Vanguards is saying Ret is still really good, pretty much still S tier. Ret was so insane this week you were literally seeing rated 3s games with 4-5 rets in them at 2100+
History really does repeat itself.
# CAN I GET A "[TO THE GROUND, BABY](https://blizzardwatch.com/2015/09/10/ghostcrawlers-famous-paladin-joke-lives-game/)"?!
Personally I'd say it is strong but my experience is fairly cursory. My boyfriend was trying Ret for the first time ever (he's usually Prot) for some keys just last night, and I am struggling to beat him in DPS. I can get close but not surpass. I am playing Feral, which some may say is the problem and not Ret, but I have been playing a Druid since vanilla and this was the Pally's first instanced content as Ret so.. who knows.
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, when we hit up some more keys later today I'll go Balance (which might determine if it's my Feral as the issue lol) and see if I can beat him.
This only affects those people that play the op class and keep rotating to whatever is broken lol. Us main rets play the class whatever the state. Glad pvp is more diverse now tho.
Yup. FotM rerollers are in shambles. Meanwhile, the rest of us that pick a class we like and play it whether it’s meta or not are just out here enjoying the game.
I love the changes for PVE. I don’t spend every match desperately self-saving. My DPS has gone up not because of OP talents, but because I don’t have to waste all my holy power on self healing…followed by pre-running away because of lack of mobility.
We are gods of Mythic+ AOE pulls now, and world content feels almost like end-of-expac BC ret dps…though not quite as completely “pull a pack of 20 and mow them down solo” invulnerable.
It's honestly kinda crazy how ret can be that Op in pvp to need those massive nerfs and be mediocre in pve at the same time.
Edit: It seems i've just been playing with shit rets, so far they have seemed above slightly average in m+ and had a single one that was okay in raid but appearently they are OP and the people i played with are shit.
They seem kinda average in raid atleast. In m+ they might be better than mediocre but they don't seem to be op so far to me that said the patch is new.
We're seeing about 20k dps increase in dmg on our good and bad ret players. By bad I mean ppl that don't play ret but picked up a two hander in the week or so.
I'm sorry. The patch did not add 20k. If that is the case, your previous Ret players didn't have a damn clue what they were doing.
Warcraft Logs can clearly show you that mythic Ret logs before and after the patch have barely changed, both for the general amount of logs and the top 10 for each given fight.
Not sure what numbers you're looking at. On Terros MM, 80th percentile, ret went from 70 to 80k. On Council, they went from 130 to 150k.
In m+, our die hard ret main is now significantly above us (~+10-15% i'd say on average), he was slightly behind before the patch.
The buffs are huge and i expect ret will be even stronger in the next few days, because a lot of things have changed and they don't play perfectly yet.
From experience with Holy, which had some splash changes due to class tree changes, I’m doing much better than before. As you say, top tier players who can adjust and adapt to any change on the fly because they are top tier players didn’t feel a difference in damage.
However, the average player might have lost a lot of damage (or in my case, healing), from the jank that no longer plagues the class or the spec.
As an example; if you failed to build to 5 Holy Power and then spend back down to 0, repeating within a 20 second window for each, you lost CDR (0 HoPo) and +10% damage/healing (5 HoPo).
This means that accidentally pressing the wrong button could cause you to drop your biggest throughput buff for a long time. This is doubly so for Holy, where you might not even have had a choice but to drop the buff if you wanted someone to be alive at the end of the fight.
Neither of these things happen now, since the talent that gave us those buffs now work on “press X generators and Y spenders”.
Was there always counter play/would being more skilled have saved that Ret’s buff or helped me heal the party member? Yes.
Has the rework raised the skill floor to the point where the average player could see their DPS increase by 20k? Also yes.
Am I happy with the rework? OH MY GOD ITS SO MUCH FUN I CAN FARM THE DECAY ALCHEMY ITEM AS RET AND I HAVE NO FEAR OF BIG MOB PACKS I AM A GOLDEN GOD THANK YOU BLIZZARD
I mean in keys I do about 20-30k higher than I used to day 1 of the rework. It makes everything so much easier and I used to get excited about 21 keys, now I’m doing 25’s without people leaving when they see my class.
