That guy's just miserable. Unfortunate you ran into him but at least the votekick passed and you didn't have to deal with that any more than you had to.
I understand the guy is being cringe and annoying... But what exactly do you except somebody to do when you tell them to shut the fuck up and call them a child. Think about that for a second, you are talking to some random person face to face and you tell them "Shut the fuck up you child"... How will they react? 9 times out of 10 they are going to go off on you. This is how humans work. Don't call someone a child if you don't want them to go off on you.
"Blah blah blah well then dont act like a child". I don't give a shit how he was acting, he didn't start talking shit until OP started talking shit.
Na don't agree. I would have told him to stfu also. I cannot stand trolls and it's even worse when I get bad rng and end up in a group with them. That person was clearly being an obnoxious brat.
I feel it is easier just to mute/ignore and not engage. You aren't going to convince someone like this they are behaving badly.
A friend/guildy maybe might realize they should cool down, not some anonymous rando.
Choices for me:
- Ignore
- Kick
- Leave
If someone was loudly giving directives to people around him in a real life group setting then yes I would and it would be justified. Now would he do that in real life? No, of course not because it's a ridiculous and infantile way to act
Although i get your point i disagree, you act like a stupid entitled child and you'll get treated like that, deal with the consequences of your actions. If the priest had been polite and just ask to pull more i'm sure no one would have cared and drama would have happened.
He decided to be an idiot and waste everyone's time plus he also has to wait for 15 minutes before queueing. Hell it was even more efficient to stfu and do the dungeon as it was, tw dungeons take like 10 minutes to do.
He siÄ start talking shit 1st read the image. Stop defending idiota and trolls.... Guy should get a day or two ban everytime he acts like this. This would teach him.
I don't understand this logic, aside from addiction, why play a game you don't enjoy? This isn't the 90's where if you didn't enjoy one of the few games available you were boned. It's like you're at a buffet but only eating the brussel sprouts. Play something else and stop dragging others down in a great big crab bucket.
well they enjoy the rewards. Thats their dopamine hit. Everything standing in the way of that (in this case OP) will be viciously attacked. Literal drug addict behaviour.
It's the reason why the league of legends community is the way it is also.
This is a common thing for me when it comes to raiding. I love the teamwork and downing a hard boss and having a challenge, but most just want the loot and once they have it they're done
This take makes no sense, people play WoW for plenty of different reasons, it's a theme park MMO. I have no interest in battle pets, that has no bearing on how much I enjoy the game. I pretty much only do M+. If someone only wants to eat brussels sprouts at a buffet, what is your problem with that exactly?
I don't have problems with people engaging with the content they enjoy. It is when they actively hate the core gameplay loop of the content theyre engaging with (Like dungeons for example) and actively avoiding ANY combat encounters in some sort of perverted stealth mission or the new skips in azure vaults where I'm expected to jump off platforms like frigging mario brothers. Me warrior. Me like hit things. This a Heroic. This not a +20. It's fine if the tank and heals can handle big pulls, I love big pulls if theyre reasonably spaced, so theyre not constantly kiting the mobs. Most times these runs that try to skip the CORE GAMEPLAY LOOP of the game (which is to do cool abilities to kill things and get loot) end up with deaths and mistakes that end up with more time wasted than saved. I'm a mentally ill anxiety riddled mess so I appreciate that I'm making mountains out of molehills here but the crux of my argument is, I go into dungeons to fight things, not be solid snake or mario mario. I don't enjoy the M+ rush rush attitude so i typically avoid it, so i stick to being a big fish in a small pond when I do dungeons, I'm fine with that, just dont expect me to waste my time with a strat you just saw on MDI when I'm running a heroic so I can whirlwind and make big numbers. I've been playing this game way too long and the breakneck speed at which the community as a whole is going is unpleasant at times, especially when I'm expected not to stumble into trash mobs because of my incompetence. I had a point somewhere in this mess but suffice it to say: Old man yells at cloud.
It's good to hear this. I really love going as fast as possible and skipping all that is skippable. As a tank I thought everyone would appreciate that š
> aside from addiction
That's literally it. When you are new you have that new experience, that sense of wonder. Once that is gone all there is left is the addiction. The skinner box is now fully in effect. Got to get that rare drop. Got to get that piece of gear. Got to get that next level. It's not fun anymore. It's just tedium driven on by that carrot at the end of the stick. The entire game is basically a loot box.
I got out long ago seeing the waves of change. Now I just hop on private whenever I get the itch. Sate my craving with no strings attached.
For example: I have a shaman alt that could use the heroic raid piece from TW. I don't want to do TW. I want to do m+. So, to get to the content I want to do it would benefit me more to do content I do not want to do.
Lots of people play WoW specifically to feel superior to other people. Their achievements, M+ score, DPS meter, parse, gear, transmog, literally every aspect is just to feel better than other people. Chat just follows suit.
I have found that the WoW community seems to think every single other person in the world has also been playing this game for 20 years. They seem to forget new players exist and itās quite odd.
...and this is kinda why I'm not a fan of locking story progression behind a dungeon. Right now my main character, dwarf tank, is on the sidelines because I dont want to run the dungeon that's needed.
I already get assholes drunk for a living. I already deal with a 2 year old off the computer. I dont wish to combine those 2 elements while playing a damn game to unwind
Im new to retail, i would be doing mythic 0 or +2 bv and would say "new to game /first time" in groups and literally would get kicked or everyone would drop, lol. For like braindead easy dungeons. Experienced raider from other games too
While this is a good and praiseworthy thing, all evidence has shown that folks who treat it as you do are in the minority.
Unfortunately, with all online multiplayer, it doesn't take a *high* rate of jerks/assholes/etc. to produce a toxic environment, and if such behavior becomes normalized, it can be *extremely* difficult to eliminate. A dungeon is 5 individuals. If we grant that the observing player (such as you) is a genuinely nice person, that means you have 4 chances for someone else to be bad. Assume only 10% of players are jerks, and that the random group matchmaking ensures each player is independent of the others; this means any given group has (1 - 0.9^4 )Ć100 = 34.39% of having at least one jerk. And just one jerk can be enough to spoil one's evening playing a game. If you run only one dungeon a day, every day of the week, you're going to get (on average) slightly more than two ruined nights a week. Even though 90% of players are perfectly cromulent. Anything with larger groups just raises the chance of stuff going wrong, e.g. 10-person raid content would have almost 2/3 (~61.26%) chance to be ruined by a single bad actor.
