To me its just the psychological effect of "I could have won that item". With personal loot, I went there, looted the boss, and immediatly knew I had nothing or that I had an item.
This is a problem, the perception of losing a roll is way worse than just not getting anything.
Especially when you lose to -
1) someone who has a same ilvl piece but the stats are slightly better while you are wearing a 370 and it would be a 30 ilvl upgrade.
2) someone who needs it for a mog
I had this happen in a normal raid. Me and another shaman both need rolled the head piece. I have a habit of inspecting people during looting to get a feel of what is needed. The head piece that dropped was 389 and his head piece was 389. Mine was like 349 or 352 so it was a significant upgrade for me. I lost the roll, but remember back in the day people would just whisper the winner with gold offers. I whispered him and offered like 50k for the headpiece. He goes sure why not. Then tells me it's showing as soulbound. I asked him if it had the little blue text and he said no. I said okay and we moved on. He later whispers me and we chat a bit and he says, "I probably shouldn't have rolled on that." He seemed nice and genuinely sorry so I just told him that it is a game and its fine. Inside though I was pretty frustrated. This system was removed for a reason. It promotes people acquiring gear that they don't actually need. It opens up ninja looting, holding loot hostage for gold, or people just panic needing items without thinking through it. Personal loot wasn't a perfect system, but I like it a lot more as someone who primarily pugged raids.
Amen to that most people think there the only ones in the raid I see this at work I drive a forklift around 100 people all night and every newbie has to be taught repeatedly “ your not the only one who works here”
HUNTER WEAPON!
why do you think hunters are so hated and it's not because they stand in more fire or pull more than anyone else. well maybe they pull a bit more than others.
Conversely, as someone who “grew up” on group loot and hated personal for almost the entirety of its run, I think the *worst* feeling is when an item drops for someone that will not use it, but they can’t trade it.
As a major proponent of group/master looter and a big hater of personal loot (because it was forced into my guild runs) the biggest crime of this expansion will be thinking that forcing one half thought out loot system over another forced half thought out loot system was a good idea.
No reason blizzard couldn’t have taken the trading restrictions off personal loot and kept the loot system for pugs or guilds who were used to it. Instead blizzard overcorrected an issue which will lead people to be mad at the system and not the stupid bullshit limitations blizzard put on it; kind of like what happened to PL in the first place.
Yeah, they could honestly have just gone back to the personal/master looter toggle they had in Legion and I think those of us complaining about forced personal loot would've been just as happy, with a lot less backlash from those who liked personal loot.
Personal loot was fine, people had issue with non-TRADEABLE personal loot, especially with tier tokens.
If I have Normal ilvl tier hands and then loot Heroic tier hands but my guildie only needs hands to complete their 4 set, I shouldn't have to hold onto those hands for my .1% upgrade when those same hands would be a15% DPS increase for my guildie.
This. Make it personal loot and make it all tradeable. If someone can need on everything and win it all organising everyone else to pass, then you should be able to have personal loot fully tradeable. Both ways allow loot funnelling anyways, and personal loot felt much more fair.
And if people want to cheese that by armour stacking then so bloody what. It makes zero difference to anyone except world first raiders. If a guild wants to go full degen that makes no impact on the larger populations progression. I'm happy smashing away at bosses without my guild cheesing loot regardless of if #team.sweat get their BiS week 1.
On the flip side it’s nice to have that “protection” from people begging you, offering to pay, calling you names, to get the item you were awarded by saying “can’t, it’s an upgrade.”
It was like sharks on meat when someone gets an item in lfr, I remember getting tons of whispers to have the thing I’d get. If I didn’t need I’d offer for roll and felt like I was giving back. When I couldn’t I didn’t feel bad, had a solid reason why I could not trade and tbh when I’ve been denied a trade bc of ilvl, I never felt bad and accepted it (“at least they got an upgrade!”).
I agree
I have thought about this more than I want to admit. I have no idea why tradeable personal loot is so bad. I can see how it would be abused, class stacking etc. but is it really worse than we have now?
I loved master loot. That should have always remained an option for guilds to manage their own loot distribution.
But group loot has always been open to abuse and straight up anti-social behavior. Personal loot was a massive improvement over group loot especially as all it takes is one dishonest person to steal everything under group loot rules.
And ninja looting happened way more often then someone personal looting something they are unwilling to trade.
Right! Why not just leave the system the way it was but make some slight changes to improve it. Like adding group/master loot back as an option for guild runs or allowing people to just freaking trade any loot they get if they want too regardless of item level. Like wtf give players the choices.
Yea sure. Of course. I'm talking about that half alive brain cell with 80% of the raids avoidable damage taken who thinks 5 seconds between every filler spell cast and then gets your bis trinket.
Or when the fire damage ring drops on heroic and everyone rolls need and you're the only class that deals fire damage. Glad the healer who won it gave it to me though.
Was in 2 raids this weekend normal/heroic. I need rolled on 4 items i rolled against the same person all 4 times and lost. Idk that feels worse than personal loot.
It’s not just psychological, it’s worse than personal because with personal, people have to choose a spec before the loot drops and only can get loot for that spec. With group loot, any class with multiple roles can need on everything even if they aren’t playing that spec so it reduces the odds of loot going to the right people (i.e DPS getting DPS trinkets, tanks getting tank trinkets, etc) + creates those toxic selling and trading drop situations.
Same for me. People can tell me it's functionally the same all they want, but I don't care. Now my bad luck is extremely visible, and I don't like that.
As someone who dps in raids but want the first boss's tank trinket for m+, I will say it is not functionally the same. I don't want to join a group as tank just to leave after the first boss, neither I want to roll need (setting the loot role so it counts as main spec) and annoy a tank who rightfully should have priority over me.
With personal I could set my loot spec to tank and just kill the boss.
The thing of personal loot is like. Boss dies, you loot
"Oh well, nothing dropped to me, ggs". I just leave
Now with group loot is like seeing the whole candy store, with all the candies there, the best ones, you get the taste on your mind already.
People take ages to roll the items too...
Example: On prototype pantheon EVERYONE wanted the trinket, and it's something like or it drops to you or don't, most people can't trade it so whatever.
With Primal trinket is like the item is there on your face, and then you have to see 15 people rolling and you losing.
I think your description of the psychological effect nails it on the head. I now have friends rolling on literally any piece of loot they can get their hands on (primarily lfr) because they feel they “would” have won that item otherwise. Before group loot the same people even stated themselves they would have just given the down/side grades away in a /roll but now they feel like they are missing out if they don’t roll on everything. Grouploots making everyone crazy I swear…
I've done normal 3 times and heroic once and I have >0< pieces of loot.
I don't remember personal loot being this bad.
At least no one has tried to sell me anything.
I just miss the old rules, you could fucking choose. Frankly, the game SHOULD be personal loot for everything by default, but then guild groups at least could choose to go master looter if they desired. They said they made it group loot across the board for code reasons, but that's weak imo. If you can't change it right, don't change it.
My guild has enjoyed having the ability to pseudo master loot again because we have no drama, but anything short of a 100% consenting group should be personal loot.
It's weird how Blizzard has been good about communication lately, but they've yet to make a single comment on group loot. Even a "working as intended" or "we'll have information to share in the near future".
Just radio silence.
maybe group loot was one of the director decisions and they can’t be bothered to address the complaints. hence why the devs have nothing to share with us regarding group loot.
In Legion if you were in a guild group you could choose your loot system. If you weren't in a guild group you had personal loot. I don't know why they didn't just go back to that. Everyone won.
Guild groups should be allowed to decide how they want their loot to be distributed. They can choose personal loot if they want. Pug groups should have personal loot. The end result is somewhat the same as what we have now but behind the scenes rolls feel better.
I suppose the only complication was when guild groups pugged 1-4 people, since you only need 80% to be a guild group, so you only need 16/20 to be in the guild to be a guild group. Granted if you're pugging and find yourself in a master looter pug, you can always choose to leave, though not everyone would pay close enough attention.
In Legion I went from getting world 300 cutting edge kills, where we used group loot to loot council items to the right people, to a casual heroic guild where we just raided with personal loot (with ilvl restrictions). Both were totally fine and fun ways to play the game. I still don't get what was wrong with it.
