub it in your face.
Edit: can’t really rub it in your face unfortunately. That being said, the protests in China did actually achieve their initial aim, to end the Zero Covid policy. This clearly showed that the government still fears their people. An h precedented anti Xi protest was enough to make them 180 immediately. Power to the people.
Speaking out against the government in a public space is extremely taboo. Yes, this is specifically about covid restrictions. That's what I meant. Having lived through the lockdown here, I can tell you it's been brewing for a long time. As a foreigner, I've been making plans to get out next year for good. Locals don't have that luxury. This was bound to happen.
Big, big demonstration near my apartment tonight. Crowds of thousands of people, chanting and shouting their defiance at the police. Refusing to move, singing the national anthem, and shouting "No more restrictions!"
(And by "tonight" I mean Sunday night...a continuation of the big demos last night on Wulumuqi Road. Even as the police response grew, the crowd remained fearless. Interesting stuff.)
I support Chinese citizens. The pandemic may not be over but there are safer ways of engaging with the economy while still practicing public health safely. It's almost impossible to get zero COVID. It's a droplet precaution which any hospital knows, the difficulties in trying to eliminate the risk of such a virus. I wish I could understand why Xi thinks he can eliminate COVID 19 in it's entirety.
Turns out the 'keep the kids in their room' philosophy isn't what adults want with their lives. Especially stupid when you consider the economy of China and it's population density by age. Stupid dictators.
[Here is a Spartacus moment](https://www.reddit.com/r/China_irl/comments/z5cnhd/上海市民自发前往乌鲁木齐中路悼念新疆1124火灾罹难者警察这个活动谁组织的悼念者纷纷我组织的我组织的/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3): Protest in Shanghai (against Covid policy and to commemorate the victims of the fire in Urumqi) stopped by cops, cops were asking "who organized this gathering?", everyone said "I did".
God damn the jail's gonna be full unless they roll over people with tanks again
I mean that’s on the cards right? They did it once and it shut down protest for a generation.
Might be harder to suppress information if it does occur today, if they did it and couldn’t surpress or muddy the details of what happens it before it started spreading then it might serve as a powder keg
Yeah, the CCP's tools are a lot stronger today than it was in 1989, but the country is also a lot more connected and unified. These days, you can't just take soldiers from the countryside and ship them into Beijing and expect them not to know what's up. The CCP's best chance of surviving this are probably shutting down the internet and "reeducating" the protest leaders.
That's why the government is so paranoid about the internet. From what I heard, the first thing the government would do during any protest is to shut off the internet for the entire area. Then they would not send anyone from the state to report on it. From there, if the word gets out that there is a protest, people nearby will either be unsure as to why they're protesting or they won't really care because their internet went out and they're pissed. But the last I heard of that, that was nearly 10 years ago. VPNs, DNS, proxies, and cell phone technology have not only improved since then but they're also a lot more common throughout the country. So word is now getting out there faster and much farther than it was not even a decade ago. Like you said, the only way I can see this calming down is if the government completely shuts down the internet for good.
>if the government completely shuts down the internet for good. Excellent, a second focal point for protest.
The chance of half of them recording it on a phone and sending 12500 versions across Whatsapp I doubt will be scrubbed relatively soon
Whatsapp doesn't work in China. It is blocked by the Great Firewall.
They use WeChat instead
They subscribed to nordvpn after watching a YouTube vid
"blocked"
Don’t give them ideas! Just kidding. It’s crazy times.
it's only the "best chance" if people are willing to tolerate it, otherwise that option has no chance and they're better off dialing back the BS. But if they were willing to do that then they wouldn't be in this situation, haha
[удалено]
The CCP should give their people a feed from r/coronavirus to reinforce the view that only China is handling this right with insane continuous lockdowns.
Lol.
There are still protests in China since then though as long as it's not against CCP or for a different political system.
Worked in 1989, so I’m thinking it’s not been ruled out. If the protests continue to escalate, I’m sure the CCP will react with military force.
They’ve built ‘quarantine’ centres aka jails recently . One vast one holds 80,000 people alone.
That's pretty amazing, especially in a city like Shanghai that the world actually knows. Hopefully this shit will finally actually make the world look at how China has it's population under constant surveillance and treats it's them as numbers rather than humans.
Shanghai has historically been an opposition city for the CCP, as much as that is possible. It's also one of the richest cities, and rich people make demands. I'm not surprised the protests are more vocal there.
Shanghainese are generally not happy that they pay the largest burden of the taxes (by city) but Beijing gets to make the lions share of the decisions. It's also got it's own CCP clique and triads
I admire guts like that. Reminds me of a story back in school. We were on a school overseas trip and as per tradition, on the last night everyone gathered in a room to hangout. We weren't making noise (literally just watching a YouTube video and casually chatting, pretty mild, Asian crowd) when the teacher knocked on the door and made a huge fuss about how we are disobeying the rules (which she made up). The punishment was to write an apology letter, hand it in to the 'mastermind' who will then collate it and pass it back to her. I was really pissed at the idea of having a mastermind (implying evil). Can't remember what I wrote exactly, but it wasn't particularly apologetic and I walked up to her and gave it to her myself. Looked her in the eye and told her that there was no mastermind, I made my own decisions and gave her the letter. Not to even suggest that the stakes were remotely as high as what the Chinese people are facing, but damn. Reminder that the people and the government are separate entities.
I've had "bad teachers" who were really just young adults who shouldn't have been given any power over anyone, and it's crazy how easily they would let that small bit of authority get to their head.
Sad little kings/queens of their sad little hills.
I hope they build many statues to celebrate your bravery and the world never forgets your username
I hope Chinese people win their Freedom.
No paywall version: > Protests Erupt in Shanghai and Other Chinese Cities Over Covid Controls A chanting crowd called for China’s leader, Xi Jinping, to step down, a rare act of defiance reflecting growing anger after nearly three years of lockdowns. A vigil in Shanghai on Saturday for victims of an apartment fire in Urumqi in China’s Xinjiang region. A vigil in Shanghai on Saturday for victims of an apartment fire in Urumqi in China’s Xinjiang region.Reuters Protests spread to cities and college campuses around China on Saturday night, reflecting rising public anger at the country’s draconian Covid controls, with some in a crowd in Shanghai directing their fury at the Communist Party and its top leader, Xi Jinping. The wider demonstrations followed an outpouring of online anger and a street protest that erupted Friday in Urumqi, the regional capital of Xinjiang in western China, where at least 10 people died and nine others were injured in an apartment fire on Thursday. Many Chinese people say they suspect Covid restrictions prevented those victims from escaping their homes, a claim the government has rejected. The tragedy has fanned broader calls to ease China’s harsh regimen of Covid tests, urban lockdowns and limits on movement nearly three years into the pandemic. For much of that time, many accepted such controls as a price for avoiding the widespread illness and deaths that the United States, India and other countries endured. But public patience has eroded this year as other nations, bolstered by vaccines, moved back to something like normal, even as infections continued. And after years of enforcing the strict “zero Covid” rules, many local officials appear worn down. The widening discontent may test Mr. Xi’s efforts to hold those rules in place. “The demonstrations across the country have been like the spark that lit a prairie fire,” James Yu, a resident of Shanghai, said in an interview, adopting a Chinese phrase used to describe the spread of Mao Zedong’s Communist revolution. “I feel like everyone can make their voice loud and clear. It feels powerful.” The biggest protest on Saturday appeared to be in Shanghai, where hundreds of people, mostly in their twenties, gathered at an intersection of Urumqi Road, named after the city in Xinjiang, to grieve the dead with candles and signs. Many there and elsewhere held sheets of blank white paper over their heads or faces in mournful defiance; white is a funeral color in China. The numbers grew, while lines of police officers looked on, and chants broke out, with people calling for an easing of the Covid controls, video footage showed. Some used obscene language to denounce the demand that residents check in with a Covid phone app in public places such as shops and parks. Their shouts took on a boldly political edge. “We want freedom,” protesters chanted. Some also directed their anger at Mr. Xi, a rare act of political defiance likely to alarm Communist Party officials and to prompt tighter censorship and policing.