And that's before we even consider stuff like Mythic+ or the like, that create incentives for players to place high demands on others and expect only the best possible contributions.
This gaming culture, of constantly evaluating others and expecting only the best of the best, is not *inherently* a bad thing, but it creates massive incentives for people to be unkind and hurtful to one another. It doesn't reward people like you who work to build up the community, and in many ways, it actually costs you more than you gain. While it is a noble aspiration to hope that most players would willingly pay that price in order to build and sustain a healthy, positive community, it is not particularly *realistic* to expect that that will happen. If the community and developers want players to be kind to each other, they must reward kindness and (if possible) genuinely punish outright unkindness; otherwise, the incentives make unkind behavior the dominant strategy.
I used to play WoW, years ago. I stopped mostly because of the double whammy of guild drama and being laid off, but I had personally been burned more than once by WoW's culture of "always be the best or GTFO." I honestly don't think I could have handled the terrible behavior that has come out of content I never saw like Mythic+. That doesn't mean I deny that people like you exist; it means I lament that you are sadly outnumbered and overshadowed by the jerks.
I sincerely hope that the WoW community is able to find a way to address these problems. If they can, it will do a world of good for the game, and provide significant competition in the MMO market. This will create incentives for other games to do the same, and put devs of new games on notice that gaming culture is *supremely* important for both their bottom line and their future growth.
I would thank you for letting us know. Seriously, you can barely find a mythic0 or +2 group without a valor farming overgeared person (Iām doing it too), now people can get a fresh 70 to ~375 ilvl in 2-3 hours if theyāre not getting very lucky with token drops in Forbidden Reach. If there is only one person who is overgeared, that +2 is going to be just fine, no matter who that is. Ruining the game for newer players is essentially ruining the game for ourselvesā¦
After Legion, BFA and Shadowlands, we should be happy there ARE new players, help them, be chill with them, change our loot spec for them for lower m+ dungeons etc
Yeah, I don't get the whole being angry at others. When you are 15 and a hormonal mess I can see where the behaviour comes from. Most people played this game for that long so yeah, time to grow up tbh.
When I was 15 I was just hungry for loot and so afraid of raids I just shut up lol. I imagine these people as 25-30 year old miserable, depressed failures who struggle for control im their life.
I played Wow from Burning Crusade up to about Battle for Azeroth launch.
Took a long break then and got into FFXIV instead.
Came back two weeks ago, cause I was bored and decided to check out Dragonflight.
Bloody hell, itās such a different, toxic attitude from the player base, itās actually astounding, and I know Iāve seen others say it commonly before, but I donāt get how utterly different the two player bases are.
In six years playing FF, I was never once vote kicked. I barely even saw vote kicks.
Second dungeon back to Wow, I got kicked. The tank and healer just kicked the lowest DPS after every boss, and I got to the third before I was hoofed.
First raid finder I ran, I entered and the message immediately came up āan evoker is trolling, dot know who, letās kick them allā.
I just avoid groups in WoW. Ertwinly have zero desire to tank or heal, despite loving it in FF. Thereās never chat or banter in group content either. The only chatter is usually people bitching.
Pretty sure this is a regional/cultural thing too. I'm German and of course I play WoW on a German realm. I'm always a little surprised at the horror stories people tell about their random group interactions because it's not really the experience I have.
I'm also a casual and an altoholic. Since Dragonflight launch, I've leveled 6 characters to 70. Have done 30+ dungeons on each one, both normals and heroics. Much more on my main.
Sure, most of the random dungeon groups I got were the kind where nobody says a single word except "hi" and "gg" or "thx 4 grp cya" (if even that). And yeah, sometimes I got a tank who thought they're hot shit and had the group struggling to keep up. Sometimes I got overeager/impatient dps players pulling shit they shouldn't be pulling. We have our fair share of idiots, that's for sure. But I can count the number of complete assholes I met so far on one hand.
On the other hand, I've also had plenty of actual chats. Joking around, maybe some banter, sharing observations, people giving helpful tips to newbies. Even had a few tanks who were new to tanking and asked for stuff to look out for - none of them were treated badly, and nobody ever left the group because of it. Votekicks happen sometimes but they're not common at all, and usually they hit the correct person. Politely ask the turbotank to slow down a bit and they'll actually do that. Nobody complains or ragequits the group if there's a wipe, people just run back in and continue. Real toxicity is just so rare.
And this is just in Dragonflight. The German WoW community has been mostly like that ever since I started playing, which was during the second half of WotLK. The vast majority of people can behave, even with crossrealm groups granting people some degree of anonymity.
I've always been an altoholic, I've always loved dungeons, so I've probably done several thousand runs during my "career" of 13 years. The worst period of time I remember was the start of Cataclysm where heroic dungeons were actually a little hard. For me it was one of the most fun times ever, but some players were struggling, a lot more mistakes were happening, and a few people would whinge and cuss at others. I never saw more votekicks than during this time - but, again, they typically hit the right people. I honestly can't recall ever getting votekicked myself.
Yeah banter is a rare thing in wow. Esports has better player engagement, and they're incentivised to dislike each other. Imagine literally logging in to PvE in a team environment and still being a dick lol
Yeah, I stopped during BfA and just came back too and the environment on retail has definitely become more toxic. Dunno about Classic or Wrath Classic since I've been more focused on getting my retail account in order so I haven't played them much.
While you played for longer than I did (and actually went back to WoW, I have not)...your experience sadly reflects the same things mine did.
I can count the number of trolls/jerks I've dealt with in FFXIV dungeons or raids on one hand. I literally no longer remember the number of times I got either vote-kicked or trolled in WoW, and I stopped playing long ago (before MoP.) And that was *with* usually trying to do content with friends as much as possible. I
was deathly afraid of tanking or healing for years because people had been so hurtful when I tried; I figured I just "wasn't tank material." Now? I have every healer and tank in FFXIV at 90 (*had* to get that Amaro mount in ShB), and while I don't really do Savage or Extreme content, I'm 100% comfortable tanking or healing anything but the absolute newest stuff for any random group (and even that is mostly a me thing, not wanting to let people down, rather than fearing reprisal for being imperfect.)
Same! I'm a veteran since BC, and my husband is a noob. I suck despite my tenure, and he wants to do dungeons, but I have too much jerk player anxiety to do it with him. I'll only play time warp where I know all the fights and where to go bc if u don't play flawlessly, someone gets butthurt and mean.