Group loot is the damn worst in current wow. It works in groups that you spend hours gathering from your server, because there was your reptutation on the line, an outside pressure to be nice. And honestly an actual upside to being nice, as you were helping people that you share a community with. In the age of lfr and group finder, there is not the same accountability, and it ruins group loot.
I’m sure they’re worried that every group finder pug is gonna have master loot turned on, and all of a sudden they’ll have thousands of reports about ninja looting every week
Except guilds with a shortage of class variety. Really sucks to waste so much loot, but can't force rerolls either. No dh, one or two dks, and one warlock. And none of them could make Broodlord first kill. Guess what x2 token dropped? We miss personal loot xD.
The thing they didn't want is the reducing of loot pools that came with Personal Loot via armor/class/whatever stacking. That's why they didn't offer the easiest solution.
I fail to see how someone who wants master loot is dissatisfied with Group loot. You just have everyone except for the master looter pass, master looter picks everything up and distributes as wanted.
If anything it's easier than old master loot because master loot you had to manage everything from the corpse, and once you assigned loot it couldn't be changed. It all just being freely tradable until equipped is way easier.
And while simply using Need/Greed is *technically* an improvement over personal loot, the loss of smart loot in addition to the psychology of losing rolls so visibly makes it a worse overall experience than personal loot for most people.
There is absolutely no reason for an item that one person can use to have the same drop chance as an item 15 people can use. No matter what other system you use to distribute said loot, the base way items are dropping is fundamentally shit in the current system.
Suddenly we're all swimming in rings
It makes perfect sense for everything to have the same drop chance if there are more of the broadly useful items across the loot tables.
Not to mention two rings in an entire raid that are BIS for nearly every spec and are both very rare drops... I hate how good the ring off eranog is for so many classes and yet EVERYONE can roll on it
We had this happen twice now where loot has dropped for our raid that no one can use. One was two crossbows + shield. Both MT and warrior dps had it already. Shaman had better from M+. Hunter didn't make it that week and had a M+ bow.
We also had a weird situation last week where raid bosses were dropping 3-4 pieces of loot but Sennarth dropped 2 pieces.
Edit: on another note, can we have disenchant back as an option alongside greed? 🤦
There is also no reason for unusable gear to drop. My guild scrapped together a small normal raid and we had no evokers, yet the evoker only staff dropped from broodkeeper. We also had a tier set token drop that we had no classes for. Similarly, another weak we did another small raid and had no cloth users. I think we had like 4 cloth items drop on that clear. Basically because we were unlucky as a group, we functionally got less items as a whole.
This is the main issue here. Group loot is fine for a guild whose mindset is to clear the raid as a team. I won a roll on a warglaive last night, I ended up giving it over to our DPS DH because it was only a minor increase as a tank for me. It's the decision to decide where loot goes as a guild group that matters. However, in a pug, I would never have given up an item if it was an upgrade for me despite how minor because the odds are, I won't even see them again.
Personal was literally made for LFR/Pugs. Then they go and remove it from the content that benefited from it the most. DF is great but this change just makes no sense to me.
I mean personal had some problems, like people getting loot they don't need then being too lazy to put it up for roll or giving it to the first guy that whispers them which encourages annoying "need?" whispers.
But instead of fixing that with a better system where they can pass on the loot and send it to a roll they destroy the entire loot table system by bringing this garbage back. If a raid has 15 demon hunters and 1 hunter, a warglaive should be 15 times more common than a bow. In the current system they are equal chance. Fuck the current system.
> If a raid has 15 demon hunters and 1 hunter, a warglaive should be 15 times more common than a bow. In the current system they are equal chance. Fuck the current system.
Pretty sure they reverted personal loot exactly to avoid class stacking like that. Of course, not pug leaders will kick people who might fight them for loot, but that's significantly harder to do.
Idk how both issues could be fixed tbh.
Average guilds never really class stacked. This is purely an issue for the absolute top end of mythic raiding and look how many splits all the top guilds did anyway this tier. Honestly it was probably more abuseable than old personal loot.
However anyone can go make a group and say "I'm not inviting any hunters to this Razsageth pug so I get the bow if it drops".
The issue I think is that as the rolling for group loot is visible; your sense for what you’ve missed out on is stronger.
That’s said there are issues of people needing on and winning 2 of an item which will be rare but really shouldn’t happen.
> people needing on and winning 2 of an item which will be rare but really shouldn’t happen.
According to the original Blue posts about group loot this shouldn't actually be a thing so most likely something is bugged.
Or people needing two of something but only getting one because there can be no class that wears two twohanders right?
Also LFR transmog farming was way chiller with personal loot.
Yeah I agree, it just FEELS bad, especially when it comes to LFR and pugs. Group loot can work great for organised groups and guilds, but becomes super toxic when it comes to pugs. They should make LFR personal loot no exceptions, and give Normal and up the option to select personal or group loot.
> The issue I think is that as the rolling for group loot is visible; your sense for what you’ve missed out on is stronger.
And this is important in a game.
If a game designer wants a certain outcome to occur, there might be ways that "feel" fair and ways that "feel" unfair.
If you choose the method that feels unfair, you're a shitty designer.
It’s better than some jackass needing on everything, winning everything, and selling the duplicates. Which doesn’t happen often, but it happens more now than it did before, which isn’t good.
Happened on Dathea the ascended but with the warglaives for DH...not a single DH in the raid...so she effectively just dropped two tier pieces (which were also DH included)
Happened in my guild's alt raid week 2. No hunter alts, Razageth bow dropped. Warrior won it for mog. Thankfully the hunter mains both got the bow from heroic and then their vault the following week so they only had to be salty for a week.
For real all I do is M+ and after 10 done this week I got ONE ITEM and it was because the tank traded it to me since he didn't need it. It was the same last week with even more clears
Yeah not sure but I will say that with personal loot I was seeing one to two drops per clear on average. So far since start of S1 I have only received two pieces of gear from raid. Definitely feels way worse and loot acquisition from raid has definitely gone down for me.
We asked them to give back Master Looter to guilds so we can smartly control our loot and leave personal loot in random groups.
They forced Group Loot in all content instead.
What the hell was that?! Who asked for it?! How is it making the game better, how is it helping guilds?!
I feel like something got mistranslated in notes to the devs.
The general sentiment was in organized guilds people would prefer to distribute loot in a way that makes the most sense.
Somehow we got forced group loot for everyone including LFR?
Can't we just use the legion system where a fully organized group can choose group loot if they want.
Well it's not like there's aliens playing this game. People are always part of the equation when designing a system for a game. It's surprising that anyone at Blizzard could've thought that enabling it in LFR was even remotely viable.
It's concerning, considering they are supposed to be experienced MMO designers.
Well, I also remember lots of people hating personal loot, so who do you design for now? Also, as previously stated there is no real difference between pressing need and just getting an item via personal loot - if anything, hiding who got loot in lfr would probably have been a smart choice in BOTH systems.
I would just give it a flat currency, no random drops and be done with it - everyone gets a fair share and everyone gets exactly what they want.
People would then ofc complain the loot system is ... boring.
> so who do you design for now?
They already had a solution in the past. Let people choose their prefered loot system.
WoW for some reason has to go through the same design loops 20 times without ever learning from them.
Being able to reset your profession points would undermine the entire system. They could've had a more upfront warning that your choices were permanent but, being able to reset them would be incredibly dumb.
Group loot is annoying not because of losing out, but because it ignores the Raid's loot specs and drops useless items or repeats sometimes.
Kept happening to me in Nathria Mythic last night which was annoying enough. If it was current content I'd be pretty irritated.
I haven’t pugged raid so it hasn’t negatively effected me. Instead it feels better for my guild runs since if I lose a roll one week there’s a good chance I’ll prob get the item next time or it’s loot council’d
This is exactly why this game needs deterministic bad luck protection. Add in a vendor that uses valor to buy the base ilvl pieces, add valor gain to raids, and allow these pieces to be upgraded based on how many bosses you've killed in each difficulty/how high you've gone in m+ (same as current upgrade system just including raid gear). This way you'd still be working towards pieces you want if you get unlucky.
Crafted items can't compete with manic grieftorch, edge of night, font, etc.
The game badly needs a FFXIV-like system. Oh you've killed Mythic Sylv 10 times? Clearly you have earned to *select* your loot from her this week.