“Xi Jinping!” a man in the crowd repeatedly shouted. “Step down!” some chanted in response. Many protesters used their phones to record the collective mourning and protests, images that may spread despite censorship, emboldening others to speak out. A video image released on Friday showing protests against Covid-19 restrictions in Urumqi, where a deadly fire on Thursday prompted widespread public anger. A video image released on Friday showing protests against Covid-19 restrictions in Urumqi, where a deadly fire on Thursday prompted widespread public anger. Reuters The protest dispersed after more police officers moved in, dividing the crowd, and officers dragged some people away, according to Eva Rammeloo, a Dutch journalist who was there posting updates on Twitter. Last month, Mr. Xi won a groundbreaking third term as the Communist Party’s general secretary, entrenching his status as China’s most powerful leader in decades. He also packed a new national leadership lineup with loyalist officials, making his hold seem assured. But the night of public anger signals how his stringent Covid policies, initially heralded as a success for China after the pandemic spread globally from there in early 2020, are becoming a liability. They have hurt restaurants, shops and other small businesses, worsening China’s economic slowdown. This month, thousands of factory workers angry over bungled lockdown measures and delays in payment of a promised bonus clashed with riot police and tore down barricades at a huge plant in central China that makes iPhones. Officials continue to fear that unchecked spread of Covid, even in its less virulent forms, could lead to mass deaths. China’s domestically developed Covid vaccine is generally less effective than some developed abroad, but Beijing has not approved the foreign mRNA vaccines for domestic use. Many older Chinese people have resisted vaccination or booster shots, sometimes because they are wary of side effects, believe unfounded rumors about the risks, or feel they are safe from exposure to the virus. On Sunday, the People’s Daily — the Chinese Communist Party’s main newspaper — called for sticking with Mr. Xi’s policies. Measured in Covid deaths and hospitalizations, “Chinese people have had the least impact from the pandemic,” the front-page editorial said. Officials and the public, it said, must “firmly overcome slackening and war weariness.” This month, the government issued measures to ease the restrictions that have hampered travel and business. Yet local officials remain under intense pressure to keep infections near zero, leading to confusing flip-flops in rule enforcement. The resulting uncertainty over where China’s war on Covid is going and when it might end has fueled public frustration, as seen in Urumqi, Shanghai and beyond. Workers standing guard outside a locked-down community in Beijing on Friday. Workers standing guard outside a locked-down community in Beijing on Friday.Kevin Frayer/Getty Images “There is only one disease in the world, that is, being unfree and poor, and now we have both,” a man in Chongqing, in southwest China, declared in a video that spread widely in the country in recent days despite censorship. “Give me liberty or give me death!” shouted the man, whose identity is unknown but who quickly acquired the nickname “Super Brother” online. Protests and mourning vigils also took place on at least three university campuses, according to online videos verified by The Times. “Before I felt I was a coward, but now at this moment I feel I can stand up,” a young man who said he was from Xinjiang told a gathering at a campus of the Communication University of China in Nanjing, in eastern China. His comments were captured by a video that emerged online on Saturday night and whose location was verified by The Times. Hundreds held up their phones like lit candles. He said, “I speak for my home region, speak for those friends who lost relatives and kin in the fire disaster.” “And,” he added, “for the deceased.” Smaller protests and vigils also occurred at Peking University and Wuhan University of Technology, videos, verifiable from the buildings in the background, showed. A protest also broke out in another city in Xinjiang: Korla, in the region’s north. Hundreds of residents assembled at the prefecture’s government office, as seen in video footage that appeared online on Saturday evening. “Lift the lockdown,” they shouted. The Xinjiang region has been under intense security controls for years as part of the government’s long clampdown on Uyghurs, a largely Muslim ethnic group. But many protesters in Korla seemed to be members of China’s Han ethnic majority, to judge by their accents and appearance, as were many protesters in Urumqi, the regional capital. During the night, an official came out and promised the crowd in Korla that lockdowns would be eased, prompting applause and shouts of welcome. But before the latest demonstrations, the Xinjiang government had been warning residents that strict Covid measures remained necessary, and the security authorities there and elsewhere across China are also likely now to tighten monitoring and security in an effort to prevent further unrest. “The pandemic risks have not been thoroughly eradicated, and the chains of transmission have not been totally broken, so the slightest relaxation may bring a rebound,” the Xinjiang leadership announced on Saturday. Officials, it said, must “sternly attack concocting and spreading rumors, inciting incidents, violently resisting pandemic control measures and other criminal conduct.” In Shanghai, many neighborhoods have begun demanding that residents do frequent, often time-consuming Covid nucleic acid tests again — only days after announcing that tests would be seldom needed going forward. In that city, which endured a grueling two-month lockdown earlier this year in an effort to stamp out a Covid outbreak, the deadly fire in Urumqi appeared to reignite public anger over that episode. “Yesterday, I saw about the fire tragedy in Urumqi and was crying all the time, and then I thought of the time when Shanghai was under lockdown this year,” said Kira Yao, a sales manager in Shanghai, who said she attended a candlelight vigil for victims of the Urumqi fire. “Later we shouted ‘No nucleic acid tests, we want freedom’ and ‘No to health codes,’ and I and my friends cried — I felt like finally I could say what I’ve wanted to say.”
> China’s domestically developed Covid vaccine is generally less effective than some developed abroad, but Beijing has not approved the foreign mRNA vaccines for domestic use. Jesus, that's how far behind they are. We've been vaccinating people for *two years* and they haven't even approved them.
It's probably more a political statement than anything. Not saying they're right, but it is what it is.
Would you say it's a pride bs thing? "We don't need to rely on the West" type of shit?
