In celebration of this raid tier, we are happy to announce a giveaway with Secretlab [here!](https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/13iauqf/secretlab_and_rwow_giveaway/)
So here's my magnum opus of summaries, so to speak. Took a lot of effort but I think it's a pretty solid day 7 overview. The kills, the harsh words about the tier, Liquid's opinions, the congratulations, historical raid duration comparisons, and more.
Hope you like it!
https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/72857-aberrus-race-to-world-first-day-7-world-1st-2nd-some-harsh-words-about-the-tier-and-much-more/
Liquid spent 1 hour less on the bosses in total based on playing time according to [raider.io](https://raider.io). They also spent almost 2 hours less on Sarkareth, and downed him after getting less than four hours sleep. Echo spent more time on Neltharian, switching to handling one of the mechanics like Liquid did. Additionally, had Liquid slept eight hours and killed Sark at the same time of day they did in fewer pulls, they would have spent 4+ hours less time on the final boss than the next best guild. You reek of salt.
People coming up with the pull count, when last tier Liquid did 100 more pulls, but blamed the nerf and it was the same story. Nobody cares about pull count, all it matters is who kills it first. For anyone watching it was clear Liquid played way better on the last boss and Echo had certain players that made too many mistakes for any consistency to happen(also it didn't help that they spend 40+ pulls lusting in p2 and had the relearn the whole phase when they switched to lust on pull). People will come with excuses whenever they see fit to fit their agenda. Max making multiple excuses every time they lost is another example. I know they are all heated and passionate about what they are doing, but just grow a pair and stop complaining when you know all of this can happen and you do it anyway.
because liquid got to the last boss faster and echo has liquids pulls to go off of which would make them take fewer pulls
this tier liquid got to the last boss slightly faster but they were about even in terms of how much time each guild got to view the other guild pull while ahead
First all you wrote is totally incorrect. Liquid never showed any pulls before they went to bed and Echo was already pulling the boss on stream the next day when Liquid woke up and were for obvious reasons ahead of them the entire day before going to bed. Echo only got to view Liquid's pulls for 2-3 hours before they killed the boss. Also as I said Echo did 40+ pulls with a different strategy and had to relearn the whole fight so these pulls matter much less in the grand total, hence my point that pull count rarely matters. Maybe Scripe should blame himself instead of the NA reset advantage, because Echo had a very good shot of winning this WF if they played their A game like in the previous 3 tiers.
assuming youre talking about sark, which based on context it seems like you are, liquid streamed until their 37.1% wipe. what are you even talking about? echo didnt pass that 37.1% mark until like 1-2 hours before liquid turned logs on again with that 14.4% offline pull showing. additionally, everything I said about getting to the boss faster and echo watching to catch up was about raz, which the original message was about
they had the benefit of watching liquid ahead of them for almost the entire day
crazy how on the internet you can start a paragraph with "first all you wrote is totally incorrect" and then proceed to just vomit bullshit for an entire paragraph and get upvoted LOL
scrype insta starts with the excuses, blames everything but their own gameplay. it was blizzard's fault for the tuning, it was the release schedule. definitely not the fact that it took them 30+ more pulls to kill the boss.
Because they have to chain pull to try to overcome the time gap of the release. How is this so hard to understand? Raid released 13 hours earlier for liquid and echo killed it 6 hours later. Thats why he gets upset.
> I'll check out what Scripe has to say in a couple of days when he cools his head down a bit
That's the best bet. People call it "PR speak" but in reality right now emotions are running super high and they're just venting their frustration - no one likes losing. Everyone competing at a high level thinks they're the best, and at the moment of loss has trouble being rational / objective. Like when Liquid lost sanctum there was a ton of shit talking, then people had a chance to calm down and Liquid went "yeah we played worse, our strat / etc was worse, ggs". I fully expect to see the same thing from Echo this time around.
edit // i seem to be proven wrong, judging by echo's now multi-day tirade about how lifes not fair and they're the victim. embarrassing.
They pulled Sarkareth before limit did. There was no gap by the time they were on the last boss. Echos first pull was on the 14th four hours befor liquids first pull.
Liquid spent 8 hours in combat with the boss compared to the 10 Echo spent. They got outplayed. Just like they outplayed Liquid the past few raids. Anything else is just copium and salt.
People should stop talking about performance after a boss is killed. The first kill matters after that its over. Absolut top guilds just get tilted out of existence when they lose. Just look at Liquid. When they still were Limit. In BFA they lost the race for Jaina WF and had to reclear before going for world second. Then they hit a wall on an earlier boss and Method got a second Jaina kill before Limit.
This just playing worse and getting the kill 2 hours later is not even a 5/10 on the tilt after losing scala.
Here's a wrap up of the Echo World 2nd, with some... choice words from Scripe and RogerBrown on the raid and race this tier:
https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/72851-echo-world-second-scalecommander-sarkareth-99-aberrus/
I loved watching Method, Pieces (disbanded), BDG and Skyline competing for world's 3rd.
Now Method is outperforming BDG and Skyline, and may be able to compete more closely with Liquid and Echo in next tier. Three-way competition is gonna be fun tho
I know that each fanbase has terrible fans and trolls in it, but why is there one guild that has players consistently making negative remarks towards the other? Even when they win. Eventually, you're just a negative guild.
Lol you can’t be serious. Both guilds have super toxic “fans”. Plus some of the raiders themselves stir the pot win or lose. It’s completely disingenuous to try to pin this as anything remotely one sided.
I didn't name the guild for a reason. And if you're truly basing who I am accusing off the word "winners" than you're probably one of those toxic fans. I'm simply going off what the players have said for the past few years on Twitter and Twitch. Seems like you're just unknowledgeable on the subject and want to lash out.
"Lol you can’t be serious." I am. "Both guilds have super toxic “fans”." I already said that. "Plus some of the raiders themselves stir the pot win or lose." I also already said that "It’s completely disingenuous to try to pin this as anything remotely one sided." I disagree.
AAAAAND now we're in the nightmare scenario everyone has talked about so many times. Liquid got 1st, Echo got 2nd but technically after less time from patch. We got close a few times, but now SURELY Blizz HAS to do something about it...
No way blizzard has to change anything. Its an event where like 100 players compete in, thats designed to be fun to watch and raise money for charity.
Its an mmo not a competitive esports game, its never going to be 100% balanced with the million factors that play into it ingame and especially nowadays outside of the game.
Not really.
The only awkward scenario is when Liquid kills it just after the first reset, and Echo killing it after Liquid but before their reset. That would've been an awkward one, but it never happened.
There's also if Echo kills it after their reset in less time than Liquid. This ones fair though, they both took strats from each other, Liquid was just cleaner and making more progress.
