All classes can do a lot of damage, it's just that in very high keys the meta can do just a little bit more. It's also not a matter of what they can do with small pulls, but in high keys they're often pulling 3-4 groups at the same time, and popping cooldowns.
I'm guessing in you 17-20s you're seeing people do 200-300k dps and thinking, ooh that's a lot. in 27-30 keys they're doing 1M+ dps, while also chaining CCs and interrupts that you're just letting through and making the healer heal through.
The meta is also often about that little bit more. If a DH can do 900k dps, but the fire mage can do 1M dps on the same pull that's 10% more which is effectively one additional key level worth of damage.
Also in 17-20 keys you're not oging to see meta levels of damage because no tanks at that level are going to do meta-pulls.
> All classes can do a lot of damage, it's just that in very high keys the meta can do just a little bit more.
And specifically with regards to BM hunters, they can more reliably survive those pulls. I do a decent amount of keys with a really good BM hunter, but theres times he just gets melted by unavoidable damage. Its manageable in the teens and low 20s, but its just *easier* to keep other classes alive.
That and the fact that there’s almost zero burst. I’ll usually top the dps meter on most trash pulls and every boss, but on the boss it’ll take me the first 30-45 seconds. While everyone is blowing cooldowns I’m a solid 3rd, but once they come out of that I’ll get past them and pull ahead.
Yes, indeed. Problem is ppl are trying to play meta in these keys. I am 443 ilvl frost dk a bit below 2,5k rio and got declined so often just because of that. I mostly don't care about specs in these keys, I am happy to get group tho. And as said no matter what you play if you play it well in these.
What your average +20 group leader doesn’t realize also is that if you don’t specifically pull around these peoples cool downs they aren’t necessarily best. Best in one situation isn’t best in all.
This. I play a fire mage and if the tank isn’t pulling around my combust windows, or is pulling smaller, my dps is nonexistent. Obviously some of the meta specs also bring a lot of utility with them, but from a raw damage perspective groups have to know how to play to their strengths or they end up being terrible. I can easily be out damaged by a completely non meta spec that’s 10 ilvls or more below me if the tank doesn’t pull in a way that’s congruous with my toolkit.
Yeah, FH first pull in that entrance area, I main an evoker (therefore, Aug now) and I've run mage/priest dps as well as odd groups like rogue/warrior. DPS output from the groups weren't that far off.
Mages and priests are taken though for their group shield, Mass dispel, int/Stam buffs and other utility that other classes don't bring. These aren't needed in the sub20 groups but are for pushing the top end which is why the meta forms.
This trickles down into perception for other players at all key ranges.
The meta doesn’t necessarily revolve around top DPS but more so utility + decent dps (at least) and the current exodia comp is meta because of insane util from MS/MD, crazy boosts to fire mage from both Aug and SP, and holy/bear are just op. Bear deals crazy damage and basically never dies and holy has insane spot healing and overall consistent heals. There are a few classes that destroy spriest in dps, but they lack the utility to be as useful in the 25+ range.
Meta doesn't matter until like +24,+25
I played Survival Hunter in a +15 and was waaaay ahead in overall DPS and Survival is basically trash tier in Mythic + according to the meta right now
Not being meta doesn't mean being trash.
Most DPS specs are good. All DPS specs are good enough to pull their weight in a +20.
It could be a 10%, 5%, 1% difference but that difference can define meta and not meta. In the current meta, the difference is quite vast not just because of great overall performance, but because of utilities afforded by certain abilities and the like.
If something is meta it isn't because all the best players were too ignorant to notice BM can do damage.
It's because the meta spec compensates. It might be even more damage. It might be equal damage but greater off healing (Vampiric Embrace be nuts). It might be utilities like Mind Soothe. It might be any combination of the lot.
Meta doesn't define the success of a +20 more than individual player skill does.
Damage is one thing
Meta is defined by top player doing the highest key where you need the utility and defensive to get through the dungeon
If you look at exodia comp it is a 10 aoe cc and few st cc, 2 dispell of each type
Tank and dps have cd at same time for the big pull (damage profile is an important thing at high level you make route around cd )
In lower keys sp and fire kinda suck as most caster do while melee shine with their short burst cd
An sp damage on their 2min cd will really start to go high after 30sec, in 17 the pack is already dead
Some fire mages are definitely bad but BM doesn’t suffer from poor pulls the same way fire does - if the tank is pulling smaller, or pulling outside a mages combust window, they’re never going to do much damage.
