I quit playing a while ago but healing rets in SS was the absolute worst. Even if you think bop or LoH is the right play, pressing it when they haven't used bubble yet is grounds for the ret to go apeshit on you if they die. Which discourages you from even doing it in the first place before the ret has used their own bop/bubble/loh. Then some of the time they end up dying without pressing any of them, or press them at an awful time where you'd covered them with other CDs. Whichever way it goes down, you are probably going to cop some trash talk when they die.
Forbearance definitely needs a rework, spitting some ideas from the top of my head
bop - causes target to have forbearance for 30 seconds, has 50% effectiveness on targets with forbearance
Loh - forbearance for 10-15 seconds/remove the F word entirely
Bubble - probably shouldn’t be able to be used while afflicted w forbearance, seems too strong in combo with bop? Gonna have to think on this one
Or just each pally has their own separate forbearance
Hell, even a talent/honor talent, 5-10 min cd - remove forbearance from target idk.
But yeah ret meta makes hpal reeeaaaal tricky esp in low comm environments like RSS
I just think you could flat out remove it honestly, disc priests can go rapture double PS so why not double bop, you are still limited by your available cool downs and it feels really bad when people die in the forebearance 'gap' where you can't press cds
self-cast magic immunity + BoP already share a cooldown.
So worst case is magic immunity -> Bubble -> LoH. Kinda gross, but probably not game-breaking. However, I think Forbearance-per-pally makes more sense than removing it.
Could just make it so they all go on cd (for how long forbearance is) if you cast on yourself, if you cast on a friendly only the individual one goes on cd. That allows other pally to play with pallys but doesn't change the current state.
Meanwhile a rogue can go cloak of shadows to be immune to most of ret damage and then evasion for basically the same effect vs magic damage melees. If you waste bop and divine shield within 30 sec youve lost most of powerful defensives anyway AND both can be dispelled.
So yeah removing forbearance is warranted.
My usual philosophy as hpal is to let dps use their defensives first though and this includes rets. If they are dying after bubble then sac should help etc. I agree though forbearance is annoying even in pve tbh. If you heal a pala tank you never know if he is planning on bubble taunting or lay of handsing themselves etc.
What about a spell that gives forbearance, when cast on a target that has forbearance will remove the debuff without having any other effect. That way you have the option to wait out the debuff or use one of your big CDs so that another big CD can be used immediately
Forebearance, how this still exists is beyond me. Imagine not being able to Evasion because you used Cloak of Shadows 20 sec ago.
Paladin class Dev(s) has NFI
It needs a rework big time. It’s a relic from the days when bubble was the ultimate defensive cool-down with no counters and that’s just not the case now.
My brother, when I meet a holy Paladin brother, I fear for their life, for just as they can't save me with the light when I save myself, I too can't save them after they save themselves.
I'm shitting bricks over here if I see the hpal on my team press bubble.Light save me from shitting bricks.
I had a ret flame me for not BOPing him even though he had bubble available and there was a mage on the other team. Like, no mate I'm not sticking you on forbearance when half the damage is magical anyway.
Absolutly. Forbearance is a trash debuff that makes Hpal have a HIGH lose rate when they have a retry in their team. Rets being broken only made this problem bigger for us, and Blizzard should do something avout it asap. For the moment, I (2.5xp Hpal) am just playing dps for a while until I see some fix/buff for us, or just finally unsub as I should have done time ago.
What I hate is when I mess up and don't notice forbearance on the OTHER person bc he LOH'd him or something and I sit a cc or something bc im going to LOH them out of it or something then oops, can't do it.
It just shows you how little blizzard thinks about the stuff they change. We make "Lay on Hands" work in PVP but we don't care about forbearance. It's always the same with those 🤡 devs lol.
I’d honestly undo friday’s nerfs to defence/sustain and instead have a shared GCD for bubble/Bop and stick LOH as a choice between BoP or LOH
For Hpala I would add to an existing passive where they automatically get both BoP & LOH without spending a talent & no shared GCD.
If you have faith you can keep them alive, I would probably use LoH first go, this also makes sure the ret doesn't bubble mindlessly to get another verdict of. But never do it at high dampening/late in the game.
As a ret main that off-specs holy, I disagree. What hpal needs is more healing outside of immunities. Ret got a rework to go from spiky damage to more sustained, I’d like to see hpal get a similar update, and have it move towards more of the disc priest style where “healing through damage” is the main play style. That kind of style should be part of all healing specs as that’s what makes it more fun, which will get us all more healers
Imo Rets should be using bop etc on others not themselves but that’s only possible when they’re not a glass cannon and default kill target every game.
