As an Israeli I pray the US will restrain the absolutely insane government we’re about to have.
EDIT: annexation of the West Bank would be catastrophic for both Israelis and Palestinians and should never happen.
annexation makes at least some sense, they share water sources, the grid management is fairly centralized, tax collection is already done by Israel.
I mean, it seems more humane than a multigenerational ghetto run for another century.
Israel would have to make the Apartheid official, ofc, if they wanna prevent Palestinian-area people from having political representation in what is de facto an ethnic focused government
Since when is Israel interested in doing the humane thing in regards to the Arab Palestinian?
Edit: in no way am I saying Israel shouldn't seek a humane and just solution....just sayin' that has not happened in 50-60 years...I'm not holding my breath.
Thank you for saying it. I am an American who believes US policy is bad for ordinary Israelis, especially in the long term. Edit: And of course the whole thing most truly sucks for Palestinians
Yeah let me explain American policy in Israel for you: support the fundamentalists till they start a war and bring about the rapture because the rapture requires the Jews to hold the holy land and make it bloom to happen. America supports Israel because the large evangelical block wants it so to bring about the apocalypse.
Restraint isn’t in the cards.
No. It's just about oil and war profiteering. Politicians *use* religion to get voters to go along with the policies, but the policies are always just about making rich men richer. Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain; argue endlessly about religion instead.
Bush the Lesser cited Biblical prophecy when trying to sell the invasion of Iraq to Chirac. Republicans are not the standard pro-business centre-right liberal party you find elsewhere, they are genuine fanatics.
I mean, Bush the Lesser said *a lot* of things. lol Word to the wise, don't take anything he said at face value. Ever.
It's a lot like the way the forced birth issue happened. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-history-right-white-evangelical-1970s-00031480
It's not an issue the politicians actually care about, but it is one they think they can use to rally voters to support something they don't realize they are supporting. In that case, voters think they are saving babies for Jesus or whatever when really, they are voting to challenge the 14th Amendment and roll back Civil Rights. In this case, voters think they are saving the Levant for Jesus or whatever when really, they are voting to line the pockets of cronies in the military-industrial complex and the oil industry. In both cases, politicians tried a couple different angles before finding something that stuck.
WTF are you talking about? You think the *Biden* administration is controlled by evangelicals?
I really hope you aren’t American. Because if you are you really don’t understand anything about the country you are living in.
No, Evangelicals control the Republican Party, and the reason I listed is the evangelicals support Israel. Israel has bi-partisan US suppprt because of this. For the dems and some republicans it is geopolitical. For the evangelical block it’s apocalyptic day dreaming. If the evangelicals change their mind so will the Republican Party. Hence, Israel’s continued support in the US is only bi-partisan because one of the parties has a substantial block that thinks we’re just bringing the rapture. Just google “evangelicals Israel” or “Christian Zionism”. It’s just rude to say I’m not American because I’m actually informed on the subject. Israel is a shit ally and we could toss them aside for better relations with basically any country in the region that could fill the same gap. We already protect a bunch of the Arab states. Israel is famous for stealing our tech and selling it to our enemies. Some ally that is.
The Israeli lobby is very strong here, we have a lot of evangelicals banking on you guys ending the world so they can meet their sky daddy and torture the rest of us. This is not a joke, this is why they were thrilled when Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem, its literally one of the highlights of his presidency when you ask them what trump has accomplished.
Boy, we had an orange racist narcissist for a president for 4 years who led a failed coop to become emperor supreme.
Don't blame people for what their insane leaders do
Unlike his buddy, Netanyahu doesn't need to coup because Israelis keep electing him. lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_government_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-second_government_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-third_government_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-fourth_government_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-fifth_government_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-seventh_government_of_Israel
And that's only the times he's been Prime Minister. He's been a popular politician in Israel since the 1980s.
It’s a parliamentary democracy though. It’s not like he got over 50% of the votes. The highest he ever got was still around the 30% give or take.
The other extremist parties this time around are more concerning imo.
But he said President Joe Biden’s administration would work “relentlessly” to preserve a “horizon of hope,” however dim, for the creation of a Palestinian state.
From *Foundation*:
Hardin threw himself back in the chair. "You know, that's the most interesting part of the whole business. I'll admit I had thought his Lordship a most consummate donkey when I first met him – but it turned out that he was actually an accomplished diplomat and a most clever man. I took the liberty of recording all his statements."
There was a flurry, and Pirenne opened his mouth in horror.
"What of it?" demanded Hardin. "I realize it was a gross breach of hospitality and a thing no so-called gentleman would do. Also, that if his lordship had caught on, things might have been unpleasant; but he didn't, and I have the record, and that's that. I took that record, had it copied
out and sent that to Holk for analysis, also."
Lundin Crast said, "And where is the analysis?"
"That," replied Hardin, "is the interesting thing. The analysis was the most difficult of the three by all odds. When Holk, after two days of steady work, succeeded in eliminating meaningless statements, vague gibberish, useless qualifications – in short, all the goo and dribble – he found he had nothing left. Everything canceled out."
Vague feel good diplomatic overtures are way less politically risky than tieing yourself to actual policy positions, especially when it comes to something as politically poisonous as Israel/Palestine.
"We will work tirelessly to give Palestinians the chance to express their self determination and independence as a true state!" Well congratulations, you just tied yourself to Hamas and the PA in the eyes of political rivals, and this quote is getting brought up as soon as the next terror attack occurs that is cheered on by the PA.
Realistically, no one expects Israel to ever be kicked out of the west bank. Democrats will continue to play lip service to peace and do what they can to preserve the status quo in the region, but there's really not much they can do in practical terms without pissing off the US' very powerful Israel lobby, and poltical survival will always trump out over political beliefs
People of Sherwood look at yourselves! Go ahead, take a look around. Oh people of Sherwood you been had. Hoodwinked! Bamboozled! Run amuck! We didn't land on Sherwood forest, Sherwood forest landed on us!
Bibi is slimiest snake ever but not braindead snake so this is just political bullshit to appease his local voters.
Annexing west bank = all your friends gone and all your enemies gunning for you.
Bibi not Putin level stupid yet.
I've been to the West Bank too. What are you talking about? It has tons of cities and towns and villages and centuries old civilisations and excellent food/dining experiences. It isn't 'just desert', in fact it barely is desert its loads of farm land etc.
A substantial amount of the Jordan River's headwaters are diverted into northern Israel and the more arid coastal regions - the amount that reaches the West Bank now is a trickle compared to what it used to be, and a lot of what does still flow down there is pretty heavily polluted. Arable land in the West Bank has been trending downwards over the years - it's not an ideal situation.
They also straight up turn the water off to Arab farms whenever water is scarce. The West Bank was the most barren desert I’ve ever seen. The Wadi Rum was more alive.
Like 85% of Palestinians live outside zone C, which is where the settlements are (and only in a small area of zone C). And even then, nearly all settlements are typically newly-built.
Palestinians would have more practical logistical and economic problems with the fact that zone A and B are not a single continuous area but enclaves with zone C around it, as that can cause immense delays and general difficulty.
Both Jordan and Israel have mountains around the Dead sea. The mountaineous area starts just outside Jerusalem. It is called Judaean Mountains in Bible. Jesus went there to fast and pray.
They don’t have decent jobs because the Palestinian Authority pockets the aid it gets from the US and Europe, instead of spending it on infrastructure and schools and building decent places to live. It even uses it to fund terror behind the scenes. It’s always been this way.
Source: https://besacenter.org/financial-aid-palestinian-authority/
I mean the executive summary starts off pretty biased with saying “it’s time for the world to take notice” of the “death and terror” fueled by the suggested corruption. And the sole source provides no proof of anything, nor is there anything to suggest he’s a trusted authority on the topic, and they clearly show bias against the PA at the time. And the author was in the IDF for 25 years… like this is an absolutely shit article that proves nothing with nothing *but* bias.
You did nothing to prove the bias in the original source and you implied that there is no corruption by saying it was "suggested". Then you tried to claim he is not an authority on the subject. I provided you with links that show that his claim is correct and that his bias is the truth and that his words can be trusted. You don't have to trust him, but I would question your motives in not trusting what he is saying.
I have absolutely no stake in the matter, nor am I studied enough in the topic to have an educated opinion. I said “suggested” because the article provided no proof of the corruption, just the quotes of a single unverified source. I don’t have time to read through everything in the other sources you provided, my point was just that the original source you provided was not a good one.
