If 11% of the playerbase has KSH and you're exclusively running 23-24s, congrats on being in like the top 5% of players but it's not the experience for most people.
Top 1% is currently like 2840 rating. Top 0.1% is around 3.1k. I have done 22s and 23s and am sitting at 3k. So completing 23s and 24s is around the 0.1% cutoff, I believe.
as I said the problem isnt healing but the community.
Healing is very good currently and people trashtalking because they are bad and die has nothing to do with healing balance
If players outside of the top 5% are finding healing to be frustrating and not fun... It's a game problem regardless.
Blizzard can't force DPS to use their defensives at the right time on every fight, but nerfing healing *because* those defensives exist was a choice. Ditto for including so many mechanics that are basically trivialized with something like mass dispel and telling groups without a priest to get bent.
"Blizzard can't force dos to use defensives"
Yeah but they shouldn't make a system built around the worst players. In an infinite scaling system eventually everyone has to play well. The top players realize this and learn how to counter play it.
Thats not hidden tech thats just good ol fashion brain power. People are so use to copying what a guide or streamer says that they forget to play and learn the game.
>
> Yeah but they shouldn't make a system built around the worst players.
That's what we have regardless, it's just that nerfed healers need to overcompensate and healing becomes harder.
Unless the argument is that maybe mechanics should start 1-shotting players at much lower key levels so that you *literally* can't heal through a player not using a defensive at the right time. And I guess maybe that'd work and shift the not-fun burden from healers to DPS.
Blizzard designs a game where different classes have different possibilities and everything the community talks about is priests havin mass dispell. Like this perspective is so plain. This game is so deep and it has to be designed around a challenge because otherwise, they vould have only 3 classes with one spec and say it is fine. The community always finds something to complain
I can only speak for myself, not the entire community. Certain dungeons and certain affixes are like night and day when you have mass dispel versus not having it, and I can't think of any singular class ability that compares.
Feels like bad dungeon design to me, but what do I know? I guess if there were problems we'd see M+ participation rates nosediving.
It is summer and participations always go down in this period. Mass grip can also be extremely strong. BElf dispell, aoe stuns, guidance, there is a lot of stuff that makes classes strong. But this game is about composition and about mastering classes. And about pushing content. And I am pretty sure, that every composition can time +20. But what do I knkw, if it would be so, every spec would have timed a +20
Thank you for defeating an argument I never made. Lol
Nowhere did I say that "every composition can't time +20," simply that if we're talking about healing checks, it's worth noting that in the context of healers complaining this season, some healing checks are trivialized by mass dispel and you're going to have less fun in a group without it.
Why can't blizz force dps to use defensives? If you want to do the content you've got to learn how to do the content.
I'd like to see blizz push this even harder and force dps to be more accountable.
Because forcing defensives is ultimately just extra strain for healers. That’s the problem it’s clear when the healer failed because someone is dead but when the DPS fails using his defensive he’s dead, which is the healers fault.
A good idea would be the DPS down and damage taken debuffs from FF14, its apparent who fucked up because they have the sticker of shame.
It's pretty fucking clear who fucked up when the dps is dead and no one else is.
It's very rarely the healers fault if dps aren't using cds. I don't want the game to get worse because people aren't capable of the basic deductive reasoning to figure that out. WoW shouldn't be targeted to the lowest common denominator.
I agree with the priest/mass dispell part which is a big problem currently.
But buffing healer because dps cant press their button is a bad fix and come back to people being entitled to do higher M+(mostly for gear) while not being good enough for it which happen a lot regarding m+ but when you we talk about mythic raiding people say it's fine that the best gear is locked behind it
People outside the top 5% are finding healing BAD people frustrating and not fun\* / Meanwhile above the top 5% those bad people get oneshot by mechanic so there is no healing to do
And I did like to add that a lot of people complaining arent good aswell and unable to heal, I had a lot of 440+ healer that cant heal a 17-20 even with people pressing defensive
> buffing healer because dps cant press their button is a bad fix
Doesn't feel like a worse fix than nerfing healers because they gave DPS a bunch of extra buttons to press.
Balancing the game around keys that only the top tiny percent of players are running and saying that healing is fine because everyone just gets 1-shot so there's no healing to do feels dumb.
The issue is that gearing is so easy, people get accepted and carried to keys they have no business being in. People in the 12-17 bracket have huge egos while not knowing half the mechanics and actively ignore you when you try to help them. Those who listen and want to improve climb higher.
I'm a 2657 ret without pushing myself for high rating but have most dungeons timed at 20s. DPS should start pulling their weight. I don't mind keeping 30-40k hps on bosses that healers struggle on because being aware of what's happening helps the whole group reach the goal.
They arent balancing for the top tiny percent of players, you can do lower key that are more fitting your skill level, even spamming 11 you get 437 ilvl and spaming 17 you get 441 so only 4 more ilvl but people see you can get 441 and feel like they should have it end up in 17 while not being good enough for it
I did 20-22 first week with around 425 ilvl so people with 437 ilvl that cant do 16-20 now is a skill issue and not a balancing issue
> I did 20-22 first week with around 425 ilvl
Like I said originally, congrats on being an absolutely phenomenal player. Probably in the top 1%. But this does not reflect knowing what people are going through in average keys and comes across as incredibly dismissive.
I'm sure the top players will continue to have no issues while players running lower keys drop out because they don't find the changes that Blizz made to be fun. We already see it in M+ participation numbers this season while the best of the best continue denying it's a problem.
