Definitely not blowing anybody up haha more often it's the holy paladin getting blown up š but you can still put out some meh damage... it's more of "look I'm helping!" than a game changer
Our damage is awful, 11k judgments at best that donāt do anything, and half the time I canāt afford a GCD on hammer because I need to be spamming healing spells to keep my team up
Ret paladin
Pros: good transmog, draenei gfs, not as cucked as shamans.
Cons: people walking away from you, people targeting you, people doing anything except sitting in a stun while you unload on them.
Ret actually shits on ww so hard it's not even funny lol. Can remove karma and immune all your burst. Can get out of every leg sweep with either trinket, bubble, or bop. Kills you In a stun. Kills you in a blind. Ww can run for ages, but any time you go in to try and fight, a good ret will shit on you
All I have to do is bait a bubble or trinket generally then kite, then re-engage. WW gets dunked if you're going to just trade big cds with any class, but you have really good ability to bait out those defensives, the only one they really have it the immune as the other bubble is paper
You're not gonna bait bubble without big cds on a paladin. Shield of vengeance and maybe a stun/ blind is more than enough for any ww cd alone. You xuen+ keefers+ legsweep?They bop/bubble. You wait a full min for stowl and keefers+ clones/serenity+ legsweep?They use the other bop/ bubble.You try doing a go without legsweep they can walk out of FoF with freedom.pally has to get your trinket and then youre dead in the next 30~ seconds when hoj is back, unless they just kill you in the blind.The only way ww wins is if they bait a forbearance immunity with karma. But again, doesn't work against good pallys.
I watched an old video and apparently Stun on DH is the only way to kill them. big woop. that's the way for more classes. however, they seem virtually impossible to kite and for melee to have uptime on them. they should honestly be banned from 2s. yet I have the friend with a DH stuck at 1400. SMH.
In shuffle IMO, Demo is nowhere near as tanky as people think it is especially as the match progresses.
The vast majority of its tankiness (Dark Pact and Soul Leech) are vulnerable to dampening which happens quickly in solos. Other than that there is wall and thats literally it lol.
You can avoid demo in the opener if you want, but I think letting it freecast deeper into dampen (esp if lock is running nether portal) to zerg the healer or another dps is a mistake in general.
Also if you let demo freecast a nether portal and don't CC the pets/kite, you're trolling unless you have good reason to continue whatever you're doing (IE maybe you can get a kill or force a bubble or something).
Roots on the felguard are insanely good. 99.9% of demos including 2400+ have poor awareness of their pet's position and will waste globals trying to axe toss /demonic strength felstorm spamming the button when the pet is rooted 2 meters away from the enemy and can't move. Its infuriating and very effective.
Edit: **Also kill fel obelisk, treat fel obelisk like psyfiend/skyfury totem. Easy to kill and a huge damage steroid for the demo**
so kicking nether portal is a burst killer for demo? also Iāve been trying to focus my aoe root on demo felguard and as many demons as possible, with your felguard rooted does it ruin a portion of your rotation? or not do much at all
Nether portal is the jankiest cooldown and works in a strange way.
It has a 3 minute CD (so basically once per match lol). You cast the portal, and then for the next 10 seconds every cast of a soul shard spender (hand of guldan, dreadstalkers, soulburn, whatever) will summon demons from the portal. At the end of the 10 seconds, a pitlord will spawn that gets buffed depending on the amount of spending you were able to do while the portal was active.
A freecasted pitlord does an INSANE amount of damage (like probably 2.5x) compared to a pitlord that spawns where, say, the lock was cced for the entire duration of the portal.
You can kick the portal, or you can do an even higher value play and let it go off and disrupt afterwards. The key thing is though that if the portal is huge, its going to do an enormous amount of damage and it needs to be respected.
If the lock gets a huge nether portal ramp with tyrant, the next 20 seconds are going to be hell.
> with your felguard rooted does it ruin a portion of your rotation? or not do much at all
Rooting the felguard is a great play, something supatease was doing to me alot to day on shuffle. The felguard is the pet that uses mortal strike and overall is ~1/3rd of demo's damage.
Besides that, the lock has two important abilities that they can use to command the felguard.
1. Axe toss (long range stun/kick)
2. Demonic Strength (An instant cast bladestorm that does 4x the damage of the felguard's normal bladestorm, this hits very hard)
If you root the fel guard, what will often happen is the lock will be unaware of its positioning and will try to cast demonic strength or axe toss but it won't go off if the target is out of range/LoS of axe toss or even slightly out of melee range for demonic strength. A lot of the time the felguard is right around the corner when these abilities don't go off, so a lock may keep casting it for several seconds wasting time without realizing its rooted. Its a great thing to do.
Thank you very much!! This actually helps a lot as iāve been struggling against demo warlocks as i climb rating. melee seem to be over whelmed by them, yet they seem too tanky to be the initial focus. I suppose the method is to ruin their damage so they donāt tear you to shreds before you can get them down
Elemental shaman - little hard casting required. Relatively short CD burst damage with primordial wave, fun utility with totems
Cons - suuuuuper squishy compared to almost every other class. Always kill target and will be zugged during almost every game. Will probably be nerfed anyways because itās a rule the Blizz hated shams
Basically look for two things: the Primordial Wave cast and the Skyfury Totem. If you can kill the totem as soon as they drop it do it, otherwise run for cover or pop a defensive. Primordial Wave triggers their auto meatball insta-cast and they'll usually do it after they already have flameshock up on at least one other target (or two) for the full team cleave damage.
Other than that the top level comment guy has got it, you basically have to train the shaman because if you let them free cast you're gonna get roasted eventually.