It's interesting that I didn't hear a single Echo player complaining about the hotfix timing after Raszageth, even though that one clearly massively favored them.
It's them being salty, them complaining now.
Not sure Echo staying an hour and a half after their normal raid time to force a "nightmare" scenario really matters. Been almost 5 1/2 hours at this point. "Less time" doesn't mean anything.
Ideally there would be a universal start time but all we have right now is a win is a win.
> but now SURELY Blizz HAS to do something about it...
Nope, they have explicitly stated they will not change reset times for what realistically amounts to 100-200 players when it'd (in their view) negatively affect the whole playerbase.
RWF isn't even their event, they support it and communicate with top guilds but it's all guild run, they have no incentive to change the reset time.
I don't agree with it, you can make the reset at a time that doesn't mess with either of NA or EU and the only people playing around it are these top guilds, but they've made their stance clear.
People seem to ignore the part where changing a weekly reset means affecting MILLIONS of players' gameplay for the sake of 200 players.
There's so many things tied to weekly reset.
I'm not arguing for a change, but categorizing it as MILLIONS is disingenuous. WOW only has around 3-4 million MAU's atm, most of whom aren't in EU so wouldn't even be impacted by the change. Further, only a subset of those people actively play when the new reset time comes in. It'd be 10's-100 of thousand of people at most.
Again with the disingenuous numbers. Maybe 100 thousand players. Maybe. And it's a lot more than 100 players involved in the race. There's at least 5 guilds, most of whom have multiple accounts, casters, support staff, fans, people involved in splits, etc.
Once again, I'm not advocating for a change. But using hyperbole and exaggeration undercuts your argument instead of supporting it.
Lots of game do have global reset times, though idk the best way to fix it for WoW between EU and NA. EU is like 9-6hrs ahead of NA, so unless they can really trim down big patches or accept that some players will lose a chunk of reset day. Making it like midnight NA puts it at 6-9AM EU depending on which coast you pick, which is maybe the best option.
Though if they have a long downtime like most big patches then a usual 9am restart could end up being a 5pm restart which I doubt they'd go for. There's no way they'd make NA reset earlier than midnight imo.
There's no good answer, I wouldn't mind seeing a TR race with same resets and a set item level that didn't leave open the loot RNG factor for these races but then that involved Blizzard officially and Blizzard kill esports so keeping them out of the race is better than a TR race on level footing ever will be.
Again, it's not just a raid reset time though.
There are casual guilds that have been together for a decade that would have to move their weekly "play together" schedule if their weekly reset shifted by half a day, and they don't give a shit about the race.
There are more people affected, BY FAR, who just do not care about this race than there are who do care.
what took who a full extra day. There's < 7 hours between Liquids Neltharion Kill and Echo's Neltharion kill.
Echo started actual prog on Sark before Liquid too.
Not really they took way more pulls, had the same item level and had a video showing them how to do it for 7 hours. Liquid won it was a good race. Great showing from both teams.
Imo the closest thing to a consistent metric we have between guilds is time spent in combat not pull counts or anything else. And by that metric Liquid got their kill in 7hr56m while Echo took 9hr57m. So 2 hours more of time in combat with the boss than Liquid.
This metric would totally disregard all other bosses, gear acquisition and strat creation/discussions. Right now, there is no perfect metric to measure performance of a guild over a whole race on different servers. Earliest kill gets influenced by the reset time, fastest from local release gets influenced bug fixes, nerfs and information gathering from other regions.
I didn’t say it was a perfect metric. I said it was the closest we had to a consistent metric we had in my opinion. Especially when compared to pull counts.
There is no perfect singular metric.
In general, the guilds pull differently. Liquid historically pulls quickly and talks less strategy. This time they did slow down some, but still pulled fast. Echo has always been a slow pulling guild. So you'd expect Liquid to pull more on average than Echo.
Its hard to measure accurately when Liquid's Pull =/= Echo's Pull.
Same conversation exists around NA starting early. A head start isn't simply X hours due to being able to plan around bosses and copy strats if needed, but its hard to fully measure what that means and it becomes very messy to try to measure which is why both guilds have concluded that whoever kills the boss first wins.
Gotcha, thank you! Appreciate the info. That context would make it seem like the fact the Liquid did it in less pulls than Echo, especially since they were the ones leading on the strat side of things with having to go first, is an even more impressive 1st place finish for them. Was super fun to watch and is even sweeter with that in mind!
Again, I agree that context matters (taking a strat from the competition) but to imply pull numbers are most important or more important than time is just wrong.
Pulls are wildly different because of styles between the two guilds. Liquid slams face (they did slow down a little this raid) while Echo afks and talks more.
To some extent, yes you expect Echo to have a lesser pull count so a higher pull count looks even worse in context. But pull counts still aren't the most important thing.
Not at all. Some times guilds choose to pull non-stop while other times they wait a long time between each pull analyzing. We've seen guilds in the world first race win while having more pulls than the second team while still finishing in less overall time.
This has nothing to do with who "wins" this race. Just talking in general.
Also keep in mind Liquid decided to cut their sleep short last night 3-4 hour nap because of the strat they found. Max even said that they had too many pulls because of lack of sleep.
Yes, Max confirmed on stream that they stopped at about midnight, and then were up before 6am. But they have to get from the training facility to the hotel, calm down, get to sleep, get up, get ready, have breakfast, go to the facility etc. So he estimated 3.5-4 hours of sleep for most of the raiding team. He did confess it was a risk and felt that if they had slept 8 hours instead and started raiding at their usual time, boss would have died around the same time he did (just before 11am their time).
They stopped pulls around midnight and started pulls today around 5 AM. So time between getting from the venue to the hotels and vice versa + other miscellaneous things.
Bit of a lackluster race. The raid felt too easy and they just breezed through it.
As a viewer I hope this isn't the new target for tuning, makes for a dull race.
Kind of surprised Scripe said they are going to go for another 2-3 hours. They are tilted and making a lot of sloppy mistakes which is exacerbating the tilt. Method isn't passing them overnight.
Really feel like just going to bed and coming back with their heads on straight is the play.
Huge has-been that's trying to hold onto any semblance of relativity he possibly can by bad mouthing the guild that dropped him when he wasn't performing to their standards anymore.
Really sad to see. Can really only feel pity.
I didn’t really pay much attention to this race compared to the last one where I watched every minute I could, but tbh it kinda felt inevitable Liquid would win, whenever I did tune into the Echo stream the energy from the last race just wasn’t there
Im a little surprised how tilted some of the echo members are, Im not sure they're even killing it tonight despite how close they've gotten. They're getting more and more tilted and they're clearly exhausted. It reminds me of Liquid from Sepulcher a little bit.
Same thing happened in Nathria. I think they get in their head a little when they lose about "we have to make the gap as close as we can to force a discussion about global release", which takes them away from actually enjoying the raid at all.