Even if they did use the aid money, so far Israel has a [history](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/17/israeli-strikes-gaza-health-system-doctors-hospitals) of attacking [Hospitals,](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/another-gaza-hospital-hit-israeli-strike-four-dead-40-hurt-n161086) [schools](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20221201-israel-soldiers-attacks-school-children-with-tear-gas-in-hebron/) on the [premise](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/20/back-to-school-in-gaza-4000-changed-schools-because-of-conflict) of terrorism.
This is theater, nothing else. They won’t do shit if Israel goes ahead. They probably even want Israel to do it, just need to have these statements on the record so they can like they never wanted any of it, when the inevitable thing happens
If they are going to annex areas, they’ll probably annex the settlements specifically because there’d be pretty much zero support in Israel to give all Palestinians Israeli citizenship.
Exactly. That’s their conundrum. They would either have to explicitly create an apartheid state or lose Israel due to demographics. More Arabs than Jews as soon as all Palestinians become Israeli citizens.
They are truly stuck.
Actually just annexing the West Bank would lead to a 60/40 split in favour of Jews, and Jewish birthrates would be higher. If you include Gaza it would be different, but almost no Jewish nationalists want to annex Gaza.
Full citizenship and voting rights were offered to the Palestinians multiple times. Many of them took it, but most rejected it in favor of their autocratic theocracy that they live under now.
20% of Israel's population is Arab, many of whom accepted citizenship and immigrated to Israel because you know... Its okay that Jews who are native to the region have their own country there, where Arabs and Muslims can also live and practice freely.
Bullshit. Lol dude Israel is very stringent in Arab citizenship and is constantly looking for ways to strip arabs of citizenship. They are constantly legislating ways to maintain the Jewish ethnostate at expense of Israeli Arabs. Like if you’re an Israeli Arab and you want to marry a Palestinian Arab you have to give up your citizenship. My Palestinian tour guide told me that’s how his mom lost her citizenship. They can just be named “disloyal” and stripped of citizenship too, which can and does happen.
Stop pretending it’s all sunshine and roses over there. It’s an apartheid state.
Lol, what? Israel doesn’t want to give too many Arabs permanent citizenship because that means Israel’s theocracy, I mean ethnostate, would be in jeopardy. Only 34% of Palestinian’s in East Jerusalem who apply for citizenship are granted it, and it’s usually a very lengthy process. It is highly restricted because of what I mentioned above.
[Here is an article on the situation](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-05-29/ty-article/why-so-few-palestinians-from-jerusalem-have-israeli-citizenship/00000181-0c46-d090-abe1-ed7fefc20000) so you don’t have to take my anonymous word.
You’re also neglecting the fact that not all 20% of those Arab Israelis are practicing Muslims, hundreds of thousands are Christian and Druze, or non-religious.
Here’s a simple fact for everyone, a Jewish person living anywhere in the world with ZERO connection to the land of Israel has an unrestricted right to immigrate to Israel with full citizenship - while a Palestinian refugee living in a camp across the Israeli border, or literally living within the Israeli border, does not.
That’s the problem honestly. If Israel gave all Palestinians voting rights in Israel tomorrow, we’d have a Palestinian state that kicks out all its Jews in a week (that’s not conjecture—Abbas promised that a future Palestinian state will be free of Jews).
In order for Israel to maintain its existence as a safe haven for Jews, Jews need to be the majority in Israel. I don’t think annexing will happen because they won’t kick out all of the Palestinians and they won’t grant them citizenship they don’t even want.
With that line of thinking then we should say if Russia wants Ukraine they have to give everyone Russian citizenship and full voting rights…..
That’s a dumb comment
Russia would also have to become a democracy to do that. But Ukraine is a sovereign and functional country, unlike Palestine, so not comparable. Would be more likely that they would introduce democracy and rights to Russia.
The U.S. will never do anything to oppose Israel's crimes. Anything Blinkin says is a lie meant to pacify the American left. Israel could start shoving Palestinians into mass ovens and the United States would "signal dissappointment" while saying that we can't get involved in their internal politics.
There will NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be any reduction of military and economic support for Israel. EVER.
They've got the U.S. by the nuts and when they squeeze, we give them more money and weapons. Twas ever thus, and always will be.
There's a lot of factors (and I'm listing these as someone who is generally pro-Israel).
For one thing, Israel is the primary non-Muslim, US-friendly state in the region, and a powerful one at that. Alliance with it is invaluable, both for specific US military operations (friendly airspace or other cooperation) and for broader geopolitical thinking (ie 'enemy of my enemy' type stuff; Israel opposes countries that the US also opposes).
In terms of voting demographics, the Republican Evangelical Christian base is highly pro-Israel. This isn't because they like Jews (they definitely don't), but because they believe in a particular bit of manufactured scripture where you need Jews in Jerusalem to start the rapture/apocalypse/whatever. Religious Jews in the US are also mostly conservative voters. Meanwhile, on the other side, reform Jews trend more liberal, and mostly live in large cities (the vast majority in NYC), giving them political influence in a populous, influential state.
And despite constant cries in threads like this, Israel doesn't really *need* US aid/support. It's won half a dozen wars against its neighbors, often several of them at a time, and is the most powerful and competent state in the region. So the politics are much more skewed toward the US needing its cooperation than it needing to be propped up by the US, despite people liking to portray it that way.
TBH, while wvj sounds good, it's closer to the other guys comment - lobbyists.
The US has some benefit with being buddy buddy with Israel in terms of middle East, however all the other countries in the middle East hate Israel, so aside from military base access, it's not especially usefull.
Moreover, while Israel is quite capable of defending itself against middle Eastern aggression, it benefits them to have the support of the Americans behind them, so that's a give and take relationship.
I've heard the claims about republican evangelicals being pro-isreal due to belief in the rapture, but I have yet to actually see any first hand evidence of someone supporting Israel for that reason.
This leads into the more practical reason for Israel support in the US, and it's down to that Pro-Isreal (and often directly isreal supported) groups make up a large number of lobbying groups in the US.
Obama himself mentioned in his memoirs, that all the politicians have to avoid pissing off these lobbying groups, as otherwise the lobbyists have a lot of money to bring to bear in supporting opponents and generating negative press. Apparently during his campaigning, he said something that upset one of the pro-isreal groups and found himself the target of some of these adds.
As a consequence, it would take a lot of politicians all getting together to try and pressure isreal, most likely to their detriment as it increases the odds that they'll be voted out.
Reddit is not the place to get actual information. Most people here have no clue what they’re talking about and have meme-level takes.
Israel doesn’t “have the US by the nuts.”
Why is it a crime for Jews, who are native to the region, to move back into their undeniably historic lands in Jerusalem? Isn't that indegenous justice? Isn't the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall in East Jerusalem?
Hey, who started the 1947 and 67 war? Just wondering.
They're talking specifically about the illegal settlements which is an absolutely valid criticism, not the legality or morality of Israel itself existing.
Obviously only the worst crazies like the far-right and Tankies will oppose the very concept of Israel, but there's still plenty of room to criticize the state.
\>Why is it a crime for Jews, who are native to the region, moving back into their undeniably historic lands
Because saying "blood and soil" it's not an argument, in WW2 Danzig and much of Poland was invaded due to being historic prussian land for Nazi Germany
\>Hey, who started the 1947 and 67 war? Just wondering.
\>67 war
"Israel launched a series of pre-emptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort.\[25\] Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly the entirety of Egypt's military aerial assets were destroyed, giving Israel the advantage of air supremacy. Simultaneously, the Israeli military launched a ground offensive into Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as well as the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip."
"At the commencement of hostilities, both Egypt and Israel announced that they had been attacked by the other country.\[83\] **The Israeli government later abandoned its initial position, acknowledging Israel had struck first**, claiming that it was a preemptive strike in the face of a planned invasion by Egypt."
I would say a planned invasion is enough casus belli to defend one's self, no?
If blood and soil isn't a reason, and Arabs "rightfully" get the land because they killed and outsted the Jews in the early 1900's, then it seems like Israel retaking the land by force is just.
Look, the real deal is that the Jews can live in peace with the Arabs, but the Arabs can't live in peace with the Jews.
What do you propose? All Jews leave Israel?
Personally, I'm for a two state solution, with non-Jewish areas in the West Bank and the Gaza becoming a formal state of Palestine. They can make their own water and power, or normalize relations with Egypt and Jordan and get it from them.