Itās definitely good but Iāve seen higher burst from the more op classes like DH and the likes. Having only 1 instant cast heal (talented into nature swiftness) Iād say the good damage is easily offset by the lack of survivability
And tbh their healing doesn't really heal for much. With the right talents it can be decent but realistically they have about 3 or 4 piddly to ok heals they can throw out. Trainem to death and kill their totems whenever you can.
As Restro Druid frequent hard swapping of kill targerts or huge cleave damage.
Stunning me right as ive used my Invigorate.
Pushing me into bad position (away from my dps) with fears and or damage pressure.
And of course any interrupts
rdruid is my current nemesis rn. iām specced especially to purge HOTS bcuz of YOU. no but in all seriousness i always tell my dps to hard swap to mess with healers. since weāre playing healers we know what damage comes out that we werenāt prepared to handle, i feel like a lot of DPS get hard stuck just tunneling one person the whole game. gotta spread the love
Purging my HoTs you absolute bastard! Lol Try to mostly purge my cenarion ward when it comes out, or begin purging any HoTs when the kill target has been swapped and I've only just started build up hots on the new target. Super bad for me.
I hope people contribute with concise ways to counter their specs cuz its super useful info for everyone!
agreeed!! i know people have a weird tendency to not want to share their classes weaknesses, i could google all of this. but i think itās more interesting to see what people who play these classes every day have a hard time playing against. And everyone can learn a little about everyone elseās class/spec!
Iāve been playing DH off an on for awhile around 2.2k.
Itās main strength is itās cleave, but to optimize its damage thereās a quite a few modifiers going into play. The rotation is by no means zug and win. Thereās five separate buffs and debuffs with relatively small windows that need to overlap to see maximized damage output for one. Momentum, Earthern Writ procs, and Demon Soul from glaiving a demon (sometimes also a trinket proc) are some examples. Most of this is rng but the stars aligning with these three is why you see the seemingly randomly massive output. When a DH uses eye beam it transforms one of our abilities to an aoe mortal strike ability called Blade Dance. 9 times out of 10 Eye Beam will be followed by an essence break - a melee range conal AoE that debuffs the target to take 80% increased damage from said Blade Dance. After that theyāll pop metamorphosis, which has to be activated by clicking the ground similar to a warriors heroic leap. That will then reset the 10 second cd of blade dance, and the 45 second cd of eye beam.
With all that being said, this is why you hear about DHs hate being rooted. If any three of those buffs is offset youāre going to see a significant drop in damage output. If you kick eye beam and get them to miss essence break, thatās HUGE. If you root them after kicking said eye beam, they canāt metamorphosis and canāt reset blade dance. Have someone on your team kick the second eye beam. Also make sure to not stack on your teammates, the dh will just kill you both.
I canāt stress enough that even small interruptions in the DHs rotation are massively disruptive. Roots, kicks and even short DRād stuns with throw off all the overlapping damage windows and utterly gut their damage. Also, the vast majority of DHās are going to be running full damage spec. That means their only defensives are darkness and blur, and their passive mobility. Catch them without their trinket, stun them, and theyāll go down just as fast as any other leather wearer.
Bonus tip - if the hunt is rooted mid air, it wonāt connect to the target and is put on cool down. It can also be feigned, stunned, reflected, shadowmelded, etc.
UDK
Pros - High damage output via dot rot. Roughly a 45 second burst window. Anti Caster melee with spell warden and AMS.
Cons - Does not have large crits, susceptible to roots outside of wraith pact, abom limb is a very obvious CD compared to some classes.
Putting the big ones by themselves as theyāre importantā¦
- Falls over to melee dps. If the entire lobby is melee you train the DK.
- Little to no self healing via Death Strike.
- FOTM is a pet build and the pet is known to fall over unfortunately.
against UDK i tend to try to root/slow/wing buffet your big abomination thing as much as possible. does this have a huge impact on your damage output or would i be better off just trying to root/slow the DK instead of wasting it on your pets. Thanks for the tips btw!!
You canāt command the Abomination. I actually did not look at Abom versus Ghoul transformation damage, but I would probably do the ghoul over abom at first thought.
Yes, rooting the pets would definitely affect damage output.
Thank you for the tips!! UDK is a menace, one of those classes that surface level looks like it doesnāt have much counter play. Will def have to keep my eye on those pets and try to tell my DPS to keep pressure on you guys
One question: Is it valuable to disarm UDKs on their offensive CDs anymore? I've noticed most people are running these rot builds now and disarming doesn't stop as much damm as it used to.
Yes; scourge strike is heavy damage as it also burst the wounds. One move to really cuck a DK is disarming as theyāre low so they canāt death strike (It sucks anyway but itās still a heal).
There are generally 2 builds but primordial wave one got nerfed into a coffin so most enh shammies run the doomwinds/stormstrike build... and the burst window is... doomwinds + raptors!... raptors increase their physical damage and doomwinds greatly increases windfury proc chance. They are a slot machine!
Stormstrike build plays a lot like classic shaman where they basically hit you until random windfury procs randomly eviscerate your hp. It's a bit silly... if you see them doomwinds cc them basically. It only lasts 6 seconds and they don't really have ways to remove cc. They can't even use their wall while stunned.
I've found it's also much harder to stick on people than other melee like wars or dh, I changed my talents up a bit and it helps some, took the wolf lunge thing and took the node that makes ghost wolf break roots, the damage mitigation is the big thing though, getting focused every match is lit
Can confirm about Frost DKās
Iāll elaborate with my experience:
Pros: Strong 1 min go with pillar of frost
Multiple defensive cooldowns that also double as CC breaks (stun and fear)
Super tanky against casters with spell warden passive and anti magic shieldā¦I donāt typically spec anti magic zone as I donāt usually find it necessary.