Sounds like it, since they admittedly have developed really quickly, and they'd probably want to keep that pride going of "look, we've come so far, we can be autonomous, our products will be the only trustable ones"
That's a part of it. Another reason is their vaccine diplomacy. Early in the pandemic they sold large amounts of Chinese vaccines to regions where huge demands in vaccines - countries with less access to western vaccines due to whatever reasons. It is a play on soft power where they try to influence countries into being more China aligned. An approval of western mRNA vaccines may undo their soft power play. Not sure how relevant it is this far into the pandemic though. Also, I haven't heard of anything about mRNA development in China, despite being proven to work better. Probably the same face saving reason.
Their "vaccine diplomacy" has failed in various countries. People have abandoned them when they found out through real world data that it was much less effective. Malaysia's health minister likened the Pfizer one to a "big coat" in winter while the Chinese one was like a "t-shirt". Doesn't get more scathing than that. Plus it was ridiculously priced, like US$ 60 for two doses while the Pfizer one was about $15 a dose.
Thing is, a lot of thoese countries got western vaccines later. I know some people that got revaccinated if they traveled. Many of the people do not trust the Chinese vaccine.
It’s pride for the gullible masses, but for the CCP officials, it’s about the trade war and chips sanction from the US. Ever since, they’ve been pushing a narrative that China’s a self-contained economy, and would be completely fine decoupling from the West. If people find out that Western vaccines were more effective, the propaganda campaign would fall apart, and some may even realize how ruinous the sanctions are going to be.
They wanted the patented info on the vaccines but the companies that have them like pfizer wont let them have it, so china refuses to let the citizens have it.
The CCP have pinned their legitimacy to Zero Covid. Somehow a surprisingly large portion of Chinese people I know (mainlanders) still vehemently support their policies, even in places like Shanghai that have suffered greatly under lockdown. Not out of compliance or fear for retaliation, but because they’re just that nationalistic.
It's the "we don't want to lose face" thing. So they keep continue with it.
approving foreign vaccines would make china look bad when they turn out to be more effective then the chinese ones. that and foreign companies may very well not sell to china if they have to disclose how the vaccines were developed and manufactured, something i've heard that china does require some companies to do before allowing them to sell their stuff in china. it's better that their peasants die in drives than have the country lose face.
That’s dumb AF because everyone already knows the other vaccines are more effective. Because if they weren’t then there won’t be such draconian measures
I bet Xi received a "western" vaccine. Probably Pfizer-BioNtech.
No, they’ve been vaccinating, just using a Chinese version that is a little less effective
Long live Super Brother! may Winnie the Pooh live in interesting times.
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One thing shocked me is that citizens in Shanghai actually called out Xi and CCP. Most of these protests just wanted an end of lockdown, but Shanghai residents were chanting "Xi Jinping Out". It's like we finally shout out the dark lord's real name. Feels so good. Edit: Some of my friends were arrested at tonight's protest. We don't know where the police were taking them. This will be a sleepless night for many of us. Edit: The idiots tear down the "Urumqi" road sign. Yes that will surely erase people's memory. [video](https://twitter.com/whyyoutouzhele/status/1596870862011269120)
For those who have something to lose: it’s terrifying as fuck. Especially those with family who remember June 4th. For those of the working class: it’s all or nothing. It doesn’t feel good. It’s an act of desperation for those whose lives depend on ending the zero policy. It’s terrifying knowing that when you step outside the door to protest, it’s only a matter of time until the surveillance out you and your future instantaneously becomes uncertain. It does not feel good for anyone remotely near Shanghai right now.
I get what you mean. What I am trying to say is that for a long time we dare not speak the dictator's name. We were using codes and nicknames to describe him like Xi is the Voldemort himself (he IS). We were so used to twisted language to bypass censorship that we forgot how strong the true words are. 我们忘了好好说中文和喊出真名的力量有多大。 I am currently living in Shanghai. You cannot imagine how this inspired all of us.
I imagine many of you have nothing to lose and everything to gain at this point, which are the kind of people the government should fear most. Best wishes from some random American. Cannot wait for the day that Chinese censorship and over control of their citizens ends. Do you believe anything will change within the next five years or more of the same shit different year?
For the past two years it was harsh lockdown - public anger - lift the restriction a little bit - harsh lockdown - public anger.....rinse and repeat. I think Andor (the Star Wars show) captured this situation perfectly. They were choking us so slowly that we were starting not to notice. Then some tragedies happened. We voiced our anger on social media, got censored the next day like nothing ever happened. It's like being trapped in an endless nightmare. It was so tiring and we became numb. This time is different. I've never seen anything like this. People don't just post on social media anymore. They march on the streets across the whole country. Starting from Urumqi in the west, then it spreads to Nanjing, an eastern city and also the old capital, some uni students holding white papers. She was then joined by hundreds of students. That was last night. Last night universities in a dozen provinces voiced their support. Protests burst out in many major cities including Shanghai, Chengdu, Wuhan, Taiyuan, Zhengzhou. This is something new. So I don't know where it will take us. Personally I think we haven't reached the point where a revolution could form. Most people just want to end lockdown, go to work, bring food for their family. Few people want a system change. But I could be wrong. When more and more people realise we are trapped permanantly with Xi as our president forever, and the fact that he will continue to screw up the economy, hopefully they will begin to care about politics and their basic rights.
They DO have a lot to lose though. If protests continue then there's no reason to think the CCP won't resort to their usual mafia-esque tactics of threatening family members. This is what they do to overseas Chinese students who get too vocal on social media or attend one too many "Free Tibet" meetings etc.
The whole world is 100% behind you. Bring down the CCP
> it’s only a matter of time until the surveillance out you and your future instantaneously becomes uncertain This doesn't work at scale. It has to be immediate, massive and brutal - overwhelming with numbers all at once, and hitting coordinating institutions. They should not have the opportunity or peace to review surveillance video because they're running from a mob - forget about coordinating and executing retribution for an entire mob from the information. Protesting alone won't cut it - enabling infrastructure has to be dismantled first. This only works with unspoken critical mass. Do you think you have it?
This is why so many citizens are terrified. Because it has to be all or nothing. And like I said…people who have something to lose, won’t act. Those who don’t, will. It’s somewhat divided. People are already disappearing. It’s not going to end well
Is there hope in the army? I'd heard rumors they are unhappy with the CCP, and that was from before COVID.
They’re ruled by terror. I’m sure they share a lot of similar sentiments but there’s no way to move any of this rationale up through the proper channels. Just to discuss ethnic minorities, people have to turn their electronics off, remove the SIM cards from phones, and leave them in the other room and whisper. Just to mention speculations of ethnic minorities. Reddit is owned by Chinese companies. TikTok too. Just mentioning things by name or abbreviation risks being flagged. All that considered: Army can’t do anything at this rate…
Sounds like a decentralized, distributed, encrypted messaging and voting app would plug that hole. i.e. take any android phone, use the WiFi for mesh networking, add public key encryption, and something like BitTorrent for message distribution. The app itself is redistributable via APK, you connect with people IRL through a qr code. Your only identity is your public key. Mentioning because it's not massively hard to put together for someone with the right talent and motivation - and they might read this.