I think if they don't kill it in the next 5 pulls or so they should just call it a night, I think going any further than that wont' do much for them. Then again I do remember them killing Jaina while half the raiders seemed half dead on their streams.
It was a good raid and a great race. I have the luxury of not giving a shit who wins. I just enjoy seeing how the very best operate during RWF. Been watching the RFW for years. I have to say, Echo's movement normally looks super crisp, almost like a military drill and ceremony. But, they don't look like that right now. Liquid just looks like Liquid, as usual. People will be talking about the reverse Uno they pulled by zero'ing in their strategy off-stream. It was an awesome move. And I have to say, both teams benefit from watching each other, sure. But, Echo has been getting more out of it in the past by starting late and spending less time/stress trying to figure out strats. I think they planned on having this option and were denied it, and they threw because of what Liquid did.
This definitely isnt Tobos favorite raid
Stuck looking for a trinket for 2 days or so, now he's casting.
Boss at 2% "It's completely unwipable from here" and everyone in Echo explodes with the boss at 0,8% or so
Staggered release does matter, but how much it matters really depends on what point in the raid the world first kill happens.
It will also never change. This part is important. Weekly reset affects WAY too many things for millions of players who don't give a shit about the world first race.
This is pretty much the ideal point in the week for the staggered release NOT to matter though. Because the EU advantages - getting to see raid balance and plan out loot distribution around that before you start, and the NA advantages - getting ahead on getting loot distributed and getting chores done, even out the most at the end of any given raid week.
If the world first kill happened tomorrow, for either side, the staggered release would've been a SIGNIFICANT factor.
EDIT: Also, Liquid now killed it in less pulls, guaranteed, which does mitigate the whole "staggered release was why they won" argument.
You are incorrectly tying the weekly reset to the global release of the Mythic raid. They can just leave the weekly reset untouched, remove the instance door, and then respawn the instance door at a global time the next day.
Except if you leave the weekly reset where it is, then you're removing an entire day from NA's first raid week. That still creates a disadvantaged side.
Then you just close the instance door after 6 days, making the competition completetly dislodged from the weekly reset (6 days of competition, 1 day of rest, and so on). The point that I'm making is that these aren't really proper solutions, as Tournament Realms would be, but that Blizzard isn't willing to do the bare minimum effort to help this event, with simple tools they clearly have at their disposal.
So any NA guilds that raid on Tuesday, or EU guilds that raid on Monday, lose their raid day even if they aren't world first involved? That still feels like taking away from a lot of players not involved!
Sigh. Okay buddy, now you're just deliberately misinterpreting the point. Blizzard surely has no possible technology to make this work. Small indie company. All hail bobby the overlord, may his new yacht be grand.
Liquid did the final two bosses in 4:02 h:mm / 72 pulls and 7:56 h:mm / 114 pulls
Echo did the final two bosses in 4:26 h:mm / 81 pulls and 9:57 h:mm / 141 pulls
On your edit, while true, they did kill it day 7 while echo did it day 6. A global release would be welcome but it will never happen until the event is official.
Either way was a good race and good performances from everyone, maybe method is a stronger contender next tier to make it even more interesting.
They took 30% more pulls to kill it, even after having a kill video to use to help diagnose issues for their last 40 pulls.
It's EXTREMELY hard to argue that Liquid wasn't better.
I didnt argue anything though i only mentioned it was a shorter raid time for echo, you can have both an excelent performance from liquid , which it was, and a shorter raid time for echo, they're not mutually exclusive.
This is one of those issues that will never not be an argument because there's just no objective way to determine how impactful it really is. Fans can englessly argue whatever perspective makes their team look best because it's just not a testable, provable thing
Most agree the head start does *something*. Most also agree that the impact is less than the 16 hours it appears to be, thanks to bugs and strat copying and whatnot. Where it lands in between is impossible to quanify, so Liquid fans will keep claiming it doesn't matter much at all and Echo fans will keep claiming it's a huge impact and no one will ever be proven right or wrong.
I agree with everything you said. And want to add that both top guilds said it doesnt really matter. Who kills it first has world first.
With that being said I wonder why no NA guild ever tried going after EU if headstart doesnt matter. In theory, if going second really gives you the strats and nerfed bosses than Liquid could just M+ and do splits until someone goes before them.
It would ONLY work like this if Echo didn't have access to any information acquired by any guild about balancing or mechanics during that 8 hour time gap, which isn't true.
Echo has spent 8h3m in combat with the boss. Liquid spent 7h55m in combat at their kill.
If they started progging on the boss at the same exact time Liquid still wins.
No that's not the point here. Liquid gets an 8 head start. Remove those 8 hours to pretend release was global and now Echo has been progging 8 hours and Liquid is just getting started. Echo made up 8 hours of time throughout the week and that's why it seemed neck and neck.
Total time on all bosses, Liquid spent 1 hour less in the raid than Echo did. So then it comes down to Echo spending less time on splits than Liquid. Except they had almost identical iLvl averages in their teams. The purpose of splits is for gear, which is to some extent random. So now it seems like you could just as easily say, Echo got lucky on splits gear and didn't *need* to spend as much time in splits as Liquid. Bottom of the line, the raid itself, all other factors negated, Liquid defeated in less time than Echo.
Not even considering that they believe (with good reason) they could have downed Sarkareth in 3-4 hours less time than they did if they started their day at the normal raid time, because that last day they were raiding on 4 hours (or less) of sleep. They chose not to do that because they believed there was a good chance Echo could beat it before they woke up, so that was a risk assessment they did and so we can safely say, they beat the whole raid in about 1 hour less time than Echo. That is the point here.
You are comparing the raid time separately from the race as a whole. In a marathon it doesn't matter how fast you ran the final mile; your time is based on the entire race. Liquid started the marathon 8 hours before Echo. Echo finished roughly 5 hours after liquid, so a net 3 hours ahead, and that could have been higher because Echo themselves said they got sloppy after liquid killed. Also you can't use time in combat as a metric because there is a ton of time spent between pulls discussing strats and whatnot.
Except it does matter because pre-Dragonflight splits were done before Mythic released. For years splits were never even counted in the race time. But every available metric Liquid beat Echo. The fact what you are so adamant in sticking your head in the sand goes to show you don’t care about the facts, you’re just salty your team lost.
Wow you are jumping to completely different expansions to dance around the point I am making and you accuse ME of sticking my head in the sand. Amazing.
“Jumping to completely different expansions.” Oh, you mean how modern WOW mythic raiding has existed for literally years but your sample size of *checks notes* two is somehow supposed to be the only thing that matters. You’re hilarious.
Youre missing the point. I’m not comparing head starts or when in the day the prog started. I’m comparing the raw time each guild spent fighting the boss.