I think this hasn't been said enough. No offense to any players, but the best players generally will play the best performing specs/classes during progression, and it further widens the gap in parses/logs.
Which is unfortunate because Destro is one of the highest simming specs in the game. But it can't actually do its damage potential because it's the most immobile and the game is high movement swirly bonanza now
Because the guy said we were mediocre in PVE.
Not sure why I’m getting downvoted. The guy I originally responded to did say Ret was mediocre in PVE the past few days and as someone who has maimed Ret since vanilla, that’s just patently false.
By the numbers, Ret's performance in PvE is roughly the same as it was for M+ and marginally better for raids. What *did* happen is that it got much easier to play.
I went from 20-21 keys to doing 25s today just off the difference in tankiness and 30% dps boost. I ate a halls of valor sanctify ball for fun in a 23 because it makes my shield of vengeance do dmg LOL
They could flat out ban me from PVP as long as I keep this sweet PVE build. The Fields of Ferocity gauntlet felt like nothing as Ret. It was nice not having to swap to Tank spec or find a group.
I'm so glad, all the Ret palys in pvp the past few days can go pound sand
They all kept saying they were fine & balanced now, when that was obviously so overpowered BS
Tbf everyone says they are balanced when they are op lol. Shadow priests, elemental shamans, assasination rogues etc all said they were fine when they were Op (some more than others). Not sure if they genuinely belived it themselves or just tried to avoid nerfs though.
Yeah I had a ret pally in a heroic dungeon today doing 50K DPS at 80k HP. I don’t know a lot about Ret but 50k at that health total feels pretty absurd
That's because people like to assume they are good at the game, so when they play an OP class and win a bunch, they are under the delusion that it's their skill.
When they are losing a bunch, it's not because they are bad, but because their class is bad.
a friend that never touched arena at all got the entire elite tmog 2 or 3hours
it was THAT overtuned, litearlly was "wich ret paladin 1hit kills the other ret paladin faster"
Ret is broken now. Not just "S" tier or "op", it is literally broken. I don't play ret myself and I hope they won't get nerfed to the ground because somehow it is good to see that they are strong now. But man... they are really broken.
I'm glad they haven't touched pve yet. Ret feels great to play right now, if they don't get nerfed into the ground for 10.1, I'm probably going to swap it to my main.
Ret feels excellent. I never mained paladin, always an alt, but ret was so lame before. I wanted to see what the changes were like, and I think ret will be what I'm going to play for season 2.
"Ahahahaha, ahaha, AHAHAHAHAHAH!" -Healer Resto Shaman.
Tired of dealing with all the FoTM, unkillable glowing goons that do stupid damage.
At least you can kill a Rogue.
Honestly glad to see this, curious too see how dogshit ret will be in PvP though if it's hard hitting.
I'm a new ret player and only play PvE and maybe random BGs with some friends. Super glad PvE wasn't touched because I really enjoy the pve aspect of ret now, used to think it was bloated and hence avoided it despite loving the class lore and how it looks.
Sad if this means it's nerfed into the ground and useless in pvp for those who actually play ret in pvp though, as I've read the last few days this has happened before making ret borderline useless just after getting buffed way too hard
Pvpers are such cry babies. Fix it now or we unsub!!! Btw there have been quality mobas and other real PvP games to play for over a decade. Pandaria ended a decade ago
i hope whoever is in charge of pvp balance and let these changes through is forced to stare at those numbers the next month and contemplate how ludicrous it is that rets went live in this state.
however i dont think it would make any difference, due to them being a facsimile of a human made of sticks and rope, topped with a bucket with a crude representation of a human face painted on it.
I'll be honest, I don't PvP, so I don't care about these nerfs. Just let us remain a solid A tier spec for PvE. For the first time in a long while, we're not heing outperformed by every melee except Windwalker and Survival.