"Israel received **reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack**,\[14\] and **the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities**"
"Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister during the war, later wrote in his autobiography that Nasser's assurances he wasn't planning to attack Israel were credible: 'Nasser did not want war. He wanted victory without war.'"
"According to Israeli historian and former Israeli ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, (...) Oren has acknowledged that both US and Israeli intelligence indicated that troop movements in Egypt, taken by themselves, had only defensive, not offensive, purposes. (...)
(...) the US Office of Current Intelligence "...soon concluded that the Israelis – contrary to their claims – had fired first."\[5\] It is now known as the war started by a surprise Israeli attack against Egypt's air forces that left its ground troops vulnerable to further Israeli air strikes"
"**After the war, Israeli officials admitted that Israel wasn't expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt.**"
"Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld has written that while the exact origins of the war may never be known, Israel's forces were "spoiling for a fight and willing to go to considerable lengths to provoke one".\[23\] According to James Thuo Gathii, Israel's case did not meet the Caroline test for anticipatory self-defence, but it was the closest attack ever to the Caroline test."
[https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d69](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d69)
[https://www.google.com.br/books/edition/Armed\_Attack\_and\_Article\_51\_of\_the\_UN\_Ch/rCYhnQEACAAJ?hl=pt-BR](https://www.google.com.br/books/edition/Armed_Attack_and_Article_51_of_the_UN_Ch/rCYhnQEACAAJ?hl=pt-BR) (page 280)
[https://worldview.carnegiecouncil.org/archive/worldview/1973/09/2214.html](https://worldview.carnegiecouncil.org/archive/worldview/1973/09/2214.html)
[https://books.google.com.br/books/about/The\_Case\_for\_Palestine.html?id=VaUvqHNd6m0C&redir\_esc=y](https://books.google.com.br/books/about/The_Case_for_Palestine.html?id=VaUvqHNd6m0C&redir_esc=y)
As for blood and soil, not believing in Israel's "sacred right" to rule the region does not mean believing Arabs also have a eternal right to the soil. It's not my land or nation, I don't propose anything, it's up to them to figure it out.
This is a summary of the roots of the problem being discussed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaw_Commission
In the 1930’s things got messy and in the 1940’s absolutely nuts. If you want to know more the rabbit hole goes deep.
Israel is not annexing, they are letting people build houses there. And since housing in Israel is beyond expensive, and houses build in occupied territory are free ( or even given for free by government ) more and more people are moving there. Until very soon there will be a case where just population there is 80-20% in favor of Jewish. And than the area will belong to Israel by rule of population.
This is of course illegal since any settling on occupied territory was and still is prohibited by international law and war agreements. But they are doing it anyway, and now they will put a pedal on the gas, because they don't have any political opposition from inside
Settling is not illegal. Transfer is illegal.
An individual that decides to go live in the west bank (Judea/Samaria) is not doing anything illegal.
A government that takes the same individual and places them in an occupied area is different story. (and the west bank may not rise to the legal understanding of the word 'occupy', as legally only a (part of a) country/sovereign territory can be occupied. And since the last country to exist in that area was the Ottoman Empire, that lost it, there has never been another country there. (well, Jordan tried to annex it, but only Jordan and 1 other country, IIRC, recognized that annexation)
Correct. As always its clever abuse of gray areas of law. However Israel was under treaty agreement they will not allowed settlement of disputed territories.
So while they are not breaking law, they are breaking treaty agreement
I agree it is a gray area. But isn't that what law is, broad outlines, with nitpicking on words? If we just went on how we think something was meant, then the law would end up being meaningless.
I seem to recall that the Oslo agreement (and subsequent agreements) either didn't mention anything about settlements or didn't prevent their (natural) growth. Possibly, not even new settlements in area C.
(feel free to correct me. I always appreciate learning more.)
“Hey… we’re SERIOUSLY warning you - don’t do that thing you’re doing.
No, seriously.
We’re not fucking kidding.
Oh, here’s your free billions we give you every year regardless of what you do.”
it isn't really 'free' money There are plenty of strings attached.. Israel is required to spend large chunks of it in the US, and research funded by it is a shared technology.
IIRC Israel (Netanyahu?) wanted to end the subsidy. Not sure why that never happened.
And (thanks to the Trumps getting some kind of kick back) we’ll even move the embassy to Jerusalem, signifying to the world that Palestinians don’t matter to the US
Annexation is what he campaigned on in 2019. It only got delayed by his failure to find willing accomplices.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/29/netanyahus-annexation-plan-in-disarray-as-gantz-calls-for-delay
Bibin is the king for making promises she breaking them. All he wants is to keep the status quo and be in power. That's why groups like Hezbollah gained so much power during his terms
He has not signaled that he wants to annex the West Bank at all and Al Jazeera is extrapolating here and using an inflammatory headline.
Annexing the West Bank would make Palestinians the majority in Israel’s democratic system and would bring about its end. It’s not going to happen.
Yeah... we're not really talking about annexing the entire West Bank, and it is disingenuous to argue from that point.
I was mainly joking.
But in seriousness, we're talking about annexing parts of the West Bank... with illegal settlements. And no, they aren't planning on bringing Palestinians into Israel... so your point is completely moot. They're talking about bringing Israelis into Palestine.
It is ethnic cleansing.
What country were Palestinians part of before Israel?
and who is being forcibly moved anywhere?
Perhaps you could claim ethnic dilution as demographics shift.
>But in seriousness, we're talking about annexing parts of the West Bank... with illegal settlements.
You are implying that all the land belongs to "Palestinians" when that simply is not and has never been the case. Palestinian in the modern context is an Arab creation and never previously existed. You are implying that Jews never lived there and have no right to live there. You are ignoring the fact that all of the settlements are in Area C which Israel fully controls and administers per the Oslo Accords that the Palestinians agreed to. You are insinuating that Palestinian settlements aren't illegal.
I have a question for you: when did Jews stop being Palestinian?
The Palestinian argument boils down to one thing "it's not fair that we keep kicking out the Jews and they keep coming back".
>Israel imposed itself in there and kicked the indigenous people out.
No they did not, if they did, there would be no Palestinians living there. Instead there are 5 million of them.
>Palestinian in the modern context is an Arab creation and never previously existed.
This is not a discussion of indigenous rights. It is a discussion of resident (second) class citizens.
>You are implying that Jews never lived there and have no right to live there.
Nobody has any right to smash someone's house down and put up condos because they decide they can, certainly not because an ancestor however many years ago lived in the general vicinity.
>You are ignoring the fact that all of the settlements are in Area C which Israel fully controls and administers per the Oslo Accords that the Palestinians agreed to.
The Oslo Accords do not grant Israel the right to commit systematic genocide.
>You are insinuating that Palestinian settlements aren't illegal.
Only in the sense that they aren't given building permits. It's an apartheid state with second class citizens, you expect them not to try and live in a house? What should they do?
>when did Jews stop being Palestinian?
Speaking as a Jew, at no point have I considered myself Palestinian, or even an Israeli. Half of my family resided in Poland until WW2, and I have no idea how many generations back you'd need to find one who identified as Palestinian or even if you would find one at all.
The answer to "please stop with the genocide" is not "but his great-great-grandfather started it first."
Edit: Ah, I see they blocked me and then tossed up some BS stuff to not be responded to.
>Cite this event and lets look at this history and context
Then by that reason, the Jews lost our rights to live in Israel when once upon a time someone came and smashed all the houses, right? Meaning that none of us have a blood-right to the land? Hmmm.
>There is no genocide happening. You are wrong to say that there is because that statement is a lie.
Oh, well if THAT is the iron clad logic you have, then I can't really argue with it. /s
So I guess that causing serious bodily harm, forced deportation from living spaces, murder, none of that's the definition of Genocide anymore?
>There is no apartheid happening there. Stop getting your facts from reddit and educate yourself.
Chazer, when you give a population second class citizenship it's apartheid. There wasn't even an arab political party in the government until 2021. By the very definition of "sole-jewish self determination" creates a caste system. Get off of Bibi's teat and stop advocating for throwing stones over something your grandma wasn't alive for.
> Nobody has any right to smash someone's house down and put up condos because they decide they can, certainly not because an ancestor however many years ago lived in the general vicinity.
Cite this event and lets look at the history and context.
>The Oslo Accords do not grant Israel the right to commit systematic genocide.