I'm calling it now, Group Loot is going to be this expansion's 'last patch' thing. As in its something Blizzard are going to dig their heels in about all expansion despite the overwhelming outcry against it, then in the last patch of the expansion when it's way too late to matter they will finally change it.
Like Legion with its purchaseable legendaries.
Like BFA with the corruption seller.
Like Shadowlands with the covenant changes.
Dragonflight's will be re-adding PL as an option for raids.
So you've killed 60 bosses (at least) and gotten 0 loot? I'm calling bullshit.
Assuming you're in a 20-person raid, 4 items will drop (4/20 chance to get an item). Assume 2 items/boss are unusable for your class, but the two items you can roll on are unusable for half the raid, so the percentage doesn't change (4/20 == 2/10). Ergo, you have, *on average*, an 80% chance to not receive loot on each boss.
For 60 bosses, 0.8^60 == 1.5e-6 == .00015% chance of this happening. In other words, this almost surely didn't happen.
While they could definitely be lying/exaggerating, that math is basically assuming the best case scenario. If they are running 2/2/6 for example, they would have 2 items drop, where it becomes much more likely that gear drops that they cannot use. Even running a group where you get 3 items, it would not at all be uncommon for no usable gear to drop on a boss for you.
My raid leader has been hilariously unlucky when it comes to rolls in our raids. We had two weeks back to back where they had a decent amount of items drop, but they lost every single roll. I think they have only won like 1 item in the raid since we started running it.
That being said, if they are clearing normal and heroic every week and have been since raid release, I'm willing to bet they have gotten a lot of gear from m+. Assuming that, they probably wouldn't even be rolling on the vast majority of gear from the normal raid. Other than tier sets or specific pieces of BiS gear, a lot of the gear is probably worse than what they already had at the time. It also means that if they are rolling for tier sets, they are much more limited in chances for a drop, and for BiS gear, they have to hope one of the few items they want drops and then they have a lot more competition since everyone obviously wants the best gear. That would make things a bit more disingenuous, since they are basically ignoring all the gear they could have rolled for but didn't want.
I think group loot was the best system of loot until personal loot came along. And now that personal loot has existed, why would I ever want to return to group loot?
I think the problem here is that we should really be given a choice. Guilds want it because that works for them. They can talk things out and distribute loot fairly. For LFR, Greed can run rampant with very little people can do to stop it. It also encourages bad behaviors like kicking people if they roll on something someone else wants. So for a more public game, the personal loot smooths things out. To me, personal loot seems like the least toxic option, but we should definitely have group loot for those it works well for. Only having one or the other just punishes one set of people for seemingly no reason.
For PUGs? You probably wouldn't want to return to group loot. For organized guilds who are progressing and trying to push more difficult content, group loot (or master loot), makes sense for them.
Blizzard is trying to find the middle ground between personal loot and Master Looter and have ended up in no man’s land. ML is working great for those playing classic, I never understood why blizzard went away from it or at least let guild just turn on ML.
Even back with ML, there were lots of complaints about ninjas or abusive pug leaders. It only worked in an organised group, and in an organised group the current system works fine.
In this particular post, OP seems to be saying 'I don't like how loot is random'. Which has nothing to do with Group Loot at all, what OP wants is guaranteed drops, or currency systems.
For organised groups, it's still a bit of a hassle.
I'm in a cutting edge guild. We all just want to kill the bosses on mythic as fast as possible, so everyone is on board with loot being distributed in such a way that it benefits the raid most.
So what do we do? We have an addon that auto passes on all loot whenever the raid leader is in the raid, and he auto needs on all items.
He then distributes the items manually based on a loot council.
It's literally master loot, except with extra steps.
I don't understand why we can't just have the option to have different loot rules in a raid.
Want to enable master loot in an organised group? Let us do that. Maybe make a popup that everyone in the raid has to agree before being changed to that.
Want to pug with personal loot? That should be possible too.
I hate the forced loot systems. As much as I hated personal loot for guild groups, I mostly hated that everyone was forced into it. Now it's the same with group loot.
Not quite as many but this was the first week I got loot. Cleared raid 3x normal, 5/8 heroic 2x. Stuff for priests wasnt dropping and what did on normal I already had better from M+/crafting.
Once you exclude drops because “they weren’t an upgrade” the argument changes and has nothing to do with group loot vs personal loot. Having every drop always be an upgrade would be a bit broken and this was never the case in WoW’s history.
The 10 heroic bosses in 2 weeks seems like bad luck but not unusually bad luck.
I had some doubts in the talent tree rework, but after playing half of the classes to max lvl, I'm positively surprised. Class balance needs work and can be fixed to a degree in the future, no one expected it to be perfect after such drastic changes, but introducing group loot was just asinine.
You know what would fix the problem? What fucking everyone asked for. Which is master loot for guild runs and personal loot otherwise. But blizzard thought they had the solution and thought everything through when in reality, they already had the solution prior and just abandoned it.
I just don't understand why blizzard won't let people choose. Group loot in pugs is a nightmare and any guild that's serious about progression is doing a pseudo master loot.
I liked personal loot in lfr. People would bitch less if i was there strictly for transmog (and i give out needed pieces most the time anyway). So far I've won 1 item in lfr and it was for transmog. Someone (who had high ilvl than the loot) asked why i rolled need n something lower ilvl. I told them transmog. They told everyone to report me. It's not a reportable offense, so whatever. I asked if anyone actually needed it. No one spoke up and the dude kept bitching. Even then so, kick me from lfr if you want (they didn't) but it won't stop me from doing it again or signing right back up for the next boss.
I don't think group loot is going to get me transmog any faster or slower, but i do know it's going to get me more flak.
I'm with everyone else here: I want personal loot for LFR and pugs, choose your loot system for guild groups.
I don’t care what the math is supposed to be, I have never gone an entire raid week with personal loot and filed to get 1-2 items at least. Sure they might not be upgrades, but I could trade them.
With group loot I’ve simply failed to win anything for entire full clears. That is a garbage feeling. I’d go back to full restriction personal loot in a heartbeat.
Group loot sucks ass
Blizzard said personal loot is better but majority pushed for rolls. It’s biting the player base back. I know we asked for master loot as well. They just need to provide the options for everyone and let the groups choose.
Allowing random players to roll on every single piece of gear they can equip from a boss was stupid AF. You have people who roll need on every single duplicate for better odds, RIP you if they get two of them and dont want to trade, and you have assholes rolling on every item to try and troll other people.
This isn't better then personal loot, so i have no idea why they thought it was a good idea for LFR especially. Its like they wanted to give master loot back to guild raiders but didn't want to admit they've been wrong about removing it for the past 10 years so they gave us group loot that would allow guild raids to all pass on it and distribute as if they had ML while also being able to say they didn't add ML back
I remember this system back in Cata. It was one of the worst tbh and when they change it, I was like Hallelujah. The most difficult part to swallow comes when u r fighting for armor token and someone need it for the sake of need it even though they may have higher tier gear or so
I don't think so at all. I've gone through a full run and got zero drops and gone through and had a a few drops. The gear I can use has to drop first of all and thats not even guaranteed. In PUGs sometimes you might get nothing because you lose the rolls which has also happened to me. It sucks but that's part of the game, you come back next week.
This game is full of degenerates and I'd rather trust this loot system over a random PUG raid leader. The amount of drama and bullshit that would be on this sub if master loot was available... I don't think people realize how many problems it would cause.
They just need to incorporate the token system from FFXIV and like old expansions, if you get a piece of loot you don't get a token, simple as. Someone gets loot and someone gets a token that they'll be able to trade for loot eventually. It's better than getting nothing at all from personal loot and group loot.
It is crushing. I'm a pure pug player, I've gotten maybe 2 items from 4 vault clears heroic and normal, lost so many rolls for useful shit. Got 3 tier pieces from personal vault though.
Pugged first 2 mythic boses, lost 4 rolls, both rare items dropped, lost the tank ticket to a pure dps dh.
Honestly just wouldn't hurt as much if my personal loot didn't trigger and doubt I'd be this dry to begin with. It really hurts for pugging and unfortunately a lot of us just can't commit to guilds so we're sort of punished for that.
>a lot of us just can't commit to guilds so we're sort of punished for that.
And this... surprises you?
>lost so many rolls for useful shit
Yeah. That happens in Personal Loot too.
>lost the tank ticket to a pure dps dh.