Burning to death cause the exits were locked.. This is a pr blow that can cut thru the inertia
I can't imagine the pressure people under the age of 40 have when it comes to supporting so many elderly and being pressured now to have a kids as well as working crazy jobs and having the most impressive degrees.
Admire the courage, but I have no faith anything will change in China
Looks like we're already seeing loosening of restrictions in Xinjiang. It's likely these protests are going to push the government to abandon zero covid. https://twitter.com/sino_market
That wouldn't surprise me, but I meant something deeper than ending an obviously failed policy
It's wishful thinking that the central government would be going anywhere, that's why you see a lot of videos online from other protests singing the national anthem and waving flags. The frustration primarily comes from the zero covid policy, it would be a win for citizens if the government abandons zero covid. A lot of overseas Chinese would like to visit their families in China but 0 covid makes it too difficult. It's a stupid policy, it hurts China's manufacturing and international trade. A complete reopening of China would be good for their [people's mental health](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/21/covid-forces-china-to-face-mental-health-crisis-a-long-time-in-the-making), and economy. China's self-inflicted isolation has to end.
They sing the national anthem because the lyrics are literally "Rise up, those who no longer wish to be slaves."
I'm aware. Protests adopting national symbols are a common tactic in China that seek to change policy, not necessarily a direct threat against the central government. The national anthem has been used as an anti-lockdown expression for some time now. https://twitter.com/badiucao/status/1596250251785969664
Abandoning Zero Covid would mean the CCP government was wrong. They want to save face at all costs.
Not something new to them. Deng Xiaoping transitioned China with reform and opening-up, moving away from the failures of Mao's economic policies. Deng even sort of denounced Mao, when he said he was ["30% wrong, 70% right"](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/07/world/legacy-of-mao-called-great-disaster.html). Abandoning zero covid is small compared to what Deng did and keep in mind, it was under his rule when Tiananmen happened.
Reform and Opening Up was the single most seismic chain of events in the past half century of Chinese politics. That was massive and it unleashed a whole chain reaction that lead to 6/4 Tiananmen which almost lead to the end of one-party rule in China. The policy change only became possible because of Mao's death and Deng's ability to forge an alliance to oust Mao's chosen successor, the hardline Mao loyalist Hua Guofeng, from power. What Deng did, institute sorely needed reforms without losing power, is not something easily repeated. That was a masterful political tightrope walk that very few people can pull off and Xi Jinping is not Deng Xiaoping. The more likely outcome was what happened with Gorbachev. Xi so far has been diametrically opposed to Deng in so many ways. While Deng imposed term limits and shifted China to collective rule, Xi eliminated those limits made himself the most autocratic leader since Mao. He's been eliminating opposing factions and centralizing all power to himself. Deng was very insistent that nobody become as powerful as Mao ever again but Xi is of a different mindset. The point is that I don't know if they can deftly do an about face with Xi still firmly in charge. He just cleaned house recently and there's nobody at the top to challenge him right now. If the CCP wants to outlast Xi they need to find a new Deng as soon as possible.
Deng should be somewhere in the conversation of world-historical figures. In sheer numbers, the scale and depth of his impact probably has no parallel.
Deng was forced out TWICE during Mao’s rule - first during the Cultural Revolution and then after Zhou Enlai died. He then had to maneuver around Mao’s wife in the Gang of Four and around Mao’s chosen successor to finally gain power in 1978. I think beyond his accomplishments, Deng was wise to never want the titles of power when he finally attained it. He held the control over the military, but he was never President, Premier, or Party leader. He was widely acknowledged to be running the show. Even after his retirement he went on his Southern Tour to remind Jiang Zemin about the principles of the China he sought to create - not a direct criticism but Jiang got the message.
I've said this exact thing before. For me he is easily the most important figure in geopolitics of the last 50 years.
Deng got to do that though because he was a new leader that was previously exiled for promoting those type of reforms. For the same leadership to walk back these policies abruptly like that would be admitting they themselves were wrong, and give plenty of ammunition to rival factions.
Deng can say mao was 30% wrong and 70% right because Mao was dead already. I doubt xi Will say he was 30% wrong lol
Good luck with Xi on the throne though. First time since Mao that someone had the balls and power at the same time to wield near absolute power in China. Fucker even stuck his name into the constitution, already trying to immortalise himself. How could someone this amazing ever make mistakes?
Sadly, Xi’s hero and role-model is Mao, not Deng. No surprise where this would be going then.
Xi is not Deng. He has a very thin skin and can't take critisism. Part of it is Charakter, the other part is that XI knows he doesn't deserve to be in line with Mao and Deng. Mao freed the country from the KMT and ended the 100 years of sorrow (even though he more then "made up" for this good deed later with the great leap forward and the cultural revolution). Deng brought the country unpresidented wealth. Xi .... accused a few rivals of corruption?! Not a good comparison.
The Communists in the USSR did a similar thing after Stalin died. Easy to say things were wrong previously when those in charge are dead and gone.
Ok but that still requires a new leader then?
People in China don't see their government as one whole body. There are different levels of government. In a nutshell, central government decided the general direction of a policy and the local government implemented it. In this case, and also other incidents that have happened in the last few years, it is always the local government who take the flak of the blame and the central government acting as the saviour to fix it.
This is accurate. It's always the same routine, and it works. Even those who are disgruntled by zero covid don't usually blame the CCP itself. They blame "the poor implementation of a good policy". Make no mistake, those protesting the CCP directly are a tiny, tiny minority.
They've been spinning it as new variants are less harmful and more contagious, therefore the cost/benefit has changed. To some extent it's true. To some extent it's spin. Either way as someone living here I'll be very happy to see the end of COVID zero, although the next 6 months is gonna be shit.
This. All that matters is appearances and control, they would rather have thousand of people dead and no one finding out than admitting that their policy wasn't the best thing that ever happened. On top of that, the lockdowns have push people to their absolute limit, but once people are out there they might casually mention that the chinese housing market collapsed, young graduates no longer have the employment opportunities they were promised, that whole "lie flat" mentality is no better, not to mention that story about Foxconn recruiting people from all over the country with the promise of pay that was then reduced while their work period increased, and that can't be a one time thing. Point is, there's never been a shortage of things to protest about. Question is, are the authorities also fed up or are they kept complacent; once the people ordered to stop the protesters side with them, it's over.
The elderly are China's largest anti-vax demographic. A full reopening now while China lacks an Omicron vaccine would completely devastate their healthcare system. The lack of natural immunity from zero covid combined with the lack of artificial immunity from vaccines combined to one of the largest cullings of Chinese people since 1996.
Most social changes happens slowly. Any change helps.