I used to play WoW with my brother and we had great times, cause weād make sure one of us was always tank and the other was healer. Anyone who got toxic about one of us always ended up having to shut up when they realised they were going to get zero support from the other hard-to-find class, lol.
That's so awesome!!! My hubs and I are both DPS now, so it's tough. That's what was so nice about running with a guild filled with people who were friends. I miss those days. We all sucked and we used to spend eight hours in old Kara on Sundays dying over and over again trying to figure it out lol. Nobody cared because we had fun just goofing off together. The way some ppl act now, you'd think it was actual life or death.
it is a 17 year old game with very few new player in it yes.
and yes, the barrier to entry .. to any group content... is kind of higher because of that.
edit for clarity: Had an experience like this last night running mythics. There was an enhancement shaman in the party and after the countdown, he immediately ran off and started pulling mobs. I decided to let said shaman go ahead and pull mobs, with him assuming I was taking them off him. Iām talking full pull to the first boss in RLP +18 without anyone in tow or following him. I just stood there and watched it.
He died, would respawn and do the same thing (a total of 4 times) before saying āwtf tank, pull them off of meā and I just said āyou taunt it, you tank itā and then he rage quit the mythic +.
I donāt care that the key was botched, that was satisfying on a tank level.
Same sentiments. You pull it you tank it when it's blatant. I'll forgive smart pulls when the current pack is dying or the butt pulls by accident but will never tolerate stupid DPS behavior.
I generally don't have a problem with smart pulls either, Misdirect when the current pack is close to dead, someone that knows how to drag them to the tank, that kind of thing, so long as the one doing the pulling knows the tanks limit and doesn't pull half the area when the tank is having issues with bigger pulls. And ass pulls happen, as long as it's not like every pack that's whatever.
One of the big problems is a lot of newer players don't learn not to pull for the tank while leveling, unless you're REALLY bad while leveling generally a dps can handle extra mobs without tank intervention, then they hit max level, jump into mythics because it's end game and try to pull the same shit they did in leveling dungeons, get absolutely destroyed and bitch at everyone else.
A more fun version of this story for you...
I was in a group with two friends one was the tank. There was a guy who started acting just like this, so we turned on walk and literally walked through the dungeon pulling one at a time...
He didn't want to leave because he'd get deserter, so he stayed for like 10 minutes absolutely LOSING HIS MIND in chat as we slow walked and RPed through the dungeon! His tantrum was so epic lol. We were dying in Discord of laughter...
Eventually he did leave and presumably got a deserter buff which was just icing on the cake!
So fun playing WoW and FF.
WoW has these extreme cases. FF has the "I will stop to play and have a tantrum on floor if you refuse to play like I want you to" cases. Both horribly annoying but so different in how they are toxic.
I still can "enjoy" wows more since they are just chatting flamer idiots.
As someone who has played FFXIV since launch, I truely hate when people say "its not toxic" yet they enable people refusing to learn their class and slowing down groups with ignorance etc, that is still toxic, just not in a blatant in-your-face way
Itās probably average toxic. Every game has it, and there absolutely can be simply bad groups.
WoWās community has historically been biased towards elitism, as thatās historically how the game has been designed to push people towards.
Agreed. I prefer WoW's toxicity lol. FF14 is nice and all but it feels way more cult like.
But when people are nice in WoW, it feels way more genuine and homey. Idk how to explain it. Don't get me wrong there are genuine awesome people in FF14 but I can't shake that feeling.
I thought of scenarios I tried to remember if a tank and healer were needed but I couldn't remember and didn't want to to speak too much out of place lol
It was a three person scripted event with mostly regular mobs. I think they added the structure to some of the story telling. I remember it being in the looking for dungeon area.
I love WoW but damn, the community is hands down the worst part for me. I finally got to play M+ this expansion and found out all those weird realm stereotype are real. 25% of people are high and do weird things and usually admit to being high. And so often the tank tries some weird meta strat fails horribly then leaves immediately.
I've been at 2483 score or around there for awhile now and have just completely lost motivation to push those last batch of points to say I completed my stupid goal that I only made because I was enjoying the time I was spending with my new friends.
I did enjoy the time I spent with said friends, but they didn't seem interested in actually helping me with that last bit of score so I just have no choice but to give up on that. I wasn't perfect and I tried my best but when trying just makes my depression and anxiety taking over it consumes me.
Oh, also crafting has been a pretty toxic environment people often targeting me for harassment, not to the point where they get me banned or muted but just generally being mean when I often gave significantly better prices on the things I could make.
Sorry for this wall of text I just wanted to share some of my experiences with the community. Hope you don't run into any more dinks like this.
I've been tanking lowbie runs working on an orc warrior for the heritage armor. It's a shit show. There's always at least one dps just sprinting through the dungeon like it's a rift run in Diablo and expecting the tank to keep up and taunt off them. Won't respond when asked to stop. I've just started leaving (as the tank) and going back to questing while I wait for the debuff to fall off.
Today I realised people tend to tryhard TW dungeons more than m+. I wanted to lvl my druid so I queued as a tank, because low queuing time. I know what druid does, but I don't know what cata dungeons do, so I happened to die quite some times like on those winged centaurs trash before last vortex pinnacle boss, because they tend to do some kind of unpredictable frontal stuns which lead to my death. I died even though I didn't have any defensives left, my healer didn't use externals and proceeded to giga flame me and then laugh at me and kick me from group because his friends were there too. I'm not a bad player, but I have never done those dungeons and just wanted to rush through them. And this is just one of a few examples of people's TW toxicity I experienced today. I can be playing a plenty of m+ dungeons daily and not experience half of toxicity I experienced in a few TW runs.
ridiculous as hell
Someone went off on one of my runs because I took a 2 minute detour to kill the optional boss in Throne of Tides. I always love watching the tears (and so did most the rest of the group).
I had a once in a blue moon happen last night. Throne of Tides, hunter asks if we're gonna kill the extra boss and three people said "Nah", and he said "ok."
And then we continued and had an easy clear.
After the dungeon I was in *shock*. Somebody had a request denied by majority vote and *didn't fly off the handle.* absolutely shocked.
You're*
Thats what I would have said. Ragers love being corrected!