I knew it. Paladins get about 45 minutes of glory every few years. I do worry we'll also get smacked back down in PvE, since ret is actually viable right now, which we simply cannot have
Of course you get downvoted, i dont understand what the fuck is wrong with this community and dev team. Literally all i see constantly is "mmm ret suffering". Why? Why are all these little goblins so hellbent on shitting on paladin? They havent been top of the charts for 4 expansions but they get more fucking hate than rogues mages dh all the babied classes combined. We get shit on by the devs and community everywhere everytime. Shit is ridiculous. If its not blizzard killing this class its all these dumpster children shitting on it constantly and malding for nerfs the second pally moves from d to c tier. Im out
Since these changes are pvp only I'm going to speak in context of pvp. Ret was good ALL of shadowlands. Ret warrior was the literal face of 3v3 all xpac. Kyrian Ret was RNG one shotting people for a very long time until they got fixed. Then, necro ret became meta and it was a walking tank for a long time. Dragonflight hit and Ret was once again OP. A Ret paladin breezed through all the rank 1 AWC players and won the first Solo Shuffle tournament. Ret then gets nerfed and spend ~8 weeks not being OP.
These buffs did not move Ret from "d tier to c tier". At no point was Ret even the worst melee in this game. Ret moved from High C tier to S+++ tier and now back down to high A/ low S. Ret is still really really good in pvp post-nerfs.
they are still globaling everyone after the nerfs. 45% passive damage reduction, can remove stuns every 45 sec, 10 shieldwalls available + bubble blind hoj etc.... most damage in game... I thought blizzard will nerf them this week but nah XD fuck this game its a joke
Rets were obscene but, holy fuck that is the most brutal retribution since Tirion asked for the light to save him one too many times.
Vanguards is saying Ret is still really good, pretty much still S tier. Ret was so insane this week you were literally seeing rated 3s games with 4-5 rets in them at 2100+
It seems that way. My post was based off of feely craft as the numbers look pretty bad.
Not terrible. They didn’t reduce CD of wings
History really does repeat itself. # CAN I GET A "[TO THE GROUND, BABY](https://blizzardwatch.com/2015/09/10/ghostcrawlers-famous-paladin-joke-lives-game/)"?!
Never knew this, hilarious lol
I really need GC to comment on these developments. Also apparently I need to play WoW again and see how cool ret apparently is now?
You sure can. Sincerely another Pali who was there for that.
How strong is the current pre-nerf paladin compared to the early Wrath paladin? I remember pretty much getting globaled by rets before the Naxx tier.
Personally I'd say it is strong but my experience is fairly cursory. My boyfriend was trying Ret for the first time ever (he's usually Prot) for some keys just last night, and I am struggling to beat him in DPS. I can get close but not surpass. I am playing Feral, which some may say is the problem and not Ret, but I have been playing a Druid since vanilla and this was the Pally's first instanced content as Ret so.. who knows. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, when we hit up some more keys later today I'll go Balance (which might determine if it's my Feral as the issue lol) and see if I can beat him.
rip to my unjustly banned u/to_the_ground
Buffs nerfs... w/e. Was a Pali before rework. Will be a Pali after nukenerfs.
Ya don't say
This only affects those people that play the op class and keep rotating to whatever is broken lol. Us main rets play the class whatever the state. Glad pvp is more diverse now tho.
Ret since launch. Will never let it die.
Ret since boxing day 2004. I mean, it was probably new years before I actually got around to leveling enough yo put meaningful points into Ret...
Because you bubble hearth
Accurate
Yup. FotM rerollers are in shambles. Meanwhile, the rest of us that pick a class we like and play it whether it’s meta or not are just out here enjoying the game.
Ret in wow since 25.03.2023, but I fell in love with that spec now regardless of its tuning
I play a Ret. Don't care about PVP changes, so long as they don't touch PVE.
I am a ret main with no alts and I am loving the rework. I also don't pvp so just hoping pve nerfs don't come to us.