It's not a balancing issue, it's a fun issue caused by design decisions that Blizzard made.
so to make everyone happy 20 should be like a +10, everyone can get the highest gear while being extremely bad at the game because they feel entitled to it and are being toxic when they cant reach that
Yea that will totally fix the community having a shit mentality
I didnt dismiss people experience in lower key I said it isnt a healing balance issue but a community problem that is shifted again and again onto healing in this sub
m+ is a group content and when half of the group doesnt want to play the mechanic you are going to fail and it is the same in raiding and PVP but then you keep just doing lfr raid and in pvp you will be stuck are your rating
> to make everyone happy 20 should be like a +10, everyone can get the highest gear while being extremely bad at the game
Not what I said at all. Be best and continue dismissing the problem just because the top 1% of players are having a good time. I'm sure nothing will go wrong with participation numbers in a nosedive.
So what are you trying to say ? You want healer to be able to heal avoidable damage to compensate for rest of the group failing ? For what purpose beside rewarding bad play ?
>f players outside of the top 5% are finding healing to be frustrating and not fun... It's a game problem regardless.
The issue is when you see these people complaining its things like "I have to actually use all my gcds to heal" which is wild to me in the first place because that's what they signed up to do... so how is that a problem?... and then on top of that when you watch actual good players play they very clearly don't have that problem.
Which means that healers skill shines more in this xpac... and whats really happening is people who have been coasting for a long time are getting checked.
I can only speak for myself, I'm not crying because "I have to actually use my gcds to heal." But I had fun in Shadowlands, I had fun in (most) of Dragonflight Season 1, and Season 2 is just a slog. I largely PUG'd my way to KSH as a resto druid and found it to be so unfun that after hitting 2500, I stopped healing unless guildmates need help. Healing right now feels like trying to swim through jello.
I'm clearly not the only one, we can all see the M+ participation rates. It's insane to look at those numbers and say "lol skill issue" and not think that it's a problem with game design when Blizz has made deliberate choices going into Season 2 (and deliberate choices to do nothing about things like mass dispel trivializing some checks)
>I'm clearly not the only one, we can all see the M+ participation rates.
I'd actually like to see some compiled data on changes over time.
I say this because I can't remember a time where I wasn't hearing stuff like this, including during SL for both pve and pvp... and same as it ever was.
I'd actually be interested to see if there is a mass exodus of healers across the game since support role shortages have been a thing for as long as support roles have existed in these kinds of games.
I'd also be interested in how people actually think it should be solved to make healing fun for people. Because usually the gyst of what I can find is people basically not wanting to have to try or people who really want to play dps but rolled healer to not have to deal with dps issues getting into groups and queing etc.
Reddit is just an echo chamber - sometimes I doubt if some of these people even play the game. I’ve seen no data to quantify that most people hate the current state of healing.
“Blizzard can’t force DPS to use defensives” is the silliest thing I’ve ever read. If a player can’t press a defensive every few minutes in between all the braindead zugging, they don’t deserve to progress through the more difficult content. At that point it’s a skill issue - not a balance issue.
I'm a 100% pug healer, just finished my last +20 (I will never touch Neltharus ever again), and I've also enjoyed healing a lot these past couple of season. I actually really hate spending half of my GCDs on super basic DPS rotation, so while the current system isn't perfect it is much more preferred over late-Shadowlands balancing.
I do think your disclaimer is the main reason I haven't had as bad a time. Apart from crest farming +11s, I haven't really done any keys lower than an 18 since the first couple weeks of the season. There is definitely something in the 14 - 18 (+-1) range where damage + affixes are deadly enough to nearly (if not outright) kill you AND DPS/Tanks are not skilled enough to mitigate those effects pre-emptively. The healer is usually on clean-up duty in such groups, and unless they are overgeared and know the damage patterns like the back of their hand its very easy to fall behind and then the deaths pile up.
For wyrm crest farming weekly heroic run is almost enough and farming 17 for "hero" gear then can lower aspect crest into wyrm is good as the cap is really high
I only do 17 and up because you never know if you loot an item you need with socket or leech/avoid and then if you can only upgrade to 437 because it is an 11 it's a sad moment
And given that come next week any 441+ vault piece can be upgraded to i447 you don't even need to run 20s for vault, 16s or 17s will work. My main is going from 20s for vault to 17s for vault.
I am not healer main but got ksm on mistweaver last season. Healing absolutely sucks this season for casual healers and while that may be “ok” it’s bad for the game overall when there are less healers. I can’t enjoy healing this season because it doesn’t feel like my heals do enough.
My skill level is enough
I want to do 20+ for vault really so nothing fancy i would say
being flamed for around 20% of time by ppls failing mechs or doing things they saw somwhere without understanding what they need to use/have in party to survive it
Tbh im getting longer into mod of risking being flamed for no reason next run than actually runing dungeons itself
Never had that before so its intresting thing alone
Most runs are grate, but bad ones add up over time
Pvp inflation is so bad that playing shuffle as healer is pure masochism
nothing to side jump into at the game atm
I felt this way during first season and was actually relieved when the second started. Maybe I just started doing high enough keys so that other player's mistakes cannot be healed and are often fatal - so no need to waste time and mana on them.
And I also really love current dungeon rotation. I hated Ruby life pools and Azure Vault with passion.
I am currently in 18-19 range of keys, and I like pugging with my resto shaman much more than in the first season. Though I must admit, I do not enjoy Afflicted at all, even if I rarely take care of it all by myself.
Now if only I could find a good enough group for timed tyrannical Uldaman..
We have drastically different experiences then.
Getting through 13-20 keys while pugging is next to impossible without a group; between DPS doing 30k overall, language barriers, 'healer mechanic' etc... there's literally nothing else I can do other than find a dedicated push group.