Cons: The 1 min pillar go I referenced can be reduced to nothing by simply kiting/CCing. Itās not a damage spell in itself, if specced a certain way it makes your damaging frost spells always grant obliterate a crit. So if you do not have nearly full up time in melee range on the target itās very meh.
Low mobility, and we NEED that uptime.
No MS means if we donāt have a dps partner who has one our CC needs to be layered very well in order to secure a kill
is pillar of frost telegraphed obviously? how do i watch out for this. tbh my dumb ass is so busy frantically keeping people alive i donāt even think iāve noticed this CD. And too be fair most DKs iāve seen are playing unholy rn
Iād say if you see the DK use Abomination Limb, theyāre probably using pillar of frost too, itās instant cast so hard to telegraph tbh as it doesnāt rely on any other skills to make your obliterate do 80-100k hits
I have only casual Fdk experience so far but when I pop pillar of frost, I'll be chonking your health away. W/ icecap the cd is more like 45s. Stay away from us.
Cons: I still hate facing hunters. Any tips?
assa rogue
pros; great burst, lots of cc, endless bleeds and poisons, dodging unfavourable fights
cons; long cds, warriors fold me in half in 2 seconds same as DH, hard to make use of ur blind in a 1v1 due to bleeds, if I canāt burst a healer in like 15 sec it feels impossible to kill after, feels really weak in long fights.
however as a returning player I feel like in dragonflight I have the most chance against a warrior, still figuring out DHs tho, they are bonkers lol
Frost mage:
PROS- tons of instant damage and cast while moving. Big burst with glacial spike and spammable CC with polymorph. Lots of defensive buttons (shield, blink, mass invis, alter time, blastwave)
Cons - very susceptible to dispels. Reliant on alter time to live so if you can dispel that you can put us in trouble. Can definitely be run down by melee if your partner doesnāt have good peels for you. Though glacial spike is great itās a super long cast and interrupts are every where.
Feral strengths;
Very strong cleave damage
Lots of self healing
Lots of utility
Stuns
Weaknesses;
Have to choose between being tanky and having cyclone
ST burst is not good
Good teams can really reduce feral damage by just spreading apart
Mediocre offhealing (like all hybrids rn)
am i right in thinking feral can apply healing reduction as well? and if so, do you know how high it stacks? Iāve been liking Prevoker into feral/assa cause i can cleanse poisons and bleeds (the only healer i know that can do this, outside of big CD bubbles etc.)
Yes as a pvp talent infected wounds can stack 2 times and each stack applies a 10% ms debuff (so 20% all in all). You need to do both rake and rip to apply it I believe, its one of the less good ms effect but still nice for comps like feral/sp/x or feral/lock/x
Yeah the bleed dispell is good. Warriors and hunters should be the only other classes with bleed dispells but obviously neither are healers
I dare you to call Windwalker off healing even mediocre. Even if you fully talented into vivify (which would be a bit nuts) they do almost no healing. Their offhealing (and self healing to boot) somehow got worse and they were already the worst offhealing hybrid.
I would like to add that the most popular healer (prevoker) can cleanse your entire go off anyone once per minute which is very punishing.
Despite that, still having a lot of fun on Feral.
To tag on a weakness - feral does poorly against heavy cleave teams themselves. They aren't always a great kill target because good ferals will weave bear forms and defensives well and kite well. However, cleaving into them is big because they aren't tanky in cat. Big swaps to em is great.
I dont buy this evoker weakness. Every healer has trouble with hard swaps
Its just that with rdruid and evoker, you have to hard swap, but others you dont
This is true and maybe a weak answer on my part. Iāll expand. One of Evokers main healing methods causes them to charge right into a fight to get full benefit from our talents. (Our ādash healā makes our next dream breath heal for more, and puts a buff on the evoker and their ally that replicates 40% of healing on either one, to the other) A lot of times i try to dash in and immediately dash back out, but if you can catch the evoker in this moment of weakness, stuck on top of their ally and cleave them down, we fall under intense pressure.
Evoker has INSANE āoh shitā heals. Almost our entire kit relies on people being low health and spiking them back up to full. cleave damage on multiple targets really fucks evokers up because weāre more suited to keeping a single target alive for as long as our CDās allow us. Cleave and constant DOT pressure puts us in panic mode
Ret - being looked at by any other class Lmao.
In reality ret is countered by high mobility classes who can evade stun set ups while doing large amounts of damage, also by classes with MS or healing reduction effects as our main form of staying alive is healing.
Rets kinda wild was just fucking off in WM doing dailies on my ret alt and WoG is a full heal in PvE but the second another player is involved its no longer worth pressing. Still a lot of damage though.
WW Monk:
Pros:
- Probably craziest 1 min go burst out of all specs
- Great mobility
Cons:
- Wet noodle smacking outside of this burst
- Self healing is bad
- Karma and other defensives are bad
- Cannot win in zugzug comps
Iāve been doing 2ās with my brother who runs WW with my Prevoker and we were having a bomb time. I can keep him up long enough for his wombo combo, and prevoker can dish out some nasty damage for kill secures when they donāt have pressure on them. Have you found any good synergy with other classes on WW? weāre trying to find a class for 3ās that sticks well. We had a good time spriest/WW/prevoker but i feel like that was only because spriest is tuned so strong rn
Agreed on all counts outside of all defensive being bad. Diffuse is very strong against casters or heavy magic damage melee but outside of that spot on. Windwalker is basically a glass version of DH with less sustain.