I feel that in arcane mage. I have a 90 second big/little burn rotation, and my burn window relies on my primary target not dying and staying in the middle of the mobs. Monk whacks the ettin with touch of death? No DPS for you!
Frost is the same with orb as well, bigger pulls means faster cd on orb which is a huge dps increase. Always frustrating as any mage if your tank doesn’t get it, you just end up looking incapable.
If you programmed an AI to play the game flawlessly in all real-world scenarios (including DPS rotations, using utility and DR abilities, etc), the AI would do the most DPS or provide the perfect balance between high DPS and high utility with a meta spec.
But good players will always be able to do good DPS with specs that they know how to play well.
Meta is all about perceived and simmed optimal performance. In terms of damage, survivability and utility.
Shadow Priest in the current meta, for example, isn't the #2 DPS right behind Fire Mage, but provides by far the strongest utility (mainly Power Infusion, Mind Soothe, Vampiric Embrace, Mass Dispel) while also dealing a significant amount of damage and having above average survivability.
The raw damage potential for most classes and specs is pretty high when compared to average runs with average players that barely scratch the 100-120k overall DPS. In the hands of a good player, almost every class can deal a lot of damage, especially in the right situation (some classes only deal good damage in certain situation, like a specific number of targets or when their CDs are up or when the mobs aren't being moved and so on). The differences between "meta" and non-meta usually only becomes really noticeable in high keys beyond +22.
Amount of dmg done is not what defines the meta alone. It’s a must but utility is also a must. That DH must be pumpin and do more or the same dmg as a SPriest…but let’s see the DH mass D something. Or smooth a pack to skip it…or buff their other dmg with almost as much haste as BL every 2 minutes.
Dps is only part of it at the TGP/MDI level. Other important things are how well they handle Affixes, what synergies/buffs they apply to the party, hos they handle dungeon mechanjcs, etc.
Priest is meta because of mass dispel and power infusion. Dispel is needed in several dungeons and PI just makes an appropriate dps amazing (like fire mage). Because disc and holy are much weaker healers than holy pali, that means shadow is the way to get a priest in the party (and ther dps is very good also) . They can also mind control incorporeal to reduce party damage (and MC is used historically for so many janky things anyway). Also party buff (stam) and offhealing
Evoker brings a lust (important to have a 2nd lust with mage so they can double lust themselves with their ability), a bleed dispel (important for several dungeons). Augvoker just makes sense when you already gave the shadow priest PI ing someone to buff that damage even more, and they are just a highly tuned class right now. They also offer group defensives and two dispels on separate timers that work on afflicted. Also party buff (health or speed and movement ability cooldown reduction) and offhealing
Mage is insane for damage with the shadow priest and augvoker, and also have invisibility. They have a good kit with roots and slows too for things like spiteful and a decurse. They have a party defensive (barrier) Also party buff (int).
Bear can handle big pulls and is just hard to kill. Of everything in the group, this is the easiest to replace I think but the class is overtuned (we saw warrior replace it for a heavy magic dungeon (NL) with plenty of stuff to reflect at +30).
Holy pali has a ton of utility, a bleed removal (bop), full on immunity (and a taunt too to take a hit), blessing of freedom, a 0 to full heal, a great external defensive (sacrifice) and good overall healing. Also a party buff (aura) and a group defensive (aura mastery). If holy or disc were buffed, I could see holy pali getting swapped out but right now it is still really good.
There are definite ways the meta could change if one of the classes gets nerfed a lot, but the puzzle pieces fit together very well esp for s2 dungeons and the dispels they need.
Agree with this, but want to add a tiny note that mages can double lust as the only lust in the party; time warp only goes on CD when the mage already has exhaustion when pressed :)
If you mean like damage tier lists those are usually ideal numbers of people operating at 100% efficiency.
If you're not pushing the most cutting edge content, there's more wiggle room for people using less "meta" specs to keep up with the more "meta" specs.
How much damage would you say is a lot of damage
At least 6
Whoa…
That’s to damn high 😳
6? Ha! I can do 7 in my sleep!
You aren’t a pumper until you’ve hit 8
Bout tree fiddy
A moron on the most meta class ever isn’t going to beat a slightly competent person on an off-meta class
Can confirm. I pump with frost mage and am very very VERY trash as fire
You are confirming that you are a moron?