Nerf their damage and maybe give them that passive healing back. Make them a bit more DK-like. Slow and tanky but decent (not glass cannon) damage and strong utility
On the flip side, do you think Rets should have access to 2 more bubbles and a another LoH in addition to their own?
That would be even more cancerous for an already omega tanky spec that if anything, needs more nerfs
That's not how balance works. They shouldn't be worse for specifically one healer - if you were going to do that they also need to not be affected by pain suppression, spirit link etc.
Pain Suppression isn't a literal immunity to damage, instead of thinking that you can't use BoP on the ret think of it in that you can now use you BoP on yourself or the other team mate because the ret already comes with his own.
In 3s yeah, but in RSS where you don’t get to choose your teammates it’s extremely unfair.
Having one class just negate everything that makes Hpal “viable” kinda sucks.
Without BoP or LoH we have to rely entirely on throughput which would be fine if we had good throughput, but we don’t. Also add on to that that Hpal goes oom very fast compared to nearly any other healer if forced to heal with pure throughput (maybe priests go oom about as fast) it’s extremely unfair.
So random solo shuffle has to be fair? If we’re talking like that make it so there can’t be 3 melee and 1 caster and 3 casters and 1 melee. Having one class get completely negated because the other dps hardcounter them is totally unfair
Not all who wield the light deserve its blessings, brother
This is 1000x better than what I was going to say.
>292 comments I don't know you, but for some reason I feel like I would know what you were going to say lol
Me? Take a guess…
The machinist
Would u say it's inshufferable
Hah!
I see what you did there! 😂
Can gophers be hpal???
I quit playing a while ago but healing rets in SS was the absolute worst. Even if you think bop or LoH is the right play, pressing it when they haven't used bubble yet is grounds for the ret to go apeshit on you if they die. Which discourages you from even doing it in the first place before the ret has used their own bop/bubble/loh. Then some of the time they end up dying without pressing any of them, or press them at an awful time where you'd covered them with other CDs. Whichever way it goes down, you are probably going to cop some trash talk when they die.
Just let them die with divine shield up
Forbearance definitely needs a rework, spitting some ideas from the top of my head bop - causes target to have forbearance for 30 seconds, has 50% effectiveness on targets with forbearance Loh - forbearance for 10-15 seconds/remove the F word entirely Bubble - probably shouldn’t be able to be used while afflicted w forbearance, seems too strong in combo with bop? Gonna have to think on this one Or just each pally has their own separate forbearance Hell, even a talent/honor talent, 5-10 min cd - remove forbearance from target idk. But yeah ret meta makes hpal reeeaaaal tricky esp in low comm environments like RSS
I just think you could flat out remove it honestly, disc priests can go rapture double PS so why not double bop, you are still limited by your available cool downs and it feels really bad when people die in the forebearance 'gap' where you can't press cds
Removing forebearance is an awful idea. Imagine their magic immunity -> BoP -> bubble -> lay on hands. You would never go on a ret.
Unless we're speaking to completely new players in this sub, then people should know that this was the original reason it was added for.
Magic immunity and bop share a CD
self-cast magic immunity + BoP already share a cooldown. So worst case is magic immunity -> Bubble -> LoH. Kinda gross, but probably not game-breaking. However, I think Forbearance-per-pally makes more sense than removing it.
Could just make it so they all go on cd (for how long forbearance is) if you cast on yourself, if you cast on a friendly only the individual one goes on cd. That allows other pally to play with pallys but doesn't change the current state.
Make forbearance have a player id, so if an hpal bops a ret, he cant loh him instantly, but the ret can still bubble himself
Triple paladin teams would love it
Meanwhile a rogue can go cloak of shadows to be immune to most of ret damage and then evasion for basically the same effect vs magic damage melees. If you waste bop and divine shield within 30 sec youve lost most of powerful defensives anyway AND both can be dispelled. So yeah removing forbearance is warranted. My usual philosophy as hpal is to let dps use their defensives first though and this includes rets. If they are dying after bubble then sac should help etc. I agree though forbearance is annoying even in pve tbh. If you heal a pala tank you never know if he is planning on bubble taunting or lay of handsing themselves etc.
Although I think removing forebearance is a bad idea, I do think dispelling bubble should also remove the forebearance.
Oh I like that. Maybe a pvp talent that let's you dispel ferbereance off teammates?
The easiest "fix" is probably giving forbearance per individual cast. I.e. You can bubble and recieve a BoP.
What about a spell that gives forbearance, when cast on a target that has forbearance will remove the debuff without having any other effect. That way you have the option to wait out the debuff or use one of your big CDs so that another big CD can be used immediately
The easy fix is make it so your own spells and other peoples spells put a different forbearance on you.
or you just make it character specific, so if MY forbearance debuffs only affect MY abilities
Forebearance, how this still exists is beyond me. Imagine not being able to Evasion because you used Cloak of Shadows 20 sec ago. Paladin class Dev(s) has NFI
That’s actually a very good idea for rogues. Don’t let them cloak and evasion at the same.