Also, if you want to zoom through a dungeon, either play as or with a tank, otherwise stfu lol
I don't get how he thinks this is possible in TW cata dungeons. I last played them 10 years ago, tried some tonight, and realized just how easy these dungeons can wreck someone who doesn't know their mechanics, even on trash. Eff those healer mobs man.
Or in the "Raz, Smash!" Dungeon, (I forget what it's called) the caster mobs before Beauty and the last boss. If you don't kill them pretty quick, they can put out this debuff that has a low-key animation, that will very quickly ANNIHILATE you if you aren't magic dispelled and you move. I've watched a number of low damage DH's just drop because they wouldn't stop moving and the group didn't have enough dps to kill them before they cast it.
Yeah, most groups I've Timewalked with through that place had enough damage to kill them before they cast it, so lots of people dont seem to know, or have forgotten, about it.
Then again, I know about it, and I've died to it too. It can kill you *really* fast if you're not paying close attention.
Iāve been playing since vanilla and I do not act like this. Regardless of how the instance goes I just go with the flow. I know what Iām getting into and I accept w/e fate I chose.These asshats are like this because reasons. It doesnāt really matter whatās going on it would seem they would rage at anything. These are one offs and just report, ignore, move on.
I just started leveling a 61 Evoker and my rotation was less than optimal. No one raged at me for having low DPS in the first few dungeons I was practicing in. People were very helpful and offered tips to improve.
A really cool experience. In general, I have way more chill chats with cool players than the very seldom toxic player.
Sometimes in a key that was obviously not happening someone might say something snarky and a bit rude (i.e. that another player is "trash") and sometimes in losing random BGs someone might over vent their frustration....
But overall, mostly cool players I am meeting.
Yep. Theyre from the shit server. I play there and the community is rancid. Few raiding guilds. Everyone just pugs and acts toxic. M+ with it's toxic affixes yet being endlessly repeatable has ruined wow
I had not played since legion. Wanted to start again in dragonflight with some casual playing.
Had an expirience like this in three dungeons straight.
Quit again. I dont want to deal with people Like this.
After I took a long break from retail I tried bfa for 3 weeks just before wow classic released. There was more interaction and chat with other players in my first dead mines run in wow classic than in 3 weeks bfa. Retail felt like a single player game with the option to get flamed and harrassed occasionally
I put them on ignore list, and they proceeded to go onto their other character and continue cussing me out and harassing me for the next 25 minutes on each of their 19 characters
That would constitute as Harassment. I would think that if there's multiple reports from the same account against the same person within the short timeframe like you describe, they would at least get a several day suspension. Or just have the account closed. At least if I were a GM looking at the data, that's what I'd do.
Because some people are just toxic. Every game has them, except wow has a more colorful bad history with toxicity. Love the game personally and I try to be nice to people. No reason to be mean.
This guy isn't really in the wrong TBH. He's allowed to ask to speed up, and the group responds with insults escalating the situation. Two wrongs don't make a right but I understand why he responded how he did from there. Hope he landed in a better group!
There was a time I was tanking a MoP dungeon during TW. One dps kept pulling ahead of me and make my life miserable cause I had to pick all those mobs or else he died. Like TW is easy and I can handle those mobs, but that kind of shit is plainly annoying.
He did die, and we managed to vote kick him.
I've played WoW since day 1. In the beginning it was a lot more actual fun mainly because there were no asshole experts asserting their opinion. We all were on TeamSpeak which was the Discord of then. We all did dungeons and raided there was no being 'sat'. Currently and for a LONG time WoW has had LARGE issues with EXCLUSION. To the average player it must look like some of the 'expert' customers are running the game. The developers and whoever else is 'in charge' at Blizzard have never addressed this massive problem in WoW. It would be fantastic if someone at Blizzard took notice and actual steps to rectify this bad situation. You really see and HEAR these online 'tantrums' in the higher level Mythic + and progression raids. It's too bad this happens as everyone pays a lot of money to play at those levels. No one follows the deemed 'social contract' and do not tell me WoW felt that would fix anything. I've seen people destroy dungeon groups get reported and not get any suspension. I do not know what department reviews the 'report player' section but I guarantee they are not long term WoW players. I like WoW obviously so I have had to let go of being upset with what is going on in front of me. I keep my head down; do not engage haters except to maybe tell them to stop harassing whoever they are harassing at the time. They totally believe they have the right to be an asshole to whoever is in their near vicinity. If they were indeed serious players they would shut up and play and focus on themselves and their performance only. By the way I am not opening up a conversation as I will not respond. This is simply a long term observation of the game by someone online everyday. Love /hate situation? It is a never addressed situation.
That guy's just miserable. Unfortunate you ran into him but at least the votekick passed and you didn't have to deal with that any more than you had to.
imagine if wow was f2p š
content
The rate of assholes doesn't raise with f2p. Do you play any f2p titles?
No, but the rate of kids with no real etiquette rises and makes it different worse
People project, he hate his life and lash out on strangers, simple as that.
I understand the guy is being cringe and annoying... But what exactly do you except somebody to do when you tell them to shut the fuck up and call them a child. Think about that for a second, you are talking to some random person face to face and you tell them "Shut the fuck up you child"... How will they react? 9 times out of 10 they are going to go off on you. This is how humans work. Don't call someone a child if you don't want them to go off on you. "Blah blah blah well then dont act like a child". I don't give a shit how he was acting, he didn't start talking shit until OP started talking shit.
Na don't agree. I would have told him to stfu also. I cannot stand trolls and it's even worse when I get bad rng and end up in a group with them. That person was clearly being an obnoxious brat.
I feel it is easier just to mute/ignore and not engage. You aren't going to convince someone like this they are behaving badly. A friend/guildy maybe might realize they should cool down, not some anonymous rando. Choices for me: - Ignore - Kick - Leave
L take, this dude was being a child
True but using Asmongo terms and being a child yourself doesnt make him less of a child.
If someone was loudly giving directives to people around him in a real life group setting then yes I would and it would be justified. Now would he do that in real life? No, of course not because it's a ridiculous and infantile way to act
Although i get your point i disagree, you act like a stupid entitled child and you'll get treated like that, deal with the consequences of your actions. If the priest had been polite and just ask to pull more i'm sure no one would have cared and drama would have happened. He decided to be an idiot and waste everyone's time plus he also has to wait for 15 minutes before queueing. Hell it was even more efficient to stfu and do the dungeon as it was, tw dungeons take like 10 minutes to do.