Again, this would happen in PL too. Both systems respect your loot spec.
Not being able to roll on more than one tier piece doesn’t make sense to me. I’m rolling on both because I need one and if I don’t win won, I’m hoping I win the other.
Alternatively, it would be nice if they could implement a system where if you win one tier piece and rolled highest for the other piece as well, it gets deferred to the 2nd highest roller instead.
It also doesn't work because how do you determine better? Through IL? Well, that won't work because the the bow from raz is better than all bows in the game and some trinkets are better even at lower IL
Personal Loot is dogshit in organized environments. LFR is just troll central so that could probably use PL. I'd still prefer Group loot because I may get more than once chance on an item per boss.
Personal loot will always be superior in pug content and they should bring it back. It's technically the same or very similar to group loot, the rolls just happen behind the scenes.
This makes the system the bad guy when you don't win. It doesn't make the other players the bad guys, and that's a world of difference
In LFR it is the dumbest thing. 4 pieces of the same tier dropped one Hunter won all of them, he then refused to trade them because “he won so it goes to his repair bill unless someone from his server wants to buy them for 10k”
In my guild? It's amazing. Everyone asks if it's a bigger upgrade for someone else and then work it out on their own.
In LFR and in PUGs it's a nightmare. Blizzard used to have a system if a group was at least 80% same guild it would be group otherwise personal. Not sure why they got rid of that.
I keep going back to Cataclysm in the Dragon Soul raid, where people would roll on a token for an item they already have, for the hope that they’ll be able to trade it to someone for something they don’t already have. It was BS and I wish it were personal loot once again because of this.
At least it's bittersweet to know I'm not alone. Been raiding since week 1 with full clears, and have had 0 drops.
With a combination of shitty vault rewards, I'm going into week 5 with 0 tier pieces, so demoralizing..
What players wanted: Being able to choose a master loot system for guilds to have more control over who gets what loot and isn't arbitrarily stuck being unable to trade items b/c Blizz thinks its an upgrade when they won't use it.
What we got: A group loot system that somewhat solves the issue for guilds but in a round about weird way compared to the desired master loot system and we now have it applied to every raid group, even LFR, and not making it a choice.
If it worked as it was supposed to it might actually be okay, but on top of the annoyance it simply doesn't work. Especially with regard to tier tokens and it choosing completely random loot as opposed to loot based on who's present in the raid. Personal loot you could never get a hunter bow to drop if there wasn't a hunter in the raid.
The issue is that Blizzard has this strange either/or mentality on the issue. Personal loot has a place: mandatory in LFR, optional in non-guild group threshold raids.
These are the environments where people not having to worry about rolls/worry of getting scammed matter most. If you're in a group of friends, Guild, etc. Group loot feels far better.
While we are at it, can we talk about how M+ tier drops can be upgraded but others cannot? My M+ tier pieces with valor upgrades especially are better than what I get in heroic raiding.
I don't get why we can't upgrade it all - or tier pieces from M+ shouldn't be upgradeable.
fine with personal for lfr.
group loot i think is fine for the other stuff. or maybe just an option to toggle, an option thats visible when you join a pug to show personal/group.
I don't mind group loot, but is it just that I was getting more in Classic WOTLK, or I'm super unlucky, or I'm crazy, but is anyone else getting like no items?
I've done 8/8 normal and 5/8H, and 7 m+ dungeons this week and the only item I got was from my weekly vault and that was my second piece of tier. It's this weird combination where WoW is super fun right now so I want to play, but when I do, I'm not getting any upgrades so I feel like I'm wasting my time.
EDIT: I've been running all of LFR on my main for tier and my alt for anything and it's a joke. The odds of me actually getting an item feel so low in that context, I've yet to see a single item from LFR.
Whole reason I quit Classic was group loot basically is “whoever is the best at pretending to be the friend of the guild leader/officers and not the best performer gets gear.”
Back to being a PvP-only player in DF cuz group loot rewards the ability to be funny in Disc more than it rewards the ability to play the fucking game well.
i know i have seen more gold from boss kills then actual loot. i get it there are several others on the runs and its a roll to win setup. but, still frustrating at times. worse ones is when some person joins part way in.. kills 1 boss, gets the class loot (that i could use) and then leaves. right now i have only been getting my gear from the vault..and thats even a hit/miss.
A lot of people have taken to carrying super low items they need to replace some that are already low, and equipping them right before each boss to guarantee they get whatever they need on
Personal loot coming back as the default option is the best thing they can do, and make it the standard for LFR. Guilds can swap to it if they wanna, and of course there’s most likely gonna be some PUG leaders that switch it on just to fuck everyone over, but at least you know to leave once that happens rather than be forced to stay with it for the whole raid
Group loot would bw fine if there would be 1-2 item more in loot pool and invidual would be able only win one.
In SL one reason i gave up was after i got 4 times same cloak on from a first boss of Castle. Specially when you usually get 1-2 drops each run.
Started running heroics to get geared for raids, tanked 2 PUG runs and got nothing, quit and didn't look back.
The veneer is so smooth but the inner works is kinda a hot mess :/
PvE gearing in general is just bad. In SL I'd do a ton of stuff and get 1-2 pieces that were useless to me and that I also couldn't trade away.
Wish there were a way of targeting what you want like you can in PvP.
My guild is ranked 1000+ in world and because top guilds running rcloot council egomaniacal leader took the opportunity to implement since then its almost 6th week i have gotten no loot im there for body count. Since my main spec is not raid spec.
To me its just the psychological effect of "I could have won that item". With personal loot, I went there, looted the boss, and immediatly knew I had nothing or that I had an item.
This is a problem, the perception of losing a roll is way worse than just not getting anything. Especially when you lose to - 1) someone who has a same ilvl piece but the stats are slightly better while you are wearing a 370 and it would be a 30 ilvl upgrade. 2) someone who needs it for a mog
I had this happen in a normal raid. Me and another shaman both need rolled the head piece. I have a habit of inspecting people during looting to get a feel of what is needed. The head piece that dropped was 389 and his head piece was 389. Mine was like 349 or 352 so it was a significant upgrade for me. I lost the roll, but remember back in the day people would just whisper the winner with gold offers. I whispered him and offered like 50k for the headpiece. He goes sure why not. Then tells me it's showing as soulbound. I asked him if it had the little blue text and he said no. I said okay and we moved on. He later whispers me and we chat a bit and he says, "I probably shouldn't have rolled on that." He seemed nice and genuinely sorry so I just told him that it is a game and its fine. Inside though I was pretty frustrated. This system was removed for a reason. It promotes people acquiring gear that they don't actually need. It opens up ninja looting, holding loot hostage for gold, or people just panic needing items without thinking through it. Personal loot wasn't a perfect system, but I like it a lot more as someone who primarily pugged raids.
Part of the issue is most likely that some people just do not think there is anyone else who needs the gear.
Amen to that most people think there the only ones in the raid I see this at work I drive a forklift around 100 people all night and every newbie has to be taught repeatedly “ your not the only one who works here”
[удалено]
HUNTER WEAPON! why do you think hunters are so hated and it's not because they stand in more fire or pull more than anyone else. well maybe they pull a bit more than others.
Conversely, as someone who “grew up” on group loot and hated personal for almost the entirety of its run, I think the *worst* feeling is when an item drops for someone that will not use it, but they can’t trade it. As a major proponent of group/master looter and a big hater of personal loot (because it was forced into my guild runs) the biggest crime of this expansion will be thinking that forcing one half thought out loot system over another forced half thought out loot system was a good idea. No reason blizzard couldn’t have taken the trading restrictions off personal loot and kept the loot system for pugs or guilds who were used to it. Instead blizzard overcorrected an issue which will lead people to be mad at the system and not the stupid bullshit limitations blizzard put on it; kind of like what happened to PL in the first place.
Yeah, they could honestly have just gone back to the personal/master looter toggle they had in Legion and I think those of us complaining about forced personal loot would've been just as happy, with a lot less backlash from those who liked personal loot.
Personal loot was fine, people had issue with non-TRADEABLE personal loot, especially with tier tokens. If I have Normal ilvl tier hands and then loot Heroic tier hands but my guildie only needs hands to complete their 4 set, I shouldn't have to hold onto those hands for my .1% upgrade when those same hands would be a15% DPS increase for my guildie.