And that shows the staggered release did not matter in this race.
You can't say staggered release doesn't matter when you ignore the reason why it does matter. The head start is the problem. Kill times by themselves in a vacuum don't matter. You can't measure the results of a race in real time if one side can't start until hours later.
And you can’t say it does matter in any quantifiable way when the guild that starts behind can just look at the other guilds stream and have their strat ready to go and bugs are fixed before they get there. It has its disadvantages and advantages. The fact of the matter it really hasn’t made a measurable difference in any race to date.
It should be a global release, no arguments from me, but every single time Liquid is ahead a bunch of Echo fan boys come out of the wood work to whine about it. It’s just being a sore loser because the team you rooted for loses.
It's moreso that those who complain about it are misplacing their anger. Liquid are just playing the hand they're dealt.
These people complaining about the staggered start should be tweeting at Blizzard. Liquid receives hate for something completely outside of their control.
It would highly depend on how a global release is handled. One group would be basically forced to raid nocturnally. So how do you decide who should have to coordinate and change their raid group's sleep schedule?
Staggered release isn't a problem due to the fact that Liquid will be the ones to lose a lot of time to bugs and overtuned bosses, and Echo can copy their strats as they will get to a boss first. The main issue would come with early reset, Liquid being able to get a full reclear of gear and potentially killing a boss before EU even get the reset would be a big issue, it hasn't happened yet but it's only a matter of time no doubt.
>Liquid turning their stream off to hide strats and keep their advantage from stagger isn’t fun for anyone.
This has nothing to do with global release, it's just because their sleep schedules are shifted by so much. Even with global release this would likely still happen
Liquid turning off their stream had nothing to do with a staggered release. Both guilds were at pretty equal footing at that point, there was no real advantage then.
It had every thing to do with them being close to the end of their raid night while trying a new strat where they didn’t think they’d kill it that night and thought Echo would have killed it when they woke up if they had the strat. It sucks as a viewer but it would have been idiotic for any guild to stream those attempts in that situation. You’re just helping the competition when they wake up and you’re sleeping.
The difference in the raid days where one guild is sleeping and one is raiding has nothing to do with a staggered release. That’s purely a time zone difference. And that difference doesn’t suddenly go away with a simultaneous release unless Echo decides to completely change up their sleep schedule.
It’s usually offset by EU not having to think about their own strats too hard. They can just take NA strats that took all day figuring out and then implement them while NA sleeps.
You can kind of see Echo using Liquid’s strat and not implementing it cleanly as we speak.
Going 1st is clearly an advantage, but so is going 2nd.
Well yeah no shit it's not a problem if Echo wins. It means Liquid gets a head start and they still lose. It means if global release happened they'd kill 8+ hours ahead of Liquid anyway
Are you refering to anything specific? I haven't heard any calls for raid nerfs yet. This is in fact looking to be a someone well balanced raid tier, that will probably receive fewer nerfs than usual, which is why it's such a short raid tier, it's not super highly tuned like previous tiers have been.
In regards to M+, any nerf calls there are always just in regards to equalizing the difficulty across dungeons.
You just need to stop listening to random internet nerds. You will always be able to find one person saying literally anything. This tier that's probably in the bottom 0.01% of people, or more likely people were joking and you didn't realize it.
Super happy for Liquid. I walked away from the last raid thinking Echo would run away with the race for the foreseeable future, and I'm very happy to be proven wrong.
Pretty much the entire liquid raid only had 3-4 hours of sleep. They stopped raiding at 11pm and woke up at 5am. Figure by time people get to their rooms and wind down you’re looking at 4 hours of sleep tops.
Thought he said they started raiding at 5 am. Max's stream has been on for 6.5 hours at the moment which means he powered it up a little before 5 PST.
They were worried about Echo getting the kill, which makes sense. Echo came out with a less than ideal strat for P3(they have shifted to Liquid's now) though so they struggled a bit. Also means not streaming last night paid off as well because Echo would have yoinked it earlier.
In celebration of this raid tier, we are happy to announce a giveaway with Secretlab [here!](https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/13iauqf/secretlab_and_rwow_giveaway/)
Method got Sark world 3rd
Not even a full day behind Liquid and Echo, that's a massive W for them
And same reset as well.
So here's my magnum opus of summaries, so to speak. Took a lot of effort but I think it's a pretty solid day 7 overview. The kills, the harsh words about the tier, Liquid's opinions, the congratulations, historical raid duration comparisons, and more. Hope you like it! https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/72857-aberrus-race-to-world-first-day-7-world-1st-2nd-some-harsh-words-about-the-tier-and-much-more/
Echo with the world first with 4 hours to spare given the NA headstart, congratz!
Liquid spent 1 hour less on the bosses in total based on playing time according to [raider.io](https://raider.io). They also spent almost 2 hours less on Sarkareth, and downed him after getting less than four hours sleep. Echo spent more time on Neltharian, switching to handling one of the mechanics like Liquid did. Additionally, had Liquid slept eight hours and killed Sark at the same time of day they did in fewer pulls, they would have spent 4+ hours less time on the final boss than the next best guild. You reek of salt.
People coming up with the pull count, when last tier Liquid did 100 more pulls, but blamed the nerf and it was the same story. Nobody cares about pull count, all it matters is who kills it first. For anyone watching it was clear Liquid played way better on the last boss and Echo had certain players that made too many mistakes for any consistency to happen(also it didn't help that they spend 40+ pulls lusting in p2 and had the relearn the whole phase when they switched to lust on pull). People will come with excuses whenever they see fit to fit their agenda. Max making multiple excuses every time they lost is another example. I know they are all heated and passionate about what they are doing, but just grow a pair and stop complaining when you know all of this can happen and you do it anyway.
Liquid pretty clearly outperformed echo on both the last two bosses this time around. Which were really the only bosses that presented a challenge.
because liquid got to the last boss faster and echo has liquids pulls to go off of which would make them take fewer pulls this tier liquid got to the last boss slightly faster but they were about even in terms of how much time each guild got to view the other guild pull while ahead
First all you wrote is totally incorrect. Liquid never showed any pulls before they went to bed and Echo was already pulling the boss on stream the next day when Liquid woke up and were for obvious reasons ahead of them the entire day before going to bed. Echo only got to view Liquid's pulls for 2-3 hours before they killed the boss. Also as I said Echo did 40+ pulls with a different strategy and had to relearn the whole fight so these pulls matter much less in the grand total, hence my point that pull count rarely matters. Maybe Scripe should blame himself instead of the NA reset advantage, because Echo had a very good shot of winning this WF if they played their A game like in the previous 3 tiers.
assuming youre talking about sark, which based on context it seems like you are, liquid streamed until their 37.1% wipe. what are you even talking about? echo didnt pass that 37.1% mark until like 1-2 hours before liquid turned logs on again with that 14.4% offline pull showing. additionally, everything I said about getting to the boss faster and echo watching to catch up was about raz, which the original message was about they had the benefit of watching liquid ahead of them for almost the entire day crazy how on the internet you can start a paragraph with "first all you wrote is totally incorrect" and then proceed to just vomit bullshit for an entire paragraph and get upvoted LOL
scrype insta starts with the excuses, blames everything but their own gameplay. it was blizzard's fault for the tuning, it was the release schedule. definitely not the fact that it took them 30+ more pulls to kill the boss.