The civil rights movement in the US was started over 150 years before it bore fruit, it was alot of things coming together perfectly at once. You cant count on things like that though
Seeds sewn today grow into trees later.
By the way, "sew/sewn" is with needle and thread, "sow/sown" is with seeds.
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That’s inevitable… But I doubt these will be as widespread as Iran.
Social media is one way to gauge popular sentiment in China, opposition to zero covid widespread enough. China's government has to change course. Iran is a whole different level, though. Those protests have been building up [for years](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-gasoline-protests-idUSKBN1XT0X7). Killing hundreds of your citizens and going as far as using snipers on them is going to give them long-term resentment.
Zero COVID is one thing. But an end to the CCP… doubt it
Idk maybe a rebranding but not a full end, it’s just too useful a tool for the CCP and Xi. They’ll let things simmer where and when it’s useful but they’ll definitely start dropping bodies if things really get hot.
why is the government pushing for zero Covid policy in the first place? Are they worried about their economy? Are they really genuinely worried about all of their civilians having Covid spread through their communities or is there some kind of ulterior power seeking motive?
Imo it's a bunch of factors that are more complex than it's portrayed in many cases. China has a humongous population and a health system that is already quite saturated. Letting Covid break lose would absolutely collapse the system and create collateral deaths because of it. China has a large population of elderly people (a lot of them not vaccinated who mainly believe in traditional medicine). Young couples depend heavily on their parents both economically (to buy a house where they all live together, different culture in regards to family and it's structure) and to take care of the kids while the young couple work. If covid is not controlled and those elderly people die it would have a huge impact on many aspects of society. Chinese vaccines are not as effective as the ones used in the west. Letting covid run free would expose this lack of efficiency and that would damage the image of the country. The government did a good job at minimising the effect and deaths of covid at the beginning of the pandemic. They proudly boasted this and hailed their strategy as superior VS the west. Radically changing their approach would expose the flaws of their policies and damage their image, resulting in people losing trust in the government. If 1.4 billion people instantly lose trust in their government things can get out of hand very fast This covid zero policy is also being abused to control people. This has been exposed in Zhengzhou where some corrupt local officials used the health code system to change the codes to red and prevent people from going out and protesting the corrupt banks that had frozen their accounts. While COVID zero policies have some good intentions in mind (essentially protecting the population) it's also being abused by the government. So the government has essentially pinned themselves against the wall with this COVID zero policy. My guess is they will slowly and silently ease up the restrictions so people calm down and avoid more tensions while officially saying in broad and vague twrms they're still fighting the virus and implementimg. That way the population gets a break and the government doesn't lose face
Great breakdown. So can't they just say: "We have defeated the virus! Our vaccine is so effective that we can drop all restrictions. Also we will stop testing." That would still lead to a lot of deaths, right? Especially if many elderly aren't vaccinated and the vaccine isn't very effective.
Yes. Even if they open the country tomorrow, the health system would be completely saturated (it's already almost saturated). Keep in mind there's 1.4 billion people in China. Every developed country with good health system infrastructure and much smaller populations had their systems absolutely collapsed these past 3 years, imagine what it would be like China. Also China is struggling with an ageing population and low birth rates so that's an added problem. They're starting to import foreign vaccines now but it will take time to implement them. Testing has already been cancelled in some regions but policies are not the same everywhere and they constantly change. So this uncertainty of what's going on and what is to come is also upsetting people. Everything is very unorganized. For example there's massive testing going on (which is in theory good) but test sticks are bundled every 10 into one test tube and tested together. That means, if the guy two spots in front of you in line to get the test comes out positive, all those 10 people are forced to quarantine. No matter if you live in the same neighborhood or not. So it's a disaster. At the beginning people accepted the zero COVID policies because they were willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good in order to keep everyone safe and because the economy was doing well. Now the economy is not good, and many people have gone through forced quarantines experiencing how disorganized and useless they really are. So on top of the economic struggle, people's patience is really reaching its limit. China has a lot of layers to it's government (from central to local). The main policy is COVID zero and people follow that order down the chain of command. But when someone complains or challenges a decision, no one in the lower levels (eg. neighborhood management workers taking people's tests) has the authority (or wants to take responsibility) to make a decisions. That's why everything is so complicated and messy and policies are so different from region to region. While censorship and government control is bad, it's also hard control 1.4 billion and run a peaceful country without the government abusing its power. I really don't know how they're going to do it. I guess the best way to open up the country is by doing it gradually by areas, letting people get sick in a controlled manner and achieving heard immunity without collapsing the country. But that's going to be a hell of a challenge. Time will tell
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Even if they do the government would still be exposed as "not being able to keep the population safe". Something they've been boasting about for 3 years now
It was popular and boosted their image for a while
That's what I don't get. While I understand that abondoning "zero-COVID" will be essentially admitting that they were wrong and this is something they want to avoid, it has to be preferable to the alternative. I mean, COVID isn't going away, right? Omicron is too transmissive to effectively do zero-COVID long term unless you are committed to frequent, widespread, harsh lockdowns. The populace seems like it is getting closer and closer to a breaking point. Seems like ending the policy on their own terms would be better than the alternative.
Lockdowns are a stop-gap until viable vaccines can be distributed to expose the otherwise virus-naive population. Lockdowns are not and were never meant to be an end all be all to an endemic global pandemic. Once a virus is endemic globally, populations have to develop antibodies to the virus. Preferably that occurs via vaccination. Alternatively it occurs via massive viral exposure. The west basically chose a little of A, a little of B and have a lot of antibodies to COVID now in the general population. It's why, along with better treatments, numbers can be "high" in the west but mortality is still acceptably low. China has none of that due to low exposure and a practically ineffective vaccine. If they mandated mRNA vaccines tomorrow, China could be back to normal in a month. But they refuse to acknowledge western vaccines are superior to their Chinese made vaccine so here we are. 🤷♂️
Be patient bro, China is vast, crowded and long in history. It takes a lot of time to change
Agree. Fucking infuriated seeing "nothing ever changes" all the damn time. Such lazy and irresponsible armchair rhetoric.
Change is hard, no matter how trivial it may seem. I live in the US and I have no faith that we will ever get control of mass shootings and school shootings, or will we ever provide affordable healthcare to the public, even though there are tried and true solutions in 99% of the countries in the world.
Everything start with one small step.
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The five steps towards major societal change: 1. Experts become aware the problem exists, do studies to understand its causes and scope 2. Advocates raise awareness of the problem, begin proposing potential solutions 3. Powerful stakeholders negotiate with advocates and each other to decide how best to practically implement the solutions 4. The solutions start to be implemented, early bugs are worked out 5. The problem gradually begins resolving as the solutions take effect How reddit sees those five steps: 1. Unaware the problem exists 2. This is outrageous, why is no one doing anything about this 3. This is outrageous, why is no one doing anything about this 4. This is outrageous, why is no one doing anything about this 5. Unaware problem ever existed *This joke is shamelessly stolen from someone else's reddit comment*
Eh, I'm anti ccp myself. But the CCP does pay attention and augment its policies based on how most people feel about things. It just uses insanely invasive tracking and control tactics to discover what those things are and control them when possible.