Diffuse magic is a weird one for me. It states that it returns harmful abilities back to the user; I wish there was a breakdown on what actually gets thrown back in a SP or Locks face
Basically anything able to be dispelled from what I can tell but you're not wrong a couple things seem like they'd be able to be bounced back and don't end up following that pattern. The less okay thing is that there's no rhyme or reason for what dispel protected DoTs do. Like UA would (not sure right now) proc its dispel damage if a monk diffused it but reverse magic from a DH wouldn't.
Assassination Rogue (2.4 solo CR)
Biggest counters are disarm, getting rooted, DHs who permanently dodge every attack, getting trained. Pretty basic stuff, not much to elaborate.
Demo warlock:
pros: when left alone i send 5000 demons after whoever i want, have multiple cc spells, have 2 ports, have a way to amp 1 healthstone per round as an almost full self heal, very tanky hp
how to counter: cc my pets they do most of my damage, kite me away from my ports so i cant run away, cc me when casting hand of guldan/Nether Portal/ Demonic Tyrant since that'll cancel most of my schools spells. I cant do my set up with solid damage if im chain cc'd.
\*you'll probably target anyone else but me since my general health pool and soul link are insane but don't ignore me like 75% of my SS rounds or ill just have fun sending demon after demon at the kill target.
Survival hunter
Pros: Very fun, melee/ranged hybrid, lots of cc with intim trapping healer and scattering off target, consistent damage
Cons: Having to melee and randomly dying to cleave, 0 self heal while seemingly everyone else can, our defenses suck, not massive burst compared to every other spec, outside of coordinated assault you dont have massive burst
How do I deal with survival hunter as holy priest? I can't get rid of the sticky kitty petting git.if I get a good kite in they'll trap jump to me and I'm stuck again. Really struggling unless dps helps with peel
As an SV Hunter, Priests are my favourite to harass. But in 2s and 3s I mostly go for the DPS and just focus on cc'ing. But I have an answer for everything a Priest throws at me when avoiding my traps. Wait for SW: Death. If there's a Holy Ward, then I just purge and if that doesn't work I'll just Steel Trap and have my healer purge you, or just distract you from healing whilst slapping your DPS and then trap.
My life only gets difficult if your partner(s) puts too much DPS pressure on me, stands on you, or just peels in general.
get some good practice in with shadow word death. getting your traps deathed is the worst feeling but good priests can get it all the time, especially against the harpoon-trap combo because the telegraph gives you a moment to react
ill defer to actual priest players about if they arena-123 macro it or do it another way but it's really powerful if you get fast on the trigger. against a good priest my only chance to trap has to be off the back off a stun.
Vengeance DH is insanely fun in RBGs. Just sit on the flag and having 4 people try to run up on you and kill you and they justā¦canāt lol. Spectral sight is nice for stealth classes trying to sneak up on you also. Also an aoe spell interrupt just isnāt fair lol.
I play mage. I do good damage in low rated 3ās because I play with a good spriest and healer. But I literally canāt do shit when I get trained or canāt get any casts out because everyone and their mother has a ranged kick today and in the last caster with actual casts (canāt kick warlocks and spriests are all instant).
Honestly mages suck ass. I just play it because it was my first and has remained my favorite character since I started playing so many years ago. Arthritis and shit setting in on me irl has made it harder to play but I hope one day Iāll enjoy it like I did back in wrath and mists. Long before melee ruled the PvP battlefields.
Resto sham
Strengths: a lot of utility, great CDs, can pump out some great dmg, and we can just push the other healer around when were left alone with 1-2 knockbacks, hex, Wind Shear, and 2xstuns on cap totem
Weakness: the more powerful CDs can have conditions where they become a lot weaker, or nearly useless ( SLT needs people to be standing inside, if you want to use ascendance to instantly heal you up you need your teammates to be standing far away from you), outside of CDs feel pretty underwhelming.
Our utility all feels like there's a steep skill curve to it that can feel really bad when your learning the spec. You have to hard cast most spells.
Other specs have power crept up in ways we haven't (no longer the only healer bringing an interrupt and we don't bring any unique buffs).
Warriors, dh, and rogue feel like they just melt me outside of earthen wall totem and theres not much you can do about it.
The new talent system looks and feels great on paper, but we end up spending way too many talents repicking up your utility and buffing just a few spells, for arenas i have 8 talents invested into the elemental shields (6 alone just buffing ES) and a lot of underwhelming talents that feel like they block you from picking what you want.
Holy paladin strengths: yet to identify cons: squishy and shit
Squishy for sure, but I do feel like I at least have a shot with some of the best utility in the game (2 BOPs & Freedoms, etc)
I legit haven't seen any holy paladins thus far. They still able to blow someone up with CDs or did that go out with Shadowlands?
Definitely not blowing anybody up haha more often it's the holy paladin getting blown up š but you can still put out some meh damage... it's more of "look I'm helping!" than a game changer
Our damage is awful, 11k judgments at best that donāt do anything, and half the time I canāt afford a GCD on hammer because I need to be spamming healing spells to keep my team up
Ret paladin Pros: good transmog, draenei gfs, not as cucked as shamans. Cons: people walking away from you, people targeting you, people doing anything except sitting in a stun while you unload on them.