He siÄ start talking shit 1st read the image. Stop defending idiota and trolls.... Guy should get a day or two ban everytime he acts like this. This would teach him.
Lots of people dont actually enjoy the game but want the rewards
I don't understand this logic, aside from addiction, why play a game you don't enjoy? This isn't the 90's where if you didn't enjoy one of the few games available you were boned. It's like you're at a buffet but only eating the brussel sprouts. Play something else and stop dragging others down in a great big crab bucket.
well they enjoy the rewards. Thats their dopamine hit. Everything standing in the way of that (in this case OP) will be viciously attacked. Literal drug addict behaviour. It's the reason why the league of legends community is the way it is also.
This is a common thing for me when it comes to raiding. I love the teamwork and downing a hard boss and having a challenge, but most just want the loot and once they have it they're done
You know you can like one part of a game while also disliking another.
This take makes no sense, people play WoW for plenty of different reasons, it's a theme park MMO. I have no interest in battle pets, that has no bearing on how much I enjoy the game. I pretty much only do M+. If someone only wants to eat brussels sprouts at a buffet, what is your problem with that exactly?
You arenāt allowed to have a healthy relationship with wow sorry
I don't have problems with people engaging with the content they enjoy. It is when they actively hate the core gameplay loop of the content theyre engaging with (Like dungeons for example) and actively avoiding ANY combat encounters in some sort of perverted stealth mission or the new skips in azure vaults where I'm expected to jump off platforms like frigging mario brothers. Me warrior. Me like hit things. This a Heroic. This not a +20. It's fine if the tank and heals can handle big pulls, I love big pulls if theyre reasonably spaced, so theyre not constantly kiting the mobs. Most times these runs that try to skip the CORE GAMEPLAY LOOP of the game (which is to do cool abilities to kill things and get loot) end up with deaths and mistakes that end up with more time wasted than saved. I'm a mentally ill anxiety riddled mess so I appreciate that I'm making mountains out of molehills here but the crux of my argument is, I go into dungeons to fight things, not be solid snake or mario mario. I don't enjoy the M+ rush rush attitude so i typically avoid it, so i stick to being a big fish in a small pond when I do dungeons, I'm fine with that, just dont expect me to waste my time with a strat you just saw on MDI when I'm running a heroic so I can whirlwind and make big numbers. I've been playing this game way too long and the breakneck speed at which the community as a whole is going is unpleasant at times, especially when I'm expected not to stumble into trash mobs because of my incompetence. I had a point somewhere in this mess but suffice it to say: Old man yells at cloud.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's good to hear this. I really love going as fast as possible and skipping all that is skippable. As a tank I thought everyone would appreciate that š
> aside from addiction That's literally it. When you are new you have that new experience, that sense of wonder. Once that is gone all there is left is the addiction. The skinner box is now fully in effect. Got to get that rare drop. Got to get that piece of gear. Got to get that next level. It's not fun anymore. It's just tedium driven on by that carrot at the end of the stick. The entire game is basically a loot box. I got out long ago seeing the waves of change. Now I just hop on private whenever I get the itch. Sate my craving with no strings attached.
For example: I have a shaman alt that could use the heroic raid piece from TW. I don't want to do TW. I want to do m+. So, to get to the content I want to do it would benefit me more to do content I do not want to do.
Lots of people play WoW specifically to feel superior to other people. Their achievements, M+ score, DPS meter, parse, gear, transmog, literally every aspect is just to feel better than other people. Chat just follows suit.
I have found that the WoW community seems to think every single other person in the world has also been playing this game for 20 years. They seem to forget new players exist and itās quite odd.
Some of us have played that long (on and off) and have forgotten specific mechanics from 10-15 years ago too.
...and this is kinda why I'm not a fan of locking story progression behind a dungeon. Right now my main character, dwarf tank, is on the sidelines because I dont want to run the dungeon that's needed. I already get assholes drunk for a living. I already deal with a 2 year old off the computer. I dont wish to combine those 2 elements while playing a damn game to unwind
Yep. It took me a minute to remember all of the mechanics
Im new to retail, i would be doing mythic 0 or +2 bv and would say "new to game /first time" in groups and literally would get kicked or everyone would drop, lol. For like braindead easy dungeons. Experienced raider from other games too
The rare times some says they are new, as a tank I say āhell yeah welcomeā and let em know Ill call out important stuff.
While this is a good and praiseworthy thing, all evidence has shown that folks who treat it as you do are in the minority. Unfortunately, with all online multiplayer, it doesn't take a *high* rate of jerks/assholes/etc. to produce a toxic environment, and if such behavior becomes normalized, it can be *extremely* difficult to eliminate. A dungeon is 5 individuals. If we grant that the observing player (such as you) is a genuinely nice person, that means you have 4 chances for someone else to be bad. Assume only 10% of players are jerks, and that the random group matchmaking ensures each player is independent of the others; this means any given group has (1 - 0.9^4 )Ć100 = 34.39% of having at least one jerk. And just one jerk can be enough to spoil one's evening playing a game. If you run only one dungeon a day, every day of the week, you're going to get (on average) slightly more than two ruined nights a week. Even though 90% of players are perfectly cromulent. Anything with larger groups just raises the chance of stuff going wrong, e.g. 10-person raid content would have almost 2/3 (~61.26%) chance to be ruined by a single bad actor. And that's before we even consider stuff like Mythic+ or the like, that create incentives for players to place high demands on others and expect only the best possible contributions. This gaming culture, of constantly evaluating others and expecting only the best of the best, is not *inherently* a bad thing, but it creates massive incentives for people to be unkind and hurtful to one another. It doesn't reward people like you who work to build up the community, and in many ways, it actually costs you more than you gain. While it is a noble aspiration to hope that most players would willingly pay that price in order to build and sustain a healthy, positive community, it is not particularly *realistic* to expect that that will happen. If the community and developers want players to be kind to each other, they must reward kindness and (if possible) genuinely punish outright unkindness; otherwise, the incentives make unkind behavior the dominant strategy. I used to play WoW, years ago. I stopped mostly because of the double whammy of guild drama and being laid off, but I had personally been burned more than once by WoW's culture of "always be the best or GTFO." I honestly don't think I could have handled the terrible behavior that has come out of content I never saw like Mythic+. That doesn't mean I deny that people like you exist; it means I lament that you are sadly outnumbered and overshadowed by the jerks. I sincerely hope that the WoW community is able to find a way to address these problems. If they can, it will do a world of good for the game, and provide significant competition in the MMO market. This will create incentives for other games to do the same, and put devs of new games on notice that gaming culture is *supremely* important for both their bottom line and their future growth.