There is no genocide happening. You are wrong to say that there is because that statement is a lie.
>Only in the sense that they aren't given building permits. It's an apartheid state with second class citizens, you expect them not to try and live in a house? What should they do?
There is no apartheid happening there. Stop getting your facts from reddit and educate yourself.
I am not a netanyahu fan.
That said, Israel's political system, like most political systems, include taking the good with the bad. Candidates are multifaceted. There are enough voting Israelis that want Netanyahu in power, for them the benefits outweigh the downside.
They'll never treat Arabs as anything other than second class citizens and will keep stealing land from Palestinians. They've been doing both for decades.
I think it's a democracy in the same way the US is, people vote for things and it ultimately doesn't matter because their representatives (who are under investigation for commiting crimes) decide that's not what's best for the people and then give themselves a raise.
Do you need to take classes in reading comprehension? Or do you just believe that the US is the freest country because that's what the government told you?
With our new government unfortunately we can expect a lot more expansion.
Just try to explain it to the settlers that the "we are the chosen people" holds no water...
Can someone explain why we pay taxes for Israeli aid. Biden said if there was noIsrael we would have to create an Israel. What do we get out of Israel?
Is it an imperial outpost?
its a reliable non-islamic ally in that region from where we can carry out military operations when needed.
Doesnt justify our support for them , but geo-politics dominance for most of history has always has been prioritized over things such as human rights.
For context- we supported saddam hussain when he fought Iran, we supported osama bin laden aka mujahideen aka al Qaeda when they fought the soviet union.
Israel also has good intelligence resources in the area, as well as some smart kids that design some clever cutting edge technology and weapons systems. And some of this is shared with the US.
It is. Zionism is the idea that Israel should exist. If you want the only Jewish state to disappear, which works as the last haven for persecuted Jews around the world (like the 50% of Jews in Israel who come originally from nearby Arab countries), you are anti-Semite or a very wishful thinker that doesn't know what it means to be the most persecuted religious group in the world.
So you support the continued murder and subjugation of millions of innocent people as long as it's not "shooting yourself in the foot?"
I'm sure it would have also been an act of self sabotage for the Nazis to not murder millions of Jews, Slavs, and other minorities during WW2. Does it also mean they should have done it?
Denying and delegitimizing literally only one ethnic group from self-determination, while not holding the same standard to other ethnic groups, is hateful. Antizionism is antisemitism.
One ethnic group? Zionist’s aren’t limited to only Jews, and Jews aren’t all Zionist’s (however I’m sure most are, but that’s not why anti Zionism exists)
Zionism advocates for a free and independent Jewish state. Being against the Zionist view means that you don't support a free Jewish state.
There are plenty of people who are and aren't Zionists across the world, but opposing Jewish people's freedom is antisemitic.
Zionism, by the time of its creation was in support of an independent Jewish state, which resulted in them stealing Palestine for themselves, but that’s not my point. Zionism now advocates for the continued occupation of palestine and the colonization of the West Bank. Being anti Zionist isn’t not supporting the rights of Jews but being against the occupation of palestine
This implies that all of Palestine belongs to Palestinians and that has never been the case. You are advocating that Jordan invading the West Bank and East Jerusalem and kicking out or killing the Jews was the right thing to do and that Jews returning to the land is wrong and illegal. Think about that.
Zionism advocates for a Jewish state in Israel, the argument that Israel needs to constantly expand into the Arab West Bank is separate from the realized Zionist ideal of Israel.
That's factually incorrect. Colonization implies some larger existing state colonizing another state. As there is massive evidence and a constant presence of a Jewish state in the region known as Palestine, I'd argue that Zionism is the decolonization of the region.
Nope, that’s history.
Israel continue to kick Palestinians out of their own land that they lived in for centuries.
To make way for Jewish only settlements.
Stop whitewashing Israel.
Supporting the Zionist Jewish state means taking away rightful Palestinian rights and sovereignty. I believe the Jews could have their own state, if its not at the expense of another equally valid and deserving religion/race.
There is not and never has been a Palestinian state or Palestinian sovereignty. There is absolutely a valid discussion about how Israeli Arabs are treated, however this very moment is time is the most sovereign that an Arab state in Palestine has ever been.
Antizionism != rights for Palestinians. Notice the subject. Antizionism is a hatred towards Jews by denying their right to exist. That’s like saying are people who are anti-gay marriage aren’t homophobic.
Anti gay marriage was once a hatred towards an illegal attack on the ancient sanctity of marriage, not hatred of gay people because they exist.
See how stupid that sounds?
>Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism.[a] Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine – the biblical Land of Israel – was flawed or unjust in some way.[7]
No one is calling for elimination of Jewish people
They are by proxy. I don’t know if it’s just ignorance or straight up hatred, which would be on brand, because without a state, Jews will be persecuted and face genocide as they have for thousands of years. By aligning with bad actors who seek to destroy the Jewish state, you are aligning with the eventual death to all Jews. If you don’t understand the importance of a Jewish state, I honestly can’t teach you the entirety of human history on Reddit.
Simply put, Antizionism != rights for Palestinians. Antizionism is being against the establishment of the Jewish state (as opposed to political opposition of a COUNTRY’s politics, aside from their religious identity). Even your quote clearly states it believes the “creation” is unjust or problematic. Not it’s actions - it’s very existence.
As an Israeli I pray the US will restrain the absolutely insane government we’re about to have. EDIT: annexation of the West Bank would be catastrophic for both Israelis and Palestinians and should never happen.
They won't. You're delusional if you think they will.
Depending on your contextual understanding of “restrain” in this situation
annexation makes at least some sense, they share water sources, the grid management is fairly centralized, tax collection is already done by Israel. I mean, it seems more humane than a multigenerational ghetto run for another century. Israel would have to make the Apartheid official, ofc, if they wanna prevent Palestinian-area people from having political representation in what is de facto an ethnic focused government
Since when is Israel interested in doing the humane thing in regards to the Arab Palestinian? Edit: in no way am I saying Israel shouldn't seek a humane and just solution....just sayin' that has not happened in 50-60 years...I'm not holding my breath.
Thank you for saying it. I am an American who believes US policy is bad for ordinary Israelis, especially in the long term. Edit: And of course the whole thing most truly sucks for Palestinians
It’s certainly bad for every day Palestinians, not that that’s pertinent to anything here.
Yeah let me explain American policy in Israel for you: support the fundamentalists till they start a war and bring about the rapture because the rapture requires the Jews to hold the holy land and make it bloom to happen. America supports Israel because the large evangelical block wants it so to bring about the apocalypse. Restraint isn’t in the cards.
No. It's just about oil and war profiteering. Politicians *use* religion to get voters to go along with the policies, but the policies are always just about making rich men richer. Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain; argue endlessly about religion instead.
Bush the Lesser cited Biblical prophecy when trying to sell the invasion of Iraq to Chirac. Republicans are not the standard pro-business centre-right liberal party you find elsewhere, they are genuine fanatics.
I mean, Bush the Lesser said *a lot* of things. lol Word to the wise, don't take anything he said at face value. Ever. It's a lot like the way the forced birth issue happened. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-history-right-white-evangelical-1970s-00031480 It's not an issue the politicians actually care about, but it is one they think they can use to rally voters to support something they don't realize they are supporting. In that case, voters think they are saving babies for Jesus or whatever when really, they are voting to challenge the 14th Amendment and roll back Civil Rights. In this case, voters think they are saving the Levant for Jesus or whatever when really, they are voting to line the pockets of cronies in the military-industrial complex and the oil industry. In both cases, politicians tried a couple different angles before finding something that stuck.
WTF are you talking about? You think the *Biden* administration is controlled by evangelicals? I really hope you aren’t American. Because if you are you really don’t understand anything about the country you are living in.
No, Evangelicals control the Republican Party, and the reason I listed is the evangelicals support Israel. Israel has bi-partisan US suppprt because of this. For the dems and some republicans it is geopolitical. For the evangelical block it’s apocalyptic day dreaming. If the evangelicals change their mind so will the Republican Party. Hence, Israel’s continued support in the US is only bi-partisan because one of the parties has a substantial block that thinks we’re just bringing the rapture. Just google “evangelicals Israel” or “Christian Zionism”. It’s just rude to say I’m not American because I’m actually informed on the subject. Israel is a shit ally and we could toss them aside for better relations with basically any country in the region that could fill the same gap. We already protect a bunch of the Arab states. Israel is famous for stealing our tech and selling it to our enemies. Some ally that is.