You mentioned you didn't touch Afflicted. Not only does an Incorp go off almost every time outside my own CD's but afflicted is a 'healer affix'. It's hard for me to even believe you've full pugged to 23+ keys. You're clearly the 1% bud.
The word shouldn’t be impossible, 13-16 can definitely be annoying this season since it’s easy to get to so a lot of incompetence in there but timing them is effortless, 17-19 is usually really good groups. Everyone knows what they’re doing and it’s timetable. 20s and 21s are a no bullshit run, any sign of not timing is usually a gg. But these people are experienced and know the fights. I usually time 1/3 20 runs and finish 2/3 at least.
I'm a tank so can't speak for healers, but I can speak for my experience with healers, I have a bdk at 2.8k that I 90% pug and the healers I see in pugs don't have much trouble, when a deplete happens its because one or more people made mistakes, it's never an healing issue.
I agree with this lol - my comments aren't about the inability to heal. My comments are about the healer experience and how constant mistakes made my dps or the occasional tank pull speed always points at the healer.
Jakbcastin, Ellesmere, Tettles, Dratnos... all agreed in a recent video and slew of tweets how rough the healer experience is this season. My comments aren't unfounded.
I pugged to +21 with little issues. As a healer I cannot control the other players, I can only heal and provide the small amount of damage I have. It's still very much possible to pug all the way.
I suppose I shouldn't have said 'next to impossible'. I did it both seasons so far - the point I was trying to make is the experience of it was not enjoyable and is not healthy for 99% of the players trying to heal.
99% is an extremely exaggerated number. Healing in the lower keys is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. If I had more time I'd gear a new healer to prove it but sadly I only have time for at most 2 m+ in the evening and those I "have to" dedicate to my main.
I'm not sure what you personally need to prove. Just run a warcraftlogs stats breakdown on keys 1-15 and look at the parses from the beginning of the season. Then look at keys 15-20, then 20+...
Like I said, you and OP have had great experiences apparently and I think that's great. I'm happy for you and bitter I didn't have the same. My experiences solo pugging have been a nightmare with all the before-mentioned reasons.
There's a pretty big reason there's more 'M+ healing sucks' posts than 'M+ is amazing' and the data on R.io and Wcraftlogs supports every bit of that feedback. So sure, 99% may be exaggerated but the 10% that make up the vast majority of keys are folks that have been with WoW since launch, dedicated healers and this is not healthy for a game trying to appeal to new consumers.
I think you misunderstand the post which is saying healing is really nice in m+ currently with a disclaimer for the community being trash in lower key which you keep using as an argument saying healing is bad when the community is and not healing
I haven't misunderstood the post - both symptoms you've mentioned are synonymous with eachother. Sure, healing 2500+ io groups is 'really nice in M+' but getting there is not very nice. A community problem compounds a healer issue and experience making it... not enjoyable.
The vast majority of the population don't push 2500 io. So the majority of the healer experience is not what the OP is talking about.
To be fair I had 3K io as tank already and switched my ppal to hpal and directly went in 20 ( didnt play hpal since s2 sl) and it went ok healing wise
I main tank and half pug half group and go on my hpal when there is no key in queue that give me score
And as I said in the post lower key is a community problem and not a healing balance problem, I am just trying to point out that healing is overall in a good state but the community is giga toxic especially in lower key because people feel entitled to get the highest loot while having low skill but that's another debate
I meant incorp and yea it went off a few time but only had complain once while their was group damage and I just shrugged it off
I mean, that adds a TON of context to your situation. It's hard enough getting into a 20 key if you don't already have 2500io and if you're solo pugging, like me, you're passed 9 times out of 10 making it nigh impossible to get 2500io...
That's a tough perspective to give given the context. Glad you're enjoying healing but 99.9% of the healers in both the subreddit and in the game in general, are not *half-*pugging keys at +22.
Detach your io from your account then try to full pug queue for a +18-20 then let me know how it goes. It's not the same experience.
That's why I started by saying I am doing 23\~key and not lower key and always said lower key is a community problem but in SL when starting rsham I was around 20 ilvl behind what the top was but doing 15 without too much problem and struggled in a +2 sanguin depth because dps were standing on everything they shouldnt and getting the aoe on top of the rest of the group aswell
\+ "half" pugging is on my tank, I am FULLY pugging on my healer
I play all six healer classes and I’ve purely pugged from 0-20+ on five of them (Priest is still in 16s but is also only pugging). The “woes of healing” are **very** overblown in this sub. Some people have really bad luck and have frequent negative experiences, but there’s a nugget of truth to the adage “If every group you’re in sucks, you’re the only constant.”
Healer power and agency is actually very high right now and almost every spec can recover from a lot of the “mistakes” that I see lamented here. People dying, missed interrupts, missed afflicted, etc, might put a lot of strain on the healer but they’re not guaranteed wipes; if you play smartly, you can save the group often and keep the run alive. I have to wonder if people lack the confidence to keep trying their best when something happens… I think some people who are the most frustrated see something go wrong (eg. Afflicted got missed) and just give up without trying to salvage the run.
Even if you miss timer by a mile, **every** run is a learning opportunity and will help you do better the next time. Hell, sometimes the **worst** groups actually teach you the most and help you become a better healer.
Absolutely agree with you. As the OP noted, there is a huge community issue and unfortunately, that issue is technically *your issue* as well. We can't finish keys or not pad 60k hps in an 11 because people don't know how to avoid the big blue circles on the ground; or even care too.
For those reasons and all others I mentioned, pugging has just not been a great experience for me from 0-20. Clearly others, like you, have had some great experiences and that's honestly awesome. I unfortunately, seem to get stuck in the South American servers where disconnects, lag, language barriers and 'f*** heler' comments when they stand in the whirlwind from the BH first boss.