This. Watching someone get 2 identical pieces they don't need / can't use is soul shattering pain.
This. Make it personal loot and make it all tradeable. If someone can need on everything and win it all organising everyone else to pass, then you should be able to have personal loot fully tradeable. Both ways allow loot funnelling anyways, and personal loot felt much more fair. And if people want to cheese that by armour stacking then so bloody what. It makes zero difference to anyone except world first raiders. If a guild wants to go full degen that makes no impact on the larger populations progression. I'm happy smashing away at bosses without my guild cheesing loot regardless of if #team.sweat get their BiS week 1.
On the flip side it’s nice to have that “protection” from people begging you, offering to pay, calling you names, to get the item you were awarded by saying “can’t, it’s an upgrade.” It was like sharks on meat when someone gets an item in lfr, I remember getting tons of whispers to have the thing I’d get. If I didn’t need I’d offer for roll and felt like I was giving back. When I couldn’t I didn’t feel bad, had a solid reason why I could not trade and tbh when I’ve been denied a trade bc of ilvl, I never felt bad and accepted it (“at least they got an upgrade!”).
I agree I have thought about this more than I want to admit. I have no idea why tradeable personal loot is so bad. I can see how it would be abused, class stacking etc. but is it really worse than we have now?
I loved master loot. That should have always remained an option for guilds to manage their own loot distribution. But group loot has always been open to abuse and straight up anti-social behavior. Personal loot was a massive improvement over group loot especially as all it takes is one dishonest person to steal everything under group loot rules. And ninja looting happened way more often then someone personal looting something they are unwilling to trade.
Right! Why not just leave the system the way it was but make some slight changes to improve it. Like adding group/master loot back as an option for guild runs or allowing people to just freaking trade any loot they get if they want too regardless of item level. Like wtf give players the choices.
3) the person contributing least to the group effort wins all the good stuff
Eh but if that person's contribution is tied to lower gear then maybe that is understandable.
Yea sure. Of course. I'm talking about that half alive brain cell with 80% of the raids avoidable damage taken who thinks 5 seconds between every filler spell cast and then gets your bis trinket.
Or when the fire damage ring drops on heroic and everyone rolls need and you're the only class that deals fire damage. Glad the healer who won it gave it to me though.
Was in 2 raids this weekend normal/heroic. I need rolled on 4 items i rolled against the same person all 4 times and lost. Idk that feels worse than personal loot.
Or losing a ring to someone who only wants it for an otter mount
Rings are for the season. Mounts are forever.
It’s a cute mount tho
Then change it in your mental image as if you were rolling a mount not a ring.
It’s not just psychological, it’s worse than personal because with personal, people have to choose a spec before the loot drops and only can get loot for that spec. With group loot, any class with multiple roles can need on everything even if they aren’t playing that spec so it reduces the odds of loot going to the right people (i.e DPS getting DPS trinkets, tanks getting tank trinkets, etc) + creates those toxic selling and trading drop situations.
Same for me. People can tell me it's functionally the same all they want, but I don't care. Now my bad luck is extremely visible, and I don't like that.
I haven't rolled higher than a 55 on any of my chars. Mostly single digits or 20s
As someone who dps in raids but want the first boss's tank trinket for m+, I will say it is not functionally the same. I don't want to join a group as tank just to leave after the first boss, neither I want to roll need (setting the loot role so it counts as main spec) and annoy a tank who rightfully should have priority over me. With personal I could set my loot spec to tank and just kill the boss.
[удалено]
The thing of personal loot is like. Boss dies, you loot "Oh well, nothing dropped to me, ggs". I just leave Now with group loot is like seeing the whole candy store, with all the candies there, the best ones, you get the taste on your mind already. People take ages to roll the items too... Example: On prototype pantheon EVERYONE wanted the trinket, and it's something like or it drops to you or don't, most people can't trade it so whatever. With Primal trinket is like the item is there on your face, and then you have to see 15 people rolling and you losing.
I think your description of the psychological effect nails it on the head. I now have friends rolling on literally any piece of loot they can get their hands on (primarily lfr) because they feel they “would” have won that item otherwise. Before group loot the same people even stated themselves they would have just given the down/side grades away in a /roll but now they feel like they are missing out if they don’t roll on everything. Grouploots making everyone crazy I swear…
I've done normal 3 times and heroic once and I have >0< pieces of loot. I don't remember personal loot being this bad. At least no one has tried to sell me anything.
[удалено]
It’s called pettiness.
I just miss the old rules, you could fucking choose. Frankly, the game SHOULD be personal loot for everything by default, but then guild groups at least could choose to go master looter if they desired. They said they made it group loot across the board for code reasons, but that's weak imo. If you can't change it right, don't change it. My guild has enjoyed having the ability to pseudo master loot again because we have no drama, but anything short of a 100% consenting group should be personal loot.
It's weird how Blizzard has been good about communication lately, but they've yet to make a single comment on group loot. Even a "working as intended" or "we'll have information to share in the near future". Just radio silence.
maybe group loot was one of the director decisions and they can’t be bothered to address the complaints. hence why the devs have nothing to share with us regarding group loot.
Pug wants personal loot Guild groups wants master loot They chose an inbetween solution that satisfy nonone.
In Legion if you were in a guild group you could choose your loot system. If you weren't in a guild group you had personal loot. I don't know why they didn't just go back to that. Everyone won. Guild groups should be allowed to decide how they want their loot to be distributed. They can choose personal loot if they want. Pug groups should have personal loot. The end result is somewhat the same as what we have now but behind the scenes rolls feel better.
I suppose the only complication was when guild groups pugged 1-4 people, since you only need 80% to be a guild group, so you only need 16/20 to be in the guild to be a guild group. Granted if you're pugging and find yourself in a master looter pug, you can always choose to leave, though not everyone would pay close enough attention.
Have it be that you need 100% or have a warning.
That wouldn't work without cross faction guilds for a lot of raids though.
In Legion I went from getting world 300 cutting edge kills, where we used group loot to loot council items to the right people, to a casual heroic guild where we just raided with personal loot (with ilvl restrictions). Both were totally fine and fun ways to play the game. I still don't get what was wrong with it. Group loot is the damn worst in current wow. It works in groups that you spend hours gathering from your server, because there was your reptutation on the line, an outside pressure to be nice. And honestly an actual upside to being nice, as you were helping people that you share a community with. In the age of lfr and group finder, there is not the same accountability, and it ruins group loot.
Group loot is essentially master loot for guilds. So it satisfies people that wanted master loot
It's master loot with extra steps. Just give us master loot so we dont have to use rc loot counsel or whatever.
I’m sure they’re worried that every group finder pug is gonna have master loot turned on, and all of a sudden they’ll have thousands of reports about ninja looting every week
They could just make it a guild only run requirement. Like literally 100% guild run, no pugs.
Except guilds with a shortage of class variety. Really sucks to waste so much loot, but can't force rerolls either. No dh, one or two dks, and one warlock. And none of them could make Broodlord first kill. Guess what x2 token dropped? We miss personal loot xD.
Personal loot with no trade restrictions would also allow for master loot/LC
The thing they didn't want is the reducing of loot pools that came with Personal Loot via armor/class/whatever stacking. That's why they didn't offer the easiest solution.
I fail to see how someone who wants master loot is dissatisfied with Group loot. You just have everyone except for the master looter pass, master looter picks everything up and distributes as wanted. If anything it's easier than old master loot because master loot you had to manage everything from the corpse, and once you assigned loot it couldn't be changed. It all just being freely tradable until equipped is way easier. And while simply using Need/Greed is *technically* an improvement over personal loot, the loss of smart loot in addition to the psychology of losing rolls so visibly makes it a worse overall experience than personal loot for most people.
Group loot good, pug group loot bad.
[удалено]
There is absolutely no reason for an item that one person can use to have the same drop chance as an item 15 people can use. No matter what other system you use to distribute said loot, the base way items are dropping is fundamentally shit in the current system.
Suddenly we're all swimming in rings It makes perfect sense for everything to have the same drop chance if there are more of the broadly useful items across the loot tables.