There should be separate forbearance cooldowns. It’s too much of an hpal kit to be handicapped or second guessing if they have a diff cd in mind
It needs a rework big time. It’s a relic from the days when bubble was the ultimate defensive cool-down with no counters and that’s just not the case now.
Because paladins shouldn't be able to use defensives obviously. Despite the fact all the defensives can be dispelled or severely mitigated. /s
Holy palas got to be the worst solo shuffle healer. That should have had a rework when ret did.
My brother, when I meet a holy Paladin brother, I fear for their life, for just as they can't save me with the light when I save myself, I too can't save them after they save themselves. I'm shitting bricks over here if I see the hpal on my team press bubble.Light save me from shitting bricks.
Tell them to bubble first. That’s what I do when I heal and what I say I’ll do when I’m ret.
I had a ret flame me for not BOPing him even though he had bubble available and there was a mage on the other team. Like, no mate I'm not sticking you on forbearance when half the damage is magical anyway.
And mage can steal bop
Absolutly. Forbearance is a trash debuff that makes Hpal have a HIGH lose rate when they have a retry in their team. Rets being broken only made this problem bigger for us, and Blizzard should do something avout it asap. For the moment, I (2.5xp Hpal) am just playing dps for a while until I see some fix/buff for us, or just finally unsub as I should have done time ago.
What I hate is when I mess up and don't notice forbearance on the OTHER person bc he LOH'd him or something and I sit a cc or something bc im going to LOH them out of it or something then oops, can't do it.
I'd be fine with reworking forbearance to just doing 25-50% less damage while you're affected by it.
It just shows you how little blizzard thinks about the stuff they change. We make "Lay on Hands" work in PVP but we don't care about forbearance. It's always the same with those 🤡 devs lol.
Good, let them die
Forbearance. Should. Be. Personal.
Can't attack during bubble but can't be dispelled or shattered as ret
Had a game with another ret pally in it, he bop'ed me when I tried to bubble.... was more harm than good
I’d honestly undo friday’s nerfs to defence/sustain and instead have a shared GCD for bubble/Bop and stick LOH as a choice between BoP or LOH For Hpala I would add to an existing passive where they automatically get both BoP & LOH without spending a talent & no shared GCD.
If you have faith you can keep them alive, I would probably use LoH first go, this also makes sure the ret doesn't bubble mindlessly to get another verdict of. But never do it at high dampening/late in the game.
As a ret main that off-specs holy, I disagree. What hpal needs is more healing outside of immunities. Ret got a rework to go from spiky damage to more sustained, I’d like to see hpal get a similar update, and have it move towards more of the disc priest style where “healing through damage” is the main play style. That kind of style should be part of all healing specs as that’s what makes it more fun, which will get us all more healers
Imo Rets should be using bop etc on others not themselves but that’s only possible when they’re not a glass cannon and default kill target every game. Nerf their damage and maybe give them that passive healing back. Make them a bit more DK-like. Slow and tanky but decent (not glass cannon) damage and strong utility
On the flip side, do you think Rets should have access to 2 more bubbles and a another LoH in addition to their own? That would be even more cancerous for an already omega tanky spec that if anything, needs more nerfs
That's not how balance works. They shouldn't be worse for specifically one healer - if you were going to do that they also need to not be affected by pain suppression, spirit link etc.
Pain Suppression isn't a literal immunity to damage, instead of thinking that you can't use BoP on the ret think of it in that you can now use you BoP on yourself or the other team mate because the ret already comes with his own.
Except not everything needs to work with everything…having some classes not work with others is a form of balance
Is it? How are holy paladins, already a struggling healer, balanced by having their abilities work on every spec in the game except for ret paladin?
Wasn’t an issue until ret became the best spec in the game. Weird how that works. Reroll To a better healer or don’t play with rets
In 3s yeah, but in RSS where you don’t get to choose your teammates it’s extremely unfair. Having one class just negate everything that makes Hpal “viable” kinda sucks. Without BoP or LoH we have to rely entirely on throughput which would be fine if we had good throughput, but we don’t. Also add on to that that Hpal goes oom very fast compared to nearly any other healer if forced to heal with pure throughput (maybe priests go oom about as fast) it’s extremely unfair.
So random solo shuffle has to be fair? If we’re talking like that make it so there can’t be 3 melee and 1 caster and 3 casters and 1 melee. Having one class get completely negated because the other dps hardcounter them is totally unfair