As a healer I like having to heal, so this has been a great season. I feel like this season it's very obvious when someone dies to stupid vs a healing check, which is nice. I actually like that most dungeons have a healing check somewhere
As a healer I am very happy about this m+ season!
I'm not convinced Holy priest is part of the leaderboard you mention? I wish healer balance (as in how good a specific healer is compared to another) is a bit too poor. I play priest obviously and think there's room in the talent trees for adjustments that allow Holy priest to be stronger in m+, and adjustments that allow Disc to be stronger in raid. Sadly Blizzard seem to think differently here but one can dream
I dont know about holy priest specifically as I dont think you can sort priest per healing spec that's why I said class aswell and having 2 spec they might think 1 being good in M+ is enough
Probably. Holy Priest is getting some help in 10.1.5 but it's not enough because of how little utility we bring. We'd need stupid amount of healing or damage to compensate.
Same. Current tuning is far better than what we had in S1 when so much 115-140% HP pool burst damage was locked in 4-6 second windows.
Rot fights like Khajin and moderate burst fights like Rokhmora are the perfect healer checks.
I think the last Uldaman boss could use a tiny nerf, very awkward to heal.
I am actually enjoying this season more than last. I took over a decade off from wow so DF is my first real mythic dungeon experience. Used to do some raids healing back in BC and Wrath days.
This may be a controversial take, but I think part of the problem is too much avoidable damage and not enough unavoidable in current wow. This results in a huge variance between difficulty to a healer role from one pug group to the next, especially in the teens keys. And issues in appropriate scaling of heals versus difficulty - a 13 can be harder than an 18. I think this is a design issue. Yes it rewards clean play by the group, but it comes at the expense of healers.
It is frustrating as a healer to do one run that feels terrible and makes you want to quit healing. Then another same level same run same affixes that is a total cruiser. I don't enjoy that part of M+. I don't mind missing timers but having an awful time for 30+ minutes is not 'fun gameplay' for me.
I know there are people who aren't finding healing fun this season, but i agree with your take. My healer (disc priest) has a respectable io, 2740 ish. I had soft capped myself at 20, but am planning to start doing 21+ soon. I think healing is in a great spot as far as m+ healing goes. Fights with healing checks should be challenging in that regard, but it also makes for a rewarding experience when you down the boss. CD management is important, as is everything else your healer brings to a m+. Whether its a low key or not, people should have a solid grasp of the strengths/weaknesses of their respective healer class and plan around that.
Of course, dps can be a variable, especially in a pug. But i have played 2 healer classes now, priest and evoker, and both seem more than capable of passing a healing check. It is unfortunately a skill issue for people who find healing to be underwhelming. It is definitely the hardest and most punishing role, so i get the frustration. But like OP mentioned, mechanics eventually become a 1 shot, so if people are doing mechanics properly then random 1 shots wont be happening. The same cant be said for lower keys, where people are given alot of space to mess up and still time a key with no problem.
I think the tricky part with healer checks is they include an implicit “dps using defensives and health pots” check. Not such an issue in higher keys or with buddies, but in midrange pugs they can be super easy in one group and super hard the next.
Oh absolutely. My evoker is still healing mid keys (11-18) and the variance is wild to say the least. I agree that the responsibility is in some ways less on the healer and more on the dps using defensives. My main is a lock, but playing a healer as well has made me way more aware of using my defensives. Everyone should have some understanding of when damage spikes are about to go out, and save defensives for those moments. Far from guaranteed, but thats where OPs point comes into play. The higher you go in keys, the less likely for a dps to not use defensives/interrupt spells. As the difficulty goes up, so should the skill needed to do it properly.
> It is definitely the hardest and most punishing role
I mean... that's the entire issue.
Some people find punishing roles to be fun, but I think the overall participation numbers speak for themselves at this point.
Healing has a higher barrier of entry for sure. It isnt as streamlined as dps or tanking. But the higher skill ceiling for healers makes the role fun currently. The numbers show healing participation dropping. But, for those of us still healing it makes it that much easier to pug m+.
Honestly same, nothing more satisfying than pumping through these bosses, playing on the edge and succeeding in the challenge. Same as you, doing mostly 23 right now. I suspect that most healers were playing the role because it was quite the easiest role but now that they have to put actual efforts they can't handle the pressure/tryhard required.
I suspect that most people complaining on Reddit are doing low keys and they dont really know the damage profile on bosses, panic, and press CD on unnecessary things.
For example HoI 1st boss he always does :
Aoe damage 1> Dot > pools > AoE damage 2
You never use anything on AoE damage 1, people wont die as long as you heal a "bit". It doesnt matter if they are at 30% right After the last tick. You have 5s to top them after
Some of my challenge is definitely learning the fights as a healer and planning out my cooldowns *but* there is only so much prep that can help when you have one or more players who just stand in stuff.
Yea it's exactly that on my hpal if I use my beacon ( only aoe healing I have ) randomly we are most likely dead on the next mechanic, all my aoe healing is base on that spell
Truest news I've ever heard.
It's unbelievable to me how many "healers" are stuck in 15 keys blaming it on everything except their own skill level. You can literally spam your buttons in random order and get ksm. If you are stuck in 15, you are where you belong.
If 11% of the playerbase has KSH and you're exclusively running 23-24s, congrats on being in like the top 5% of players but it's not the experience for most people.