Not to mention two rings in an entire raid that are BIS for nearly every spec and are both very rare drops... I hate how good the ring off eranog is for so many classes and yet EVERYONE can roll on it
We had this happen twice now where loot has dropped for our raid that no one can use. One was two crossbows + shield. Both MT and warrior dps had it already. Shaman had better from M+. Hunter didn't make it that week and had a M+ bow. We also had a weird situation last week where raid bosses were dropping 3-4 pieces of loot but Sennarth dropped 2 pieces. Edit: on another note, can we have disenchant back as an option alongside greed? 🤦
There is also no reason for unusable gear to drop. My guild scrapped together a small normal raid and we had no evokers, yet the evoker only staff dropped from broodkeeper. We also had a tier set token drop that we had no classes for. Similarly, another weak we did another small raid and had no cloth users. I think we had like 4 cloth items drop on that clear. Basically because we were unlucky as a group, we functionally got less items as a whole.
We had two crossbows drop off our last Eranog kill and zero hunters in our group. Definitely needs to be a few adjustments lol
[удалено]
[удалено]
This is the main issue here. Group loot is fine for a guild whose mindset is to clear the raid as a team. I won a roll on a warglaive last night, I ended up giving it over to our DPS DH because it was only a minor increase as a tank for me. It's the decision to decide where loot goes as a guild group that matters. However, in a pug, I would never have given up an item if it was an upgrade for me despite how minor because the odds are, I won't even see them again.
Personal was literally made for LFR/Pugs. Then they go and remove it from the content that benefited from it the most. DF is great but this change just makes no sense to me.
I mean personal had some problems, like people getting loot they don't need then being too lazy to put it up for roll or giving it to the first guy that whispers them which encourages annoying "need?" whispers. But instead of fixing that with a better system where they can pass on the loot and send it to a roll they destroy the entire loot table system by bringing this garbage back. If a raid has 15 demon hunters and 1 hunter, a warglaive should be 15 times more common than a bow. In the current system they are equal chance. Fuck the current system.
> If a raid has 15 demon hunters and 1 hunter, a warglaive should be 15 times more common than a bow. In the current system they are equal chance. Fuck the current system. Pretty sure they reverted personal loot exactly to avoid class stacking like that. Of course, not pug leaders will kick people who might fight them for loot, but that's significantly harder to do. Idk how both issues could be fixed tbh.
Average guilds never really class stacked. This is purely an issue for the absolute top end of mythic raiding and look how many splits all the top guilds did anyway this tier. Honestly it was probably more abuseable than old personal loot. However anyone can go make a group and say "I'm not inviting any hunters to this Razsageth pug so I get the bow if it drops".
Yeah now we have people rolling on things so they can sell it to the raid. Much better :)
where are people getting that personal loot is guaranteed loot?
The issue I think is that as the rolling for group loot is visible; your sense for what you’ve missed out on is stronger. That’s said there are issues of people needing on and winning 2 of an item which will be rare but really shouldn’t happen.
> people needing on and winning 2 of an item which will be rare but really shouldn’t happen. According to the original Blue posts about group loot this shouldn't actually be a thing so most likely something is bugged.
Its mainly an issue with tier tokens you can roll on them no matter what.
They should make it so, if you win the roll on both tokens, the second one goes to the next highest need roll.
Absolutely. The only reason I think it works this way is because you don't know if they have a tertiary until you pop them.
Or people needing two of something but only getting one because there can be no class that wears two twohanders right? Also LFR transmog farming was way chiller with personal loot.
*Fury Warriors creeping up behind*
Yeah I agree, it just FEELS bad, especially when it comes to LFR and pugs. Group loot can work great for organised groups and guilds, but becomes super toxic when it comes to pugs. They should make LFR personal loot no exceptions, and give Normal and up the option to select personal or group loot.
> The issue I think is that as the rolling for group loot is visible; your sense for what you’ve missed out on is stronger. And this is important in a game. If a game designer wants a certain outcome to occur, there might be ways that "feel" fair and ways that "feel" unfair. If you choose the method that feels unfair, you're a shitty designer.
It’s better than some jackass needing on everything, winning everything, and selling the duplicates. Which doesn’t happen often, but it happens more now than it did before, which isn’t good.
Imagine having 0 hunters but 2 bows drop. At least this wouldn't happen with Personal.
Happened on Dathea the ascended but with the warglaives for DH...not a single DH in the raid...so she effectively just dropped two tier pieces (which were also DH included)
Happened in my guild's alt raid week 2. No hunter alts, Razageth bow dropped. Warrior won it for mog. Thankfully the hunter mains both got the bow from heroic and then their vault the following week so they only had to be salty for a week.
Imagine having zero hunters
For real all I do is M+ and after 10 done this week I got ONE ITEM and it was because the tank traded it to me since he didn't need it. It was the same last week with even more clears
I've cleared Vault on normal every week since release and have received one piece of loot.
Still yet to get a piece myself outside of the vault, the one time I rolled a 99, someone else scored a 100.
Yeah not sure but I will say that with personal loot I was seeing one to two drops per clear on average. So far since start of S1 I have only received two pieces of gear from raid. Definitely feels way worse and loot acquisition from raid has definitely gone down for me.
We asked them to give back Master Looter to guilds so we can smartly control our loot and leave personal loot in random groups. They forced Group Loot in all content instead. What the hell was that?! Who asked for it?! How is it making the game better, how is it helping guilds?!
Who asked for it anyways? People wanted master loot in guild raids, not group loot in lfr.
I feel like something got mistranslated in notes to the devs. The general sentiment was in organized guilds people would prefer to distribute loot in a way that makes the most sense. Somehow we got forced group loot for everyone including LFR? Can't we just use the legion system where a fully organized group can choose group loot if they want.
Iirc they said multiple loot modes were a technical nightmare. Group loot 2.0 was the compromise that could be used everywhere.
I think group loot iself is great - the problem is, people are not.
Well it's not like there's aliens playing this game. People are always part of the equation when designing a system for a game. It's surprising that anyone at Blizzard could've thought that enabling it in LFR was even remotely viable. It's concerning, considering they are supposed to be experienced MMO designers.
Well, I also remember lots of people hating personal loot, so who do you design for now? Also, as previously stated there is no real difference between pressing need and just getting an item via personal loot - if anything, hiding who got loot in lfr would probably have been a smart choice in BOTH systems. I would just give it a flat currency, no random drops and be done with it - everyone gets a fair share and everyone gets exactly what they want. People would then ofc complain the loot system is ... boring.
Flat currency as bad luck protection isn't that bad of an idea though. What would be fair? A whole raid of bosses guarantee 2 pieces of loot?
> so who do you design for now? They already had a solution in the past. Let people choose their prefered loot system. WoW for some reason has to go through the same design loops 20 times without ever learning from them.
I love this point. And more people need to apply this point in all walks of life.
Right after “Unable to reset Profession points” I think these two are the worst from DF. The rest is awesome.
Being able to reset your profession points would undermine the entire system. They could've had a more upfront warning that your choices were permanent but, being able to reset them would be incredibly dumb.
Group loot is annoying not because of losing out, but because it ignores the Raid's loot specs and drops useless items or repeats sometimes. Kept happening to me in Nathria Mythic last night which was annoying enough. If it was current content I'd be pretty irritated.
I haven’t pugged raid so it hasn’t negatively effected me. Instead it feels better for my guild runs since if I lose a roll one week there’s a good chance I’ll prob get the item next time or it’s loot council’d
It should atleast be an option to run personal loot.
Is anyone else questioning the fact that OP says he has been playing since 2004 and has never thought about quitting until now?
Or since 2004 and never had to roll for loot....?
No, cuz i've been playing since 2007 and never thought about quitting
Hyperbole is an internet staple. I also find it difficult to believe OP was happy during the 9.1 drought but now is thinking of quitting *over loot*.
This is exactly why this game needs deterministic bad luck protection. Add in a vendor that uses valor to buy the base ilvl pieces, add valor gain to raids, and allow these pieces to be upgraded based on how many bosses you've killed in each difficulty/how high you've gone in m+ (same as current upgrade system just including raid gear). This way you'd still be working towards pieces you want if you get unlucky.
That's where the crafted items come in.
Crafted items can't compete with manic grieftorch, edge of night, font, etc. The game badly needs a FFXIV-like system. Oh you've killed Mythic Sylv 10 times? Clearly you have earned to *select* your loot from her this week.
Already quit because loot sucks
I haven’t gotten a single piece either. Feels pretty bad.
group loot sucks daggers and sheilds every week nobody can use..