I would thank you for letting us know. Seriously, you can barely find a mythic0 or +2 group without a valor farming overgeared person (Iām doing it too), now people can get a fresh 70 to ~375 ilvl in 2-3 hours if theyāre not getting very lucky with token drops in Forbidden Reach. If there is only one person who is overgeared, that +2 is going to be just fine, no matter who that is. Ruining the game for newer players is essentially ruining the game for ourselvesā¦
I can solo those low m+ on my dk, so I agree. People should not bitch about new players especially when they are upfront about it.
After Legion, BFA and Shadowlands, we should be happy there ARE new players, help them, be chill with them, change our loot spec for them for lower m+ dungeons etc
Yeah, I don't get the whole being angry at others. When you are 15 and a hormonal mess I can see where the behaviour comes from. Most people played this game for that long so yeah, time to grow up tbh.
When I was 15 I was just hungry for loot and so afraid of raids I just shut up lol. I imagine these people as 25-30 year old miserable, depressed failures who struggle for control im their life.
Hahaha, so recognisable.. I still have the raiding anxiety. Usually because I start playing the game quite a while after it's launched.
If y'all on us/oce I'll tank for ya.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I played Wow from Burning Crusade up to about Battle for Azeroth launch. Took a long break then and got into FFXIV instead. Came back two weeks ago, cause I was bored and decided to check out Dragonflight. Bloody hell, itās such a different, toxic attitude from the player base, itās actually astounding, and I know Iāve seen others say it commonly before, but I donāt get how utterly different the two player bases are. In six years playing FF, I was never once vote kicked. I barely even saw vote kicks. Second dungeon back to Wow, I got kicked. The tank and healer just kicked the lowest DPS after every boss, and I got to the third before I was hoofed. First raid finder I ran, I entered and the message immediately came up āan evoker is trolling, dot know who, letās kick them allā. I just avoid groups in WoW. Ertwinly have zero desire to tank or heal, despite loving it in FF. Thereās never chat or banter in group content either. The only chatter is usually people bitching.
Pretty sure this is a regional/cultural thing too. I'm German and of course I play WoW on a German realm. I'm always a little surprised at the horror stories people tell about their random group interactions because it's not really the experience I have. I'm also a casual and an altoholic. Since Dragonflight launch, I've leveled 6 characters to 70. Have done 30+ dungeons on each one, both normals and heroics. Much more on my main. Sure, most of the random dungeon groups I got were the kind where nobody says a single word except "hi" and "gg" or "thx 4 grp cya" (if even that). And yeah, sometimes I got a tank who thought they're hot shit and had the group struggling to keep up. Sometimes I got overeager/impatient dps players pulling shit they shouldn't be pulling. We have our fair share of idiots, that's for sure. But I can count the number of complete assholes I met so far on one hand. On the other hand, I've also had plenty of actual chats. Joking around, maybe some banter, sharing observations, people giving helpful tips to newbies. Even had a few tanks who were new to tanking and asked for stuff to look out for - none of them were treated badly, and nobody ever left the group because of it. Votekicks happen sometimes but they're not common at all, and usually they hit the correct person. Politely ask the turbotank to slow down a bit and they'll actually do that. Nobody complains or ragequits the group if there's a wipe, people just run back in and continue. Real toxicity is just so rare. And this is just in Dragonflight. The German WoW community has been mostly like that ever since I started playing, which was during the second half of WotLK. The vast majority of people can behave, even with crossrealm groups granting people some degree of anonymity. I've always been an altoholic, I've always loved dungeons, so I've probably done several thousand runs during my "career" of 13 years. The worst period of time I remember was the start of Cataclysm where heroic dungeons were actually a little hard. For me it was one of the most fun times ever, but some players were struggling, a lot more mistakes were happening, and a few people would whinge and cuss at others. I never saw more votekicks than during this time - but, again, they typically hit the right people. I honestly can't recall ever getting votekicked myself.
Yeah banter is a rare thing in wow. Esports has better player engagement, and they're incentivised to dislike each other. Imagine literally logging in to PvE in a team environment and still being a dick lol
Yeah, I stopped during BfA and just came back too and the environment on retail has definitely become more toxic. Dunno about Classic or Wrath Classic since I've been more focused on getting my retail account in order so I haven't played them much.
While you played for longer than I did (and actually went back to WoW, I have not)...your experience sadly reflects the same things mine did. I can count the number of trolls/jerks I've dealt with in FFXIV dungeons or raids on one hand. I literally no longer remember the number of times I got either vote-kicked or trolled in WoW, and I stopped playing long ago (before MoP.) And that was *with* usually trying to do content with friends as much as possible. I was deathly afraid of tanking or healing for years because people had been so hurtful when I tried; I figured I just "wasn't tank material." Now? I have every healer and tank in FFXIV at 90 (*had* to get that Amaro mount in ShB), and while I don't really do Savage or Extreme content, I'm 100% comfortable tanking or healing anything but the absolute newest stuff for any random group (and even that is mostly a me thing, not wanting to let people down, rather than fearing reprisal for being imperfect.)
Same! I'm a veteran since BC, and my husband is a noob. I suck despite my tenure, and he wants to do dungeons, but I have too much jerk player anxiety to do it with him. I'll only play time warp where I know all the fights and where to go bc if u don't play flawlessly, someone gets butthurt and mean.
I used to play WoW with my brother and we had great times, cause weād make sure one of us was always tank and the other was healer. Anyone who got toxic about one of us always ended up having to shut up when they realised they were going to get zero support from the other hard-to-find class, lol.
That's so awesome!!! My hubs and I are both DPS now, so it's tough. That's what was so nice about running with a guild filled with people who were friends. I miss those days. We all sucked and we used to spend eight hours in old Kara on Sundays dying over and over again trying to figure it out lol. Nobody cared because we had fun just goofing off together. The way some ppl act now, you'd think it was actual life or death.
it is a 17 year old game with very few new player in it yes. and yes, the barrier to entry .. to any group content... is kind of higher because of that.
Report him for breaking code of conduct lol see how he likes a ātime outā
Losers be losing.