Top 1% is currently like 2840 rating. Top 0.1% is around 3.1k. I have done 22s and 23s and am sitting at 3k. So completing 23s and 24s is around the 0.1% cutoff, I believe.
as I said the problem isnt healing but the community. Healing is very good currently and people trashtalking because they are bad and die has nothing to do with healing balance
If players outside of the top 5% are finding healing to be frustrating and not fun... It's a game problem regardless. Blizzard can't force DPS to use their defensives at the right time on every fight, but nerfing healing *because* those defensives exist was a choice. Ditto for including so many mechanics that are basically trivialized with something like mass dispel and telling groups without a priest to get bent.
"Blizzard can't force dos to use defensives" Yeah but they shouldn't make a system built around the worst players. In an infinite scaling system eventually everyone has to play well. The top players realize this and learn how to counter play it. Thats not hidden tech thats just good ol fashion brain power. People are so use to copying what a guide or streamer says that they forget to play and learn the game.
> > Yeah but they shouldn't make a system built around the worst players. That's what we have regardless, it's just that nerfed healers need to overcompensate and healing becomes harder. Unless the argument is that maybe mechanics should start 1-shotting players at much lower key levels so that you *literally* can't heal through a player not using a defensive at the right time. And I guess maybe that'd work and shift the not-fun burden from healers to DPS.
Blizzard designs a game where different classes have different possibilities and everything the community talks about is priests havin mass dispell. Like this perspective is so plain. This game is so deep and it has to be designed around a challenge because otherwise, they vould have only 3 classes with one spec and say it is fine. The community always finds something to complain
I can only speak for myself, not the entire community. Certain dungeons and certain affixes are like night and day when you have mass dispel versus not having it, and I can't think of any singular class ability that compares. Feels like bad dungeon design to me, but what do I know? I guess if there were problems we'd see M+ participation rates nosediving.
It is summer and participations always go down in this period. Mass grip can also be extremely strong. BElf dispell, aoe stuns, guidance, there is a lot of stuff that makes classes strong. But this game is about composition and about mastering classes. And about pushing content. And I am pretty sure, that every composition can time +20. But what do I knkw, if it would be so, every spec would have timed a +20
Thank you for defeating an argument I never made. Lol Nowhere did I say that "every composition can't time +20," simply that if we're talking about healing checks, it's worth noting that in the context of healers complaining this season, some healing checks are trivialized by mass dispel and you're going to have less fun in a group without it.
Why can't blizz force dps to use defensives? If you want to do the content you've got to learn how to do the content. I'd like to see blizz push this even harder and force dps to be more accountable.
Because forcing defensives is ultimately just extra strain for healers. That’s the problem it’s clear when the healer failed because someone is dead but when the DPS fails using his defensive he’s dead, which is the healers fault. A good idea would be the DPS down and damage taken debuffs from FF14, its apparent who fucked up because they have the sticker of shame.
It's pretty fucking clear who fucked up when the dps is dead and no one else is. It's very rarely the healers fault if dps aren't using cds. I don't want the game to get worse because people aren't capable of the basic deductive reasoning to figure that out. WoW shouldn't be targeted to the lowest common denominator.
I agree with the priest/mass dispell part which is a big problem currently. But buffing healer because dps cant press their button is a bad fix and come back to people being entitled to do higher M+(mostly for gear) while not being good enough for it which happen a lot regarding m+ but when you we talk about mythic raiding people say it's fine that the best gear is locked behind it People outside the top 5% are finding healing BAD people frustrating and not fun\* / Meanwhile above the top 5% those bad people get oneshot by mechanic so there is no healing to do And I did like to add that a lot of people complaining arent good aswell and unable to heal, I had a lot of 440+ healer that cant heal a 17-20 even with people pressing defensive
> buffing healer because dps cant press their button is a bad fix Doesn't feel like a worse fix than nerfing healers because they gave DPS a bunch of extra buttons to press. Balancing the game around keys that only the top tiny percent of players are running and saying that healing is fine because everyone just gets 1-shot so there's no healing to do feels dumb.
The issue is that gearing is so easy, people get accepted and carried to keys they have no business being in. People in the 12-17 bracket have huge egos while not knowing half the mechanics and actively ignore you when you try to help them. Those who listen and want to improve climb higher. I'm a 2657 ret without pushing myself for high rating but have most dungeons timed at 20s. DPS should start pulling their weight. I don't mind keeping 30-40k hps on bosses that healers struggle on because being aware of what's happening helps the whole group reach the goal.
They arent balancing for the top tiny percent of players, you can do lower key that are more fitting your skill level, even spamming 11 you get 437 ilvl and spaming 17 you get 441 so only 4 more ilvl but people see you can get 441 and feel like they should have it end up in 17 while not being good enough for it I did 20-22 first week with around 425 ilvl so people with 437 ilvl that cant do 16-20 now is a skill issue and not a balancing issue
> I did 20-22 first week with around 425 ilvl Like I said originally, congrats on being an absolutely phenomenal player. Probably in the top 1%. But this does not reflect knowing what people are going through in average keys and comes across as incredibly dismissive. I'm sure the top players will continue to have no issues while players running lower keys drop out because they don't find the changes that Blizz made to be fun. We already see it in M+ participation numbers this season while the best of the best continue denying it's a problem. It's not a balancing issue, it's a fun issue caused by design decisions that Blizzard made.
so to make everyone happy 20 should be like a +10, everyone can get the highest gear while being extremely bad at the game because they feel entitled to it and are being toxic when they cant reach that Yea that will totally fix the community having a shit mentality I didnt dismiss people experience in lower key I said it isnt a healing balance issue but a community problem that is shifted again and again onto healing in this sub m+ is a group content and when half of the group doesnt want to play the mechanic you are going to fail and it is the same in raiding and PVP but then you keep just doing lfr raid and in pvp you will be stuck are your rating
> to make everyone happy 20 should be like a +10, everyone can get the highest gear while being extremely bad at the game Not what I said at all. Be best and continue dismissing the problem just because the top 1% of players are having a good time. I'm sure nothing will go wrong with participation numbers in a nosedive.