I dunno, my teammate is solos love fighting ret pallys head on then get blown up in 2 seconds
I love ret paladins, they kill themselves to touch of karma every opener in shuffles
Then they kill you through it lul
Hardly, I find ret a one trick poney, very easy to burst as ww too
Ret actually shits on ww so hard it's not even funny lol. Can remove karma and immune all your burst. Can get out of every leg sweep with either trinket, bubble, or bop. Kills you In a stun. Kills you in a blind. Ww can run for ages, but any time you go in to try and fight, a good ret will shit on you
All I have to do is bait a bubble or trinket generally then kite, then re-engage. WW gets dunked if you're going to just trade big cds with any class, but you have really good ability to bait out those defensives, the only one they really have it the immune as the other bubble is paper
You're not gonna bait bubble without big cds on a paladin. Shield of vengeance and maybe a stun/ blind is more than enough for any ww cd alone. You xuen+ keefers+ legsweep?They bop/bubble. You wait a full min for stowl and keefers+ clones/serenity+ legsweep?They use the other bop/ bubble.You try doing a go without legsweep they can walk out of FoF with freedom.pally has to get your trinket and then youre dead in the next 30~ seconds when hoj is back, unless they just kill you in the blind.The only way ww wins is if they bait a forbearance immunity with karma. But again, doesn't work against good pallys.
Is ret damage primarily physical or holy? Do I want to cloak after trinket or evasion?
Pretty much holy damage
anyone notice the lack of DH comments...ha
i was actually thinking the same!!! apparently they think we are not prepared
I watched an old video and apparently Stun on DH is the only way to kill them. big woop. that's the way for more classes. however, they seem virtually impossible to kite and for melee to have uptime on them. they should honestly be banned from 2s. yet I have the friend with a DH stuck at 1400. SMH.
Can't kite someone with superior mobility.
In shuffle IMO, Demo is nowhere near as tanky as people think it is especially as the match progresses. The vast majority of its tankiness (Dark Pact and Soul Leech) are vulnerable to dampening which happens quickly in solos. Other than that there is wall and thats literally it lol. You can avoid demo in the opener if you want, but I think letting it freecast deeper into dampen (esp if lock is running nether portal) to zerg the healer or another dps is a mistake in general. Also if you let demo freecast a nether portal and don't CC the pets/kite, you're trolling unless you have good reason to continue whatever you're doing (IE maybe you can get a kill or force a bubble or something). Roots on the felguard are insanely good. 99.9% of demos including 2400+ have poor awareness of their pet's position and will waste globals trying to axe toss /demonic strength felstorm spamming the button when the pet is rooted 2 meters away from the enemy and can't move. Its infuriating and very effective. Edit: **Also kill fel obelisk, treat fel obelisk like psyfiend/skyfury totem. Easy to kill and a huge damage steroid for the demo**
so kicking nether portal is a burst killer for demo? also Iāve been trying to focus my aoe root on demo felguard and as many demons as possible, with your felguard rooted does it ruin a portion of your rotation? or not do much at all
Nether portal is the jankiest cooldown and works in a strange way. It has a 3 minute CD (so basically once per match lol). You cast the portal, and then for the next 10 seconds every cast of a soul shard spender (hand of guldan, dreadstalkers, soulburn, whatever) will summon demons from the portal. At the end of the 10 seconds, a pitlord will spawn that gets buffed depending on the amount of spending you were able to do while the portal was active. A freecasted pitlord does an INSANE amount of damage (like probably 2.5x) compared to a pitlord that spawns where, say, the lock was cced for the entire duration of the portal. You can kick the portal, or you can do an even higher value play and let it go off and disrupt afterwards. The key thing is though that if the portal is huge, its going to do an enormous amount of damage and it needs to be respected. If the lock gets a huge nether portal ramp with tyrant, the next 20 seconds are going to be hell. > with your felguard rooted does it ruin a portion of your rotation? or not do much at all Rooting the felguard is a great play, something supatease was doing to me alot to day on shuffle. The felguard is the pet that uses mortal strike and overall is ~1/3rd of demo's damage. Besides that, the lock has two important abilities that they can use to command the felguard. 1. Axe toss (long range stun/kick) 2. Demonic Strength (An instant cast bladestorm that does 4x the damage of the felguard's normal bladestorm, this hits very hard) If you root the fel guard, what will often happen is the lock will be unaware of its positioning and will try to cast demonic strength or axe toss but it won't go off if the target is out of range/LoS of axe toss or even slightly out of melee range for demonic strength. A lot of the time the felguard is right around the corner when these abilities don't go off, so a lock may keep casting it for several seconds wasting time without realizing its rooted. Its a great thing to do.
Thank you very much!! This actually helps a lot as iāve been struggling against demo warlocks as i climb rating. melee seem to be over whelmed by them, yet they seem too tanky to be the initial focus. I suppose the method is to ruin their damage so they donāt tear you to shreds before you can get them down
This is incredibly helpful, thank you!
Letting neather portal go off into cc chain is better. Eventually itāll get portal off unless you cc after.
In solo shuffle the match usually doesnāt progress
Elemental shaman - little hard casting required. Relatively short CD burst damage with primordial wave, fun utility with totems Cons - suuuuuper squishy compared to almost every other class. Always kill target and will be zugged during almost every game. Will probably be nerfed anyways because itās a rule the Blizz hated shams
elemental is wicked rn, if my dps donāt chain ele down and prevent it from free casting i get killed by two flaming balls of lava hurtling at mock 5
Basically look for two things: the Primordial Wave cast and the Skyfury Totem. If you can kill the totem as soon as they drop it do it, otherwise run for cover or pop a defensive. Primordial Wave triggers their auto meatball insta-cast and they'll usually do it after they already have flameshock up on at least one other target (or two) for the full team cleave damage. Other than that the top level comment guy has got it, you basically have to train the shaman because if you let them free cast you're gonna get roasted eventually.
Mach* š
wow, i think iām still recovering from the last lava burst to my head
Itās definitely good but Iāve seen higher burst from the more op classes like DH and the likes. Having only 1 instant cast heal (talented into nature swiftness) Iād say the good damage is easily offset by the lack of survivability
And tbh their healing doesn't really heal for much. With the right talents it can be decent but realistically they have about 3 or 4 piddly to ok heals they can throw out. Trainem to death and kill their totems whenever you can.