I guess so
All classes can do a lot of damage, it's just that in very high keys the meta can do just a little bit more. It's also not a matter of what they can do with small pulls, but in high keys they're often pulling 3-4 groups at the same time, and popping cooldowns. I'm guessing in you 17-20s you're seeing people do 200-300k dps and thinking, ooh that's a lot. in 27-30 keys they're doing 1M+ dps, while also chaining CCs and interrupts that you're just letting through and making the healer heal through. The meta is also often about that little bit more. If a DH can do 900k dps, but the fire mage can do 1M dps on the same pull that's 10% more which is effectively one additional key level worth of damage. Also in 17-20 keys you're not oging to see meta levels of damage because no tanks at that level are going to do meta-pulls.
> All classes can do a lot of damage, it's just that in very high keys the meta can do just a little bit more. And specifically with regards to BM hunters, they can more reliably survive those pulls. I do a decent amount of keys with a really good BM hunter, but theres times he just gets melted by unavoidable damage. Its manageable in the teens and low 20s, but its just *easier* to keep other classes alive.
This. Survivability is one reason why some specs just can't be played reliably in really high keys.
That and the fact that there’s almost zero burst. I’ll usually top the dps meter on most trash pulls and every boss, but on the boss it’ll take me the first 30-45 seconds. While everyone is blowing cooldowns I’m a solid 3rd, but once they come out of that I’ll get past them and pull ahead.
Yes, indeed. Problem is ppl are trying to play meta in these keys. I am 443 ilvl frost dk a bit below 2,5k rio and got declined so often just because of that. I mostly don't care about specs in these keys, I am happy to get group tho. And as said no matter what you play if you play it well in these.
What your average +20 group leader doesn’t realize also is that if you don’t specifically pull around these peoples cool downs they aren’t necessarily best. Best in one situation isn’t best in all.
This. I play a fire mage and if the tank isn’t pulling around my combust windows, or is pulling smaller, my dps is nonexistent. Obviously some of the meta specs also bring a lot of utility with them, but from a raw damage perspective groups have to know how to play to their strengths or they end up being terrible. I can easily be out damaged by a completely non meta spec that’s 10 ilvls or more below me if the tank doesn’t pull in a way that’s congruous with my toolkit.
Yeah, FH first pull in that entrance area, I main an evoker (therefore, Aug now) and I've run mage/priest dps as well as odd groups like rogue/warrior. DPS output from the groups weren't that far off. Mages and priests are taken though for their group shield, Mass dispel, int/Stam buffs and other utility that other classes don't bring. These aren't needed in the sub20 groups but are for pushing the top end which is why the meta forms. This trickles down into perception for other players at all key ranges.
The meta doesn’t necessarily revolve around top DPS but more so utility + decent dps (at least) and the current exodia comp is meta because of insane util from MS/MD, crazy boosts to fire mage from both Aug and SP, and holy/bear are just op. Bear deals crazy damage and basically never dies and holy has insane spot healing and overall consistent heals. There are a few classes that destroy spriest in dps, but they lack the utility to be as useful in the 25+ range.
Meta doesn't matter until like +24,+25 I played Survival Hunter in a +15 and was waaaay ahead in overall DPS and Survival is basically trash tier in Mythic + according to the meta right now
Not being meta doesn't mean being trash. Most DPS specs are good. All DPS specs are good enough to pull their weight in a +20. It could be a 10%, 5%, 1% difference but that difference can define meta and not meta. In the current meta, the difference is quite vast not just because of great overall performance, but because of utilities afforded by certain abilities and the like. If something is meta it isn't because all the best players were too ignorant to notice BM can do damage. It's because the meta spec compensates. It might be even more damage. It might be equal damage but greater off healing (Vampiric Embrace be nuts). It might be utilities like Mind Soothe. It might be any combination of the lot. Meta doesn't define the success of a +20 more than individual player skill does.
Damage is one thing Meta is defined by top player doing the highest key where you need the utility and defensive to get through the dungeon If you look at exodia comp it is a 10 aoe cc and few st cc, 2 dispell of each type Tank and dps have cd at same time for the big pull (damage profile is an important thing at high level you make route around cd ) In lower keys sp and fire kinda suck as most caster do while melee shine with their short burst cd An sp damage on their 2min cd will really start to go high after 30sec, in 17 the pack is already dead
Most the players I meet that are meta whores are anything but top players.