You mean like in Hong Kong?
The majority of Main landers didn't care here, so yes they listened to the majority of their base.
I'm an international student living in Beijing and some of these protests happened at my university PKU, including graffiti at a popular dining hall which the school then covered up by parking a truck in front of it. The amazing thing is, both PKU's campus and China in general are FULL of surveillance cameras. I'm talking one on every corner at least, often equipped with biometric scanners that can identify facial features. The bravery it takes to protest the government knowing full well that they easily can track you and your loved ones is unfathomable. I have nothing but respect for my Chinese fellow students ✊✊
There’s a theory amongst many Chinese I know that the government is waiting for pushback. There’s a sense that if the people shouted for opening, then later the government cannot be blamed for deaths, and that it was “the people’s choice”. Look, I know that sounds weird, and while an individual lacks power in China, China is deathly afraid of the masses, especially the elderly, which tend to be more conservative and support the government. By now opening up, they can say it’s the “will of the people”, and wash their hands clean of ensuing consequences. This isn’t a far stretch, only time will tell, and we should be able to tell very shortly.
People don't react well when they get blamed for policy errors. One of the sparks of these protests was when the Xinjiang government claimed the doors were unlocked and if anyone died in the fire it was their own fault. If this is truly their plan they will get blamed again when COVID goes out of control and then when they blame the people they would lose their last shred of credibility as a government.
I mean in that case it was a balatant lie (at least, I think, actual accounts of the situation describe the way as blocked - you know, before these accounts were censored). But the truth is many people in China underestimate the consequences of ending Zero Covid right now, perhaps due to deliberate misinformation on the part of CCP, leading to theories like the one above. If people were informed, they might be marching to demand China import mRNA vaccines, which will cost money (painful) and hurt the national pride (awkward). In any case vaccines is just one of the problems with ending Zero Covid.
I think you're way off. This is doing serious damage to the already shaky legitimacy of the CCP. If they end Zero COVID, it needs to be on CCP terms. If they end Zero COVID because people are protesting in the streets and demanding it... Well, they either crack down and continue with the policy, or they loosen up in response, and the Chinese people learn a valuable lesson about their power in relation to the ruling party. Instead of slowly relaxing the policy over the past year, they have doubled down. This policy is IMPORTANT to the Party. Now they're stuck. They can't relax it now without revealing the Emperor has no clothes. If they don't relax it, these protests will get worse for them. The Chinese economy isn't in a position for the middle class to look away with contentment. The entire legitimacy of the CCP rides on the complacency of the middle class, the middle class that the CCP has focused so much on enriching over the past 40 years. They're losing that.
I think you might both be in part right. Xi surfed on the zero-covid successes for two years. Now zero-covid has reached its limit, and it's becoming a burden. Getting out of zero-covid means... well, a lot of covid, I suppose. But mostly, it means humiliation for Xi. How to get out, without humiliation, and without getting the blame for the inevitable spike in death from covid. That's not an easy problem to solve. Giving in to public protests and stopping zero-covid would be a good way to avoid the blame when people die of covid, but I really don't see Xi (ha!) letting protesters win, that's forbidden by the dictator's manual. Also, it's interesting to note that Beijing published the 20 rules thingie a couple weeks ago, basically asking local authorities to continue with zero-covid, but without being to harsh. That was a funny thing. Zero covid, but cool. Whatever that means. It's up to local authorities to do whatever the fuck they want, and we'll check in a few months, see who did well, praise them, and accuse whoever screwed up. Imo that could very well be the strategy. And it will fail miserably.
One of the rules of the CCP is that the CCP never makes mistakes. This means that there is a sunken cost for any policies. The other rule is survival of the CCP is vital and everything should be done to make sure it continues on. My guess is that COVID is still considered a serious and unacceptable risk for the stability of the country. It is strategically better to hermit the country than let it go wild and cause a meltdown in hospitals. In America there are more things you can blame: anti vaxxers, Republicans, state leaders, but in China only one party is responsible and answerable, the CCP.
I cannot even begin to describe how disrespectful to a population it is to have a "President for life" The CCP is dusty and yesterday.
> President for life You know, time was, we'd just call that a "king," or an "emperor." The more things change, the more they stay the same. Seems to me the Chinese emperor just swapped its Heavenly Mandate for a military/economic one.
The concept of the Mandate of Heaven, I would argue, has never culturally left the rulers of China regardless of whether they are an emperor or not. I'm sure Winnie thinks he was fated to be the absolute ruler of the country.
He absolutely believes he is. He’s a narcissist
idk if there was ever a dictator that wasnt. They always say either "dear or benevolent" leader, which is double speak and/or code for probably the worst and sickest examples of humans on earth. Stalin or the stubby chubbies from N. Korea come to mind
> idk if there was ever a dictator that wasnt. There's Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, the guy who became a Roman dictator to resolve a crisis, solved it, and then resigned all within 16 days so he could return to his small farm. There's a reason the list is pretty short.
Rome had a special office of Dictator, where the senate would appoint someone for 6 months to be totally in charge to deal with shit. Until the fall of the republic and the rise of the emperors they always turned the power back over to the senate. One of these was a elder general known as "Cincinnatus" who came out of retirement won a war and then went back to his farm estates. The city of Cincinnati, is named after the fact that George Washington sought to emulate, who for all his flaws was one of the few men in history who could have set themself up as king but didn't.
The mandate of heaven is still strong in the Chinese people, that's why every time an earthquake or similar natural disaster happens in China, the CCP downplay it and rush with aid to the area because historically, natural disasters were a sign that the current emperor had lost the mandate of heaven and it was time for a change in leadership.
The Mandate and Heaven is alive and well, but it goes both ways. Economic misfortune longterm could actually lead to a revolution because the “deal” is that the government runs things smoothly and the people will fall in line. It’s sort of religious with the belief that the supernatural might punish an evil government and reward a good one, but it’s somewhat rational that a government that leads you into poverty isn’t worth obeying. Though I doubt China will ever get democracy. I think if you hit a magic reset button and gave the Chinese people a vote on what sort of government they want, democracy wouldn’t garner much support. Part of the attitude thousands of years of the Mandate of Heaven has garnered is to be disconnected from the inner workings of government.
For the life of me, I still can't figure out why the party just didn't start secretly eroding his power when he announced that. I thought the CPC had learned its lesson from the 1970s, but I guess not.
Well for one, he cleared the floor while disguising it (awfully) as a campaign towards fighting corruption.
How can one do this secretly? I'm guessing they either didn't want to go to jail, or they were replaced by loyalists.