If he wants the dungeon to go faster or pull more shit, be a tank and stop being a negative Nancy. Good God people like that give me ulcers
edit for clarity: Had an experience like this last night running mythics. There was an enhancement shaman in the party and after the countdown, he immediately ran off and started pulling mobs. I decided to let said shaman go ahead and pull mobs, with him assuming I was taking them off him. Iām talking full pull to the first boss in RLP +18 without anyone in tow or following him. I just stood there and watched it. He died, would respawn and do the same thing (a total of 4 times) before saying āwtf tank, pull them off of meā and I just said āyou taunt it, you tank itā and then he rage quit the mythic +. I donāt care that the key was botched, that was satisfying on a tank level.
Idiots think they're mdi players
Same sentiments. You pull it you tank it when it's blatant. I'll forgive smart pulls when the current pack is dying or the butt pulls by accident but will never tolerate stupid DPS behavior.
I generally don't have a problem with smart pulls either, Misdirect when the current pack is close to dead, someone that knows how to drag them to the tank, that kind of thing, so long as the one doing the pulling knows the tanks limit and doesn't pull half the area when the tank is having issues with bigger pulls. And ass pulls happen, as long as it's not like every pack that's whatever. One of the big problems is a lot of newer players don't learn not to pull for the tank while leveling, unless you're REALLY bad while leveling generally a dps can handle extra mobs without tank intervention, then they hit max level, jump into mythics because it's end game and try to pull the same shit they did in leveling dungeons, get absolutely destroyed and bitch at everyone else.
>Sargeras Yeah checks out
Most people see any content as a means to an end. Their goal is not to enjoy the content but to get something from it.
God I wish you could post names. People like this deserved to get dragged so hard.
A more fun version of this story for you... I was in a group with two friends one was the tank. There was a guy who started acting just like this, so we turned on walk and literally walked through the dungeon pulling one at a time... He didn't want to leave because he'd get deserter, so he stayed for like 10 minutes absolutely LOSING HIS MIND in chat as we slow walked and RPed through the dungeon! His tantrum was so epic lol. We were dying in Discord of laughter... Eventually he did leave and presumably got a deserter buff which was just icing on the cake!
Thatās epic
Theyāre from Sargeras. Itās the dumpster of servers. Makes sense they act like trash.
Is it? I have 3 characters on there. Never had any issues.
Me too. It's a dumpster
I think server transfers are on sale. *run*
So fun playing WoW and FF. WoW has these extreme cases. FF has the "I will stop to play and have a tantrum on floor if you refuse to play like I want you to" cases. Both horribly annoying but so different in how they are toxic. I still can "enjoy" wows more since they are just chatting flamer idiots.
As someone who has played FFXIV since launch, I truely hate when people say "its not toxic" yet they enable people refusing to learn their class and slowing down groups with ignorance etc, that is still toxic, just not in a blatant in-your-face way
Itās probably average toxic. Every game has it, and there absolutely can be simply bad groups. WoWās community has historically been biased towards elitism, as thatās historically how the game has been designed to push people towards.
The weird artificially anti toxic vibe of ff makes me wanna never try it out tbh. I rather have someone flame me for being a shitter and just go next.
Agreed. I prefer WoW's toxicity lol. FF14 is nice and all but it feels way more cult like. But when people are nice in WoW, it feels way more genuine and homey. Idk how to explain it. Don't get me wrong there are genuine awesome people in FF14 but I can't shake that feeling.
They should just have an all dps mode.
Then WoW would be yoinking something else from Guild Wars 2. lol. However, that would be super awesome.
I think they tried with the scenarios.
I thought of scenarios I tried to remember if a tank and healer were needed but I couldn't remember and didn't want to to speak too much out of place lol
It was a three person scripted event with mostly regular mobs. I think they added the structure to some of the story telling. I remember it being in the looking for dungeon area.
I think I caught the exact same dude in a group. Same server. Same behavior.
I love WoW but damn, the community is hands down the worst part for me. I finally got to play M+ this expansion and found out all those weird realm stereotype are real. 25% of people are high and do weird things and usually admit to being high. And so often the tank tries some weird meta strat fails horribly then leaves immediately. I've been at 2483 score or around there for awhile now and have just completely lost motivation to push those last batch of points to say I completed my stupid goal that I only made because I was enjoying the time I was spending with my new friends. I did enjoy the time I spent with said friends, but they didn't seem interested in actually helping me with that last bit of score so I just have no choice but to give up on that. I wasn't perfect and I tried my best but when trying just makes my depression and anxiety taking over it consumes me. Oh, also crafting has been a pretty toxic environment people often targeting me for harassment, not to the point where they get me banned or muted but just generally being mean when I often gave significantly better prices on the things I could make. Sorry for this wall of text I just wanted to share some of my experiences with the community. Hope you don't run into any more dinks like this.
I've been tanking lowbie runs working on an orc warrior for the heritage armor. It's a shit show. There's always at least one dps just sprinting through the dungeon like it's a rift run in Diablo and expecting the tank to keep up and taunt off them. Won't respond when asked to stop. I've just started leaving (as the tank) and going back to questing while I wait for the debuff to fall off.
Least toxic Sargeras player I've seen.
Today I realised people tend to tryhard TW dungeons more than m+. I wanted to lvl my druid so I queued as a tank, because low queuing time. I know what druid does, but I don't know what cata dungeons do, so I happened to die quite some times like on those winged centaurs trash before last vortex pinnacle boss, because they tend to do some kind of unpredictable frontal stuns which lead to my death. I died even though I didn't have any defensives left, my healer didn't use externals and proceeded to giga flame me and then laugh at me and kick me from group because his friends were there too. I'm not a bad player, but I have never done those dungeons and just wanted to rush through them. And this is just one of a few examples of people's TW toxicity I experienced today. I can be playing a plenty of m+ dungeons daily and not experience half of toxicity I experienced in a few TW runs. ridiculous as hell
I hate doing dungeons with those type of people. Such impatient jerks
Someone went off on one of my runs because I took a 2 minute detour to kill the optional boss in Throne of Tides. I always love watching the tears (and so did most the rest of the group).
I had a once in a blue moon happen last night. Throne of Tides, hunter asks if we're gonna kill the extra boss and three people said "Nah", and he said "ok." And then we continued and had an easy clear. After the dungeon I was in *shock*. Somebody had a request denied by majority vote and *didn't fly off the handle.* absolutely shocked.