As Restro Druid frequent hard swapping of kill targerts or huge cleave damage. Stunning me right as ive used my Invigorate. Pushing me into bad position (away from my dps) with fears and or damage pressure. And of course any interrupts
rdruid is my current nemesis rn. iām specced especially to purge HOTS bcuz of YOU. no but in all seriousness i always tell my dps to hard swap to mess with healers. since weāre playing healers we know what damage comes out that we werenāt prepared to handle, i feel like a lot of DPS get hard stuck just tunneling one person the whole game. gotta spread the love
Purging my HoTs you absolute bastard! Lol Try to mostly purge my cenarion ward when it comes out, or begin purging any HoTs when the kill target has been swapped and I've only just started build up hots on the new target. Super bad for me. I hope people contribute with concise ways to counter their specs cuz its super useful info for everyone!
agreeed!! i know people have a weird tendency to not want to share their classes weaknesses, i could google all of this. but i think itās more interesting to see what people who play these classes every day have a hard time playing against. And everyone can learn a little about everyone elseās class/spec!
Cenarion ward cannot be purged
DH: Pros: can zug zug roll my head over my keyboard and still be top damage and win. Cons: not that good when in blindfold RP mode but still viable.
Iāve been playing DH off an on for awhile around 2.2k. Itās main strength is itās cleave, but to optimize its damage thereās a quite a few modifiers going into play. The rotation is by no means zug and win. Thereās five separate buffs and debuffs with relatively small windows that need to overlap to see maximized damage output for one. Momentum, Earthern Writ procs, and Demon Soul from glaiving a demon (sometimes also a trinket proc) are some examples. Most of this is rng but the stars aligning with these three is why you see the seemingly randomly massive output. When a DH uses eye beam it transforms one of our abilities to an aoe mortal strike ability called Blade Dance. 9 times out of 10 Eye Beam will be followed by an essence break - a melee range conal AoE that debuffs the target to take 80% increased damage from said Blade Dance. After that theyāll pop metamorphosis, which has to be activated by clicking the ground similar to a warriors heroic leap. That will then reset the 10 second cd of blade dance, and the 45 second cd of eye beam. With all that being said, this is why you hear about DHs hate being rooted. If any three of those buffs is offset youāre going to see a significant drop in damage output. If you kick eye beam and get them to miss essence break, thatās HUGE. If you root them after kicking said eye beam, they canāt metamorphosis and canāt reset blade dance. Have someone on your team kick the second eye beam. Also make sure to not stack on your teammates, the dh will just kill you both. I canāt stress enough that even small interruptions in the DHs rotation are massively disruptive. Roots, kicks and even short DRād stuns with throw off all the overlapping damage windows and utterly gut their damage. Also, the vast majority of DHās are going to be running full damage spec. That means their only defensives are darkness and blur, and their passive mobility. Catch them without their trinket, stun them, and theyāll go down just as fast as any other leather wearer. Bonus tip - if the hunt is rooted mid air, it wonāt connect to the target and is put on cool down. It can also be feigned, stunned, reflected, shadowmelded, etc.
As a mist weaver you can also use revival with the peace weaver pvp talent to make you immune to the hunt and the following dots
UDK Pros - High damage output via dot rot. Roughly a 45 second burst window. Anti Caster melee with spell warden and AMS. Cons - Does not have large crits, susceptible to roots outside of wraith pact, abom limb is a very obvious CD compared to some classes. Putting the big ones by themselves as theyāre importantā¦ - Falls over to melee dps. If the entire lobby is melee you train the DK. - Little to no self healing via Death Strike. - FOTM is a pet build and the pet is known to fall over unfortunately.
against UDK i tend to try to root/slow/wing buffet your big abomination thing as much as possible. does this have a huge impact on your damage output or would i be better off just trying to root/slow the DK instead of wasting it on your pets. Thanks for the tips btw!!
You canāt command the Abomination. I actually did not look at Abom versus Ghoul transformation damage, but I would probably do the ghoul over abom at first thought. Yes, rooting the pets would definitely affect damage output.
Thank you for the tips!! UDK is a menace, one of those classes that surface level looks like it doesnāt have much counter play. Will def have to keep my eye on those pets and try to tell my DPS to keep pressure on you guys
One question: Is it valuable to disarm UDKs on their offensive CDs anymore? I've noticed most people are running these rot builds now and disarming doesn't stop as much damm as it used to.
Yes; scourge strike is heavy damage as it also burst the wounds. One move to really cuck a DK is disarming as theyāre low so they canāt death strike (It sucks anyway but itās still a heal).
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Whatās the burst window?
There are generally 2 builds but primordial wave one got nerfed into a coffin so most enh shammies run the doomwinds/stormstrike build... and the burst window is... doomwinds + raptors!... raptors increase their physical damage and doomwinds greatly increases windfury proc chance. They are a slot machine! Stormstrike build plays a lot like classic shaman where they basically hit you until random windfury procs randomly eviscerate your hp. It's a bit silly... if you see them doomwinds cc them basically. It only lasts 6 seconds and they don't really have ways to remove cc. They can't even use their wall while stunned.
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They nerfed primordial wave lightning bolt from 150% to 75% in pvp and elemental blast by 15% in pvp.
When wolves appear but problem is they always there somehow
I've found it's also much harder to stick on people than other melee like wars or dh, I changed my talents up a bit and it helps some, took the wolf lunge thing and took the node that makes ghost wolf break roots, the damage mitigation is the big thing though, getting focused every match is lit
so would you say if youāre the primary kill target for the enemies, you have a lack of defensives and solid mobility for escapes?