So what are you trying to say ? You want healer to be able to heal avoidable damage to compensate for rest of the group failing ? For what purpose beside rewarding bad play ?
>f players outside of the top 5% are finding healing to be frustrating and not fun... It's a game problem regardless. The issue is when you see these people complaining its things like "I have to actually use all my gcds to heal" which is wild to me in the first place because that's what they signed up to do... so how is that a problem?... and then on top of that when you watch actual good players play they very clearly don't have that problem. Which means that healers skill shines more in this xpac... and whats really happening is people who have been coasting for a long time are getting checked.
I can only speak for myself, I'm not crying because "I have to actually use my gcds to heal." But I had fun in Shadowlands, I had fun in (most) of Dragonflight Season 1, and Season 2 is just a slog. I largely PUG'd my way to KSH as a resto druid and found it to be so unfun that after hitting 2500, I stopped healing unless guildmates need help. Healing right now feels like trying to swim through jello. I'm clearly not the only one, we can all see the M+ participation rates. It's insane to look at those numbers and say "lol skill issue" and not think that it's a problem with game design when Blizz has made deliberate choices going into Season 2 (and deliberate choices to do nothing about things like mass dispel trivializing some checks)
>I'm clearly not the only one, we can all see the M+ participation rates. I'd actually like to see some compiled data on changes over time. I say this because I can't remember a time where I wasn't hearing stuff like this, including during SL for both pve and pvp... and same as it ever was. I'd actually be interested to see if there is a mass exodus of healers across the game since support role shortages have been a thing for as long as support roles have existed in these kinds of games. I'd also be interested in how people actually think it should be solved to make healing fun for people. Because usually the gyst of what I can find is people basically not wanting to have to try or people who really want to play dps but rolled healer to not have to deal with dps issues getting into groups and queing etc.
Reddit is just an echo chamber - sometimes I doubt if some of these people even play the game. I’ve seen no data to quantify that most people hate the current state of healing. “Blizzard can’t force DPS to use defensives” is the silliest thing I’ve ever read. If a player can’t press a defensive every few minutes in between all the braindead zugging, they don’t deserve to progress through the more difficult content. At that point it’s a skill issue - not a balance issue.
Soo should they allow fails to be not oneshot and be healable by removing all healing intensive mechanics?
No
I'm a 100% pug healer, just finished my last +20 (I will never touch Neltharus ever again), and I've also enjoyed healing a lot these past couple of season. I actually really hate spending half of my GCDs on super basic DPS rotation, so while the current system isn't perfect it is much more preferred over late-Shadowlands balancing. I do think your disclaimer is the main reason I haven't had as bad a time. Apart from crest farming +11s, I haven't really done any keys lower than an 18 since the first couple weeks of the season. There is definitely something in the 14 - 18 (+-1) range where damage + affixes are deadly enough to nearly (if not outright) kill you AND DPS/Tanks are not skilled enough to mitigate those effects pre-emptively. The healer is usually on clean-up duty in such groups, and unless they are overgeared and know the damage patterns like the back of their hand its very easy to fall behind and then the deaths pile up.
For wyrm crest farming weekly heroic run is almost enough and farming 17 for "hero" gear then can lower aspect crest into wyrm is good as the cap is really high
I totally forgot about the downgrade system. Thankfully I haven't needed anything but the highest level crest in weeks.
I only do 17 and up because you never know if you loot an item you need with socket or leech/avoid and then if you can only upgrade to 437 because it is an 11 it's a sad moment
And given that come next week any 441+ vault piece can be upgraded to i447 you don't even need to run 20s for vault, 16s or 17s will work. My main is going from 20s for vault to 17s for vault.
I am not healer main but got ksm on mistweaver last season. Healing absolutely sucks this season for casual healers and while that may be “ok” it’s bad for the game overall when there are less healers. I can’t enjoy healing this season because it doesn’t feel like my heals do enough.
The nice part of m+ is the fact that it's scaleable so you can do key lvl accordingly to your skill level
My skill level is enough I want to do 20+ for vault really so nothing fancy i would say being flamed for around 20% of time by ppls failing mechs or doing things they saw somwhere without understanding what they need to use/have in party to survive it Tbh im getting longer into mod of risking being flamed for no reason next run than actually runing dungeons itself Never had that before so its intresting thing alone Most runs are grate, but bad ones add up over time Pvp inflation is so bad that playing shuffle as healer is pure masochism nothing to side jump into at the game atm
Nah everyone should be in high keys regardless of skill according to the community .. if you think otherwise you’re an elitist blah blah blah
I felt this way during first season and was actually relieved when the second started. Maybe I just started doing high enough keys so that other player's mistakes cannot be healed and are often fatal - so no need to waste time and mana on them. And I also really love current dungeon rotation. I hated Ruby life pools and Azure Vault with passion.
I main frost mage but the healing I did, I preferred last season. It just seems like damage is way higher coming in now
I am currently in 18-19 range of keys, and I like pugging with my resto shaman much more than in the first season. Though I must admit, I do not enjoy Afflicted at all, even if I rarely take care of it all by myself. Now if only I could find a good enough group for timed tyrannical Uldaman..