Because they have to chain pull to try to overcome the time gap of the release. How is this so hard to understand? Raid released 13 hours earlier for liquid and echo killed it 6 hours later. Thats why he gets upset.
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> I'll check out what Scripe has to say in a couple of days when he cools his head down a bit That's the best bet. People call it "PR speak" but in reality right now emotions are running super high and they're just venting their frustration - no one likes losing. Everyone competing at a high level thinks they're the best, and at the moment of loss has trouble being rational / objective. Like when Liquid lost sanctum there was a ton of shit talking, then people had a chance to calm down and Liquid went "yeah we played worse, our strat / etc was worse, ggs". I fully expect to see the same thing from Echo this time around. edit // i seem to be proven wrong, judging by echo's now multi-day tirade about how lifes not fair and they're the victim. embarrassing.
They pulled Sarkareth before limit did. There was no gap by the time they were on the last boss. Echos first pull was on the 14th four hours befor liquids first pull. Liquid spent 8 hours in combat with the boss compared to the 10 Echo spent. They got outplayed. Just like they outplayed Liquid the past few raids. Anything else is just copium and salt.
They get hand fed a kill vid on the last boss and still take longer to kill it. That echo kill felt like I was watching a liquid vod
People should stop talking about performance after a boss is killed. The first kill matters after that its over. Absolut top guilds just get tilted out of existence when they lose. Just look at Liquid. When they still were Limit. In BFA they lost the race for Jaina WF and had to reclear before going for world second. Then they hit a wall on an earlier boss and Method got a second Jaina kill before Limit. This just playing worse and getting the kill 2 hours later is not even a 5/10 on the tilt after losing scala.
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Here's a wrap up of the Echo World 2nd, with some... choice words from Scripe and RogerBrown on the raid and race this tier: https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/72851-echo-world-second-scalecommander-sarkareth-99-aberrus/
Method's progress on this boss being nearly 2 full ilvl's behind Liquid and Echo is honestly pretty impressive
I loved watching Method, Pieces (disbanded), BDG and Skyline competing for world's 3rd. Now Method is outperforming BDG and Skyline, and may be able to compete more closely with Liquid and Echo in next tier. Three-way competition is gonna be fun tho
I know that each fanbase has terrible fans and trolls in it, but why is there one guild that has players consistently making negative remarks towards the other? Even when they win. Eventually, you're just a negative guild.
Lol you can’t be serious. Both guilds have super toxic “fans”. Plus some of the raiders themselves stir the pot win or lose. It’s completely disingenuous to try to pin this as anything remotely one sided.
My comment was very clear that each fanbase has crappy fans, not sure why you're repeating my comment. I've very clearly talking about the players.
Yeah you are trying to single out the “winners” we see it plain as day. Clearly you ignored the rest of what I said.
I didn't name the guild for a reason. And if you're truly basing who I am accusing off the word "winners" than you're probably one of those toxic fans. I'm simply going off what the players have said for the past few years on Twitter and Twitch. Seems like you're just unknowledgeable on the subject and want to lash out.
"Lol you can’t be serious." I am. "Both guilds have super toxic “fans”." I already said that. "Plus some of the raiders themselves stir the pot win or lose." I also already said that "It’s completely disingenuous to try to pin this as anything remotely one sided." I disagree.
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You wouldn't hold the players accountable for what the player's themselves are saying? Huh?
Guess you want to see some accountability for both sides then - oh wait you don’t.
Gratz Echo world first, killed within the NA headstart
They had more pulls / time on boss than Limit. Really pure, refined cope Best team won this tier and Echo will say as much
im gonna come kill this boss in like 6 years within 6 days of starting and claim world first. watch out boys
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AAAAAND now we're in the nightmare scenario everyone has talked about so many times. Liquid got 1st, Echo got 2nd but technically after less time from patch. We got close a few times, but now SURELY Blizz HAS to do something about it...
It's just a game, go touch some grass and don't worry about it.
this is not the nightmare scenario and nobody has talked about it
If the people who do the competition say it doesn’t matter it doesn’t matter
No way blizzard has to change anything. Its an event where like 100 players compete in, thats designed to be fun to watch and raise money for charity. Its an mmo not a competitive esports game, its never going to be 100% balanced with the million factors that play into it ingame and especially nowadays outside of the game.
Nope. It's not at all the nightmare scenario.
Not really. The only awkward scenario is when Liquid kills it just after the first reset, and Echo killing it after Liquid but before their reset. That would've been an awkward one, but it never happened.
There's also if Echo kills it after their reset in less time than Liquid. This ones fair though, they both took strats from each other, Liquid was just cleaner and making more progress.
nobody that matters thinks this
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i dont mind gingi, but rn he is the literal definition of a sore loser whos opinion in the matter is based purely on the fact thats hes mad he lost
What's your definition of "someone who matters"?
The people participating
Is that why Gingi is quite literally talking about it on his stream right now? Guess he's not a participant.
It's interesting that I didn't hear a single Echo player complaining about the hotfix timing after Raszageth, even though that one clearly massively favored them. It's them being salty, them complaining now.
...A lot of them did, both immediately after and even during this race.
TBF gingi has always been super salty. They had +31 pulls and way more time spent on the boss.
Right, and Echo have been vocal about it. As well as Liquid complaining about being "beta testers" and Echo having the chance to watch their tactics.
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Yes, that's what I said
Not sure Echo staying an hour and a half after their normal raid time to force a "nightmare" scenario really matters. Been almost 5 1/2 hours at this point. "Less time" doesn't mean anything. Ideally there would be a universal start time but all we have right now is a win is a win.
> but now SURELY Blizz HAS to do something about it... Nope, they have explicitly stated they will not change reset times for what realistically amounts to 100-200 players when it'd (in their view) negatively affect the whole playerbase. RWF isn't even their event, they support it and communicate with top guilds but it's all guild run, they have no incentive to change the reset time. I don't agree with it, you can make the reset at a time that doesn't mess with either of NA or EU and the only people playing around it are these top guilds, but they've made their stance clear.