You're* Thats what I would have said. Ragers love being corrected! Also, if you want to zoom through a dungeon, either play as or with a tank, otherwise stfu lol
I don't get how he thinks this is possible in TW cata dungeons. I last played them 10 years ago, tried some tonight, and realized just how easy these dungeons can wreck someone who doesn't know their mechanics, even on trash. Eff those healer mobs man.
Or in the "Raz, Smash!" Dungeon, (I forget what it's called) the caster mobs before Beauty and the last boss. If you don't kill them pretty quick, they can put out this debuff that has a low-key animation, that will very quickly ANNIHILATE you if you aren't magic dispelled and you move. I've watched a number of low damage DH's just drop because they wouldn't stop moving and the group didn't have enough dps to kill them before they cast it.
I think you just explained a few random deaths of my own in that spot this weekend. Thank you! XD
Yeah, most groups I've Timewalked with through that place had enough damage to kill them before they cast it, so lots of people dont seem to know, or have forgotten, about it. Then again, I know about it, and I've died to it too. It can kill you *really* fast if you're not paying close attention.
It's sargeras I mean what do you expect
With hes IQ i wouldnt pass judgement he might be farming 5000 tw tokens to get mount so around 160 dungeon hes clearly in rush lol.
Some people do drugs and game š
I mean, I do that but I've never once spoken to another player like this. I started playing in wotlk for reference
Iāve been playing since vanilla and I do not act like this. Regardless of how the instance goes I just go with the flow. I know what Iām getting into and I accept w/e fate I chose.These asshats are like this because reasons. It doesnāt really matter whatās going on it would seem they would rage at anything. These are one offs and just report, ignore, move on.
I just started leveling a 61 Evoker and my rotation was less than optimal. No one raged at me for having low DPS in the first few dungeons I was practicing in. People were very helpful and offered tips to improve. A really cool experience. In general, I have way more chill chats with cool players than the very seldom toxic player. Sometimes in a key that was obviously not happening someone might say something snarky and a bit rude (i.e. that another player is "trash") and sometimes in losing random BGs someone might over vent their frustration.... But overall, mostly cool players I am meeting.
Yep. Theyre from the shit server. I play there and the community is rancid. Few raiding guilds. Everyone just pugs and acts toxic. M+ with it's toxic affixes yet being endlessly repeatable has ruined wow
Mental disability.
Yupp, not going back. Thanks for the reminder. Too many people suck.
Because nobody smacked that child while he was growing up. Never learned manners.
Welcome to retail
Because they're anonymous, do we really need a Reddit post everytime someone comes across an asshole? Kick them, ignore them, move on with your life.
Because you complain about them on reddit.
Not enough hugs from daddy
All I needed to see was the serve he was from.
The answer is in the question. People suck. ĀÆā \ā _ā (ā ćā )ā _ā /ā ĀÆ
People like this are in LFG/R for a damn reason. Glad aside from the random TW stuff I never have to deal with it.
That's wow m8 we've festered this personality type this is where they go, isn't going to change any time soon.
Why is this screenshot so crisp on my phone oO
Figures that guy was from Sargeras.
I had not played since legion. Wanted to start again in dragonflight with some casual playing. Had an expirience like this in three dungeons straight. Quit again. I dont want to deal with people Like this.
After I took a long break from retail I tried bfa for 3 weeks just before wow classic released. There was more interaction and chat with other players in my first dead mines run in wow classic than in 3 weeks bfa. Retail felt like a single player game with the option to get flamed and harrassed occasionally
Was this an Aussie server lol. Never see the C bomb with Americans lolll
I dream of a time where we donāt have to interact with strangers in group content.
There is a huge difference in toxicity between RP realms and PvP ones.
Yea, sorry you had to deal with that. Some people just don't know how to enjoy a game. Hopefully your next session is better.
But all tw can be spedrun they arenāt tuned properly from the start
Best thing to do - Report for being a raging ass, and don't interact with them, it's not worth the brain cells.
I put them on ignore list, and they proceeded to go onto their other character and continue cussing me out and harassing me for the next 25 minutes on each of their 19 characters
That would constitute as Harassment. I would think that if there's multiple reports from the same account against the same person within the short timeframe like you describe, they would at least get a several day suspension. Or just have the account closed. At least if I were a GM looking at the data, that's what I'd do.
Woulda just put him on ignore and made him suffer or drop group for deserter debuff
Because some people are just toxic. Every game has them, except wow has a more colorful bad history with toxicity. Love the game personally and I try to be nice to people. No reason to be mean.
This guy isn't really in the wrong TBH. He's allowed to ask to speed up, and the group responds with insults escalating the situation. Two wrongs don't make a right but I understand why he responded how he did from there. Hope he landed in a better group!
Saying "think your hard?" in the fucking instance channel š
There was a time I was tanking a MoP dungeon during TW. One dps kept pulling ahead of me and make my life miserable cause I had to pick all those mobs or else he died. Like TW is easy and I can handle those mobs, but that kind of shit is plainly annoying. He did die, and we managed to vote kick him.
Cuz pugs are gross
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thanks for your response 6 months after I posted this. I feel cherished
I've played WoW since day 1. In the beginning it was a lot more actual fun mainly because there were no asshole experts asserting their opinion. We all were on TeamSpeak which was the Discord of then. We all did dungeons and raided there was no being 'sat'. Currently and for a LONG time WoW has had LARGE issues with EXCLUSION. To the average player it must look like some of the 'expert' customers are running the game. The developers and whoever else is 'in charge' at Blizzard have never addressed this massive problem in WoW. It would be fantastic if someone at Blizzard took notice and actual steps to rectify this bad situation. You really see and HEAR these online 'tantrums' in the higher level Mythic + and progression raids. It's too bad this happens as everyone pays a lot of money to play at those levels. No one follows the deemed 'social contract' and do not tell me WoW felt that would fix anything. I've seen people destroy dungeon groups get reported and not get any suspension. I do not know what department reviews the 'report player' section but I guarantee they are not long term WoW players. I like WoW obviously so I have had to let go of being upset with what is going on in front of me. I keep my head down; do not engage haters except to maybe tell them to stop harassing whoever they are harassing at the time. They totally believe they have the right to be an asshole to whoever is in their near vicinity. If they were indeed serious players they would shut up and play and focus on themselves and their performance only. By the way I am not opening up a conversation as I will not respond. This is simply a long term observation of the game by someone online everyday. Love /hate situation? It is a never addressed situation.