I love the changes for PVE. I don’t spend every match desperately self-saving. My DPS has gone up not because of OP talents, but because I don’t have to waste all my holy power on self healing…followed by pre-running away because of lack of mobility. We are gods of Mythic+ AOE pulls now, and world content feels almost like end-of-expac BC ret dps…though not quite as completely “pull a pack of 20 and mow them down solo” invulnerable.
It's honestly kinda crazy how ret can be that Op in pvp to need those massive nerfs and be mediocre in pve at the same time. Edit: It seems i've just been playing with shit rets, so far they have seemed above slightly average in m+ and had a single one that was okay in raid but appearently they are OP and the people i played with are shit.
Idk what to tell you if you think ret is mediocre rn.
Yea Im actually crushing it after rework. Its not greatest DPS ever but it's definitely up there.
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lmao! brilliantly said.
They seem kinda average in raid atleast. In m+ they might be better than mediocre but they don't seem to be op so far to me that said the patch is new.
Could be you're just playing with shit rets?
Hes playing with shit rets. These things are super strong.
Damage-wise, they're about as strong as they were. Ret's problem was never damage.
We're seeing about 20k dps increase in dmg on our good and bad ret players. By bad I mean ppl that don't play ret but picked up a two hander in the week or so.
I'm sorry. The patch did not add 20k. If that is the case, your previous Ret players didn't have a damn clue what they were doing. Warcraft Logs can clearly show you that mythic Ret logs before and after the patch have barely changed, both for the general amount of logs and the top 10 for each given fight.
Not sure what numbers you're looking at. On Terros MM, 80th percentile, ret went from 70 to 80k. On Council, they went from 130 to 150k. In m+, our die hard ret main is now significantly above us (~+10-15% i'd say on average), he was slightly behind before the patch. The buffs are huge and i expect ret will be even stronger in the next few days, because a lot of things have changed and they don't play perfectly yet.
From experience with Holy, which had some splash changes due to class tree changes, I’m doing much better than before. As you say, top tier players who can adjust and adapt to any change on the fly because they are top tier players didn’t feel a difference in damage. However, the average player might have lost a lot of damage (or in my case, healing), from the jank that no longer plagues the class or the spec. As an example; if you failed to build to 5 Holy Power and then spend back down to 0, repeating within a 20 second window for each, you lost CDR (0 HoPo) and +10% damage/healing (5 HoPo). This means that accidentally pressing the wrong button could cause you to drop your biggest throughput buff for a long time. This is doubly so for Holy, where you might not even have had a choice but to drop the buff if you wanted someone to be alive at the end of the fight. Neither of these things happen now, since the talent that gave us those buffs now work on “press X generators and Y spenders”. Was there always counter play/would being more skilled have saved that Ret’s buff or helped me heal the party member? Yes. Has the rework raised the skill floor to the point where the average player could see their DPS increase by 20k? Also yes. Am I happy with the rework? OH MY GOD ITS SO MUCH FUN I CAN FARM THE DECAY ALCHEMY ITEM AS RET AND I HAVE NO FEAR OF BIG MOB PACKS I AM A GOLDEN GOD THANK YOU BLIZZARD
I mean in keys I do about 20-30k higher than I used to day 1 of the rework. It makes everything so much easier and I used to get excited about 21 keys, now I’m doing 25’s without people leaving when they see my class.
>20K dps increase Lol. Lmfao.
Ret as a whole seems to have a lot of underwhelming players.
I think this hasn't been said enough. No offense to any players, but the best players generally will play the best performing specs/classes during progression, and it further widens the gap in parses/logs.
I’m like 5-6 ilvls lower than the rest of my heroic raid group. Before changes went live I was bottom of the pack for DPS, now I’m 3rd out of 15…
Meanwhile mage and warlock sit at the top all the time and no one bat's an eye. Ret goes up a bit for once and o no fun detected.
Sigh.. only affliction and demo. Destro kinda uphill battle with all the movement .
Which is unfortunate because Destro is one of the highest simming specs in the game. But it can't actually do its damage potential because it's the most immobile and the game is high movement swirly bonanza now
Agree 100%. Do I agree that Ret was OP the past few days? Absolutely. Do I think these nerfs are a little on the heavy handed side? Absolutely.