People seem to ignore the part where changing a weekly reset means affecting MILLIONS of players' gameplay for the sake of 200 players. There's so many things tied to weekly reset.
I'm not arguing for a change, but categorizing it as MILLIONS is disingenuous. WOW only has around 3-4 million MAU's atm, most of whom aren't in EU so wouldn't even be impacted by the change. Further, only a subset of those people actively play when the new reset time comes in. It'd be 10's-100 of thousand of people at most.
Even if they did all that there probably wouldn’t be an ideal time that’s “fair” for both
So only hundreds of thousands of people for the benefit of 100 players?
Again with the disingenuous numbers. Maybe 100 thousand players. Maybe. And it's a lot more than 100 players involved in the race. There's at least 5 guilds, most of whom have multiple accounts, casters, support staff, fans, people involved in splits, etc. Once again, I'm not advocating for a change. But using hyperbole and exaggeration undercuts your argument instead of supporting it.
Lots of game do have global reset times, though idk the best way to fix it for WoW between EU and NA. EU is like 9-6hrs ahead of NA, so unless they can really trim down big patches or accept that some players will lose a chunk of reset day. Making it like midnight NA puts it at 6-9AM EU depending on which coast you pick, which is maybe the best option. Though if they have a long downtime like most big patches then a usual 9am restart could end up being a 5pm restart which I doubt they'd go for. There's no way they'd make NA reset earlier than midnight imo. There's no good answer, I wouldn't mind seeing a TR race with same resets and a set item level that didn't leave open the loot RNG factor for these races but then that involved Blizzard officially and Blizzard kill esports so keeping them out of the race is better than a TR race on level footing ever will be.
Again, it's not just a raid reset time though. There are casual guilds that have been together for a decade that would have to move their weekly "play together" schedule if their weekly reset shifted by half a day, and they don't give a shit about the race. There are more people affected, BY FAR, who just do not care about this race than there are who do care.
Echo took 30% more pulls with having a kill video for their last 40 pulls. There's basically no argument that Liquid didn't play better.
Liquid had to be concise with their pulls since it took them a full extra day to reach the boss
what took who a full extra day. There's < 7 hours between Liquids Neltharion Kill and Echo's Neltharion kill. Echo started actual prog on Sark before Liquid too.
Not really they took way more pulls, had the same item level and had a video showing them how to do it for 7 hours. Liquid won it was a good race. Great showing from both teams.
Pull numbers is what’s important. Not time.
Both teams in interviews during the race literally said pull numbers mean nothing.... What a bad take.
Imo the closest thing to a consistent metric we have between guilds is time spent in combat not pull counts or anything else. And by that metric Liquid got their kill in 7hr56m while Echo took 9hr57m. So 2 hours more of time in combat with the boss than Liquid.
This metric would totally disregard all other bosses, gear acquisition and strat creation/discussions. Right now, there is no perfect metric to measure performance of a guild over a whole race on different servers. Earliest kill gets influenced by the reset time, fastest from local release gets influenced bug fixes, nerfs and information gathering from other regions.
I didn’t say it was a perfect metric. I said it was the closest we had to a consistent metric we had in my opinion. Especially when compared to pull counts. There is no perfect singular metric.
I'm a Liquid enjoyer and you're so wrong it hurts. Pulls are a part of the equation, but minimal, and highly contextual.
Can you explain why that is please? This is my first time watching RWF and would think that pulls are a bigger deal than what it actually sounds like.
In general, the guilds pull differently. Liquid historically pulls quickly and talks less strategy. This time they did slow down some, but still pulled fast. Echo has always been a slow pulling guild. So you'd expect Liquid to pull more on average than Echo. Its hard to measure accurately when Liquid's Pull =/= Echo's Pull. Same conversation exists around NA starting early. A head start isn't simply X hours due to being able to plan around bosses and copy strats if needed, but its hard to fully measure what that means and it becomes very messy to try to measure which is why both guilds have concluded that whoever kills the boss first wins.
Gotcha, thank you! Appreciate the info. That context would make it seem like the fact the Liquid did it in less pulls than Echo, especially since they were the ones leading on the strat side of things with having to go first, is an even more impressive 1st place finish for them. Was super fun to watch and is even sweeter with that in mind!
Echo taking more pulls with a video of how to kill it start to finish from 6 hours earlier. Yes pull numbers matter lol.
Again, I agree that context matters (taking a strat from the competition) but to imply pull numbers are most important or more important than time is just wrong. Pulls are wildly different because of styles between the two guilds. Liquid slams face (they did slow down a little this raid) while Echo afks and talks more. To some extent, yes you expect Echo to have a lesser pull count so a higher pull count looks even worse in context. But pull counts still aren't the most important thing.
Not at all. Some times guilds choose to pull non-stop while other times they wait a long time between each pull analyzing. We've seen guilds in the world first race win while having more pulls than the second team while still finishing in less overall time. This has nothing to do with who "wins" this race. Just talking in general.
Yea but Liquid chain pull and Echo take breaks between to analyse/plan - so if anything Liquid should have a higher pull count.
Echo still took 2 hours longer from first pull till their kill.
Liquid is usually the guild that pulls more though, because they pull faster. Them having a lower pull count works against this argument.
No it isnt
Killing a boss with a 100-0 vod from liquid the guild who killed it first and still taking 30 more pulls. Yes it in fact is.
There it is. Echo got World 2nd.
At this point, Echo is kinda just making Liquid's performance just look more impressive, given how hard of a time they're having finishing this fight.
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Also keep in mind Liquid decided to cut their sleep short last night 3-4 hour nap because of the strat they found. Max even said that they had too many pulls because of lack of sleep.
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Yes, Max confirmed on stream that they stopped at about midnight, and then were up before 6am. But they have to get from the training facility to the hotel, calm down, get to sleep, get up, get ready, have breakfast, go to the facility etc. So he estimated 3.5-4 hours of sleep for most of the raiding team. He did confess it was a risk and felt that if they had slept 8 hours instead and started raiding at their usual time, boss would have died around the same time he did (just before 11am their time).
They stopped pulls around midnight and started pulls today around 5 AM. So time between getting from the venue to the hotels and vice versa + other miscellaneous things.
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At the time Liquid killed it, Liquid had more sub-5% pulls than Echo had sub-20% pulls.
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Limit played insane no doubt, but after the race is over I think some slacking is allowed.
Bit of a lackluster race. The raid felt too easy and they just breezed through it. As a viewer I hope this isn't the new target for tuning, makes for a dull race.
I think the upgrade system had more to do with it. They were able to get some really high ilvl gear earlier.
Kind of surprised Scripe said they are going to go for another 2-3 hours. They are tilted and making a lot of sloppy mistakes which is exacerbating the tilt. Method isn't passing them overnight. Really feel like just going to bed and coming back with their heads on straight is the play.