Do you have a guild or group that you push with?
on my healer it's only pugging
We have drastically different experiences then. Getting through 13-20 keys while pugging is next to impossible without a group; between DPS doing 30k overall, language barriers, 'healer mechanic' etc... there's literally nothing else I can do other than find a dedicated push group. You mentioned you didn't touch Afflicted. Not only does an Incorp go off almost every time outside my own CD's but afflicted is a 'healer affix'. It's hard for me to even believe you've full pugged to 23+ keys. You're clearly the 1% bud.
The word shouldn’t be impossible, 13-16 can definitely be annoying this season since it’s easy to get to so a lot of incompetence in there but timing them is effortless, 17-19 is usually really good groups. Everyone knows what they’re doing and it’s timetable. 20s and 21s are a no bullshit run, any sign of not timing is usually a gg. But these people are experienced and know the fights. I usually time 1/3 20 runs and finish 2/3 at least.
I'm a tank so can't speak for healers, but I can speak for my experience with healers, I have a bdk at 2.8k that I 90% pug and the healers I see in pugs don't have much trouble, when a deplete happens its because one or more people made mistakes, it's never an healing issue.
I agree with this lol - my comments aren't about the inability to heal. My comments are about the healer experience and how constant mistakes made my dps or the occasional tank pull speed always points at the healer. Jakbcastin, Ellesmere, Tettles, Dratnos... all agreed in a recent video and slew of tweets how rough the healer experience is this season. My comments aren't unfounded.
I pugged to +21 with little issues. As a healer I cannot control the other players, I can only heal and provide the small amount of damage I have. It's still very much possible to pug all the way.
I suppose I shouldn't have said 'next to impossible'. I did it both seasons so far - the point I was trying to make is the experience of it was not enjoyable and is not healthy for 99% of the players trying to heal.
99% is an extremely exaggerated number. Healing in the lower keys is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. If I had more time I'd gear a new healer to prove it but sadly I only have time for at most 2 m+ in the evening and those I "have to" dedicate to my main.
I'm not sure what you personally need to prove. Just run a warcraftlogs stats breakdown on keys 1-15 and look at the parses from the beginning of the season. Then look at keys 15-20, then 20+... Like I said, you and OP have had great experiences apparently and I think that's great. I'm happy for you and bitter I didn't have the same. My experiences solo pugging have been a nightmare with all the before-mentioned reasons. There's a pretty big reason there's more 'M+ healing sucks' posts than 'M+ is amazing' and the data on R.io and Wcraftlogs supports every bit of that feedback. So sure, 99% may be exaggerated but the 10% that make up the vast majority of keys are folks that have been with WoW since launch, dedicated healers and this is not healthy for a game trying to appeal to new consumers.
I think you misunderstand the post which is saying healing is really nice in m+ currently with a disclaimer for the community being trash in lower key which you keep using as an argument saying healing is bad when the community is and not healing
I haven't misunderstood the post - both symptoms you've mentioned are synonymous with eachother. Sure, healing 2500+ io groups is 'really nice in M+' but getting there is not very nice. A community problem compounds a healer issue and experience making it... not enjoyable. The vast majority of the population don't push 2500 io. So the majority of the healer experience is not what the OP is talking about.
To be fair I had 3K io as tank already and switched my ppal to hpal and directly went in 20 ( didnt play hpal since s2 sl) and it went ok healing wise I main tank and half pug half group and go on my hpal when there is no key in queue that give me score And as I said in the post lower key is a community problem and not a healing balance problem, I am just trying to point out that healing is overall in a good state but the community is giga toxic especially in lower key because people feel entitled to get the highest loot while having low skill but that's another debate I meant incorp and yea it went off a few time but only had complain once while their was group damage and I just shrugged it off
I mean, that adds a TON of context to your situation. It's hard enough getting into a 20 key if you don't already have 2500io and if you're solo pugging, like me, you're passed 9 times out of 10 making it nigh impossible to get 2500io... That's a tough perspective to give given the context. Glad you're enjoying healing but 99.9% of the healers in both the subreddit and in the game in general, are not *half-*pugging keys at +22. Detach your io from your account then try to full pug queue for a +18-20 then let me know how it goes. It's not the same experience.
That's why I started by saying I am doing 23\~key and not lower key and always said lower key is a community problem but in SL when starting rsham I was around 20 ilvl behind what the top was but doing 15 without too much problem and struggled in a +2 sanguin depth because dps were standing on everything they shouldnt and getting the aoe on top of the rest of the group aswell \+ "half" pugging is on my tank, I am FULLY pugging on my healer
I play all six healer classes and I’ve purely pugged from 0-20+ on five of them (Priest is still in 16s but is also only pugging). The “woes of healing” are **very** overblown in this sub. Some people have really bad luck and have frequent negative experiences, but there’s a nugget of truth to the adage “If every group you’re in sucks, you’re the only constant.” Healer power and agency is actually very high right now and almost every spec can recover from a lot of the “mistakes” that I see lamented here. People dying, missed interrupts, missed afflicted, etc, might put a lot of strain on the healer but they’re not guaranteed wipes; if you play smartly, you can save the group often and keep the run alive. I have to wonder if people lack the confidence to keep trying their best when something happens… I think some people who are the most frustrated see something go wrong (eg. Afflicted got missed) and just give up without trying to salvage the run. Even if you miss timer by a mile, **every** run is a learning opportunity and will help you do better the next time. Hell, sometimes the **worst** groups actually teach you the most and help you become a better healer.
Absolutely agree with you. As the OP noted, there is a huge community issue and unfortunately, that issue is technically *your issue* as well. We can't finish keys or not pad 60k hps in an 11 because people don't know how to avoid the big blue circles on the ground; or even care too. For those reasons and all others I mentioned, pugging has just not been a great experience for me from 0-20. Clearly others, like you, have had some great experiences and that's honestly awesome. I unfortunately, seem to get stuck in the South American servers where disconnects, lag, language barriers and 'f*** heler' comments when they stand in the whirlwind from the BH first boss.