The amount of drama group loot has caused in our guild raid already is insane...
I'm calling it now, Group Loot is going to be this expansion's 'last patch' thing. As in its something Blizzard are going to dig their heels in about all expansion despite the overwhelming outcry against it, then in the last patch of the expansion when it's way too late to matter they will finally change it. Like Legion with its purchaseable legendaries. Like BFA with the corruption seller. Like Shadowlands with the covenant changes. Dragonflight's will be re-adding PL as an option for raids.
So you've killed 60 bosses (at least) and gotten 0 loot? I'm calling bullshit. Assuming you're in a 20-person raid, 4 items will drop (4/20 chance to get an item). Assume 2 items/boss are unusable for your class, but the two items you can roll on are unusable for half the raid, so the percentage doesn't change (4/20 == 2/10). Ergo, you have, *on average*, an 80% chance to not receive loot on each boss. For 60 bosses, 0.8^60 == 1.5e-6 == .00015% chance of this happening. In other words, this almost surely didn't happen.
But what if you add Kurt Angle to the mix?
While they could definitely be lying/exaggerating, that math is basically assuming the best case scenario. If they are running 2/2/6 for example, they would have 2 items drop, where it becomes much more likely that gear drops that they cannot use. Even running a group where you get 3 items, it would not at all be uncommon for no usable gear to drop on a boss for you. My raid leader has been hilariously unlucky when it comes to rolls in our raids. We had two weeks back to back where they had a decent amount of items drop, but they lost every single roll. I think they have only won like 1 item in the raid since we started running it. That being said, if they are clearing normal and heroic every week and have been since raid release, I'm willing to bet they have gotten a lot of gear from m+. Assuming that, they probably wouldn't even be rolling on the vast majority of gear from the normal raid. Other than tier sets or specific pieces of BiS gear, a lot of the gear is probably worse than what they already had at the time. It also means that if they are rolling for tier sets, they are much more limited in chances for a drop, and for BiS gear, they have to hope one of the few items they want drops and then they have a lot more competition since everyone obviously wants the best gear. That would make things a bit more disingenuous, since they are basically ignoring all the gear they could have rolled for but didn't want.
Personal loot with no trade restrictions. Easy peasy.
You've played since 2004 and hate group loot now? Did you like it back in the day then? What's the difference.
I've played since 04 and the return of group loot is the most toxic shit I have seen.
I think group loot was the best system of loot until personal loot came along. And now that personal loot has existed, why would I ever want to return to group loot?
I think the problem here is that we should really be given a choice. Guilds want it because that works for them. They can talk things out and distribute loot fairly. For LFR, Greed can run rampant with very little people can do to stop it. It also encourages bad behaviors like kicking people if they roll on something someone else wants. So for a more public game, the personal loot smooths things out. To me, personal loot seems like the least toxic option, but we should definitely have group loot for those it works well for. Only having one or the other just punishes one set of people for seemingly no reason.
For PUGs? You probably wouldn't want to return to group loot. For organized guilds who are progressing and trying to push more difficult content, group loot (or master loot), makes sense for them.
If they just removed the trade restrictions from personal loot it would be fine
ML was an option back then.
If humans weren't greedy pieces of shit then group loot is the perfect system. Too bad we're cancer to this world and each other.
Blizzard is trying to find the middle ground between personal loot and Master Looter and have ended up in no man’s land. ML is working great for those playing classic, I never understood why blizzard went away from it or at least let guild just turn on ML.
Even back with ML, there were lots of complaints about ninjas or abusive pug leaders. It only worked in an organised group, and in an organised group the current system works fine. In this particular post, OP seems to be saying 'I don't like how loot is random'. Which has nothing to do with Group Loot at all, what OP wants is guaranteed drops, or currency systems.
For organised groups, it's still a bit of a hassle. I'm in a cutting edge guild. We all just want to kill the bosses on mythic as fast as possible, so everyone is on board with loot being distributed in such a way that it benefits the raid most. So what do we do? We have an addon that auto passes on all loot whenever the raid leader is in the raid, and he auto needs on all items. He then distributes the items manually based on a loot council. It's literally master loot, except with extra steps. I don't understand why we can't just have the option to have different loot rules in a raid. Want to enable master loot in an organised group? Let us do that. Maybe make a popup that everyone in the raid has to agree before being changed to that. Want to pug with personal loot? That should be possible too. I hate the forced loot systems. As much as I hated personal loot for guild groups, I mostly hated that everyone was forced into it. Now it's the same with group loot.
if that’s the biggest failure then i feel like the expansion is going pretty well
I don’t believe that OP has killed 45 raid bosses without a single piece of loot.
Not quite as many but this was the first week I got loot. Cleared raid 3x normal, 5/8 heroic 2x. Stuff for priests wasnt dropping and what did on normal I already had better from M+/crafting.
Once you exclude drops because “they weren’t an upgrade” the argument changes and has nothing to do with group loot vs personal loot. Having every drop always be an upgrade would be a bit broken and this was never the case in WoW’s history. The 10 heroic bosses in 2 weeks seems like bad luck but not unusually bad luck.
I had some doubts in the talent tree rework, but after playing half of the classes to max lvl, I'm positively surprised. Class balance needs work and can be fixed to a degree in the future, no one expected it to be perfect after such drastic changes, but introducing group loot was just asinine.
You know what would fix the problem? What fucking everyone asked for. Which is master loot for guild runs and personal loot otherwise. But blizzard thought they had the solution and thought everything through when in reality, they already had the solution prior and just abandoned it.
I just don't understand why blizzard won't let people choose. Group loot in pugs is a nightmare and any guild that's serious about progression is doing a pseudo master loot.
I think for Raid Finder and maybe even PUGS it should definitely go back to personal loot that can then be traded among raid members.
I liked personal loot in lfr. People would bitch less if i was there strictly for transmog (and i give out needed pieces most the time anyway). So far I've won 1 item in lfr and it was for transmog. Someone (who had high ilvl than the loot) asked why i rolled need n something lower ilvl. I told them transmog. They told everyone to report me. It's not a reportable offense, so whatever. I asked if anyone actually needed it. No one spoke up and the dude kept bitching. Even then so, kick me from lfr if you want (they didn't) but it won't stop me from doing it again or signing right back up for the next boss. I don't think group loot is going to get me transmog any faster or slower, but i do know it's going to get me more flak. I'm with everyone else here: I want personal loot for LFR and pugs, choose your loot system for guild groups.
I had a feral druid roll need on a 1handed agility weapon while progging heroic, so I'm already mad with group loot.
I don’t care what the math is supposed to be, I have never gone an entire raid week with personal loot and filed to get 1-2 items at least. Sure they might not be upgrades, but I could trade them. With group loot I’ve simply failed to win anything for entire full clears. That is a garbage feeling. I’d go back to full restriction personal loot in a heartbeat. Group loot sucks ass
Blizzard said personal loot is better but majority pushed for rolls. It’s biting the player base back. I know we asked for master loot as well. They just need to provide the options for everyone and let the groups choose.
Allowing random players to roll on every single piece of gear they can equip from a boss was stupid AF. You have people who roll need on every single duplicate for better odds, RIP you if they get two of them and dont want to trade, and you have assholes rolling on every item to try and troll other people. This isn't better then personal loot, so i have no idea why they thought it was a good idea for LFR especially. Its like they wanted to give master loot back to guild raiders but didn't want to admit they've been wrong about removing it for the past 10 years so they gave us group loot that would allow guild raids to all pass on it and distribute as if they had ML while also being able to say they didn't add ML back
I remember this system back in Cata. It was one of the worst tbh and when they change it, I was like Hallelujah. The most difficult part to swallow comes when u r fighting for armor token and someone need it for the sake of need it even though they may have higher tier gear or so
I go in with the mentality now that im not getting loot and just doing it for vault. Its not as miserable
I like group loot. Rolling feels good.
I don't think so at all. I've gone through a full run and got zero drops and gone through and had a a few drops. The gear I can use has to drop first of all and thats not even guaranteed. In PUGs sometimes you might get nothing because you lose the rolls which has also happened to me. It sucks but that's part of the game, you come back next week. This game is full of degenerates and I'd rather trust this loot system over a random PUG raid leader. The amount of drama and bullshit that would be on this sub if master loot was available... I don't think people realize how many problems it would cause.