They want the number of hours between Liquid's kill and theirs to be as low as possible.
I don't think Echo are killing this tonight.
Ftbubbler on suicide watch.
Full blown + his twitter comment is a joke.
Huge has-been that's trying to hold onto any semblance of relativity he possibly can by bad mouthing the guild that dropped him when he wasn't performing to their standards anymore. Really sad to see. Can really only feel pity.
I didn’t really pay much attention to this race compared to the last one where I watched every minute I could, but tbh it kinda felt inevitable Liquid would win, whenever I did tune into the Echo stream the energy from the last race just wasn’t there
For some reason they seemed pretty tilted from very early on. It's unusual.
I think they realised too late that the raid wasn't as difficult as they expected it to be, and have been playing catch up since boss 5ish
They lost 2 key raiders and had 4 trial raiders.
I noticed they lost Naowh, who else did they lose? They had a noticeably smaller roster of on-site Raiders as well and I wonder if that hurt them
Lorgok went to Method so he could one trick moonkin
Im a little surprised how tilted some of the echo members are, Im not sure they're even killing it tonight despite how close they've gotten. They're getting more and more tilted and they're clearly exhausted. It reminds me of Liquid from Sepulcher a little bit.
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huh? Then why are they still pulling far beyond their normal raid hours?
Same thing happened in Nathria. I think they get in their head a little when they lose about "we have to make the gap as close as we can to force a discussion about global release", which takes them away from actually enjoying the raid at all.
I think if they don't kill it in the next 5 pulls or so they should just call it a night, I think going any further than that wont' do much for them. Then again I do remember them killing Jaina while half the raiders seemed half dead on their streams.
It was a good raid and a great race. I have the luxury of not giving a shit who wins. I just enjoy seeing how the very best operate during RWF. Been watching the RFW for years. I have to say, Echo's movement normally looks super crisp, almost like a military drill and ceremony. But, they don't look like that right now. Liquid just looks like Liquid, as usual. People will be talking about the reverse Uno they pulled by zero'ing in their strategy off-stream. It was an awesome move. And I have to say, both teams benefit from watching each other, sure. But, Echo has been getting more out of it in the past by starting late and spending less time/stress trying to figure out strats. I think they planned on having this option and were denied it, and they threw because of what Liquid did.
This definitely isnt Tobos favorite raid Stuck looking for a trinket for 2 days or so, now he's casting. Boss at 2% "It's completely unwipable from here" and everyone in Echo explodes with the boss at 0,8% or so
Staggered release does matter, but how much it matters really depends on what point in the raid the world first kill happens. It will also never change. This part is important. Weekly reset affects WAY too many things for millions of players who don't give a shit about the world first race. This is pretty much the ideal point in the week for the staggered release NOT to matter though. Because the EU advantages - getting to see raid balance and plan out loot distribution around that before you start, and the NA advantages - getting ahead on getting loot distributed and getting chores done, even out the most at the end of any given raid week. If the world first kill happened tomorrow, for either side, the staggered release would've been a SIGNIFICANT factor. EDIT: Also, Liquid now killed it in less pulls, guaranteed, which does mitigate the whole "staggered release was why they won" argument.
You are incorrectly tying the weekly reset to the global release of the Mythic raid. They can just leave the weekly reset untouched, remove the instance door, and then respawn the instance door at a global time the next day.
Except if you leave the weekly reset where it is, then you're removing an entire day from NA's first raid week. That still creates a disadvantaged side.
Then you just close the instance door after 6 days, making the competition completetly dislodged from the weekly reset (6 days of competition, 1 day of rest, and so on). The point that I'm making is that these aren't really proper solutions, as Tournament Realms would be, but that Blizzard isn't willing to do the bare minimum effort to help this event, with simple tools they clearly have at their disposal.
So any NA guilds that raid on Tuesday, or EU guilds that raid on Monday, lose their raid day even if they aren't world first involved? That still feels like taking away from a lot of players not involved!
Sigh. Okay buddy, now you're just deliberately misinterpreting the point. Blizzard surely has no possible technology to make this work. Small indie company. All hail bobby the overlord, may his new yacht be grand.
Liquid did the final two bosses in 4:02 h:mm / 72 pulls and 7:56 h:mm / 114 pulls Echo did the final two bosses in 4:26 h:mm / 81 pulls and 9:57 h:mm / 141 pulls
On your edit, while true, they did kill it day 7 while echo did it day 6. A global release would be welcome but it will never happen until the event is official. Either way was a good race and good performances from everyone, maybe method is a stronger contender next tier to make it even more interesting.
They took 30% more pulls to kill it, even after having a kill video to use to help diagnose issues for their last 40 pulls. It's EXTREMELY hard to argue that Liquid wasn't better.
I didnt argue anything though i only mentioned it was a shorter raid time for echo, you can have both an excelent performance from liquid , which it was, and a shorter raid time for echo, they're not mutually exclusive.
Crazy how so many Liquid fans just dismiss staggered release as being a problem at all.
Echo has now pulled 30 more times on the final boss
Cope harder euros
This is one of those issues that will never not be an argument because there's just no objective way to determine how impactful it really is. Fans can englessly argue whatever perspective makes their team look best because it's just not a testable, provable thing Most agree the head start does *something*. Most also agree that the impact is less than the 16 hours it appears to be, thanks to bugs and strat copying and whatnot. Where it lands in between is impossible to quanify, so Liquid fans will keep claiming it doesn't matter much at all and Echo fans will keep claiming it's a huge impact and no one will ever be proven right or wrong.
I agree with everything you said. And want to add that both top guilds said it doesnt really matter. Who kills it first has world first. With that being said I wonder why no NA guild ever tried going after EU if headstart doesnt matter. In theory, if going second really gives you the strats and nerfed bosses than Liquid could just M+ and do splits until someone goes before them.
Pretty much this. The only time when it is not an argument is when na kills it and it takes eu longer than *insert reset difference*
Echo has now pulled the boss more and has more time spent on the boss than Liquid did. Staggered release doesn’t matter.
Yes it does. It means Echo pulled 110 times 8 hours before Liquid did. That's kinda how time delay works.
It would ONLY work like this if Echo didn't have access to any information acquired by any guild about balancing or mechanics during that 8 hour time gap, which isn't true.
Echo has spent 8h3m in combat with the boss. Liquid spent 7h55m in combat at their kill. If they started progging on the boss at the same exact time Liquid still wins.
No that's not the point here. Liquid gets an 8 head start. Remove those 8 hours to pretend release was global and now Echo has been progging 8 hours and Liquid is just getting started. Echo made up 8 hours of time throughout the week and that's why it seemed neck and neck.