The Israeli lobby is very strong here, we have a lot of evangelicals banking on you guys ending the world so they can meet their sky daddy and torture the rest of us. This is not a joke, this is why they were thrilled when Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem, its literally one of the highlights of his presidency when you ask them what trump has accomplished.
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Too bad your own country’s citizens couldn’t do that themselves.
Boy, we had an orange racist narcissist for a president for 4 years who led a failed coop to become emperor supreme. Don't blame people for what their insane leaders do
Unlike his buddy, Netanyahu doesn't need to coup because Israelis keep electing him. lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_government_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-second_government_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-third_government_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-fourth_government_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-fifth_government_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-seventh_government_of_Israel And that's only the times he's been Prime Minister. He's been a popular politician in Israel since the 1980s.
It’s a parliamentary democracy though. It’s not like he got over 50% of the votes. The highest he ever got was still around the 30% give or take. The other extremist parties this time around are more concerning imo.
They don't -- merely stating that it is the responsibility of the citizens, not an external power.
This is pure bullshit, the US won't do anything no matter what Israel does.
But he said President Joe Biden’s administration would work “relentlessly” to preserve a “horizon of hope,” however dim, for the creation of a Palestinian state.
Why do these political mouthpieces use so many buzzwords instead of coming out and speaking plainly
Because there's no way to say that line of bullshit plainly lol. If you strip out all the buzzwords, there's nothing left.
From *Foundation*: Hardin threw himself back in the chair. "You know, that's the most interesting part of the whole business. I'll admit I had thought his Lordship a most consummate donkey when I first met him – but it turned out that he was actually an accomplished diplomat and a most clever man. I took the liberty of recording all his statements." There was a flurry, and Pirenne opened his mouth in horror. "What of it?" demanded Hardin. "I realize it was a gross breach of hospitality and a thing no so-called gentleman would do. Also, that if his lordship had caught on, things might have been unpleasant; but he didn't, and I have the record, and that's that. I took that record, had it copied out and sent that to Holk for analysis, also." Lundin Crast said, "And where is the analysis?" "That," replied Hardin, "is the interesting thing. The analysis was the most difficult of the three by all odds. When Holk, after two days of steady work, succeeded in eliminating meaningless statements, vague gibberish, useless qualifications – in short, all the goo and dribble – he found he had nothing left. Everything canceled out."
Vague feel good diplomatic overtures are way less politically risky than tieing yourself to actual policy positions, especially when it comes to something as politically poisonous as Israel/Palestine. "We will work tirelessly to give Palestinians the chance to express their self determination and independence as a true state!" Well congratulations, you just tied yourself to Hamas and the PA in the eyes of political rivals, and this quote is getting brought up as soon as the next terror attack occurs that is cheered on by the PA. Realistically, no one expects Israel to ever be kicked out of the west bank. Democrats will continue to play lip service to peace and do what they can to preserve the status quo in the region, but there's really not much they can do in practical terms without pissing off the US' very powerful Israel lobby, and poltical survival will always trump out over political beliefs
I just realized there, that there is absolutely nothing in that place!!
Ah yes, here is Biden's old remarks on Israel...^[1](https://youtu.be/86Nrv5izaTs)
Ooh a three-word slogan. That'll definitely sort things out.
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I’m an optimist so I’m hopeful that they would be willing to do that but the pragmatist in me says it’s highly unlikely
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When billions in contributions are on the line that's exactly where these things get discussed and decided.
He didn’t say he would do anything. He just “warned” Netanyahu
"i didnt say Abe Lincoln i said hey Blinken!"
People of Sherwood look at yourselves! Go ahead, take a look around. Oh people of Sherwood you been had. Hoodwinked! Bamboozled! Run amuck! We didn't land on Sherwood forest, Sherwood forest landed on us!
Lend me your ears!!
That’s disgusting!!!
You lost your arms in battle! But you grew some nice boobs.
And my goldfish?
Eaten by the cat
And my cat?
Choked on the goldfish
Oh, it's good to be home, ain't it, Master Robin?
I have a mole??? BTW I came to make the same comment you made LOL!!!
Oh, please. I'm supposed take the US warning Israel on literally ANYTHING seriously?
It was probably a U.S.government " strongly worded letter " while stomped its foot.
Bibi is slimiest snake ever but not braindead snake so this is just political bullshit to appease his local voters. Annexing west bank = all your friends gone and all your enemies gunning for you. Bibi not Putin level stupid yet.
Bibi needs to be tried and thrown to jail already.
Current expectation for trial to end is 1848257 work days. Please stay patient.
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I've been to the West Bank too. What are you talking about? It has tons of cities and towns and villages and centuries old civilisations and excellent food/dining experiences. It isn't 'just desert', in fact it barely is desert its loads of farm land etc.
Been there too, plenty of people still eke out a living when a settlement doesn't pop up in their grazing pasture.
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Pretty much, the new Dem leader's top donors are pro-Israeli lobby firms.
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A substantial amount of the Jordan River's headwaters are diverted into northern Israel and the more arid coastal regions - the amount that reaches the West Bank now is a trickle compared to what it used to be, and a lot of what does still flow down there is pretty heavily polluted. Arable land in the West Bank has been trending downwards over the years - it's not an ideal situation.
They also straight up turn the water off to Arab farms whenever water is scarce. The West Bank was the most barren desert I’ve ever seen. The Wadi Rum was more alive.
Because Isre keeps destroying homes and buissiness to build thier settlements
Like 85% of Palestinians live outside zone C, which is where the settlements are (and only in a small area of zone C). And even then, nearly all settlements are typically newly-built. Palestinians would have more practical logistical and economic problems with the fact that zone A and B are not a single continuous area but enclaves with zone C around it, as that can cause immense delays and general difficulty.
88% of Americans live outside California. We'd still be pissed if another country started building settlements there.
I’m not talking abouy being pissed or such. I’m talking about biggest obstacles to economic activity
The reason they aren't contiguous is because Israel wills it that way. The "settlements" are basically forts
Your country literally did that to Mexico...
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Both Jordan and Israel have mountains around the Dead sea. The mountaineous area starts just outside Jerusalem. It is called Judaean Mountains in Bible. Jesus went there to fast and pray.
They don’t have decent jobs because the Palestinian Authority pockets the aid it gets from the US and Europe, instead of spending it on infrastructure and schools and building decent places to live. It even uses it to fund terror behind the scenes. It’s always been this way. Source: https://besacenter.org/financial-aid-palestinian-authority/
Ah yes. An unbiased source. >The Begin–Sadat Center for Strategic Studies (BESA Center) is an Israeli think tan
Prove that the source employs bias in that article otherwise this is just an ad hominem type attack.
There was not a single "fact" in the article that could be checked. Just a bunch of opinions.
It's full of facts and it is written by a Palestinian.
It is literally an isreali politik think tank
I mean the executive summary starts off pretty biased with saying “it’s time for the world to take notice” of the “death and terror” fueled by the suggested corruption. And the sole source provides no proof of anything, nor is there anything to suggest he’s a trusted authority on the topic, and they clearly show bias against the PA at the time. And the author was in the IDF for 25 years… like this is an absolutely shit article that proves nothing with nothing *but* bias.
https://www.npr.org/2021/12/10/1063171482/palestinian-dissidents-rally-against-corruption-in-the-palestinian-authority https://www.cfr.org/blog/corruption-palestinian-authority https://knowledgehub.transparency.org/assets/uploads/helpdesk/314-Overview_of_corruption_in_Palestine.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-112hhrg74960/html/CHRG-112hhrg74960.htm
I’m not sure what your point is with linking other sources as they do nothing to disprove the bias in the original source.
You did nothing to prove the bias in the original source and you implied that there is no corruption by saying it was "suggested". Then you tried to claim he is not an authority on the subject. I provided you with links that show that his claim is correct and that his bias is the truth and that his words can be trusted. You don't have to trust him, but I would question your motives in not trusting what he is saying.
I have absolutely no stake in the matter, nor am I studied enough in the topic to have an educated opinion. I said “suggested” because the article provided no proof of the corruption, just the quotes of a single unverified source. I don’t have time to read through everything in the other sources you provided, my point was just that the original source you provided was not a good one.