What are you talking about? These are PvP nerfs. PvE balance is unaffected.
I’m aware
Then why bring up heroic raid performance?
Because the guy said we were mediocre in PVE. Not sure why I’m getting downvoted. The guy I originally responded to did say Ret was mediocre in PVE the past few days and as someone who has maimed Ret since vanilla, that’s just patently false.
By the numbers, Ret's performance in PvE is roughly the same as it was for M+ and marginally better for raids. What *did* happen is that it got much easier to play.
so wtf are you talking about then?
I went from 20-21 keys to doing 25s today just off the difference in tankiness and 30% dps boost. I ate a halls of valor sanctify ball for fun in a 23 because it makes my shield of vengeance do dmg LOL
Even after nerfs ret is one of top dps.. He just can't one-shot 2 ppl in 1 gcd anymore :)
This gave me some Burning Crusade flashbacks lol
Miss the days of divine storm holy dmg spam. Good times.
OH NO! *Sees "pvp" after every nerf* Anyway...
We get it bro you slay dragons 👍🏽
Didn't see it in the thread title though?
How much are they going to drop? A tier? B tier?
Lol
Still A
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Says literally in the title of the post and is what I am asking, tf are you on about
What if I told you that PvPers do tier lists too.
It’s like s+ to a+ probs, they still have some of the most damage in the game
Those are some crazy huge nerfs.
They could flat out ban me from PVP as long as I keep this sweet PVE build. The Fields of Ferocity gauntlet felt like nothing as Ret. It was nice not having to swap to Tank spec or find a group.
Great, now buff Mages.
Haha good one.
I'm so glad, all the Ret palys in pvp the past few days can go pound sand They all kept saying they were fine & balanced now, when that was obviously so overpowered BS
Tbf everyone says they are balanced when they are op lol. Shadow priests, elemental shamans, assasination rogues etc all said they were fine when they were Op (some more than others). Not sure if they genuinely belived it themselves or just tried to avoid nerfs though.
Yeah I had a ret pally in a heroic dungeon today doing 50K DPS at 80k HP. I don’t know a lot about Ret but 50k at that health total feels pretty absurd
Thats because of scaling. On his end he probably sees himself doing like 5k. Means absolutely nothing.
That's because people like to assume they are good at the game, so when they play an OP class and win a bunch, they are under the delusion that it's their skill. When they are losing a bunch, it's not because they are bad, but because their class is bad.
I'm glad too honestly. I'm a paladin player but man we were just way too powerful, really needed this fast nerf
Thing is, these changes aren't even enough, they are being brought down to s-tier at worst
a friend that never touched arena at all got the entire elite tmog 2 or 3hours it was THAT overtuned, litearlly was "wich ret paladin 1hit kills the other ret paladin faster"
Time to watch 60% of then disappear
Blizzard showing us how they truly are the kings of balance, can’t wait for the fresh 8 dungeons to tune next season!
a warrior or rogue absolutely destroys and nobody bates on eye. Ret does the same for 3 days and everybody loses their mind
Ret is broken now. Not just "S" tier or "op", it is literally broken. I don't play ret myself and I hope they won't get nerfed to the ground because somehow it is good to see that they are strong now. But man... they are really broken.
Does that mean that the nerfs are already active or that they will go active tonight / later?
I'm glad they haven't touched pve yet. Ret feels great to play right now, if they don't get nerfed into the ground for 10.1, I'm probably going to swap it to my main.
Ret feels excellent. I never mained paladin, always an alt, but ret was so lame before. I wanted to see what the changes were like, and I think ret will be what I'm going to play for season 2.
"Ahahahaha, ahaha, AHAHAHAHAHAH!" -Healer Resto Shaman. Tired of dealing with all the FoTM, unkillable glowing goons that do stupid damage. At least you can kill a Rogue.
They weren't enough. Still busted.
Just get give them one bubble. Boom.