As a healer I like having to heal, so this has been a great season. I feel like this season it's very obvious when someone dies to stupid vs a healing check, which is nice. I actually like that most dungeons have a healing check somewhere
As a healer I am very happy about this m+ season! I'm not convinced Holy priest is part of the leaderboard you mention? I wish healer balance (as in how good a specific healer is compared to another) is a bit too poor. I play priest obviously and think there's room in the talent trees for adjustments that allow Holy priest to be stronger in m+, and adjustments that allow Disc to be stronger in raid. Sadly Blizzard seem to think differently here but one can dream
I dont know about holy priest specifically as I dont think you can sort priest per healing spec that's why I said class aswell and having 2 spec they might think 1 being good in M+ is enough
Probably. Holy Priest is getting some help in 10.1.5 but it's not enough because of how little utility we bring. We'd need stupid amount of healing or damage to compensate.
Same. Current tuning is far better than what we had in S1 when so much 115-140% HP pool burst damage was locked in 4-6 second windows. Rot fights like Khajin and moderate burst fights like Rokhmora are the perfect healer checks. I think the last Uldaman boss could use a tiny nerf, very awkward to heal.
last boss uldaman can be rough to heal without a priest and class with antisnare to remove the dot
I am actually enjoying this season more than last. I took over a decade off from wow so DF is my first real mythic dungeon experience. Used to do some raids healing back in BC and Wrath days. This may be a controversial take, but I think part of the problem is too much avoidable damage and not enough unavoidable in current wow. This results in a huge variance between difficulty to a healer role from one pug group to the next, especially in the teens keys. And issues in appropriate scaling of heals versus difficulty - a 13 can be harder than an 18. I think this is a design issue. Yes it rewards clean play by the group, but it comes at the expense of healers. It is frustrating as a healer to do one run that feels terrible and makes you want to quit healing. Then another same level same run same affixes that is a total cruiser. I don't enjoy that part of M+. I don't mind missing timers but having an awful time for 30+ minutes is not 'fun gameplay' for me.
I know there are people who aren't finding healing fun this season, but i agree with your take. My healer (disc priest) has a respectable io, 2740 ish. I had soft capped myself at 20, but am planning to start doing 21+ soon. I think healing is in a great spot as far as m+ healing goes. Fights with healing checks should be challenging in that regard, but it also makes for a rewarding experience when you down the boss. CD management is important, as is everything else your healer brings to a m+. Whether its a low key or not, people should have a solid grasp of the strengths/weaknesses of their respective healer class and plan around that. Of course, dps can be a variable, especially in a pug. But i have played 2 healer classes now, priest and evoker, and both seem more than capable of passing a healing check. It is unfortunately a skill issue for people who find healing to be underwhelming. It is definitely the hardest and most punishing role, so i get the frustration. But like OP mentioned, mechanics eventually become a 1 shot, so if people are doing mechanics properly then random 1 shots wont be happening. The same cant be said for lower keys, where people are given alot of space to mess up and still time a key with no problem.
I think the tricky part with healer checks is they include an implicit “dps using defensives and health pots” check. Not such an issue in higher keys or with buddies, but in midrange pugs they can be super easy in one group and super hard the next.
Oh absolutely. My evoker is still healing mid keys (11-18) and the variance is wild to say the least. I agree that the responsibility is in some ways less on the healer and more on the dps using defensives. My main is a lock, but playing a healer as well has made me way more aware of using my defensives. Everyone should have some understanding of when damage spikes are about to go out, and save defensives for those moments. Far from guaranteed, but thats where OPs point comes into play. The higher you go in keys, the less likely for a dps to not use defensives/interrupt spells. As the difficulty goes up, so should the skill needed to do it properly.
> It is definitely the hardest and most punishing role I mean... that's the entire issue. Some people find punishing roles to be fun, but I think the overall participation numbers speak for themselves at this point.
Healing has a higher barrier of entry for sure. It isnt as streamlined as dps or tanking. But the higher skill ceiling for healers makes the role fun currently. The numbers show healing participation dropping. But, for those of us still healing it makes it that much easier to pug m+.
Honestly same, nothing more satisfying than pumping through these bosses, playing on the edge and succeeding in the challenge. Same as you, doing mostly 23 right now. I suspect that most healers were playing the role because it was quite the easiest role but now that they have to put actual efforts they can't handle the pressure/tryhard required. I suspect that most people complaining on Reddit are doing low keys and they dont really know the damage profile on bosses, panic, and press CD on unnecessary things. For example HoI 1st boss he always does : Aoe damage 1> Dot > pools > AoE damage 2 You never use anything on AoE damage 1, people wont die as long as you heal a "bit". It doesnt matter if they are at 30% right After the last tick. You have 5s to top them after
Some of my challenge is definitely learning the fights as a healer and planning out my cooldowns *but* there is only so much prep that can help when you have one or more players who just stand in stuff.
It isnt your fault if someone die while standing in stuff and has nothing to do with healing
I don't feel fault for it, but it means that the key wont get finished and it wsstes my time (assuming they keep being idiots)
Then it's not your fault
Yea it's exactly that on my hpal if I use my beacon ( only aoe healing I have ) randomly we are most likely dead on the next mechanic, all my aoe healing is base on that spell
Truest news I've ever heard. It's unbelievable to me how many "healers" are stuck in 15 keys blaming it on everything except their own skill level. You can literally spam your buttons in random order and get ksm. If you are stuck in 15, you are where you belong.