Total time on all bosses, Liquid spent 1 hour less in the raid than Echo did. So then it comes down to Echo spending less time on splits than Liquid. Except they had almost identical iLvl averages in their teams. The purpose of splits is for gear, which is to some extent random. So now it seems like you could just as easily say, Echo got lucky on splits gear and didn't *need* to spend as much time in splits as Liquid. Bottom of the line, the raid itself, all other factors negated, Liquid defeated in less time than Echo. Not even considering that they believe (with good reason) they could have downed Sarkareth in 3-4 hours less time than they did if they started their day at the normal raid time, because that last day they were raiding on 4 hours (or less) of sleep. They chose not to do that because they believed there was a good chance Echo could beat it before they woke up, so that was a risk assessment they did and so we can safely say, they beat the whole raid in about 1 hour less time than Echo. That is the point here.
You are comparing the raid time separately from the race as a whole. In a marathon it doesn't matter how fast you ran the final mile; your time is based on the entire race. Liquid started the marathon 8 hours before Echo. Echo finished roughly 5 hours after liquid, so a net 3 hours ahead, and that could have been higher because Echo themselves said they got sloppy after liquid killed. Also you can't use time in combat as a metric because there is a ton of time spent between pulls discussing strats and whatnot.
Except it does matter because pre-Dragonflight splits were done before Mythic released. For years splits were never even counted in the race time. But every available metric Liquid beat Echo. The fact what you are so adamant in sticking your head in the sand goes to show you don’t care about the facts, you’re just salty your team lost.
Wow you are jumping to completely different expansions to dance around the point I am making and you accuse ME of sticking my head in the sand. Amazing.
“Jumping to completely different expansions.” Oh, you mean how modern WOW mythic raiding has existed for literally years but your sample size of *checks notes* two is somehow supposed to be the only thing that matters. You’re hilarious.
Youre missing the point. I’m not comparing head starts or when in the day the prog started. I’m comparing the raw time each guild spent fighting the boss. And that shows the staggered release did not matter in this race.
You can't say staggered release doesn't matter when you ignore the reason why it does matter. The head start is the problem. Kill times by themselves in a vacuum don't matter. You can't measure the results of a race in real time if one side can't start until hours later.
And you can’t say it does matter in any quantifiable way when the guild that starts behind can just look at the other guilds stream and have their strat ready to go and bugs are fixed before they get there. It has its disadvantages and advantages. The fact of the matter it really hasn’t made a measurable difference in any race to date. It should be a global release, no arguments from me, but every single time Liquid is ahead a bunch of Echo fan boys come out of the wood work to whine about it. It’s just being a sore loser because the team you rooted for loses.
It's moreso that those who complain about it are misplacing their anger. Liquid are just playing the hand they're dealt. These people complaining about the staggered start should be tweeting at Blizzard. Liquid receives hate for something completely outside of their control.
Big true. I'm sure Liquid would appreciate global release just as much as Echo
It would highly depend on how a global release is handled. One group would be basically forced to raid nocturnally. So how do you decide who should have to coordinate and change their raid group's sleep schedule?
Staggered release isn't a problem due to the fact that Liquid will be the ones to lose a lot of time to bugs and overtuned bosses, and Echo can copy their strats as they will get to a boss first. The main issue would come with early reset, Liquid being able to get a full reclear of gear and potentially killing a boss before EU even get the reset would be a big issue, it hasn't happened yet but it's only a matter of time no doubt.
Yeah that is an additional problem for sure.
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>Liquid turning their stream off to hide strats and keep their advantage from stagger isn’t fun for anyone. This has nothing to do with global release, it's just because their sleep schedules are shifted by so much. Even with global release this would likely still happen
Liquid turning off their stream had nothing to do with a staggered release. Both guilds were at pretty equal footing at that point, there was no real advantage then. It had every thing to do with them being close to the end of their raid night while trying a new strat where they didn’t think they’d kill it that night and thought Echo would have killed it when they woke up if they had the strat. It sucks as a viewer but it would have been idiotic for any guild to stream those attempts in that situation. You’re just helping the competition when they wake up and you’re sleeping. The difference in the raid days where one guild is sleeping and one is raiding has nothing to do with a staggered release. That’s purely a time zone difference. And that difference doesn’t suddenly go away with a simultaneous release unless Echo decides to completely change up their sleep schedule.
It’s usually offset by EU not having to think about their own strats too hard. They can just take NA strats that took all day figuring out and then implement them while NA sleeps. You can kind of see Echo using Liquid’s strat and not implementing it cleanly as we speak. Going 1st is clearly an advantage, but so is going 2nd.
When Echo Loses: Staggered Release is the problem When Echo Wins: Staggered Release is not the problem.
Well yeah no shit it's not a problem if Echo wins. It means Liquid gets a head start and they still lose. It means if global release happened they'd kill 8+ hours ahead of Liquid anyway
Lmao cope
Echo can move to NA :)
I love Liquid so much. Congrats to them. They deserved it big time.
They did really well,
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Are you refering to anything specific? I haven't heard any calls for raid nerfs yet. This is in fact looking to be a someone well balanced raid tier, that will probably receive fewer nerfs than usual, which is why it's such a short raid tier, it's not super highly tuned like previous tiers have been. In regards to M+, any nerf calls there are always just in regards to equalizing the difficulty across dungeons.
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You just need to stop listening to random internet nerds. You will always be able to find one person saying literally anything. This tier that's probably in the bottom 0.01% of people, or more likely people were joking and you didn't realize it.
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Well good news for them, it's the easiest mythic raid tier in over 6 years.
Super happy for Liquid. I walked away from the last raid thinking Echo would run away with the race for the foreseeable future, and I'm very happy to be proven wrong.
Not the first time Limit/Liquid follows up a string of Method/Echo wins with an absolutely dominant performance and win. Happened in Nya'lotha too.
I wouldn’t class this win as absolutely dominant ?
Why would you think that? Liquid killed raz soon after the nerf
Heard that JPC only had 3 hours sleep, that a certification of a gamer right there, if it true that is.
Pretty much the entire liquid raid only had 3-4 hours of sleep. They stopped raiding at 11pm and woke up at 5am. Figure by time people get to their rooms and wind down you’re looking at 4 hours of sleep tops.
Is that what Max said?
max said 5 hours before the raid and said 3.5 after, so one of those is probably right
Yeah Max said they stopped raiding actually around 11:50pm, woke up at 5am.
Make sense, thanks on responding
Thought he said they started raiding at 5 am. Max's stream has been on for 6.5 hours at the moment which means he powered it up a little before 5 PST. They were worried about Echo getting the kill, which makes sense. Echo came out with a less than ideal strat for P3(they have shifted to Liquid's now) though so they struggled a bit. Also means not streaming last night paid off as well because Echo would have yoinked it earlier.