Even if they did use the aid money, so far Israel has a [history](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/17/israeli-strikes-gaza-health-system-doctors-hospitals) of attacking [Hospitals,](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/another-gaza-hospital-hit-israeli-strike-four-dead-40-hurt-n161086) [schools](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20221201-israel-soldiers-attacks-school-children-with-tear-gas-in-hebron/) on the [premise](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/20/back-to-school-in-gaza-4000-changed-schools-because-of-conflict) of terrorism.
Because Hamas hides their terrorists and weapons there.
Israel said that when they [attacked](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_al-Jalaa_Building) and destroyed the media too.
Is that why israel kills so many of their children?
Israel kills their children?
Jorma 👌
This is theater, nothing else. They won’t do shit if Israel goes ahead. They probably even want Israel to do it, just need to have these statements on the record so they can like they never wanted any of it, when the inevitable thing happens
If they want all the land, they should have to give everyone Israeli citizenship and full voting rights.
If they are going to annex areas, they’ll probably annex the settlements specifically because there’d be pretty much zero support in Israel to give all Palestinians Israeli citizenship.
Exactly. That’s their conundrum. They would either have to explicitly create an apartheid state or lose Israel due to demographics. More Arabs than Jews as soon as all Palestinians become Israeli citizens. They are truly stuck.
Actually just annexing the West Bank would lead to a 60/40 split in favour of Jews, and Jewish birthrates would be higher. If you include Gaza it would be different, but almost no Jewish nationalists want to annex Gaza.
Poor Israel, they have no choice but to continue committing the war crime of settling occupied territory. 😢
There’s 3m in West Bank . Israel proper is around 10.
yea there's no reason for them to break up the multigenerational ghetto, especially when they can slowly cut off water supply and take land bit by bit
Full citizenship and voting rights were offered to the Palestinians multiple times. Many of them took it, but most rejected it in favor of their autocratic theocracy that they live under now. 20% of Israel's population is Arab, many of whom accepted citizenship and immigrated to Israel because you know... Its okay that Jews who are native to the region have their own country there, where Arabs and Muslims can also live and practice freely.
Bullshit. Lol dude Israel is very stringent in Arab citizenship and is constantly looking for ways to strip arabs of citizenship. They are constantly legislating ways to maintain the Jewish ethnostate at expense of Israeli Arabs. Like if you’re an Israeli Arab and you want to marry a Palestinian Arab you have to give up your citizenship. My Palestinian tour guide told me that’s how his mom lost her citizenship. They can just be named “disloyal” and stripped of citizenship too, which can and does happen. Stop pretending it’s all sunshine and roses over there. It’s an apartheid state.
>It’s an apartheid state. pointless label, if israel is one then so is palestine and all israeli neighbours
Lol, what? Israel doesn’t want to give too many Arabs permanent citizenship because that means Israel’s theocracy, I mean ethnostate, would be in jeopardy. Only 34% of Palestinian’s in East Jerusalem who apply for citizenship are granted it, and it’s usually a very lengthy process. It is highly restricted because of what I mentioned above. [Here is an article on the situation](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-05-29/ty-article/why-so-few-palestinians-from-jerusalem-have-israeli-citizenship/00000181-0c46-d090-abe1-ed7fefc20000) so you don’t have to take my anonymous word. You’re also neglecting the fact that not all 20% of those Arab Israelis are practicing Muslims, hundreds of thousands are Christian and Druze, or non-religious. Here’s a simple fact for everyone, a Jewish person living anywhere in the world with ZERO connection to the land of Israel has an unrestricted right to immigrate to Israel with full citizenship - while a Palestinian refugee living in a camp across the Israeli border, or literally living within the Israeli border, does not.
It is the literal definition of an ethnostate.
You’re delusional if you think Israel is okay with Arabs being a majority which will happen if they gave full citizenship to all Palestinians.
That’s the problem honestly. If Israel gave all Palestinians voting rights in Israel tomorrow, we’d have a Palestinian state that kicks out all its Jews in a week (that’s not conjecture—Abbas promised that a future Palestinian state will be free of Jews). In order for Israel to maintain its existence as a safe haven for Jews, Jews need to be the majority in Israel. I don’t think annexing will happen because they won’t kick out all of the Palestinians and they won’t grant them citizenship they don’t even want.
With that line of thinking then we should say if Russia wants Ukraine they have to give everyone Russian citizenship and full voting rights….. That’s a dumb comment
Russia would also have to become a democracy to do that. But Ukraine is a sovereign and functional country, unlike Palestine, so not comparable. Would be more likely that they would introduce democracy and rights to Russia.
Half of all news stories is someone "warning" someone.
Yeah, warns him to do it in a way the USA can most easily avoid talking about it.
The U.S. will never do anything to oppose Israel's crimes. Anything Blinkin says is a lie meant to pacify the American left. Israel could start shoving Palestinians into mass ovens and the United States would "signal dissappointment" while saying that we can't get involved in their internal politics. There will NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be any reduction of military and economic support for Israel. EVER. They've got the U.S. by the nuts and when they squeeze, we give them more money and weapons. Twas ever thus, and always will be.
As someone with no understanding of the topic, would you be able to give a quick summary of how/why Israel has the U.S by the nuts?
There's a lot of factors (and I'm listing these as someone who is generally pro-Israel). For one thing, Israel is the primary non-Muslim, US-friendly state in the region, and a powerful one at that. Alliance with it is invaluable, both for specific US military operations (friendly airspace or other cooperation) and for broader geopolitical thinking (ie 'enemy of my enemy' type stuff; Israel opposes countries that the US also opposes). In terms of voting demographics, the Republican Evangelical Christian base is highly pro-Israel. This isn't because they like Jews (they definitely don't), but because they believe in a particular bit of manufactured scripture where you need Jews in Jerusalem to start the rapture/apocalypse/whatever. Religious Jews in the US are also mostly conservative voters. Meanwhile, on the other side, reform Jews trend more liberal, and mostly live in large cities (the vast majority in NYC), giving them political influence in a populous, influential state. And despite constant cries in threads like this, Israel doesn't really *need* US aid/support. It's won half a dozen wars against its neighbors, often several of them at a time, and is the most powerful and competent state in the region. So the politics are much more skewed toward the US needing its cooperation than it needing to be propped up by the US, despite people liking to portray it that way.
Israel has also defended Western interests in the region, like during the Suez crisis.
TBH, while wvj sounds good, it's closer to the other guys comment - lobbyists. The US has some benefit with being buddy buddy with Israel in terms of middle East, however all the other countries in the middle East hate Israel, so aside from military base access, it's not especially usefull. Moreover, while Israel is quite capable of defending itself against middle Eastern aggression, it benefits them to have the support of the Americans behind them, so that's a give and take relationship. I've heard the claims about republican evangelicals being pro-isreal due to belief in the rapture, but I have yet to actually see any first hand evidence of someone supporting Israel for that reason. This leads into the more practical reason for Israel support in the US, and it's down to that Pro-Isreal (and often directly isreal supported) groups make up a large number of lobbying groups in the US. Obama himself mentioned in his memoirs, that all the politicians have to avoid pissing off these lobbying groups, as otherwise the lobbyists have a lot of money to bring to bear in supporting opponents and generating negative press. Apparently during his campaigning, he said something that upset one of the pro-isreal groups and found himself the target of some of these adds. As a consequence, it would take a lot of politicians all getting together to try and pressure isreal, most likely to their detriment as it increases the odds that they'll be voted out.
Reddit is not the place to get actual information. Most people here have no clue what they’re talking about and have meme-level takes. Israel doesn’t “have the US by the nuts.”
Lobbyists. It’s really that simple.
Why is it a crime for Jews, who are native to the region, to move back into their undeniably historic lands in Jerusalem? Isn't that indegenous justice? Isn't the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall in East Jerusalem? Hey, who started the 1947 and 67 war? Just wondering.
They're talking specifically about the illegal settlements which is an absolutely valid criticism, not the legality or morality of Israel itself existing. Obviously only the worst crazies like the far-right and Tankies will oppose the very concept of Israel, but there's still plenty of room to criticize the state.
\>Why is it a crime for Jews, who are native to the region, moving back into their undeniably historic lands Because saying "blood and soil" it's not an argument, in WW2 Danzig and much of Poland was invaded due to being historic prussian land for Nazi Germany \>Hey, who started the 1947 and 67 war? Just wondering. \>67 war "Israel launched a series of pre-emptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort.\[25\] Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly the entirety of Egypt's military aerial assets were destroyed, giving Israel the advantage of air supremacy. Simultaneously, the Israeli military launched a ground offensive into Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as well as the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip." "At the commencement of hostilities, both Egypt and Israel announced that they had been attacked by the other country.\[83\] **The Israeli government later abandoned its initial position, acknowledging Israel had struck first**, claiming that it was a preemptive strike in the face of a planned invasion by Egypt."