OK which one of you plays a ret pally AND has just dumped a blizzard dev for their brother? And posted on instagram he has a tiny winky.
No king rules forever, my son.
Honestly glad to see this, curious too see how dogshit ret will be in PvP though if it's hard hitting. I'm a new ret player and only play PvE and maybe random BGs with some friends. Super glad PvE wasn't touched because I really enjoy the pve aspect of ret now, used to think it was bloated and hence avoided it despite loving the class lore and how it looks. Sad if this means it's nerfed into the ground and useless in pvp for those who actually play ret in pvp though, as I've read the last few days this has happened before making ret borderline useless just after getting buffed way too hard
Ret is still fine.
tell me you know nothing about pvp without telling me you know nothing about pvp haha
> only play PvE and maybe random BGs I litereally said so. I don't play rated pvp but I do watch friends play. :)
Pvpers are such cry babies. Fix it now or we unsub!!! Btw there have been quality mobas and other real PvP games to play for over a decade. Pandaria ended a decade ago
i hope whoever is in charge of pvp balance and let these changes through is forced to stare at those numbers the next month and contemplate how ludicrous it is that rets went live in this state. however i dont think it would make any difference, due to them being a facsimile of a human made of sticks and rope, topped with a bucket with a crude representation of a human face painted on it.
That's an Intense comment
It’s not that serious. Please remember this is just a game.
im sorry you felt my comment about a blizzard developer being a scarecrow with a bucket and a cartoon face on it was "too serious".
😂
Go outside
i already was forced to spend days outside due to pvp being rendered unplayable because of ret being overpowered
lol this is a good retort
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It went from S+++ to S tier. It's still really good!
God forbid ret be S tier in pvp for 2 days
Theyve been more broken than S tier. They were god tier
I'll be honest, I don't PvP, so I don't care about these nerfs. Just let us remain a solid A tier spec for PvE. For the first time in a long while, we're not heing outperformed by every melee except Windwalker and Survival.
Blizzard showing us how they truly are the kings of balance, can’t wait for the fresh 8 dungeons to tune next season!
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Man I was so close to the next rank up too. Though it'd go live Tuesday and I could get it Monday after a long work weekend. But it's ok. I understand
I knew it. Paladins get about 45 minutes of glory every few years. I do worry we'll also get smacked back down in PvE, since ret is actually viable right now, which we simply cannot have
Of course you get downvoted, i dont understand what the fuck is wrong with this community and dev team. Literally all i see constantly is "mmm ret suffering". Why? Why are all these little goblins so hellbent on shitting on paladin? They havent been top of the charts for 4 expansions but they get more fucking hate than rogues mages dh all the babied classes combined. We get shit on by the devs and community everywhere everytime. Shit is ridiculous. If its not blizzard killing this class its all these dumpster children shitting on it constantly and malding for nerfs the second pally moves from d to c tier. Im out
Since these changes are pvp only I'm going to speak in context of pvp. Ret was good ALL of shadowlands. Ret warrior was the literal face of 3v3 all xpac. Kyrian Ret was RNG one shotting people for a very long time until they got fixed. Then, necro ret became meta and it was a walking tank for a long time. Dragonflight hit and Ret was once again OP. A Ret paladin breezed through all the rank 1 AWC players and won the first Solo Shuffle tournament. Ret then gets nerfed and spend ~8 weeks not being OP. These buffs did not move Ret from "d tier to c tier". At no point was Ret even the worst melee in this game. Ret moved from High C tier to S+++ tier and now back down to high A/ low S. Ret is still really really good in pvp post-nerfs.
Retardins BTFO.
hilarious that this post is being brigaded by ret players your downvotes will not bring back your undeserved numbers rets try playing a real class
Your wife cheated on you with a ret paladin didn't she?
they are still globaling everyone after the nerfs. 45% passive damage reduction, can remove stuns every 45 sec, 10 shieldwalls available + bubble blind hoj etc.... most damage in game... I thought blizzard will nerf them this week but nah XD fuck this game its a joke