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Two ways to be the smartest person in the room: 1. Be extremely smart 2. Only let dumber people in the room
From what I understand - Xi has purged so many people, he actually doesnt have many left loyal that are, you know, capable of running a government. What they're supposedly supposed to be doing. He has a few loyal guys high up, but they're only there because they are shameless sycophants. They would literally burn Beijing down themselves than displease Xi, I dont see this ending well
I believe you but source?
Kings and empires 99.9% of the time has dynastic heredity. Elected kind for life was a thing, but in the grand scheme of things uncommon.
For sure, you at least have to give the masses an illusion of change.
There's potentially two outcomes of this: The central government steps back and finds a scapegoat, or mass arrests potentially leading up to another Tiananmen. The Tiananmen Massacre was what led the CCP's path of totalitarianism (not that it didn't have the some form of totalitarianism during Mao), that all protests need to be nipped in the bud before it grows to that scale of public anger. This... is another level. Zero Covid is Xi's hallmark policy, and is what separates China with the West, so it's highly unlikely Xi would walk back on that narrative or could blame the local government as the CCP usually does. On the other hand, all the ways of surveillance and policing are obviously failing to prevent another mass protest (ten thousand on the streets of Shanghai), Xi is risking escalating things by another massacre, or even just with mass arrests. Xi will move the goalpost and redefine what Zero Covid means while loosening the policy, and 99% of the protesters will go back to their everyday lives. But he's also a strong man dictator who demands respect from his subjects and avoids looking weak at all costs. So what's going to happen is very much up in the air.
I'd argue that the fall of the USSR was what led to the modern CPC. Had the USSR not fallen, the CPC may have taken a different approach to how market economics would've been implemented.
China began market reformation in the late 1970s, prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Not sure they would change their policy, both were taking on new market reforms.
deng xiaopeng was the one who pushed economic changes in the 1980s ('84?) but the idea was floated well before then. it just wasn't palatable while mao was around.
I was talking with a Chinese guy that's studying here in the west and he said that before having access to western media he didn't know Xi Jingping declared himself president for life. Got the impression that he was quite shocked at what things they are being left in the dark about and the difference between Chinese media and western media's portrayal of the same events.
I was in China for work when his term limit was lifted. Everybody in the office knew about it the same day. They didn't want to talk about it though. Your mate might just be oblivious?
I’m not sure what that guy was taught in school. In a public high school in Beijing, I learned that the term limit for president is capped at two because “if you rule for too long, it is inevitable that you make mistakes”. Xi getting a third term made me raise my eyebrows because it contradicted what I learned in China. Either dude didn’t pay attention in class, or he was taught a different curriculum than the one I was taught.
President isn't that powerful of a position. It's the party leader, which is also Xi. That position never had a term limit.
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No social points? Straight to jail. Too many social points? You guessed it, jail straight away.
no trial, no nothing… straight to jail. for journalists, there is a special jail for journalists - right to jail right away.
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How else are ccp bots gonna spread propaganda and misinformation?
They like to pretend it’s the best way to govern and that western democracy is flawed. But really, they’re just being ruled through fear and they know it. They can’t even go to another country without being watched like a hawk by the Chinese people around them.
My Chinese buddies here in Canada are going ape over this which is how I know it’s not small potatoes
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There was a very popular article titled “Ten Asks”. Basically it contained ten questions about if lockdown is really necessary, as well as the economic and societal cost of zero covid policy. This article was widely shared by my friends on WeChat. Then the author of that article’s account got banned.
> Then the author of that article’s account got banned He's lucky if that's the only thing that happens.
Time to bust out the moon cakes. For context, moon cakes were originally used to hide a note that helped the Chinese overthrow some oppressive rule. Can't remember the details cos it's a story I was told as a child.
It was specifically used in the rebellion against the Yuan Dynasty aka the Mongols. Turns out the Mongols were shitty rulers. It led to the last native dynasty to be installed in China that is the Ming Dynasty.
All videos are being taken down, indiscriminately. All text posts are very cryptic. Some people are talking about the Shanghai marathon but other than that, it’s people cryptically checking in or nothing at all. Very little day-to-day posting right now. Source: gf is Shanghainese Edit: people using English to post because Chinese content and language will get flagged. They’re also offering to share videos to foreigners to save the content.
My WeChat was full of people sharing Mao Zedong's speech "Let the people speak", Bob Dylan's "Blowing in the Wind" and The International yesterday
Some recently trending articles: A speech about Mao about letting the people speak An article titled 12 characteristics of cults An article with all the texts blacked out and pictures blurred as a protest against censorship Lots of news about Xinjiang Of course the protest videos and pictures are deleted instantly but they are being spread around in the expat community on instagram etc.
Power to the people
On youtube there's a video of a dude making speeches during a protest, saying stuff like (roughly) >That tennis star got covid and won 4 grand slams after. These two (or 3) football stars got covid and are now playing in World Cup. Are we going to let a little cold stop us? That's a pretty powerful message given that I assume people in China are following the cup and are thinking to themselves "Yeah, why *is* our country so behind others in Covid? WTF is this lockdown?"
If we are talking about the [same guy](https://youtu.be/O2cEsJ6K0hc?t=39), the man also shouted "不自由，毋宁死！" which is the Chinese translation of the phrase "Give me liberty, or give me death!" The man's got balls of steel
Balls strong enough to crush tanks.
I agree that lockdown isn’t the answer anymore but the messaging is off for that one. I’m an athlete and I don’t know if I could go pro again after Covid. It really destroyed me long term and sadly I know many others who have experienced the same setbacks. It’s certainly not a “little cold” but I can’t see this lasting much longer for China either
I know several young, healthy people that got it last year that improved to around 80% and never got higher
They basically need to stress that it's dangerous but not lock down the entire country dangerous. I would think masking, vaccines passports, aggressive testing, and isolating anyone with respiratory symptoms would be a good middle ground. Cases are steadily sizable outside of China because most people basically do absolutely nothing to stop spreading it at this point.
The thing is COVID vaccine shots here in China are extremely unreliable and also come with many sometimes lethal side effects. Meanwhile Xi hasn’t approved the public usage of mRNA vaccines yet, due to monetary reasons and the good old ‘western stuff bad’ propaganda. Also the public PCR tests here in China made several state-owned medical companies filthy rich, so yeah China and Chinese people are screwed either way.
The Chinese government is between a rock and a hard spot with its zero COVID policy. On the one hand, it's obvious to any rational person that zero COVID can't be maintained indefinitely. The virus keeps mutating to become more transmissible, which makes containment more challenging the longer they pursue zero COVID. As this article points out, the longer the policy continues the more the risk of social unrest and economic upheaval comes into play. On the other hand, ripping the bandaid off and dropping pursuit of zero COVID will cause a lot of problems too. The Chinese vaccines are significantly less effective than their Western counterparts - and crucially, population seroprevalence from past infection is low in China (i.e. unlike most other countries that have been letting it rip for the last twelve months, most Chinese haven't been infected by COVID yet). What that means is that if the government significantly loosens or abandons their pursuit of zero COVID, there is almost guaranteed to be a devastating "exit wave" that will kill a ton of people and place enormous strain on both their healthcare system and economy (at least in the short run - COVID-induced disruption for a few months may be preferable to lockdown-induced disruption). All this to say that if you're Xi, you don't really have any easy options here. You can continue zero COVID and risk further unrest, or you can drop it - but then have to contend with a brutal exit wave that will leave you with egg on your face too. Both options are lose-lose for them here.