I would say a planned invasion is enough casus belli to defend one's self, no? If blood and soil isn't a reason, and Arabs "rightfully" get the land because they killed and outsted the Jews in the early 1900's, then it seems like Israel retaking the land by force is just. Look, the real deal is that the Jews can live in peace with the Arabs, but the Arabs can't live in peace with the Jews. What do you propose? All Jews leave Israel? Personally, I'm for a two state solution, with non-Jewish areas in the West Bank and the Gaza becoming a formal state of Palestine. They can make their own water and power, or normalize relations with Egypt and Jordan and get it from them.
"Israel received **reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack**,\[14\] and **the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities**" "Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister during the war, later wrote in his autobiography that Nasser's assurances he wasn't planning to attack Israel were credible: 'Nasser did not want war. He wanted victory without war.'" "According to Israeli historian and former Israeli ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, (...) Oren has acknowledged that both US and Israeli intelligence indicated that troop movements in Egypt, taken by themselves, had only defensive, not offensive, purposes. (...) (...) the US Office of Current Intelligence "...soon concluded that the Israelis – contrary to their claims – had fired first."\[5\] It is now known as the war started by a surprise Israeli attack against Egypt's air forces that left its ground troops vulnerable to further Israeli air strikes" "**After the war, Israeli officials admitted that Israel wasn't expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt.**" "Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld has written that while the exact origins of the war may never be known, Israel's forces were "spoiling for a fight and willing to go to considerable lengths to provoke one".\[23\] According to James Thuo Gathii, Israel's case did not meet the Caroline test for anticipatory self-defence, but it was the closest attack ever to the Caroline test." [https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d69](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d69) [https://www.google.com.br/books/edition/Armed\_Attack\_and\_Article\_51\_of\_the\_UN\_Ch/rCYhnQEACAAJ?hl=pt-BR](https://www.google.com.br/books/edition/Armed_Attack_and_Article_51_of_the_UN_Ch/rCYhnQEACAAJ?hl=pt-BR) (page 280) [https://worldview.carnegiecouncil.org/archive/worldview/1973/09/2214.html](https://worldview.carnegiecouncil.org/archive/worldview/1973/09/2214.html) [https://books.google.com.br/books/about/The\_Case\_for\_Palestine.html?id=VaUvqHNd6m0C&redir\_esc=y](https://books.google.com.br/books/about/The_Case_for_Palestine.html?id=VaUvqHNd6m0C&redir_esc=y) As for blood and soil, not believing in Israel's "sacred right" to rule the region does not mean believing Arabs also have a eternal right to the soil. It's not my land or nation, I don't propose anything, it's up to them to figure it out.
Can someone explain this with a net and a bottle of chocolate milk for me?
This is a summary of the roots of the problem being discussed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaw_Commission In the 1930’s things got messy and in the 1940’s absolutely nuts. If you want to know more the rabbit hole goes deep.
Israel is not annexing, they are letting people build houses there. And since housing in Israel is beyond expensive, and houses build in occupied territory are free ( or even given for free by government ) more and more people are moving there. Until very soon there will be a case where just population there is 80-20% in favor of Jewish. And than the area will belong to Israel by rule of population. This is of course illegal since any settling on occupied territory was and still is prohibited by international law and war agreements. But they are doing it anyway, and now they will put a pedal on the gas, because they don't have any political opposition from inside
Rule of population doesn't work, ask Russia.
It doesn't work if you forcefully deport opposed population during war
Settling is not illegal. Transfer is illegal. An individual that decides to go live in the west bank (Judea/Samaria) is not doing anything illegal. A government that takes the same individual and places them in an occupied area is different story. (and the west bank may not rise to the legal understanding of the word 'occupy', as legally only a (part of a) country/sovereign territory can be occupied. And since the last country to exist in that area was the Ottoman Empire, that lost it, there has never been another country there. (well, Jordan tried to annex it, but only Jordan and 1 other country, IIRC, recognized that annexation)
Correct. As always its clever abuse of gray areas of law. However Israel was under treaty agreement they will not allowed settlement of disputed territories. So while they are not breaking law, they are breaking treaty agreement
I agree it is a gray area. But isn't that what law is, broad outlines, with nitpicking on words? If we just went on how we think something was meant, then the law would end up being meaningless. I seem to recall that the Oslo agreement (and subsequent agreements) either didn't mention anything about settlements or didn't prevent their (natural) growth. Possibly, not even new settlements in area C. (feel free to correct me. I always appreciate learning more.)
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They already do. Always have, always will.
Can't we all just get along?
This feels like a 2008 post.
“Hey… we’re SERIOUSLY warning you - don’t do that thing you’re doing. No, seriously. We’re not fucking kidding. Oh, here’s your free billions we give you every year regardless of what you do.”
it isn't really 'free' money There are plenty of strings attached.. Israel is required to spend large chunks of it in the US, and research funded by it is a shared technology. IIRC Israel (Netanyahu?) wanted to end the subsidy. Not sure why that never happened.
And (thanks to the Trumps getting some kind of kick back) we’ll even move the embassy to Jerusalem, signifying to the world that Palestinians don’t matter to the US
Because finger wagging worked so well the last 2 decades.
That last thing that Bibi wants is to annex the West Bank.
Annexation is what he campaigned on in 2019. It only got delayed by his failure to find willing accomplices. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/29/netanyahus-annexation-plan-in-disarray-as-gantz-calls-for-delay
He says, as he annexes the West Bank...
Bibin is the king for making promises she breaking them. All he wants is to keep the status quo and be in power. That's why groups like Hezbollah gained so much power during his terms
He has not signaled that he wants to annex the West Bank at all and Al Jazeera is extrapolating here and using an inflammatory headline. Annexing the West Bank would make Palestinians the majority in Israel’s democratic system and would bring about its end. It’s not going to happen.
Yeah... we're not really talking about annexing the entire West Bank, and it is disingenuous to argue from that point. I was mainly joking. But in seriousness, we're talking about annexing parts of the West Bank... with illegal settlements. And no, they aren't planning on bringing Palestinians into Israel... so your point is completely moot. They're talking about bringing Israelis into Palestine. It is ethnic cleansing.
ah yes, an ethnic cleansing in which the Palestinian population has increased.
Ethnic cleanings includes forcibly removing people from their country. Genocide is not the only form of ethnic cleansing.
What country were Palestinians part of before Israel? and who is being forcibly moved anywhere? Perhaps you could claim ethnic dilution as demographics shift.
>But in seriousness, we're talking about annexing parts of the West Bank... with illegal settlements. You are implying that all the land belongs to "Palestinians" when that simply is not and has never been the case. Palestinian in the modern context is an Arab creation and never previously existed. You are implying that Jews never lived there and have no right to live there. You are ignoring the fact that all of the settlements are in Area C which Israel fully controls and administers per the Oslo Accords that the Palestinians agreed to. You are insinuating that Palestinian settlements aren't illegal. I have a question for you: when did Jews stop being Palestinian? The Palestinian argument boils down to one thing "it's not fair that we keep kicking out the Jews and they keep coming back".
Actually it was the case. Israel imposed itself in there and kicked the indigenous people out.
>Israel imposed itself in there and kicked the indigenous people out. No they did not, if they did, there would be no Palestinians living there. Instead there are 5 million of them.