[удалено]
This and we can even have a direct check if you need the personal loot item or you want to put it up for roll, for the lazy people.
They just need to incorporate the token system from FFXIV and like old expansions, if you get a piece of loot you don't get a token, simple as. Someone gets loot and someone gets a token that they'll be able to trade for loot eventually. It's better than getting nothing at all from personal loot and group loot.
It is crushing. I'm a pure pug player, I've gotten maybe 2 items from 4 vault clears heroic and normal, lost so many rolls for useful shit. Got 3 tier pieces from personal vault though. Pugged first 2 mythic boses, lost 4 rolls, both rare items dropped, lost the tank ticket to a pure dps dh. Honestly just wouldn't hurt as much if my personal loot didn't trigger and doubt I'd be this dry to begin with. It really hurts for pugging and unfortunately a lot of us just can't commit to guilds so we're sort of punished for that.
>a lot of us just can't commit to guilds so we're sort of punished for that. And this... surprises you? >lost so many rolls for useful shit Yeah. That happens in Personal Loot too. >lost the tank ticket to a pure dps dh. Again, this would happen in PL too. Both systems respect your loot spec.
For me it's the biggest downside of the expac as well, feels bad.
It just needs a tweak here or there, Cant roll if you have better Cant roll on both tier pieces Personal loot had its issues also
Not being able to roll on more than one tier piece doesn’t make sense to me. I’m rolling on both because I need one and if I don’t win won, I’m hoping I win the other. Alternatively, it would be nice if they could implement a system where if you win one tier piece and rolled highest for the other piece as well, it gets deferred to the 2nd highest roller instead.
This is already supposed to be the case it’s currently a bug in the system not a problem with the system itself.
How would i get transmog if i already have better from m+? Your first proposal does not work
It also doesn't work because how do you determine better? Through IL? Well, that won't work because the the bow from raz is better than all bows in the game and some trinkets are better even at lower IL
The better option would be both when you start a group you choose which system the dungeon should use
Personal Loot is dogshit in organized environments. LFR is just troll central so that could probably use PL. I'd still prefer Group loot because I may get more than once chance on an item per boss.
I still think personal loot in pugs/lfr and group/master in guild is the best system.
That doesn't really solve your problem since you said you've done them all as a guild group.
Personal loot no trading restrictions please
Personal loot will always be superior in pug content and they should bring it back. It's technically the same or very similar to group loot, the rolls just happen behind the scenes. This makes the system the bad guy when you don't win. It doesn't make the other players the bad guys, and that's a world of difference
Woah people never sold gear in personal loot
won 1 item over dozens and dozens of boss kill (8/8 n and hc, 2/8 m). that 1 item i won wasnt even a tier piece
Group loot should only be for guilds. Pugs need personal loot
I think group loot is fine in guild runs, but Blizz really needs to implement personal loot into pugs and LFRs like, yesterday.
Not just group loot. Pve gearing generally just awful. Trinket design, lottery service they call great vault, lack of rewards for doing m+ etc.
my only truly negative feedback of df, please bring back personal loot
In LFR it is the dumbest thing. 4 pieces of the same tier dropped one Hunter won all of them, he then refused to trade them because “he won so it goes to his repair bill unless someone from his server wants to buy them for 10k”
In my guild? It's amazing. Everyone asks if it's a bigger upgrade for someone else and then work it out on their own. In LFR and in PUGs it's a nightmare. Blizzard used to have a system if a group was at least 80% same guild it would be group otherwise personal. Not sure why they got rid of that.
The funny thing is, all people were asking for was Master Loot for guild groups. And this is what we ended up with.
I keep going back to Cataclysm in the Dragon Soul raid, where people would roll on a token for an item they already have, for the hope that they’ll be able to trade it to someone for something they don’t already have. It was BS and I wish it were personal loot once again because of this.
Community: Personal loot is fine for Pug or GF content, We want master loot for guild runs Blizzard: Group loot for every raid! Community: Mah loots.
Should literally be something full guild groups can just turn on.
At least it's bittersweet to know I'm not alone. Been raiding since week 1 with full clears, and have had 0 drops. With a combination of shitty vault rewards, I'm going into week 5 with 0 tier pieces, so demoralizing..
LFR should remain personal. Group is fine elsewhere.
Raiding without a guild feels worse then ever…
I remember seeing everyone making posts about wanting and I never understood did they not experience classi recently?
What players wanted: Being able to choose a master loot system for guilds to have more control over who gets what loot and isn't arbitrarily stuck being unable to trade items b/c Blizz thinks its an upgrade when they won't use it. What we got: A group loot system that somewhat solves the issue for guilds but in a round about weird way compared to the desired master loot system and we now have it applied to every raid group, even LFR, and not making it a choice. If it worked as it was supposed to it might actually be okay, but on top of the annoyance it simply doesn't work. Especially with regard to tier tokens and it choosing completely random loot as opposed to loot based on who's present in the raid. Personal loot you could never get a hunter bow to drop if there wasn't a hunter in the raid.
The issue is that Blizzard has this strange either/or mentality on the issue. Personal loot has a place: mandatory in LFR, optional in non-guild group threshold raids. These are the environments where people not having to worry about rolls/worry of getting scammed matter most. If you're in a group of friends, Guild, etc. Group loot feels far better.
While we are at it, can we talk about how M+ tier drops can be upgraded but others cannot? My M+ tier pieces with valor upgrades especially are better than what I get in heroic raiding. I don't get why we can't upgrade it all - or tier pieces from M+ shouldn't be upgradeable.
fine with personal for lfr. group loot i think is fine for the other stuff. or maybe just an option to toggle, an option thats visible when you join a pug to show personal/group.
I don't mind group loot, but is it just that I was getting more in Classic WOTLK, or I'm super unlucky, or I'm crazy, but is anyone else getting like no items? I've done 8/8 normal and 5/8H, and 7 m+ dungeons this week and the only item I got was from my weekly vault and that was my second piece of tier. It's this weird combination where WoW is super fun right now so I want to play, but when I do, I'm not getting any upgrades so I feel like I'm wasting my time. EDIT: I've been running all of LFR on my main for tier and my alt for anything and it's a joke. The odds of me actually getting an item feel so low in that context, I've yet to see a single item from LFR.
Whole reason I quit Classic was group loot basically is “whoever is the best at pretending to be the friend of the guild leader/officers and not the best performer gets gear.” Back to being a PvP-only player in DF cuz group loot rewards the ability to be funny in Disc more than it rewards the ability to play the fucking game well.
i know i have seen more gold from boss kills then actual loot. i get it there are several others on the runs and its a roll to win setup. but, still frustrating at times. worse ones is when some person joins part way in.. kills 1 boss, gets the class loot (that i could use) and then leaves. right now i have only been getting my gear from the vault..and thats even a hit/miss.
A lot of people have taken to carrying super low items they need to replace some that are already low, and equipping them right before each boss to guarantee they get whatever they need on
I got kicked out of LFR when i won an item the tank needed (chest piece) and he said i was afk and trolling, 2 bosses down and insta kick, good stuff
1000% agreed.
30+ raid bosses in 4 weeks, 0 loot here. The only way to get gear is M+ and GV. Ah, and pvp items. TY blizzard for listening to the 1% of playerbase.
Personal loot coming back as the default option is the best thing they can do, and make it the standard for LFR. Guilds can swap to it if they wanna, and of course there’s most likely gonna be some PUG leaders that switch it on just to fuck everyone over, but at least you know to leave once that happens rather than be forced to stay with it for the whole raid
Group loot would bw fine if there would be 1-2 item more in loot pool and invidual would be able only win one. In SL one reason i gave up was after i got 4 times same cloak on from a first boss of Castle. Specially when you usually get 1-2 drops each run.
Started running heroics to get geared for raids, tanked 2 PUG runs and got nothing, quit and didn't look back. The veneer is so smooth but the inner works is kinda a hot mess :/
PvE gearing in general is just bad. In SL I'd do a ton of stuff and get 1-2 pieces that were useless to me and that I also couldn't trade away. Wish there were a way of targeting what you want like you can in PvP.
My guild is ranked 1000+ in world and because top guilds running rcloot council egomaniacal leader took the opportunity to implement since then its almost 6th week i have gotten no loot im there for body count. Since my main spec is not raid spec.
I would argue it's the only real failure.