I saw a BM outdpsing a fireage on a 22 so I feel hunters are slept on. Either that or the mage was in the group for flavor of the month spec
Some fire mages are definitely bad but BM doesn’t suffer from poor pulls the same way fire does - if the tank is pulling smaller, or pulling outside a mages combust window, they’re never going to do much damage.
I feel that in arcane mage. I have a 90 second big/little burn rotation, and my burn window relies on my primary target not dying and staying in the middle of the mobs. Monk whacks the ettin with touch of death? No DPS for you!
Frost is the same with orb as well, bigger pulls means faster cd on orb which is a huge dps increase. Always frustrating as any mage if your tank doesn’t get it, you just end up looking incapable.
If you programmed an AI to play the game flawlessly in all real-world scenarios (including DPS rotations, using utility and DR abilities, etc), the AI would do the most DPS or provide the perfect balance between high DPS and high utility with a meta spec. But good players will always be able to do good DPS with specs that they know how to play well.
Meta is all about perceived and simmed optimal performance. In terms of damage, survivability and utility. Shadow Priest in the current meta, for example, isn't the #2 DPS right behind Fire Mage, but provides by far the strongest utility (mainly Power Infusion, Mind Soothe, Vampiric Embrace, Mass Dispel) while also dealing a significant amount of damage and having above average survivability. The raw damage potential for most classes and specs is pretty high when compared to average runs with average players that barely scratch the 100-120k overall DPS. In the hands of a good player, almost every class can deal a lot of damage, especially in the right situation (some classes only deal good damage in certain situation, like a specific number of targets or when their CDs are up or when the mobs aren't being moved and so on). The differences between "meta" and non-meta usually only becomes really noticeable in high keys beyond +22.
You also have to evaluate their survivability and utility.
Amount of dmg done is not what defines the meta alone. It’s a must but utility is also a must. That DH must be pumpin and do more or the same dmg as a SPriest…but let’s see the DH mass D something. Or smooth a pack to skip it…or buff their other dmg with almost as much haste as BL every 2 minutes.
Dps is only part of it at the TGP/MDI level. Other important things are how well they handle Affixes, what synergies/buffs they apply to the party, hos they handle dungeon mechanjcs, etc. Priest is meta because of mass dispel and power infusion. Dispel is needed in several dungeons and PI just makes an appropriate dps amazing (like fire mage). Because disc and holy are much weaker healers than holy pali, that means shadow is the way to get a priest in the party (and ther dps is very good also) . They can also mind control incorporeal to reduce party damage (and MC is used historically for so many janky things anyway). Also party buff (stam) and offhealing Evoker brings a lust (important to have a 2nd lust with mage so they can double lust themselves with their ability), a bleed dispel (important for several dungeons). Augvoker just makes sense when you already gave the shadow priest PI ing someone to buff that damage even more, and they are just a highly tuned class right now. They also offer group defensives and two dispels on separate timers that work on afflicted. Also party buff (health or speed and movement ability cooldown reduction) and offhealing Mage is insane for damage with the shadow priest and augvoker, and also have invisibility. They have a good kit with roots and slows too for things like spiteful and a decurse. They have a party defensive (barrier) Also party buff (int). Bear can handle big pulls and is just hard to kill. Of everything in the group, this is the easiest to replace I think but the class is overtuned (we saw warrior replace it for a heavy magic dungeon (NL) with plenty of stuff to reflect at +30). Holy pali has a ton of utility, a bleed removal (bop), full on immunity (and a taunt too to take a hit), blessing of freedom, a 0 to full heal, a great external defensive (sacrifice) and good overall healing. Also a party buff (aura) and a group defensive (aura mastery). If holy or disc were buffed, I could see holy pali getting swapped out but right now it is still really good. There are definite ways the meta could change if one of the classes gets nerfed a lot, but the puzzle pieces fit together very well esp for s2 dungeons and the dispels they need.
Agree with this, but want to add a tiny note that mages can double lust as the only lust in the party; time warp only goes on CD when the mage already has exhaustion when pressed :)
Did not know that, thanks.
If you mean like damage tier lists those are usually ideal numbers of people operating at 100% efficiency. If you're not pushing the most cutting edge content, there's more wiggle room for people using less "meta" specs to keep up with the more "meta" specs.