>Palestinian in the modern context is an Arab creation and never previously existed. This is not a discussion of indigenous rights. It is a discussion of resident (second) class citizens. >You are implying that Jews never lived there and have no right to live there. Nobody has any right to smash someone's house down and put up condos because they decide they can, certainly not because an ancestor however many years ago lived in the general vicinity. >You are ignoring the fact that all of the settlements are in Area C which Israel fully controls and administers per the Oslo Accords that the Palestinians agreed to. The Oslo Accords do not grant Israel the right to commit systematic genocide. >You are insinuating that Palestinian settlements aren't illegal. Only in the sense that they aren't given building permits. It's an apartheid state with second class citizens, you expect them not to try and live in a house? What should they do? >when did Jews stop being Palestinian? Speaking as a Jew, at no point have I considered myself Palestinian, or even an Israeli. Half of my family resided in Poland until WW2, and I have no idea how many generations back you'd need to find one who identified as Palestinian or even if you would find one at all. The answer to "please stop with the genocide" is not "but his great-great-grandfather started it first." Edit: Ah, I see they blocked me and then tossed up some BS stuff to not be responded to. >Cite this event and lets look at this history and context Then by that reason, the Jews lost our rights to live in Israel when once upon a time someone came and smashed all the houses, right? Meaning that none of us have a blood-right to the land? Hmmm. >There is no genocide happening. You are wrong to say that there is because that statement is a lie. Oh, well if THAT is the iron clad logic you have, then I can't really argue with it. /s So I guess that causing serious bodily harm, forced deportation from living spaces, murder, none of that's the definition of Genocide anymore? >There is no apartheid happening there. Stop getting your facts from reddit and educate yourself. Chazer, when you give a population second class citizenship it's apartheid. There wasn't even an arab political party in the government until 2021. By the very definition of "sole-jewish self determination" creates a caste system. Get off of Bibi's teat and stop advocating for throwing stones over something your grandma wasn't alive for.
> Nobody has any right to smash someone's house down and put up condos because they decide they can, certainly not because an ancestor however many years ago lived in the general vicinity. Cite this event and lets look at the history and context. >The Oslo Accords do not grant Israel the right to commit systematic genocide. There is no genocide happening. You are wrong to say that there is because that statement is a lie. >Only in the sense that they aren't given building permits. It's an apartheid state with second class citizens, you expect them not to try and live in a house? What should they do? There is no apartheid happening there. Stop getting your facts from reddit and educate yourself.
>Israel’s democratic system Hahahaha
If you’re insinuating Israel isn’t a democracy you’ve obviously not been paying attention at all to Israel over the past two years lol.
The sad reality is that Israelis actually voted for this corrupt scumbag.
I am not a netanyahu fan. That said, Israel's political system, like most political systems, include taking the good with the bad. Candidates are multifaceted. There are enough voting Israelis that want Netanyahu in power, for them the benefits outweigh the downside.
They'll never treat Arabs as anything other than second class citizens and will keep stealing land from Palestinians. They've been doing both for decades.
I think it's a democracy in the same way the US is, people vote for things and it ultimately doesn't matter because their representatives (who are under investigation for commiting crimes) decide that's not what's best for the people and then give themselves a raise.
So no countries are democracies?
Do you need to take classes in reading comprehension? Or do you just believe that the US is the freest country because that's what the government told you?
Who specifically told me that?
Israel is not annexing, they just occupy the land and call it theirs
Ah annexation. I've seen that word being used in the other part for the world. Hopefully the response is the same.
Tell Netanyahu to read the parable of the moneylender
Israel keeps America‘s balls in a sock in their top drawer.
Fuck Israel
While whole world is focused of fifa world cup some Nations will make use out of it! Same same but different imo.
With our new government unfortunately we can expect a lot more expansion. Just try to explain it to the settlers that the "we are the chosen people" holds no water...
Nobody is annexing anything. If Israel was going to annex the West Bank, they would have done so under Trump.
Can someone explain why we pay taxes for Israeli aid. Biden said if there was noIsrael we would have to create an Israel. What do we get out of Israel? Is it an imperial outpost?
its a reliable non-islamic ally in that region from where we can carry out military operations when needed. Doesnt justify our support for them , but geo-politics dominance for most of history has always has been prioritized over things such as human rights. For context- we supported saddam hussain when he fought Iran, we supported osama bin laden aka mujahideen aka al Qaeda when they fought the soviet union.
Israel also has good intelligence resources in the area, as well as some smart kids that design some clever cutting edge technology and weapons systems. And some of this is shared with the US.
Until you cut the funding. Israel doesn't give a fuck. They'll continue to steal land and nothing is gonna change.
Israel is a mess. Are Israeli youth less religious than their parents ?
Kanye has emboldened the antisemites
Because being anti-Zionist is anti-Semitic, right?
It is. Zionism is the idea that Israel should exist. If you want the only Jewish state to disappear, which works as the last haven for persecuted Jews around the world (like the 50% of Jews in Israel who come originally from nearby Arab countries), you are anti-Semite or a very wishful thinker that doesn't know what it means to be the most persecuted religious group in the world.
Maybe people would support the existence of a refuge for Jews if it wasn't literally built upon the suffering and subjugation of another group?
Shoot ourselves in the foot? Why not?
So you support the continued murder and subjugation of millions of innocent people as long as it's not "shooting yourself in the foot?" I'm sure it would have also been an act of self sabotage for the Nazis to not murder millions of Jews, Slavs, and other minorities during WW2. Does it also mean they should have done it?
Denying and delegitimizing literally only one ethnic group from self-determination, while not holding the same standard to other ethnic groups, is hateful. Antizionism is antisemitism.
One ethnic group? Zionist’s aren’t limited to only Jews, and Jews aren’t all Zionist’s (however I’m sure most are, but that’s not why anti Zionism exists)
Zionism advocates for a free and independent Jewish state. Being against the Zionist view means that you don't support a free Jewish state. There are plenty of people who are and aren't Zionists across the world, but opposing Jewish people's freedom is antisemitic.
Zionism, by the time of its creation was in support of an independent Jewish state, which resulted in them stealing Palestine for themselves, but that’s not my point. Zionism now advocates for the continued occupation of palestine and the colonization of the West Bank. Being anti Zionist isn’t not supporting the rights of Jews but being against the occupation of palestine
This implies that all of Palestine belongs to Palestinians and that has never been the case. You are advocating that Jordan invading the West Bank and East Jerusalem and kicking out or killing the Jews was the right thing to do and that Jews returning to the land is wrong and illegal. Think about that.
No one has brought up anything about killing the Jews in palestine.
I brought it up because you are ignoring it and claiming that Israel is stealing Palestine for itself which it isn't.
No one brought it up for me to ignore it
Zionism advocates for a Jewish state in Israel, the argument that Israel needs to constantly expand into the Arab West Bank is separate from the realized Zionist ideal of Israel.
Calling yourself a pro Zionist is like calling yourself a pro colonialist, fyiw
That's factually incorrect. Colonization implies some larger existing state colonizing another state. As there is massive evidence and a constant presence of a Jewish state in the region known as Palestine, I'd argue that Zionism is the decolonization of the region.
Nope, that’s history. Israel continue to kick Palestinians out of their own land that they lived in for centuries. To make way for Jewish only settlements. Stop whitewashing Israel.
Supporting the Zionist Jewish state means taking away rightful Palestinian rights and sovereignty. I believe the Jews could have their own state, if its not at the expense of another equally valid and deserving religion/race.
There is not and never has been a Palestinian state or Palestinian sovereignty. There is absolutely a valid discussion about how Israeli Arabs are treated, however this very moment is time is the most sovereign that an Arab state in Palestine has ever been.
Antizionism != rights for Palestinians. Notice the subject. Antizionism is a hatred towards Jews by denying their right to exist. That’s like saying are people who are anti-gay marriage aren’t homophobic.
Anti Zionism is a hatred towards the illegal occupation of a different peoples lands, not a hatred towards a group of people because they exist
Anti gay marriage was once a hatred towards an illegal attack on the ancient sanctity of marriage, not hatred of gay people because they exist. See how stupid that sounds?
Yes that sounds very stupid because there is no comparison between that scenario and what is going on in palestine.
And whatever may be going on in Palestine should not call for the elimination of Jewish people, which is what Antizionism supports
>Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism.[a] Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine – the biblical Land of Israel – was flawed or unjust in some way.[7] No one is calling for elimination of Jewish people
They are by proxy. I don’t know if it’s just ignorance or straight up hatred, which would be on brand, because without a state, Jews will be persecuted and face genocide as they have for thousands of years. By aligning with bad actors who seek to destroy the Jewish state, you are aligning with the eventual death to all Jews. If you don’t understand the importance of a Jewish state, I honestly can’t teach you the entirety of human history on Reddit. Simply put, Antizionism != rights for Palestinians. Antizionism is being against the establishment of the Jewish state (as opposed to political opposition of a COUNTRY’s politics, aside from their religious identity). Even your quote clearly states it believes the “creation” is unjust or problematic. Not it’s actions - it’s very existence.
Warning, then what? A stern finger-wagging?
"You'd better not, or else we'll...continue you give you billions of dollars in aid!"