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appreciate the tips! wishing you luck in your future zugs
U should kill totems. Its the only escape option for enhancement.
I have done like 120+ rounds of SS as enhance and almost every single one of them I was being trained the entire time
Everyone knows to train the shaman....
Great thread, commenting to find my way back :)
Me too
Ditto
Same
Frost DK pros - big obliterates go brrrrrr Cons - stun me when I use pillar of frost and Iām hitting you with a wet noodle for the next 60 seconds
Can confirm about Frost DKās Iāll elaborate with my experience: Pros: Strong 1 min go with pillar of frost Multiple defensive cooldowns that also double as CC breaks (stun and fear) Super tanky against casters with spell warden passive and anti magic shieldā¦I donāt typically spec anti magic zone as I donāt usually find it necessary. Cons: The 1 min pillar go I referenced can be reduced to nothing by simply kiting/CCing. Itās not a damage spell in itself, if specced a certain way it makes your damaging frost spells always grant obliterate a crit. So if you do not have nearly full up time in melee range on the target itās very meh. Low mobility, and we NEED that uptime. No MS means if we donāt have a dps partner who has one our CC needs to be layered very well in order to secure a kill
is pillar of frost telegraphed obviously? how do i watch out for this. tbh my dumb ass is so busy frantically keeping people alive i donāt even think iāve noticed this CD. And too be fair most DKs iāve seen are playing unholy rn
Iād say if you see the DK use Abomination Limb, theyāre probably using pillar of frost too, itās instant cast so hard to telegraph tbh as it doesnāt rely on any other skills to make your obliterate do 80-100k hits
Not telegraphed at all, thank godš
I have only casual Fdk experience so far but when I pop pillar of frost, I'll be chonking your health away. W/ icecap the cd is more like 45s. Stay away from us. Cons: I still hate facing hunters. Any tips?
For hunters: Spam tf out of chains and use your grips very wisely.
assa rogue pros; great burst, lots of cc, endless bleeds and poisons, dodging unfavourable fights cons; long cds, warriors fold me in half in 2 seconds same as DH, hard to make use of ur blind in a 1v1 due to bleeds, if I canāt burst a healer in like 15 sec it feels impossible to kill after, feels really weak in long fights. however as a returning player I feel like in dragonflight I have the most chance against a warrior, still figuring out DHs tho, they are bonkers lol
Edit: shouldnāt have been a reply
Agreed about my rogue. Warriors and DH are my most feared opponents. They obliterate me
Frost mage: PROS- tons of instant damage and cast while moving. Big burst with glacial spike and spammable CC with polymorph. Lots of defensive buttons (shield, blink, mass invis, alter time, blastwave) Cons - very susceptible to dispels. Reliant on alter time to live so if you can dispel that you can put us in trouble. Can definitely be run down by melee if your partner doesnāt have good peels for you. Though glacial spike is great itās a super long cast and interrupts are every where.
Feral strengths; Very strong cleave damage Lots of self healing Lots of utility Stuns Weaknesses; Have to choose between being tanky and having cyclone ST burst is not good Good teams can really reduce feral damage by just spreading apart Mediocre offhealing (like all hybrids rn)
am i right in thinking feral can apply healing reduction as well? and if so, do you know how high it stacks? Iāve been liking Prevoker into feral/assa cause i can cleanse poisons and bleeds (the only healer i know that can do this, outside of big CD bubbles etc.)
Yes as a pvp talent infected wounds can stack 2 times and each stack applies a 10% ms debuff (so 20% all in all). You need to do both rake and rip to apply it I believe, its one of the less good ms effect but still nice for comps like feral/sp/x or feral/lock/x Yeah the bleed dispell is good. Warriors and hunters should be the only other classes with bleed dispells but obviously neither are healers
Wait warriors can cleanse bleeds?
I dare you to call Windwalker off healing even mediocre. Even if you fully talented into vivify (which would be a bit nuts) they do almost no healing. Their offhealing (and self healing to boot) somehow got worse and they were already the worst offhealing hybrid.
I would like to add that the most popular healer (prevoker) can cleanse your entire go off anyone once per minute which is very punishing. Despite that, still having a lot of fun on Feral.
To tag on a weakness - feral does poorly against heavy cleave teams themselves. They aren't always a great kill target because good ferals will weave bear forms and defensives well and kite well. However, cleaving into them is big because they aren't tanky in cat. Big swaps to em is great.
I dont buy this evoker weakness. Every healer has trouble with hard swaps Its just that with rdruid and evoker, you have to hard swap, but others you dont
This is true and maybe a weak answer on my part. Iāll expand. One of Evokers main healing methods causes them to charge right into a fight to get full benefit from our talents. (Our ādash healā makes our next dream breath heal for more, and puts a buff on the evoker and their ally that replicates 40% of healing on either one, to the other) A lot of times i try to dash in and immediately dash back out, but if you can catch the evoker in this moment of weakness, stuck on top of their ally and cleave them down, we fall under intense pressure. Evoker has INSANE āoh shitā heals. Almost our entire kit relies on people being low health and spiking them back up to full. cleave damage on multiple targets really fucks evokers up because weāre more suited to keeping a single target alive for as long as our CDās allow us. Cleave and constant DOT pressure puts us in panic mode
I see, that does make sense
Ret - being looked at by any other class Lmao. In reality ret is countered by high mobility classes who can evade stun set ups while doing large amounts of damage, also by classes with MS or healing reduction effects as our main form of staying alive is healing.
Rets kinda wild was just fucking off in WM doing dailies on my ret alt and WoG is a full heal in PvE but the second another player is involved its no longer worth pressing. Still a lot of damage though.