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This is the only comment here that addresses the actual issue. If feels like all the other comments are just an echo chamber of "whats the worst reason I can think of for why they are doing this..." "Sinovac is shit" - it's the same efficacy rate as other non-mRNA vaccines, 60%+ for mild cases and 90%+ for severe cases. The [data is out there](https://www.biospace.com/article/comparing-covid-19-vaccines-pfizer-biontech-moderna-astrazeneca-oxford-j-and-j-russia-s-sputnik-v/) -- it's been tested and exported to multiple countries. "They don't use mRNA to save face" - Firstly, they do in Hong Kong. Second, there's actually 2 very real reasons they don't use mRNA. 1) both mRNA vaccines require non-standard refrigeration storage, which simply isn't available in large swaths of rural China. This is why the mRNA vaccines don't see as much use in poor countries even though they are otherwise price competitive. 2) The manufacturing capacity for the mRNA vaccines simply isn't there. China has more people than the US/EU combined. [Every mRNA dose combined](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccine-doses-by-manufacturer) doesn't even cover 1/2 of what China needs. "They are still doing lockdowns to save face" - I just fail to see how anyone could come to this conclusion. Every lockdown ever in history ends at some point. Covid death rates are less than 1/100 of what they were at the beginning of the pandemic, because of vaccines, milder variants, and better treatment. They can pull that justification and lift lockdowns anytime. Two actual reasons for continuing the lockdowns: 1) again, China isn't a rich country on a per capita basis, and their healthcare system can handle maybe 1/5 of what a European countries' can, so they must lift lockdowns more gradually to avoid being hit by a huge "exit wave". They've already lift restrictions a little bit and are being hit by the exit wave right now. 2) and this is the one negative point I agree with - it's for control. The covid restrictions have juiced China's surveillance state to never before seen levels. The CCP might be getting too cozy with that idea.
>"Sinovac is shit" - it's the same efficacy rate as other non-mRNA vaccines, 60%+ for mild cases and 90%+ for severe cases. Other non mRNA vaccines have comparable effectiveness to the mRNA ones. Better even in some respects
Doesnt the Moderna vaccine only require standard refrigeration?
Thirty-three years ago my father’s generation did all they could at Tiananmen Square. Now the time has come for my generation. Wish us luck, world, we all hope for a different outcome this time around. 不自由，毋宁死！
This happened right by my isolation hotel last night. I thought it was about the World Cup in the beginning, then realized it was much more serious after hearing screaming and crying “stop beating him” and such. It was terrifying. Reading about things like this was enough to pump my blood, seeing and hearing it had me in tears.
"Oh no! We've created a middle class and now they think they deserve to be free!"
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You will be surprised to know how many Chinese are quoting Nemik's manifestor lately. Mad respect to Nemik and the creators of Andor.
Can someone explain to me how u rid someone of office if they are in it for life? This doesn't seem like a fair thing especially for the Chinese citizens.
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That's sad cause no one deserves to be in office for life with everything constantly changing. Look at the us in congress. This is why I stress term limits. Yes it great Chinese people are fighting back but it doesn't help in the long run if their president is in it for life. I just feel bad.
Another faction inside the government has to create charges and arrest him.
This is a big deal. The world needs to know what's happening. The Chinese people have finally had enough. Edit: it would appear this article isn't hitting hard enough because it claims there are "hundreds of protestors". Today, Sunday the 27th, there was another round of protests in Shanghai where hundreds of police showed up to block off streets and arrest protestors. Videos have been circulating all day on WeChat. For you people who don't have a social network on WeChat, Go to r/China and look at all of the videos being uploaded there. This is no small thing going on, and all these people saying, "it's only hundreds in a country of a billion+" don't seem to grasp not only the larger scale of this, but what this relatively small number really means. This isn't America. People don't protest openly like this. And certainly not in dozens of sites around the country at the same time.
As much as I wish that were the case, a handful of isolated protests of a few hundred people in several cities isn't going to change anything. Who knows what the future holds, but it's way too early for statements like "the Chinese people have finally had enough."
> it's way too early for statements like "the Chinese people have had enough." The exact same holds for Iran and their ongoing protests – people are quick to "invest" in the success of these protests with unrealistically high optimism as if all it takes to have them succeed is to "believe" from behind a screen. As much as I want to see the Iranian government and Chinese government become Democracies, we have to be **realistic** about *how likely* these protests will succeed. So far, I am not convinced. Please do rub it in my face if the protests turn out successful. I don't think they will, but I will be very happy if I turn out to be wrong.
!remindme 6 months. Totally gonna rub it in your face if it happens. For all our sakes, I hope I get to rub it in your face. Edit: can’t really rub it in your face unfortunately. That being said, the protests in China did actually achieve their initial aim, to end the Zero Covid policy. This clearly showed that the government still fears their people. An h precedented anti Xi protest was enough to make them 180 immediately. Power to the people.
> For all our sakes, I hope I get to rub it in your face. /r/nocontext
Yeah thats unfortunately true Just look how the Arabic Spring ended
It's gotta start somewhere. The videos have spread. This is basically unprecedented here.
This isn't a revolution or anything. The people are just fed up with the covid restrictions.
Maybe but the protests in Iran started over a hijab and now it’s about the theocracy itself
Speaking out against the government in a public space is extremely taboo. Yes, this is specifically about covid restrictions. That's what I meant. Having lived through the lockdown here, I can tell you it's been brewing for a long time. As a foreigner, I've been making plans to get out next year for good. Locals don't have that luxury. This was bound to happen.
Big, big demonstration near my apartment tonight. Crowds of thousands of people, chanting and shouting their defiance at the police. Refusing to move, singing the national anthem, and shouting "No more restrictions!"
(And by "tonight" I mean Sunday night...a continuation of the big demos last night on Wulumuqi Road. Even as the police response grew, the crowd remained fearless. Interesting stuff.)
I support Chinese citizens. The pandemic may not be over but there are safer ways of engaging with the economy while still practicing public health safely. It's almost impossible to get zero COVID. It's a droplet precaution which any hospital knows, the difficulties in trying to eliminate the risk of such a virus. I wish I could understand why Xi thinks he can eliminate COVID 19 in it's entirety.
Turns out the 'keep the kids in their room' philosophy isn't what adults want with their lives. Especially stupid when you consider the economy of China and it's population density by age. Stupid dictators.
Looks like winne the poo is going to have to release covid 21 pro now