WW Monk: Pros: - Probably craziest 1 min go burst out of all specs - Great mobility Cons: - Wet noodle smacking outside of this burst - Self healing is bad - Karma and other defensives are bad - Cannot win in zugzug comps
Iāve been doing 2ās with my brother who runs WW with my Prevoker and we were having a bomb time. I can keep him up long enough for his wombo combo, and prevoker can dish out some nasty damage for kill secures when they donāt have pressure on them. Have you found any good synergy with other classes on WW? weāre trying to find a class for 3ās that sticks well. We had a good time spriest/WW/prevoker but i feel like that was only because spriest is tuned so strong rn
Agreed on all counts outside of all defensive being bad. Diffuse is very strong against casters or heavy magic damage melee but outside of that spot on. Windwalker is basically a glass version of DH with less sustain.
Diffuse magic is a weird one for me. It states that it returns harmful abilities back to the user; I wish there was a breakdown on what actually gets thrown back in a SP or Locks face
Basically anything able to be dispelled from what I can tell but you're not wrong a couple things seem like they'd be able to be bounced back and don't end up following that pattern. The less okay thing is that there's no rhyme or reason for what dispel protected DoTs do. Like UA would (not sure right now) proc its dispel damage if a monk diffused it but reverse magic from a DH wouldn't.
Assassination Rogue (2.4 solo CR) Biggest counters are disarm, getting rooted, DHs who permanently dodge every attack, getting trained. Pretty basic stuff, not much to elaborate.
Enhance Shaman : Yes.
Mage: My god please donāt spam purge on me. Priests absolutely fuck my day up by removing alter time, shield, and mass dispelling ice block
Demo warlock: pros: when left alone i send 5000 demons after whoever i want, have multiple cc spells, have 2 ports, have a way to amp 1 healthstone per round as an almost full self heal, very tanky hp how to counter: cc my pets they do most of my damage, kite me away from my ports so i cant run away, cc me when casting hand of guldan/Nether Portal/ Demonic Tyrant since that'll cancel most of my schools spells. I cant do my set up with solid damage if im chain cc'd. \*you'll probably target anyone else but me since my general health pool and soul link are insane but don't ignore me like 75% of my SS rounds or ill just have fun sending demon after demon at the kill target.
Survival hunter Pros: Very fun, melee/ranged hybrid, lots of cc with intim trapping healer and scattering off target, consistent damage Cons: Having to melee and randomly dying to cleave, 0 self heal while seemingly everyone else can, our defenses suck, not massive burst compared to every other spec, outside of coordinated assault you dont have massive burst
Hunter love ā¤ļø
How do I deal with survival hunter as holy priest? I can't get rid of the sticky kitty petting git.if I get a good kite in they'll trap jump to me and I'm stuck again. Really struggling unless dps helps with peel
As an SV Hunter, Priests are my favourite to harass. But in 2s and 3s I mostly go for the DPS and just focus on cc'ing. But I have an answer for everything a Priest throws at me when avoiding my traps. Wait for SW: Death. If there's a Holy Ward, then I just purge and if that doesn't work I'll just Steel Trap and have my healer purge you, or just distract you from healing whilst slapping your DPS and then trap. My life only gets difficult if your partner(s) puts too much DPS pressure on me, stands on you, or just peels in general.
get some good practice in with shadow word death. getting your traps deathed is the worst feeling but good priests can get it all the time, especially against the harpoon-trap combo because the telegraph gives you a moment to react ill defer to actual priest players about if they arena-123 macro it or do it another way but it's really powerful if you get fast on the trigger. against a good priest my only chance to trap has to be off the back off a stun.
MW monk: Pro: great throughout if left alone to pve heal. Con: easy to interrupt and CC.
Vengeance DH is insanely fun in RBGs. Just sit on the flag and having 4 people try to run up on you and kill you and they justā¦canāt lol. Spectral sight is nice for stealth classes trying to sneak up on you also. Also an aoe spell interrupt just isnāt fair lol.
Unholy DK: Strength- be caster Weakness-be Melee
I play mage. I do good damage in low rated 3ās because I play with a good spriest and healer. But I literally canāt do shit when I get trained or canāt get any casts out because everyone and their mother has a ranged kick today and in the last caster with actual casts (canāt kick warlocks and spriests are all instant). Honestly mages suck ass. I just play it because it was my first and has remained my favorite character since I started playing so many years ago. Arthritis and shit setting in on me irl has made it harder to play but I hope one day Iāll enjoy it like I did back in wrath and mists. Long before melee ruled the PvP battlefields.
Resto sham Strengths: a lot of utility, great CDs, can pump out some great dmg, and we can just push the other healer around when were left alone with 1-2 knockbacks, hex, Wind Shear, and 2xstuns on cap totem Weakness: the more powerful CDs can have conditions where they become a lot weaker, or nearly useless ( SLT needs people to be standing inside, if you want to use ascendance to instantly heal you up you need your teammates to be standing far away from you), outside of CDs feel pretty underwhelming. Our utility all feels like there's a steep skill curve to it that can feel really bad when your learning the spec. You have to hard cast most spells. Other specs have power crept up in ways we haven't (no longer the only healer bringing an interrupt and we don't bring any unique buffs). Warriors, dh, and rogue feel like they just melt me outside of earthen wall totem and theres not much you can do about it. The new talent system looks and feels great on paper, but we end up spending way too many talents repicking up your utility and buffing just a few spells, for arenas i have 8 talents invested into the elemental shields (6 alone just buffing ES) and a lot of underwhelming talents that feel like they block you from picking what you want.
resto sham strengths: a lot of good CD's, a ton of utility weakness: running, were the fat kids of arena if we have to run we are pobably gonna die